In the lead-up to the 2007 federal election, ALP leader Kevin Rudd staked the middle ground in education by advocating a conservative agenda, embracing a back-to-basics curriculum and a return to traditional subjects.

Thou shalt not ignore Christianity! Pic: AP

During her time as Education Minister Julia Gillard also defined herself as an education conservative and described the ALP’s national curriculum as exemplifying a return to academic standards and rigour.

In one speech Gillard described herself as “a passionate believer in the benefits of a rigorous study of traditional disciplines”, and in a second speech she boasted, “What we’re on about is making sure that the absolute basics of knowledge, absolute basics of education are taught right across the country.”

On replacing her as Minister for Education, Peter Garrett maintained the ALP line that education is a major priority and described the national curriculum as “world-class” and “vital to our goal of giving every child a great education”.

Has the ALP government delivered on its promise to develop a national curriculum that embraces the “traditional disciplines” and “the absolute basics of knowledge”? Based on the English, mathematics, history and science documents (dated December 8, 2010) the answer is “No”.

Instead of heralding a return to traditional learning, the proposed national curriculum represents a continuation of the type of substandard, politically correct approach to education that has bedevilled Australian schools over the last 30 to 40 years.

The more traditional approach to the curriculum, while acknowledging the importance of the learner and the fact that disciplines evolve over time, places subjects like history, mathematics, the sciences, the arts, music and languages and literature centre stage.

Matthew Arnold’s view that education should introduce students to the “best which has been thought and said” is often referred to in this context, as is Michael Oakeshott’s metaphor of education involving a conversation that is larger than the individual and that has been going on for hundreds of years.

This liberal view of education, while drawing on a range of cultures and traditions, is closely associated with the rise of Western civilisation and our Judeo-Christian heritage. In the same way that the nation’s legal and political systems and language and literature owe a great debt to and can only be understood in the context of this Western heritage, so to with education.

Instead of respecting and acknowledging this liberal view of education, the national curriculum gives primacy to three politically correct “cross-curriculum priorities” (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander history and cultures, Asia and Australia’s engagement with Asia, and sustainability) and seven “general capabilities” (including intercultural understanding, competence in information and communication technology, and critical and creative thinking).

Every subject in the national curriculum must incorporate the aforementioned perspectives and capabilities. As a result, the disciplines of knowledge are undervalued and distorted to make them conform to the ALP’s and the Left-intelligentsia’s preoccupation with Asia, indigenous Australians, and teaching so-called work-related generic skills.

Instead of Asia and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture, why not define the curriculum in terms of Australia’s Western heritage and Judeo-Christian tradition?

In relation to the seven capabilities (most of which are subject-specific and impossible to teach as abstracted skills) the case can also be put that it is more important that students commit themselves to the qualities and dispositions associated with a liberal education, such as civility, morality, objectivity, compassion, kindness, humility, creativity and truth-telling.

The history curriculum provides a clear example of this unwillingness to acknowledge the grand narrative associated with the rise of Western civilisation and the importance of Christianity. In one section the document asks students to act with “moral integrity” and to “work for the common good” but the curriculum writers refuse to acknowledge that such ethical values are culturally specific and can only be understood in Australia in the context of the Western tradition.

In an early draft of the history curriculum, while “Christian” appeared once, there was no mention of Christianity. While the most recent document refers to Christianity a number of times (and once to the Catholic Church) the focus is very much on diversity, difference and cultural relativism. When Christianity is mentioned it is usually in the context of other religions (Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Islam) and there is no attempt to detail the historical and cultural significance of Christianity.

When studying ancient Rome, for example, students are asked to consider the rise of the Roman empire and the spread of religious beliefs, but there is no mention of Christianity. In the study of Medieval Europe, Christianity is included, but the stated aims, that students should learn about “the dominance of the Catholic Church and the role of significant individuals such as Charlemagne”, “the Church’s power in terms of wealth and labour” and “the nature and power of the Church in this period”, indicate that students will be left with a less than favourable impression.

The decision by the curriculum writers to ignore the terms BC (Before Christ) and AD (Anno Domini) in favour of the politically correct alternatives, BCE (Before the Common Era), BP (Before Present) and CE (Common Era) further illustrates the extent to which Christianity is ignored and undervalued.

It should be noted that the most recent history document represents a slight improvement on earlier drafts. While the draft dated March 2010 made no mention of the Magna Carta, the Westminster system of government and concepts like the separation of powers, the most recent edition does when stating that Year 6 children should learn about “the Westminster system”, “constitutional monarchy” and “federalism”.

Unfortunately, though, instead of representing a balanced approach by recognising the debt Australia owes to its Anglo-Celtic heritage, it is clear that the curriculum writers are still committed to a view of history that uncritically promotes diversity and difference (code for multiculturalism) and that presents Australia as a nation of tribes.

