Sniping at working mothers is no solution at all

Liz says:

06:49am | 12/11/09

Perhaps the sniping is because you do want it all.Why not stop whingeing and do something about maternity leave,proper leave for fathers and decent working conditions for parents?
I’ve been there, done that and from this distance can say parenting is the most important job you’ll ever do so why leave it to others to care for your child.If you can’t afford not to work you’ve taken on too much which helps no-one especially your child.
I understand the need to work but there are plenty of other ways to have a full,rich life and have children.It seems a lost art.

Sha says:

07:20am | 12/11/09

As a working mother there is a huge difference between working by choice and working to pay the rent.I’m in a dead end casual retail job on a treadmill I can’t get off.I am too depressed to do anything on the odd day I have off let alone find myself a challenging,well paid fulltime job. Not all working mothers have high flying careers they can’t wait to get back to. Gulit? the only guilt I feel is if my children are sick or I am sick and I have to lose a days pay for recovery.!

Andrew says:

07:45am | 12/11/09

Staying home and looking after children is the most difficult and most important job that anyone can do. Women in general are without doubt superior to men in the undertaking of this job. Why is it then that some women, especially professional women, view staying home and looking after their children as somehow beneath them and not as important as greedily chasing extra dollars by working while their unfortunate children are dumped in child care. I think these women see having children as one of the boxes they tick off on the life goals checklist rather than fulfilling the true desire of motherhood. If you can not commit to your children, which means actually looking after them, don’t have them. Good luck explaining to your children in the future that they were put in child care when they were young not because mummy and daddy couldn’t make ends meet but because mummy thought that her career and bank account were more important.

Jade says:

08:17am | 12/11/09

Brilliant piece Sarrah! You’ve summed up a whole bunch of ideas that I, a new mum lucky enough to have a great job, have been thinking of also. I’d guess that every single workplace in Australia employs a mother, and you’ve captured it perfectly when you say the most important thing needed to make it all work is support. Other things that help? Technology and workplaces with childcare centres attached.

Calli Brown says:

08:20am | 12/11/09

Bravo for pulling the layers back and revealing what should be the beating heart of this debate. Worth ethic. Shouldn’t this be the only issue that really matters? Does the employee get the job done or not? Why are we still obsessed with ‘being seen’  in the office - even if the only work you are doing is to be seen to be doing work. Which, in essence is wasting your employers money. But we will continue the myopic debate about flexible work hours until a groundswell of women make a stand and refuse to work for employers unless they use productivity as the cornerstone of a return to work policy. I know this is not easy - but like with all paradigm shifts we need a brave few to lead by example. Any takers?

Jones says:

08:21am | 12/11/09

You’re sickening, Andrew. Absolutely sickening.

KM says:

08:25am | 12/11/09

Andrew,

I think we have moved on from an era in time where women are tied to the kitchen sink and actually have some broarder life goals, in addition to being a mother. Granted, that becoming a parent is truly a privledge and not something to do to merely tick a box, however I think you are missing the point. Why is that so many men seem to think they can become a parent, but their life should still take a similar course? Parenthood changes your life dramatically and why is it always assumed that us women should be left ‘holding the baby?’ This is 2009 and I think we need to adjust our attitudes to the fact that women can have careers and a family, and be good mothers. I know so many women that are better mothers because they have an outside interest, so what if it’s paid work? There is something to be said for contributing to the financial load in this expensive day and age, regardless of how some men may feel about being the cave man ‘breadwinner’ No I don’t ‘need’ to work for financial reasons, but I need to work for my own happiness, which has a flow on effect to the happiness of my family! As they say, happy wife happy life. Please give us working mothers a break and instead appreciate that we too have goals and dreams, just as we would encourage our children to follow their dreams whatever that may be.

Owen says:

08:48am | 12/11/09

The bottom line is this:
If you put your heart and soul into being a great parent, your children will reward you many times over for it; if you put your heart and soul into being a great employee, you could still get completely screwed over by your employer.

Come on Dads says:

08:49am | 12/11/09

The best way to end the discrimination against working mums is for dads to step up and do their share of the childcare.
That means sometimes being the one who takes the lower-paying, part-time, flexible job and taking days off when the kids are sick - rather than always leaving that role to mum.
Andrew, you suck. The reality is that once you’re done breastfeeding, men and women make equally wonderful parents and can make equally important contributions to the workplace and community.

Clover says:

08:53am | 12/11/09

Andrew: would love to stay home, but can’t afford it. Simple as that.

G says:

09:01am | 12/11/09

As a man, the whole thing has often been described to me by mothers I know as the single most important amazing life changing event.  In which an indescribable connection forms between a mother and child which transcends anything they have ever experienced.

But then all I hear about here is all the petty issues.

It is a very privileged position to be in to be able to create your own life form, so man up and accept that it is a gift, and which I might add not all women get to experience, but not out of choice.

Andrew says:

09:29am | 12/11/09

Women should stop swallowing this new age feminist rubbish and realise that staying at home and looking after the children is the most important and most rewarding career move they can make. Why do women see staying at home and looking after children as somehow degrading . They should have great pride in being able to do so. Most men wouldn’t be able to do this job half as good as women. I love women and have a great amount of respect for mothers. My wife gave birth to our first child 5 weeks ago so i know how difficult it is and how strong women can be. I’m not saying women shouldn’t follow career goals, i’m just saying that a choice needs to be made. Career or motherhood.

E says:

09:32am | 12/11/09

@Sarrah Le Marquand: Whats with the extra ‘r’? Weird. Article was pretty predictable, same old recycled press release we have come to expect on The Punch (I come for the comments, not the articles)
@Callie : good post
@G: yeah interesting

This isnt a gender issue, sorry but its not. Its about workplace culture. I think Callie would agree, that the most important thing in the modern corporate is perception management. Nobody wants to look to close at anything, it about doing a ‘bee dance’ to get to the honey. And we should be getting past that by now.

Also we are still struggling under the Cold War inspired ‘showing loyalty’ culture. It goes like this ... Reds under the bed = be on the lookout for ‘traitors’... traitors are communists ... the opposite of a traitor is a loyalist, the opposite of a communist is a capitalist ... therefore to demonstrate ideological purity, one must be loyal to capitlaism. Capitalism = money, there fore one must loyally cover up for criminal practices which increase profit. Welcome to your culture deconstructed in 50 words The boomers were brainwashed in school, and the whole thing became a chinese whisper.

So what has this got to do with working parents? Its about allowing parents to put their families before profit without considering them traitorous communists.

E says:

09:42am | 12/11/09

@Andrew : NAh see you are still looking through pre-emancipation ideas. The choice you are presenting is ‘Career or parenting’. Women are better parents? I suppose they are made of sugar and spice and all things nice too? What a load, some women are terrible parents, and some men are as good as the best women. This false gender distinction is really blurring the argument, its not about men or women, its about parents and people.

I want my paid paterninty leave, and I dont want to have to choose between career track and my kids.

Fiona says:

09:50am | 12/11/09

I agree. Andrew you are a relic from the past. Just saying that you don’t think you would do childcare as well as your wife (and therefore she must give up the career and identity she has worked so hard for) is about as valid as leaving all the housework to her because she does it better. Once breastfeeding is no longer an issue, just learn to be a better parent, just as (I hope) you’ve learned to iron your shirts. Then your lovely wife won’t have to make that unfair decision (that you are unprepared to make for yourself) to have children or have a life outside the hime.

Michelle says:

09:51am | 12/11/09

As a working mother, in and out of the home, I’d like to say how about we just stop sniping at working parents full stop.  If we stopped making this debate about mums and children and made it about parents and children, then perhaps the divisions we see in the debate may close (okay being hopeful here).  Why should an employer hesitate to employ a woman of child bearing age but not hesitate to employ a man of child rearing age - are they going to ask the man if he’s going to stay home and take care of the baby?  I doubt it, and yet increasingly that is happening.  So what’s the choice, we don’t hire anyone in that demographic, better get the oldies out of retirement then.  Andrew I am sorry that you feel that you are worth less than 50% of your wife’s abilities as a parent - I’m sure your new baby won’t think that.  Maybe if you stopped limiting yourself you might find what so many men have - they’re great parents and there’s no gender requirement for the job.

Andrew says:

09:59am | 12/11/09

I should clarify. My arguement is against high income professional couples. The women who choose to chase career goals rather than look after their children. These dual income families have inadvertantly put pressure on single income families. I feel sorry for mothers like Clover who do not have that choice. If chasing career goals for these women in dual income families is not about the extra money, would these women be happy to donate their salaries to women like Clover so that they can fulfil their dreams of being stay at home mums?

