Shameful silence on the Afghanistan front

acotrel says:

08:01am | 19/08/10

As Wee Georgie Pell said -  ‘Islam is the communism of the 21st century’, So we can look forward to years of struggle fuelled by religous paranoia?

Barry says:

10:31am | 19/08/10

@acotrel Although currently in Australia, it can definitely look like paranoia, there are good reasons for why people are concerned about extremist Islamists.  Do some research and see how many Islamic terrorist organizations there are whose main goal is to overthrow current government and set up Islamic states.  Australia may be relatively safe from this, but as a Western nation which signifies wealth, and a supporter of America who supports Israel, the threat of attack is not that far-fetched, although the magnitude of the threat is relatively small.  Any support of Israel can be seen my extremists as justification for attack.

Amanda says:

09:46pm | 19/08/10

What a crock of shit. We invaded sovereign nations. We deserve to be punished. Lets say China decided we were a threat because of our WMD’s and decided to invade us. Would you like that? We are just bullies hanging of the yanks coat tails and do not have the guts to make a stand on our own. This country is pathetic.

Soldier says:

08:20am | 20/08/10

Well said.

What makes the reporter so qualified to take such a slanted view on the subject?

How about people ask the troops wether they think its time to leave since they have the experience on the ground rather then left wing arm chair generals making all sorts of unfounded declarations.

Andrew says:

11:40am | 19/08/10

Very true. Seem that there is a fair bit of fudging of the figures, without reference to sources. All the usual stuff that legitimises a point of view.

I think the big thing that is missing is the fact that it does not matter what ‘organisation’ or ‘fundamentalist’ group is oppressing the Afghani people, as a nation we are there now, and there is a significant moral obligation to improve the standards of living and attempt to restore some relitive calm to the nation.

The Badger says:

09:20am | 19/08/10

“we have to stop the terrorists”

“needless deaths of our troops”

These two phrases in your last sentence seem to stack up.

I don’t know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

Albert Einstein

Michael K says:

09:27am | 19/08/10

You’re right, Stewart! I’m happy to pull our troops out of Afghanistan and return the Taliban-led theocracy to power. After all, those innocent Afghani civilians do not need to be protected from reprisal attacks. Afghani women can go back to being subjugated as well, of course.

Those who campaign to end the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have narrow-minded agendas. If they really cared for peace then they would fight for peace the world-over rather than just peace for Western civilisation and its professional warriors. It’s time for them to re-evaluate their moral priorities.

Dan says:

05:14am | 20/08/10

Michael, you do realise that the war in Afghanistan has nothing to do with morality? We didn’t go to war in Afghanistan because of human rights abuses and because of the Taliban.

As for the war in Iraq, do you really think it was launched because of Saddam’s abuses?

Don’t pretend that you have higher moral priotities than those who oppose the two wars (or who oppose Iraq, and believe that we’ve served our purpose in Afghanistan). You don’t. Additionally, if you have such a wide-ranging agenda, would you be prepared to go to war against North Korea or Burma, or another country which oppresses their people? Or are you just a hypocrite?

Personally, I completely oppose the war in Iraq; and with Afghanistan (a war, started for non-moral reasons, which I supported), I think that we have served our purpose but at the same time I think we need to clean up our mess. However don’t put the moral superiority card. It’s nonsence.

Leto says:

10:37am | 19/08/10

Mercenaries fight for money…

TheRealDave says:

12:40pm | 19/08/10

Cowards hide behind the security they provide and denigrate them anonymously for it

Faceless man says:

08:24pm | 19/08/10

Spot on biteme, the one group that never has their views on Afghanistan published seems to be the soldiers themselves. Let them stay in the ghan, both to help fix the hopeless situation that exists there, and actually use their skills as soldiers, instead of eating and sleeping in the barracks for thirty years like they did between Vietnam and Timor.

Tiffany says:

11:06am | 20/08/10

Sorry, but going to war and killing people for money and experience sounded so wrong!!! Is this meant in jest?

TimB says:

09:48am | 19/08/10

“Yes everyone, the Taliban surely have feelings too when their friends and families are killed by our depleted uranium bombs and weapons of mass destruction.”

Uh what? I must have missed where we were using nuclear weapons in Afghanistan. I’m sure you’ll point me to the relevant news story that shows this.

