When 150 business and union leaders, academics, accountants, bureaucrats and politicians gather this October for the long-awaited tax summit, few believe it will result in rapid change. This is tax policy after all. As someone once observed: “it’s not rocket science, it’s more complicated”.

Henry tells it like it is. Cartoon: Peter Nicholson

While the summit, or “forum” - as the Government now calls it having been dragged to it in the deal with independents to form a minority government - will be more substantial than Kevin Rudd’s celebrity-heavy 2020 ideas summit, only the sunniest of optimists expect actual measurable change to come from it in the short term.

Rather, the hope now is that approaching four years since the then Treasury Secretary Ken Henry started the process, the Government will map out the field.

Such has been Australia’s mostly rhetorical march through this dull but worthy topic that one has to look all the way back to 1985 - more than 25 years ago - to find a real appetite in government for bold new ideas on the tax front.

The Howard Government to its credit brought in the 10 per cent goods and services tax at the beginning of the last decade, but the concept of a consumption tax was first litigated in a broad political sense, 15 years before by a reform-oriented young treasurer Paul Keating.

Hopes were thus pretty high when Wayne Swan announced on the back of his first Budget in May, 2008 that the Government would go back to tors via a comprehensive, “root and branch” review of the tax system.

With the notable exclusion of the GST - Labor had won just months before on a promise not to touch it - the Henry Review was to look at everything.

But by late 2008 however, as Dr Henry and team beavered away, all talk of economic conservatism, or even long-term strategic planning, necessarily gave way to a more immediate problem: how best to shovel billions in stimulus spending into the economy to stave off recession.

Australia survived well but the public policy reform agenda was set back.

That global cataclysm of course, is not over.

Just this week assorted youths, anarchists, and mothballed public servants were hurling pieces of pavement in a central Athenian square at riot police as the Greek economy teetered on the edge of bankruptcy.

The spectre of a double-dip global recession has also re-emerged especially as the last century’s engine room, the consumer-driven US economy hits its credit card limit again with public debt now approaching 100 per cent of GDP.

But the GFC only partly explains the faltering progress to tax reform here.

The reason Messrs Rudd and Swan sat on the Henry Review for months before releasing it was that they wanted to have their response to its key recommendations ready. Not doing so, they feared, would leave them vulnerable to a rule in / rule out game.

But if such preparedness was meant to smooth the path of reform, or merely protect the Government, it was a colossal failure on both counts.

The highest profile item of Henry’s 138 recommendations was a call to up the “rent” to obtain bigger slice of the pie from the nation’s mineral bounty. The answer, the Resource Super Profits Tax, made good sense but its political sell-job proved to be beyond the Rudd Government.

Its steep 40 per cent rate on the “super profits” of resource companies enraged miners sparking a well-funded prime-time advertising campaign which plunged the Rudd prime ministership into crisis.

It took a leadership change and a new PM to scrap the RSPT, and negotiate a replacement applying only to coal and iron ore, called the Mineral Resources Rent Tax.

This was the most expensive political retreat in Australian history. Instead of raising $100 billion over ten years, the MRRT will raise something like $40 billion over the same time.

And that’s assuming it becomes law. An exposure draft is currently on the table but the Greens, who from yesterday hold the balance of power in the Senate, and at least one of the independents in the lower house, Andrew Wilkie, want the Government to move back towards the tougher RSPT.

Other less controversial aspects of the Henry Review have been adopted or are in train including a cut to the company income tax rate from 30 cents to 29 cents - timed to coincide with the MRRT introduction 12 months from now - and the idea of a standard $500 annual work expenses deduction without receipts for PAYE taxpayers.

Yasser El-Ansary, tax counsel at the Institute of Chartered Accountants, says industry experts welcome that and other adjustments and remain hopeful that the forum in October can put direction and a bit of oomph back into the reform process.

“We’re at a critical point where some decisive action needs to be taken to really map out where we are going to go in the future,” he says.

“Ken Henry’s done all of the hard work around analysing the current tax and transfer (welfare) system, he’s looked at the ins and outs, critiqued aspects and put forward suggestions of where substantial change needs to take place.”

Mr El-Ansary lists the challenges the Government was responding to when it set up the review as: the ageing population; increasing healthcare costs; pressure on the budget bottom line.

“They all continue to be challenges but we haven’t really taken decisive action to map out the blueprint for how we are going to respond to those challenges and I think the opportunity in October is there for us to do that.”

The Government plans to release a “framework” document next month to provide the tax forum with parameters for discussion.

“That will hopefully give us a good handle on what the federal Government expects October to be all about,” says Mr El-Ansary.

“What we’re unsure about is how committed the Government is to using the October tax forum as an opportunity to build a long-term platform for change.”

It’s a good question and one to which Mr Swan began to speak this week as he talked of a decade-long reform push.

“I’ve delivered four budgets now, and over that time I’ve had a lot of interest groups walk through the door and tell me why they should get a tax cut and how someone else should pay for it,” he said.

“Having everyone in the one room at the tax forum should bring into sharp focus the point that people can’t simply pitch up a tax cut and expect someone else to pay for it.

“If participants work from this basis, then I’m confident we can get some really good progress out of the tax forum.”

Now wouldn’t that be something?

125 comments

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    • Dave says:

      06:11am | 02/07/11

      Time for a flat tax, eh?

    • John A Neve says:

      07:53am | 02/07/11

      No Dave, it is not the time for a “flat tax”.
      But it is the time to seriously look at a Financial Debits Tax, I know of no other cost effective or equitable taxation system. I there is one, can some one please tell me what it is?

    • TheDishpan says:

      09:39am | 02/07/11

      Death tax or estate duty. It’s frictionless as it’s not a penalty for productivity. It’s equitable because only those who can afford it pay. Finally it doesn’t disadvantage anyone.

      A proper land tax system, scrapping stamp duty.

      And finally, a rent tax on all minerals profits, scrapping state royalties.

      Flat tax is a really dumb idea.

    • john says:

      11:07am | 02/07/11

      @Dave was wondering when we were going to get a new tax, its customary to get a new tax every 6 months.

    • Richard says:

      12:00pm | 02/07/11

      Yeah its time for flat tax, that is the fairest way. What’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. 25% flat tax across the board on all earnings above $25,000. Who could complain about that?

      But agreed John A Neve, a Financial Debits Tax is also an excellent and equitable taxation idea, and should be implemented in my opinion to fund the reduction in income tax and the transition to a flat tax rate.

      Only problem with that suggestion though John is that behind the scenes, the corrupt plutarchic bankster cartels actual run the whole show, and they’ll never allow a tax on their unproductive paper shifting activities to be implemented.

      Which is why this Big Business/Big Government/Big Union kleptocracy has to be abolished. They all look out for each other and its the little guys like you and me that get pushed around and stuck with the bill.

    • Spike says:

      04:57pm | 02/07/11

      John A Neve you back? Seano’s alter ego back to defend the pariah of the Punch?

      I’m surprised ATM hasn’t had a go at you.

      You likely don’t remember me, but I’ve been waiting for your return to give you a piece of my mind for one particular nasty comment you left me.

      But seems time heals old wounds and I’ve moved on I guees, also it doesn’t hurt that your pro-Gillard views have little value in the current political climate.

      Welcome back maybe?

    • JP says:

      06:13pm | 02/07/11

      Richard - err… the government and Treasury. There is no way that could result in anything other than a massive Greece-style deficit, because you’ve pegged the only rate BELOW the lowest bracket rate (whilst not actually offering flat tax, because you’ve got a tax free threshold, which is a bracket of 0% tax). Of course, if we could magically generate across-economy growth of 40% this year, it might come close to being a revenue-neutral change.

      China’s aiming for 6 to 8 percent. I don’t like our chances.

      If you want flat tax, you need to accept a much higher rate for anyone under about 75 000 dollars. Thirty eight percent might be more attainable, but it would be politically deadly. Simple a flat tax is, but introducing it certainly isn’t. You are actually better off (as a government, country or citizen) creeping tax rates closer between brackets, and then collapsing brackets over time, thus avoiding massive riots over ‘cost-of-living’ pressures.

      NB: I’m not saying to anyone that 38% flat tax starting from dollar zero is a good thing. Far from it. Just pointing out a progressive tax system, despite it’s so-called “disincentive to thrive” does a good job of getting those who can contribute a bit more to do so.

      I’d actually like to see a move away from personal income tax to personal consumption taxes as the core taxation base, combined with a move away from cash (to avoid the issues of the dark economy, where people make transactions in cash without paper work to avoid tax). That way, you pay tax regardless of where you got the money from when it’s used, and you derive its utility.

