As a new year begins we should look at where we are with the struggle against Jihadi terrorism.

The Taj Mahal hotel in flames in Mumbai after the attack by Pakistani-trained LeT gunmen

Retrospectively, we can now see a pattern in the role of Pakistani based Jihadists and new potential threats to Australia.

Three Australians, Gareth McEvoy, Nathan Verity, and Craig Senger, were murdered in Jakarta on July 17 by al-Qaeda’s South East Asian franchise, Jemaah Islamiyah.

These attacks led the Indonesian authorities to track down, and kill, JI chief bomb expert Noordin Top.

One might have thought because of geographic proximity Indonesia and Jemaah Islamiyah would be the principal source of Jihadi danger. However in my opinion, the Mumbai attacks have a striking importance in the origin of terrorist threats to Australia, as many of the convictions for attempted terrorist attacks on Australia relate to the Pakistani Jihadi group, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) which was responsible for that attack.

In Mumbai, in November 2008, a group of ten terrorists, members of the Lashkar-e-Taiba, travelled by boat from Karachi to Mumbai. In a series of co-ordinated attacks across the city, they killed 166 civilians and security personnel. Many of those killed were Indian hotel and restaurant workers, including some Muslims. Among the dead were 29 foreign visitors. They included two Australians, Brett Taylor and Douglas Markell.

Lashkar-e-Taiba’s terrorists made a point of attacking Jewish targets. There are few Jews in Mumbai, but the terrorists gave Mumbai’s Chabad House, a Jewish outreach centre, special attention. They tortured and murdered Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his pregnant wife Rivkah Holtzberg, and six Jewish tourists.

The only attacker captured alive, 21-year-old Mohammed Ajmal Amir Kasab, has confirmed that he was a member of Lashkar-e-Taiba, recruited when he was 19 and trained a camp in Pakistani Kashmir by former Pakistani Army officers. The camp was under the protection of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), the Pakistani intelligence service. The ISI is seemingly not accountable to the Pakistani government and has a long record of promoting anti-India terrorist groups, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba, who have morphed into a wider threat.

Lashkar-e-Taiba is the Pakistani arm of the loose international network of Jihadi terrorist groups. They cooperate ideologically and operationally with al-Qaeda along with, Jamaah Islamiya in Indonesia, Al Shabab in Somalia and Al Qaida of the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) in Yemen. Apparently, reconnaissance work in Mumbai for last year’s attack, was done by the Pakistan-born American, David Headley (originally Daood Gilani)

He stayed in the Mumbai hotels which were the main targets of the attack. Posing as a Jew, he enjoyed the hospitality of the Mumbai Chabad House. Headley was arrested in Chicago in early October where information subsequently gained from Headley (Gilani), led to the arrest of two Lieutenant Colonels and a retired Major in the Pakistani armed services.

So far we have been spared a terrorist attack on Australian soil. But this is not something we can take for granted. Jihadi groups, particularly the Pakistani based LeT, have singled out Australia for attack. Our land-sea barrier and the vigilance of our security forces have seen these plans have been detected in time and their attacks thwarted.

There are several links, between Lashkar-e-Taiba and Australia. David Hicks trained with Lashkar-e-Taiba in Kashmir, according to his own testimony. Although many seem sympathetic to Hicks because of his incarceration in Guantanamo Bay, he told a fellow detainee of his desire to “go back to Australia and rob and kill Jews” and “crash a plane into a building.” Hicks has since served out his sentence, and there is no evidence of an ongoing relationship with LeT.

Faheem Khalid Lodhi, a Pakistani-Australian, was also trained by Lashkar-e-Taiba in Kashmir, along with the French LeT sleeper, Willie Brigitte. Together they planned attacks on the national electricity supply system and defence installations in Sydney. Lodhi was convicted by the NSW Supreme Court in 2006 and sentenced to 20 years imprisonment, with a 15 year non-parole period. Brigitte sits in a French jail.

Another person has been charged in Australia with connections to Lashkar-e-Taiba, but those charges were dropped after a court found prosecution evidence to be inadmissible. Most recently on October 15 last year, 5 men were convicted in Parramatta court on terrorism charges. Again, there was a Lashkar-e-Taiba connection, as one of those convicted trained at a LeT camp in Pakistan.

When our current anti-terrorism laws were introduced in 2004 and 2005, I and other Labor members were criticised for supporting them. I said then that I thought these laws were an unfortunate necessity.  In the wake of 9/11 and the Bali bombings we could no longer assume that Australia was immune from the threat of Islamist terrorism.

Of course we have had other recent terror convictions of local would-be Jihadists, like the Benbrika and the Al Shabab linked groups in Melbourne. But Lashkar-e-Taiba seems to have special interest in Australia, training individuals arrested and subsequently convicted by our courts.

The alleged connection of the Pakistani intelligence service the ISI - involving Headley’s link to the Pakistani officers pose a new dilemma for Australia. Part of the Pakistani state apparatus is connected with the terrorist group that has directly threatened Australia and murdered Australians. Australia has been lucky so far, but the good work of our security agencies alone may not protect us. Only continued vigilance, and the laws to make that vigilance effective, will do that.

We also need to be blunt with the Pakistanis - enough is enough.


- Michael Danby is the Member for Melbourne Ports and Chair of the Sub-committee on Foreign Affairs (JCFDAT).

62 comments

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    • stephen says:

      05:43am | 22/01/10

      I agree. I think Pakistan has been playing games with the Allies since 9/11.
      And speaking of 9/11, wasn’t Colin Powell dispatched immediately (underlined) to Pakistan by the then President George W Bush , to come up with some names (of the terrorists ) ‘or else’?

    • Jezza says:

      02:19pm | 22/01/10

      I agree. They need our money so feign friendship with the West but in their hearts they want us all us infidels wiped off the face of the planet. And for what….all because they think they own some faceless, unproven & unprovable god??? Crazy!!!

