My local pub has seen its fair share of drunk and disorderly disasters. Over the years it has survived groggy onslaughts from stonkered labourers, juiced-up trivia contestants and spiflicated garage banders.

Hey, let's face it, sometimes the food portions are kid-sized

Pretty much the lot, really. But last Wednesday the crusty tranquility of my favourite beer garden was invaded by an undesirable element more riotous than any which had come before.

The barbarians invaded at exactly beer o’clock. Their eyes were wild, their garments were dishevelled and they ate and drank with Conan-strength abandon.

Deaf to the pleas and pules of their fellow patrons, these raging revellers thought nothing of fighting, smashing glasses, and hurling soggy chicken nuggets at anyone foolish enough to complain.

At one dreadful point, several lost complete control (and we’re talking bladders and bowels). They were tsunami-like, they really were.

And I wanted to move to a quieter section of the pub, I really did.

But as the mother of one of the ringleaders of this pack of party hard preschoolers, I felt obliged to sit it out, occasionally shouting “please don’t steal the nice emo’s cigarettes” and “how about NOT using the glass ashtray as a Frisbee?” to create at least the illusion of responsible motherhood.

The back story is that someone from my daughter’s day care centre had suggested we all meet down at our local’s “family friendly” beer garden for dinner.

It certainly seemed like a good idea at the time. Plus it gave us the chance to train our two-, three- and four-year-olds to say “see ya down the pub” (a perversely pleasurable activity on par with the politically incorrect frisson offered by Noni Hazlehurst reading “go the f—- to sleep”).

Anyway. As you may have gathered, it all went horribly pear shaped, as well as occasionally puke and poo shaped.

The main problem was the irresistible lure of age appropriate activities. We grown ups did our best to remain parent-like. But the unexpected combination of alcohol and adult company at 5.30 on a school night was truly intoxicating, and many of us found ourselves distracted by quiet and civilized conversations about topics that had nothing to do with “eating up” or “your vegetables”.

The small people, meanwhile, made a token effort to sit up at the tables like humans. But the unexpected presence of so many raucous peers during what was usually “calming down time” left them helpless in the face of their deep biological urges to create as much chaos, make as much noise, and use as many bar stools as astronautic launching pads as possible.

As a procreator whose parenting style leans towards the helicopter method, I did spend some time hovering over the swarm in an attempt to keep the plant wreckage, goth staring and gaming room invasions to a minimum.

Peeved patrons and – at one point – the disgruntled publican therefore singled me out as the spokesparent for the group, offering assorted instructions and censures.

“Control your children,” hissed one ancient outdoor smoker who looked well on her way to cat woman-ism. “Control your sidestream emissions of carcinogens and particulate-matter,” I wanted to hiss back.

But by then I’d lost the power of speech. By then I was too horror-stricken at the realisation that I had crossed over: I had stopped being one of those people who tch tch-s and ostentatiously changes tables to avoid loud children, and become the official representative of the menace.

It is in this weighty role, therefore, that I weigh into the Debate du Jour about whether more fine dining and wining establishments should be child-free.

A jet set version of this argument erupted earlier this year when Malaysia Airlines banned infants flying in its first class cabins.

Now this (literally quite sticky) issue has flared again in Pennsylvania where an eatery attached to a golf driving range has decided to institute the restaurant equivalent of one of those “you must be this high to ride” sideshow signs by banning patrons under six.

McDain’s bills itself as upscale and has never had an official children’s menu (although it does offer a number of distinctly G-rated dishes including broccoli and cheese bites, stuffed tater tots and something called chicken Ashlee). 

“I’m doing this on behalf of all the kind, refined people who have emailed me who have had meals ruined,” says Mike Vuick, the former high school sociology and psychology teacher who owns McDain’s. “I’ve decided someone in our society had to dig their heels in on this issue.”

Vuick has since become a pin-up bloke for child-free civility, conducting international radio and television interviews, and receiving thousands of emails, which are apparently running about 11 to 1 in his favour.

Denying accusations of child-hating, Vuick is especially down on babies and their uncontrollable volumes. “There may be restaurants that prefer to cater to such things,” he’s said. “[But] not here. I think it’s the height of being impolite and selfish and so, therefore, I instituted a policy.”

Well. I’ll be the first to admit that my whippersnapper routinely adds a raucousness to other people’s fine dining experiences – including, on multiple occasions, my own.

Yet, like freak hour traffic, post-cyclone banana prices, and flatulent pensioners who moult into their custard, surely crazy kids are simply one of those annoying facts of life we sometimes just have to endure with grace.

It’s also worth remembering that many pub-goers who do not have age as an excuse engage in anti-social activities. (Beery ogling, post-schooner street fighting and tuneless group singing as just three scary examples.)