The document’s treatment of migration provides a good example of this bias. Even though migration to Australia since the First Fleet has been primarily Anglo-Celtic and European in origin, teachers are told that students must be taught about “the long history of migration to Australia by people from Asia and appreciate the contributions made over time by Asian Australians to the development of Australia’s culture and society”.

Instead of praising the fact that Australia has welcomed so many immigrants from often hostile foreign shores and allowed them to live in peace and prosperity, the history document, when asking students to study migration, refers to “internment camps”, “assimilation policies” and “mandatory detention”.

Another example relates to slavery, where the history document is happy to refer to slavery during the Roman empire and to the European trans-Atlantic slave trade but, no mention is made of slavery under Islam. It is also no surprise that, when dealing with ideas and movements during the period 1750–1918, Year 9 students are only expected to study “progressive” ideas, with no mention of classical liberal philosophy or the type of conservative ideas associated with Edmund Burke.

The above is an extract from an essay in the March edition of Quadrant evaluating Australia’s proposed national curriculum.

478 comments

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    • acotrel says:

      05:09am | 15/03/11

      The morals which are the obsession of christians, are a subset of ethics, a discipline which should be taught in schools.  Rationality must prevail in all things or we lapse into delusion.

    • Mirror says:

      06:00am | 15/03/11

      Is the belief that we will lapse into delusion, rational?

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      10:06am | 15/03/11

      Acrotel :  Your view of what constitutes delusion is delusional .  Rationality certainly will prevail and it includes Christianity and an individuals faith .  Discipline and ethics are ingredients depending one on the other .  The basis of Christ’s teachings is the combination of love , discipline , ethics , and rationality . 
      The practice of that combination - the basis of Christ’s teachings - is precisely why Christians have faith.

    • sproket says:

      10:16am | 15/03/11

      Sorry to pop your bubble Wayne, but billions of Muslims, Hindus, Greek pantheists, Odin-worshippers, devotees of Ra the Sun God, pagans, wiccans and Chulhu-cultists the like have managed to display as much faith in their deity as you in yours. So, it appears the magic unique Jesus formula is not the cosmological equivalent of the Colonels seven secret herbs and spices as you would have us believe.

      pop.

    • Jugg says:

      10:32am | 15/03/11

      Make you feel bigger sproket?

      Seriously, what is it with the comments here attacking people for what they believe in?

    • mike j says:

      10:35am | 15/03/11

      Schools exist for the teaching of facts. If I wouldn’t want them teaching Harry Potter as historical fact, why would I want them teaching /other/ unverifiable folk tales about fictional wizards who save the universe? If you want to indoctrinate your children with dogma and misinformation, take them to church in your own time. In the context of human history, orthodox religion is nothing but social engineering, so don’t expect the state to dress up your mind control power play as legitimate learning.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:40am | 15/03/11

      I knew this was going to be a religious debate rather than a debate on education from the moment I saw the headline.

      Forget that Australian Education is a farce compared to some of our major trading partners like China whose school day starts at 6:50am and runs through to 10:00pm 6 days / week and with all students being educated in every subject including music, art, dance English and Chinese culture.

      Forget that our teachers are unable to get a student to pick up a piece of paper off the ground let alone educate them because the PC crowd has given the student more power than the educator.

      Forget that if I get my 19 year old daughter to write something it’s in a language that with careful concentration I can decipher what she might be saying.

      No instead let’s focus on religion hijack the whole discussion so that nothing credible comes from it.

      To Christians, Atheists and any other group of theology get your heads out of your ass and let’s start talking about the real problem this country faces.

      <span style=“text-decoration: underline;”>Our children are not being educated!</span>

      As long as you’re happy you can have your theological debate all good for you but to both groups you are the biggest part of the problem.

    • Kev says:

      11:03am | 15/03/11

      The problem is the Christian minority have a false belief that Christianity is the official religion of Australia. If you know enough about Australia you would know that we have no official religion and we are damn proud of that. Why do we have to be secular, muslim, buddhist or Scientologists when we are not? If you want religion in your children’s life send them to a private school that caters to your ideologies. Don’t enforce those views on others. Religion has no place in public education.

    • Chris L says:

      11:25am | 15/03/11

      ZSRenn, we have our heads in our “arse” not “ass”.

      Jugg, you’re right to point out that, as usual, the conversation could be more civil (from both sides), but the author is discussing enforcing his religion upon the state school system so I think it’s understandable that the non-religious among us are slightly outraged.

    • Randy says:

      11:37am | 15/03/11

      If I want my children to learn fairy tales and other fiction, I would send them to a Catholic/Independent school.  There is no proof of god or jesus, adam and eve, therefore why should my taxpayers money be spent on teaching about intelligent design or what not.  The school curriculum should be teaching Maths, Science, English, Social studies etc.  Religion should not be taught at schools.  Go to your church for that.