    • IT'S ALL IN THE GAME says:

      04:28pm | 22/01/10

      Clearly it is a matter of interest peddling and that is to say an act of crime in such a way as to orchestral playing of great finesse.
      Government in it’s game in which much subtly ands delicate manipulation is required to fine-tune the heat output.
      Bush has also make an attempt to win a trick with a card that is not a certain winner…..........Government play war game, citizens play true sport.  How does that work out like that???

    • Matt says:

      11:02am | 24/01/10

      Should probably tell Blackwater & the CIA to stop terrorism there too wink

    • John A Neve says:

      06:20am | 22/01/10

      Let’s get this right, we have had German, Irish, Arab terrorists, in fact you name a country and they have or have had terrorists. Those sitting on the other side of the fence call the patriots.

      Until governments address the cause, it will not stop. Robin Hood was a terrorist as was El Cid.

      Not all terrorists have the same target or cause, to lump them all together is a mistake and a costly one. Kill them, another will take their place, but I suppose that would address the over population issue.

    • war business says:

      04:32pm | 22/01/10

      How clever ah!  Terrorist is just another name of a business i.e. the business of war.  There is also some sort of kaffuffel somewhere, somehow….there must be money in it ah?

    • iansand says:

      07:34am | 22/01/10

      Whilstever we adopt a “we are right and you are wrong” stance terrorism will continue.  That stance is one of the things that breeds terrorism (along with a certain mad mindset).  I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know that it is not hauling ourselves onto our own moral high ground and issuing instructions and directives.

    • Andy says:

      12:38pm | 23/01/10

      You are right. Issuing instructions and directives is a waste of time. Dropping a bomb on a Pakistani army base, on the other hand, sends a clear signal that if they don’t clean up their sh!t, we will do it for them.

      When facing religious fanatics, there is no reasoning with them. The only way to stop them is to kill them all before they kill you. They do not think like you. They do not believe life is precious. They will kill you by any means available. I do not know why we even bother treating people like this with kids’ gloves.

    • Paul says:

      07:37am | 22/01/10

      You should have been criticised for supporting such paranoid anti-democratic unAustralian laws that lost your cause alot of Australian support, especially when there was only a kangaroo-court media trial for Hicks. Justice needed to appear to be done. We needed to have faith in our leaders integrity. And hence many of us presumed you too were blood-lusting bogus warmongers. And hypocrites: Australia (and the US) historically were big IRA fundraisers. Ned Kelly was our first terrorist when he engineered an unsuccessful ambush of 20-odd police coming on a train. Now the guy is a legend. We love ‘our’ terrorists too.

    • Dan says:

      10:15am | 23/01/10

      Absolutely. Danby, it’s not about being ‘sympathetic to Hicks because of his incarceration in Guantanamo Bay’, it’s about acknowledging that he was denied the rule of law, tried in a kangaroo court and tortured!

    • Sam says:

      07:57am | 22/01/10

      This issue is becoming a constant headache that makes me want to retreat into my own personal world, but it won’t go away even if I do that. Being of Arab descent and Muslim by birth, I feel it is somehow more part of my life than the average Joe. I think it’s partly why I married Chinese, because I don’t want the next generation of my branch of the tree to have to explain why we’re not terrorists or terrorist sympathisers just because my great grandfather’s name is Mohammad. To put it bluntly, this issue pisses me off, because I can see both sides and I can’t tell you that either side is 100% right with a straight face, although if we drill down to the act of murdering innocent people then I’m 99% against that, but not 100%.

      On one side of the fence, you’ve got the power, the intelligence, the righteousness and the apathy. On the other side, you’ve got desperation, frustration, ignorance, self-righteousness, and the height of pluralistic world views that Islam espoused to be. Oh that’s another thing, please don’t tell me that religion has nothing to do with it. In the Middle East, going out the back and taking a bog has religious undertones, and I’m sure your local imam will tell you which hand to use for scratching your arse and shooing away flies.

      I’ll leave the economics and politics to the more seasoned experts, but I’ll give you the religious side… the Quran is an anti-semetic text that should be made illegal in its current form. Everything it says about how to be a better person is negated by the small number of passages that unjustifiably vilify Jews and other “non-believers”. It is a weakness on the part of our governments to allow this text to be “studied” and used to brain wash people all over the world. I’ve got nothing against brain washing for children, but it is being used to engrave into the young minds of Muslim children that if there is only one thing worthy of your hatred, it is Jews. If I was an Israeli soldier and I came across an adult with such a mentality, I’d shoot, then spend a couple of seconds feeling sorry for the ignorant bastard. On the other hand, if the rest of the world really wants a more civilised Middle East, well they wouldn’t have left the place in the state it’s in post colonialisation. So, it’s really just your typical tit for tat international power struggle played out over centuries and it looks like terrorism is here to stay and even if we knew the solution it wouldn’t make a difference because it can be handy to have a little terrorism that you can use to justify wars and economic sanctions and even purely to limit the advancement of a particular group (eg. the North Koreans).

      My God it must be Friday again.