    • Seano says:

      06:49pm | 02/07/11

      AtM/Spike - *Yawn* only you could be loony enough to use sock puppets to spit hate and “nasty comments” and then accuse others of using the same batshit crazy tactics.

      Here’s a tip, sane people don’t bother.

      Seek Help!

    • Richard says:

      08:29pm | 02/07/11

      JP, I realise that my proposal of a flat tax rate of 25% on all income over $25k would result in a dramatic drop in tax intake, which is why I endorsed John A Neve’s idea about a Financial Debits Tax to make up the short fall.

      But I do share your preference for consumption based taxes instead of income based taxes~ it actually allows for a lot more growth and productivity in the long run, for reasons articulated in this video blog from Peter Schiff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4KfVM5Ed3c

    • Against the Man says:

      08:52pm | 02/07/11

      @ Spike - I was nice enough to focus on the topic (I think), I’ve moved on from John A a long time ago. But love your Seano is a pariah comment, so true. I’ve noticed lots of people have been dissing Seano, guess he really is a pariah, but when you are the #1 fan of this country’s worst PM, people just use you as a target. Maybe it isn’t fair to Seano but hey people are free to express their views right?

      So while you may have triggered a childish, hissy fit in Seano, I’m going stay out of this, I’ve won the debate. If Seano is going to associate me with everyone who hates him, he clearly has issues.

    • Seano says:

      10:40pm | 02/07/11

      @AtM - Your batshit craziness shines through all of your sock puppets - it always has.

      I don’t know why you bother…oh wait yes I do, you’re a sick, sad, troll.

      Seek Help!

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      04:23am | 03/07/11

      @Seano - heh and for a while I thought I was the only one thinking AtM, Spike, TimB and JimB were all sockpuppets of the same person.

      Glad to see that I’m not the only one!

    • Against the Man says:

      09:00am | 03/07/11

      @ Damian, I’ve said before, I’m sure the Punch can trace the ISPs to see where and who they belong to. I can’t speak for the other anti-Seano fans but you have to face the facts - If you are a JG loving, carbon tax loving idiot who can’t debate than 70% (based on the ALP support polls) of the population will have you on their sights.

      The best part is you can feel the strain, stress and frustation in seano’s replies, even more so as I ignore him and speak to others about him. Like his hero Gilltard he is a loser and all his yelling and repetitive talk can’t hide that - and he knows Australia knows.

      Have a nice sunday! smile

    • Seano says:

      12:35pm | 03/07/11

      @Damain - yes it is quite obvious from the level of batshit craziness in the personal attacks that most of the moronic spite is coming from the same loon. It’s quite sad really.

      @AtM - what a gutless little loon you are hiding behind your keyboard launching your troll like personal attacks through your sock puppets.

      You have no idea what my views are on anything, you lost that in your lunacy long ago.

      BTW nothing quite says crazed frustration like your special brand of name calling, delusional rants, personal attacks and sock puppetry…..

      Seek Help!

    • Against the Man says:

      05:54pm | 03/07/11

      HeHeHe, the best victory is when you get your opponent to back track from their views and break their fragile mental state.

      How so? When a dunce says ‘you don’t know what my views are on anything’ and ‘gutless for hiding behind a keyboard’? Really, I guess some people are starting to back track from their religious support of a certain PM….a very Judas move…....which in itself a sign of true gutlessness I guess. And the person who avoids a direct debate when challenged from behind a keyboard, is that a hero or a the real gutless wonder?

      I’m enjoying the victory and my extensive vocabulary.

      And this reply was not directed at anyone in particular wink

    • Seano says:

      07:16pm | 03/07/11

      I’m sure the voices in your head are in complete agreement with you.

      Seek Help!

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      10:01pm | 03/07/11

      @ATM, checking IP’s doesn’t prove beyond a doubt that its the same person, after all proxies -are- freely available and easy to access, also we both know to find out about your IP that it would require the Punch to do some moderation, and well there is more chance of the second coming than that.

      Also your behavior isn’t working in your favor, I don’t like the ALP but, your carry on on this thread is generating more than a little sympathy from me. No to mention as you’ve already pointed out, this is not the first time you’ve been accused of sockpuppeting.

      @John and Seano I might not always agree with your options, but don’t ever let yourselves be discouraged from expressing them - its both your right and prerogative!

    • Seano says:

      08:33am | 04/07/11

      Thanks Damian.

      It’s amazing how trolls like AtM think people have no right to exist because they have different views. I’m not even that far left (although I do despise the far right as represented by Tony Abbott), I voted for Barry O in NSW and follow more LNP pollies on Twitter than ALP.

      But guys like AtM who scream about Gillard defenders (I’ve barely said anything about Gillard) aren’t interested in what you’ve actually got to say or believe, they just want to shout down the opposition. They think this is how democracy should work, everyone must be in agreement with their narrow, black and white set of views.

      And if you don’t fall into line they spit bile and you and burst into tears when you spit it back because apparently that makes me worse than them.

      Whilst most of these guys are just your typical low life rusted on supporters who can’t think for themselves AtM is special. The level of loopy invective and his campaign of backing himself up with sock puppets does IMO indicate someone with serious mental health issues.

    • Xavier says:

      10:06am | 04/07/11

      Damian people can still be traced via their ISP even when using proxies and it isn’t that hard, I’ve done it as part of my last job.

      Seano you do have a problem, I have read your many posts and you are clearly a hard core Gillard defender and Abbott hater. There is nothing wrong with that but you clearly don’t like it when people point out your follies.

      ATM you are erratic at times but I see your point of view. This government is in big trouble and with good reason.

      I have washed my hands of Labor (I voted for Rudd), will never vote for them and seriously believe the Labor/Greens have already started on the destruction of Australia.

      No matter what happens Labor have already lost the next election whether it is held tomorrow or in two years, so that is why all this talk about policies, opposition policies, blocking legislation is all pointless, Labor is in too deep to dig their way out.

    • RyaN says:

      11:01am | 04/07/11

      Seano = Damian Parkhill

    • Seano says:

      11:14am | 04/07/11

      @Xavier - yet another long time listener, first time poster? Nothing sus in that huh?


      “Seano you do have a problem, I have read your many posts and you are clearly a hard core Gillard defender”

      Then you’re either lying or have an inability to grasp basic concepts. I have rarely said anything about Gillard. And how does having an opinion you disagree with a problem in a democracy? Get a grip.

      “and Abbott hater.”

      No I don’t hate Abbott. There is nothing irrational in my contempt for the man and his idealogy, it’s all been richly earned. His devisive politics, his championing of Work"choices”, his lack of delivery in office, his lack of ideas, his lack of sensible/realistic polices and leadership are all very good reasons for not wanting Abbott as leader of this country.

      If you’d actually read anything I’ve written   you’d know that I’m like many people who’d be happy to look at the a small L liberal party, lead by someone Turnbull. Something that could never happen under the far right Abbott.

      “ATM you are erratic at times but I see your point of view.”

      He rarely expresses an actual point, he spits hate and bile, calls names and attacks people with sock puppets…if you’d actually read any of his posts you’d realise the dude is erratic almost all of the time.

      “No matter what happens Labor have already lost the next election whether it is held tomorrow or in two years”

      What a silly statement, the idea that Abbott can do nothing for the next two and a bit years and then fall over the line is just laughable…so silly it’s almost….AtM worthy…

    • Seano says:

      11:16am | 04/07/11

      RYan = sad troll.

    • Against the Ma says:

      12:19pm | 04/07/11

      @ Damian - IF you have a problem with me and Seano, than you have a problem with many other people and Seano. You can clearly see not many people like him. And the beauty is now we see the pressure mounting on him, first he claims we don’t know his views and now he talks about voting for the Libs. Also Seano became a target when he started saying things like not being confused by the carbon tax or is it a carbon price:).......and started throwing a tantrum and calling everyone who questioned his views a troll or other names…..and he started talking about self harm…....does he sound mentally stable to you? Is this what you are defending?

      If others see a problem with Seano than we all can’t be wrong.

      Anyway what is going on with fuel not being in the carbon tax and all these subsidies? If you tax to impact and take away the impact what is the point? Seano can’t answer that even though he is not confused by the carbon tax….or is it carbon price…..smile

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      12:34pm | 04/07/11

      @Seano

      Your right….... he clearly needs help

    • Seano says:

      12:49pm | 04/07/11

      And lots of it.