The rest of your post is equally devoid of reason.

JJ of SC says:

10:40am | 19/08/10

Your grasp of power and politics between nations astounds me.

Target says:

10:53am | 19/08/10

Depleted Uranium Munitions (DUM) aren’t placed in bombs, their used in light to heavy artillery to penetrate hard targets like tanks because Uranium is denser than steel.  They are not, as suggested, used against soft targets like people.  Besides which the US have ramped back use of them due to the contamination that resulted in Iraq from their heavy use there.  Advances in explosives and multi-role projectiles will make their use obsolete.

Moby says:

01:36pm | 19/08/10

@ Youdy Beaudy : Would you like to expand on this….....“We also have to see that according to a law passed by the Howard Regime some yeas ago and supported by Beasley that our Soldiers can now shoot down the Australian Population for Civil Disobedience.”  With something that is independantly credible, not unverifiable statements.

Ray Graham says:

10:42am | 19/08/10

YZ your comment is appalling. The real issue here is that `8 out of 18 deaths are male. This mirrors our social attitude towards men and women. and cries for equality.

Something for you to ponder on YZ. At the end of the day when we do withdraw, will the deaths of these men make any differenceor amount to anything? Sacrifices to political expedience. Men! Well that’s OK.

Ray says:

11:08am | 19/08/10

Sorry typo. 18 out of 18 men

YZ says:

11:19am | 19/08/10

but going by your own figures, out of 18 if 8 were male ....what’s left…...damn what’s the other…....ah female number 10, now whats higher…....8 or 10….....I have no problem if women want to go and fight and die, more power to them really, but a lot of the problem is the men’s attitude in battle, I have spoken to a number of men that have been over there and they themselves are not comfortable with the idea of women in the front line, because they would be always focussed on making sure they’re ok to see what’s going on around them.

now I have no idea what your last paragraph is actually supposed to say so I will ignore it completely

YZ says:

11:48am | 19/08/10

@Ray - that makes more sense, I was wondering how the women could get killed when they don’t really serve on the front line, although as I understand it they do drive convoys and can be killed by an iud doing that…......oh well, I have no problem men and women serving their country in the front line

Ray says:

11:59am | 19/08/10

YZ if you don’t understand my last paragraph read it slowly. I apologise for assuming your basic comprehension skills.

In monosyllabic terms, what I am saying is that being in Afghanistan is a politcal presence for which our men are being killed. and that men being killed goes with the territory of our culture, that men are expendable. Dumbed down for your benefit.

Our troops are NOT trained to fight persee. They are trained to defend our country. Gladiators are trained to fight (usually for other people).

NEFFA says:

12:07pm | 19/08/10

awwww, boo hoo hoo, poor Ray.

Lets get something straigh here Ray, Women have requested to be on the front line, and were knocked back. by MEN. That’s right, women are not allowed to serve on the frontline, and it is MEN that say they cannot.

If you feel the need to know what women go through, lets talk about life for the women of Afghanistan under the Taliban. Forced to live under a burqa, no access to education, one in eight women die in childbirth because they have no access to healthcare (its seen as shameful for a woman to see a male doctor, but because women dont have the right to an education, there are no female doctors) no right to work, really no right to leave the home. add to that the stonings and random beatings in the streets if the mullahs dont like the look of them. and life is hell.

If our soldiers make life better for even one of these women, shame on you for saying all their hard work comes to nothing.

I understand that modern life is making you feel emasculated Ray, but maybe you should poor your scorn into doing something productive, go to:
http://www.sawa-australia.org/about.html
and change a life.

Ray says:

12:09pm | 19/08/10

Where’s the 10 come from? Your IQ or are you deluded enough to put yourself in the Bo Derek class. Could be both. Bottom line is don’t flippantly dismiss the deaths of young MEN and rave on about the cause being ‘makeup’ and ‘burquas’. Life is worth more than that..

YZ says:

12:57pm | 19/08/10

@Ray - life is worth more than that eh? soldiers are paid to fight, what would you have them do instead? if you don’t want to die in war then don’t join the military. more people have died on our roads in the last year than in the war since we joined, what are you doing to stop the road deaths that take MEN and WOMEN.

