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Tanner wins the week, Joyce wins the day

Leo Shanahan

by Leo Shanahan

12 Feb 01:34pm

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Filed under: Barnaby Joyce, Channel 10, Election 2010, Finance, Lindsay Tanner, Politics

35 comments

This morning’s Channel 10 news debate between Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner and his Opposition counterpart Barnaby Joyce was the first time the two have gone head to head since Joyce took up the job.

.Jenny Macklin separating Tanner from Garrett. Probably not a bad idea. Photo: AP

The clash was a good example of how a political debate can appear one way in Canberra and unfold in another when it comes time for people to actually tune in.

To give a cricketing analogy, Tanner has won the test match of a parliamentary sitting fortnight but Joyce just won the higher rating Twenty 20.

If you didn’t catch it was worth watching, if only for the wall of sound Yoko Ono art installation the two talking over each other combined to create.

Tanner was on the back foot from the outset because rather than it being about Joyce’s stuff up on Australia’s debt payments and numbers, half the interview was taken up with what should be done with Peter Garrett.

Joyce promptly took up the ball ran with it, managing to turn the whole thing on Tanner by quoting him on the fact that the Government “didn’t have time to dot the Is and cross the Ts” in settling up the program.

“It’s not just Mr Garrett’s department, it’s a reflection of the whole Labor Party process on not dotting the I’s and crossing the T’s.”

Characterising Joyce’s comments as “stream of consciousness jibberish”, Tanner was never really able to communicate during the interview as to why Joyce’s comments on debt were so misguided.

Joyce described, somewhat unconvincingly, his chat to Abbott as just a friendly conversation, but then managed to get in the only good head shot of the whole exchange:

Joyce: “Mr Tanner did you do a cost benefit analysis on the largest infrastructure project in the history of our nation”.

Tanner: “There is a business analysis occurring at the moment, there is an implementation study being done.”

Joyce: “Oh, so you’re doing it now”

It was the most effective point made in the interview that to an outsider would have otherwise looked like a predictable trading of political insults from that week’s playbook.

By the end of the debate the only one smiling was Joyce and Tanner looked very agitated and frankly a bit frightening.

While one interview on Channel 10 on a Friday morning may not mean a lot, the first debate between the two was good example of the point Punch deputy editor Tory Maguire made earlier in the week and one that the Government will have to watch in the election year.

No matter how good Tanner’s arguments might be (and they were right about Joyce’s comments being ridiculous) in Parliament, the Minister’s manner risks coming off smug and ultimately ineffective when he comes up against the “well I don’t know too much about big city finance but I do know this” stuff from Joyce (Senator Joyce never said this, but imagine it wheat in mouth while stopping to spit on the ground).

The two come up against each other again in what we can call the one day international format of the ABC’s Q & A, a format that would likely favour Tanner.

Still Joyce has won the first Twenty 20, and it’s going to be a popular game in an election year. 

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35 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Macca says:

      01:06pm | 12/02/10

      I reckon some labour voters will warm to Joyce, simply because no-one would ever let Tanner kiss their baby for a photo shoot. He looks like Mr Burns…. exxxxccccellent

      However, Joyce is risky, and I doubt the typical liberal conservative voters will like him as a finance minister.

      Either way, Joyce will certainly shake things up, and it should be a very entertaining year

      Reply

    • Jack Thomas says:

      03:26pm | 12/02/10

      Tanner parrots the message he is given.

      Watch his interviews and see how he trots out the one liner again and again. Clearly he can be knocked off his line, like an old LP record. He gets flustered if he has to adapt.

      Same thing as the attacks on Joyce, the Labor spinners gave them that “well I don’t know much but..” message and also fed it to the likes of Tony Jones and other journos they know will spout the Labor party line.

      Pretty soon journalists start attributing this as a quote by Joyce, instead of just another Labor Spin Doctor’s line. The same sort of journo’s who talk about who “won the week” it seems.