Grown ups are also guilty of objectionable behaviour in fancy tater tot restaurants such as McDain’s. I once dined at Tetsuya’s and the dude at the table next door made about 200 increasingly drunk and voluminous mobile phone calls to tell everyone he was dining at Tetsuya’s. Certainly no-one intervened to withdraw his cheese bite privileges.

In short, I think that while parents in cafes, restaurants and beer gardens can sometimes be a little slack, childless diners frequently overreact rather than modelling good, tolerant behaviour of their own.

Hint: a side serve of live-and-let-live-ism is the perfect accompaniment to a steaming bowl of chicken Epponnee-Rae…

And now, if you will excuse me, I’m off to lunch at one of those restaurants with crisp linen, white china and rows of inexplicable oyster forks. I will be dragging my four-year-old along, but hope to keep her quiet by plugging her Matrix-style into some sort of electronic iDevice.

Now that’ll stop the judgmental looks and head shaking about my bad parenting.

See more of Emma Jane’s goodness at The Australian.

82 comments

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    • Cloud Strife says:

      08:11am | 25/07/11

      I think it all depends on the parents and the establishment.

      If your kids are running riot in Maccas, well, that’s really not a big deal, as all the other kids are doing the same thing.

      However, if your kids are running riot at the Flower Drum, you might have a problem.

      If the kids are well behaved, I don’t see why they shouldn’t eat with the grown ups. But you see too many times kids screaming and running around a restaurant, almost taking waitstaff out and ending up with someone else’s dinner on their heads, while the parents ignore them. That’s the problem with kids in fine dining establishments - the parents who don’t control them.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:59pm | 25/07/11

      I agree with Cloud Strife.  I have no problem with kids in fine dining restaurants if they’re sitting at the table and behaving themselves, and most of the time they are. It’s parents like the OP that spoil it for everybody else by letting their kids run riot, simply because they can’t be bothered to make them behave.  It’s inconsiderate and inexusable.
      I remember, when being taken to restaurants as children, my siblings and I were told in no uncertain terms that we were expected to remain seated at the table and to behave ourselves, otherwise we would not be allowed to go next time. The thought of being left out of such an event was enough to make us stay in our seats.
      Rather than ban kids altogether, perhaps restaurants should make it very clear at the time of booking that if children are not kept controlled and quiet, the party will be asked to leave.  In other words, put the onus on the parents to make sure that their children behave. You know, just like the old days.

    • Jeff from Meroo says:

      08:13am | 25/07/11

      Let me guess, you also loved breast feeding your brat in public?

      It is parents like you that love the “look at me, I procreated!” feeling you get when you ruin the nights of those that have gone to the extreme trouble and expense to hire a babysitter so they could go out and enjoy a peaceful night out.

      There are times and places for everything.  As a parent you need to learn that pubs are not for children and simply because the condom broke doesn’t give you the right to ruin the evening of everyone around you.

    • ibast says:

      09:19am | 25/07/11

      “There are times and places for everything.  As a parent you need to learn that pubs are not for children”

      Really?  Maybe not the main bar, the TAB or Pokkie room (which you can’t take kids in anyway) but the pub bistro or beer garden would IMO be one of the better places for a family dinner.  Sure you’ve got to pick you pub and that’s tough in NSW, but some pubs are very family orientated.  In WA , where pokkies are not present I’d say most are a good spot for a family dinner.

    • Jeff from Meroo says:

      08:27pm | 25/07/11

      ibast:  Pubs are NOT family places.  If you want to go out for a family dinner go to a family resturant but keep your dirty, filthy, loud, unbehaved spawns of satan out of the pub… which is now the LAST place someone can go to get away from your little germ-bag terrorists.

    • Allan says:

      09:51am | 26/07/11

      Hi Jeff: When you get a chance can you supply me with a list of your favoured watering holes? Just your top ten most visited will do. Kids or no kids, I’d really like to avoid bumping into you. Thanks

    • deb says:

      08:21am | 25/07/11

      Personally i cant stand to see kids outside of television.At least i can change channels.Brats dont belong in pubs,people go to pubs so they can be loud ,noisy ,down right rude and fart if they please.
      No-one go`s to the pub to put up with the kids.these days children is a dirty word! Not aloud,please,might upset the little darlings.
      Let them grow up without the discipline needed to install manners. Seen and not heard,remember that one?
      I can remember getting a slap around the head for interupting grown-ups,now we are expected to smile and let the monsters have full rein.
      Keep out!

    • AJ says:

      09:50am | 25/07/11

      Obnoxious and ill-mannered people like you who think it’s ok to act like a tool because you are an adult are the exact reason why I don’t take my civilised and well-mannered children to pubs.
      Please spellcheck your nonsense before you post it too.

    • PG says:

      10:21am | 25/07/11

      “Brats dont belong in pubs”

      Indeed, and there’s no age restriction on brats that shouldn’t be allowed in pubs either!

