Teachers are powerless to stop schoolyard violence

Rationalist says:

08:05am | 01/09/09

Bring back the cane? I say yes.

Eric says:

08:27am | 01/09/09

I would suggest that the systematic purging of male teachers from the system has some bearing on this. Adolescent boys will naturally behave better in the presence of an adult man—it’s in their genes.

Of course, the stupid disciplinary policies also play their part.

Dragnet says:

08:30am | 01/09/09

Welcome to the New World Order.  All those civil libertarian tree huggers, all those who have demanded more ‘rights’ welcome to what you have created.  The ‘thug’ element of society now prey on you.  You created this and neutered the efforts of the authorities who stand up for your true liberal freedom to walk the streets in safety.  Welcome to what you created.  How are you going to fix it?  Whine some more about not enough being done?

Old Clive says:

08:47am | 01/09/09

Yes this true, I know of one person who after 4 years of study raised their voice to an ii year old who went home and told his mother that the teacher raised his voice to them and the soon to be graduated teacher did not receive any backing from the principal, even though there should have been an accredited teacher in the class at the time. That 4 years of study has gone down the tubes because of the lack of discipline in the primary schools, can you imagine trying to control 16 and 17 year old undisciplined kids, that would be worse than trying to control undisciplined workers. Where do all our problems start in the undisciplined homes in this country, and there are plenty of them, all arising from the rights of the child, ahand me down from the U.N. and who do we have to thank for that. I know and you will find out if you do a bit of research, and there was no referendum when the constitution of this country was nullified by the decision.

Jolanda Challita says:

08:48am | 01/09/09

Teachers have little control because the process set up to deal with bullying behaviour is designed to protect the bully.  It is designed this way so as to protect the bullies employed by the DET.  I made formal allegations of systematic neglect, bullying and victimisation against a DET Government employee and they gave the complaint to the bully who just lied, discredited me and my children, closed the complaint and continued to punish us for years for having spoken out.  The bully was promoted to a position of total power despite numerous serious allegations made against her that have never been addressed.  Imagine how powerful she feels when she knows she is untouchable and can continue to bully whilst everybody looks on.  Everybody that was contacted in relation to the matter just asked the bully and accepted whatever she said as the truth.  Nobody has actually investigated any aspect of the allegations.  We are still trying to get justice and to clear our name and our children are still at the mercy of the system and the bully still sits in her tower with the power, ability and will to harm children.  Until we do something about the bullying at the top we will have not hope dealing with the bullying in the playground as children learn by example.  Education Keeping them honest. http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/    Our children deserve better.

david says:

08:49am | 01/09/09

its true if your a male and you try to stop kids fighting your attacking them if you go near girls your a pervet. why do you think there is no longer any men willing to go near children.
Thanks to all the politicans who can hide behind pieces of paper from goodie two shoes who dont know what they are talking about.
two rules 1 bring back disipline 2 get rid of the under 18 dole and if they get suspended they get no more school and no money

Jolanda Challita says:

08:52am | 01/09/09

I also just thought I would say that a good teacher who tried to break up a fight or deal with bullying would be EPACed but a bully teacher will not be investigated by EPAC and I know this for a fact as we sent EPAC serious allegations of bullying and victimisation by DET staff and they returned it saying that they would not investigate it.  So do not believe what the DET say they are being run by bullies and liars.

André says:

08:53am | 01/09/09

There needs to be a balance, Rationalist. Giving someone a whack with a piece of wood just further reinforces that violence is OK, and nowadays, most kids wouldn’t hesitate to hit the teacher back, or knife them, or ‘get their friends on’ them. However, there needs to be tougher punishment on the behalf of the law: a ‘don’t do it again’ and a frown just makes young people go ‘psssht, f-ing (insert derogatory term here)’. Young people aren’t scared of police or the courts, because the courts are soft, and there isn’t much police can do.

RosscO from FNQ says:

09:00am | 01/09/09

The important thing in all this is to exclude welfare workers, sociologists and all the other “do gooders” from any input into the debate.  The problems began with the Whitlam Government and all its social reforms.  The problems we face now were inevitable once traditional forms of discipline were dispensed with.  The sooner the cane is brought back and children can be disciplined by their parents without fear of criminal charges being levelled against them for giving a child a good wallop around the bum the better it will be.  I know there will be many who disagree with me but it’s hard to argue the facts.

Peter Forde - mailtoford@yahoo.com.au says:

09:01am | 01/09/09

Well said, Rationalist, Eric and Dragnet.  Please God there are enough of you sensible thinkers left within Australian society so that Australia’s ideological insanity can be turned around before it’s too late.

The reality is that - in classical leftist immoral cowardliness - those far-too-many ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ thinkers whose insane (accurate word) ideologies have spawned a raft of destructive consequences for Australian society will now be nowhere to be found. “Who me? I never believed or said that!” is their new mantra, replacing “No to War,” “No Spanking”, “No Death Sentence”  and the countless other insane countercultural teachings they forced upon the sane, the decent and the sensible over the past fifty years.

We, the sane and decent MUST start taking *effective” action to turn the insanity around or Australia will soon face social disaster. Our social and political leaders have clearly proved themselves to be absolutely useless. All that’s left if this society has any chance of changing its disastrous direction are…“we the people” Therefore please feel free to contact me.

Dragnet says:

09:02am | 01/09/09

High School Teacher,

EPACed is a tool they have brought over from Police internal investigations.  A complaint is made and even when it’s proven you are innocent or that the complaint is false and malicious you are left with a similar result - ‘complaint unsubstantiated’ (not false, frivilous or totally disproven).  Eventually, you will get to the stage where you act and do the right thing, no matter what the effect has on your official record, because you have so many black marks…you don’t care anymore.  This is how the government idiots (did I say idiots, I meant bureaucrats) determine that matters should be dealt and this is appropriate.  They don’t want to offend the ‘complainer’ by telling them they have no complaint so they leave it in a grey area where no side’s argument is proven or disproven. That way we all feel better about ourselves don’t we, unless you are of course innocent, but the government doesn’t care about that, after all you work for them and they don’t care about you or your career.

Voice of the ppl says:

09:06am | 01/09/09

Perhaps the cane should be set upon the left wing communists who have made society the way it is. People who know there rights inside out. Know how to play the system to their advantage and have no pride or respect in themselves. Thank you very much you hippy communists

Kav says:

09:16am | 01/09/09

Don’t forget that parents aren’t allowedto discipline their children either. A parent can be arrested for smacking a child. So the little thugs go to school and become young thugs. Welcome to the future.

Gandalf says:

09:16am | 01/09/09

I like the way Dragnet insulates himself from any responsibility of how we got here and how we fix it. Guess what bud….. these people you insulate yourself from are the same ones who will be governing this country while you try to enjoy retirement in the future. But that’s al right you have insulated yourself and someone else will fix it, won’t they?