    • yas says:

      08:56am | 22/01/10

      Sam, you make some excellent points, particularly in regards to the differences between the two sides and how they are perceived and misunderstood. personally, i’ve always had a deep fascination with texts that have profound impacts on the human psyche or even its course throughout time. These include the bible, the Kama Sutra, the Qur’an, the Satanic Verses, Shakespeare’s poetry, the writings of Homer, mien kumpf (sorry if i don’t spell all of them correctly) ect. ect. I’ve read all of them and studied them throughly, and here lies my disagreement with your post; Censorship of a particular text will not reduce it’s influence or dilute the fanatic philosophies it may have inspired; conversely, the banning of a text often results into its elevation to a cult like phenomenon and an increased curiosity about its power. The Qur’an says many thing about allot of people, as do the old and new testaments, as does “the Merchant of Venice” or even Bizet’s “Carmen” about Jews, Muslims, ancient Egyptians, women and so on… we can’t just ban something because of the ideas it may inspire, but we can try to understand the root causes of why what is happening (ie, terrorism, antisemitism) continues to occur. 
      in the case of Pakistan, it is a country that suffers a great deal of hardships most of us rarely hear about. It has a population of over 100 million people, a large number of which are poor, live in the provinces and happen to be illiterate. it is a country that has suffered from political corruption, assassinations and terrorism for decades without anyone taking notice. it may have the a great deal of natural resources as means by which to tackle its issues of poverty and unemployment but the development of infrastructure is slow and the country has suffered a great deal of debilitating conflicts. to top it off, it’s a nuclear power! instead of saying something like “enough is enough Pakistan, get your act together” i think countries like the US should spend less time investing in futile air strikes on innocent villagers in the faint hope that they might eventually kill bin laden by accident and instead invest those billions in addressing the country’s underlying issues.  Before anyone says “where will it stop? now we have to pay for their schools and hospitals too?” they should look at previous examples of abandonment by the west that resulted in terrorist groups taking advantage of desperation and becoming legitimate governments. one is Lebanon; when the whole world forgot about it and its suffering of civil conflicts (where post colonial issues played a huge part) for decades, Hezbollah waltzed in, built hospitals and schools, established order and provided a promise of protection and defense. there are many other examples where western colonial powers make their terrorists, then punish them.
      i suppose it is handy when you need to justify unnecessary wars (Vietnam or Iraq anyone?) or economic sanction (Iran, Iraq, North Korea) or even making money from the development and sale of weaponry (the contra affair, Saudi Arabian arms deals).

      thank goodness it’s Friday!

    • Sam says:

      09:27am | 22/01/10

      @yas,

      “we can’t just ban something because of the ideas it may inspire, but we can try to understand the root causes of why what is happening (ie, terrorism, antisemitism) continues to occur.”

      Strongly disagree. It happens because of the Qur’an. There are millions of poor people in neighbouring India where the infrastructure is hardly coping, but the mentalities of Hindus (if I can generalise for the sake of simplicity - I know there are thousands of religions in India) is not so fundamentally skewed against Jews. Being poor and feeling frustrated happens even in Manhattan, but blaming others (especially “Jews” - as if they are to blame for everything!) is purely an effect of Quranic education.

      You should know that the Qur’an is anti Jewish in much the same way as the Hamas charter is anti Israel. If it wasn’t for the freedom of religion implied in our constitution, and if you could understand that religion cannot be separated from politics in the Middle East (at least not at this point in time), you would realise that the Quran is a call to war against Jews for time everlasting.

      You can ban it, but you’re putting it in the too hard basket. You could simply edit it to reflect modern attitudes towards Jews just as the Vatican has amended its views regarding who’s to blame for the crucifixion of Jesus, but again that’s just too hard. So the problem, and more specifically the *root* of the problem will not go away.

      I mentioned this in a synagogue and was told that there are “problematic texts” on both sides, and everyone seems happy to overlook the fact that the Quran vilifies Jews in particular. I don’t know, some people don’t get it, some people don’t want to get it. Thank God it’s Friday indeed.

    • yas says:

      10:12am | 22/01/10

      @Sam, in regards to your point about religion and politics being one and the same in the middle east, i agree with you entirely. having lived in Iran, Iraq and Lebanon it’s one of the tougher hurdles to over come. in that sense, a great deal of antisemitic sentiment can be attributed to the Qur’an, but i dare say Israel and US foreign policy are not too helpful…

      though a lot is being said about terrorism motivated by fundamentalist Islamic philosophies, perhaps inspired by antisemitic sentiment in certain texts, it should also be noted that this is not the only kind of terrorism out there. i think looking at the common denominator of terrorism (poverty, lack of education, the failings of society, unemployed impressionable youth ect ect)  would allow us to better understand the concept and find a solution which is more potentially affective than current methodologies.

    • Sam says:

      10:49am | 22/01/10

      @yas, thanks for your posts, I appreciate them and your wholistic rational outlook on the topic… but (and there had to be a “but”) you don’t kill a snake by chopping away at it’s tail, you must go for the head. You don’t want to give “these people” (of which I was one of) better economic infrastructure only to have them retain their anti-semitic attitudes. Give them an inch and they’ll want a mile, believe me you’re dealing with the very definition of evil (according to Socrates) which is ignorance. Don’t be too nice for your own good.

    • stephen says:

      11:18pm | 22/01/10

      So, does that mean you disrespect History, or Culture ?
      You have to make a choice, yer know.

    • ChrisG says:

      08:21am | 22/01/10

      Michael, I am reminded of the Team America clip on The Punch recently about Hans Blix threatening the North Korean leader with an angry letter - your piece is a little light on what exactly should we do to persuade or coerce the Pakistani political and military elite to change its ways. The reality is, there is a decades long struggle to be had for good governance in Pakistan, changed tribal dynamics in the territories on its borders, victory of non-Islamists in the Pakistani military and intelligence, and military defeat of al-Qaeda.

      What Australia can practically contribute, other than its SAS support in Afghanistan (and maybe anti-terrorist slogans at cricket matches telecast into Pakistan!) is not clear. One key issue for us should be real support for moderate Islamic leadership and programs in the South and South East Asian regions.

      As for a couple of responses to your piece – it’s naïve and historically ignorant to equate al-Qaeda with Ned Kelly, or even the Irish or German terrorists of the past. I won’t even address the Kelly analogy, as that’s laughable. The Irish were focused on a narrow national objective. The German terrorists were alienated members of the middle and upper classes with no sustainable program and posing no real systemic threat.