      What is an issue for me and my children’s education is that the government schools near my house in Perth are terrible.  Therefore our only choice is to send them to the local Independent school at 15k - 22K a year….. and have them taught nonsense for 40 mins a week.

    • mary says:

      11:46am | 15/03/11

      When I lived in Europe I was surprised to find that in German schools. at the time, the holocaust was not mentioned in any of their history books. They seemed to have collectively decided that the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany never occurred. How very convenient.

      In the same way some non-believers seem to prefer that the history of Christianity never occurred. Well it did. And more than 2/3 of Australian’s population is part of this history.

      The Commandments, which are the core of the bible, tell us to embrace Good and resist evil. To not call evil good and vice versa. To not kill, not lie, not steal, not covet or commit adultery, to rest regularly and be nice to our mum and dad. Summed up as ‘love your neighbour as yourself.’

      These are the guidelines, reject them if you will, come up with something better if you can. But what you can’t do is deny that this is part of our common history and that these are the guidelines.

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:50am | 15/03/11

      @ Chris L what the hell does religion matter when you have graduates that cant spell arse!

      Or bloggers that do not understand that it is rude to correct spelling in a forum.

    • Neil Campbell says:

      11:52am | 15/03/11

      acotrel - you reveal your self-deception and grand delusion as you parrtot the Leftist memes of anti-christianity and anti-semitism.

    • Neil Campbell says:

      12:02pm | 15/03/11

      For all the ‘irreligous’ outraged by the article; KNOW this, you are not neutral when you say you are secular (your unbelief requires a great faith!). Take something away and a vacuum will appear that will be filled. So let me get this correct - you are comfortable then with an Indigenous view of history? So you are OK with ‘dreamtime’ and the stories of creation? If you want to believe that a giant serpent did it, great, but dont attack the rest for believing God Almighty did it! Sprocket - maybe you shoud try the ‘magic Jesus formula’ - you are onto something - Christianity is proveable - John 7:17.

    • Neil Campbell says:

      12:09pm | 15/03/11

      Randy - my heart bleeds for you, what a real man you are - so principled, No proof God exists, so you have to send you kids to a school to be religiously indictrinated. Poor Randy! Man up and harden yourself - if you are man enough, you can prove for yourself God exists - seek and you will find, ask and it will be given and knock until you get an answer. Ask yourself also, why do I hate and resent God? He is not afraid when you hate Him - just be honest enough in your seeking.

    • mike j says:

      12:47pm | 15/03/11

      “you can prove for yourself God exists - seek and you will find”

      Truer words were never spoken, Neil Campbell. It’s called ‘self-fulfilling prophecy’. What you’re doing is adopting a belief structure that minimises cognitive dissonance, because you are spiritually or intellectually incapable of comprehending the world as it is.

      So spare us your ridiculous religious dogma; you’re not doing Christianity any favours.

    • Economist says:

      12:55pm | 15/03/11

      @acotrel, there’s more the Christianity than ethics. I have no problems with the authors need for more of a focus on Religion/Christianity, but how would it be taught? My views are as follows.

      Religion is simply an intellectual construct created by men in the belief that their views reflect those of a God.

      Christianity specifically came to being around 33 based on the testomonies of a few followers of Christ and other observers. Christians were persecuted from 1st to 3rd century until it becamse the State church of the Roman Empire in 380 under Constantine.

      Christianity expanded as the Roman Empire expanded. It worked hand in hand with the State to control the population and raise taxes on behalf of the elite, none of which went to God directly grin

      Christianity evolved and changed as various men imposed their views and interpretation with the most significant change occruing during the reformation in the 16th century.

      There are now over 2000 denominations with representatives claiming there way is the true way.

      Christianity played a key role in education with the establishment of institutions of higher learning that were established with the aim of getting closer to God and proving Gods existence. Unfortunately for the elite at the time evidence emerged challenging the status quo, creating further schisms.

      Christianity provides comfort and guidance to millions of followers and has many positive effects, including charity work. At the same time it is exploited by opportunists to make money, increase their power and abuse followers, or torture and kill non-followers.

      Today Christianity has many roles. Politically it is nothing more than a lobby group of likeminded individuals. Culturally it still is significant, but true belief have wained in the Western world. Financially it still enjoys speical treatment with tax breaks, some of which is justified in it’s non-profit work, but for many it is perceived as providing special treamtent for individuals to increase their wealth and power at the expense of the general populus.