Km says:

10:01am | 12/11/09

Andrew I pity your wife - I’m sure she appreciates and loves her new role as a mum, I just hope that she doesn’t dare dream to take up any other ambitions in this lifetime, because according to you that would make her less of a mother!!
Take note of ‘come on dads’ attitude we need more of his balanced and supportive view and less cave man antics from the likes of you. Hate to break it to you Andrew, but Stepford wives is fiction, get your head out of the clouds and appreciate that women can do both and so can men. Give the men a break, just because you seem the type to want the woman to do all the child rearing, doesn’t mean other men do, I know a heap of great dads, who support their wives in their careers and help with the kids! Shock horror hey, you should try it, what are you giving up in the raising of your new born?

Libbie Jones says:

10:14am | 12/11/09

I think women should be able to be mothers and work and fly to the moon if they like.
My only frustration, as a woman who has chosen not to have children, is when I’m expected to pick up the slack for parents, both male and female, when they have issues arising with their kids. I already pay taxes which subsidise their baby bonuses, childcare and healthcare and facilities for kids. That’s fine.
But why should I then have to also work harded to cover for when they have to take time off to go to a school play or sports carnival or when the kids are sick?
I understand that parenting is the most important thing in their lives. As well it should be. But their parental responsibilites are not the most important thing in mine.

chelle says:

10:15am | 12/11/09

Children are far more important than career aspirations. 

The claim that “I need to go to work as it makes me happy and that makes me a better mother” is crap.  Your child needs YOU.  Not a rotating group of underpaid childcare workers who believe me do judge you as you drop off your child/children at 7.30 am and collect at 5.45pm.  My god some of you take holidays or flex days/RDO’s and DON’T spend that time with your children!  Yep, drop ‘em off and go shopping or have a day to yourselves at home!

The majority of you also drop off sick, feverish children because as you say ‘YOU need to feel happy and be at work’.  Get over yourselves and sterilise for goodness sakes!

Do some research on the psychological studies that have been done worldwide on the effects of children who are not raised full-time by parent/s.  Particularly the effects on males.  Their need for their mothers for their emotional and social development is quite strong.

I feel for those that have to work - particularly single parents who find themselves alone and with children and are the provider of all.  No sympathy for those though who are single parents who become pregnant again!

But to read that some of you don’t have to work financially but choose to sickens me to my core.  For goodness sake children are not a life sentence.  They enter school within a few years…...they are gifts…..if they had a voice they would say ‘mummy please stay home with me’ .....

Yes. I manage a child care centre - have seen it all!

Fiona says:

10:16am | 12/11/09

Oh Andrew, you are digging a bigger hole for yourself. Do some real thinking about this issue: men and women have babies. Men and women have talents and aspirations. Working is not always about the money. You can look after your children beautifully and go to work at the same time. Men and women are parents and share responsibility. Sometimes (although not often enough) women earn more than their partners. Without the labour of women in the paid workforce, our economy would collapse. Without children, our lives would be not worth living and our society would collapse.
Andrew, I think there are some places left on the plan heading out to Afganistan. The Taliban would no doubt like to make your acquaintance.

Cecily says:

10:26am | 12/11/09

I am a stay at home mother of 2 daughters.  My husband and I made the decision that this would be the case and it suits us, our family and it suits me.  I think it is about choice as to how you and your family break up the career/life balance… who stays home and for how long, and money, happiness, ambition all play a part as to how this is decided.  It is different for every family and the full spectrum of decisions should be respected. 

Overwhelmingly it is not, whichever way you choose.  If you are back at work then you are labeled as greedy, ambitious or unmaternal, if you choose to stay at home you are labelled lazy, crazy or anti-feminist.  Worse you become invisible. “Just” becomes part of your description, as in: “she’s just a house wife, just a mother”.  Meeting someone for the first time now and they find out that I am a house-wife they dismiss me as brainless and socially unimportant.  It’s when they find that I have a PhD then I begin to have some value as an acquaintance.  AND they ALWAYS ask me when I am returning to work - as though that must be my immediate goal.  A common comment is ” Your so smart, you must be wanting to get back to work soon.” or “you must be wanting to get back to work so you can use your brain again.”

I do wonder if we have, as a society, devalued motherhood in our efforts to maintain careers.  We certainly do not pay the people who look after our children in creches and childcare centres very much- if that is the value our society places on the worthiness of a career. 

But certainly I agree that for those women wanting to go back to careers, then employers should be flexible.  Good employees are good employees, it has nothing to with gender.

Melissa says:

10:28am | 12/11/09

My partner is 10 years older than me. He’s had a lot more time in the working world than me and has accomplished a lot of the things he wanted to do. I’ve only just begun. We’ve already discussed that once we’re ready to have babies, we will both have as long as can afford off work to both be with our new baby, but once money runs out, i will return to work and to my career, and he will be a stay at home dad. I never pictured myself as a housewife when i was younger, and thats something thats always been in the back of his mind so it works for both of us.

As much as i want to be a mum, i also have stong career ambitions, and i know with a supportive partner i wont have to choose between the two.

It’s sad to see there are still so many archaic attitudes around. Good on you Sarah for doing your bit to help people see the other side of the story.

Jo-living savvy says:

10:49am | 12/11/09

As a mother and a sole-enterprise business operator..I have flexibility and all of the responsibility…no paid maternity leave, no sick pay, no flex time…I embrace this lifestyle choice and would not change it.  As more women move into running their own business then this discussion around work and parenting needs to be broadened to include the issues that arise when parents are self employed.  We are talking significant numbers.  I give a shudder when I see the advertisements that promise success to women who want to be full time mothers and work from home….....talk about over promising and under delivering…..it is a challenge to have all of the cake and eat it and enjoy it…It is more like what piece am I going to savoir today.

Andrew says:

11:00am | 12/11/09

Fiona - I didn’t say anything about women in the workforce, I mentioned mothers in the workforce. In terms of staying at home, i’m talking about the period before they go to school. A collasping economy is a little drastic, the economy somehow survived in the old days when most women stayed at home. Men and women don’t have babies, men can be parents but don’t have babies. Motherhood is a purely natural thing. For most species if you took the young from their mothers and put them in the care of their fathers nature would collaspe.
By the way have you been to Afghanistan? Do you know many Afghan women? Your comment in regard to heading to Afghanistan and joining the Taliban is intriguing. How do my veiws on stay at home mums have any relevance? By the way the H is Afghanistan was put in there as a mark of respect for their Home mothers, you left it out. As you can probably tell, I’m having a slow day at work so I can keep arguing with you career chasing, liberated, save the economy and man kind, working mothers all day if you like.

KM says:

11:03am | 12/11/09

Be careful Chelle, you don’t know all the facts, so allow me to enlighten you. I have arranged to work at home one day per week so my son isn’t in care full time, and he has another day at his grandmothers which they both love. He is a very balanced 4yr old and I didn’t return to work unti he was 3. I spent 5 years at home with both our children, a time I enjoyed, but despite a great circle of friends, was lonely with a husband that worked 14 hour days! You judge all you like, I don’t have to answer to you, I have to to my children and as far as I can tell they are happy balanced individuals. Our time we spend together is very precious and we are all happy and happy with the decision for me to work!

Helen says:

11:04am | 12/11/09

To the SAHM cheer squad: I completely support your decision, and I’m sorry that you feel the need to criticise and demonise other peoples’ choices. However, I have to point out that the human lifespan is now eighty years plus, and most couples these days choose to have fewer than three children. In that case, the years spent with babies and preschoolers will be relatively few. Sure, you can be the ultimate helicopter parent, present at every school cake stall and working bee known to mankind, but the unfortunate truth is that your years as a parent are still fairly limited in relation to your overall life span. So what are you going to do, after your years as a “professional parent” are over? You’ll still have a few decades, not a few years, left. And it would be a pity if you had no work or study skills updated whatsoever during that time. It would also be a pity if your spouse were to suddenly decide he was in love with somebody else, or died or became ill. Hey, it happens!

The views of people like “Andrew” are built on a very essentialist view of male and female roles which is steadily being broken down as more fathers assume a more hands-on role in parenting (as well as women at work and in education.)