    • Azzure says:

      01:52pm | 08/07/11

      Why should I work harder to pay more tax when I use less of the public resources than people who earn less than me and as a result pay less tax. Lets put this in perspective.
      - I PAY out of my own pocket for health insurance and all of my medical expenses, I have never used the public health system since I have been 18 years old. So why am I subsidising the public health system?
      - I PAY duty, licensing, registration, excise etc on my cars and fuel. I believe this is fair because I do use the roads. However why am I now going to be forced to pay a carbon tax which is going to subsidise public transport? I dont use public transport and I dont plan on using it anytime soon.
      - I PAY my own superannuation and will not receive any government assistance in the future, yet im still forced to subsidise the lazy doll bludgers, fund the alcohol habits of the indigenous population and all these other payments which people receive. I dont mind assisting with people who legitimately cannot work and pensioners but the rest can go jump as far as im concerned.
      So it appears I pay out an awful lot, infact by the time I add in GST and all the other indirect taxes, considerably more than half what I earn goes to this incompetent government (approx 60%) just because I work hard strive to better myself.
      We are so sick of paying huge amounts of tax for it to be wasted on crap. If the government was a business it would have failed a long long time ago.

    • Erick says:

      06:22am | 02/07/11

      “It took a leadership change and a new PM to scrap the RSPT, and negotiate a replacement applying only to coal and iron ore, called the Mineral Resources Rent Tax.”

      “Negotiate” is the key word here. Rudd’s arrogance was his mistake - instead of talking to miners and coming up with a reasonable proposal, he unilaterally dictated a harsh and unexpected new regime. Long-term industrial plans were disrupted by the sudden new imposition.

      The Rudd government’s handling of the issue was a disgrace. Arbitrary and contemptous in its attitude, the government refused to even talk about problems with the new proposal.

      One staffer’s comment to a mining industry representative summed up the issue: “The only way you’ll change this policy is to change the government”. Challenge accepted. Bye bye Mr Rudd.

      It wasn’t the mining industry’s lobbyists who won the issue. It was the public perception that Rudd wasn’t giving the miners a fair go - a perception which was perfectly accurate.

      Let’s hope the new PM has learned that arrogance leads to downfall. Oh, did someone say “carbon tax”?

    • Sandy says:

      07:26am | 02/07/11

      Erick, I think your comment re the handling of the RSPT is probably correct, but the actual policy itself in hindsight was right.
      That Tax was for Australia’s future, for our Infrasture, reducing our second economies company tax so that they could strengthen,and for superannation, to benefit the workers and give increased investment in business. All to help Australia when the Miners have finally taken all our minerals or have run out of a market for them.
      I think the miners have had their ‘fair go’  (and I think the figures this week on ownership and the massive profits going overseas have proved) what about a fair go for the Australian people, we will still need to live once the miners have left!

    • Erick says:

      08:15am | 02/07/11

      @Sandy - Yes, I think the basic idea was sound, but the specific proposal was bad, and the implementation was horrible.

      Mining companies have shown that they are willing to negotiate for an acceptable extra level of tax, as most of them came to an agreement with Gillard. It was Rudd’s unilateral imposition of a too-high tax, too fast, and his refusal to budge, that brought him down.

      @AtM - I agree. My point is that it was a stupid thing for Gillard to propose the carbon tax in the first place. Now she’s stuck with it, and it will end her career.

    • persephone says:

      08:32am | 02/07/11

      Gee, AtM, when Howard persisted with his introduction of WorkChoices, despite not taking it to an election and polls showing that it was a stinker of an idea, did you call him ‘arrogant”?

      From memory, he was lauded as a ‘convinction politician’, one who stared down critics and populism for the overall good of the country.

      Of course, action on climate change - a position adopted by both parties - is for the overall good of the world, not just Australia, so the imperative to act, regardless of polls, is even greater.

      If Gillard backed off a carbon price now, you would be pointing to this as evidence that she was poll driven, populist and lacked the courage to do what she thought was necessary.

    • Ripa says:

      08:47am | 02/07/11

      @ Sandy
      Who says we need to live off the miners back? Just because mining is profitable now does not mean we, our govt should not invest in other areas, bitching and complaining that mining companies are not being taxed enough therefore us not being able to invest in new technology is utter stupidity. There lies the problem with this socialist communist government, they have no vision no passion for investment in its people no belief in new technology , they believe in oppression, high taxation, no individual rights or ownership they are evil pure and simple, no communist socialist government has ever produced an energetic happy inventive population.

      What about a fair go on selling our land and our future to over seas mining interests?

    • Tator says:

      09:15am | 02/07/11

      Sandy,
      the concept of a resource rent tax is the correct policy.  What the ALP has done is incorporated their own ideology onto the RSPT without proper consultations on the actual structure of the tax.  The miners suggested the tax themselves but not with the harsh and hypocritical conditions that the ALP imposed ie LTBR being considered a “super profit” when they use that as an acceptable rate of return for the NBN.  Meanwhile the MRRT is better structured but still locked out all of the junior mining companies of the negotiations whilst Gillard only met with BHP, Rio and Xstrata to formulate the tax.
      On top of this you have the constitutional issues with the actual resources being “owned” by the states who will stand up to Canberra in the High Court if their states rights and revenue streams from this are threatened especially when you have Swan threatening to change the agreement on royalties being refunded.

    • Ripa says:

      09:41am | 02/07/11

      @pers
      My god you talk shit, in rivers and tsunamis, climate change? where? the global warming myth is disproven, CO2 as the cause of catastrophic events has been disproven, reputable scientist after scientist has shown that “global warming”, no “climate change” is bullshit, the last 10 years has shown to be cooling, May was the coldest month on record for many places and the coldest for others for 50 years.

      The carbon tax will achieve nothing, it is a socialist tax designed to suppress innovation. Pers, you are the biggest bullshit artist to ever post on the punch. The carbon tax will achieve nothing beneficial to our environment when labor allows coal mining across NSW hello santos and eastern star gas, this is such utter bullshit and you are a bullshit artist pers. End of the world it is!, we need a price on carbon, but labor will allow coal mining across NSW, what a joke, pers you are a joke

    • earl says:

      11:17am | 02/07/11

      @ Persephone

      Why is there an imperative for Australia to act on the carbon tax ‘for the good of the world’ when no one else is doing the same? Furthermore, our action will not reduce significant carbon dioxide emissions on a global scale. Does no one else see that? Its like banning live cattle so Australian cattle are not slaughtered inhumanely but it’s ok for Indian cattle to be slaughtered inhumanely.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:24am | 02/07/11

      @Ripa

      I’m sure I am not alone. Whenever I see the word “communist” to describe the current government my eyes glaze over and I stop reading - I mean what a ridiculous claim to base your analysis on.

      As citizens of the COMMONwealth of Australia all citizens are entitled to a share of the value of the COMMONwealth’s resources.

      I remember not so long ago people would ask what will the Middle East do when the oil runs out? What have they used the oil profits for in terms of the future, when there is no oil?

      What are we, in Australia, doing for our nation’s future when no one wants/needs our resources, or they run out. The mining boom is sucking talent from some regions of Australia to others and one way of compensating non-mining states for training and educating the mining states newly imported work force is to redistribute a portion of the mining windfall.

      It wasn’t so long ago that WA had its hand out and was being kept by the eastern state taxpayers. Time to give back a bit - that’s one reason why we have a federation.

      @Eric

      I agree that Rudd did a terrible job on the RSPT, but I am not convinced that the mining companies (Reinhart etc.) are as as benevolent or reasonable as you make out. Where is the evidence?
      Gillard had no political choice largely due to the mining companies campaign - and she was screwed over by them because she wanted the issue gone. That isn’t the context for reasonable negotiations - and consequently we didn’t get them.

    • persephone says:

      11:57am | 02/07/11

      Tator

      so many misconceptions there!!

      Firstly, what is your idea of proper consultations? The government has spent over a year doing just that. The Henry report was also based - as you yourself point out - on consultation with the industry.

      Secondly, you ignore the fact that the ‘super profit’ kicks in at an effective rate of 10% compared to the present, because of the refunding of royalties.

      Thirdly, who was involved was largely self selecting. The minor companies benefitted the most from the former structure, but showed themselves unwilling to work with the government. Sorry, but if you’ve refused to support a package which benefitted you, it’s a bit late to chuck a sook when you’re then not talked to.

      And the tax as negotiated now won’t apply to them, so why should they be consulted?

      No taxation without representation - and no representation without taxation.

      They dealt themselves out of the game; bit hypocritical to now say they want to be involved.

