Suicide is a very real problem. I know. I tried it.

Shivo says:

08:14am | 05/05/11

Good comment Mahhrat.
I attempted suicide in 2008 and thank Lifeline and Beyond Blue every day. Funding should only be increased for mental health as there are multitudes suffering, most undiagnosed, possibly due to pride…..
Great article John. Thanks

MarK says:

12:41pm | 04/05/11

“and ultimately selfish”

How very interesting. And wrong.

“all of the money that is thrown at taking away the rights of the terminally ill and totally and permanently incapacitated to voluntarily end their lives”

Ahh how topical. State sanctioned murder.

Please do go on now and reconcile your abhorrence and misconception of suicide with the suicide is good plea in your second paragraph.

Can’t wait.

Gladys says:

12:43pm | 04/05/11

You don’t get it, Judas. And that’s ok. Because if you did then you would probably need Lifeline too.

Will says:

12:47pm | 04/05/11

To suggest that suicide is ultimately selfish is pathetic. 

Many people who commit suicide suffer depression, which can give one the feeling of being a burden on everyone around them, feeling useless, worthless.

They feel like suicide will release that burden from those around them. Yes that is a distorted view, but to suggest all suicide is ultimately selfish is rubbish.

michael j says:

01:18pm | 04/05/11

@ Judas- you still hanging around,any one who believes suicide is a selfish act is a misguided moron ,,if you were to say Attempted suicide is
a self-centred act of an attention seekin git,,that the author was able to find solace on one of the GODS shoulders is indeed heartbreaking,,but the FACT remains people who kill themselves are far beyond despair and do not attempt anythink ,they do it ,,,
And do not forget the affects of thought insertion,,,,,

Just Another Smith says:

01:21pm | 04/05/11

@Judas, why does it need to be diverted? Surely using the money spent on smokers with lung cancer or fatties with heart disease (ie. preventable illnesses) would go a long way to alleviating Australia’s mental health burden. Mental illness is not preventable and isn’t a choice people make, unlike smoking and eating unhealthily. I’m sick of tax payer dollars being wasted on people who make their own unhealthy beds.

And the assumption you make that suicide is a “selfish” act is such an ill-informed opinion. Most people with mental illness don’t think they have a choice. Their world is consumed with sadness and madness. They don’t have a “self” so to speak. They believe they’re so insignificant and worthless that the people around them will be better off without them. In my experience, it was a “selfless” act due to the person’s distorted view of their life. I used to think suicide was a selfish act, but until you’ve actually been there, you can’t judge.

michael j says:

01:51pm | 04/05/11

@J.A.S. smoking is not a choice, it is an addiction thrust upon mainly young people by incompetent Government bowing to Capitalist Scum,,
And a huge amount of people with mental illness are smokers,,

TracyH says:

01:51pm | 04/05/11

@ Just another smith. You state: “Mental illness is not preventable and isn’t a choice people make, unlike smoking and eating unhealthily. I’m sick of tax payer dollars being wasted on people who make their own unhealthy beds”. Many, many depressed people are smokers and over eaters…sheeeeeesh!!!!  I mean…if I was depressed and suicidal, and smoked as well…your comment would make me feel thoroughly worthless; get a heart

Just Another Smith says:

02:25pm | 04/05/11

@michael j have you considered that mentally ill people are more likely to smoke because they are unwell and therefore have less will-power to fight their addiction that was “thrust upon them by an incompetent government bowing to Capitalist Scum? Improving mental health services could actually REDUCE the number of smokers and therefore more money can flow into health services.

@Tracy H, yeah, I admit I was a bit harsh there. Especially since certain drugs that treated my mental illness caused me to become obese. It’s so easy to forget what it was like being in the gutter when you’re been on this healthy high soap box. Thanks for bringing me down to earth.

Judas says:

02:34pm | 04/05/11

I am not sure how you merry lot define “selfish”, however suicide could be, in any given case, be considered the very definition of selfishness: the exclusive concern with ones own needs/self to the exclusion of others.

The sleeping feel no more pain, it is the living who are scarred.

If someone successfully attempts suicide due to depression, they have served their own needs by choosing to relieve themselves of their pain, regardless of the consequences it may have for others. Ergo, it is selfish.

It is a preventable and tragic selfishness, however.

Those of you lambasting me appear to have completely missed the point and picked up on one word and made quite a bit of noise about it.

Similarly, a great deal of noise is made by the opponents of euthanasia, yet hardly anywhere as much noise is made about the horribly underfunded mental health system in this country.

TracyH says:

03:18pm | 04/05/11

@just another smith…you are welcome…and I apologize for saying “get a heart” . That was OTT of me.

baal says:

03:19pm | 04/05/11

@ Micheal J,
Smoking has been linked by reputable studies to postive mental health benifits for people with mental health issues. So benifitial that the use of Nicotine is being researched as a drug for the mentally ill.
Nicotine can be good for you, the delievery system is the issue.

Matt says:

04:19pm | 04/05/11

I don’t think that suicide is a selfish act. I used to think that, but now consider it more as a chemical imbalance in the brain that tells a person to do something that they wouldn’t ordinarily. Is an epileptic fit also a selfish act? Should we vilify people with tourette syndrome because they selfishly twitch away or make strange noises, to the shock and horror of their onlookers?