Oh,oh says:

11:10am | 12/11/09

Melissa. Spoken like a female who hasn’t had kids yet!
Your ‘plan’ rings alarm bells with me.
What happens if-
*your partner changes his mind or makes a lousy full time dad? He gets resentful-putting strain on your relationship.
*you go back to work but feel resentful that your partner is ‘just’ staying home and not really contributing (money wise)- putting strain on your relationship?
*your partner feels isolated at home ( sometimes mums get isolated and they usually have great support networks, it’s far harder for a stay at home dad)
*you decide that you want to stay home after all after having a child?
You seem to have thought things through to the best of your ability but be aware that things NEVER just run to plan, there are so,so many variables in life. People who think they have the perfect most supportive relationship can get a nasty shock.
I don’t know how old you are. I don’t mean to judge or single you out.  But your comments are so typical of many women (lets say in their late 20’s) who have been told they can do everything they want. At once.  Well, no, you can’t. And yes, it’s unfair. It’s even ‘archaic’ as you put it. It’s also reality.You really seem to so earnestly believe that issues like this one go according to a plan?  There’s some quote about the best laid plans; i forget how it goes.
Best of luck tho.

Kia says:

11:23am | 12/11/09

@ Helen
I’ll probably go do a degree in psychology to help all the disfunctioning adults cope in life because their parents were never around when they were children

AdamC says:

11:24am | 12/11/09

This is a reasoned post about an issue where discussion is so often unreasonable and narrowly defined along sectional interests and personal values lines. Employers should attempt to make accommodations for the needs of working parents where feasible. It is best for everyone if women (who want to work and have children) can remain in the workforce furthering their careers.

Of course, a common sense approach is required. It would be absurd, for example, to have a CEO who works a four-day week (Or, as in Alexandra Shulman’s excellent article, a Vogue editor who leaves early each day for the school run.)

JACS says:

11:30am | 12/11/09

I am a working Mother and it is not because I want too. It’s because I HAVE to. i came back to work so we could pay the mortgage and so my hubby doesn’t have spend hours and hours at work and never see his family. Being a SAHM is a luxury for alot of families.

Jade # 2 says:

11:31am | 12/11/09

I agree with what Andrew and Chelle have said! the best place for a mother is at home looking after her children.  If you do not want to do that then do not have kids untill you have fulfilled all of your other goals in life. 

People wonder why there are so many naughty ferel kids out these day and I ask myself where are there parents…. they are working.

I am only 22, so its not as if I am old fashioned, I have a goal to go to uni, but if I have kids before then, I will give that up to look after them as i can raise them better than the childcare centre.

Al says:

11:38am | 12/11/09

At the end of the day this ‘debate’ is all about actions and consequences.

The desire to have a child and for that not to effect ones career is natural however in the majority of cases is not realistic.

You have to decide what balance between career and children is most appropriate to you. Something has to give, because at the end of the day if you are not at work putting in the hours someone else is and the person contributing the most to the organisation is likely to be rewarded. Despite certain people howling about this approach it is only fair and right in a meritocracy.

My fiancee and I are both professionals; we are going to have to decide at some point who’s career (probably both) suffers for the children and to what extent. This is a decision that all parents have to make and one which should be thought through before having children.

Interestingly much of the focus around this issue seems to be about women but in most corporate cultures a man who takes time out to raise children if far more heavily stigmatised then a woman because it is not expected.

At the end of the day you can’t have your cake and eat it too, you need to accept the consequences of your choices.

Stay-at-home mum says:

11:40am | 12/11/09

I don’t think there will ever be an answer to this debate that pleases all.  I have been on both sides of the fence.  I used to be a working mother with a successful career and now I am a stay-at-home mum.  I can say from experience that you cannot ‘have it all’.  I used to work long days, my children were always sick and I was always tired.  I thought I had it all and I used to think that the sacrifices I was making by not being with my children was worth it.  Now that I am at home with my children I see how much I missed out in those first few years.  My children are no longer sick all the time.  I am the person teaching, guideing and shaping their characters, not a childcare worker.  I am there for them when they are ill.  My children are happy and so I am happy.  Yes we have little money, yes we have to do without.  But I would like to think that I am doing the best for my children by being there for them.

bek says:

11:52am | 12/11/09

Why aren’t employers offering all employees more flexible work arrangements…of course with people in operations roles that is near improssible, but for those is corporate roles there is no reason flexibility shouldn’t be introduced to all. It’s this lack of flexibility that has resulted in me going into business for myself.

fiona says:

11:52am | 12/11/09

Dear Andrew, I like your comment about the h in Afghanistan, but it holds as much water as the rest of your argument. I didn’t have spell check on (I see you didn’t either) , but at least I have my arguments straight.
The economy: in a very different shape from the days when women were forced to resign when they married (my mother’s era, 60s). And, of course, we are talking about middle class women. Poor women all over the world have always had to work, have had to hand the care of their babies over to other women. This is not new, it has been happening since we lived in caves.
Just imagine what would happen to businesses if they lost all that great talent that just happened to be female with pre school-age children? The economy now depends on their labour ... talk to any economist.
Nature: Take a look out the window and look at all those little birdies, mice, insects, pussycats out foraging for food, feeding their young, nest-sitting. Nature gives us a great example of shared parenting.
And I’d love to meet some Afghanis, though the majority here in Australia are escaping the sort of thinking that declares, among other things, that women (including mothers of young children) cannot work.

ChelseaLee says:

11:56am | 12/11/09

Andrew - one thing I’ve learnt after posting numerous times on this site and others - people love to pull apart the things that you say, exaggerate them and then piece them back together the way they see fit. This allows them to express a non-existent point which makes them feel good about themselves and their day. Can you not see the correlation between the importance and value of motherhood and the Taliban? Gosh… If people read your posts with a level head, they might actually understand your view.

While I do believe that women can have, and are entitled to, a glowing career - of which I aspire to and am studying towards myself - I do also believe that whilst a child is in the most important stages of their development (before school), they should be at home with their mothers.

In saying this, I am not naive to the fact that certain circumstances do not always allow for this. Fair enough. But a woman who is in a financial position to have the privilege of sacrificing work for their children should, in all circumstances, do so.

And quite frankly, there is nothing anybody can say to change my mind.

Bitten says:

12:03pm | 12/11/09

I say bravo to Alexandra Shulman, a person I have admired for many years professionally. I was not aware she had written independently on the topic of work and motherhood but now I will endeavour to find the article.

While workplaces are full of women who very earnestly assure their colleagues and employers that they WILL be back after maternity leave, that they DO insist that they retain their job, that they WILL be an employee worth employing (for employer and co-worker alike), I fear the side is being badly let down by the majority of women in the workplace. Lack of clarity, committment and ability to make a firm decision is a significant problem posed by most female workers. I say this as a female Gen Y who has sat through innumerable interviews with other women who say all the good chat “Yes, I want to work full time. Yes I am qualified. Yes I love what I do.” Great I think (foolishly - when oh when will I learn, women are the worst type of liars, the ones who lie to themselves about what they want). I’ll offer them the job, pay above award rates, then 5 minutes after they’ve warmed their bottoms behind a desk “Oh, I’m feeling really stressed and all what with having to bring my vagina to work every day, could we change my position to part time? That would be great, thanks.” Thoughtless, arrogant, inconsiderate women behaving badly in the workplace are not doing the rest of us any favours at all.

Ian says:

12:03pm | 12/11/09

At present I have an 11 year old spending the day in my office, 19 days a go I had a 4 year old do the same thing.  Why at the office - because they are sufficiently unwell not to go to school / preschool but not so unwell that they need to spend the day in bed.  In the previous 6 weeks I had days off with each spent at home.  I am the higher income earner (significantly) however my wife’s career is of equal value to the family unit.  How do we decide who the designated carer is in such circumstances - on the basis of who is the least inconvenienced on the day.  It’s not that hard and balances out over the longer term.
I do the before and after school pickups and drop offs because I can.  I was able to negotiate a later start time and I’m only 5 minutes drive from my office.  My wife has a half hour commute so is often unable to perform this role.

In relation to the question of males picking up the burden.  As a second time round parent with young adult children I was heavily involved in their care and regularly had comments made about whaty a good, involved father I was.  15 years later the proportion of males doing the running around at activities has increased significantly (although there were not too many doing the drop off for the dreaded ballet concert rehearsal perhaps because most men are fundamentally incapable of doing a ballet bun) and most families seem to share the morning and after school pick ups and drop offs. 