      And there are no constitutional issues. The states get to charge royalties, the feds levy taxes. If the feds chose to rebate the amount of the royalties as part of this, that does not impinge on the states in anyway.

      If a state - like WA - raises royalties and then expects that it will have no effect on companies because the feds will just refund them automatically, that’s a form of blackmail, and the feds should rightly call them on it.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      12:41pm | 02/07/11

      @Erick-Mining companies paid $9 billion tax on $80 billion profit last decade. According to some sources over 80% of it went overseas too. Meanwhile Australia’s infrastructure crumbles. This sort of situation might be acceptable in Cloud Cuckoo Land where you’re from but not in a modern economy.
      You talk about arrogance, but your posts contain only unquantified bland assertion. Ponder the arrogance of that.

    • luke says:

      01:34pm | 02/07/11

      Gillard is a dishonest untrustworthy person. Especially claiming that a carbon tax is going to stop climate change. The carbon tax is an unecessary burden and an outrageous money grab. The Collection of 11 billion dollars of Australian taxpayers monies for the carbon tax is more than all the governments of the world combined(no other country has a carbon tax). New Zealand’s cost for climate change is about 100 dollars a year per household, yet in Australia we are being slugged 900 dollars a year minimum.

      What is the purpose of a carbon tax other than to force up the cost of living. Companies are already investing in cleaner technology, we have solar, wind, geothermal, wave technology investments at this very moment. Just last week Gillard cut the ribbon for the beginning construction of the world’s largest solar power plant, all done without a carbon tax.

      You can buy hybrid cars, electric cars, energy efficient household appliances. All created without a carbon tax.

      There are Australian companies already operating at carbon neutral levels, in fact News Limited owner of The Punch states this very fact on their websites. All done without a carbon tax.

      The lunacy of the Gillard government has no limits, you only have to see the way they destroyed the lives and hopes of the cattle industry families. What insane government would cancel a 400 million dollar industry without investigating and trying to rectify the animal welfare concerns first? What insane government wants a carbon tax to fight climate change at the same time they announce they are increasing coal exports to China, a country which emits more carbon in a week than Australia does in a year? Answer, a Gillard government.

      When a carbon tax is introduced manufacturing jobs will go overseas as will carbon emissions. The CEO of QAL(Queensland Aluminium) said this week they will be sending raw materials to China for manufacturing and import Aluminium back into Australia because the costs will be to high in Australia.

      Can the tax before all is lost, it has nothing to do with climate change.

    • Against the Man says:

      01:44pm | 02/07/11

      No, if she backed out from the carbon tax it would show us:

      1) She is listening to the majority
      2) She is in charge not bob Brown
      3) She actually has 1/2 a brain.

      Sorry pers, scrapping the bottom of the barrel I see. The point is she is going to soldier on and destroy her career and the ALP. You would be silly to believe otherwise. Anyway I believe the next poll will seal someone’s fate…..........let us wait and see smile

      Oh and pers while I do enjoy your comments (seriously you seem the more enjoyable of the lot so take it as a compliment) if you want to do the Howard comparison thing wait till Gilltard wins a majority government and lasts at least 8 years at the top job.

    • Richard says:

      01:57pm | 02/07/11

      No. The mere existence of profits, whether they be “super” or not, does not entitle the government to an unearned slice of them.

      Its like that little red hen book I used to hate as a kid, I bet that’s how someone like Twiggy feels.

      “Who wants to help me explore for undiscovered mineral deposits?” he would say. “Not I” said the government, “Not I”, said the taxpayer.

      “Who want to help me find the capital to develop a mine?” said Twiggy
      “Not I”, said the government, “Not I,” said the taxpayer.

      “Who wants to take a big risk with this capital and possibly lose everything including the shirts on their backs?” said Twiggy.
      “Not I,” said the government, “Not I,” said the taxpayer.

      “Who wants to find the right contractors and employees, organise them to build and operate this mine, and pay all their wages?” said Twiggy.
      “Not I,” said the government, “Not I,” said the taxpayer.

      “Right then, I’ll do it myself”, said Twiggy. And he did.

      But now its all been done, all that hard work, all that nerve-racking risk. NOW, wouldn’t you know it, who wants a slice of the profits?

      “I do!” screams the government. “I do!” yelps the taxpayer.

      You’re all greedy arseholes. I don’t have one single share in a mining company. I’ve never had a job in the mining industry. I have no connection at all to the mining industry. All the vast magnitudes of wealth the mining industry has brought into this country has completely bypassed me, I haven’t benefited at all.

      But guess what, that’s my fault. I had a chance to skill myself up to get a job in the mining industry. I had a chance to buy shares in mining companies. That I didn’t do it is no-one’s fault but my own.

      But at least I have the good grace not to whinge and moan and bitch about it. And at least I’m not evil and greedy enough to try and steal wealth away from them without earning it. You guys need to take a good hard look at yourself and ask how on earth the blatant theft of another’s wealth can be justified, majority will or no.

    • Against the Man says:

      03:28pm | 02/07/11

      LMAO, no one is listening to your minority view, thanks for playing smile

    • persephone says:

      03:35pm | 02/07/11

      Earl

      by nobody else, you mean at least thirty other developed nations, including most of our major trading partners?

    • Sony b Goode says:

      04:32pm | 02/07/11

      There is a fly that lays it’s eggs beneath the flesh of living animals, so it’s maggots can feast on fresh meat. In the same way socialists justify theft of others prosperity, because it’s for the helpless children.

      Gillard is a Fabian socialist, instead of revolution she believes in destroying the system from within with a thousand cuts. This red harpy masquerading as a suffragette will lie and say anything to push her agenda of reducing everyone to the mean, she is Australia’s answer to Chavez.

      Gillard is a tricky liar, dishonest, deceitful and rotten to the core.

    • L. says:

      04:35pm | 02/07/11

      Pewrs said:

      “by nobody else, you mean at least thirty other developed nations, including most of our major trading partners?”

      Ok..lets have a look at that statement:

      Theis is our top 10 trading partners:


      Hardly what any reasonable person would call “most of our major trading partners”...

      1.China
      2. Japan
      3. United States
      4. Singapore
      5. United Kingdom
      6. Republic of Korea
      7. New Zealand
      8. Thailand
      9. Germany
      10. Malaysia

      http://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/focus/081201_top10_twoway_exports.html

      Now Pers, which of these have a carbon tax, as per Earl’s question..??

      1.China….No
      2. Japan…No
      3. United States….Not federally, No.
      4. Singapore…No
      5. United Kingdom…2013, So no.
      6. Republic of Korea…No
      7. New Zealand…Yes
      8. Thailand…No
      9. Germany…Yes
      10. Malaysia….No.

    • Condor says:

      04:43pm | 02/07/11

      Richard
      You said: “The mere existence of profits, whether they be “super” or not, does not entitle the government to an unearned slice of them.”

      You’re wrong. That is the very basis of our company taxation system and, analogously, our personal taxation system (income - expenses = taxable income).

      The rest of your argument is voided because of your initial mistake.

    • Ripa says:

      04:45pm | 02/07/11

      @ Blind Freddy

      You cant deny gillard has been a long time socialist, calling her government one is accurate. The arrogance and the lies are not something anyone who believes in democracy would push. Socialism is a dead end history has proved it. People who peddle socialism as a viable government are quite thick.

    • persephone says:

      05:22pm | 02/07/11

      Richard

      given that Twiggy and his companies haven’t paid any tax at all, let alone being in the running to pay a super tax, I think he’s a poor example to use.

      And you ignore the fact that the mining tax as originally proposed saw the government taking a share of the risk of development. Indeed, as they are going to refund the royalties, even where a mine isn’t turning a profit, they still do.

      L

      thank you for demonstrating that Earl is wrong when he says no one else is acting.

      Ripa

      and what about Tony Abbott’s socialist solution to climate change?

    • MarK says:

      05:54pm | 02/07/11

      A lot of people in this thread are confusing their terms.

      For a start it was “negotiation” that got Gillard to here on the mining tax fiasco.

      Like all things she does it is capitulation.

      Gillard ending up with a sloppy deal that the miners loved because they knew it sheltered them from state royalty rises. It was a farce and done in great haste by Gillard personally in an effort to win an election.

      Whatever it takes in it’s worst form.

      Now you get woman like pers that assume that WA is blackmailing the Commonwealth. She conveniently twists the truth and lies about events to shield Gillard from her incompetence and to attempt to deflect the obvious deficiencies in her capitulation agreement with the miners.

      Fail by both woman, lies and spin. It is both of the womans modus operandi to confuse the issue.

      Look at the other “negotiations” Gillard has done. Name one that has worked well or is a success.