      The current threat – as Mike Danby knows, as a consistent voice in this area of politics – mixes an international ideological struggle with the threat of access to weapons of mass destruction. That is the worry we should all have with Pakistan.

    • John A Neve says:

      08:38am | 22/01/10

      ChrisG @ 0921hrs,
      seeing as you have a wide knowledge of the terrorist issues ! Perhaps you can tell us all what the terrorist want? Based on your post, they all want the same thing !!

      I would suggest the only difference between the “terrorists” of the past and those of today, is the fact that they did not have access to WMD in their time.

    • Eliza says:

      08:25am | 22/01/10

      “Hicks has since served out his sentence, and there is no evidence of an ongoing relationship with LeT.”

      Why do I get the sense this sentence was inserted by subs in order to avoid the possibility of defamation?

      What a horrible inflammatory and hysterical piece.

    • AdamC says:

      09:34am | 22/01/10

      Even if your assertion is true, and I don’t concede that it is, how does it help address the problem, Fool me Once?

    • BT says:

      10:37am | 22/01/10

      I totally agree - in fact most of the Third World’s worsening poverty and subsequent desperation evidenced by the rise in terrorism and fundamentalist religion is due to the US and their further influence over the World Bank, IMF etc. Disguised as “foreign aid” they create debt and policy to benefit their interests and plunder the resources of underdeveloped nations, displacing millions and furthering the desperate plight of these so called developmental refugees. The luxury lifestyles we in the First World are shameful when you look at the actual human and environment cost it takes to maintain them.

    • fool me once says:

      11:06am | 22/01/10

      and bin laden is dead and gone ages ago too, common sense says that, but the fbi releases an amateur photo recently to show what hed likely look like now, to perpetuate the myth, and keep the fear..

      but you dont have to believe that either if you dont want to..but theres plenty of proof of usa interference worldwide in other countries affairs, for decades, thats irrefutable..  http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
      american lies and interference, all over the world,is why the “terrorists” are wanting to take our freedoms!??? all they really want though, is for the american terrorists to leave their countries, and leave them alone. 

      an american general said himself, last year, that he didnt think there was any more than 100 “al quadea” left in afghanistan, apparently theyve all gone to pakistan now, or yemen, or wherever the usa wants to be next, but obama still thought that he needed an extra 30,000 troops to defeat them..  sigh..  whatever

      my point is, i dont believe anything im told by the gov, or this writer, as far as terrorism goes, even the official 911 story is so full of holes, youd have to believe in fairy tales to give that any credence, and i dont agree with their methods that supposedly keep us safer. scanners @ airports? pffft, why not shopping centres too, footy stadiums.. or is that next..

      the only reason australia would be a target for anyone, is our continued meekness in regard to blindly following the usa into their illegal wars of aggression.  i dont care if they are our supposed allies, thats no excuse not do the right thing.  anyway, the usa is killing scores of innocents in pakistan now with their drones, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

      the problem is of our own making.  the solution i say, is obvious. stop doing what we’re doing. but thats me. youre entitled to believe what you want, but im over all this terror clap trap.

    • Ricky says:

      04:48pm | 22/01/10

      Thats right.Its always ways Americas fault.What bullshit.For all their problems, the world would be a lot more unstable & scary without America to keep the Nth korea’s & Chinas of our world sensible.Pull your heads out of your a*ses & open your eyes….

    • Andy says:

      12:47pm | 23/01/10

      No, Fool Me Once. You won’t believe anything anyone says because it is against your religion to do so. Isn’t it so convinient that everything that you won’t believe (or rather, you believe to be a massive conspiracy) is opposed to your views? It is like trying to convince a born-again Christian that no, it wasn’t God who pulled the kid out of the fire, it was the floor collapsing. Or a Muslim that no, it wasn’t the fault of the soldiers that they shot the kid. It was the frakking terrorist hiding behind the kid who should not be there or be using the kid as a human shield to begin with.

      There are more religions than Islam, Christianity, Climate Change, Hinduism and the like. You are living proof.

    • ChrisG says:

      09:22am | 22/01/10

      John A Neve – a common theme for terrorists is use of violence against civilians to generate terror to force adoption of their political demands. Martyrdom for the cause – tending towards a fascist glorification of violence – is a common element. Terrorist leadership is always undemocratic in its refusal to rely on public political dialogue and change through the ballot box.

      Terrorist leaders rely on religious (broad sense) dynamics to push their followers – an apocalyptic prognosis of the resistance to their eschatological view of what the world should be like. The leaders of al-Qaeda and Hezbollah are quintessential terrorist organisations in this regard, and unfortunately I think we have the embodiment, potentially, of this leadership in Ahmadinejad in Iran – which is why his control of Iran is so worrying.

      A defining aspect of the current Jihadist terrorism threat is its potential access to weapons of mass destruction, as I noted. It also combines, though, multiple sites across a potential recruitment ground in the tens of millions, and potential capture of weak or failed states – the original situation in Afghanistan, and now potentially in Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan. It has the characteristics, in that regard, of the cold war against communism in the second half of the 20th century.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:58am | 22/01/10

      Chris G @1022hrs,
      Your response is only about one aspect of terrorism. Even then it is not correct, you say, “Terrorist leadership is always undemocratic” !! I would suggest many if not all terrorist leaders are elected by their followers.

      You talk of “Terrorist leaders relying on religious (broad sense) dynamics to push their followers”. Isn’t that true of all politicians?

      In you whole post you fail to address why we have terrorism and as I said right at the start, unless we address the why, we will never be free of terrorists.

    • Eric says:

      11:09pm | 23/01/10

      The cause is Islam,  as you well know, John.

      Your constant denial does not change the facts.

    • John A Neve says:

      11:50am | 24/01/10

      Eric @ 1209hrs,
      Your comment, as always, defies any logic. Tell me are you a product of the Holy Wars?