My wife has only just gone back to full time work after much angst which is why I have picked up more of the load.  Our almost 5 year old does not need the input her brother (Aspergers) needed however we will be doing readers at least once a week when she starts big school next year.  We are in the fortunate position of being able to negotiate our working circumstances in the search for the elusive work life balance.  like most we attempt to do the best of everything we can.

Yes women still carry the majority of the burden however the guys have lifted their game significantly.

Sorry Andrew - no male solidarity here - you sound like a pratt.

Full-time working mother of two says:

12:16pm | 12/11/09

Pay those who want to work the equivalent of two salaries, so that one parent can stay at home with the kids - no one suffers, the workforce is paid the same as if everyone were working, the taxes get paid the same, but the finances are taken care of.  In the end, we won’t need childcare centres.  Don’t rant about capitalism, house prices are what they are, not everyone can have a $1000/month mortgage, as those places are occupied, and given the population boom, new houses need to be built.  As new houses have been attributed certain prices, monthly expenses follow.  It’s a natural progression in this society.  People move away from their parents, so grandma and grandpa aren’t available - or are most likely working full-time anyway, and are therefore unavailable.

There are opponents to paid maternity leave - “we won’t pay you to stay at home”, and these same people then berate mothers for going to work to earm money to relieve the financial burden from the working father. Is that so bad?

Susie says:

12:17pm | 12/11/09

Could someone explain to me exactly how its possible to “look after your children beautifully and go to work”? (Fiona). I tried for almost 10 years and failed. Firstly, when I was at work, I wasn’t looking after my children, the childcare workers were (and a more wonderful bunch of women I couldn’t find). I’m a professional and this year was offered redundancy which I leapt at. We have never needed my income as my husband is a high earner and we are mortgage free living in the dream house, etc, etc. I kept working for all that time because it was an expectation of my husband that I contribute financially, despite no financial imperative to do so. So obviously no value placed on raising children by him, only the value of my financial contribution. I always felt as though I was failing my kids by having to wake them up early, in the dark, in winter, so as to be able to drop them off at childcare at the precise moment the doors opened at 7.30am, not being able to attend all their special events, etc.  It didn’t get any better when they started school because they wanted to do sport, dancing, etc like all their friends. So that’s when the part time work, part time mothering juggle started, which though easier was still difficult, because employers still expect work to be performed and deadlines met, irrespective of the fact that I was only employed to work a certain number of hours. So redundancy offered and gratefully accepted by me.

What I didn’t count on however, although I should have, was the resentment that my husband feels now that I’m at home with the children. He sees me as having unlimited leisure time whilst he works long hours. I should mention that my husband travels extensively for work, being overseas at times 2 weeks out of 4. When working all responsibilities obviously fell to me, with work on top. And yes, I’m aware that there are serious marital issues here and a very real likelihood that this marriage is not going to survive.

I don’t know what the answer is. I just know that I feel as though I failed my oldest child in particular by placing him in childcare when he was 6 months old. But similarly I find myself in a very tenuous position, contemplating a future as a single parent and the damage to my kids as a consequence of the break up of their family.

fiona says:

12:23pm | 12/11/09

Ian, you wife is a lucky woman

Shane From Melbourne says:

12:24pm | 12/11/09

Nothing about the co-workers who have to pick up the slack for someone who is arriving late or leaving early for a child care run or taking a day off because the child has the sniffles and nothing about the poor bastard who is only employed for 6 months and then given the boot because the mother has gone on maternity leave and wants their job back.

I guess they don’t matter….

JH says:

12:30pm | 12/11/09

As an employer, I want employes that are going to have the least amount of time off as possible; I am not the united nations, I run a business. The majority of the employment pool understand this and can show up to work day in, day out. I appreciate the needs of those with family commitments (I am a father of 3), but all my goals in business are busines goals.  There is no upside to hiring those with commitments outside of work that will take priority.  This is a plain fact of business. Until there is a reason why I should change, such as legislation etc, there is no reason for me to hire people who’s care responsibilities will interfer with work.

Angel says:

12:39pm | 12/11/09

I cannot stand the snipe at working mothers.

Mostly because there are snipes either way.

Having previously suffered the hell that is single motherhood, I was told by some that I was selfish, wasting taxpayers money, and all other sorts of rubbish for being at home with my young child.

Now I am “wanting it all” because I work to earn my money.

Honey, no matter what you do you’re doing wrong by some kill-joy out there so do what makes you and your family happy!!!

I notice that “wanting it all” is always directed at working mothers. Why not working fathers? Why do they not “want it all” even though the majority of times when they become a parent, their working life does not change [lucky them]!

a says:

12:42pm | 12/11/09

I respect all parents’ decisions they make together.  I personally chose to return to work part time when our child was 2 and a half and return full time when she was in grade 1.  It is not a choice but a neccessity for us.  What gets up my goat is mothers (or fathers) that never return to work and claim family tax benefit and stimulus payments, even until their children leave school.  This is surely a loophole in the system and should be changed.  They do it because their children are on austudy or study assistance.  Think of all the tax payers money working mothers save by way of family tax benefit, stimulus payments etc, because once you both work you are more than likely entitled to nothing.  At the end of the day whether you’re a sahm or a working mother who have to make your own choices and justify them, someones putting out someone else’s nose in the process.  I also think it’s vitally important to raise children with the belief that no matter what you do or who you are, a mother and father can and do have varied tasks that contribute equally to the running of the household.

dancan says:

12:50pm | 12/11/09

There is no real answer for it.  The costs for running a company are ever climbing and clients detest having to wait longer than necessary for a product or service.  Clients don’t care if your company has 2-3 people away due to maternity/carers leave.  If the company can’t supply what the client wants in a timely manner then the client will go elsewhere, if the company brings on more people to cover the time and workload their budgets blow out.  So with that in mind who would bring on a person who will at some point disappear for several months or more and then be unreliable for several years after

cats says:

12:51pm | 12/11/09

The problem is that children are not valued in our society anymore. Hear the arguements from people without children, that their lives “shouldn’t be affected by parents”. I don’t blame them for thinking that. Because thats unfortunately the way we have been brought up. By 2035, its estimated that the only real population growth in Australia will be from immigrants. If White Australians were taught to value children and NOT just their own children, as the future of our society, then a lot of the problems will be solved. This means implementing paid maternal AND paternal leave for parents, teaching future generations the importance and protection of children in society.

The fact is, a lot of mothers would rather stay at home with their children, but cannot because of the rising cost of living. Its so easy to say “well don’t have kids then”, and that just proves my point about our society not appreciating children the way it should.

Michellemac says:

12:55pm | 12/11/09

My husband and I were having a smug parent discussion the other day about how well our kids have turned (so far). a 4 year old daughter and a 5 year old son. Both of them have lots of friends, are polite and well mannered but also cheeky and charming. Empathetic towards others yet friendly and lovely (I am somewhat biased, I admit!). My son is exceptionally numerate, my daughter can read already but has yet to start school. They are adapatable, love going out to restaurants, trying new things. My son excells at soccer and Judo. They tell us both they love us every day multiple times and are very affectionate and know they are loved. I say this not to show off but because according to some of the comments above, they should be on a fast track to all sorts of evil and horrible things because,  guess what? I work full time in - shock horror - a career!!!  And so does my husband.

We have days where we have to juggle between sports and school and sick days (us and the kids) and we get help from the grandparents and other extended family members and the period from 5pm when I leave the office - usually still on the phone to a colleague or client -  until 7.30 when we are clearing up the dishes from our meal (fully homecooked and all of us around the table 5/7 nights, I hasten to add!) is a bloody nightmare but I all I have to do is look at my children and know they have turned out not just fine, but children to be proud of, and know that we are good parents who have done the right thing for our family. I get no greater sense of pride than watching my daughter playing ‘work’ as well as ‘cooking’ and ‘babies’. I can only laugh when I hear people like Andrew stereotyping working mums (because it is the MUMS who are the demons here) and the children of working mums because I look at my own family and I can see just how wrong he is. I remember when I put my children in day care, my (very old fashioned) father was horrified. But after only a few weeks he could see just how well my children were not just ‘surviving’ but THRIVING in that environment and has become the biggest advocate for it. To be honest, I was a rubbish stay-at-home mum. It just wasn’t for me. I don’t feel ‘selfish’ or guilty about it. Some people are good at it, some people aren’t.

For those who say we should choose between a career or parenthood - how do they propose we make that choice? I had visions of staying at home making biscuits and making play-dough and being part of the school canteen committee too, but when I actually started doing it, it wasn’t for me. I could hardly give them back at that point, could I??