I have a family friend whose son was diagnosed with a mental illness. When asked if he thought about suicide, he said that he had. This is a 16 year old boy who suffers from depression. It is not selfishness. He is on medication now, and although he will need to take medication for the rest of his life, he is no longer suffering bouts of depression. I think the point is that if depression and mental illness can be picked up early enough, the tragedy that is suicide can be prevented.

A Bob says:

04:23pm | 04/05/11

Judas, psychologists and biologists alike will tell us that every action we take is selfish. All thoughts and actions originate from the self with the imperative of serving our own needs. It’s a complex selfishness because, as sentient beings with a sense of time, we may allow ourselves to suffer now for the prospect of a greater gain in the future.

This pedantic definition does no good to the mentally ill because people like you abuse it into meaninglessness with the attachment of a moral imperative. In our counselling it was one of the issues we had to counter as it gets used by so called ‘concerned individuals’ to justify why the mentally ill should “just get over it”.

So there, you are right. Suicide is selfish. Happy now? You should be, after all, your comment was (ultimately selfish) even though you were just doing your bit to educate the ignorami of the Punch in the spritit of alturism you so obviously aspire to.

michael j says:

06:25pm | 04/05/11

@Judas-people who kill themselves ,that are not well in the head are not selfish because they are NOT thingking about themselves or who is left behind,,
if someone kills them self because the CAPITALIST system left them broke and they want to avoid debt or disgrace you probably are right it is selfish,,,
@ J.A.S-people don’t take up smoking because they are unwell in the head
can they not give up cause they unwell in head ? lets not forget they are addicted to a poison drug,,and probably a long time before they became ill,,,
more money for sick people hell YEAH

Matilda says:

07:20pm | 04/05/11

I think in the scheme of things very little money is being put towards prevention.  And your comment about about suicide being selfish is way off the mark. Being personally affected by the suicide of a family member, i believe he thought he was actually doing the right thing for everyone else, not himself. In a sense i think this is the point, people have all these assumptions about suicide and there is no real avenue to actually understand the realities of it all.
I do see that you made valid points about where the money is spend instead.
I think this article is doing exactly what needs to be done though, suicide is seen in our society as such a taboo uncomfortable subject. No doubt the fact that it is illegal plays a part in demonizing it and shutting off dialog.
Education and awareness from a young age would go very far in beginning to tackle the problem.

Likes Joining Dots says:

07:23pm | 04/05/11

Judas - Besides the word ‘selfish’ the rest of your comment does make sense to me, if I understand you correctly.

In summary: Terminal patients are not allowed to choose to end their own life, so the system keeps them going with the associated medical costs. But, if terminal patients could choose (note the word ‘choose’) when to end their own lives, these funds could then be directed to help those with mental illnesses and prevent certain suicides.

That was the message I got from your post.

Of course this relies on a distinction, which I believe exists, between death caused by depression/drug abuse etc and a terminally ill patient choosing when the time is right.

michael j says:

07:56pm | 04/05/11

Depression caused by GUILT or SHAME is not really a mental illness,,
if you have a problem like this ,,just stop what you are doing,,,,,,,,,,,,

Paulb says:

08:21pm | 04/05/11

You’re oversimplifying it Judas to call it selfish.  I’ve seen some very selfish suicides, and some that, even though self motivated I would never have characterized as selfish.  The whole thing can be just so complex.

Rubber Monkey says:

12:11am | 05/05/11

Just Another Smith, you’re a tool spreading populist bullshit.  Smokers cost this country nothing.  The tax paid by smokers far outweighs the money spent on their health care.  Smokers in fact subsidize non-smokers.  This is easily verifiable, but don’t let the facts get in the way of an ignorant rant.

acotrel says:

12:00pm | 05/05/11

@ Judas What is ‘selfish’ about deciding to opt out of an uncaring society? Some of the rhetoric coming from the conservatives is enough to make anyone want to slash their wrists! I’m not into censorship, but some of the money to be used to address this problem, could be directed to paying the shock jocks on commercial radio, to stay at home!

Justin says:

01:38pm | 05/05/11

Selfish is the people who label it a selfish act to try and guilt a person into suffering an ultimely futile, miserable, hellish existance in order to save themselves the effort of grieving.

I’ve been there, probably will one day again, and will one day succeed. Nothing annoys me more than people you see for a few minutes a week, or speak to a few minutes a day saying but what about me? What about you, I’m supposed to just live each hellish day so you can keep those few minutes a week. If one wants out, it’s selfish of you to try and force them to stay for your own reasons. Unlike the work of lifeline, who tries to aid people in seeing why they may want to stay after all.

Likes Joining Dots says:

08:14pm | 04/05/11

Just between two Dots

Dot, I read your earlier post in the Open Thread a while back, then this here today. You’re right though, they ‘don’t work all the time’.  When it does not work though, my self discovered fallback was to remind myself that it’s not been like this all the time - the scent of jasmine, bare frozen feet in creek water, humour, radishes (ok I made that last bit up)  all remind me when there were the the ‘other’ times. Those moments are gold. I’m sure you know what I mean.

yeah yeah, I know it’s syrupy and may sound lame to some - but this is just between us Dots ;o)

A Bob says:

10:12pm | 04/05/11

Not syrupy or lame at all, and nothing to be shy about.

This a known technique you discovered. It relies on the associative nature of our memory where like be-gets like. Studies found that the more depressing thoughts a person had the more likely it would bring forth other depressing memories. Learning techniques of recalling good memories would help to cascade others that helped to lift the gloom.