I say let women fight in the front line, but as Neffa said the men in charge wont let them, now maybe it’s because of polite society not liking the idea but I don’t see you rallying with the cause.

now no need to call me names, you ran your words together and I was stuck trying to work out what the hell a differenceor was.

soldiers are paid to go where they are told and fight/defend who they are told. simple. don’t like it? petition the military to get women on the front line for 3 days in every month they will be a force to be reckoned with.

Ray says:

01:05pm | 19/08/10

Well NEFFA what woke you from your man hating coma. For a start your last para, ‘poor’ is spelled ‘pour’. Don’t worry about the poor old Ray ‘boo hoo hoo’ either. Stating the truth usually is a bit difficult for feminists to confront. I don’t need any Boo Hoo because men usually get on with it and don’t need or wish to claim ‘victim’. It is why despite education bias men still rise to the top in our society. Not by the feminist doctrine discrimination that you espouse.

With females in the front line despite spin by the likes of yourself, women are not there because the front line is only as strong as your weakest link. The weak link compromises the lives of the others. PC denies the military heirachy to declare this. An analogy here is that nearly all Olympic timed events women are around 10% behind men or aka Kathy Freeman 40m behind in a 400m race.

Furthermore your examples of the treatment of women are merely media driven folklore which you have not ecperienced but readily fasten onto. The muslim women I meet are respectful of their beliefs and something foreign to Australian women respectful to their men folk.

No one has had the temerity to deny that we practice the reverse in education, by culpably educating our girls better than boys. Fix our own backyard first.

YZ says:

01:17pm | 19/08/10

Wow Ray - you have serious issues, more than Eric against women, have you tried getting help?

Ray says:

01:21pm | 19/08/10

3 days a month NZ!That will have the Afghanis terrified.

Meanwhile as I said our military is not trained to ‘fight’ persee. They are trained to defend OUR country. Minor differentiation wasted on zealots. And I repeat why would you want women on the frontline when the frontline is only as strong as the weakest link. PC prevents the Military heirachy from saying this. But the weak link compromises the lives of the others on the front line. You disdainful disrespect to the men who sacrifice their lives is dispicable.

Reminds me of a female Military General referring to the ‘men and women’ on the beaches of Gallipoli. Similar disrespect in the name of PC expediency.

In my final saying on this matter I convey my absolute respect to those men who have paid the ultimate cost in Afghanistan. Their presence is above your rantings on perceived Afghanistan female issues, which are NOT the purpose of our military presence.

You also no doubt miss the significance of the 102,000 deaths of men in the Great Wars. I think about 400 women total died while in that military service

YZ says:

01:41pm | 19/08/10

Yeah Ray - this article is about the Afghanistan skirmish. they are trained to defend our country at home and abroad and I think Afghanistan qualifies.

Back in the first and ssecon world war this was before feminism so you can’t blame that, it’s all people’s perspectives.  And who’s to say women would be a weak link? have you dealt much with them 3 days out of every month? just tell them the enemy has the chocolate and it will be over in no time. Women are more cold and calculating than men. men will throw a punch over an insult, women plan and seek sweet, sweet revenge. just because you don’t see women as being able to provide much of anything, are you married? have a daughter? what do they think of these beliefs you have? or are you alone and bitter? what happen Ray? your girl send you a ‘Dear John’ letter while you were in Vietnam and marry a guy that stayed home?

Ray says:

05:20pm | 19/08/10

YZ.  I’m Married 36years and counting (teh he). Daughter 33, son 32. Both flying successes.

As for the ‘Dear John’ letters. I was at the higher end of the scale on success with women. Who was I to deny their physical needs which they cast upon me with rampant enthusiasm. Despite my moral resistence I would usually succumb. I apologise for this deficiency in my character.

George S Patton says:

11:01am | 19/08/10

There you go again, carrying on about nonexistent “cluster bombs with depleted uranium”. If you can’t even get basic facts right, you have no credibility.

TimB says:

11:16am | 19/08/10

Youdy, please check your facts before posting. Then you won’t look ridiculous.

Again, nuclear weapons are not being used in Afghanistan. Stop making things up.

New Zealand is not “minding it’s own business”, they have troops over there as I type this. So do many other nations. It’s not all “American imperialism” as you believe.

Please stop insulting people because they disagree with your imagination.