Bateman says:

01:01pm | 12/11/09

A business does not exist as a social service to give people something to do during the day. It exists to make money for it’s owners. It should not have to accommodate people that are not increasing it’s bottom line to the fullest extent possible.

To lay these sort of costs on business will hurt the economy and the entirety of society. In turn, it will hurt the essence of the feminist movement.

If you want children then you will have to find your own way to make it work. Not expect businesses to cater to your selfish needs.

Jekyl says:

01:06pm | 12/11/09

What an interesting post this has turned out to be… Above all the sniping about whether this is a woman’s or man’s job, people should remember that it takes two to tango, and this applies to all the aspects of sharing a life together.

I am lucky enough to have a boss who is extraordinarily supportive of all of his workforce, and that includes the opportunities to be flexible in their work.  I am not a parent yet, although will be in the next couple of years (thanks to the ever-ticking clock) and this issue will be very real for me then especially because I don’t just have a “job”, I have a “career” that I have worked very hard for. 

My partner is quite the alpha male, but he believes that women should not use having children as an excuse to quit work and stay at home and not live out their previously dreamed goals.  I agree in a sense, and along with others in this post, I believe that a happy mother is a good mother and if that means working towards goals (whether it be paid or not) that are independent of the running of the household and parenting, then so be it. 

But above all of that I want the choice.  I’m not planning anything until I go through the experience because who knows how life will turn out.  And essentially this is what it is all about - being able to have that choice without being held to ransom or criticised by others.

Jamie says:

01:07pm | 12/11/09

Ian is an excellent example of what a father should be and how being part of a family unit should work. Andrew is an excellent example of how to be a slacker of a dad. Look, if you keep insisting that women make better parents and caretakers, then ultimately, your kids are the ones who will lose out. Because who will do their best in any role if they keep thinking that ‘oh, my gender makes me 50% less efficient’? Both genders are equally capable in raising children and providing nurture. The idea that men are somehow less capable of nurturing kids who are past breastfeeding stage is just insulting to fathers all over the world. Also, sounds too much like an excuse to be a bad dad.

a says:

01:09pm | 12/11/09

Suzie I feel so sorry for you.  You should take the redundancy money, hide it, and leave.  This is your money rightfully as your husband sounds mean spirited and obviously did not contribute equally to the relationship or family.  Run and enjoy your children now.  Children are very forgiving you know.

Cindy says:

01:16pm | 12/11/09

I completely agree with Mem Fox on this issue. http://www.memfox.com/mem-on-babies-in-child-care.html
I am a lower primary school teacher and each year I play a little game where I silently try to guess if the children in my new class who were put into full time child care from a young age or fortunate enough to be cared for by a family member until their preschool years.  Sadly I am yet to be wrong and this game is becoming easier and easier each year.  The small number of children who are privileged enough to be cared for by a devoted parent or grandparent certainly do stand out from their peers in more ways than one.  Next year I will be returning to work 2 days a week after having my 3rd baby.  He will be 12 months at this stage.  My husband will work from home 1 day a week to care for him and my mother will care for him on the other day.  My husband and I vowed that our children would be put into formal care until they were at least 3 and even then only on a part-time basis until they start school.  I know first hand the long term affects on a child’s development.

I truly feel for the mothers who are forced to work to pay the rent.  I think it’s a sad society we now live where this is the case.  How could have got it all so wrong?

Ben H says:

01:19pm | 12/11/09

The media has ‘sniped’ stay-at-home mothers for decades now. Public opinion that mothers should be at home looking after their kids doesn’t even come close to making the propaganda war even.

Stella says:

01:28pm | 12/11/09

I have it all. There, I’ve said it.
I have a career I love, a toddler I adore, a husband who is brilliant, a social life and a sex life.
I have all this because I’ve worked hard for it and I’ve made adjustments to make sure I can balance it.
Damned if I’m going to have any poorly-evolved male chauvinist make me feel bad about it.

Happy Mum says:

01:31pm | 12/11/09

I am a working mum.  I do not abuse my children.  I do not hit my children.  I spend quality time with my children when I am with them - I talk with them, I listen to them, I read to them, I take them places so that they can experience new things, I play and laugh with them.  They are in a wonderful childcare centre who also nutures and teaches them.  I am happy because I am fulfilled at work and fulfilled at home.  They are happy because they have a happy mum who loves them.  End of story.  People who are critical of my choices need to stop worrying about working mums and worry more about those children out there who are actually being abused - even with mum home everyday.

DSN says:

01:33pm | 12/11/09

In Iceland the government funds a set amount of ‘parental leave’ for each child.  The parental leave can be split between the mother and the father of the child at any ratio they choose. In a way, this is good for equity - an employer hiring a man must give equal consideration to the fact that he may wish to take all or most of the parental leave owed to the child.  Seems like a better system than maternity leave to me.

Darwin says:

01:33pm | 12/11/09

It is you that is sniping it seems to me. You have not ofered anything new to the mix or the debate by commenting on this article other than to impress upon me the fact that you do want it all. You expect others to bend (emplyees and employers AND your child!) to accomodate your choices. Well they have choices too and businesses to run and until you can offer something credible that will enhance and not cost your employer I guess there is nothing more to add to the debate. Welcome to reality. Oh sure, you have sugared your choices over conceding that your piorities have changed. (It seems you want a pat on the back for that) Is that supposed to fool us into feeling for you and for the choices you have made. What about the commitment to parenthood and to your child? Many parents in your situation try to smooth over their selfishness and realise too late what their careers have cost their families. I have worked in child care and I have done my best to look after the children in my care but nothing compares to the love and support I can give my own children and the achievements I can make in my own home and community by taking my parenting responsibilites seriously and raising healthy happy well balanced socially stable children who (instead of being witness to the support of their parents commitment to their careers) have experienced a stable loving family who wanted them , brought them into the world, then committed to raising them.
Start your own business from home. Be your own boss and choose your own hours that will not interfere in your childs life. The life you chose to commit to by deciding it was time to raise a family. And stop whinging that we will not accomodate you. It is your child, not mine, not the governments and not your emplyers!

Anne says:

01:35pm | 12/11/09

Alexandra has a point though. It will get to the stage where many employers will look at women in their childbearing years and decide that it’s just too much hard work hiring them. Not a problem for me because I’m pretty much out of that age bracket, but I don’t want to see younger women miss out on the opportunities they deserve simply because other women demand the right to “have it all”, whatever that means.  I know this observation won’t be popular and I’m not saying it to attack working mums, but unfortunately it’s the truth. I don’t know how we’re going to change it, I wish I did.

Helen says:

01:46pm | 12/11/09

Thanks to MichelleMac and Ian for bringing the other perspective into the discussion. Yes MM, my strong, lovely, brainy daughter is just finishing off her second last year 12 exam, in which she’s expected to excel, while my lovely, brainy, funny son finishes up his last year of Primary. According to some here, they should be intellectual and emotional wrecks after being childcare alumni for some years of their lives, but mysteriously, not so! How can this be!?

@Bitten [“Oh, I’m feeling really stressed and all what with having to bring my vagina to work every day, could we change my position to part time? ]

Wow, that’s a disgustingly misogynist comment.  It’s good to see women policing the gender roles and reinforcing the patriarchy. You go, girl!

Ian says:

01:56pm | 12/11/09

on the childcare debate - my adult children were both in full time childcare and have turned into high achieving decent human beings. My 11 year old (stepson) with his asperger quirkiness struggled in child care (was asked to leave a centre in Brisbane) and early primary however now he has teachers aware of his needs and his parents understand why he is odd he is thriving.  Miss almost 5 loves childcare, loves preschool, loves life and has a happy smilng soul.  She’s adopted and we know little about her life prior to meeting her at 13 months but as a full on extrovert she needs the company of others.  Indeed she exhausts her mother and me if we have her full time.  We are fortunate that we have access to a good support network through the school and childcare centre.  The pros and cons of childcare are something that all parents must weigh up accordingto their own and the child’s needs.  another difficult balancing issue with no right or wrong answers - just different.

ScienceGeek says:

02:13pm | 12/11/09

Sarrah, you’re absolutely right about work ethic, but frankly, no matter how good your work ethic is, it’s not enough to simply say ‘I don’t want to work 90 hours a week’.  The work that demanded those hours is not going to go away, and if you’re not doing it, then one of your co-workers will have to pick up your slack.  Is it fair to ask any of them to work extra hours because of your child? 
This isn’t sniping, simply something for you, and every other person in your position, to consider.  To waylay any potential arguements, I am completely in favor of a child having two working parents, for the sake of the parents development, as much as their child’s.  I also don’t think it should be wholy the mother’s responsibility to raise the child. 