      Emma Jane if you expect people to be tolerant, you need to show that you are trying to teach your children to have some respect for other people in public places. Knowing how ballistic children can get at day care, you should have known better. When they see all their companions from day care in the same place they will assume they can be just as ballistic no matter where they are.

    • Martin says:

      04:13pm | 25/07/11

      Hey AJ,  you’ve really got your nose up your own backside, haven’t you. “Please spellcheck your nonsense”. I guess you also need Deb to check if her “nonsense” is also politically correct as well? What pretentious nonsense.AJ. Had to laugh, Deb says “brats don’t belong in pubs” and then you agree with her by saying “the exact reason why I don’t take my…..........children to pubs” Exactly, AJ, exactly.

    • Susan says:

      04:21pm | 25/07/11

      I believe Deb is being facetious.

    • Heinz Bauchler says:

      08:28am | 25/07/11

      There are occasions that should be free of children to a certain age. Toddlers and small children cannot always be controlled so as not to interupt the paid pleasure of adults. I do not believe that an opera or other special event, including genuine fine dining venues should be places where parents take their little ones. Then again, there are many of all ages that also manage to spoil a good occasion with their booring, loud behaviour. i think it should really be in the hands of an establishment to decide when enough is enough and act in the interest of the greater good.

    • Ruby says:

      01:37pm | 27/07/11

      I went to the Sydney Symphony at the Opera House once, paid a lot of money, and inexplicably, someone thought it was appropriate to bring their baby in. Of course it cried and cried. Why the fuck would anyone bring a baby to see the Symphony? It completely ruined the show for everyone. They didn’t bother to take it outside for about 40 minutes of crying, which was half the show. Outrageous behaviour. If you can afford to go to the Opera House to see the Sydney Symphony then you can afford a babysitter.

    • nick says:

      06:22pm | 14/12/11

      (And that age is 18)

    • iansand says:

      08:30am | 25/07/11

      Synopsis:  I have failed to bring up my child properly.

    • Anne71 says:

      01:01pm | 25/07/11

      It’s comments like this that make me wish that The Punch had a “Like” button!

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      08:31am | 25/07/11

      Any business that wishes to cater for children, can. Any business that does not wish to, should not have to. Just as you can choose who you invite into your home, business premises are private property and should be able to be treated as such.  So if you don’t want to cater for children, smelly people, people in thongs, people in burkas, you shouldn’t have to. That’s competition. A free market. (Yes, novel concepts). Since the publican was responsible for the public liability insurance (just image if one of the little ‘angels’ had gone face first into the ground whilst carrying a glass ashtray or injured themselves leaping off a bar stool) he should be able to choose who he allows in.  Some pubs have playground areas. Their choice, they obviously think they will make more money.  Go to one of those.
      NB:  I have dined at a number of fine dining establishments with a friend and her small child, who was always perfectly behaved.  So maybe if parents trained their children how to act in a civilized fashion, more places would be happy to cater to them

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      08:52am | 25/07/11

      Yes absolutely. You dont pay $300pp at tetsuyas and expect to have to contend with screaming kids leave them at home with the babysitter and pizza.

    • Fiona says:

      09:22am | 25/07/11

      Do you pay that much to listen to someone else’s loud phone conversation? That gets my goat just as much.
      Agree with cloud strife, control your kids and less will object, except those like Jeff and deb who will object just because they can.

    • Direct says:

      09:39am | 25/07/11

      I’m more than happy to allow your children into adult establishments that I frequent as long as you’re happy for me to physically discipline them.

    • RobJ says:

      09:56am | 25/07/11

      Heh, I’d like to see anyone try and assua…. err physically discipline my child. Direct, do you support corporal punishment of adults? ie if you stuff up should your boss be allowed to hit you? No? Then why would one hit children?

    • OchreBunyip says:

      11:09am | 25/07/11

      @RobJ, Children do not have the reasoning abilities that adults are required to have; minor physical discomfort (a smack on the bottom) is sometimes necessary to guide the learning behaviour of children. It is not assault, no matter how you might like to pretend it is. There is a reason we don’t let children vote, drive vehicles or handle firearms - they are not capable of making adult decisions. If their parents are also incapable of making adult decisions then that only escalates the issue.

    • RobJ says:

      12:19pm | 25/07/11

      “Children do not have the reasoning abilities”

      Even more reason to refrain.

      ” is sometimes necessary to guide the learning behaviour of children.”

      Not in my experience.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:34pm | 25/07/11

      “Even more reason to refrain.”

      So, you can’t reason with them, you can’t physically stop them, so your solution is to do nothing.  Excellent.  Explains a lot of behavior these days.

      “No Tommy, don’t kick the cat”. 

      “Oh, he still kicked it.  What do we do?”