      Just one.

      Her worth is overestimated.

      Her skill sets are inflated.

      She is out of her depth and as the Malaysian deal shows by pre announcing is so stupid tactically she concedes any and all ground to win a 24 hour news cycle.

      What a way to run a country.

    • persephone says:

      05:55pm | 02/07/11

      None, as in:

      ‘There are carbon pricing policies operating in many countries and planned or piloted schemes in others—both nationally and targeting specific sectors. The EU has had an emissions trading scheme since 2005, which covers half a billion people. Schemes also operate in Switzerland and New Zealand. In Asia, Japan and South Korea are piloting voluntary emissions trading schemes. South Korea also introduced economy-wide mandatory emissions trading legislation into its Parliament in April 2011 to commence in 2015 and is seeking to pass this legislation this year.

      Carbon taxation is in place in the UK, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland and Canada—and under discussion in Japan and South Africa. India has a clean energy tax on coal that will raise half a billion dollars of revenue annually for clean technology development. The EU is considering an additional carbon tax to cover, from 2013, many sources of emissions which are currently not included in its emissions trading scheme.

      There are active carbon price policies at the state and city level in many counties. China has announced it will introduce emissions trading progressively, commencing in a number of key cities and provinces, including Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong (covering well over 100 million people). In the US, a coalition of eastern states (with a combined population of around 40 million) participate in an emissions trading scheme covering the power sector. California—the world’s eighth largest economy—will start a carbon trading scheme in 2012, and is working with four Canadian provinces to progressively establish a regional trading market from 2012 onward.’

      Given our scheme isn’t in place yet, it’s fair to also include other countries who are at the same stage of development, surely?

      http://www.climatechange.gov.au/en/government/international/global-action-facts-and-fiction/cc-countries-acting-now.aspx

    • bbob says:

      06:06pm | 02/07/11

      LMAO is a prime example of what an idiot with a computer can produce.

      Please line up behind Seano the idiot and wait your turn to be laughed at by everyone.

      The ALP fan base is full of idiots and sadly they don’t have the combined IQ of a chicken smile

    • Richard says:

      06:33pm | 02/07/11

      No Condor, my argument is not voided in the slightest.

      So we have a social contract that companies, because they enjoy being able to do business in a stable environment, with the rule of law and enforceable contracts, but pay tax. The current corporate tax rate is 30%, and all companies must pay.

      So the mining companies pay their corporate tax, like every other company, and that is fine. But what’s not fine is this idea that, even though they’re paying the appropriate amount of tax, they still have “too much profit” left over, and so that in itself is justification for increasing taxation on them and them alone.

      But that’s not justification. The existence of profits does not justify extra taxation above the normal rate just because you or anybody else deems them “excessive” or “super profits”. It is not appropriate for the government to be in the business of deciding how much different companies and industries are allowed to earn, that smacks of central planning, which ultimately causes inefficiency and costs more money than it raises in the long run.

      There is an excellent article in The Daily Reckoning Today, which reiterates some of the important points I have been making on The Punch recently regarding the true nature of profits, which are really nothing less than a vital form of communication that aggregates and synthesizes all knowledge across the scope of a market and signals to its participants how they may most valuably serve one another’s interests and needs., and why interventionist socialist government policies to meddle with them are such a bad idea. Please have a read of it, you will find it most valuable: http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/anti-government-socialism/2011/07/02/comment-page-1/#comment-198290

    • luke says:

      07:04pm | 02/07/11

      persephone you say, ‘There are carbon pricing policies operating in many countries and planned or piloted schemes in others—both nationally and targeting specific sectors etc…’

      You have perfectly highlighted why a carbon tax will not alter climate change, with all these countries already with an emissions trading system in place the world’s carbon emissions have not decreased.

      What is the purpose of a carbon tax if it is not going to alter climate change?

      I think it is ideology gone mad!

    • L. says:

      07:18pm | 02/07/11

      Pers said

      “thank you for demonstrating that Earl is wrong when he says no one else is acting.”

      No Pers, you said most of our major trading partners have a carbon tax… 2 out of 10 is not “most”, is it?

    • Seano says:

      09:08pm | 02/07/11

      bbob/atm/spike and all your other batshit crazy sockpuppets….

      Seek Help!

    • TAtor says:

      09:16pm | 02/07/11

      Persephone,
      considering that the government tried to impose a Brown tax on the mining sector only after the mining sector had taken all the risk and without fronting up the cash for their 40% equity. 
      Professor Sinclair Davidson from RMIT has stated:
      “The first problem with the RSPT related to the fact that the government would not be providing any capital for their ‘share’ of projects. Miners would have to raise all the capital before any project could be undertaken and pay the full cost of capital. The design of the RSPT was such that the government only provided for the cost of risk-free capital. Mining projects, however, are not risk-free and the miners would have to bear the cost of the risk premium on the government’s share of the investment. It is important to note that this criticism of the RSPT is independent of any criticism of taxing rent. This was a design flaw in the actual RSPT. The RSPT would have taxed the risk premium in addition to taxing ‘rent’”.
      Now this also brought up the risk premium and considering that the RSPT started on the LTBR, it meant that the no one would have financed any mining venture that had any form of risk as investors would just invest in government bonds to get the same return Professor Davidson also stated on this factor :
      “If financial institutions wanted to lend money in order to earn risk-free returns all they need do is buy government bonds. It is not clear that there would be any benefit to banks in lending money to miners at risk-free rates as opposed to buying bonds. The advantage to banks of actually buying government bonds is that rating agencies and other banks are more likely to recognise a government bond as being risk-free as opposed to a loan to a mining project. “
      Now the ALP had a perfect blueprint for implementing this tax in the PRRT which had extensive consultations with industry and was implemented without any of the controversy of the RSPT.  What the ALP did with the RSPT is a dictate and defend move and it failed.

    • jf says:

      10:01am | 03/07/11

      Richard says:01:57pm | 02/07/11
      Neatly and elegantly put.

    • Psychic says:

      11:17am | 03/07/11

      Looking into my crystal ball, I foresee persephone no longer returning to this thread…

    • Condor says:

      08:01pm | 03/07/11

      Richard, you are wrong again.

      Most conmpanies create their own products and make a profit off them. Mining companies do not create the resources they use (ie their products). They use the resources of the people of the Commonwealth of Australia.

      Under current operation they pay royalties to the States for the use of these resources. Under the Henry Tax Review the mining companies asked for this system to be reformed and placed under the ambit of the Federal Government.

      They asked for the mining tax. They only started complaining when Labor made the interest rate higher at which they will pay.

      Finally, when one sector is booming it would be remiss of the government to not reign it in and prevent any Dutch Disease. Moreso when that sector is using the finite resources owned by the people of a nation which can be used to invest in that nation.

    • Tom says:

      09:00am | 04/07/11

      Condor, you have missed Richard’s point. For years and years, mining has been in the doldrums. There was no-one saying it is ours, pay Australian workers, supply capital and pay super taxes.

      All of a sudden the mining company makes a good return and the “envy brigade” of parasite socialists clamber around for an easy buck and a chance to hijack a good life without doing any work.

      Sorry Condor your views represent the bludger’s viewpoint. My advice is go out and start a business the same way as Twiggy did. But your lot are too lazy for that.

    • Erick says:

      08:18am | 02/07/11

      Julia’s reasons may boil down to political cowardice, but her actions are arrogant in appearance and effect. But she could have stood up to the Greens - I seriously doubt that they would have supported an Abbott government, even if they didn’t get their new tax toy.

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      11:08am | 02/07/11

      One things certain brown and his greens will be crushed at the next elections together with independants.
      Aussies have seen the shit that these pricks are causing and learnt a big lesson from it.

    • nihionin says:

      11:36am | 02/07/11

      Agreed Erick on all counts.

    • Kathy says:

      08:23pm | 02/07/11

      Despite being a Coalition voter, I had hopes that Julia would be so much better than Kevin. He was arrogant in the extreme to the miners & backed away in cowardice from his own convictions on climate change.  If there was indeed a moral challenge (debatable) he was not up to it.  Julia sadly has let all of us down on all counts.  I am a cynic but I admit it, a woman in the top job was briefly appealing.  Now I realise what a careerist she is, willing to roll over & have her tummy tickled by everybody.  There is a name for that but I am not going to use it. Stand up to the Greens, woman, what are they going to do???