For that reason, humour, quite often crass and ghoulish, was openly accepted in our groups. Laughter is indeed good medicine.

Gladys says:

01:14pm | 04/05/11

Well, it crosses political lines. Geoff Gallop resigned because he suffered depression. Senator Nick Cherry almost killed himself, and there was the Labor backbencher from Victoria who actually did.

Rev says:

04:59pm | 04/05/11

It took 13 minutes.  I’m impressed.

MarK says:

01:20pm | 04/05/11

To be fiar it is mentioned quite a bit to those like me that use the system.

It is also true there are some very good male specific help groups and funding arrangements biased towards men.

Could more be done…sure. Is the system as hopeless as people say….nope.

I always find it slightly amusing that people say look at the failings of the mental health system because of all those that commit suicide in and out of treatment, having been in the system etc etc etc.

Those of us that access and use the mental health system do so for a reason. We are mentally ill. Mentally ill people commit suicide a lot. It is like saying the death rate for terminal cancer is nearly 100% and we need to do more.

Well yah….they have terminal cancer. Chances are they are going to die. We are mentally ill….pretty good chance of us being overwhelmed at some point.

You get the drift.

Jusy Another Smith says:

01:28pm | 04/05/11

Maybe the figures are so high for males because they’d rather die than be put in the same group as a misogynist like you.

Erick, you really sh*t me sometimes. I’ve got a lot of respect for most of your opinions, but when you turn a universal issue into another “woe to men” argument, you really piss me off.

Maddy says:

01:30pm | 04/05/11

Actual statistics aside, I would say the focus of suicide prevention is mostly targeted at males. Look at recent ad campaigns and it is mostly targeted at men, rural men in particular.

I’m not sure what you are basing your evidence of “hardly ever mentioned” on. I would say female suicide statistics are “hardly ever mentioned” with as much certainty. Does it really matter anyway.

AFR - Depression Sufferer says:

02:24pm | 04/05/11

Erick, just give it a frigging rest - its commonly known that men are much more likely to take their own lives (especially rural males). Just try to find something positive from John’s message, instead of being so bloody negative all the time.

Erick says:

02:56pm | 04/05/11

Maybe I know more about depression and suicide than some people assume.

Maybe I notice that articles like this one - and others - are replete with demographic statistics, yet somehow leave out the most obvious one.

Maybe I suspect there are social reasons for the discrepancy, for the difference, and for the outcome.

Sam says:

03:03pm | 04/05/11

Ercik, this conspiracy theory you have that all articles submitted to the punch are anti male is getting tired.
When you are not moaning about the femnazis or stating that men get the roughest lot in life you actually have something interesting to say.
Why did you have to add the last paragraph to your comment?

baal says:

03:31pm | 04/05/11

@ Erick,
The main for the higher rate of male suicides in that men employ on average more violent methods of suicide which included hanging, firearms, death by “deliberate accident” etc.
Women are more likely to cut thier wrists, down pills or try and jump over a cliff. All these methods have a lower success rate. The first two becuase often the method is non fatal and/or they have time to change thier mind and call for help. In the last case people looking over cliffs are more likely than not to stop at the last moment.
It is unfortunate that men are more effiecient at suicides.
This is of course speaking in general terms. I myself am a male and never had the stomach to use my shotgun, thankgod becuase the pills I took put me in a coma I was lucky to come out of.

stephen says:

03:44pm | 04/05/11

Three quarters of suicide ‘statistics’, as you call them, are male because women, when they attempt the act, mostly don’t succeed.
Their efforts are a cry for help and not a final plea.
Therefore the fatalities are registered as suicide and the girls spend 5 years undergoing therapy and rehabilitation.
Their suffering is identical and it may take a more sympathetic soul than yours Erick to notice the difference.

Matt says:

05:00pm | 04/05/11

I didn’t know that three quarters of suicide casualties are male. So I wouldn’t say the information is plastered across popular media.

I would like to know though the percentages for suicide attempts out of curiosity.

Erick says:

05:20pm | 04/05/11

Indeed, Matt, the gender prevalence of suicide is rarely mentioned. And when it is - well, just look at the reaction in this thread. Clearly many people just don’t want to acknowledge it.

Here’s a very interesting graph from the World Health Organisation. Notice any trends?

Yet somehow this all escapes notice, and anyone who draws attention to it is attacked.

Maddy says:

08:42pm | 04/05/11

@Erick

The suicide prevention campaigns I have noticed in the past have focused on men. Are you saying there is a tendency to ignore greater likelihood for suicide by men over women? Because I have never seen anything like that…if anything it is biased towards men. To be honest, it sounds like a straw-man for some other issues you may have.

I think to ask why men suicide at a greater rate would mean getting into a philosophical question of what it means to be a man in the 21st century and their roles in family and society at large.

I don’t know who you are but by judging from the replies it sounds like you have a history for trolling so I won’t go any further.