      Labor loves this, and have a history of rehashing falsehoods like Keating’s economic record until they (and most others) believe it. The journos just fall in line.

      The other side to this is that you can’t avoid the fact that Barnaby Joyce is a complete schmuck, regardless of the treatment the ABC, The Age etc give him.

    • QUICK REFERENCE says:

      02:58pm | 13/02/10

      Joyce is a pretty high intellect, seemingly anyway, but politically speaks like a rookie boxer.  I might just extent my description and say ‘bull at a gate, foot-in-mouth’ style.  Something the normal run of the voter may not fully understand.  The out spoken Joyce may win a few voters attention when it comes to money but, having had said that, he will be cut back short on the political ballroom floor with his loose behavior.  You know what I am saying?  Rookie boxer playing with a very well versed and senior dancer.  Look, Tanner, as you see him, does possess the grace required.  Tanner can hold his own on the Ballroom floor very, very, well.  O.K then,  he may have to do a bit of graceful, ducking and weaving, for the minute, but what ever ground he loses on the political merry-go-round he will pick up on the round-a-bout.  I’LL have a punt and say ‘unless the media come up with some criminal activity out-side the political ballroom floor or otherwise Tanner stays strong, very strong.

    • Dingo_aus says:

      01:14pm | 12/02/10

      To the author (Mr Shanahan), you should be very careful with quotation marks lest you ruin your journalistic reputation.  I am referring to your supposed quote “...“well I don’t know too much about big city finance but I do know this” stuff from Joyce.”

      Joyce has never said this, nor would he.  He has worked in the finance department of a large multi-national corporation.  Can anyone point to Mr Tanner’s experience in the private sector that involves finance?

      As a journalist you need to make sure you aren’t seen to be making up quotes, as this is the perception one gets from this article.

      Reply

    • Macca says:

      01:22pm | 12/02/10

      @Dingo, at no point did I think this was something Joyce said, but rather a statement on how the public may view the opposition finance minister.

      I think it could be a rather endearing quality, especially whilst Tanner is in his role (pre-election Shuffle anyone? Tanner & Garret out, some young blood in)

    • Tim says:

      01:31pm | 12/02/10

      What planet are you on?
      This was clearly written in jest and obviously not meant to be a real quote from Barnaby.
      Although come to think of it, i wouldn’t put it past him…..

    • hugh says:

      01:44pm | 12/02/10

      This was not a supposed quote - it was a puposely made up quote

      Do you suffer from Aspergers? Did you not understand that the use of the wording and quotation marks was to mimic Joyce, not actually quote him

    • Chase Stevens says:

      12:44pm | 13/02/10

      @Dingo_aus
      It’s called “sarcasm” or “satire”

    • annie says:

      01:27pm | 12/02/10

      Joyce is real Tanner is spin and its scary. The treasury forward estimates for the next 4 years show us having a Fed debt of around $400 billion, if you add that to the debt the states owes its really bad news. Queensland for instance with a population of 4 million owes $50 Billion currently! Add amount and the rest of our state and territory debt then tell me Joyce is exaggerating. He is honest that’s what seem to annoy the Government and the left wing media they don’t like the truth.

      Reply

    • Tim says:

      01:37pm | 12/02/10

      Barnaby is honest and real? Maybe.
      Being factually correct however, is another matter entirely

    • annie says:

      03:52pm | 12/02/10

      Tim like mr tanners factually correct, do me favor take off the blinkers and work out fact from spin. just imagine if Barnaby has said their was no time to dot the I’s and cross the T’s and houses had burnt down dozens of them and 4 people had died as a result, yet the majority of the media has just ignored it.

    • Tom says:

      10:55am | 14/02/10

      Here’s what Standard and Poors had to say about Australia: “Standard and Poor’s rates the debt of the Australian Government at AAA with a stable outlook. And the triple A is our highest rating. It indicates our opinion that the Government has an extremely strong ability to meet all of its debt obligation.” And addtionally: ” “The probability of default is extremely low, probably even lower than 2 or 1 per cent.”
      (http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s2814770.htm).