    • Kevin (not Donnelly) says:

      12:59pm | 15/03/11

      @mary
      “The Commandments, which are the core of the bible, tell us to embrace Good and resist evil. To not call evil good and vice versa. To not kill, not lie, not steal, not covet or commit adultery, to rest regularly and be nice to our mum and dad.”
      I see.  So the prohibition against killing, lying, stealing, committing adultery, etc. is uniquely christian?
      It is that particular arrogance that non-christians find particularly offensive and is the reason why a neutral approach to education should be taken in a multi-cultural society.

    • Moses says:

      01:04pm | 15/03/11

      Christian values are not proprietary to the Christian faith. We can still have a school curriculum that embraces certain Christian values without all the other bells and whistles that goes along with it. I wouldn’t mind if they did teach religion in schools provided that ALL major religions were examined. Maybe then we would create a more tolerant society. I also think when it comes to education there is now a greater emphasis on the parents to be more proactive in educating their kids.

    • ZSRenn says:

      01:09pm | 15/03/11

      @ All! Has the ALP government delivered on its promise to develop a national curriculum that embraces the “traditional disciplines” and “the absolute basics of knowledge”?

      No this is another promise broken but where has the focus of this forum gone. Religion!

      @ Chris L to say the author is forcing Christianity down our throats is a lie at best and calls me to ask did you even read the story or just the headline.

      He only questions why the contribution of the Catholic Church both good and bad and the influence it has had on who we are is not taught. He asks why our Anglo-Celtic history is being ignored despite its massive influence on who we are as a nation.

      In the article 153 words deal with Christianity of 1157 or 13% of the article but look at the comments. 90% is religious argument. 

      And the truth remains.

      <span style=“text-decoration: underline;”>The education provided to our youth today is appalling!</span>

      But you guys keep arguing religion with your head in the sand. That is going to make all the difference.

    • Possumfella says:

      01:10pm | 15/03/11

      We need a national curriculum - but those in Canberra need to get out to some of the sub cultural communities to see what they have or haven’t done for the country. I find it extremely prejudice that my family’s contributions to this country are feted as unimportant at the expense of others

    • mary says:

      02:55pm | 15/03/11

      You see Kevin, had you studied the history of Christianity and the bible you would know that the bible teaches us these morals. Does that make the prohibition against killing, lying, stealing, committing adultery, etc. uniquely christian? No, I would certainly hope not. And that is certainly not my experience in life either. Often quite the contrary, as also history will tell us.

      But the principles as mentioned in my post, come from the Commandments and no other religion (I studied most of them) actually lays it out quite like that. Just those ten simple rules to live by.

    • Jean says:

      03:51pm | 15/03/11

      What does Christianity have to do with education? It’s bad enough schools still have to do their token half hour of Scripture each week, when the kids have far more important things to learn. Religious values are not for school, they should be taught at home if the family so desires. School is for learning to read, write, count, speak etc, etc. Further, in a class of 22 students I have exactly 2 children with a Christian background, and this is a public school. I think the new curriculum would suit them fine.

    • Neil Campbell says:

      03:53pm | 15/03/11

      mikej - do you exist? How do I know? From your moniker (mikej). You exist to me as a written WORD - Oh, thats how God has revealed Himself to us today! (Bible) mikej - Jesus is a historical FACT - He has more history and eyewitness accounts written about Him than Julius Ceaser. If you want to do circle work (seek, find self, seek) you go mikey j; but I’m glad I have found what I’m looking for. What are you afraid of mikej!?! Sarah Palin? Cognitive dissonance is being afraid of reality - not facing the truth - their is so much evidence & fact for the reality of Christianity, that you are in denial.

    • Informer says:

      04:27pm | 15/03/11

      God is there if you accept it or not is irrelevant. Believe what you want but you see the history? 3 major foundations…muslim, jewish, and christ…before anything was God. People get so antsi about it but truth is from a history point of view…it’s truth (not like harry potter that came out of her head this century) from a modern view…evidence of God is here now…its just not acknowledged by everyone.

    • Scott says:

      04:42pm | 15/03/11

      Some arguments for Christianity to be taught in school:
      1) You can’t teach evolution (which is not a proven science) without Creation (which is a science based around faith).
      2) Christmas and Easter are both Christian holidays and the reason for holiday’s should be discussed in Church.

    • mike says:

      04:44pm | 15/03/11

      i just want to point out that education should educate about what was, else repeat every mistake due to no relevance for continuity of what we have now. AND, NOT change the way it is viewed, just to gloss over good bad or indifferent perspectives. The facts of last 3000 years are very much relevant to our way of life today. That is how our laws and customs evolved, but i do not care if you have faith or not, but i believe that it is wrong to hide the hope of more than this existence. ELSE, why has man in every ethnicity tried to develop ways to explain or encompass this ephemeral quantity.