Mik says:

09:12pm | 04/05/11

The gender difference is well known. Most research shows that more women than men attempt but more men actually die. It is thought this is because they use more violent methods whereas women tend to use poisons/pills more which means there may be a greater chance of being revived. In rural China, more women than men die. This is thought to be because they use very dangerous pesticides and also because even if they are found, there is insufficient medical facilities available. However it is also thought that men do not reach out/search for help as much.
The WHO site has a great many statistics http://www.who.int/topics/suicide/en/
and last year there was a Senate Inquiry into suicide http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/clac_ctte/suicide/index.htm

Darragh Scully says:

03:03pm | 05/05/11

Romulus my Father.
What an Intense Film. It seems to be well researched. Eric Bana plays the role of a man who lives in a rural region and experiences social upheaval and failure with Suicide as the major theme.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus,_My_Father_(film)

Hey Eric Perhaps you wanna hook up with me on my new film, Magic Carpet Down, you can be Bin Laden.

Just Another Smith says:

02:31pm | 04/05/11

“Many people with no illness attempt suicide.” Surely you mean “Many people with no DIAGNOSED illness attempt suicide?”

What mentally healthy person would commit suicide???

Phil says:

02:59pm | 04/05/11

@Just Another Smith,
“What mentally healthy person would commit suicide??? “
One that is able to see through the shit and fog of BS to see the world and everything in it for what it is and decides to not be a part of the game.

Everyone is going to die, why not be in control of it?
Why continue to live when you dont want to? Through the pointless exercise that can be life, busting your ass to keep a roof over your head, food to eat,  pay your bills that keep going up and up, all while continuing to be screwed over by other selfish people for their own gain not to mention the continual incompetence of government who have no interested in people just the revenue generated from them.

That sounds like someone with much more clarity to their thoughts than others who crap on about inane things that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.
That doesnt sound like someone who hasnt been diagnosed with a mental illness, the continual effort to diagnose people and put them in a box even if they dont belong there causes more peoples than people need, not to mention the array of meds (the bad kind) which doctors are willing to hand out like skittles to anyone showing signs of anything they dont see as “normal” is even worse.

Shane says:

03:13pm | 04/05/11

@Just Another Smith:

Grief is not a mental illness, but without knowing the stats I’d say it’s a major cause of suicide.

Again, without knowing the stats, I imagine suicide is more prevelant amongst people facing a terminle illness. No mental illness there, either.

And yet McGorry et al still use suicide prevention as a major aspect of their Mental Health funding pleas. Well sorry folks, but I’d rather $400million stay in clinical research through the NHMRC than go to Mental Health…

Bev says:

04:32pm | 04/05/11

Shane says:03:13pm | 04/05/11

Grief is not a mental illness, but without knowing the stats I’d say it’s a major cause of suicide.

Studies have shown that 70% of male suicide in the age group 24 to 44 is a result of grief and trauma during or shortly after divorce.

Anonymous says:

07:35pm | 04/05/11

@ Just Another Smith

An unemployed person who can’t see much hope of getting a job - that’s what makes me think about suicide.

Shane says:

09:32am | 05/05/11

@Bev

Wow, I didn’t expect it to be that high. Now watch people scramble to frame grief as a mental illness.

News flash: Grief is a normal phisiological response. It is not a brain “misfire” in any way. It sucks, it hurts and it can seem like there is no end to it… but it is not a mental illness.

Maybe we should start grief counselling men during and after divorce. That might prove more effective than our current “diagnose as a mental illness and medicate accordingly” system.

A Bob says:

02:02pm | 04/05/11

I’m glad you added ‘like lollies’. Over-prescription is a problem, but that doesn’t mean the meds don’t have a place.

Meds + counselling = possible success.

Unfortunately, affordable counselling is difficult to come by, hence this article and the existence of volunteer groups like the one I belonged to. So GP’s are in a bind. Meds are all they have.  Sucks.

MarK says:

03:49pm | 04/05/11

Without meds I would be dead. Simple

Gladys says:

01:41pm | 04/05/11

You’ve had a rough trot Dan. That would shake anyone up.

A Bob says:

04:13pm | 04/05/11

Hi Dan, sounds like you have a lot to grieve over.

Grief is a common component in mental illness as it almost always inolves some sort of loss. Relationships fail, jobs get lost and then there is just that loss of years where nothing happens and life just seems to be wasted.

This grieving process is often a major cause of suicides. They frequently occur when the person is in mid-recovery. Life looks better, a future begins to appear, it’s great… hopes rise and then… bang, the grief of the lost years and opportunities kicks in. A rapid plunge occurs and the relapse, if not managed, can be a major factor in triggering a suicide attempt.

Talking about this was a large part of our support group. I had two quotes that I used often to assist. The first comes from Voltaire’s short story the The Ingenu, a story about politics and freedom but a damn good romantic tragedy as well. I can’t find a copy in English on the web and my darn Kindle has gone flat, but from memory it went something like this:

“Let us not praise the deaths of those who die with passivity, for theirs is the fate of animals. He who suffers a great loss must also suffer a great regret. To deny it is to show vanity in the very face of death.”

The second comes from Arthur Goldens Memoirs of a Geisha and goes like:

“Grief is a like a window that blows open suddenly. We can do nothing but feel the cold and shiver. But, after a while, it happens less and less, and one day we may wonder whatever became of it at all.”

These quotes are approximate, I don’t have the actual sources at hand. But the ideas are right. We must feel grief, to deny it is unnatural, but it does fade. Life will never be the same, but it can still be good. To arrive at this realisation is to know that grieving process is working. Hang in there.