      “Well, we can’t stop him unless we want to watch him 24 hours, because he’s knows that there’s no repercussions.”

      “Hmm.  Maybe we should blame the people who own the cat?”

      “Yeah!  How dare they!”

      And so on.  Welcome to demon-raising 101.

    • papachango says:

      12:39pm | 25/07/11

      @Direct - try that and watch a Mum’s instinct to protect her cubs come out. It would make Wendy Deng seem like a turtledove by comparison.

    • RobJ says:

      03:13pm | 25/07/11

      That’s some black and white universe you reside in Tim the Toolman. Can’t reason? Smack ‘em!

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      04:45pm | 25/07/11

      “That’s some black and white universe you reside in Tim the Toolman. Can’t reason? Smack ‘em! “

      I do what works instead of tying myself into unnecessary metaphysical knots to satisfy an ideology that is unproven.

    • RobJ says:

      11:33am | 26/07/11

      “I do what works instead of tying myself into unnecessary metaphysical knots to satisfy an ideology that is unproven”

      Me also, thing is I don’t have to resort to violence. (unlike you).

    • Elphaba says:

      09:51am | 25/07/11

      “It’s also worth remembering that many pub-goers who do not have age as an excuse engage in anti-social activities.”

      So… if everyone jumps off a cliff you should too?

      Look, I have no problem with kids in restaurants, because the kid’s bad behaviour is a manifestation of poor parenting.  My parents put the fear of God (and smacked bottoms) into us before we went out anywhere.  “Behave or you’ll have to sit in the car’ was a frequent threat.  We never behaved like the kids you’re describing.  And if that’s the way most kids act, then I sympathise with restaurant owners banning kids.

      If your child acts like the proverbial moster when you go out, and does not have a serious condition like autism, then it is a comment on your parenting style.  There is no excuse for children to run riot in a restaurant or other adult environment.  At home, you let them do what you like.  But if live and let live is your philosophy, it goes both ways.  Train them, or leave them with the babysitter.

    • Zaf says:

      09:57am | 25/07/11

      [surely crazy kids are simply one of those annoying facts of life we sometimes just have to endure gracefully]

      Apparently not, now that some restaurants are banning them.

      How about you being graceful about not taking your kids to adult places that YOU really want to go to, but which your kids aren’t ready for?  How about you model this graceful, considerate behaviour you’re talking about?

    • Tigger says:

      11:07am | 25/07/11

      Amen to that. Parents who can’t control their kids are always preaching for others to be tolerant. However, I never see *them* being considerate to or tolerant of the needs of other people around them.

    • meh says:

      12:17pm | 25/07/11

      If you’re intolerant of them not being tolerant can you really expect them to be tolerant of your tolerance? If you didn’t consider the reciprocal nature of the tolerance of tolerance, should you really start your argument with (paraphrased), “I’m intolerance of people telling me to be tolerant”, lest people dismiss you as just being an intolerant hypocrite?

    • Penelope says:

      10:19am | 25/07/11

      I was reared by parents educated in the type of environment that ensured good manners were the expected thing. They passed their genteelness on to me. I don’t frequent public houses and I certainly wouldn’t allow my children to be seen within a hundred miles of such a place. How any mother would deliberately take them there is beyong my understanding.
      Fine dining should be just that—fine. Not a rowdy melee of screaming, fighting, and yes, swearing juveniles who will probably grow up to be grog-swilling criminals, owing to a lack of decent parentage.
      The dining places frequented by my circle are conducted in a socially accepted manner. The children, who are usually at home with their Nanny,
      but who, on special occasions are permitted to accompany one, are superlatively behaved. It’s their upbringing, you see.
      The only thing I would like to add is that poker machines, (which I find quite amusing), should be removed from hotels frequented by the working class, given that their income does not allow for that type of entertainment.
      Thank you for allowing me to contribute some of my, and my friends’ values.

    • mike j says:

      11:47am | 25/07/11

      “poker machines, (which I find quite amusing), should be removed from hotels frequented by the working class, given that their income does not allow for that type of entertainment”

      So… children AND the working class should have nannies?

      Go back to communist Russia, Mary Poppins.

    • Anne71 says:

      01:03pm | 25/07/11

      Please Do Not Feed The Troll.

    • meh says:

      01:55pm | 25/07/11

      Anne71 - at least the troll was funny in a Kevin of Double Bay way. Reading some of the comments you get a feeling no one would be allowed into a pub until they graduated from a finishing school. Pinkie out when holding the pint.

      Emma and friends went somewhere that could handle little tikes when in normal form and got blown away by their demon natures coming to the fore. Every parent gets caught out by that at times.