    • Another Dave says:

      04:45pm | 15/03/11

      Well luckily the” 10 simple rules to live by” include covetting & adultery, rather than inconsequentials like rape & genocide, considering the rest of the story of exodus. I’ve always thought it ironic that when Moses returned to camp bearing a commandment against killing, one of his first acts was the slaughter of those worshipping the golden calf. Observance went right downhill after that.

    • James In Footscray says:

      05:24pm | 15/03/11

      ZSRenn, you have to laugh! Straight after your first impassioned plea to take the discussion away from religion and back to education, the next comment is: ‘The problem is the Christian minority ...’

    • Chris L says:

      06:20pm | 15/03/11

      @ZSRenn - very well, he is not “forcing Christianity down our throats”, not that I said that, but it remains a good point.

      Nor is he advocating teaching the historic effect of the Catholic Church “both good and bad”. In fact he points out where the church is mentioned and complains that it is either lumped in with other religions or shown in a negative way. If you want to suggest that people haven’t read the article they’re commenting on please ensure that you have read it yourself grin

      Of course the subjects of English and mathematics have plenty of room for improvement, but that is not discussed in any real depth in this article. In fact this article appears to simply be an appeal to have the subject of history focus on christian history and in a favourable light while diminishing the importance of other facets of history.

      My objections remain.

    • acotrel says:

      07:54pm | 15/03/11

      @kev,
      I disagree with you comment that ‘religion has no place in public education’.  Religion is a form of indoctrination which can be used to facilitate control and manipulation of the individual .  Ignorance of its many facets is dangerous to democracy.

    • acotrel says:

      07:59pm | 15/03/11

      @Economist - Why did the Roman emperor Constantine embrace christianity?  Couldn’t possibly have been the desire to maintain CONTROL could it?

    • acotrel says:

      08:03pm | 15/03/11

      @Mirror
      ‘Is the belief that we will lapse into delusion, rational?’

      It’s not a belief, it’s a conclusion based on observation!

    • acotrel says:

      08:10pm | 15/03/11

      @Wayne I wasn’t discussing ‘discipline’ in the sense of punishment and justice.  I meant it as ‘a discipline’ in the sense of ‘ethics’ being the same as any other field of science being an area of rigorous study!

    • Charles says:

      11:06pm | 15/03/11

      Religion dose not belong in schools. It poisons the minds of young children and chains them down. When they reach adulthood there free to chose what ever they like.
      Time and history have proven the book to be false and nothing but fiction and the distortion of human history.

    • DocBud says:

      11:53pm | 15/03/11

      Mary,

      If you think the bible contains ten simple rules to live by you obviously never got as far as Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

      Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

      Leviticus 19:19 “Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.”

      It doesn’t specify the penalty for mingling but it’s a fair bet it will hurt a tad. Freedom of religion there is not:

      Deuteronomy 13:12-15 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, hen you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.”

      But to be fair, this slaughter will only happen after diligent investigation when it is clear that the inhabitants are bang to rights.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:09am | 16/03/11

      @ James in Footscray. I did have a chuckle at that. It is sad that so many people would like to push their barrow on the subject of religion that they see the word Christian in a headline and that’s all that matters.

      The problem is they are the victims of the same poor education system that our kids today are victim of. 

      They do not want to hear that in China the focus of a Childs life is on becoming educated with parents working 80 hours a week so they can spend 80% of their wage to educate their child. The children are happy to do this because they know that only through education can they move forward into a better life for themselves, their parents and also for China.

      It is like there is a whole world of Punchers out there sitting waiting in anticipation for the word Christian to appear and the moment it does they swing into action. The ignorance flows in a wave of stupid comment after stupid comment.

      Anti Christians waving the flag with calls that Christian schools do not teach evolution (Forget the fact I was at a Catholic school most of my life and is where I learnt about Evolution)

      Christians flouting that the Old Testament as the word of God! Not the collection of myths, record of births deaths and marriages that it is.

      They would rather argue this topic than the real topic of our children not being educated in life, and knowledge.

      They would rather argue this topic than the fact that we are weakening ourselves as a people through poor education.

      They would rather have their head in the sand regarding the dangers this presents to us.

      As long as they have their religion of disbelief or belief they are happy to argue!

      That this article contains the word Christian 8 times and only to point out that its historical significance is of little importance.

      That this article points out another failed policy of the Labor government is not significant.

      That Julia Gillard has said on more than one occasion she is happier dealing with education than international affairs and yet education in Australia remains major problem is of no relevance.

      That we will in the future be reliant on other nations for our technology, medical advances and investment does not enter the conversation.

      So far 402 comments, 99% arguing about religion be it the belief of disbelief or belief of belief. .

      Good one Australia as long as you have your priorities right!

    • Chris L says:

      11:38am | 16/03/11

      @ZSRenn, this article was specifically about focussing the subject of history on a christian-anglo angle specifically in such a way to give it a positive, rather than factual, impression. Hence the christianity part is correctly being discussed in detail by people who are remaining on topic.