Julie says:

08:11pm | 09/05/11

There is a program now funded through the government called “a mental health care plan”.  Anyone can see their GP and they will assess your suitability for this and it is funded through Medicare.  Good luck to you Dan.  I too am seeing a psychologist for ways on how to deal with three mentally ill siblings which in turn has made me very depressed and anxious.  My psychologist has been so helpful in teaching me coping mechanisms.

TracyH says:

02:10pm | 04/05/11

Heart felt empathy for you A Bob…what a lovely and selfless person you are!

TracyH says:

02:10pm | 04/05/11

Heart felt empathy for you A Bob…what a lovely and selfless person you are!

A Bob says:

04:27pm | 04/05/11

Thanks, but I am not selfless. I am (ultimately selfish).

Judas says:

05:07pm | 04/05/11

@A Bob - it is a wonderful thing that you did for not only that woman, but her family - much kudos to you for doing do.

I am sorry that you have had to experience the tragedy of the suicides of those close to you.

As for your question.

My personal experiences, whilst having been partially (or perhaps wholly) responsible for assisting me in forming my personal opinion of the act, are something that I, personally, would rather not indulge in completely elucidating upon with strangers.

All I will say is that over the past three or so decades, it is something that I have become quite familiar with on many different levels and from a multitude of perspectives.

“Stupid, judgemental” - you are entitled to feel that way.

Just as I am entitled to my opinion, based on my experiences.

True Believer says:

06:10pm | 04/05/11

@ Bob

Thank you for sharing how you reached out with such compassion to another human being who was in mental pain.  The wonderful thing about the internet it can be used for such great good. 

I had a similar situation years back in a chat-room - a woman sent me a private message saying she was considering suicide.  I talked with her for some hours, probably not as long as you and then like you wondered what happened.

She was in another country - I had never chatted with her before - a few days later she made another brief appearance with another private message thanking me and saying she was through whatever pushed her to that point and was free of the suicidal thoughts.

We all need to listen and hear the pain of others - I have learned it can be a very oblique reference that hides serious suicidal ideation.  It is always best to err on the side of caution and ask “are you ok.”  Takes so little and can be the difference between life and death for the other.

You are to be commended for what you did. You did not fail my friend, you did your very best and that is all anyone can be asked to do for another God bless you.

A Bob says:

07:50pm | 04/05/11

Judas, have you read my post above explaining why your selfish comment is judgemental and stupid?

Judas says:

08:23pm | 04/05/11

A Bob,

You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone.

Mine differs from yours.

This doesn’t need to mean that either of us are right or wrong, merely that we have differing opinions.

A Bob says:

08:39pm | 04/05/11

TB, hmm. Things might get sticky here.

Many of the OCD/PTSD sufferers I worked with got much of their illness as result of abusive religious upbringings by parents who talk a lot like you do.

Personal disclosure time: I was raised an atheist but became a Christian in my youth and was very serious about my faith. I’ve studied the NT in ancient Greek and I was church leader for many years working as a preacher in what would be called a Restorationist Church.

I liked the vocational role, my lessons were well received as I focussed on the needs of the people in the congregation. There are two schools of thought in Christendom, one that the humanity was made to serve the needs of religion, the other that religion was made to serve the needs of humanity. I belonged to the latter group but frequently found myself in the minority.

The other church leaders seemed more interested in filling seats and the collection plate. I was of the opinion that if the church focussed on the job of filling the hearts of the congregation, the rest would take care of itself. As Paul said to the Corinthians, “I planted, Apollos watered, but it was God who gave the growth”.

My reading of the NT also said to me that intellectual credibility was a part of genuine faith. So I studied in detail, the history, the culture and the influences that brought it about. Eventually I came to a conclusion. “This can’t possibly be true.”

I realised I was on a collision course with the other leaders when I penned a lesson titled “Why God condones evil”. Rather than create a furore, I quietly left. I had been in congregations divided by conflict before and seen the pain it caused. Most of our congregation were poor, elderly or otherwise vulnerable.  Although I loved to serve them, I could no longer do so without hypocrisy. They needed their faith ,and to undermine it would have been a crime.

Now I call myself an atheist, but will still refer to God as a metaphysical concept much in the Spinozan sense of the word. This usually confuses people so I try and stay out of the religious discussions here on the Punch as much as I can. It’s not worth trying to make a nuanced statement in what are generally violent discussions.

So that’s my background.

Back on topic, this background was useful in helping the people with religious related problems. My skill at dividing the word was an asset as I was able to explain the better aspects of their faith while still separating it from the abuse they suffered. Like someone with cancer, you have to cut it out, but you don’t want to remove the healthy tissue. These people still had a dependence on their faith, cutting out the cancerous bits but not destroying it entirely was a useful skill.

And, as a bonus, when religious trolls came along telling people that they could be cured instantly if they just received Jesus into their hearts, I was well placed to pin their ears to the wall in explaining why that wouldn’t happen. The NT promises no such thing. The promise is an end to suffering in the next life, not this one.

And I still hold that faith beats stoicism hands down when it comes to enduring hardship.

So I hope that in spite of all this seemingly contradictory information, you don’t take it too badly when I say your patronising attempt to leverage off my post and talk yourself up is offensive to me.

And that you can take your compliment and stick it.

P.S. As an exercise, I would ask you to read Mat 5:37 and ponder how it demonstrates that you commit blasphemy every time you post here. It’s very subtle to understand, but it may help you to evolve your faith and better develop the fruits of the spirit.