      I’m not sure where you got that figure of $400 billion of debt from, as most forecasts have debt peaking at about 15% of GDP (around $150 billion), but even if it were to peak at that level (and it would seem to be a worst case scenario), it would still leave us having far lower debt than pretty much every other developed country in the world. Think of it this way - With a GDP of about $1 trillion, borrowing $400bn is equivalent to someone on $100 000/year borrowing $40 000 - hardly excessive, and governments pay far lower interest on loans compared to individuals.

      Hence, to say our government debt levels pose a risk to our economy is simply wrong. There are no examples of governments with similar debt levels having problems with debt servicing. Australia has one of the lowest debt levels in the developed world, so if we are supposedly in trouble, where does that leave every other developed country?

    • Leo Shanahan

      Leo Shanahan says:

      01:27pm | 12/02/10

      Hi “Dingo”,
      Fortunately you have not ruined your reputation for having no sense of humour. I’ll amend the copy for you.

      Reply

    • acker says:

      02:24pm | 12/02/10

      I was in Queensland when Wayne Goss (Kevin Rudd’s former boss) lost the unlosable election in 1995
      That government had an air of smugness about themselves and Kevin Rudd has a lot of mannerisms that are very similar to Wayne Goss
      Aloof oration is one of them

      Reply

    • Jack Thomas says:

      03:45pm | 12/02/10

      That would have been during the time of the Heiner Affair. 

      When Kevin Rudd was closely involved with shredding evidence from victims abused while in State care to prevent judicial review.

      Rudd rejected the view of former chief justice of the High Court, Sir Harry Gibbs and an unprecedented plea from a former West Australian chief justice (David Malcolm), two retired NSW chief judges (Jack Lee, now deceased, and Dr Frank McGrath), two retired NSW Supreme Court justices (Roddy Meagher and Barry O’Keefe), one of Australia’s foremost QCs (Alec Shand) and a legal academic and barrister (Alastair MacAdam) that an independent special prosecutor be appointed to examine the matter.

      Nice times huh?

    • Elevator says:

      03:53pm | 13/02/10

      Papers are not evidence until the subject of an investigation. Until then they are just paper. In other words it is not illegal to shred paper in Australia (just yet).

    • Jack Thomas says:

      11:16am | 15/02/10

      Nice one, you can’t seriously believe that?

      Sexual assault victims’ statements. Take a second and say those words again.

      Then think how you would glibly shred them and spend years denying it.

      Tell your story to any policeman, internal affairs investigator, etc., they may disagree.

    • E says:

      02:37pm | 12/02/10

      Thing with Tanner is that he thinks anyone who disagrees with him is an idiot and it makes him arrogant. The idea that everyone who disagrees with him is stupid stems from his undeniable intellect, and that he believes he has thought things through. Unfortunately for him, actually he hasnt,  really he is just parroting the ‘accepted wisdom’ of the party and his academic leanings, without realising that there are alternative viewpoints.

      This will be his weakness, as he is forced to realise that a lot of the things he implicitly believes are bunk.

      Joyce does the same thing, except he doesnt imagine his is the final word on any subject and his humility will save him.

      Also, Joyce is right that if we keep borrowing at the current rate we will eventually reach the point where we cant service the debt, this is a simple statement and quite true. That point in time might be 2030, I dont know, but it definately exists. Clearly the clever Govt would of course respond with something like: ‘Yes Mr Joyce, if the Libs were in power I am sure they would cross that point of no return, but have no fear the fiscally conservative ALP will pull in the purse strings long before that faithfull day comes. Another example of the Libs unfitness for govt, they assume everyone shares their fiscal irresponsibility’.

      Lucky for the country Rudds spin doctors are hired because they are labor mates, not becuase they are any good.