Phill says:

01:17pm | 19/08/10

Youdy, my post was directed at the article not at you but if the shoe fits…

Your rant is full of no-one cares about us so stuff them attitude.  Like i said, very un-Australian.  If you saw the woman across the street was being beaten by her husband, would you do anything or would it be none of your business?  How about if you saw the house down the road was being broken into?  Some of us have a human side and actually care about helping others.

You mention the death toll to civilians, this pales compared to the death toll of the Afghani’s inflicted by their own failed government.  I suggest you get off your soap box and check the facts.

Maybe you should stay home and never leave your house.  That way you will never have to interact with the world that you obviously don’t care about.

Andrew says:

03:30pm | 19/08/10

What about the 100,000 of thousands killed by saddam and who would be dying if he or his sons were still in power. What about the atrocities carrie out by the Taliban, get off your high horse, its funny that when people in these countries kill each other all you people couldn’t care less, I guess when ther killing each other it doesnt really matter for they dont know any better. Have you bothered to ask the iraq’s wether they prefer things with or without saddam. Why is it we hardly ever see iraq’s or ex iraq citizen protesting about whats going on, only people that sit back 1000’s of miles away and think they know whats best and know all the answers.

Ray Graham says:

11:06am | 19/08/10

Well stone the crows Susan. You should read my comment about 18 of the 18 deaths being male. What fighting over feminist mantra like make up and burquas. As for stoning they do worse to men for ‘crimes’ ie removing limbs, stoning etc.

As for education WE choose to educate our girls better than boys and wallow in our conceited success in doing precisely that.

There is no justification for being in Afghanistan other than homophobia to impart our cultural beliefs on a culture far far older and established than ours. Regardless of whether we agree with that culture.

If this is to do with feminist issues as per your drift send the feminists to defend your ideals. You’ve already infilktrated our society by stealth to its own detriment

NEFFA says:

01:10pm | 19/08/10

Sorry Ray, but how is having a limb removed worse than being stoned to death?

I think maybe you should join the Army Ray and let some real men teach you how to be a man. sitting around feeling sorry for your self seems to have you dangerously close to morphing into a hyper-sensitive, hormonal woman.

TheRealDave says:

01:53pm | 19/08/10

@Ray homophobia?!!?

What has ‘homophobia’ got to do with waging war? You do know our Afhgan allies are into that kind of thing - not that there’s anything wrong with that of course…..

Ray says:

04:36pm | 19/08/10

Dave homophobic in dictionary and layman’s terms means a person who wants others to be the same as them.
Not sure that YZ can grasp that, but I’m counting on you.

Ray says:

04:44pm | 19/08/10

NEFFA the men are stoned as well. Sounds like you are stoned too. Please get a grip. Didn’t read did you NEFFA? I said I was in Vietnam while your gender escaped conscription. Furthermore, I doubt you would know a real man as I know their radar would pick you up as a no go zone. Now you’ve already acknowledged that on a previous blog.

YZ says:

05:27pm | 19/08/10

You know Ray there is no need for name calling or assuming since I have a different opinion than you that I can’t grasp basic language, in today’s language homophobic is fear of homosexuals. i am not the only one who thought that

NEFFA says:

06:03pm | 19/08/10

@ray - yeah? come over here and say that!

YZ says:

11:24am | 19/08/10

I agree, you can’t force a nation to evolve or think like you do, it needs to come from the people, they need to stand up and say no more, which is why I have issues with the young men assylum seekers, if it’s so bad stay and fight, stand up for what you believe in, if you leave nothing will change, the people in Afghanistah need to stand up and change things themselves, but I do still support us being there as we were asked by the UN and have to back up our allies

Ray says:

11:49am | 19/08/10

YZ you have issues with the young men not staying and fighting the cause! Why not the women? You are a disgraceful person who sees men, despite whatever creed, as being dispensible. If its your cause you fight it. Don’t sit on the hill sending the male cavalry in to fight your battles.

Vacuous female with nothing but condescending principles that sees men as expendable. Let the Afghanis self destruct. Whatever we do wont matter to conversion to your homophobic alliance to feminist ideals.

If you wonder why I have this strong view I was subject to conscription that women weren’t, went to Vietnam and was similarly devalued on my return. That while our discriminated against 52% stayed in comfort of their own conceit.