Anyhoo, South Parks Human Centipad episode has finally come online, I’m off to watch.

A Bob says:

10:33pm | 04/05/11

Judas, I have no intention of trying to convince you. Only some real life experience will do that.

So often people in online discussions think the objective is to win an argument. That need not be the case. In our support groups we would allow trolling posts through so long as they didn’t attack an individual or derail a constructive thread.

They were quite frequent. “your all selfish or self absorbed”, “just get over it”, “lack of moral fibre” and “Jesus saves” were the top 4 categories.

We allowed them through, and then politely but ruthlessly de-constructed their arguments and demonstrated the error in their thinking. There were two reasons for this.

Firstly, people with mental illness suffer this kind of treatment constantly in every day life. Demonstrating good, logical, constructive responses to these trolls gave our members ammunition to defend themselves when they were facing the same issues at work and/or home.

Secondly, we were polite about it because often these trolls were mentally ill but still in denial about their condition. This is very common with OCD, which is rated on levels of cognition, how aware the person is that their obsessions are not rational. After a while, a few of these trolls would ‘come out’ as it were. So polite rebuttals were essential even though some of them were pretty nasty for a while. It helped raise their levels of cognition and increased the chance of them seeking treatment.

I honestly don’t care what you think. But, as you may have noticed, I have a passion for this topic. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion. And, as long as the moderators of the Punch see fit to approve, everyone has a right to express it. And we have the right to differ.

It’s all good .I’m responding for the reasons above, so that other readers can make choice between a well informed opinion, or yours.

True Believer says:

09:49am | 05/05/11

@A Bob
Goodness me that is such a sad reply to what was intended from my end to tell you how I admired what you had done. There was certainly no intention to patronise of to “talk myself up” as you put it. 

As you shared your story of how valuable reaching out to another no matter the distance I merely shared a similar instance.  As with you I just happened to be there at the time – and it was a privilege to help another, it always is. 

To take my post as an opportunity to attack me because I am a Christian, not knowing me at all.  A rush to judgement surely and may I gently suggest a very unwarranted one at that.

You had a bad experience with a denomination – happens so often and is so wrong.  If you had read and taken notice of posts I have put on other pages here you would know I do not promote nor am I interested in denominational-ism.  Whilst I acknowledge there are true believers in denominations – often there is too much “man” in the organizations and not enough of the Lord.  I belong to Jesus, not to any denomination. 

People so often look at denominations as reflecting the nature of Jesus and sadly we as His people so often let Him down.  I know I do, much as I try not to. 

You said, “ Many of the OCD/PTSD sufferers I worked with got much of their illness as result of abusive religious upbringings by parents who talk a lot like you do. “

Well having had decades working with people with all mental health problems including those deemed criminally insane my experience differs from yours whilst not denying your perception and experience. 

My work in this area arose out of a genuine concern and compassion for the plight of the mentally ill and the ignorance and stigma surrounding their situation.  When I commenced and for many years after that I was an atheist – I had not come to know Jesus.

Knowing Him enhanced my work I am sure, but as a professional I never discussed my relationship with Jesus unless a person requested me to – and then without intending proselytism for a denomination, only to tell them of the hope I personally had.

You said, “There are two schools of thought in Christendom, one that the humanity was made to serve the needs of religion, the other that religion was made to serve the needs of humanity. I belonged to the latter group but frequently found myself in the minority.”

Well see that is your experience which I think sadly you have extrapolated to me – I don’t belong to any “school of thought” - I just follow Jesus. 

Religion is mostly man-made and often reflects more the desires of man than the will of God so it does not interest me.

I agree with you some denominations and also some Christians give out ill-advised advice on illness and healing. Healing is God’s business not for His people to force on others – He never forces Himself on us.  I know of a sad situation recently where a person with a serious mental illness was told by her denomination to stop taking her medication – a horrific thing to do – the person subsequently took her own life.  That was a tragedy and came from man’s intervention, not God’s will.

Anyway it is a shame you turned from knowing about Jesus to becoming an atheist. For me it was the opposite. I knew about Him as child and then wandered off into atheism. Then in my own home, free of any human intervention apart from the prayers of then strangers and a sensitive friend I met Him and then I knew Him, not just “knew about Him”.  A great difference.

This was not because I was a good person far from it, or that I did anything other than in humility repent and request Him to be my Lord and Saviour.  I will never forget that moment and it is beyond human understanding so I cannot adequately describe it.

I find it sad that you have turned your back on Him, perhaps you too like me, had learned “about” Him, but not met Him.  I think there is a great difference. I cannot imagine anyone getting to know Him as Lord, walking back into the darkness and lostness of atheism.
I apologise if I caused you offence, it certainly was unintended – I felt only admiration and compassion for the situation you described in your post and was moved by your obviously deep concern for this fellow human being you reached out to.  I hope you can accept this in the spirit it is written, without judging me by your own experience of those who call themselves Christians.

Judas says:

12:00pm | 05/05/11

A Bob,

Initially I had formed the opinion, based on your prior posts in this discussion, that you were an empathetic and sound individual.

Your last post however illustrates that you are hypocritical at best.

You make statements such as:

“I have no intention of trying to convince you. Only some real life experience will do that.

So often people in online discussions think the objective is to win an argument. That need not be the case.”

and then continue to say:

“We allowed them through, and then politely but ruthlessly de-constructed their arguments and demonstrated the error in their thinking.”