    • penelope says:

      04:30pm | 25/07/11

      Mike j and Anne71 should take a leaf out of the book of Meh, and Jimbo.
      Of course I’m from Double bay, in fact I live at the Parramatta Rd. end.
      MikeJ was easy, Anne71 was a breeze.
      Now I’ll just troll my way back to communist Russia. I’ve had my fun. A bit of fishing and I caught two snappers, and two more discerning and intelligent posters got away. ( That Mike j is a wierd one isn’t he.)

    • Anne71 says:

      04:58pm | 25/07/11

      In what way was I “easy”, Penelope? I identified you as a troll, didn’t I?
      Or are you just grumpy because you were so easy to spot as one? Either way, you’re not that original. Kevin from Double Bay did it first, and much better. Mahalo.

    • Dave says:

      05:12pm | 25/07/11

      @Anne71 - who is Kevin and where is Double Bay?

    • Ribald Gadfly says:

      10:20am | 25/07/11

      This is a call a parent needs to make based on their own children and the results of their parenting style.
      I’ve taken mine to eat at many pretty decent restaurants and they have known how to behave. (There are exceptions though - with a entire restaurant in Northern France breathing a sigh of relief when we opted to dine in our rooms after my son heaved the contents of a recently consumed baby meal on to the starched table cloth.)
      You’ll know if your children behave - this means you need to eat at a dining table at home, so they get practice at sitting still and behaiving at a table - how to hold cutlery and so on, what used to be called table manners.
      If you don’t have that confidence then be prepared to take the opprobrium of paying guests who are having their evening disturbed through no fault of their own.

    • graham says:

      11:08am | 25/07/11

      They eat babies in France? Sacre blue!  I knew about frog’s legs, but…

    • Anne71 says:

      01:07pm | 25/07/11

      Ribald, a child throwing up in a restaurant is an unfortunate accident, albeit a rather unpleasant one for those in the immediate vicinity wink No reasonable person would blame the parents or the child for it.
      On behalf of all of us who enjoy fine dining, please accept my thanks for teaching your children how to behave in restaurants.  You have our gratitude, believe me.

    • jimbo says:

      11:05am | 25/07/11

      Dear Penelope.  I agree with you completely.  By the way,  you’re not from Double Bay too are you?

    • Tigger says:

      11:13am | 25/07/11

      We recently had a housewarming, and a small band of young kids were literally destroying the place. Banging furniture into walls and making marks in the walls, jumping on a white sofa with their shoes on, etc. Their parents were oblivious to it all. How rude, to go into someone else’s house that they just moved into and destroy it.

      It’s an old house. Eventually we will rebuild. When we do, when we have a housewarming for our brand new house, I am going to insist that children are fully supervised or do not attend. I might seem rude to them. But I would rather be rude than have my brand new place destroyed.

    • mike j says:

      11:24am | 25/07/11

      “Control your sidestream emissions of carcinogens and particulate-matter”

      Snap! Good comeback! Because another person’s legal behaviours that don’t affect you are good excuses for your poor parenting.

      “the dude at the table next door made about 200 increasingly drunk and voluminous mobile phone calls”

      Even after you politely asked him to keep it down? How rude. Unfortunately, small children are also incapable of taking such instruction. All of them - not just the drunk ones. And they don’t offset their disruption by spending a lot of money, either.

      “childless diners frequently overreact rather than modelling good, tolerant behaviour of their own.”

      You wouldn’t know tolerance if it ran you down with a golf cart.

    • MF says:

      11:53am | 25/07/11

      The biggest reason I remain childless is because I DON’T LIKE KIDS. Sometimes I want to be able to go out and know that I’m not going to have to put up with them. I’m not ill behaved when I go out, so that has nothing to do with it. I know sometimes it’s unavoidable, but it would be nice to have a guarantee of it not being an issue in some establishments.

    • gman says:

      11:58am | 25/07/11

      I used to hate it when ‘bub’s club’ came to the bar I used to work at.

      They would occupy an exceedingly large portion of the beer garden, often blocking egress with an armada of prams and clusters of bags the size of sandbags. Move all the furniture so that they got the comfy seats and simply pushed the stools into the corner where no one could get to them. Order a single bottle of wine and then demand eleven glasses even though the majority of them were knocked up again and it’s no longer acceptable to have a tipple when 3.5hrs pregnant. Look disapprovingly upon those that slinked outside to have a smoke-o, and hiss at them demands that they move away as they didn’t want their children exposed to smoke. Queue at the bar line abreast chatting indefinately whether the carbs in the bruschetta was ok on her diet and how she can’t ever expect to wear a bikini again, to the agreements of the rest of her party and the groan of thirsty patrons dislocated from their barman some ten feet away, only to string-order a dozen lemon, lime and bitters and a jug of water, again, with eleven glasses.

      All the while us bar-staff are herding children away from the pokie and TAB area lest the LAB walk in and fine us $5500 each. Just what a uni student needs, a baby-sitting job in a pub.