      Rather than add to this discussion, or to the topics you want to see discussed, you seem more focused on complaining about a perceived apathy, accusing people of having their heads in sand or their “ass” (sic) and saying things that they didn’t (I don’t like being misquoted and then called a liar). How about you start a thread about the importance of academic subjects and point out how they can be better rather than just complain that no-one else is doing this?

    • AllanJ says:

      12:18pm | 16/03/11

      From what I have seen of those promoting the issue in Australia, “lessons in ethics” is code for “far left-wing political indoctrination.”

    • True Believer says:

      12:26pm | 16/03/11

      @Docbud &ZSRenn;
      Why do you keep referring to the Old Testament?  Haven’t you read the New Testament - that is what Christianity is about.  Through Jesus a new agreement came between God and man - because man of himself cannot save himself. Jesus came to bridge the gap between the Creator and His creation.  The greatest act of Love this planet has ever seen.

    • ZSRenn says:

      02:47pm | 16/03/11

      @ Chris L and True Believer (How fucking arrogant is that name)

      After my last comment.

      What do you come back at me with?

      They dribble more religion and the fact that I misspelled ass.

      I am so glad people are reading and understanding what I say!

      Sheesh why bother! You lot deserve what you get.

      Bad government and bad education!

    • Randy says:

      04:29pm | 16/03/11

      @Neil Campbell

      I do not hate or resent god, as I do not believe god exists.  You or none of cultist friends can prove god exists either.  Saying you must have faith to believe is a simple cop out. 
      It isn’t about being ‘man enough’ to prove to myself god exists or not, as anybody would struggle to believe in a high and mighty power after seeing the horrible earth quakes and tsunami in Japan.

      I’d like to know what makes Christianity more correct or right than any of the other Religions.  Are their mulitple gods, one for each relegion?  Or is each belief system wrong?  Or are they all right?  Face facts, religion is simply a way of controlling large amount of people.

      All our schools should be secular if they are receiving money of the Tax payer.  If schools are teaching religion, they should not be paid for by the tax payer.

    • Non believer says:

      09:21am | 17/03/11

      School is for learning, Church is for religion!

    • Chris L says:

      12:15pm | 17/03/11

      I’ve read your comments ZSRenn and have noticed that they consist of complaining that no-one is talking about what you want them to talk about, (seriously man, start a thread and others may join in. You never know ‘till you try) and a few vague warnings that parents and students in China are working that much harder than us (which might be true, perhaps your nineteen year old would be more comprehensible if you and she had followed the Chinese example you mentioned and put the hours in instead of sitting back and complaining that the government isn’t doing enough).

      Other than that you are just providing more complaining and a few insults (TB is not an arrogant person. I’m happy to describe her as delusion but she assures me she’s not that either).

    • Richard says:

      02:19pm | 17/03/11

      It’s interesting how this quickly became a ‘religious’ <cough>debate<cough> (I shudder at the tarnishing that word is getting above), when all that really needs to be observed is that Christianity played a very large, very important and very ignored (in the National Curriculum) part in the development of, not only, our own great and diverse nation, but all other western (and some not western) nations around the globe.

      I think the main issue being raised in the article is that the only role being presented to our impressionable young students is that of the Church as oppressor, tax merchant and thief. This is quite obviously a 1 sided, bigoted view which does not stand scrutiny when compared with actual history. Some classic examples which are ignored: freedom from slaves (William Wilberforce - directly from Christian beliefs), the rise of public (yes, government funded) education (again, directly from Christian beliefs), unionism (yep - from Christian beliefs), most of the laws which come from our British heritage (again, Christians played the largest part), alerting the world to the holocaust (Dietrich Bonhoffer died for this, as well as his other criticisms of Hitler), the major UK and US universities, which we base our models on (all began by Christians, because they were Christians), John Flynn (flying doctors) - need I say more? ... the list goes on and on and on…

      It is time to stop pretending that an Atheist has any more right to silence actual history than a Christian has right to make it up. The author was not asking for the Jesus message to be included in the curriculum, merely the acknowledgement of the importance that it has played in our collective history. It can only be religious discrimination which allows for actual history to be silenced for a humanist (which is a religion) agenda. The two are not at cross purposes - rather, we should be seeking to illuminate our students to the idea that life isn’t all about one way of seeing things.

    • PaulB says:

      02:50pm | 17/03/11

      I think some of the christians here have proven that you are too late to save us from delusion Aco.

    • Greg Kasarik says:

      08:29pm | 17/03/11

      I agree with a traditional approach to the teaching of core subjects, that adequately teaches a range of skills and abilities that students can then take into further study. I object greatly to the inclusion of political content designed to improperly influence young people’s opinions. When teaching, it is preferrable to include some facts.