    • Don says:

      09:44am | 22/01/10

      Easy to say. But how do you do it, Michael? That’s the real question.

    • wolf says:

      10:30am | 22/01/10

      Others have pointed out how narrow in scope your article is, and how it focuses on one particular country and faith when the whole issue is bigger than that.  So I wont address that.
      What I want to know Michael, is if there is any particular reason, perhaps to do with your personal beliefs, which may colour your opinion on this topic?  Something which you have not declared openly in the article?
      Once you answer that, lets talk about other places where people can be persecuted for their beliefs, like palestine.

    • ChrisG says:

      11:11am | 22/01/10

      Wolf, Mike Danby is a consistent champion of human rights generally - note his role in supporting public understanding for Tibet.

      The problem you have, are not willing to admit openly, but want to raise, is that Mike is Jewish, and so you imply bias and misdirect to the issue of ‘palestine’.

      Of course, the issue of whether Pakistan is adequately attacking terrorism is separate from the politics of the Palestinian cause and you should be able to argue about it on its merits. But I don’t want to let your attempt at misdirection be compounded by a false claim - the only evidence anyone is persecuted in the West Bank or Gaza for their beliefs relates to internecine attacks by Hamas and Fatah against each other. Civilian casualties in efforts by Israel to deal with terrorist attacks against its people and against its existence do not constitute ‘persecution for belief’ no matter how exaggerated.

    • wolf says:

      12:25pm | 22/01/10

      Chris I have no problem with Mike being jewish, however given his past strong statements (and not to mention actions) in relation to Israel/Palestine and the highly emotive use of language in this article it is something that the reader needs to be aware of.
      To give you a sample there is an excellent rebuttal of some of those who he has criticised under parliamentary priviledge here, as well as some of the community spirit he has shown in the past: http://newmatilda.com/2009/07/07/if-you-dont-agree-us-youre-antisemitic
      http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/08/28/danby-threatens-la-trobe-university-over-gaza-money/
      Yes there are problems in Pakistan, but there are problems with any religious or quasi religious state which can generate terrorists.  This includes Israel.
      You cannot single out any one of these countries in an attempt to address our security, without looking at the greater problem.
      Pakistan has become unstable of late, due in no small part to our efforts to ‘fight terrorism’ which have pushed the conflict within Pakistans border, and at times have made a civil war a real possibility. Drone strikes from 3rd party nations which take out civilians as well as ‘terrorists’ are not making the governments job any easier.  To single out Pakistan and demand that they ‘do more’ without making similar demands on other states, or offering them a way to help you help them is unfair.
      As an aside I appreciate your attempt at justifying civilian casualties, but I would suggest that at times Israels actions in Palestine could fall under the category of ‘collective punishment’ which does constitute being persecuted.

    • John A Neve says:

      12:58pm | 22/01/10

      Wolf @ 1130hrs,
      You are wasting your time debating ChrisG, he just walks away from debate if he’s loosing. Come on Chris show us what you’ve got, that’s if you have anything to show other than rhetoric.

    • AdamC says:

      02:07pm | 22/01/10

      Wait, wolf, so because of the ‘strong language’ in his article and (public) comments Danby has made about the Arab/Isreali conflict, he should declare that he is Jewish? Oh, please.

      Your comment should have been precluded by the moderator. It seems like classic anti-seminitism to me.

      Mind you, I do agree that the rulers of the Palestinian territories, Hamas and Fatah, do persecute people for their beliefs quite often.

    • Jinnah says:

      10:57am | 22/01/10

      @Sam says:10:27am | 22/01/10

      Sam blaming the current problem of Islamic extremism solely upon the Quarn is a highly simplistic evaluation of the sources of terrorism. Anti-semitism has effected many religious societies throughout time. The great majority of Europeans were once deeply anti-semitic and you might recall that the Germans managed to kill about one third of the entire Jewish population. There was not something necessarily “evil” about Germans per se, just that they were overcome by an evil ideology. Much the same has happened today in the Islamic world, but it is best to remember that only a very very small fraction of Islamic society shares in the kind of Tikfari ideology of Al Qadea and other global jihadist groups.

    • Andy says:

      12:59pm | 23/01/10

      And yet, how many openly condemn these jihadists? How many imams speak fire and brimstone against these terrorists? As for education, how many Muslims, even here in Australia, are asking for Islamic schools? Did you stand against such nonsense, which is nothing more than a school of indoctrination?

      This is not only in Australia. New Zealand has its share of Islamic schools. As do France, Holland, Denmark and the like. Look where it got them? In Malaysia, the Malays (Muslims, all) used to be the most open and friendly people. They would sit with you in a Chinese restaurant and talk and generally have fun. Oh, they won’t eat the pork or drink any alcohol, as their religion prohibits, but they were willing to party within those limits. How many Malays do you think will be caugt dead in a Chinese restaurants these days? Funnily enough, the seggregation started happening when the Pakistanis built an Islamic college in Malaysia and started working in Malaysia as teachers en massed back in the 70s.

      Why were there no uproar against this form of Islam? Why was this form of Islam not ignored? Could it be because the bloody Quran justifies this sort of nonsense? Could it be because Muslims, because of their religion, agree with this philosophy that gave rise to terrorism and a blind hatred of the “West”?

      When a philosophy declares that life is cheap and that wanton killing is justified, that philosophy should be eradicated. Islam falls into this category. Why should non-Muslims be expected to play by the rules if Islam won’t? In my opinion, to do so is lunacy. Spare me the convinient morality of “falling to their level”. Morality is useless if you are dead.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:19am | 22/01/10

      “laws to make that vigilance effective”. I hope you don’t mean more erosion of our liberties. Freedom comes at a price and sometimes it is the ultimate price. We are fighting the wrong war. The war should be against religion. All religion.
      Indoctrinating and brainwashing minors with religious garbage by lunatics should be condemned.