      Reply

    • Tim says:

      03:32pm | 12/02/10

      C’mon E,
      Who’s trying to spin now?
      Joyce didn’t say we might someday reach a point where we can’t service the debt, he said we were already there.
      Try to find an credible economist who agrees with him, go on I dare you.
      I don’t blame Tanner for treating Barnaby like an idiot, everytime he opens his mouth the evidence mounts.

    • SteveB says:

      03:47pm | 12/02/10

      “Thing with Tanner is that he thinks anyone who disagrees with him is an idiot and it makes him arrogant.”.... “really he is just parroting the ‘accepted wisdom’ of the party and his academic leanings, without realising that there are alternative viewpoints.”

      As opposed to which current or former politicians, from either side?

      I do agree there must be a ‘credit limit’ for a given country and it is obvious that repaying debt + interest must mean either increased taxes or decreased services while paying that debt off, but I fear Mr Joyce was far closer to the mark when he suggested that the US may default because they are in a far worse position than Australia and being a far larger player on the world stage the result will be felt worldwide.

    • Fed Up says:

      08:38pm | 12/02/10

      E
      “Thing with Tanner is that he thinks anyone who disagrees with him is an idiot and it makes him arrogant”.
      Ummmm…........Isn’t that exactly what Barney does?
      Isn’t that exactly what both parties do? Good grief.
      It’s good and well to be cute and cuddly but imagine this dill on the international stage. Howard was dull & boring but he wasn’t stupid and he possessed the diplomatic skill to communicate on an international level. He also knew to choose his words wisely.
      As for the debt. No mention of Abbott’s big gaffe on NZ and finances stating the NZ experience was a success without stimulus.
      Gawd even their right wing PM knocked that idea on the head.
      Stating that he holds Australia up as NZ’s model to aspire to.
      And NZ’s ANZ head economist said Abbott ‘‘Is Wrong’.
      Read Hartchers article on the unbelievable Abbott economic stuff up.
      And a small detail the right would rather forget.
      Head of the International Monetary Fund, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, said in December: ‘‘The crisis and the follow-up of the crisis . . . has been really well managed by the Australian government.’’

    • H of SA says:

      03:39pm | 12/02/10

      The crowd Barnaby needs to be playing to now is no longer just the public, he also has to play to the Coalition’s financial base - big business. I don’t think the Business Council of Australia has been too pleased with those comments earlier this week.

      Reply

    • SM says:

      03:42pm | 12/02/10

      Being “real” will only get you so far.  Tanner is a few classes above him in terms of everything else

      Reply

    • exzilerate says:

      05:21pm | 12/02/10

      Tanner vs Joyce is an unfair contest to start with - Joyce suffers from foot in mouth and poor brainpower so is immediately off to a bad start - and he is the Shadow Finance Minister - whoooooooooooo ! Ya team Tony.

      Reply

    • Brian B says:

      05:30pm | 12/02/10

      When the Rudd Government was first elected, Mr. Tanner seemed promising as Finance Minister. However, Mr. Rudd’s spin induced, all process/no outcome style of politics infected all his senior Ministers until they were all Kevin clones.

      Certainly Mr. Joyce suffers from a bit of foot-in-mouth, but he is improving and, along with Mr. Abbott has the ability to expose the Rudd Government as one with little nation building achievement in it’s first term.

      Reply

    • Steve of Cornubia says:

      06:04pm | 12/02/10

      Well, Tanner certainly has the arrogance, lack of manners and belligerence that mark all Labour MPs - in spades. Despite his bullsh*t in parliament, he was obviously scared of Joyce and desperate to avoid letting Barnaby get a word in edgeways. He managed that, but made a complete fool of himself in the process.

      I remember Swan’s first months as the new Treasurer. His public performances were shambolic and he lacked any apparent knowledge of his portfolio. This of course is forgotten now and Joyce is given no quarter by the media. If he stays in the job, despite his every utterence being dismantled, analysed, misinterpreted, exagerrated and misinterpreted (as is everything that Abbott says) then I reckon he will have the measure of Tanner and have him on the run before long.