There you go again hoping to ‘evolve’ another culture on your narrow beliefs. Sounds like Dr Livingstone going to Africa to make the natives Christian.

YZ says:

01:06pm | 19/08/10

@Ray - are sayoing that only having men on the frontline will lead to homosexuality? if so I really don’t see it. there is no need to call me names, if you have an issue with society then friggen change their beliefs.

How am I wanting to change these people to my ideas? I say leave them alone, let them sink or swim on their own merit. hey if the women really want to fight then right on, go for it, let them in the front line. I do not see life as expendable but they are volunteers and paid to do a job. we haven’t had conscription since your war for very good reason. It wasn’t feminism that stopped women from fighting, it’s the public both men and women that didn’t want their daughters coming home in body bags.

how is losing a limb worse than being stoned to death? they’re still alive just shorter.

I wasn’t alive for the Vietnam war but again I do believe we had to go because America went, we have to follow our allies.

I wouldn’t mind fighting and going in the front line but I am not allowed to join the military, I have the UTMOST respect for anyone who serves their country.

take your rant against feminists to the people and the government and see how far you get. I am not a feminist, I have never been one

Ray says:

01:59pm | 19/08/10

YZ, Homosexuality! where did that come from in trhis ‘discussion’? You are allowed to join the military. Don’t want their daughters coming home in a body bag? Don’t want my son coming home in one either.

You don’t understand. America didn’t ‘went’ or go to Vietnam. They were the cause of Vietnam. We followed like sheep and didn’t need to go.

Also in Afghanistan men are de limbed, stoned, have their eyes poked out (so I am told) and so do women.

The telling fact is our answer to our own education system that unashamedly favours women, to our celebration. Life is not a handicap race and boys deserve the same opportunities. Issues such as this need to be fixed at home before we convey our bigotry about other cultures to the world stage.

Also YZ my time in the 60s was when men and women had respect for each other not the disdain generated at the behest of feminists, to which most women subscribe whether being feminist or not. I sincerely hope you are in the minority. Men are wonderful creatures subject to their inherint ideals which have been systematically dismantled aand discredited by you know whom. But have made this country mostly great. I can assure you we, or I, will not desert those ideals.

YZ says:

02:22pm | 19/08/10

@Ray - if you’re an example of these ‘wonderful’ men I will pass thanks.

and the homosexual comes from your comment

“There is no justification for being in Afghanistan other than homophobia to impart our cultural beliefs”

what else are we meant to think.

yes in the 60’s you had more respect, still didn’t let women fight or even serve did ya?

I am NOT allowed to join the military, I have a medical condition that they don’t want there.

and I thought above you were not going to talk about this topic anymore

“In my final saying on this matter I convey my absolute respect to those men who have paid the ultimate cost in Afghanistan”

Ray’s a liar, Ray’s a liar.

Take on the education system then and seriously see a shrink coz damn! you have issues, I certainly would not like to see your son’s attitude to women with this ranting.

Ray says:

04:26pm | 19/08/10

YZ look up what homophobia means before shooting from the hip. Biased education has not helped you.

I agree you have a medical condition.

YZ says:

05:39pm | 19/08/10

@ Ray -

Thesaurus - Adj. 1. homophobic - prejudiced against homosexual people

Dictionary - ho·mo·pho·bi·a (hm-fb-)
n.
1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

Don’t know how old your dictionary is mate but you might want to get an updated one that wasn’t used 60 years ago, a lot of fun new words and terms

And my medical condition is asthma, nothing mental, maybe you should be checked.

what do your wife and daughter think of these women hating ideas? did you protest that women couldn’t fight in the Vietnam War?

For as long as there has been war it is the socially accepted stance that the men fight and women stay home and tend the hearth, from back in the days of knights and chivalry and from then on it has been the accepted practise, don’t blame me for perpetuating this idea and don’t call me feminist for it, I hate feminists, they have ruined chivalry and gentlemanly behaviour.

men start the wars, they should be the ones who end it. it would be nice if wars could be fought by the assholes that started it, but that’s in a perfect world.

Want to change things? petition the government, petition the military leaders. when you went to war would have like your wife there beside you? maybe taking a bullet? we don’t have conscription anymore so the odds of you son being dragged into are slim to none unless he signs up, would you want your daughter on the front line if she decided she wanted to fight for her country?