      And sadly, this author seems to be of the opinion that Christianity is responsible for the society that we inhabit today, when in fact it is the enlightenment and the rise of secular, humanistic and scientific philosophies that have allowed this. Countries dominated by religion are intellectually scarred and pay a significant cost in terms of liberty and freedom.

      As far as teaching religion is concerned, I am heartily opposed. It is not the role of the state to teach about god. It is the role of god to do this, so if he really wants it done, he can come into the classrooms every week and tell all the students everything they need to know about him.

    • Erick says:

      05:18am | 15/03/11

      The education system, like the mass media, is pretty much useless for gaining any real perspective on history and the present state of the world. Both institutions have become little more than propaganda mills for the dominant left-wing paradigm.

      However, the good news is that both of these dinosaurs are rapidly losing ground to the small furry creatures of the Internet. While schools and broadcasters will continue to exist, the vast majority of learning, news and cultural transmission will be in the form of discussions on the Web.

      And not before time.

    • Pete says:

      07:20am | 15/03/11

      God help us if that’s the truth Erick, because a lot of news on the net ain’t news…mass media is still the place people turn to for real news.

    • L. says:

      08:26am | 15/03/11

      “mass media is still the place people turn to for real news. “

      No it’s not…and hasn’t been for a few years now. Just look at the declining traditional media sales, especially print media, as an example.

      Do you really think Fox News is “real” news..??

    • undertow says:

      08:38am | 15/03/11

      Small furry creatures? Oh… RATS!

    • rufus says:

      09:57am | 15/03/11

      Tell us when you were last closely involved with the education system, Erick, allowing you make an evaluation that it’s ‘pretty much useless for gaining any real perspective on history..’ etc. I suspect that’s just more of your uninformed bias. Pretty much useless, in other words.

    • 666 says:

      11:51am | 15/03/11

      Is this your job Erick? Replying to articles?

    • Economist says:

      12:57pm | 15/03/11

      YEs Erick, it is truly scary what some people link to as facts. Yes the internet is dangerous in that it allows people not to challenge their views. Ignorance is bliss.

    • Erick says:

      05:21am | 15/03/11

      P.S. I should have mentioned this relevant news item:

      “News consumption online increased 17 per cent last year from the year before, the project said in its eighth annual State of the News Media survey.

      “Meanwhile, US local, network and cable television news, newspapers, radio and magazines all lost audience last year, according to the Project for Excellence in Journalism, a research organisation that evaluates and studies the performance of the press.

      “The percentage of people who say they get news online at least three times a week surpassed newspapers for the first time. It was second only to local TV news as the most popular news platform and seems poised to pass that medium, too, project director Tom Rosenstiel said.”

    • True Believer says:

      05:40am | 15/03/11

      @Acotrel
      A person who denies their Creator is the one living a delusion.

    • Horse says:

      06:42am | 15/03/11

      Yes, Allahu Akbar.

    • grumpy old man says:

      07:18am | 15/03/11

      thats in your opinion right? because no true Christian would deny others the rights to their own beliefs would they?

    • Tom Daly says:

      07:29am | 15/03/11

      Well poor fella me !  Here I am now , with a whole new outlook on life
      including the hereafter ,after the warning of “true believer"informing me, I am deluded. I always considered BC a time in history and have never
      really considered it a religious time , but a reference point growing by 1
      annually and AD was throughout my life always after dinner. Having got
      this far i’ll continue in the same way , but because of you ,  now with a new outlook and aware there may be consequences, just to keep me on my toes in a theological sense.  Is this the best of both worlds, or
      having a bit each way ?  Peace upon you my undeluded brother !

    • Jade says:

      07:40am | 15/03/11

      Haha… are you sure about that? I beg to differ.  Science has proven evolution ... however creationism has nothing.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:50am | 15/03/11

      True Acotrel, but I get along quite well with my parents.  That the act of love they shared and then gave me so unconditionally my whole life be reduced by you to blind faith in the ideals of others is what is truly disgraceful.

    • malohi says:

      08:25am | 15/03/11

      Why would you deny your parents existed?

    • Chris L says:

      08:40am | 15/03/11

      Either you’re worshipping a character that you have no evidence for (delusional) or you believe you’ve met this character (hallucinating) or you simply felt his/her presence (paranoid). In any case you might not want to bring psychology terms into a discussion involving religon lest you kick an own goal.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      09:53am | 15/03/11

      @Jade, creationism has something… faith. It’s the most effective counter to any volley of brute rationalism. Just have faith guys. Ignore the nightmares exploding all around you. Just have faith. Faith is all you need. Note: I’m rocking like a mental patient as I type this.