      Reply

    • PJ says:

      05:08am | 13/02/10

      Mr Tanner [TIGER}, just do the job you are paid to do; but this time don’t forget to dot the i’s and cross the t’s. If i had to get my accounts in order, i know which one of you blokes that i would turn to.

      Reply

    • Jeff says:

      08:47am | 13/02/10

      All jokes aside peoples. We’re coming up for to our chance to get rid of this government. The country has not gone forward in the past couple of years, but our tolerance of a Prime Minster’s spin (backed up by his Ministers barbed insults) has seemed to have reached an all time high.

      Reply

    • Catherine says:

      09:09am | 13/02/10

      I think the major problem with Joyce is that he seems to suffer from nerves. So many people make mistakes when they are a bit nervous. He knows what he is taking about but needs to slow down and breath before he speaks to the media.

      I am just concerned about how nasty the Labour party looks with some really nasty comments and personal jabs. I know there has always been a bit of argy bargy in politics but the Labour party seems to get even more nasty when under pressure.

      Reply

    • Steve of Cornubia says:

      06:48pm | 13/02/10

      Give Barnaby time to settle in. I doubted that Wayne Swan would ever get to grips with the Treasurer’s role for a year or so but now, provided he has a script and Big Brother Kevin to look after him, he can sound almost like the real thing!

    • Harquebus says:

      10:51am | 13/02/10

      With criticism of Joyce for jeopardizing the economy with his comments, I wonder if the opposite is true. That the economy has been talked up.

      Reply

    • Luke says:

      12:15pm | 13/02/10

      Abbott needs to replace Barnaby in finance and give it to Minchin. (who already has previous experience and is smart)) If he doesn’t his party will lose all credibility and the gains Abbott has made will be lossed very quickly. I wouldn’t be suprised if the next poll has the Libs losing some ground again and that can be attributed to Barnaby. He needs to move him NOW.

      Reply

    • Timmo says:

      08:01am | 14/02/10

      The Australian Economy has never gone broke and probably never will. There’s still plenty of internal Economic Spending going on out here. Easter coming soon. Our internal Economy is not slowing down much, a little maybe. If people have money they spend it regardless of who runs the show. Labour are Democratic Socialist and give more to the Poorer Sections of the Community and Liberal can be anything and give more to the Upper Economic Side. But at the end of the day the money flows from the lower to the higher. All we can do with money is spend it and if we hoard it we’ll eventually spend it. But we have made it a God. It is just a means to an end. Who can manage it properly, well I don’t know. Our country is Rich in Recources and will go on but I think we should internalize it more and get out of this international thing. Dump the New World Order and look after our own first. Maybe the Punch Writers could do a Blog on that one day, should be interesting don’t you think.?!

      Reply

    • GIFT OF THE GAB says:

      01:15pm | 14/02/10

      MAYBE WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE GOOD OLD TIMES. 
      The times of the Keating Government.  The times when, quote “IT IS THE RECESSION THAT WE NEED TO HAVE”
      PRAY TELL!!!

      OH GOD - SAVE US ALL!!!

      Keating had the gift of the gab.  He must have had.  I just can not believe that most Australian’s went on long ever so gracefully convinced this was only a period of very temporary economic decline.  The man certainly hold the majority at the time, didn’t he?  Unbelievable,  to be able to blurp out such hog-wash with so much grace…

      Reply

    • fast fat loss says:

      02:18pm | 02/07/10

      Order Award,trust from display screen together want plenty fit immediately operate roof tall voice professional next chemical technical note relationship in left right award western could enterprise western realize bird itself find subject breath figure sequence job clearly health essential resource unlikely instead confirm soldier medical we test before direct stand count enable limited obtain animal enjoy first tea thanks soft wave entitle nuclear star soil strongly watch future smile discuss election special each city grant nature respond conclusion despite check programme as call become gun shape teaching enough

      Reply
 
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