    • Sam says:

      11:30am | 22/01/10

      @Jinnah,

      (1) Anti-semitism is not part and parsel of religious societies as you seem to believe. It is found only among Christians and Muslims, two religions who ironically owe their very existence and any inherent substance to Judaism. It stinks of ungratefulness and jealousy if you ask me. I can elaborate if necessary.

      (2) To blame the Quran is what nobody else seems brave enough to do. It’s not simplistic, it’s the hardest thing to admit for a Muslim. Blaming poverty and lack of education and the failure of society is the simplistic view. Iran is a great country with a highly educated population, no shortage of money and a vibrant family focused society, so why the antisemitism there? For a Muslim, it is nothing unusual to blame Jews for anything. Rational is not required when discussing Jews and Jewish affairs, and there’s no Al-Qaeda in Iran (or is there? aha - interesting).

      (3) The Islamic world hasn’t been overcome by Al Qaeda’s ideology. Each independent terrorist cell is doing their own bit of jihad without any push from Bin Laden himself. Muslims are really like brothers, and when you attack one, there’s no telling who’s going to avenge who. There is no place for a centralised ideology department. It’s simple, you attack one of us, we’ll get you sometime between (time = now) and (time = infinity).

      (4) if completely separate groups of terrorists single our Jews and Jewish interests (which could be expanded to American interests), then why would you believe that they have somehow decided to target these after conducting some sort of a conference at a central location, when the simple fact is that the book they carry with them everywhere they go tells them who to target (and they’ve memorised it since they were 6 years old).

    • Dan says:

      10:22am | 23/01/10

      Sam, if you want to blame the Quan, then why don’t you blame the New Testemant considering all of the crimes that Christians have committed! As for Christian supporters not flying planes into buildings, you do realise that there have been plenty of non-Muslim terrorists?! (Oklahoma, IRA, Tamill Tigers etc…)


      Danby, “When our current anti-terrorism laws were introduced in 2004 and 2005, I and other Labor members were criticised for supporting them. I said then that I thought these laws were an unfortunate necessity” You absolutely should be criticised! Those laws were disgisting and there is no evidence that they were needed!

    • Andy says:

      01:06pm | 23/01/10

      Dan, The NT doesn’t ask for Christians to kill people. The Quran does. Big difference.

      Also, you try to tie in terrorism to Christianity as though it excuses Islamic terrorism. Stupid move because most thinking people can see right through your drivel.

      Oklahoma was done by a mentally unstable idiot of no religious denomination. It was hardly an act of terrorism, any more than a guy who picks up a gun and goes on a shooting spree is a terrorist.

      The IRA did not wage a religious war. It was a political one.

      The Tamil Tigers were not fighing in the name of their religion. They were fighting for secession.

      Islam is the only one who wages terrorist campaigns in name of their religion, justified by the terrorist getting 72 fat, ugly MALE virgins in heaven. Islam is a religion of the selfish. So long as they get a reward, Muslims do not care if anyoe else gets hurt. The 72 virgins proves this. And if you go back to th first Muslim, his actions regarding Ayesha proves his selfishness beyond reasonable doubt. “It is the will of Allah.”

    • T,Chong says:

      11:38am | 22/01/10

      ChrisG 12:11 Your correct.Religion is irrevalant.The palestinians suffer because they are Palestinians. Road blocks, Israeli assasinations, collective punisments, power outs, no infrastruture developement etc the list goes on .How can anyone support Israels suppression.? It is amoral.
      Danby a champ of human rights, as long as they are not Palestinians.

    • Sam says:

      12:10pm | 22/01/10

      Yes the Palestinians suffer because they’re Palestinians who want to liberate “palestine” from the Jewish “occupier” (btw, that means murder any Jews who are between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean coast), but all the victims of terrorism that has been attributed to Al Qaeda or Al Qaeda’s affiliates suffer because the Palestinians happen to be Muslim. If the Palestinians were Christian, their supporters probably wouldn’t fly planes into skyscrapers thousands of kilometers away, would they? You have to be human to deserve human rights, and there’s little humanity in the occupied territories. It’s a war zone where the POWs are refusing to surrender even though they have no more weapons with which to put up a good fight. Why don’t they just ask Jordan to take them? or better still, why don’t they just accept what they have left and build from there rather than incite a well equipped army like the IDF with sticks and stones.

      The Israelis have displaced the Palestinians, but that’s because the Europeans displaced the Jews. That was 70 years ago, there’s no going back, only forward from here and Israel is here to stay this time. Human rights will be afforded to Palestinians when they prove themselves worthy of good relations with their neighbour (who until then will remain in control). Afterall, provide them with an ambulance and they are likely to use it to smuggle explosive chemicals. Security first, human rights will surely follow.

    • Andy says:

      01:13pm | 23/01/10

      Sam, that is incorrect. The Israelis did not displace the Palestinians. The Palestinians left at the urgings of the armies of Arabia, Lebenon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan back in 1949 so that they would not get caught in the crossfire (I need not tell you of what, do I?). There were some that stayed behind to help defend their land. They are now called Arab-Israelis. The Palestinians who left were herded into refugee camps in Syria and Jordan. Even their own Muslim brothers refused to truly take them in. They are still there today.

      Jordan has also suffered Palstinian uprisings to the point that the Jordanians do not want any more Palestinians on their soil. That is why that route is cut of for them.

      Remember, in Islam: Me against my brother. My brother and I against the world. Morality is a moot point. It doesn’t matter if you have raped, murdered, robbed, beat up someone, etc. As long as you are Muslim, all Muslims will support you unconditionally. Did the pack rapes of the girls in Sydney a few years ago not ring any alarm bells for anyone? Especially what their fellow Muslims said in their defence?