Regardless of their gender, I’m just yet to meet anybody who can carry the responsibilities of a demanding, full-time job in part-time hours.

Helen says:

02:14pm | 12/11/09

Another point which gets missed a bit, I think, as a child in the 60s I did not experience childcare but I did lose my mum to cancer. Therefore, I think I was inluenced in that I think it’s important that kids have other safe, secure, warm sources of care other than the primary parent. Otherwise, their security is really hostage to fate if anything should happen to that parent. It may not make or break, but I think it’s another thing to weigh in the scales against mum being absolute superparent and all-in-all as far as caring for the kids goes.

Of course, the fact that Dads like Ian are now on the increase is a great plus as well. My dad is a good person but was fairly useless as a primary parent, because in his day and his social stratum,  men just didn’t care for children.

Andrew says:

02:35pm | 12/11/09

Stella, do you understand what a chauvinist is? You are intelligent enough to believe in evolution so you would also understand biology and maternal instincts.
Jamie just because I go to work doesn’t mean I don’t take up my share of the responsibilities and support my wife when I’m at home. Saying that I’m a slacker and a bad dad is an unfair assumption. Your post seems quite nice and fluffy and politically correct. Things aren’t that simple however. I assume that you are not yet a parent. When you find the time in your busy work schedule to pencil in a child you will understand that staying at work and trying to be a mother is not an easy option for women emotionally. It’s not just as simple as handing the duties over to the new age dad or child care centre during the day and trodding off to work to chase those really ‘important’ work goals.  All I’m trying to say is that it’s a difficult choice and in my opinion children benefit from having their mums at home not their dads or child care workers.
Before my wife and I got married we discussed this issue. My wife is doing what she has always wanted to do and is very proud of what she is doing. I wouldn’t force or pressure a women into doing anything.

?? says:

02:35pm | 12/11/09

this is what women wanted, now deal with it. its other women that regard stay at home moms as parasites.  when in fact, its the women out working and leaving their children with strangers or in childcare that are the disfuctionals

Darwin says:

02:45pm | 12/11/09

I love the way you all attack Andrews opinion on the grounds he is a man, eun down his family life and make his wife out to be beaten and chained to the kistchen sink as an answer to your debate Ladies. If this is not about Gender then why do you make Andrew out to be a Man Monster?
It is time to put the Feminist Myth of ‘We can have it all’ to rest and face reality. You all behave like men have it all. The real fact is, Men are more disciplined than you lot. They make huge family sacrifices to support their families and act in a responsible manner while carrying this out. Research shows men are far more productive in the work place, work harder, get along with people better, and bully less than women in the work place. It is nto just the fact that employers do nto want women there becasue they have babies.
To the twat that said all women should hold back and strike until they get what they want in the workplace. hahahah I think all men should do that, and they should stop supplying you with food and clothing and a roof over your head and see how far you get with out governement asistance! Not very far according to Australian statistics! The truth is women get all the support they need We just want more and more and more and the reality is other people have rights too NOT just Women. Women shoudl try being more accomodating instead of thinking they are so worthy and rightful to have everything changed to accomodate their whims!

Darwin says:

02:50pm | 12/11/09

By the way, When you are a mum who has to work to keep a roof over your childrens heads and food in their belly you appreciate the role of a Husband and Father. And when you are exhausted but your day has not ended you appreciate the rest and support that can be given to you from a loving understanding partner, not some nagging crank who bitches at you for nto helping with the dishes!

dilemma says:

03:04pm | 12/11/09

I am 22 and I find it interesting that most people I talk to in the 20-25 bracket say that they would be stay at home mums until the kids are in school… could this have something to do with out mothers putting us in day care at the start of the ‘corporate mum’ movement and understand how much it sucks knowing if I get sick at school I will have to wait an hour for her to get me and she will be preoccupied with whatever client she needs to get hold of? I DETEST the thought of putting my children in child care to chase a job. It makes me sick to my stomach that selfish, narcissistic corporate women would chase a career over their children… mothers who need to work because they have to are a different story, I have no problems with someone doing it because there is no other choice

wamum says:

03:09pm | 12/11/09

I’m over the whole working mum v stay at home mum debate…it’s all the same comments over and over again! Essentially this is all we will ever come to in this debate;

1. If you are a woman who works you are neglecting your children, they will grow up to be social misfits and you will be accountable for your selfishness.
2. If you are a woman who stays at home you are a drain on the economy, obviously not intelligent enough to hold a good job so you just get knocked up to stay home, and your partner will resent you forever for slacking off while he works hard.
3. if you are a woman who chooses to avoid it all by not having children you are selfish, don’t know what you are talking about, haven’t realised how important kids are and will die lonely with many cats.

To sum the debate up you as a woman will NEVER make the right choice, you will NEVER know what is good for you, and you will ALWAYS be the cause of all social problems.

Angel says:

03:09pm | 12/11/09

Darwin - I AM a full-time working mother who plays the role of mother AND father and I think what you are saying is a load of complete tripe!!!!

DJG says:

03:14pm | 12/11/09

About five years into my twenty year career at a Television Newsroom, my ‘stay at home’ wife refused to attend any more workplace social events. The sole reason for her decision? She was fed-up with the regular and constant sniping, by my female colleagues, across the board (reporting, support and clerical), that she was somehow lacking because she had chosen to devote her life to raising our two children. So the tables have turned. Suck it up.

Come on Dads says:

03:30pm | 12/11/09

True Darwin, mums and dads both play important roles and when you’re stuck in either a full-time caring or full-time breadwinning role it can be hard to appreciate the others’ trials.
While looking after kids is hard work, after going back to work I also discovered how dispiriting it is to work hard all day and come home to feral kids and a cranky partner. Managing a family is just plain hard financially and emotionally and perhaps we should all just celebrate what a good job we do, most of the time, however we do it.

Agent says:

03:35pm | 12/11/09

Not all women are maternal, not all women can easily switch from an intellectually stimulating job to dealing with childrens dramas. It isn’t a choice of one or the other. Or at least it shouldn’t be. Men and women should be able to make choices about who stays home and for how long. Women shouldn’t be typecast into the role. And we shouldn’t pillary women who by choice or by necessity choose to work as well as be parents.

As mentioned by others above, what is important is that parnets (both male and female) have the freedom to choose, and that they are judged in the workplace, not on how long they are there, but on how productive they are.

We all know people who sit for hours doing nothing (or spend hours monitoring blogs like this instead of working), and others who can complete a days work an a couple of hours. We need a meaningful discussion about the options, not a a polarised series of rants by the views from the extremities…..

paul says:

03:50pm | 12/11/09

Welcome to the height of the capitalist era, where profit margins and productivity are the religion of our time.  Our society has become an economy and the average citizen is so indoctrinated in this world view that they actually feel guilty about “sacrificing” their career to care for children.  And of course the capitalist system does punish you for wanting to put human priorities above the company profit margin.  How dare you ask for paid maternity leave!!  Or even paternity leave, my god, what next!!  We can’t afford that, as a company director I’ve got repayments on my Mercedes to make!!  You want to have children to continue the human race?  Bah, your problem, but we’ll be waiting to put you back to work again when/if you’ve survived…  And even if you can afford to pay off the mortgage and live a comfortable life when you cut back on work, how on earth will one survive with a reduction in one’s level of conspicuous consumption?  You have been brain washed, wake up!!!  Of course the people at the top of the pyramid, like your Vogue editor, has no such issues as she has accumulated so much wealth that she can buy her way out of any problem.  The system does a great job of supporting the lifestyles of the people at the top of it who control it.  So we all fall into the trap, if only we had more money we could buy our way out of all of our problems too!!  So basically, unless people start standing up for their basic human right to be able to rear their children with support from the system, start making life difficult for politicians over the issue, then things are only going to get worse, not better.