Not only are you making an assumption as to my “real life experience”, which, based on your previous contributions to this discussion, is on par with, if not exceeding your own; however you contradict yourself with conflicting statements about convincing me, winning arguments and deconstructing the arguments of others.

I find this to be quite perplexing.

I have chosen not to write a thesis about my experience in the arena of mental health and suicide for my own reasons - partly because this is the internet and there is absolutely no point in indulging in the fallacy of anecdotal evidence in some kind of misguided attempt to “win an argument”, though also because it isn’t in my nature to broadcast the story of my life, anonymously or otherwise, to the world at large - I don’t need to.

This isn’t a criticism of you, merely an outline of my personal choice.

Something that is a criticism of you however, and is based on both your comment “so that other readers can make choice between a well informed opinion, or yours” and also the shoddy treatment that you gave True Believer when he/she was merely praising you for your empathy - is that you are unbearably arrogant.

Whilst I wholly concur with your comments about OCD/PTSD and abusive religious upbringings, to use a thread on suicide to get on your soapbox and belittle someone as you did is both patronising and arrogant in the extreme, as is claiming to be the font of all knowledge on a particular subject.

It is evident to me, having re-read all of your posts, that you are interested in only one thing - furthering your own agenda with little care nor concern for the experience, feelings nor opinions of others.

As such, in much the same way that there is no point in debating religious beliefs, I see absolutely no point in furthering any discussion with someone as dogmatic, hypocritical and arrogant as yourself.

A Bob says:

12:52pm | 05/05/11

To TB and Judas together (what a pairing, you can’t make this sort of shit up).

I am an arrogant bastard. Make no mistake. Never claimed otherwise. I just told a story that is true and you decided I was was one thing only to learn that I was something else.  (And then accuse me of making assumptions about you… I can see why you are perplexed, Judas)  Your mistake, your problem.

And to TraceyH, see, like I said I’m not selfless at all. Sorry if that disappoints you. You seem like a nice person.

True Believer says:

03:03pm | 05/05/11

A Bob

Well I tried to discuss with you in an intelligent and civil manner, but it seems you have the disease atheists (especially those who have bitterness towards Christianity for some reason) adopt when they throw the baby out with the bath water - you robe yourself in cynicism, mocking, rudeness and being generally unpleasant towards Christians.  Your problem. I still wish you well and hope one day you will turn back to the great Love you walked away from.

Tim the Toolman says:

04:01pm | 05/05/11

“I still wish you well and hope one day you will turn back to the great Love you walked away from. “

Peace be upon his noodly appendage.  Nothing says love like several hundred kilometers of luke warm pasta!

A Bob says:

04:40pm | 05/05/11

@Tim, please give it rest, not the time or place.

Judas says:

05:52pm | 05/05/11

@ True Believer,

Please don’t tar all we atheists with the same brush because of the behaviour of one or two bad apples.

I have been an atheist for the majority of my time on this planet, and whilst I will never profess to understand the human need for religion, I see no need to mock or be rude toward those who choose to embrace mysticism and mythology - whatever the flavour.

The kinds of atheists that you are referring to, in my experience, tend to be those who are either young and angry or insecure in their philosophical position.

It is possible that a small number of them may even perversely envy your ability to find comfort in faith.

Those atheists who are secure in themselves and in their atheism tend not to feel the need for the kind of rudeness you describe.

I have read many an (albeit anecdotal) account of people who, in their time of need, embraced some form of religion or spirituality - and credit it with saving their lives - in much the same way that some people here have described finding solace in therapy, medication and in internet forums and chat.

Faith and spirituality, and the sense of community found in churches; can be very much as good a medication and treatment for depression and suicide (for some people) as chemicals and CBT.

True Believer says:

07:21pm | 05/05/11

@Judas

Thank you for your post. I should have been more careful in my response.  I know the behaviour of a few does not reflect the whole population of atheists/unbelievers.  Having been one of the latter for many years I know what it is to have no knowledge or understanding of Jesus and how one can have a relationship with Him as I have.  I had no idea what I was missing out on.

You are probably right about the immaturity of those who resort to insults and rudeness. I have had very good and civil discussions on Punch with atheists and they are not of the kind represented by those who can only seem to elevate themselves by putting others (especially it seems Christians) down.  A sure sign of an inadequate personality.

I am not interested in “religion” as it seems to be bandied around in some posts.  Religion to me is man-made, to know Jesus is God made. I appreciate, having been where you are at, that that seems so strange to the carnal mind.

I don’t defend denominations or the man-made rules and dogmas they have built up.  They have often caused damage to people.  It is the “man” part of the denomination imposing often non-Christian doctrines on others.

Jesus does not do that. He never forces Himself on anyone, He comes when we genuinely want to know Him. There are some in denominations who know Jesus, some who “know about” Him and some who are there for their own reasons, not to serve or follow Jesus.

I suspect people like Bob have had bad experience of a denomination and have turned their back on the Lord, probably never having really known Him.  Then bitterness and anger comes in and so to sustain their rage they need to lash out at those who follow Jesus.

It is sad because I responded to him with sincerity, but he has apparently become so bitter and cynical it seems he cannot recognise sincerity.

Anyway I appreciate your post and I will endeavour in future to avoid painting all atheists/unbelievers with the same brush.  That was not my intention, but that did not come through. Cheers.