    • Martin says:

      03:59pm | 25/07/11

      Probably tempting to overdo the bitters gman @ around 48% alcohol, could of brought about a surprising result! Couldn’t agree with you more BTW . You needed a resident disruption squad, you know some farting beer swilling yobbos smoking cigs and laughing loudly . The mothers club would have headed off pretty quickly LOL!

    • Tigger says:

      12:13pm | 25/07/11

      I wonder why fine dining places don’t charge a surcharge for children? They already charge corkage if you can BYO, they charge for water out of a bottle, etc. Why not have a kids menu with exorbitant prices?

    • Eleanor says:

      12:49pm | 25/07/11

      To be honest, I’m not a fan of kids plus dining. On Saturday, myself and some female coworkers went out to lunch and, as is given to happen after a couple of glasses of pinot grigio, the conversation turned a bit raunchy.

      A group of adults sitting a couple of tables across had a bunch of toddlers with them who were wandering about the place and one of them meandered over to our table, within earshot of our…erm…discussions.

      Thanks to a hasty kick under the table, we quickly swapped topics to something more G rated, but still - is it too much to ask that we be allowed to let our hair down in a nice restaurant without having to worry about scarring some child for life? This was a pretty snazzy place, too, so I doubt the kids were going to appreciate the fact that the mince in their kids burger was Wagyu beef.

      I guess half my point is kids probably don’t like being at restaurants more than you like taking them there. They’re too young to appreciate conversation and are more than likely just going to get bored and fussy, and when you’re at an age when fine dining constitutes some bangers and mash and peas, maybe everyone would be better off finding a sitter?

    • Kate says:

      06:55pm | 25/07/11

      Spot on. Kids like spag bol, fish and chips, and chicken nuggets. There is no point taking children to a restaurant where they’ll hate all of the food and be bored shitless.

    • Alvin Purple says:

      01:01pm | 25/07/11

      kids get in the way of a good time every time.

    • DaJackal says:

      01:30pm | 25/07/11

      Parents should be ejected from restaurants if they cannot control their children; this should teach these laissez faire hippie parents a thing or two. It’s important to be reasonable as well, if too many midgets are running about; trip one as they pass, children behave better when they see another child injured.

    • Paul Murray says:

      01:43pm | 25/07/11

      Slip the goddam sprogs half a shot of sambucca when the bloody parents take a momentary break from exercising their right to make everyone else’s life as much a misery as their own has become.

    • Mahhrat says:

      01:52pm | 25/07/11

      The fact that some parents can’t control their kids, or that otherwise good kids are having a bad day, shouldn’t ruin it for everyone.

      I respect a private businessman’s right to refuse clients on whatever basis he likes.  Similarly, I’d hope that as adults we’d all be responsible and mature enough to either acknowledge when our kids are acting out, make good as needed and go elsewhere, or calmly and rationally deal with each situation on its merits.

      Unfortunately, it’s not unruly kids that are the major culprit here, as much as our vastly diminished ability to handle even minor annoyances with anything like the kind of maturity we should be capable of showing.  It’s yet another example of the influence of the internet and the social media revolution.

    • Dan says:

      04:22pm | 25/07/11

      Agreed, great post!

    • Anne71 says:

      08:15am | 26/07/11

      Sorry, Mahhrat, I don’t consider a pack of children chasing each other around tables and screeching when one is trying to enjoy dinner at a good restaurant to be a “minor annoyance”.  If I wanted that sort of atmosphere I’d go to McDonalds or Sizzlers.

    • Monica says:

      01:52pm | 25/07/11

      It’s really simple… The more children in a party, the more likely they will be raucous :| We have (relatively) well behaved children so we have no qualms going to a fine dining restaurant as a family of 4. To go to the same restaurant with two other families and their offspring? You gotta be joking. We restrict family dinner outings to more appropriate places. It’s commonsense but we all know that the world’s fast running out of this most valuable of commodities.

      If restaurants want to keep the kids out just remove the high chairs and children’s menu; advise families of that on booking and 80% will probably choose to go elsewhere. If that’s not financial suicide for a restaurant to do that, by all means do it smile

    • HBeer says:

      02:03pm | 25/07/11

      Most amusing that all the negative posters here so clearly entered the world as fully grown adults.

      Perhaps time for a few of them to read “Where Did I Come From”?

    • Tim says:

      02:20pm | 25/07/11

      No,
      we just weren’t little shits when we were kids.
      And if we were naughty in public, we got smacked.
      The attitude of some parents these days that their little Jayden, Brayden or Mercedes are free spirits who can’t be caged by discipline is what annoys.

    • Martin says:

      03:26pm | 25/07/11

      I’m sorry HBeer you have completely missed the point. Not everyone has kids, not everyone wants to have kids. I believe it is only fair to expect when paying extra money for an up market dining experience that it is not ruined by external factors forced on you by other patrons. I bet you would be the first to whinge if someone was smoking near you or being loud and offensive, but then think nothing of it when your brat runs riot through the place making a nuisance of themselves. The breeders are a rule unto themselves aren’t they.