    • Jinnah says:

      12:17pm | 22/01/10

      @Sam says
      Sam I do not mean to say that anti-semitism is part and parcel of religious societies, just to say that it is not the sole preserve of Muslim societies as you have implied. And I think that this is where the whole “Islam is evil” thesis breaks down. People of all religions have used religious texts and beliefs to rally people against an so-called “religious enemy”, including Christians, Hindu’s and Buddhists. If the Quran is the real reason behind the current period of Islamic radicalism, than by implication the Bible has been the greatest violence inciting document in history. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but if you can find one serious terrorist expert who agrees with your view I would be very surprised indeed. I don’t think that for a second that anyone is “afraid” to lay the blame on the Quarn, they are just a little to intelligent to arrive at such a weak conclusion. Something as complex as terrorism defies mono-casual explanations such as yours. Religion is an important factor but a very wide range of forces have influenced the rise of Islamic terrorism, such as socio-economic factors, history, demography, culture and percieved injustices. Moreover, treating Islam as a monolithic bloc fails to consider the deep diferences between Islamic societies. Few Muslims support the call to Jihad and almost all that do come from one branch of the religion, Whabism. To demonise all Muslims is a very poor response to dealing with Islamic terrorism and will only worsen the problem. If you really want to understand modern terrorism and how the world should go about defeating it do yourself a favour and check out “The Accidental Guerrilla” by David Kilkullen. Its the best book out on the subject and is written by a guy with a lot of first hand experience.

    • Andy says:

      01:16pm | 23/01/10

      There is a way of stopping terrorism, Jinnah. It involves things that we are too weak to comtemplate any more, but one that I feel would eventually make a come back as the threat of Islamic terrorism continue to rise. Whether that is soon enough is open to debate.

    • Jon says:

      12:40pm | 22/01/10

      ‘God is a thought who makes crooked all that is straight’ -
      Nietzsche

    • watto says:

      12:59pm | 22/01/10

      Wars are usually started by those that profit from them. And this “war on terror” has been a very profitable one for the likes of Halliburton and others of Bush mates. War is terrorism. Take your bad attitudes and wonky religons overseas and leave us in peace. So we can get drunk and enjoy Austraalia!

    • davido says:

      01:10pm | 22/01/10

      Lots of heat, some light BUT not many SOLUTIONS in these comments.

      Pakistan is in a hard spot. Remember it is bordering Afghanistan on one side. A failed society that must be terribly hard to live with. And on the other side is India with it’s endless heckling, showmanship and border hostilities. It also borders Iran and China.

      So far the government has made significant progress in fighting terrorism when you consider how jaded the population is. If India didn’t keep giving them a hard time it might be a bit easier to get on with fighting terrorism. A substantial amount of Pakistani resources go to handling the ever aggressive and rabidly nationalistic Indian army.

      In any event the solution, in the long run, to terrorism is to win over the hearts and minds of the people. Can we really afford to alienate yet another country?

    • LET'S CLEAR THE AIR says:

      03:04pm | 22/01/10

      WHAT REALLY IS THE NATURE OF TERRORISM?

      More than five years after the cataclysm of September 11, 2001, the terrorist threat has become more varied, complicated and difficult to understand than perhaps at any time in memory. The United States faces an array of different kinds of terrorist threats, some of which are related, some of which are not. Some are extraordinarily dangerous; others pose a risk on a much smaller scale. Some are genuinely global; others are purely local, others still reach beyond their countries of origin but are better characterized as more or less regional.

      This alone must induce you all to be asking questions such as, “what is terrorism and what basis does it qualify to warrant such a name as, ‘terrorist’ or ‘terrorism’.  Clearly, they are just mass murderers and cowards at that anyway you look at it.

      Indeed we are understandably confused by the panoply of forms this security threat takes. Moreover, confusion about forms and the irregular incidence of successful terrorist attack causes further uncertainty about the dimensions of the threat. Indeed, for Americans who are not living in Iraq, the actuarial tables do not show much of change regarding the likelihood of dying in a terrorist act—even factoring in September 11. Yet in my view, the potential for a devastating attack or series of attacks and for grave damage to American interests remains. For these reasons, it is imperative that legislators and policymakers do their utmost to clear away some of the misunderstandings that inevitably cloud this subject.

    • Sri says:

      03:37pm | 22/01/10

      davido…***If India didn’t keep giving them a hard time it might be a bit easier to get on with fighting terrorism***

      India giving Pakistan a hard time? It’s the 1st time heard this and took me by great susprise. Pardon my ignorance but can you please explain how and why india’s hassling Pakistan? Is it India that sent it’s soldiers posed as infiltrators to Pakistan in the 90’s and then disowned them after they lost the war? Is it India that sent terrosists to a pakistani city recently with orders to shoot at will against one and all? Is it in India that any terrorist captured anywhere in the world has links to?

    • Davido says:

      09:01pm | 25/01/10

      Yes Sri… a hard time. India needs to stop pretending it is the victim all the time.

      In the twelve months up to Mumbai there were 13 terrorist acts in India (there may be more of that I am not aware of). ALL of these were perpetrated by Indian terrorists. Born and Bred in India.

      Your opinion is welcome but I hope it is not biased or insular like the Indian press. I notice that not one Bangalore based paper has put Haiti on the front page. Yet another example of India living in it’s own little world of make believe.

    • Jezza says:

      02:35pm | 22/01/10

      I think we need to get things straight about Israel before we go any further. The Jews were the original inhabitants of Israel but were kicked out by the Moslems. It was only after the 2nd WW that the Jews were given their country back. Israel is the holy land….....& as much as the Moslems complain about their rights to the holy land the truth is that their holy land is where Mecca is & that’s Saudi Arabia. I am not a Jew. In fact I don’t beleive in god. OOOoooAAAaahhhhh!!