Jonangel says:

09:21am | 01/09/09

This problem is not as easily fixed as “Bring back the cane”.  Bullying is a
deep seated society problem. Teachers, parents or governments can’t fix
it. But WE can, teachers, parents and governments all need to support each
other rather than blame each other. The media too, needs to look past the
shock, horror aspects and dig a little deeper. Loss of respect, self esteem,
poor job opportunities a return of class distinction.

I note all previous blogs blame some one! None of us accept any blame and
that is why things won’t improve.

Mike says:

09:23am | 01/09/09

These classroom thugs wouldn’t last 2 minutes with the English Teacher I had in High School. He would have taken them out the back of the classroom and sorted them out good and proper. He had full control of the class after the troublemakers were sorted. He was a great man and admired by everyone who wanted to learn.

Disillusioned Teacher says:

09:38am | 01/09/09

Believe you me, you are spot on. When I was teaching, I couldn’t believe that a bunch of mature adults could sit back and watch students rule the school. When bullying occurred, mostly the victim left the school since administrators hid behind the so called rights issues and did nothing. When I pointed out that the school rules were not being applied, one headmaster commented that those rules were only there to make the school look compliant - but were not enforceable.  As one indigenous teacher said, ‘Headmasters have all the structure to resolve problems, all they need is the fortitude to apply what is already there.’ Sad when the powers that be hide behind all kinds of bureaucracy while students get to die and get hurt and teachers have their hands tied behind their backs. Come on, lets see common sense action, not more talk from the rights advocates.

Andrew says:

09:44am | 01/09/09

My experience as a victim of this sort of thing at a government high school in Western Sydney during the early 90s would suggest that the vast majority of teachers are talentless jobsworths who couldn’t give a stuff about “bullying” and the like. Infact, many join in the “fun”. After all, the teaching “profession” generally attracts those who can’t get into higher status degrees.

mcdazz says:

10:04am | 01/09/09

And as for the comment from “Voice of the ppl”:

“Perhaps the cane should be set upon the left wing communists who have made society the way it is.”

Are you for real?

In my experience, it’s the snobby parents out there - who generally aren’t “left wing communists” - who don’t want their kids punished.

You can see the behaviour instilled into them by their parents in the way they carry on in public.

Private schools are no better than public schools either - just recently a private school kid was stabbed by another private school kid.  Victims of a “left wing communist” conspiracy?

I don’t think so.

My daughter attends a private school, and she told us how a fellow student was caught with a knife at school.  His punishment?

There was no punishment.  No detention.  No suspension - nothing.

It was all covered up.

im says:

10:12am | 01/09/09

Teachers need to have standards and be made accountable. The teachers who saw nothing when my son was attacked in grade one will be looking over their shoulders forever.

Stephen says:

10:17am | 01/09/09

Dear Editor,
Is this the policy that Julia Gillard wants India to emulate to improve it’s english standards.

Kylie says:

10:20am | 01/09/09

Thats a cop out andrew, and a pointless thing to say in this debate. All teachers i know are there because they chose to be not because they couldnt go further.
There is an increasing level of violence and arrogance in youths (and im only in my 20’s) and i think it can be attributed to their sense of righteousness where they are treated like adults before they’ve even grown up, they have all the rights but none of the responsibilities. Andre’s right, kids arent scared of the police or the courts because there’s nothing they can do. same with teachers, a kid can throw a chair across they class room and all the teacher can do is politely ask them to leave - then the teacher is in trouble for allowing the kid to be unattended.
there is such a lack of respect for teachers and not just from kids but from adults and parents - andrew you’re one of them. If you send your children off to school and expect them to be looked after, then the teachers need to have some power to do just that.

DG says:

10:23am | 01/09/09

I’d love to be able to say that I am completely shocked that a student was beaten to death at school while the teachers did nothing - but there is no surprise.

As a student who was physically assaulted from years 7 - 12, I can tell you that this was inevitable.

The reason is not only that the teachers can’t do anything about it for fear of the punishment, it’s that they can’t do anything about it because 16-17 year old males tend to be physically stronger than the 30’something female teachers that are ‘on duty’.

Lets not pretend that this only happens in the playground - on one occasion the teacher was lured out of the classroom by a student - then members of the class locked the teacher out and proceeded to assault me for no apparent reason. When the teacher did come back (with a key) they pretended that nothing had happened - my complaints fell on deaf ears.

As I think back now, what could have been done? The teacher couldn’t do anything - the teacher’s not even allowed to yell. Calling the police is really the only option. I can tell you from experience that was never going to happen (no matter how badly you are assaulted) because the principal has a personal interest in making sure that such matters are never the subject of an official report.

Even if the police do arrive - what are they going to do, take the kid to the station and say “Don’t do it again”. This happens quite a few times before they even bother to charge the offender with anything (again, from experience) - then the Court say “Don’t do it again”. All of this takes about 6 years and school is over - the delinquent has won and there are no consequences for their actions.

But it gets better - the teacher at our school responsible for dealing with bullying decided that me and a couple of the bullies should sit down and talk about it - this is completely true - she took us into a room, said “I think you lot need to sort this out”, and then left the room and closed the door behind her - they waited maybe 30 seconds, assaulted me and left - the teacher came back maybe 15-20 minutes later and said “What happened?”.

With all of this going on we still pretend to be surprised when kids finally snap and go to school and kill anyone they find - when no one is willing to help the victim of bullying* why are we surprised when they take matters into their own hands.

We’ve gotten to the stage where student have no responsibilities but are well versed in their rights - how about they learn about their responsibilities for a change, rather than being treated like they are special.

* I must admit that counselling was offered to me as the victim of bullying, but “It’s not your fault” only goes so far - and it certainly does nothing to punish the abuser.

Morgan says:

10:30am | 01/09/09

The solution would be to let the fight between the students continue and then urge everyone to march to Sydney to give the EPAC Nazi’s the flogging they so richly deserve.
Have it become part of the vernacular that if your child dies in school that it is the responsibility of the Minister and the EPAC crew and every single one of them face court over manslaughter charges when it occurs. 
If a teacher is made to not become involved because of such a system, then the system is at fault and the people involved on that end must be made to pay.

Jolanda Challita says:

10:40am | 01/09/09

My son was accused of bullying and harrassment by the school.  They told him he could be suspended.  Problem was that my son didn’t know what they were talking about.  When I attended the school and asked for the date of the incident I was told that it didn’t matter the date that they had teachers statements and students statements that said he did it.  I told them that my son had a right to defend himself and that we wanted the date, time and place that the incident occurred.  Eventually they gave us a date, time and place.  Problem was that the school forgot to check the class roll for that day (the man upstairs must have been looking down at us) and, on the day that they said the incident occured my son was at home sick.  It was a witch hunt to discredit my son and to get back at me because I had made some public complaints about neglect and bullying by DET staff.  Apparently the school had put my sons friends in a room together told them that teachers had seen my son bullying and that if it wasn’t my son that it must have been one of them and told them to write a statement.  They all wrote the same thing, that my son had bullied this kid and they wrote it because they didn’t want to be blamed.  We we not given the opportunity to see the teachers statements.  My son had to leave the school as he no longer felt safe or comfortable there.  I wrote a formal complaint - nothing was done.  My son was targeted, victimised, bullied and ostrasized by DET staff and nothing was done about it - time and time again.  It seems like young people have to commit murder or suicide in order to count.