    • Tim says:

      08:53am | 02/07/11

      Erick,
      How can you say the miners were not consulted when they themselves proposed a resource rent tax in consultations for the Henry review?
      This had nothing to do with the tax itself and everything to do with the original rate it was set.
      The $20 million spent by the mining industry was the best money they have ever spent to convince the ignorant that they would pack up and leave Australia. If only Rudd had the balls to stick with it.

    • Erick says:

      09:57am | 02/07/11

      “This had nothing to do with the tax itself and everything to do with the original rate it was set.”

      Which is exactly what the miners weren’t consulted about. And when they tried to talk about it, Rudd told them to rack off.

      If “Rudd had the balls to stick with it”, he’d have been in the same position as Gillard is today with her carbon tax. And he’d either have been knifed, or lost the next election to Tony Abbott.

      Either way, both Labor PMs did wrong and both of them are paying the price.

    • Nick says:

      09:41am | 02/07/11

      @nossy..the only people who take Laurie seriously any more are the rusted on Laborites like yourself.He has lost all his credibility as an unbiased journalist and isn’t ashamed to show it.

    • Peter says:

      09:45am | 02/07/11

      Who cares what Laurie thinks.You know Labor is on the nose when even Ita Buttrose thinks Gillard stinks.http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/even_ita_has_had_enough_of_julia/

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      11:15am | 02/07/11

      nossy ,
      So you are talking about arses now.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:54am | 02/07/11

      Thanks for the heads-up. Great read. My prediction is that the media will be (self) shamed into doing their jobs properly ( to avoid any further loss of integrity) and start scutinising the Liberals as well as Labor as the next election nears.

      Just wait now for Tony’s fans to start accusing Laurie Oakes of being a Labor hack. Then again, most wont read it.

      The emperor has no clothes!

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      12:31pm | 02/07/11

      Morning Nosthow

      Sad but true the majority of Australians believe that Gillard’s introduction of the carbon tax was forced upon her by none other than the Greens. We were told that a Carbon tax would be introduced to cut carbon emissions and those of us that wanted to protect the planet for future generations went along with Gillard Labor and the Greens. Now the majority don’t want a carbon tax because we have realized for ourselves that it isn’t a guarantee it will cut back carbon emissions. It then seemed the Gillard Labor Govt were talking carbon tax not to cut back carbon emissions but for compensation. Wealth distribution!

      Before the carbon tax we were grappling over the RSPT which at first sounded the best thing since sliced bread. When Swan first sold it as; “the minerals belonged to the people and naturally should have a share of the profits, we applauded. Suddenly those that really mattered were against the RSPT and when give more information we became apprehensive. Along came Gillard who watered it down to a MRRT. The people are still not certain what the MRRT will actually do for them as the Gillard/Swan deal was settled with only the 3 biggest Mining Companies.

      Just when the majority of Australians have managed to get this Gillard Labor Minority Govt on the back foot for all their misdeeds you and people like Laurie Oakes, Peter Van Onselen in the today’s Australian were quick to begin criticizing Tony Abbott and the Coalition. Please give us some breathing space and allow us to enjoy seeing this Minority Govt squirm. Yes you can say that through Tony Abbott the majority have the Govt where we want them to be but because it was done through the Polls is of great satisfaction to us. It is like the people have had their say!

      I think people like your good self, Laurie Oakes, Peter Van Onselen etc are already bored and anxiety have set in to see what will become of Julia Gillard and the Labor Party. I think if the people can watch patiently for this Minority Govt to unravel for the worse, you guys can wait in due time for Tony Abbott and the Coalition to give you what you want. We also want to be assured that the Coalition led by Tony Abbott can handle the job before the next election which it now seems 2 bloody years away.

    • nihonin says:

      01:25pm | 02/07/11

      Heya nossy, love the opening line from Laurie, DURING the week, Tony Abbott lavished praise on a company investing $50 million in a recycling plant which “will convert garbage into power” and then he goes on to say that’s pretty much what Tony is doing.  Would be much funnier if Julia wasn’t doing her comedy routine in ‘how to turn power into garbage’ on the opposite stage.  mwahahaha

    • Harquebus says:

      02:33pm | 02/07/11

      Yeah, well, Laurie Oakes doesn’t know what he is talking about either and what he does know, he doesn’t tell.

    • nossy says:

      04:42pm | 02/07/11

      @Nick, Peter, Rosie and others - I hope you were cheering for Laurie during the 2010 election when his revelations nearly brought Labor to its knees ? Of course you were !  hahah Yes but Labor has ONE HUGE ELECTORAL ASSET - and that asset is TONY ABBOTT ! I mean how he lost the 2010 election is just mind boggling - and of course we all expect a repeat come late 2013 ! Ohh how sweet it is !

    • Cate P says:

      09:57am | 02/07/11

      Business owners have suddenly realised that what Abbott has been saying is true - this govt is a quite scary loose cannon in which Bob Brown has too much say.  The complete ban on live cattle export out of the blue without consultation with exporters or with our trading partner has turned into a financial and diplomatic nightmare. Ludwig’s manifest ignorance of his porfolio is staggering.  What if they decide to shut down other export industries in the same way?

    • persephone says:

      03:41pm | 02/07/11

      ‘Out of the blue’? There were plenty of commentators at the time saying the government had taken too long to act!

      If someone has a license to do something, and they breach the conditions of that license, whoever is overseeing it has every right to withdraw it immediately - particularly when, in this case, the Minister sought a guarantee that the conditions could be met, and was told he couldn’t have one.

      In other words: the cattle industry had a license to export, based on various conditions. It was shown that they were not meeting these conditions. The Minister asked if they could guarantee that these conditions would be met in future (and thus waited a couple of days before acting).

      The cattle industry came back and said that, no, they couldn’t guarantee that the terms of their license would be adhered to.

    • Cate P says:

      05:33pm | 02/07/11

      which commentators Persephone?

    • MarK says:

      06:02pm | 02/07/11

      Yes pers out of the blue.

      It is a classic tale of reactionary knee jerk politics mixed in with panic that mark this governments rule.

      It is a disaster.

      It has potentially shut a whole industry down.

      Not suspended it. Shut it.

      You really have no clue do you? You do not realise that when you threaten a nations food security they will look elsewhere to fill the gap.

      Plenty to read up on pers.

      The fallout from this atrocity has only begun. A typical overreaction of a moribund government to try and keep 24 hours in the news on as even keel as possible.

      We now have an industry laying off workers and going from producers and earners of wealth to a group of special welfare recipients.

      They laughed at Ludwig when he said they were doing it to make the industry sustainable. Laughed at his spin as I laugh at yours. Ludwig is a classic case of a job for the boys man aided and abetted by Gillard getting something so wrong peoples lives and business are being ruined before our eyes.

      I am appalled by the waste and wrecking this woman can seemingly do at the drop of a hat.

      Listen to the people that have their lives ruined by this decision. Read the full story how it all came about.

      What a foul creature Gillard is.

    • LMAO says:

      10:51am | 02/07/11

      Ernst and Young said Mr Abbott’s plan ‘‘would create no immediate risks to competitiveness’’ but was unlikely to reduce emissions at the least cost and ran the risk it would blow the Coalition’s allocated budget.
      Saul Eslake, said Mr Abbott was attacking economists because he was frustrated ‘‘he can’t find a single economist in Australia who supports his policy’‘.

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      03:47pm | 02/07/11

      Tony Abbott can say and do whatever he likes but at the end of the day it is the people that has the last say.

      After Ross Garnault’s and other high profile people preaching to us in favour of the carbon tax, the care factor has disappeared and all the majority would like is a chance to swing our baseball bats at this non working Minority Govt and swing hard it will be.

      Economists, climate change believers and the media criticizing Tony Abbott is the least of our worries, we want Julia Gillard and her team out for putting us through anxious times. I think of the 17 days Oakeshott and Windsor put us through when all the time they were going to back Gillard.

    • MarK says:

      11:18am | 02/07/11

      “The spectre of a double-dip global recession has also re-emerged especially as the last century’s engine room, the consumer-driven US economy hits its credit card limit again with public debt now approaching 100 per cent of GDP.”

      You mean Barnaby was right after all. Obama seems to think so too.

      Makes all those who criticised him look a bit foolish now eh.

      Apologies will be forthcoming I am sure.

    • Gatekeeper says:

      04:40pm | 02/07/11

      Bush incompetence
      As Bush said
      I’m responsible, but thanks for blaming the black guy.

    • MarK says:

      05:45pm | 02/07/11

      Is Obama black?

      OMFG when did this happen? I missed that memo. I just thought he was a idiot but now you tell me he is a black idiot? Well there you go.

      By the way son I never said I blamed Obama for the debt level. I wasn’t blaming anyone for the US debt issue.