    • Chris L says:

      03:38pm | 25/07/11

      It would seem more likely that those people’s parents showed enough responsibility to ensure the posters knew how to act in public as children. I know mine did.

      Now parents seem to leave the parenting to the television.

    • Anne71 says:

      08:20am | 26/07/11

      HBeer, no, we did NOT enter the world as fully grown adults. We did, however, have parents that actually took the time and trouble to teach us manners and how to conduct ourselves in public.

    • Ethel Sidebottom says:

      02:17pm | 25/07/11

      I am the mother of a couple of reasonably well trained little boys. They have both been taken out to eat in restaurants since they were born. Therefore they both know how to behave in public. (We also take amusements when we know we will be longer than their tolerance levels - angry birds, anyone?) We have taken them to cafes, pubs and the occasional five star restaurant (at lunch time, and first checking to see if it was ok) and have not had any issue with them, their behaviour and annoying other patrons. That is not acceptable to us at all.

      However, I think the main problem is summed up with the “WE ALL DECIDED…” that means there were more than two or three little kids let loose together. Lord Of The Flies is not a work of fiction, small children in packs are only one minute away from anarchy, and the best behaved and most pleasant child will turn on you in an instant if they’re in a pack.

      Ease into it next time - one couple at a time, or go somewhere with a playground!

    • John Smythe says:

      02:26pm | 25/07/11

      dunno…I thought it was an amusing piece. Much better than YAFAACTA

    • Jane says:

      02:29pm | 25/07/11

      Lets make a distinction here. I don’t think anyone is saying children are not welcome at ALL restaurants. They seem to be talking specifically fine dining, or similar. If I go to a Sizzler, or the little local italian/chinese/thai etc around the corner, I expect to see children with their families. Its just a night out, nothing special. But if I go to a high-end restaurant paying over the top prices where the majority of diners are couples and the ambiance is quiet and refined, then I don’t want that spoiled by a screaming baby or a toddler running loose. And if you can afford to go to an expensive restaurant then I’m pretty sure you can afford to get a babysitter - don’t you want a night off occasionally too?

      I would also say that if you know that your child won’t still still at a table for the duration of dinner, then you shouldn’t take them with you regardless of their age. Again, I’m just talking high-end restaurant here. A couple of other points:
      1. buffets have serving spoons available - don’t let you child use their fingers! Or better still, serve them yourself.
      2. a treat should be given when a child is being good, not as a bribe to stop them being bad.
      3. if you child is crying/screaming unstoppably, remove them from the area until they have calmed down.
      4. Why would you want to take a small child or baby to a pub? You think that is a good atmosphere for them, show them early how cool drunks look (not), or have to put up with being ostracised into the garden with the smokers? There’s enough coffee shops & cafes that sell acohol you could go to instead.

    • ibast says:

      03:32pm | 25/07/11

      “And if you can afford to go to an expensive restaurant then I’m pretty sure you can afford to get a babysitter - don’t you want a night off occasionally too?”

      Ever thought that I might want to take my daughter to a fine dining restaurant occasionally?

      I do agree, however, that you shouldn’t be taking kids that can’t keep still or keep it down to a decent restaurant.  I wouldn’t take my son, for example, because he has no attention span, doesn’t eat his dinner and wont sit at the table for more than a few minutes.

      I shouldn’t, however, be told my child can’t eat at a restaurant when I’ve made the judgement call that their behavior will be appropriate to the ambiance of the establishment, just because other parent haven’t made the correct judgment in the past.

      Kids are part of the family and don’t deserve to be palmed off to someone else just because they are inconvenient.

    • Jane says:

      04:07pm | 25/07/11

      Ibast
      Unless your daughter is a screaming baby or a toddler running loose (which are the examples I used), then I didn’t say you couldn’t take your child. If your child can appreciate the food, can behave herself, then she’s not a problem. I also bet your daughter is older than 10, since most children wouldn’t give a rats about fine dining before then. Most kids (including mine) think a burger thats not wrapped up is haute cuisine.

    • gold says:

      03:47pm | 25/07/11

      seems the only place you can go now and be an adult among other adults is the strip club. unfortunately with so many parents now pushing the little ones into pole dancing, even they are not safe. Whats left?

    • gold says:

      03:48pm | 25/07/11

      seems the only place you can go now and be an adult among other adults is the strip club. unfortunately with so many parents now pushing the little ones into pole dancing, even they are not safe. Whats left?