A Bob says:

03:47pm | 04/05/11

I did a mock assesment of myself a few years back about my risk group. Separated + unemployed + middle-aged + male. Apparently I should be dead now.

Seriously, in the hurly-burly of divorce, the possible suicide of the other is not going to be top of peoples minds, other than maybe a wish that they would. It gets pretty nasty.

It did figure in my mind, only because my abusive ex used the threat of suicide as one of her manipulation tactics. She’s still alive too. We all made it out alive.

Carz says:

08:39pm | 04/05/11

Why should it be the wives’ responsibility? Divorce isn’t easy for anybody and in abusive relationships threats of suicide are disgustingly common. The simple truth is that while preventable suicide is only the responsibility of the person who does it. The effects however affect all around them, even ex partners.

A Bob says:

11:03pm | 04/05/11

You are quite right Carz, it’s not the responsibility of either spouse to consider the possibility of the the other committing suicide if they divorce.  If a relationship has to end, it must end. And if one is truly on a suicidal trajectory they will more likely hasten on that path if they remain in a dysfunctional relationship.

But, the statistics do show that divorced men, trapped in poverty by massive child support payments and a stereotype that it is the mans fault are more at risk than divorced women.

But that’s a societal problem, not something to be owned by the ex-wife.

I won’t use the word ‘disgusting’ to describe my ex wifes use of separation anxiety by threats of suicide to control me. She was mentally ill. The cause was a PTSD resulting from sexual abuse as a child in a patriarchal family where she had no support.

This is the cycle, abuse gets passed on unless someone breaks the cycle. It can be male or female and turning it into a gender war is like trying unravel a feud that’s been going on for centuries. The he/she started it response is invalid. The correct response is ‘I will choose to stop it’.

stephen says:

08:20pm | 04/05/11

Suicide victims I think, by efficacy, are emotional people.
Emotionally, this is not the world they want, because the rest of us do not hear their screams. In some ways, we, (my generation, at least) have made a world where feeling-oriented people are not either valued or listened to, and I’m not only referring to the moment of a sufferer’s torment.
(In some ways actually, I dont think any of us are ready for the world we have made for ourselves, and it may not be by chance that the young, by percentage, are the most readily to kill themselves.)
Therefore, suicide is not, in my opinion, always a symptom of a mental illness, but the processes of a mind suffering often for years, is in my opinion best relieved by behaviorable therapy which accents the best emotional re-training.
Young suicides are too prevalent in Western countries, and it is a disgrace that their emotive processes have not been noticed better by ours.

Helene says:

08:13pm | 04/05/11

I have attempted suicide 5 times in my life, with the first being at 15yrs old and the latest being only just over 12 months ago.  The last attempt was almost successful, and although it has been drummed into me that it is a selfish act, i cannot help but feel that i dont belong here.

I have only recently been able to speak of my mental illness, and come to terms with the continuous thoughts of suicide and my triggers.  These thoughts and feelings have lived with my for 45yrs and have just become part of me now.  I dont understand them, i just accept them.

Mental health is a major problem in our society and i believe part of the problem is that sufferers are not diagnosed correctly, they are just given medication and told to get on with life.  More time needs to be spent with sufferers, and explaining to them their illness.

losing on a tuesday says:

04:05pm | 05/05/11

tried it 12 years ago stupid, really. i had nothing to be unhappy about. good family, partner, friends, security etc… i just felt bored with everything and couldn’t imagine another 50 years of living. took a pile of pills, and if it wasn’t for my partner coming home a little earlier than usual, who knows??? i know i upset him so much, and he promised NEVER to my family (europeans see it as a weakness thing). if something is mentioned about suicide, he always tells me he cant believe how close he was to losing me (or how dopey i was for trying it). i did spend one month in hosptial and 6 months at the shrinks office.  i still get the ‘everything is boring’ feelings (even while i was holidaying in europe for 3 months, and have just returned) but, i just go out buy myself a cake, a block of chocolate, a fashion magazine, a new haircut/colour, a lipstick and a little something from one of the collins street store retailers and then call someone (partner, friend or life line) and it passes within a week, I will never attempt something like that again. it was a low point in my life.

stephen says:

11:50pm | 04/05/11

Cucumber sandwich.
(And don’t let the team down.)

Been there before says:

12:05am | 05/05/11

Lost, I have been in your shoes before and it made it harder when I lost my mum to cancer. Stay strong, you deserve to be here as much as anyone else. You deserve to be happy, so if your feeling down try and chat to a friend, grab some photos of when life was better, or watch a funny show. Do what makes you happy. Accept that we each control our own lives! Live it, Love it, Love yourself!! Remember that you are in control!!!  “I am responsible for everything in my life. And only I have the power to make my life better.” PS. Congrats on the review!

hot tub political machine says:

05:30pm | 05/05/11

They used to say seeing is believing, but I think for our culture “feeling is believing” to some extent anyway. The tyranny of feelings, its the way we perceive reality often, they way we feel it.

Sometimes though, we need reminders that there is a bigger picture, just cause you or I feel like we are bad at something, doesn’t mean we are. If we feel like it won’t get better, we can actually try to look at it a bit objectively and say “well more objectively its not very likely I won’t feel better soon, in the past I’ve felt better after a while”.

Hoping for the best for you, sounds like some helpful decisions have been made.