Dragnet says:

10:41am | 01/09/09

Gandalf,

Thanks for providing us with your interpretation of my views.  You are of course incorrect in your assumptions, but nevertheless are entitled to present them.

Hopium says:

10:42am | 01/09/09

I’m a daughter of teachers. My friends are teachers and I was thinking of becoming one.

Even when a teacher is being physically assaulted (and I have seen this), there is nothing they can do.

It’s pathetic. EPAC cannot tell the difference between defence and abuse. I know one or two teachers having had affairs with their students walk away with the same punishment as a teacher who raised their voice!

It is absolutely ridiculous. Then again, if I found out my child had ratted on a teacher trying to break up a fight… I would march them to EPAC and make them tell the truth. Also, they would provide a written apology to the teacher.

David Jones says:

10:51am | 01/09/09

As long as we are long on rights, and short on responsibility, we will continue to get these results.  Sorry, the namby-pamby left wing tree-hugging self-righteous social re-engineers have placed us in this position, and to them, I say a big thank you for the break down in the moral fibre of today’s society.  Spare the rod, and spoil the child.  The kids have so little discipline, they cannot even go to the shops with their parents without demanding food while in a supermarket ... and the parents acquiesce.  Is it any wonder we have no discipline.  Remember the old adage ... the more the pendulum is pushed one way, the further it will go, when it does.  Just look at the Japanese election results.  As long as we ignore this style of standards, we will continue to get these results.  One day we will wake up, but by then, are more likely to over-react the other way.  Start now ... with simple discipline and self-respect.

Barry Crews says:

10:56am | 01/09/09

Good article and it shows what the sticky-nosed interferers have done to our education system and society in general.

It is way past time we got some proper discipline back in the system - perhaps non-education department ‘police’ who answer to the school heirarchy (not the P&C) for orderly conduct at schools.  I don’t mean a bunch of jackbooted brownshirts stopping all fun, but getting rid of the gang mentality that led to this lats most unfortunate incident.

Why, for crying out loud, are there even things such as emos at a public school?  What happened to uniform policy and reinforcement of it?  Is that subject to EPAC action as well?

Just who within the education department actually actions these EPACs?  Are they bitter, former teachers who have lost their way, or power hungry, shiny-arsed bureaucrats that didn’t have the bottle to become a teacher to start with?

Get rid of this crap and let the teachers start to sort out their turf.

Little Fellah says:

10:58am | 01/09/09

Just remember if you do smack your kids on the bottom on the odd occasion DOCS can steal, oh sorry , I meant remove them, because your a threat to their safety.

Jayne says:

11:06am | 01/09/09

all I can say is:  What’s happening at home that is turning out these kids? Schools are only part of the equation.

Blinky Bill says:

11:25am | 01/09/09

Teachers should have restricted powers of intervention and detention over students to protect the victim/s.  Proven perpetrators of violence at schools should have no right to EPAC a teacher and any submission from the student/s should be dismissed.

George says:

11:29am | 01/09/09

Send in Terry O’Gorman and his Civil Libertarian team to sort out every school fight! They are the ones who created this mess!

Bec says:

11:31am | 01/09/09

I’m a teacher at a private school. The reason I have entered this system is because of my experience working at a public school in Sydney. My very first appointment, straight out of uni, I was put into a classroom where the kids called me every name under the sun, one of the girls ran out to chase a 17 year old boy around trying to bash him with a chair - I then had to lockdown my classroom so she couldn’t get back in. When I told the head teacher, I was told “Oh, that’s just Rachel, you did the right thing, just ignore her”. A few days later, I had a rock thrown at my head, causing a concussion. The school did absolutely nothing - I told them about the incident and went home. They kept the class in at recess, asked the person to own up. Nobody did. That was it. I was physically and psychologically traumatised - I ended up having to go on stress leave as after a week in the school, I could no longer eat or sleep. I was sent to a DET counsellor. When I told her about my concerns that the classrooms were out of control, that I wasn’t actually teaching, that the head teachers weren’t listening etc, I was told that my expectations were obviously too high, and maybe I should focus on teaching just one student, and ignore the rest. That was the message being sent by the Department. I quit, and went to teach out in the country for three terms. I had an incredible head teacher who taught me everything I needed to know. I was teaching kids that were just as big and tough, but I could handle them myself (I’m pretty short, only 5 ft 4, so some of these kids were taller than me by a good foot). When the time came to come back to Sydney, I knew that the private system would be the way for me - I just didn’t trust the department, and I still don’t.

And Andrew - you clearly have never met a teacher. Do you think we would keep coming in day after day because we like “getting involved in the fun of bullying”? Do you have any idea how little we get paid in comparison to some industries? Do you have any ideas of the hours we work? During HSC time, I sit up until 2 or 3 am marking essays for students via email so they can feel confident and prepared for the most important exams of their lives - I don’t get paid any extra for that. I work constantly through my so-called holidays - marking, planning, researching, looking for new resources year in year out. I’m at my desk every day at 7am and I’m lucky if I leave by 5pm most days. I do it because I love it. I do it because I am passionate about children’s education. I do it because I want to make a difference. God knows if I didn’t have a passion for what I’d teach, I’d go sit on my butt and work in an office. People have to begin supporting our teachers, or you’ll end up with none. (and by the way, the only reason I have time to write such a long response is because I’m in hospital at the moment. But I’m still being sent essays to mark while I’m here via email.)

Matt Worthington says:

11:40am | 01/09/09

All you teachers out there tell this gestapo department to take a hike.

If your physical intervention prevents another child from getting hurt or killed then do it.

If this department is bullying you, expose it!!

Even if it means wearing a camera / voice recording like some police are doing to prevent mallicious complaints…

If something is unjust, fight for it and you will win eventually.

L says:

11:49am | 01/09/09

I agree with Jayne. Parents often turn a blind eye for a whole lot of reasons and leave the schools to fix the problem. I recently arranged a meeting with a school principal and teacher to alert them to instances of physical violence from a very small child. The instances weren’t going away, everyone knew there was a problem but nothing seemed to be happening. I carefully reminded the school authorities of their duty of care to all the other children, and where from a legal perspective any lack of action might lead them if any other child was seriously injured by the small student. I am delighted to say that they took firm and decisive - and positive - action, and funnily enough, the child at the centre of the issue seems a happier citizen. I think it is tough that the schools have to make up for any deficits at home, but that’s the situation nowadays.