AM says:

03:59pm | 12/11/09

Well, just this week I finally handed in my resignation.  Why, because I am going home to be mum.  With 4 kids I am finally going to be able to be there for my boys first day of school, missed the first two kids first days. I am finally going to be able to teach my baby his first word….was at work for the other three so grandma taught them.  I am finally going to be able to sit and do homework with them, read more with them and generally enjoy their company instead of being tired, stressed after work.  More importantly I am going to be able to help mould and guide 4 babies into mature young adults with aspirations of their own.  Why I worked. Well because I had to. It was a goal to build our home, have our family and all, have our finances sorted etc…and now we are there. We worked hard to get here.
Child care was a godsend when you find staff that you would like to know as friends…its terrifying when you see a child crying injured in the yard with four staff standing and chattin….scenarios most mothers would have seen no doubt and yet have to say goodbye to their tots while leaving them there.
I understand the single mothers who don’t have the support network.  Its hard.  I don’t understand the young 22 yr old who seems to have entitlement issues…..honey my taxes pay for my bonuses thank you.
This debate will not end here.  Australia is so far behind and antiquated in his regard to the child.  Go to any asian, european country and you see strangers going out of their way to help.  Here you are on your own mate and heaven forbid if you are a mother. As a community Australia is terrible when it comes to families.  Paid Maternity leave…if it ever gets introduced in the future…despite me not getting it while I had my kids…I will gladly fork over my tax dollars to support it…...gladly…:)

future undecided says:

04:05pm | 12/11/09

I think as I near the end of a four year degree that it’s difficult to imagine I may not get the chance to put my hard work into practice for 5-10 years if I choose to have children in the next couple of years. I decided to study to become a teacher not only because I love the career i’m about to embark on but also because I know I want children and this job will offer some flexibility so that I can be with them when they are not in school (before that I hope to have me or my partner, or trusted family/friends with them at all times) I loved growing up being looked after by my nan whilst my mum worked part-time - I now know all her stories, how to knit and crochet, how to value the older generation etc etc but my mum has only just found success in her chosen career due to being overlooked whilst “parenting” and is enjoying this too much to do for me as my nan did for her (rightly so).  So after many hours of study, a healthy HECS debt and with plenty of fresh enthusiasm in my blood I may have to postpone stepping into the classroom - or risk reaching an age where it is difficult to conceive when I am ready to hang up my hat. I will want the best for my children and that means I want the balance of my personality and my partners personality influencing their lives everyday, enough money to keep them safe, holidays to discover new places, time with friends and family and above all the knowledge they have two parents who love them. Even if I won lotto I would still want to teach - it seems a pity that in order to have children I won’t be able to. In an ideal world every workplace would offer a creche so parents could spend time with their children around their work - people will ridicule this idea but it takes a whole community to raise a child so why can’t bosses and colleauges be a part of that community?By the way as a childless worker I have covered for working parents and taken my holidays around theirs, I have been happy to go the extra mile and pick up the slack in the hope that through karma one day someone will do the same for me. Even if you choose not to have children why not help out the person raising your future doctor, carer, pharmacist, or health volunteer who you will need to assist you in your old age?

Mirrel says:

04:10pm | 12/11/09

@ Darwin - delete!

Over it says:

04:20pm | 12/11/09

This feels like groundhog day to me - this debate seems to get rehashed all the time. When will we all appreciate that people do what they have to do, does it really matter as long as the children are happy and at the end of the day we all know the likes of the Andrews of this world (who is so experienced in his wise 5 weeks of being a dad) can dish out ill founded rot - take what he says with a grain of salt! He has his morals all over the place, Andrew I’m sure your boss would be thrilled that you have been giving him/her their moneys worth today. If you thought so highly of being a dad, why didn’t you call it a day early and go and spend some time with your family?

Realistic says:

04:32pm | 12/11/09

This trend for “working” parents (either male or female) to be at work rather than home can be put back to Corporate greed.  someone hiked up the price of housing & then it kept going.  all of us aged 35+ are in the trap just to SURVIVE you need more than the basic wage.  i’m sure if 50% of mortgages just chucked it in & went into rural australia to live - there would be chaos - not only from an infrastructure point of view but from a market melt on prices of housing etc.  no where in any capital city do i see where a mortgage can be handled by one income.  Yet Investors get the royal treatment by the ATO - the rest of us are just giving blood from a stone.

Blessed says:

04:55pm | 12/11/09

I don’t want to argue, but as someone who has been a stay at home mother for the past 11 years I would like to say to the working mothers, I understand your need for fulfillment.
I gave up my dream job to be with my son, because there was no way I was going to hand over this precious beautiful child to a complete stranger.
And I understand that staying home is not for everyone. Yes, it can be boring and unglamorous. But please consider this:
I am the netball coach who has to stand on the court for 20 minutes after the game, waiting for you to pick up your child. Strangely, your child isn’t bothered - she’s used to it.
I am the parent who cheers for your child at the end of the running race on sports day, because you couldn’t take the time off.
I am the mother who does not have psychological training, but has to respond to my daughters’ friend who says ‘I wish you were my mummy’.
I am the mother who will drop your child off for you because you are running late, and you call me because you know I’ll be there.
I am the mother who is very very fortunate that I realised what a short period of time it is when my children will need me.
You can call me a helicopter parent, or whatever you please. I call myself blessed.
When you have a child it’s not about you anymore. It’s about your child

Kia says:

05:48pm | 12/11/09

Bravo Blessed…I agree with everything you have said 100%

JACS says:

06:29pm | 12/11/09

How lovely for you Blessed. I guess that obviously you have a partner who can support you all.  Perhaps you could open your eyes a little bit and see that not every working Mum has the choice to stay at home. At not every working mum is career orientated harpie.

And your right it is all about the child. So I am at work so that my child has a roof over her head, is fed and clothed. At the end of the day I am doing what is right for MY family and I will not be judged as being a bad mother by people who have no idea of my circumstances.

Small business owner says:

06:54pm | 12/11/09

As an employer, all I can say is that the flexibility is there in many jobs but it comes at a price. If you choose to devote less time and energy to your job than your colleagues then that’s your decision and most bosses won’t have a problem with it if you’ve been clear about this when signing up for the job. If you do choose this path then don’t claim discrimination when you get passed over for promotion. Those who have put in the long hours and greater effort are going to be more suitable for the more demanding roles and will get selected over those who choose to take time out for their kids. Most parents understand this but some think they should get it all simply because they have kids. Ultimately, your kids are your issue, not your employer’s. Your reasons for rationing your time and energy don’t matter - only your performance on the job.

regina says:

07:25pm | 12/11/09

well it could just be because im exhausted from being everything to everyone that ive become slightly disoriented but ...

i wonder why it is that we don’t we have these heated discussions about being a working father?

oh yeh. that’s right, because fathers are men, and mothers are women.

silly me.

Cass says:

08:33pm | 12/11/09

I must say its funny that this topic has come up because I continuously find myself getting aggitated at the 3 women at my work who have children. It is a real pain. I’m really sick of been inconvienced by them and find myself continuously thinking “why can’t they just stay home and look after their kids?” yes not always that simple but simple fact is people have businesses to run I shouldn’t have to do triple the work cause they can’t work out their finances before they have kids and parents should make every effort to stay home with there children. Its called getting a mortgage you can afford!! and looking outside the square.

chelle says:

12:16am | 13/11/09

Susie.  I hope you see this reply.

How raw and honest was your reply! 

As a woman who has been EXACTLY where you are -  I wish that you will make the break - with civility and kindeness - but make the break!!

I remember years of hearing   ‘it’s alright for you…swanning around the house all day…blah blah blah…’...  it’s a mongrel way to make you feel and it’s wrong!  And it’s not good enough.

I truly hope you see this post and - michelle.parker@ozemail.com.au - would love to keep in touch…

Halberstram says:

07:51am | 13/11/09

Whatever happens, when you finally get your child into childcare, don’t forget to give thanks everyday to the Australian taxpayer who subsidises your childcare cost to a significant extent.

Be grateful that Australia provides a generous middle-class welfare system which you are part of.

Andrew says:

08:05am | 13/11/09

To be totally honest I don’t really care if women go off to work and leave their children in day care. They are not my children. What annoys me is this constant need for these working women to justify their actions and gain everyones approval and acceptance. I think that they even like to picture themselves as being soldiers in the fight for feminism. If leaving your kids in day care while you chase your career goals is the choice you have made, then why would it matter what someone like me thinks. All I did was provide an oppinion. Why even respond to the things I write. It’s not illegal to work and put your kids in child care so what are these women trying to achieve by writing articles and posts like these. The reason I think that these women write these articles and posts is because deep down in their own minds they have this little niggling feeling that tells them they’re selfish and their priorities are wrong and they require the support of other women that have made the same choice. They try to turn the debate into a feminism issue rather than an issue of child development. A bad conscience is a terrible thing to battle with. 2 questions - Could you look after your own children better than someone at a child care centre? Is your company’s bottom line or your bank account more important than you childs well being?
To ‘over it’, I don’t know where you work but where i work just because you have a slow day doesn’t mean you can just pack up and head home. Also, why don’t you try arguing against the points that I have raised rather than just a simple blanket response. You seem like the sort of person that would talk alot and say nothing.
By the way this is my last post. You can all go back to patting each other on the back. I am strong, I am invincible, I am woman. Smash those glass ceilings. Put your suits on, storm into those boardrooms and fight those oppressive men head on, while some under paid woman tries to look after all your kids in a day care centre. You go girls!