      I was merely pointing out, quite reasonably and correctly,  that the president of them thar United States has also said they could default on their debt. When Barnaby said that he was called lots of nasty names.

      Gosh darn and golly but you you sure went off on a tangent though.

      Thanks for playing you playa you.

      Now you have 2 things to say sorry for. Chop chop. Say sorry.

    • Richard says:

      06:56pm | 02/07/11

      Yes, that’s right MarK. Barnaby was right, I’d love to see a YouTube video made up of all Barnaby’s statements that were derided at the time, with all the yabbering bien pensant reporters mocking him for it, only for him to have been vindicated by the course of events 100%.

      It was actually really despicable the way he was hounded out of the Finance portfolio, for simply having the foresight to realise that the sovereign debt situation in the world was unsustainable and for having the guts to speak up about it before anyone else did.

      I defended Barnaby Joyce vociferously at the time, because I also could foresee the impending European sovereign debt crisis that was about to unfold, and the looming American debt and currency crisis that is steadily getting worse and worse as well.

      But I was a lone voice. I really think a lot of these journalists do more harm than good, and they really ought to have a bit of contrition about them, they ought to feel a bit of shame, considering the disgraceful treatment the dished out to Senator Joyce, who ultimately has been proven by history to be far more intelligent and insightful than the lot of them.

    • St. Michael says:

      10:23pm | 02/07/11

      Don’t be surprised at journalists doing more harm than good.  Most of them simply do not understand how monetary policy operates.  They are only there for Tanner’s “sideshow”.

      On the other hand, I’d guess there’d be a group of politicians—both sides of the line—who don’t understand how monetary policy operates, either.  That includes the Liberals, because they aren’t standing behind Joyce’s predictions either when he makes them or when they’re proved right.  This is particularly so in the US, where (I think) Ron Paul tells a story about a sitting Congressman who asked him whether a US dollar could still be redeemed for gold out of the US’s gold reserves.  (The answer, boys and girls, is no—there isn’t a single currency left on the planet backed by anything except the US dollar, and the US dollar went off the gold standard under Nixon.)

      It’s a great pity that we are more educated about, and give more of a shit as a country about 2,000-odd Captain Bligh re-enactment enthusiasts rocking up at Christmas Island than we do about the engine that runs the financial heart of the country.

    • Sony b goode says:

      11:30am | 02/07/11

      The only tax reform we need is to move to a flat rate tax, and put an end to the socialist feasting on the corpse of prosperity.

      The public needs to be constantly reminded that only the private sector creates wealth and the the governments public service does not create any wealth, but rather crowds out the prosperity creation of the private world.

      Government food production in the leftist world has always resulted in queues and starvation, why do people think the government is any more capable of running a health system without queues? Unfetered demand and finite funding are a recipe for failure.

      We need a flat rate tax to put an end to socialism and it’s fake compassion, it’s waste and squandering and it’s never-ending war on prosperity.

    • Harquebus says:

      12:21pm | 02/07/11

      “can’t simply pitch up a tax cut and expect someone else to pay for it”. Politicians wages are a different story.

    • so worthy says:

      01:02pm | 02/07/11

      It is Labor idealogy and policy to insult and abuse when you have nothing credible to say,which is all the time,Labor 26% avg across the board,keep it up moron it does more good than bad for LNP,thanks for the help,take your meds

    • RJB says:

      01:20pm | 02/07/11

      Everytime time the pompous fool twirls the baton in front of his beloved Labor party by attacking Tony Abbott, he never allows publication of reader comments. Oak barrel and Farr are going through terrible heartache with the release of every recent opinion poll.

    • NigelC says:

      01:37pm | 02/07/11

      Your comment:Normally I can’t be bothered responding to the crap that you write but the article you refer to also accused Gillard of continuing “to stumble from one mess to another”, and states that “Oppositions, like governments, should be held to account, but that will not happen while the Gillard administration continues to appear totally dysfunctional.”; and also states that “Gillard’s problems are mainly the result of political ineptitude”. 
      The article did quite rightly give Abbot a kick but it was equally balanced by the shellacking given to Gillard.  In your feeble words, Ohhh how sweet it is!

    • nossy says:

      09:56pm | 02/07/11

      @NigelC - kisses there Nigel - bloody big effort you put in fella - I am truly humbled - look forward to your next “response” - when your Mummy isnt using her PC !  hahahahahhah

    • jb says:

      02:13pm | 02/07/11

      Oh yeah Crusty rolled gold old fella, if you had of read the whole article instead of just what was highlighted in rusty red you would have seen these classics from red Laurie himself, and I quote:
      “Gillard’s problems are mainly the result of political ineptitude, not the numbers in the house”.
      or this cracker…
      “Oppositions, like governments, should be held to account, but that will not happen while the Gillard administration continues to appear totally dysfunctional”.
      and of course this rolled gold,
      “But this optimistic view assumes that Gillard will suddenly stop being tone deaf politically”.
      And naturally the conclusion of a horror story is always the most mind numbing!
      “After her silly attempt on Thursday to back away from her previous admission that the proposed carbon price is a tax, I wouldn’t put a lot of money on it”.
      Yep Crusty
      Laurie really drove the ‘slipper’ into Abbott, shame he didn’t extract it from Juliar the Muggers posterior first hey old man, but never expect the truth to get in the way of some good old propaganda from the dried up tossed out old adman himself.
      You still trying to get that government account back hey crusty, with the excrement that drips out of your mouth and onto the keyboard like a slobbery old Saint bernard to old to toil in the snow good luck with that pal…

    • nossy says:

      06:27pm | 02/07/11

      @jb - g’day jb - well you know me jb - paid wages, taxes,  and costs and if I was lucky the few shillings left over I called “profit” ! Retired now jb. Are you enjoying being home ?

    • jb says:

      08:00pm | 02/07/11

      Thanks Crusty old timer, it’s great to be home, when I am home I am on holiday, unfortunately my beloved film industry was one of the casualties of the red headed mugger and her stimulus packages, she likes those big packages hey Crusty? Few shillings left alright I don’t have to work until next year sometime so if you see me on my stand up paddling past call me over for a swift one! Thankfully I bought my retirement island on the river before your disgrace managed to slip on in but unfortunately the way all of their buddies and their wealth distribution works my wages have halved over the years with the way the old Ozzy is going.
      Could have had the rest of my life off if old Swanny had of worked out how to smooth the economy, that old ASX Crusty just imagine if Juliar and Swanny weren’t looking after things then you would have not only had a nice little retirement egg but you would have had something left over for your first wife and the kids hey Crusty…
      Sake and sushi sometime old guy, love to hear some of your war stories again and why you feel so ripped off by the Libs…

    • Condor says:

      02:18pm | 02/07/11

      Leaving the GST out of the reform agenda was the first mistake. Speaking as a tax professional, the best tax system would be to raise the tax free threshold to $30k, reduce the personal tax rate to 20% (regardless of income) and reduce company tax to 20%.

      This is the most equitable tax system and the easiest to administer.

      The next mistake was backing down on the original mining tax. The miners asked for a similar system in submissions to the Henry review. They only whinged when Labor beefed it up a little (they only increased the interest rate and lowered the threshold at which it will operate - but considering it was the miners who originally drafted it you’d expect them to be more generous).

      Backing down to the miners was the second big mistake and shows how gutless this government has been.

      The only decent reform Labor has enacted is around Maanaged Investment Trusts and withholding taxes. But it’s still been slow.

    • Seano says:

      06:53pm | 02/07/11

      I wonder if they will discuss the “black economy” at this tax summit.

      The GST was supposed to end it. But walk into many shops and transactions aren’t recorded, call a tradie and you’ll get offered two prices.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      08:27pm | 02/07/11

      The ATO needs more sting or entrapment operations and utterly savage penalties for tax avoidance and non compliance. Not paying taxes is a growth industry in Australia and needs to be stamped out completely, root and branch.
      A financial debits tax would help solve the problem.

    • Seano says:

      10:48pm | 02/07/11

      No one seems to be talking about the black economy at all. It’s like it’s accepted and the ATO aren’t going to bother so no one has to worry.

      I like the idea of a financial debits tax, even crime would be taxed! lol.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:00am | 03/07/11

      Seano,
      I you think it through, a Financial Debits Tax would eliminate the “black economy”. Once the existing free money was gone and that would not take long. Some one some where would have to draw down on their financial institution and pay the Financial Debits Tax. End of “black economy”.