    • echo says:

      04:01pm | 25/07/11

      children should be seen and not heard. Truer words have never been spoken. We adults are losing places that were just for us, restaurants, cafes, pubs, strip clubs etc. Why do parents feel the need to parade their little ‘darlings’ to places where adults go to get away from them and then complain when we give them a filthy look if their kid starts throwing food around a nice restaurant? There are specific places you can take kids that are set up for them. Parents want to go to an adult establishment then get a babysitter, can’t afford a babysitter and grandma or aunty is not available? Don’t go. Simple

    • Geoff says:

      04:19pm | 25/07/11

      I have owned restaurants for over 20 years and have had many a noisy out of control child ruin the evening for others and cost me money in lost sales and bad word of mouth. Banning kids under 6 is one way, but there is another, and better way. Over the last 12 months we have developed the Quiet Kids Restaurant Survival Kit. Aimed primarily at restaurant, cafe and tavern owners and managers it is guaranteed to keep little Johnny quiet and the other guests happy. It consists of a re-sealable bag with a bespoke 8 page colouring book, 8 coloured crayons and a stick-on tattoo of dinasours or butterflies. The kids and their parents love it and they get to take it home. Apart from cleaning up the odd crushed crayon on the floor - a minor inconvenience compared with cranky grumbling diners stalking out swearing, not so inaudibly, about “bloody kids” - they work a treat. At only $2 each they are a bargain and not a bad idea for parents to have in their bag too when they go to a restaurant.

    • Duchess says:

      04:49pm | 25/07/11

      Damn right fine dining should be child free, take them to McDonalds where they belong and let the rest of us eat in peace. Kids do not belong in pubs either.

    • nick says:

      06:19pm | 14/12/11

      Damn right!!

    • Peter Thornton says:

      06:17pm | 25/07/11

      God what a lolfest this turned out to be. Fine dining and children, from any lateral perspective, do not mix. Do children appreciate fine dining? Most likely not and therefore soon become very bored and consequently ruin everyone else’s night by their endless stream of selfish complaints. I can think of several other types of eateries that welcome children. Of these one is almost fine dining, although anyone who actually took children to dine would probably assume it’s definitely fine dining and that kids are more than welcome. Such is the behaviour of the proletariat.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      06:55pm | 25/07/11

      This article attempts the following:

      1)  There are sometimes unavoidable times of unpleasantness, therefore you will sit there and like it while I inflict an avoidable unpleasantness on you.

      2)  You will sit there and not say boo, no matter how disgusting/noisy etc..my children are being, so that they learn “tolerance” (note that in this sentence, tolerance appears to mean letting people do whatever the hell they want with no repercussions).

      3)  Because some adults are unpleasant, all kids have the right to be and no one can tell them to behave.

      Excellent.  Perhaps consider that since you’ve had a kid, you don’t get to play with the adults any more.  You made the choice to spend the next eighteen years of your life with children.  Apparently you thought it would be worth it, so, go and enjoy it and leave we “miserable, unloved” people without children to our apparently empty existences.

      Cheers.

    • Chris L says:

      07:25pm | 25/07/11

      You can’t blame them for hoping complete strangers will do some impromptu babysitting for them while they relax can you Tim?

    • Steve says:

      07:27pm | 25/07/11

      My wife and I love going out for dinner and have been taking our 2 boys with us since babies.

      Whilst they are now 13 and 8 and would be able to behave I do draw the line at fine dining. They are aware that there are “adult only” restraunts and this is when the baby sitter is appropriate.

      For those in a place without extended family and no confidence in baby sitters then I believe you should leave the fine dining experience until the kids are old enough to leave at home by themselves.

    • Ruby says:

      08:47am | 27/07/11

      It’s their restaurant, they should be able to ban children if they want. People with children don’t have a RIGHT to enter restaurants, especially when they are going to ruin the experience for everyone else. Why should everyone else suffer because you chose to spit out offspring? Your choice, you should be the one who has to suffer (by not being able to go out to some restaurants), not everyone else.

    • Picky Nicky says:

      03:35pm | 08/09/11

      I’m a cranky bitch and I don’t like anyone of any age who is rude, loud or annoying in public. Children today annoy me more than ever because they “are such special little people” and their parents seem to have lost the knack of disciplining them. Don’t worry parents, I’ve worked out my own way to deal with it. I don’t ‘tut tut’ you and I don’t spank them. When one of your rowdy little monsters careens into my space, I simply lean down, bare my teeth and hiss like a very angry cat. It works on two levels. First, it is pure comedy gold: every time the child has stopped in its tracks and nearly wet itself. Second, it is actually effective. Without fail, the child immediately calms down and keeps a very wary eye on me. Who cares if they are scarred for life? At least they are quiet.

    • nick says:

      06:16pm | 14/12/11

      Sorry mate once you have kids you have forfeited your right to going out and having a dood time. Ypour choice was made when you decided to fall pregnant. Take responsibility and stay home home and look after the children that you wanted and stop ruining it for everybody else.

 

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