Kris says:

09:18am | 13/11/09

Enjoyable article. 

However, in every single media piece I have ever read on this subject the commentator automatically assumes there are two parents and two incomes involved. Assumptions such as these are frustrating for people like me.

Increasingly there is one parent, one income and no choice. It would be refreshing to see a journo look at this angle. Even just once.

I wish I could have stayed at home full time and cared for my daughter (who is now five & starting school next year). I wish I could have been there more for her, I wish I didn’t have to use child care.  But I did make a few important choices.  I turned down the higher paid, full time roles (that I used to do).  Stuck to four days a week, made sure I worked sensible hours, earnt less, spent less, had lower expectations in many, many regards.

I am a university educated, professional person.  And I made a choice, my first priority is to invest my time and effort into my daughter’s happiness and future.  Everything else is secondary at this time.

Please stop this futile war between ‘stay at home’ and ‘go to work’ mums.  Please stop assuming that one size fits all and please try to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes before you judge them.

Flip sides says:

09:44am | 13/11/09

Chell “Yes. I manage a child care centre - have seen it all!”

Seriously, I’m so glad you’re not taking care of my child - to be honest you sound a bit unhappy in your job. That can’t be good for anyone.

Our son was a ‘surprise’ addition who arrived when I was 39. I took off 6 months for maternity leave (6 weeks was paid) and during this time our mortgage rose $100 a week. 

While I understand this arguement will go round and round forever, I despair at the inference that all child care is negative for children. The men and women who take care of our little boy are an inspiration, a support and an invaluable guide to both my husband and myself as we navigate our way through parenthood. I’ve heard it said that it takes a village to raise a child - I know my son’s life is richer for having spent time with these wonderful people.

Instead of comparing ourselves to other couples, complaining about lack of choices, or generally focusing on the negative aspects of our situation, largely our life together is beautiful. Yes we’re tired on week days, yes by the end of the week we’re all a little stretched keeping up with the housework, but you only have to look at the joy in our son’s eyes when he sees either of us - or his extended family at daycare to know that he’s happy and we’re doing OK.

And frankly when I sit at the dinner table each night at look at my family I feel grateful.

I can’t honestly say whether I would be working at all if we had the choice - but I do know that it would be far more productive to find a way for society to change its attitudes and provide support (and I don’t mean monetary) to all parents, than be constantly looking for inadequacies and blame.

PS I look forward to seeing all the staff at the childcare centre each day - in reality they’re part of our family. If they’re judging me they’re very good actors - and I should point out some of them are mothers themselves with children in other centres.

Kathleen says:

10:34am | 13/11/09

Flexible workplaces and support for working parents make perfect business and social sense.
I am in a professional career and lucky enough to have an employer who values my contribution. I worked long and hard for them before I had my first child, and they understand that if they give me some flexibility for a few years, I will be more likely to stay with them and repay their investment throughout the remaining productive decades of my working life.
My husband’s work roster also has some flexibility, and it allows us both to work the equivalent of full-time, but usually only need one day of childcare a week. My son loves his days with Dad and we each have satisfying lives inside and outside our home.
It’s a busy juggle, but it works for us and we’re all happy - isn’t that important? I guess I’m lucky enough to be eating that cake. With support instead of criticism, women and men can be parents and employees.

Darwin says:

12:44pm | 13/11/09

@Blessed Blessed I woudl like to thank you. I cannto speak on behalf of other Mothers but if you stayed behind with my child at netball becasue I was late, I would buy you flowers. So thank you and keep up the good work
@JACS Your dripping sarcasm is unappreciated. If you expect others to treat you with respect I suggest you do the same. Perhaps if you thought of others besides yourself you too coudl put something back into this broken world or at least be grateful to those who do. I woudl hate to be your childs volunteer football coach or child carer. What kind of person runs another one day for offering a safe free public service to children?
@ Angel I do not belive you. I am a single mum and have raised 4 children on my own with very little support from dad. I have had to manage so many things too numerous to mention to ensure the well being of my children.
@Mirrel…Mirrel who?
@Kia hahaha very clever and indeed you shall!
@Libbie, My point exactly!
@Michellemac   hahahah You have years to go. Stay smug and prosper!
@Halberstram Absolutely. The cost of children does not just cost the parents anymore. While parents are sucking up their middle class welfare remember at what cost not just to the tax payer, to the employees, other workers picking up the slack, and all the tax payer funding that could be going to other places that are in greater need.

People need to ask themselves what they can really afford if they were paying ofr all of these things themselves. If you had to pay ALL you child care, The days you need off because of your children, late to work early to leave, time to breastfeed ect ect.
I would like someone to explain to me why people think it is thier human right to be entitled to funding to help raise their children and your lifestyle?
Why do others have to pay for your family choices?
Why, when you are free to make decisions for your family, do you insist it COSTS the rest of us so much. Freedom goes both ways.
As for the left wing approach of awaiting the karmic experience of being repaid by future generations for the efforts you put in. You may as well play the pokies. The only real and certain investment is family! Stop gambling with it.
Working mums always talk about there children’s achievements (I would ask the teachers for a more balanced opinion on that) What they do with their children in their very minimal time. But where is the enjoyment. To fit in all you claim to fit in you woudl be so rushed. Kudos to all parents who manage to enjoy their children. Do not let anyone take that away from you. That is the real achievement.

Flip sides says:

12:44pm | 13/11/09

“while some under paid woman tries to look after all your kids in a day care centre”

There’s 5 guys working at my son’s centre. Kind of underlines the point of some other posts that you seem a little stuck on the responsibility remaining with the mother/women.

But I agree, we pay parking attendants more than child care workers in this country. I think it’s appalling - perhaps this springs from the community at large undervaluing their incredible support in raising our children.

I don’t feel guilty that I have to accept this help, I think I’m lucky that the support exists at all and I am in awe of their skill and commitment.

Helen says:

03:04pm | 13/11/09

[ am the mother who does not have psychological training, but has to respond to my daughters’ friend who says ‘I wish you were my mummy’.]

How nice for you. But you’re not exactly helping the image of SAHMs as being impossibly smug. How often does that happen? Once a week? every day?

[You can call me a helicopter parent, or whatever you please. I call myself blessed.]

No, I’d still say smug covers it.

[When you have a child it’s not about you anymore. It’s about your child ]

It looks from here as it it’s very much about you.

Oh, and you know? As a working mum I tag team with other mums for the pickups. I actually take the weight off others as well as having the weight taken off me in other areas. Tag-teaming, sharing. But you would rather paint working mums as selfish monsters, because it makes you feel good.

halberstram says:

03:58pm | 13/11/09

Flip sides says: ” But I agree, we pay parking attendants more than child care workers in this country. I think it’s appalling”

Maybe parents should be prepared to pay more of the freight then and give these people waht you think they deserve ??

john le mez says:

05:19pm | 13/11/09

the first five years are crucial - it’s when the blueprint is laid down. you can’t get this time back, and expensive lounges, sunglasses, SUVs, pools and holidays will not do the trick.
now, let’s say you have two kids two years apart and decide to wait until both are at school before going back to work. That means about seven years out of the workforce. In a career of, say, 45 years, it still leaves 38 years of work. (and lots of juggling for both parents).
That said, I have limitless respect for mums who HAVE to work just to pay bills and put food on the table. It’s the ones that do it because they WANT to that make me sad.

Kidfree! says:

05:41pm | 23/11/09

What is it about having children that turns normal women into psychotic, jealous, sniping harpies?  So some mothers work, that is their decision or their need, so what?  Some women have to, and working mums don’t find the mindless, never ending baby talk and drudgery of motherhood endlessly fascinating.  SAHMs don’t need the endless hours, meetings and endless drudgery and gossipy minefield of work - each to their own.  I once read a saying “Having children gives boring women something to do” - should be “Having children gives nasty women something else to snipe about”