    • ChrisJ says:

      12:34am | 25/01/10

      I believe Jezza is believing the propoganda and false history spread to justify zionist   apartheid and land theft.  There are tens of thousands of Muslims living in Iran despite strong efforts by Israel to frighten them into moving to Israel “to make up numbers” and displace those who have lived in peace with Jews for two thousand years before the creation of zionism, a root cause to much of the terrorism in the ME from both fanatical religious groups of oppressed and government oppressors.

    • TB says:

      05:41pm | 22/01/10

      Odd how no mention is made on the effect the war in Afghanistan has had upon Pakistan. The instability we are seeing in Pakistan these days is the direct result of the Afghan conflict - Afghan insurgents are dancing back and forth across the border, and US military forays into Pakistan have been (predictably) heavy-handed (resulting in what is delightfully called “collateral damage”) and are simply exacerbating matters.

    • ChrisG says:

      07:26pm | 22/01/10

      Wolf, Pakistan is not unstable because of drone strikes. Its elite have never been really committed to establishing a democratic state. It is weak because of a history of military coups and corruption. It has dabbled in the great geostrategic regional game by having a bet each way on Islamic extremists, and now is trying to roll back the monster that threatens to consume its master. What is going on in the Palestinian territories has little to do with an analysis of Pakistan.

      John A Neve, I’ve been at my real day job, but
      happy to continue the discussion. You ask the question about the causes of terrorism. It is people who decide to pursue evil strategies for power. The Tibetans do not go around terrorising the transnational Chinese community because of their occupation and exploitation. Many communities face poverty and injustice, but their political leaders do not choose to kill innocent people as a means to leverage change. Most Muslims do not accept such excuses by the fanatics who claim to be pursuing the creation of national and regional theocratic caliphates under their control. And whilst most politicians rely on emotions to motivate followers, they do not go to the extreme of persuading their followers to kill apostates and opponents in their name.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:38am | 23/01/10

      ChrisG @ 0826hrs, yesterday.
      Sorry but once again you have dodged the question !! The tactics used is not the “cause” it’s their method. I ask again, in your view what’s the cause?
      To cite Tibetans is a furphy, their very way of life is opposed to violence. I repeat NOT ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS, how one eyed can you be?
      As to suggesting “politicians do not go to the extreme of persuading their followers to kill !!!  Just what planet are you living on Chris?

    • ChrisJ says:

      11:13am | 23/01/10

      What is terrorism is a legitimate question. Is it only that violence as defined by governments which excuses their own actions and those of their supporters or is it the causing of terror (intense fear) to any person no matter whom creates that terror?
      It is hypocritical not to consider some governments equally responsible for terrorism. Often terrorism is a reaction to injustice inflicted on a community by a government hellbent on showing its power and superiority. To say all terrorists are cowards is inaccurate. Are “terrorists cowards if they give their own lives in actions supporting their freedom or are those who remotely “takeout” a family with no risk to their own life the real terrorists. The latter is quite often the action of governments. To say fanatics encourage their followers to acts of terrorism is of course true but again we must include military forces who also indoctrinate their personnel to convince them “only their cause is right”. The soldier is expected to risk his life for the cause just as the lone “terrorist”
      The real difference lies in the morality of the cause for which they are fighting. Is a suicide bomber who blows up a bus in Israel or Pakistan more or less guilty of terrorism than an IDF tank gunner who targets a school or an American who pushes the button on a pilot-less drone over Pakistan.
      In my opinion they are both terrorists by true definition as their actions presume guilt in those they kill regardless of evidence of their guilt or concern for innocent bystanders. To say war is sometimes necessary is a matter of opinion. How many innocent people have died from fanatical causes of both religious and national governments. Some things are worth fighting for but only if the cause is just.  Is it right to kill a child’s family to project power or steal their parent’s land? “Do unto others….......”

    • John A Neve says:

      04:45pm | 23/01/10

      ChrisJ or ChrisG are you one and the same?

      It matters not, “What is terrorism is a legitimate question” and so it is.
      Terrorism is a form of war and as the old saying goes “all is fair in love and war”, how you kill some is of no importance, the fact that you killed them is.

      Again unless we address the cause of terrorism and I believ there as many causes as there are terrorists. We will never be free of terrorism, I repeat for every terrorist you kill another will take their place.

    • ChrisG says:

      04:01pm | 23/01/10

      John A Neve, I think this conversation has run its course, but two minor matters. Nowhere did I suggest that all terrorists are Muslims. Secondly, my use of ‘cause’ in explaining terrorism is as follows: the cause of the terrorist act is the decision by the terrorist to use such tactics. You accept that the rationalisation provided by the terrorist - whatever particular injustice they purport to fight - is the cause of their decision. I think they have other choices. We will have to differ.

    • John A Neve says:

      12:06pm | 24/01/10

      ChrisG @ 1702hrs, on 23/1/10,

      Sorry Chris but have jusr re-read all your posts. Maybe you should do the same. They all have one thing in common, your your reference to Muslims or the inference regarding Islam. Even Eric reads your posts that way !!!
      Sadly you have still failed to give any thought to the “cause” for people to become terrorists.

    • Paul says:

      02:55pm | 24/01/10

      Michael, Considering the Labor party (and then the Libs) left 170,000 East Timorese to be slaughtered on our doorstep - while your party looked the other way- I hardly think you have any lectures to give, particularly when you would surrender our freedoms and democracy so easily out of fear. Perhaps, we need to tell you Labor hypocrites to pull your heads in. Go and read some World War Two history and see what torture and terrorism the East Timorese put up with protecting Aussie soldiers. Disgraceful mate. And totally unAustralian ditching your mates. And has that particular country responsible, stopped invading and terrorising our neighbours? The answer is no Michael.

 

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