Moose says:

11:59am | 01/09/09

Well I hope society is happy with themselves. All this ‘Don’t touch the kids’ attitude has done is breed a generation who think they can do what they want, when they want. Everyone is far to precious for their own good. People need to grow a set and understand that the ADULTS MAKE THE RULES, and if you don’t like it, tough! If you rebel against it, you get punished. Stop pandering to the minority who have got us to this state and take back the control that has been lost in all these ‘rights’ amendments. As far as I’m concerned, children have no rights till they turn 18 and become an adult themselves, hopefully by that time, they have learnt some self control and respect for others through positive reinforcement of right and wrong and what would be considered acceptable behaviour.

CT says:

12:15pm | 01/09/09

The restrictions put on teachers and schools in disciplining these little scumbags are outrageous.
The only conclusion that can be drawn is that whomever it was who drafted the rules and approved them did so with the intention of creating generations of delinquents who would grow into career criminals.
When teachers could break up fights and then cane delinquent little arses there were not many problems in schools.
I went to school in Queensland during the era of the cane and the kick up the arse and it worked pretty well.
One of the reasons that my children train alongside me in a karate dojo is that schools have become dangerous places, because the scumbags are allowed to run riot. In some ways, school is now more dangerous than the street.
Something that the apologists for these scumbags should bear in mind is that if you are attacked by someone who is armed or ‘in company’ the law allows the use of lethal force in self defence.
The magic words are ‘I feared for my life’.
If they are attacked, my kids will not hesitate to do whatever may be necessary to defend themselves . . . and they do not need a weapon because they are the weapon.

stephen says:

12:19pm | 01/09/09

... So how do you get the littlies to do their homework ?

Steve says:

12:47pm | 01/09/09

haahaa! I love this ! Push a wimpy feminist agenda and this is the society you get!  Enjoy those EPAC’s. lol

Darryl K says:

12:56pm | 01/09/09

And at what point to the regulations, rules and law applied under the criminal code and common law come into play when a government department’s investigative body chooses to conduct an inquiry into a teacher’s behaviour. Where a teacher steps in to prevent a criminal assault, they are acting in accordance with the common law precept that all members of society have an obligation to prevent the commision of an offence. Further, where an individual moves to assist another who is being assaulted, the person providing assistance is permitted to use the same degree of force as the victim is. At what point does a departmental policy over-ride legally accepted concepts or elements of a legislative act? The culture of cover-up is alive and well in both state and private education systems. Whilst politicians publicy decry the violence in our schools, they do nothing to amend faulty departmental guidelines and policy. Principals and administrators cover up the full extent of the problem as part of a major ‘Cover Your Arse’ exercise and teachers are left to carry the can, be the victims of assault by recidivist thugs and then endure public accusations of ineptitude and indifference.  Our entire social structure has disintegrated in the last 30 odd years, mainly due to the efforts of those civil libertarians who have continually espoused the concept of ‘Individual Rights’ whilst conveniently ignoring the requirement for individual and social responsibility. They have been aided and abetted by weak-gutted politicians and we will be stuck with this situation until a family member of a senior politician or public servant finally dies from this farce we call justice.

G says:

12:59pm | 01/09/09

Wow, you guys should really do some research, and find out if what you hear is true.

Homicides, Property crime and various other crimes are actually on the decrease (Australian Institute of Criminology).  So your incorrect mental image of schools running riot, the moral fabric of society breaking down and a youth running out of control is not correct.  You like to believe it but it isn’t true.

In fact for all the people here brought up during the time of the cane.  Crime was worse when you guys were in school, getting the cane from your teacher and getting fiddled by your local parish priest .. 

riddle me that?

HG says:

01:07pm | 01/09/09

Aggressive kids from broken homes do not understand things like “please”, “excuse me” & “thank you.” You can’t pander to children like these by letting them get away with their violent actions.

While institutions like EPAC exist as a response to past abuses by teachers towards students, they seem to be constructed upon a basis where the default assumption is that the teacher, as the individual in authority, has committed a wrong once there has been a complaint made against them.

Robin says:

01:08pm | 01/09/09

Teachers, as employees have expectations of being able to work in a safe workplace that is not injurious to their health, yet this is being denied across Australia. As citizens they should also expect to have legal protection against forms of violence against them. However State education systems deny teachers access to justice and equality with other members of the community. In Victoria the workload of bureaucracy by the Victorian Institute of Taxation (sorry, teaching) imposed on 1st year teachers “to maintain professional standards” is one reason why the average time in teaching is now less than 5 years. Experienced career teachers are leaving in droves, stressed by a combination of their lack of empowerment to deal with riotous kids, their powerless legal situation if an incident occurs and the bureaucracy that has little consideration for their Occupational Health and Safety

TK says:

01:33pm | 01/09/09

Quite right. Over my many years of teaching in high school, the sanctions able to be used against violent kids or persistent rule-breakers slowly disappeared.

Kids fighting each other were to be “told to stop it”.

I think it is still the case that no state government education department will actually lay down any further rules on this last point.

So that means the ridiculous situation of two nine year olds fighting each other is regarded by many teachers as a hands-off situation: you get into legal trouble if you do intervene.

If there is going to be a rule revision made to force teachers to step in then it will need to be accompanied by a guarantee of non-prosecution.

Security guards are not an answer – how many would be needed for a school of 1200 students?

Of course, forcing a small female teacher to intervene to stop two 14-year olds fighting will be interesting.

Leah says:

01:53pm | 01/09/09

Teachers and schools can definitely do something about bullying. Of course it also depends on the children involved. When I was in highschool (graduated 2004) I had a friend who was being bullied by an ex-friend. The bully was then told by our Year Co-ordinator she was not allowed to come near my friend or talk to her. If she did she’d be suspended. At our school bullying was treated seriously; if you were found to be a repeat offender you’d be expelled. It was especially strict on physical bullying. If you hit a student, you were automatically suspended and had to undergo anger management classes. If you hit a student again, you were expelled.

I did not witness many physical fights in my time at highschool. But those I did didn’t last for long before several teachers descended on the fights, automatically breaking them up. They might not be able to physically separate the students, but they can put them in detention, suspend and expel them. Adults these days might think “oh young people these days have no respect for authority” but you’d be surprised, most teenagers do. THey might not be perfectly obedient little children, but once they’ve been put in detention/suspended for bad behaviour, they usually realise they have to shape up or they’ll be kicked out. Those who don’t, and carry on with their bad behaviour despite school discipline, should simply be expelled.

I do think teachers should be allowed to physically separate fighting students, but the fact they can’t doesn’t tie their hands.