    • jf says:

      12:49pm | 03/07/11

      Do you reckon that the tax lost through tradies operating within the “black economy” is more or less than the waste through the BER, insulations bats and other schemes?

    • Seano says:

      01:11pm | 03/07/11

      What stops people just deailing in cash though. There’d still be some black economy wouldn’t there?

    • Seano says:

      03:02pm | 03/07/11

      The BER wasn’t a waste. Sorry, I’m not interested in silly off topic rhetoric.

    • John A Neve says:

      03:43pm | 03/07/11

      Seano,

      In answer to your question; it matters not how much a person has hidden under their bed. Sooner or later it must run out.
      Then they have to draw down on their financial institution. Then the FDT bites.

    • Seano says:

      04:16pm | 03/07/11

      Is an FDT in use anywhere else in the world?

    • Against the Man says:

      05:57pm | 03/07/11

      Only a brain washed ALP moron with his head so far up Gilltard’s arse that he can taste her liver would believe the BER isn’t a waste. Do you know the number of schools with a new study hall but no internet access or library upgrades? I guess a ‘real’ teacher would know.

    • Seano says:

      07:15pm | 03/07/11

      Sorry AtM this is a conversation for grown ups.

    • CoyMark says:

      08:21am | 04/07/11

      I’ve noticed the return of John A Neve seems to be very convenient to Seano. Just when Seano is getting it from all directions, John makes an ‘appearance’ to save his buddy and they have a intellectual conversation to boost Seano’s credibility. Seano and John A Neve are the same person, a nice trick Seano but some of us are smart enough to pick up the similarities in your posts.

      You have been found out Seano.

    • Seano says:

      10:17am | 04/07/11

      Only crazy people like you AtM think that using sock puppets strengthens their debate. I couldn’t be bothered.

      We’re not even backing each other up in this conversation genius we’re just talking about different tax models. FFS. You may accuse me of being Shane AtM.

      Seek Help!

    • michael j says:

      11:16pm | 02/07/11

      So in some sort of time/space theory we/some peoples may be able to get a tax cut while getting a new CARBON TAX ,sorry im not smart enough to be a fn wombat so you will have to run that by me again,,and my few friends wonder why i laugh when they ask me if getting solar panel’s was the smartest thing they ever did ,,someone say daylight tax,,,,,,,,

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      02:11am | 03/07/11

      Taxed to the eyeballs !!! even for the air we breathe, I just loathe the Idea that I,ve got to pay extra taxes to prop up the governments’ gross waste, incompetence, rorts, mistakes and buying votes from delusional bludgers who think it’s their right to suck up dole perpetually without concience or shame.

    • nossy says:

      08:58am | 03/07/11

      “Jesus drop kick me through the goal posts of life” I exclamed Mark as I read with utter disbelief that Tony “Paranoid” Abbott has now muzzled his front bench as per Peter Van Onselens article attached. Good grief muzzled from saying what ? None of Abbotts team say anything remotely intelligent anyway. No what it is viewers he has become so paranoid with regard his team that he is frightened they will “white ant” him !  hahahahh Not too hard to do given Tones hopeless track record revealed in all its glory yesterday by Laurie Oakes article ! Malcolm Turnbull must be chuckling to himself seeing “Toxic Tony” jump at his own shadow some 2 and a quarter years out from an election -  ohhh how sweet it is !
      http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/commentary/tony-abbott-sniffs-the-wind-and-muzzles-his-front-bench/story-e6frgd0x-1226085894549

    • The Badger says:

      10:15am | 03/07/11

      What a surprise surprised

      Dr NO’s team have NOthing to say zipper

      NOthing’s changed in the NOposition party.
      rolleyes

    • Lying Rabbit says:

      10:22am | 03/07/11

      Hey nossy, Gillard just announced that fuel wont be affected by the price on carbon. This proves what a low level scaremongering one trick pony Abbott really is…he has been mouthing off how much more we will be paying for petrol, like everything else he mouths off about…he doesn’t know what he is talking about, he makes it up as he goes…what was that about lies, lies and more lies.

    • Sylvie says:

      11:50am | 03/07/11

      @nossy
      A bit late in the day for anyone to drop-kick you anywhere….......
      Spare us the links to Van Oscillator.
      Turnbull won’t be chuckling.

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      12:54pm | 03/07/11

      Good day Nosthow

      You are a bit late. Peter Van Onselsen on Agenda this morning was like an over anxious puppy fighting for traction to what he believes that Tony Abbott has suddenly gagged his front benches from speaking to the media. eg Malcolm Turnbull. He kept repeating himself because he was ignored by his guests and only managed to get the Labor MP, Tony Burke to give him the answer that only he wanted to hear. If Van Onselen thinks what came out of Tony Burke was going to persuade the majority to back the carbon tax, he is a fool. We all know how excited he gets when he thinks that a slight chance of what he has said will eventuate! ( The last election Van Onselen declared beforehand that Labor had won earlier on during the counting )

      It was pathetic Nosthow, Van Onselen pushing to demean Tony Abbott when there were far more important issues concerning the welfare of the nation and its people to be scrutinized. At the moment it is all about this non working Gillard Labor Minority Govt, not Tony Abbott and the Opposition. The people should be allowed to deal with Tony Abbott and the Opposition when they see fit to do so. As you keep saying, elections is 2 years away, so we have plenty of time to demand what we want out of Tony Abbott and the Opposition as the alternative Govt. At the moment we are too busy making sure Gillard Labor and the Independents supporting her are never going to be re elected to govern.

      The Polls are now telling us that the majority are watching this messy incompetent minority govt and our PM has lost the people’s respect and trust. You should concern yourself with this fact.

    • nossy says:

      01:04pm | 03/07/11

      @The Badger - perfectly chosen Emotions there Badge - well done !  hahahaah

    • nossy says:

      03:22pm | 03/07/11

      @No 1 Rosie - good afternoon to you Rosie and wise words from you as usual. Yes I am the first to admit the Carbon Tax is a hard sell. However I will venture a little way with you and say if Gillard cant sell it then she is toast and I think she knows that. It is not due to be implemented as you would know till July 1 next year with all its compensations - provided it comes into law. On Insiders this morning Gillard was reminded of how many “irons in the fire” she has - Carbon Tax, MRRT, Asylum Seekers etc so she knows she HAS to deliver or enjoy an early retirement from politics. But Rosie I shudder to think of Abbottt as our PM - hes a leftover from the Howard era and until he staged his coup no one even thought of him as an alternative PM - unlike Gillard. Abbott has showed us nothing except negativeity and I hope that does not propel him into the Lodge. However if it be the will of the people come 2013 so be it Rosie - cant be more fairer than that can I?

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      04:59pm | 03/07/11

      Thank you Nosthow for the reply. Wise words dear Nosthow and good to know the situation we are in. Tony Abbott will need to prove himself a worthy leader not to the media but to the people.

      I just think it is such a same that this carbon emissions thing wasn’t dealt with during Rudd’s time. I also think too much of the blame has been placed on Gillard. Oakeshott, Windsor and the Greens should be scrutinized, after all they are very much part of the minority Govt and should take some of the blame. This will allow Gillard some space to sell her carbon tax. Petrol being exempted is I think a problem. When you think cutting back carbon emissions you immediately think cutting back petrol fumes. This will allow the public not to take too much care on the amount of petrol they use. I presume the Greens had to compromise on something.

      For starters, our PM needs to regain the people’s respect and trust!

    • michael j says:

      06:15pm | 03/07/11

      @A Everything runs on oil from container ships delivering food,cars and live-stock products,,cleaning rifle,n, machine-gun barrels all these things will go up with the carbon tax ,,but fuel will stay really cheap like it is now ,,?
      the word LIAR has been so refined by Australian Pollies it no longer has any meaning ,,fu-k next it will be ‘‘Gods Honest Truth’’ with a hand on the heart,,,,,,,,

    • Jb says:

      06:17pm | 03/07/11

      Yeah Rosie who would have figured cars dont create polution…
      Guess we don’t really need a carbon tax then do we?
      If Bob and Julia already aren’t taking it seriously then why should I.
      Any one else hearing me here?
      Glad to see you coming to your senses Crusty!

    • Keep ya worthless cuts and tax the rich more says:

      10:36am | 04/07/11

      Tony Abbott doesn’t have to prove anything or do anything…..the Libs aren’t in power…..the runs are on the board…nobody out there have done or could do a worst job than Gillard and the Labor Party…..they’ve screwed up everything they’ve tried to implement….they’re NSW Labor but in an embryonic stage.
      If the Greens were to ever take sole power Aust would end up like Tasmania….BROKE

 

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