Ray says:

01:35pm | 19/08/10

Barbara, a small point on your first sentence. The 1600 are dead so hard to make an outcry. You make a silly analogy

YZ says:

01:26pm | 19/08/10

Paul - we are THERE because we were told to go from the UN and America our allies, the government will not do anything until America does.

Michael K says:

01:28pm | 19/08/10

To answer those questions I would recommend you take a proactive approach to educating yourself. Read some journal and news articles on the war in Afghanistan and consult your local member.

Ray says:

01:41pm | 19/08/10

YZ, we don’t have to go. Why are you so enthused about men losing their lives. The UN is not an ‘ally’. It is a composite.
The US? Well best leave that alone. They invaded Iraq for revenge on Osama Bin Ladin under the premise of WMD. Bin Ladin was not there nor aligned.

YZ says:

01:44pm | 19/08/10

Ray - what I said was that we were asked by the UN and America are our allies and as they went in we went in. Why don’t you learn to read clearly or should I dumb down for you? The rules are clear you back up your friends, it doesn’t matter if it was because of a bullshit reason you still go in or when you get attacked that friend says, well you didn’t help us so, sorry you’re on your own. and America would be that vindictive.

TheRealDave says:

02:04pm | 19/08/10

Actually YZ - in regards to Afghanistan, NATO is running that under UN directives. We aren’t a part of NATO….we invited ourselves….after the US gave us a call and Asked us if we wanted to tag along.

YZ says:

02:32pm | 19/08/10

@ Real Dave - Under UN directives….hmmm…UN still involved, and do you really think when America asked if we wanted to tag alone they would have been OK if we had said no? it’s like when your boss asks you to do something that’s not in your job description but still harmless, like get his dry cleaning on your lunch break, you can’t really say no to that otherwise it gets logged and come pay review well guess what, you’re not willing to go above and beyond.

Ray says:

04:18pm | 19/08/10

YZ I quote from you ‘told to go by the UN and America our allies’. Plural means both. If you only referred to America our ally that would be different. I am now dumbed down to your level. Don’t like it though. Not part of my CV. Hope I’m not going too fast for you.

B—-shit baffles brains. But don’t feel baffled as you fail the qualifying criteria. An education where girls are supposed to be brighter. The proof is in the pudding

Elizabeth says:

09:17am | 20/08/10

Paul, I might not be a university highly educated person, but in my opinion we have no choice in this war. If we do not support the American forces we leave ourselves open and if we were to ever need military support to stop another country invading us we would be on our own…

YZ says:

03:41pm | 19/08/10

exactly don’t interfer! call the cops or whatever but don’t go over and intervene, more often than not it’s the woman that attacks and you don’t want more victims to clean up after. Any cop will tell you that. don’t confront anyone, as women we are told if we are being attacked to call ‘FIRE’ coz people will not come running to cries of ‘RAPE’

Phill says:

12:39pm | 20/08/10

That’s the difference Youd, I have and would interfere.  I have stopped blokes beating on women.  I have stopped on a deserted country road to help out at a car crash, and I have no qualms about risking injury to help others.  Like I said, to think otherwise is cowardly and selfish.
As for the police saying not to get involved, that is their job.  They also say speeding is not OK even if taking a loved one to hospital for a medical emergency.  Fireman say not to re-enter a burning house to help family members.  I know what i would do in both of those situations and damn the consequences.

stephen says:

09:29pm | 19/08/10

China’s navy is tiny. It’d take them at current defence spending, assuming the USA expenditure was frozen, 30 years of re-armament to threaten the West. Her last big naval prescence was in AD1430. Not much tradition there.(Its her influence with Burma and Nth. Korea that requires our attention).
As for Islamic terrorism ; it has the capacity to develop into a major problem if relatively small pockets of insurgence are not dealt with.
China doesn’t give a fig for such ‘localized’ trauma. Her concerns are all about herself.

James1 says:

10:48am | 20/08/10

Indeed stephen.  That event - even though it is 30 years in the future - is what we should be preparing for now.  China certainly is…

TimB says:

08:48pm | 19/08/10

Right. The people who use suicide bombing as a tactic and brought down the World Trade Centre were concerned about innocent deaths.

Take my advice. Hang your tinfoil hat up and lay off the conspiracy websites.