On a related topic: my mum (a teacher) one had to physically restrain an 8 year old child who was chasing another kid with a pair of scissors. The kid turned to my mum screaming “you’re not allowed to touch me, my mum’s gonna sue you!” Fortunately the mother was a very teacher-supportive person and read her son the riot act.

Ray says:

01:56pm | 01/09/09

The punishment for bullying in schools is too soft for what they now can get away with.
The system is flawed and teachers are now so aware of their “actions” to interveine when the consequences can be so great if reported badly/falsely, that they are left with one choice “turn a blind eye”.
Ignorance is not bliss, it just means the teacher(s) prefer to avoid a much bigger issue from those of higher authority (EPAC, DOCs, etc)

Leah says:

01:57pm | 01/09/09

Kav, in Australia it’s perfectly legal to smack your kids. Just don’t leave bruises or you’re in trouble.

Dave says:

02:05pm | 01/09/09

When you send your kids to an essentially free school you get what you pay for.  Is it really any mystery why private schools are so popular?  While quality teaching plays a role of even greater importance to most parents is quality discipline.  The thing that a private school virtually always has is a concerned and interested parent body.  I’m sure at mullumbimby high and many others you get the usual welfare leeches who couldn’t give a stuff about their kids, let alone their education.  These are the sorts of people that parents are trying to keep their kids away from.

Dragnet says:

02:21pm | 01/09/09

G. Statistics can be manipulated.  I know, I have seen it.  Two comments:

Governments manipulate statistices to reach a desired outcome - fact.

What about the unreported crimes, how do we take into account the number of property crimes not taken into account.  They weren’t reported because more and more people know the Police are unlikely to even show up for their report?

Canute says:

02:39pm | 01/09/09

Many years ago, a first year teacher I knew well and who went on to better things, threw a “Blue Messel” science text book at a violent, unpleasant youth who had driven him to distraction. The boy ran into the deputy principal’s office to complain. The DP said to the boy “And just what was it you did, that infuriated Mr X so much ... ?”.  Compare and contrast.

davido says:

02:39pm | 01/09/09

Blame the catholic perverts oops…  I mean teachers. We need strong laws to prevent teachers abusing kids but somewhere respect needs to be instilled.

What about arming playground teachers with 3ft rattan canes. That might do the trick.

Educated says:

02:39pm | 01/09/09

Simple answer: Make school non compulsory. Who would want to teach students these days? Who would want to teach students who don’t want to learn? Many students who don’t want to learn have parents who don’t value education, so making education non-compulsory would effectively remove about 60% of disruptive and uncontrollable students. Let them start working in factories when they’re tired of school at age 8, 10, 12 etc.

DB says:

02:44pm | 01/09/09

Thank you for writing this. I am a Beginning teacher in an extremely difficult school, and I have to say that after only 2 years out of uni, I am already planning alternative career paths. Teaching has become a horrible profession. Adolescents are completely aware of their rights and, as this article says, the most we can do to discipline them is a joke to them.
Parents don’t discipline their children and don’t support teachers in trying to implement school-based penalties like after-school detentions or such.
I see bullying occurring and am completely powerless to do anything about it. And the victims know it as well. All I can do is tell them to fill out incident slips but they don’t bother with them because they know nothing will get done about it. It’s just an endless cycle.

Tupac says:

02:46pm | 01/09/09

I heard the ABC radio yesterday, they played a sound bite from the principal from the high school where the boy died.
He claimed that calls from certain peolpe that he is responsible, and resign etc were “agreed by senior students” during a recent forum to “repulsive”.
Clearly he understands the nature of PR spin. Just deny, deny, deny, and always pretend that the masses are on your side. That’ll shut you lot up wont it…

jonno says:

02:48pm | 01/09/09

DG… you are so right.

I once taught as a substitute in England. circa 2000

One of the ‘exercises’ my poor students had to do was a cricle of truth!
That meant the whole class standing around a single child and telling him or her what they didnt like about them. TRUE STORY. You can imagine the results… severe mental damage to all involved. It did however give the class lout’s the opportunity to get stuck in with impunity.

When it came to the class lout’s turn to go in the centre you could hear a pin drop. Obviously no-one was game to say a word.

goonie says:

02:49pm | 01/09/09

Erm,. There are an awful lot of comments such as “I’m sure at mullumbimby high and many others you get the usual welfare leeches who couldn’t give a stuff about their kids, let alone their education.  These are the sorts of people that parents are trying to keep their kids away from.”

I can’t get over how right wing and ridiculous you all sound. Yes, there are people who are like that, I’m sure. But the worst bullying I’ve seen - including sexual assault, extended physical torture (well, I’d call a group of sixteen year olds pinning down and abusing a twelve year old with a torch for two hours torture). the odd broken limb - was undertaken by wealthy, privileged and outwardly well behaved individuals, who didn’t have to go to juvie because mummy and daddy paid for them to go to an expensive school instead. As someone who was there on a scholarship and working hard to keep it, I copped a fair amount of shit for being a failure from a poor family, despite never being in trouble and getting consistently good grades.

Punished for bullying? nooooo, just pay for some hockey equipment and it’ll all blow over.  Some definition of concerned and interested parent body…

Get off your high horses and look to your own children rather than assuming the problem is always created by others. You may just happen to be the parent of the machiavellian little horror who torments the rest of the class. I reckon your children are learning your “blame everyone else” views and using them to justify their own misbehaviour.

Sam Donakis says:

02:52pm | 01/09/09

The insanity of it all! The civil libertarian influenced bureaucrats who rule school systems around Australia have absolutely no idea about adolescent psychology and it shows. The brutal facts are that bullies only respond to violence. Schools will degenerate much further before an inevitable return to corporate punishment to control what will be by then, anarchic public school systems that no normal parent will want to have their children caught up in.

TomPaine says:

02:53pm | 01/09/09

To the people who equate social concepts (however weak or misguided) with communism, go and learn some political theory and history. You’re showing your ignorance. Under a communist system, schooling would be just as prone to excessive discipline as among the most ‘progressive’ countries. What is missing is common sense, something the authorities have always feared, as it takes power away from incomprehensible institutions, and is universally understood by everyone.          Unfortunately, people are no longer taught to think for themselves, but actively discouraged from doing so. They’re better controlled this way. The reason well-meaning laws fail, is that there will always be people in all societies who choose to act as they see fit (these laws simply allow them to get away with it easier), and the only ones ‘kept in check’ are the people who were doing the right thing all along. In every respect of a healthy society, it all comes down to this: no rights without equivalent responsbility.

Clare says:

03:11pm | 01/09/09

I am totally baffled why people say you cant discipline your children at all. That smakcing is illegal no it is not. you are not allowed to belt the crap out of them but you are allowed to smack them.no one gets arrested we are not new zealand . The cane does stuff all I remember when the cane was in and it was a badge of honour for certain students to get it. has anyone thought to much tv and break down of society has anything to do with this, no one gives a stuff to much senseless violence on tv. parents trying to be their childrens friends, buying them things to shut them up. No importance on the family unit anymore. Majority of parents are misinformed and go oh cos the cane is not in schools hmm but does it not start at home not at school. Parents go I cant hit my kid hmm no but you can dicipline them and you start early not later on. you can still smack them if you feel the need to so shut up with your garbage bring back the cane, its cos we cant hit our children stop your garbage.

Darryl K says:

03:41pm | 01/09/09

Dragnet at 1.21pm, thanks mate, you saved me from putting forward the very same arguements to G. Clare, you may be able to smack your children - though you would need to check the individual state legislation on what the boundaries are regarding parental discipline - but I would ask how effective smacking is with children over about 5 years of age, let alone 14-17. By the teenage years, it is a bit too late for that approach. Yes, discipline needs to be taught in the home. However, when the kids are also given a plethora of information on how to move away from home, what their rights are, how their parents and teachers (and other members of society) are restricted in their dealings with a child (pls read under 18 years of age) it does become problematic. They are provided the means to circumvent the system and, with it, any sense of social responsibility. I witnessed three teenagers assaulting and robbing a man in the middle of Brunswick Street Mall in Brisbane in 1994. On going to his aid, I was told how I would be the one charged with assault by a gobby, know it all 15 year old. He was more than a little surprised when police came down on my side, thinking that, as a minor, there was nothing the victim or anyone else could do to him.

DM says:

03:57pm | 01/09/09

Most of the problems in schools are as a direct result of parents.  We have a generation of parents who think their little Angels can do no wrong.  I personally know a teacher who was physically threatened by a students father when he told a student that if she mucked around in a job the way she mucked around at scjhool, she would be fired.  He was trying to put some perspective on her behaviour to get her to realise what the effect of her behaviour whould be on her life.  the Father told him in front of the child that if he ever spoke to his 16 year old child like that again he would punch the teacher’s lights out.  What uis a teacher supposed to do.  i know of other parents who march their kids dowhn to teh school to abuse the principle when he gives their kids a detention or suspension. One parent asked the teacher “what are you doing to make sure my son isnt being a distraction in the classroom”.  How do you deal with stupidity like that.  Give teachers back rights to dicipline in the classroom, and give principles the right to tell parents that if tehy dont like it, they are welcome to change schools.  Parents are one of the biggest causes of this problem.

PD says:

04:05pm | 01/09/09

Please provide links as to where it says that teachers should not stop a schoolyard fight.

Please provide links that prove that teachers cannot sue students if they (teachers) are assaulted by them (students).

I think you’ll be surprised to find that teachers have more rights than you think they do.  Occupational Health and Safety laws are enforceable and the department and principals are required to provide a safe working environment.  And if you get into trouble - why not contact your union?  That’s what they’re for!

Jolanda Challita says:

04:29pm | 01/09/09

Rubbish DM. Most of the problems at school are a direct result of the Education Department not dealing properly and fairly with bullying behaviour at school including within their ranks, within the teaching profession and in the school yard.

People push the boundaries because they know that they can, they bully because they know it will make them popular and earn them respect.  Even if it is respect out of fear they do not care.  If the system dealt properly with those who bullied and/or failed in their duty of care things would be different.

The parents cannot control the classroom as they are not present at school so how is it their fault.  If kids have no respect for teachers it is because they have no respect for a system that protects bullies and those who fail in their duty of care.

Marianne says:

04:54pm | 01/09/09

I say bring back the cane. I am against smacking kids, as I believe that other methods work just as well, like time outs and reinforcing positive behaviour (kids are like animals who are trained to behave, not small humans who one should try to reason with).

But seeing as parents are incapable of teaching their kids to respect adults these days (see previous comment about them being treated like someone to reason with) the teachers must be allowed to discipline them.

And no, I’m not old; I’m only 27, I just know how to raise kids.

Bea says:

05:14pm | 01/09/09

And people didn’t want QLD teachers to get pay rises to be on equal pay to the other states? Lot’s of broo ha ha then about how easy teachers have it.

Groucho says:

05:28pm | 01/09/09

Thank God I teach in Queensland.  Our Code of Conduct and Child Protection Policy makes it clear that we are to do everything in our power to protect children from harm.  So if a child is behaving in a violent way towards themselves or others, teachers MUST do everything they can to reduce that risk. if it means restraining a violent or out of control child, or removing one physically from a room then you do it.  i have done so many times and although some parents still have the stupid idea that teachers in Qld cannot touch a child (they are wrong), once the policy is explained to them, they usually understand.  If they don’t it doesn’t matter anyway because the policy is clear.

Not only that, the law in Qld makes it clear anyone can defend themselves using reasonable force.  if a student was punching me, then i could justify a punch back followed by an arm lock and a call for help - that’s the law and i know of a teacher who has had to do it, without any negative consequences.

Mark says:

05:47pm | 01/09/09

This article is spot-on. My mother, a former teacher in the state system, has been saying this for years. And my own experience as a parent bears it out.

And for those saying that the problem is with the parents at home; yes, no doubt in some cases this is true. But in most cases the parents are at a disadvantage - struggling to raise children who are enrolled in an education system that is way out of step with their own beliefs and values.

@ G:

We’ve all seen reports about how crime rates are dropping and it’s all just a knee-jerk, ignorant reaction to media hype. Before you get too sarcastic with us poor masses, I invite you to read an excellent little book titled, “How to Lie With Statistics”. An older book, but oh-so-appropriate to those who cite crime statistics like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

@ Clare:

OMG! Proof reading is your friend! If you want people to read your post at least have the courtesy to use a spell checker. Or learn to write. Or something. Whatever you do, don’t make us wade through a wall of text inserting capitals and punctuation to make it readable. It’s just lazy.

Fiona says:

05:54pm | 01/09/09

You know it isn’t just state schools. My daughter goes to a private school, and she was one of three girls each separately bullied by a particular child at the school last year, and the school’s solution was to separate the victims from their friends in this year’s class lists. Just the other week, the same bully was stealing food from another child’s locker and I know for a fact the school never raised the issue with the victim’s parents, acknowledged the event occurring or provided the family with any feedback regarding consequences. I’ll bet the bully got off scot-free.

Jeanette says:

06:00pm | 01/09/09

My children were being bullied at their old school and it was MY children who received lunch time detentions for their troubles.  This of course only gave more power to the bullies.

Teachers do have a lot to answer for, but so do the morons whol took away a lot of power from the schools.

G says:

06:08pm | 01/09/09

Dragnet and Darryl K.

In both your cases I believe that news coverage has magnified in your mind the number of widespread but wrong or unverified impressions that school violence is an epidemic and has shaped both of your perceptions of a violent society today. 

In regards to stats, the Australian Government Institute of Criminology has provided information that contradicts what you have stated which is produced using standardised sample surveys, I think in this instance I will take their peer reviewed evidence based reporting over your opinion.

I think the issue is a lot more complex than you might realise and you shouldn’t just blame the school system.  All students bring with them a collective life experience, both positive and negative, shaped by the environment of family, school, peers, community, and culture. 

Out of that collective experience come values, prejudices, biases, emotions, and the student’s responses to stress and authority and student behaviour at school is affected by the entire range of experiences and influences.  No one factor is decisive.

Your comment that the social structure has disintegrated is also incorrect and your perception shaped by external influences and biases has clearly played a part here in your opinion. 

Almost all types of crime are on the decrease and this can be attributed to better policing, improved situational crime prevention, education and an increase in societal stability and general cohesion, and an increase in wealth distribution amongst all classes are among many of the reasons for the reduction. Check out ‘Criminal Victimisation in International Perspective’ produced by the UN, this clearly details the reduction in crime in Western nations including Australia.

John says:

06:32pm | 01/09/09

The way things are going we are going to loose a lot of teachers. I believe teachers should intervene and scare the living daylights out of them. It’s either that or hire a security guard for every school.

G says:

07:48pm | 01/09/09

Mark,

I think you might be confused.  My point is that there are ‘no’ reports in the media that state that crime rates are dropping even though its documented fact.  Why, because stories about how good things are don’t get readers.

Dragnet says:

09:18pm | 01/09/09

G,

“In both your cases I believe that news coverage has magnified in your mind the number of widespread but wrong or unverified impressions that school violence is an epidemic and has shaped both of your perceptions of a violent society today. “

I believe you have imagined I have said this somewhere.  I for one, don’t rely on the media to ever present accurate impression of the world we live in…ever.

” In regards to stats, the Australian Government Institute of Criminology has provided information that contradicts what you have stated which is produced using standardised sample surveys, I think in this instance I will take their peer reviewed evidence based reporting over your opinion.”

The Institute still can’t gather unreported stats as far as I am aware, so it’s best guess.  I think I will rather approach their facts with due scepticism than swallow their best guess, but your still okay as a human being even if you swallow everything your fed because it comes from a government source (I think that’s where they want you to be as well, part of the dumbed down masses).  I think it relevant to state that I am not in any way anti-government, they could do a better job and should be doing a better job.

“I think the issue is a lot more complex than you might realise and you shouldn’t just blame the school system.”

I don’t believe I did, anywhere.

“Your comment that the social structure has disintegrated is also incorrect and your perception shaped by external influences and biases has clearly played a part here in your opinion.”

Your comment that I said social structure has in fact ‘disintegrated’ is a woeful exaggeration of your perception of what I have said.  I also base my position on my life experience, of actual close involvement with violence in society both on practical and analytical foundation.

As I have mentioned, I have intimate knowledge and have witnessed the distortion of statistics by goverment authorities.  I have been there and observed, not imagined and not read off the internet.  If you want to swallow this as ‘fact’ , then let’s hope it makes you feel better about yourself and the world you live in, that is after all what the ‘distorters’ aim to achieve when they set out.

Please, if you’re going to have a reasoned discussion, don’t make false assertions, tell me what my perceptions are, nor exaggerate or blatantly distort what I have previously said for your own perceived advantage within the realms of your own mind.

Jeff says:

10:28pm | 01/09/09

Go to the police, do not pass go, do not collect 200, go straight to the police! The WA Teachers Union has now directed their members to report al, absolutely all, incidences of assault to the police.
It has offered to support them to the hilt (even though their department won’t do that).  It has told them to ignore all efforts by parents, admin or anyone else to dissuade them.
Tie up the police, let the real story of the number of unreported assaults emerge and maybe, just maybe the ‘authorities’ will start to get serious.
If any of these incidences happened on the weekend, in many cases the police would be involved.
Even if you do not get a conviction, the problem is officially and seriously recorded and a visit from the police still carries a little weight - and is therefore a form of punishment in itself.
As Kanter wrote - ‘It is not the severity of the punishment that is effective - it is the certainty.”

D says:

02:21am | 02/09/09

Sounds to me we need a monitor to monitor the monitors.  Wire all classrooms with sound and cctv, then anytime there is an issue between the lecturer and student this is the only evidence taken into account.  Anytime disciplinary action needs to be taken against a student, record the whole bloody thing….complete transparency.  Anytime EPAC needs to deal with an issue, same thing, record the entire proceeding.  That way if teachers or students have a grievance with the process we don’t have to rely on a ‘he said, she said’ recollection..everyone, including EPAC will be held accountable for the way they handle themselves and complaints…and if anyone, whether student, teacher or governing body should be found to be lying, or their actions less than honorable, they should be left open to further independent investigation, and pending the outcome, litigation.
Parents should be forced to sign contracts with the school accepting complete, including financial, responsibility for their child(ren)s actions whilst that child(ren) is on school grounds, and with complete cctv coverage of the school it shouldn’t be too hard to determine who threw the first punch, who smashed a window, or whether a teachers intervention in a playground brawl was appropriate or not.

M says:

03:58am | 02/09/09

Andrew - how about giving it a go before saying anyone would do this job because they couldn’t be bothered to do it… or that they couldn’t get into it at university. Lots of university course entrance policies for teachers are now on a par with many other professions. When I entered uni my degree was the same as a psychiatrist.

Not one person would stick with this job for more than one or two years if they were just doing it because it was all they were qualified for. You need to have a passion for this job.

Others - When you have children walk out of your classroom because the UN Human Rights say that everyone has instant and free access to water and they decide they’re thirsty 5 minutes before the bell for recess you might be aware that they have been given all control.

G says:

08:44am | 02/09/09

Dragnet,

Huh?

Sorry I was basing a component of my commentary on your original post, which to be honest sounded kinda nutty…

Dragnet says:

07:30am | 01/09/09

“Welcome to the New World Order.  All those civil libertarian tree huggers, all those who have demanded more ‘rights’ welcome to what you have created.  The ‘thug’ element of society now prey on you.  You created this and neutered the efforts of the authorities who stand up for your true liberal freedom to walk the streets in safety.  Welcome to what you created.  How are you going to fix it?  Whine some more about not enough being done?”

Complete social disorder and society breaking down was Darryl’s take on things…

Come on take a breath and look at the issue rationally, don’t just use one source, your own experience.  There’s a variety of groups, associations including the government who can provide information that has been reviewed.  This is also backed up by international crime trend.  If you have information that can persuade me otherwise please link it as
I prefer factual evidence to back up an argument, I suspect you don’t. 

Can I also say, I do applaud you on your straw-man argumentative abilities.

Mistress D says:

09:23am | 02/09/09

The sex of a teacher doesn’t equate to whether or not they can stop bullying.

It’s a matter of respect and knowing that the teacher is a human being. But it’s hard to picture anyone as human if they can’t do the normal human things, like putting their hand on someone’s shoulder when they need it. I know female teachers, my mother included, who can stop a fight with words simply because they have the respect that should be afforded to them, but they’ve had to hone those skills to demand respect within the guidelines of not hurting the snowflake’s feelings- all while the said child is making someone elses life hell.

But bullying is always going to be there, not just in schools but workplaces too. We’re not going to stop it because people are jerks. I was bullied throughout the majority of my highschool years, the teachers weren’t responsible. I don’t blame them for the physical or emotional hurts inflicted by the idiots who thought they could squash me.

But then, my life was made easier by the fact I knew that while the teachers might not be able to do much, that they still cared and they thought I was pretty good. It’s not healed all the wounds, which I accept may be with me for the rest of my life, but they helped prop me up when I couldn’t be strong for myself.

Sometimes with bullying, that’s all you need to know and have, faith that someone else out there doesn’t think any of your faults match up to the sum of the entire person.

Maybe if more had the respect and trust in someone who’s older and probably knows more that I was brought up to have, we might still have the bullies, but we might have more young people knowing that there is still support out there, if only in a faded form of what it should be.

Worried Parent says:

09:36am | 02/09/09

This starts at home with the parenting,if a teacher reprimands a child and that child complains to the parents,they then go to the school and abuse the teacher and cry denial of their child.The kids then know they can get away with this abuse then,so it spreads like a virus.Yes..I have family in the education department and I have been told of issues and it’s shocking,the goings on with the attitude of these students makes you cringe and think…these are the future leaders,what will the future have in store for us when we get older…Please think people it’s our future to we are dealing with and if we don’t make a stand know,what’s going to happen..It is frightening.!!!

Returned Man says:

10:27am | 02/09/09

“if it means restraining a violent or out of control child, or removing one physically from a room then you do it.  i have done so many times”

Thank you, Groucho!!  Let’s hope that puts an end to the little myth being peddled here about teachers not being able to physically stop fights.  There you go - Qld policy in black and white!

phee says:

10:45am | 02/09/09

Dave, my son was being teased over his prominent teeth in a private catholic school so I transferred him to a state school.  Result - no more teasing.

Mark says:

01:09pm | 02/09/09

@ G:

> I think you might be confused.  My point is that there are ‘no’ reports
> in the media that state that crime rates are dropping even though its
> documented fact.  Why, because stories about how good things are
> don’t get readers.

I don’t think I’m confused. Regardless of it seldom being a leading story, statistics showing crime rates dropping over time are hardly hidden. A simple Google search will turn these up without difficulty. The problem most of us have with this is that it *is* easy to lie with statistics, the ABS and UN are hardly untainted by accusations of bias, and these statistics don’t marry up with our day-to-day experiences.

Even assuming that the stats are correct, it seems to me much more likely that people have become more accepting of crime and it therefore takes a lot more to get people to report them these days.

The problem is that anyone arguing against these stats is automatically labelled as just one of the “sheeple” who think that ACA and Today Tonight are the baseline for truth in news, or some conspiracy theorist who wears a tinfoil hat and thinks that the government is spying on them. It’s frustrating.

G says:

03:32pm | 02/09/09

Sorry Mark, I haven’t explained myself properly.  Your and others personal experience in relation to crime is highly valid and reputable, but it is anecdotal.  If it happened to you, it happened; but it’s not proof of a broader problem in the community at large.

This is fear of crime, a genuine anxiety of crime by an individual and an increased perception of risk of victimisation, when in fact there is little evidence to suggest that there is a link between fear of crime and the likelihood of victimisation.  This fear can influence public sentiment and affect the thoughts and behavior of the public that includes the perception that there is degradation of society’s morals and a general societal breakdown.  This can have damaging effects on a community’s well being, and can change people’s routine activities and cohesion which affects community stability. 

New coverage plays a part in this and has a tendency to exaggerate and focus on violent crimes over other minor crimes.

There are many groups outside of government that monitor and report on trends in crime and criminal justice, I direct you to a small segment of a much larger group of non government institutions locally and internationally:

The Australasian Neighbourhood Watch
The Crime Research Centre - Faculty of Law: The University of Western Australia
Offenders Aid and Rehabilitation Services of South Australia
The International Victimology Website
Public Safety Canada’s National Crime Prevention Centre
Praxis International

Other Government: Office of Crime Statistics and Research (Office of the Attorney General), NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, the Australian Centre of Policing Research, Australian Criminology Research Council.

If you have a link to information that refutes what I have stated previously then I am happy to read whatever evidence you have.  If it is as extensive and broad, and academically verified as the information I have examined then I am sure it would influence my conclusion.

Dragnet says:

05:37pm | 02/09/09

G

How convenient of you to selectively ignore what I have said.  You say I shouldn’t limite my argument to my own personal experience.  What I actually said was

“I also base my position on my life experience, of actual close involvement with violence in society both on practical and analytical foundation.”

The analytical side would be the two Degrees studying crime and its effects.

You seem incapable of a discussion where you debate the facts, rather it is in exercise in massaging your own ego with your imagined superiority and manipulating and distorting what was said. I suggest you seek medical intervention, you need it.  Don’t bother replying, I won’t be discussing anything further with you.

G says:

07:52pm | 02/09/09

Dragnet,

Fair comment, looking back over my commentary it does come across that way however unintentional.  The last intervention my friends and my doctor staged for impulsive blog trolling didn’t end well… as you can I am still recovering…

But in all seriousness, I am not stuck in one position of thought, and I am keen to learn more on these types of issues, If you have a link to information that reinforces what you have stated in your previous comments then I would be eager to read it.

ready to give up says:

09:03pm | 02/09/09

Teenagers today have nothing to fear. They laugh at detention, laugh at suspension and if they are expelled (in very, very rare cases) they just go to another school and start all over again. They are vexacious bush lawyers who seem to know every loophole and get away with everything.

I have been ‘EPACed’.... a student claimed that I hit him - this, in retaliation for me sending home a letter for his lack of work and cooperation in the classroom. After months of distress to myself and my family, this boy admitted that he had lied. I receive a mark against my name and he gets absolutely nothing but the satisfaction that he had rung me through the ringer. He does not get a detention or a suspension or even removed from my class. Nothing. He does not even comprehend the consequences of his actions.

I love teaching, I am good at what I do and I believe I have a lot to offer, but more and more I am beginning to hate the majority of students who ruin it for everyone else and I am looking for a new career.

GB says:

03:12pm | 12/09/09

I am a current secondary student, and i think that it is rediculas what we can do and get away with, and from what i understand it isnt just my school. We have been told by teachers/staff members that they cant even expell students now, unless the directly physicaly assualt a staff member or are arested & charged under criminal law. under recent legislation change by the state gov’t victoria.
This is our “politacaly corect” society at work, with arm chair idiots at the center of it all.