    • Barney says:

      10:15am | 15/03/11

      Creator who is that - someone you have contact with , someone you know

    • Leah says:

      10:52am | 15/03/11

      Jade, while I am not a fan of people like “True Believer” who go around calling people deluded because they don’t believe the same way as them, I’m also not a fan of people like you who go around propagating blatant untruths. Any educated evolutionist will tell you evolution has nowhere near been proven.

    • Kika says:

      10:55am | 15/03/11

      And in rejection and believes in solely themselves and the “Ruler of the Air”

    • True Believer says:

      10:59am | 15/03/11

      @Grumpy old man

      It is much, much more than a belief I assure you. I do not deny others rights to their beliefs, however, having been where unbelievers hang out spiritually I encourage people to look beyond what they presume about all there is.  Materialism and atheism bring a very limited view of life.  I have been on both sides and I assure you there is much, much more.  Thank you for your comment.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:00am | 15/03/11

      Yes Leah, and they will also say the evidence for evolution is enormous while the evidence for religion is zero.

    • kev says:

      11:22am | 15/03/11

      Only a fool deny and denounces another belief system. Proclaiming theirs to be right.
      @True believer: what difference do you have compared to that of a Buddhist, muslim, or a hindu? You all have faith in supreme beings who created all we see, hear and feel. You all have teachings to love and care for one another. You all have these promises that if you follow and hold dear your teachings you will go to a good place.

      Only death will prove who is right. To be honest I like Kerry Packer have had an insight into what is out there. I hope you haven’t wasted your time. My tidbit is live today like it’s your last.

      After personally reading a few of the great books I personally have found that Christianity is not as unique as one would think.

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:26am | 15/03/11

      Our Children are not being educated but you go on with your theological debate. I am sure thats more important!

    • LC says:

      11:30am | 15/03/11

      @ True Beliver,

      Which one? There have been 10,000s of religions in human history. Any one of them could be the “true religion”, or maybe none of them?

    • mike j says:

      11:34am | 15/03/11

      You fail, Leah. Evolution is absolutely science fact, and I wish you defensive, religious pseudoscientists would stop saying otherwise. The theory may not be fully refined, in the same way the substructure of atoms is not fully understood, but that doesn’t make the concept in any way debatable.

      Atoms exist, and so does evolution. Fact.

      Many natural phenomena cannot be fully understood or empirically ‘proven’ beyond any doubt, but the scientific community considers something ‘proven’ when “the overwhelming majority of scientists accepts [it]” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionism

    • Andy says:

      12:02pm | 15/03/11

      I just love that someone has cited Wikipedia as proof of their claim that “Evolution is absolutely science fact..”

      Irony thy name is mike j.

    • Matthew says:

      12:41pm | 15/03/11

      I do believe God is my creator.  I like to call him a “Dev” and ask for nerfs to christians because their “faith” is too powerful.

    • mike j says:

      12:51pm | 15/03/11

      Scoffing at the veracity of a peer-reviewed publication is not a counter-argument, simpleton.

    • Brett says:

      01:34pm | 15/03/11

      Mike, micro evolution has indeed been proven, but species wide macro evolution has not, nor has the formation of early life from non life. Saying evolution has been proven is as bad as saying string theory is correct and the only logical unified theory. Neither have provided predicitons that have been able to experimentally, or evidentially proven. Come back when your theory is no longer a theory. Until then, anyone COULD be correct.

    • True Believer says:

      01:38pm | 15/03/11

      @Tom Daly

      Join the queue for mockers, they are a dime a dozen. :0) You make several assumptions - one being I am your “undeluded brother” - sorry to disappoint you, but I am not your brother.  Mmmmm assumptions can be so wrong can’t they. :0)

      @Jade “science has proven evolution” you state - well there are many scientists who would debate you on that one. I am not a scientist so I talk about what I know to be true, not man’s “theories.”

      @ChrisL

      Psychology has a place and yes I have studied that an psychiatry so I can tell you none of your “diagnoses” pertain to me.  However, psychology, like science, whilst having their place are not the answer to everything there is I can assure you. There is so much more, but if you are happy a narrow materialistic view of life, that is your God-given choice. 

      Does it bring your peace, joy, hope, love, surety of who you are why you were created?  I do not mean in a human transient sense, I mean immutable peace, joy, hope, love, surety of who you are and why you were created. I doubt it does. :0)

      @Leah
      acotrel says:05:09am | 15/03/11
      “The morals which are the obsession of christians, are a subset of ethics, a discipline which should be taught in schools.  Rationality must prevail in all things or we lapse into delusion. “

      This was Alcotrel’s post I was responding to re being deluded.

      @Barney
      Yep He can be known - I know Him. :0)

      @Sad Sad Reality

      Well you have named yourself well my friend.  You have zero evidence for saying there is no Creator.  You only have your opinion and your assumptions. That is no proof at all - you cannot prove He is not there, no one can. He is there, I assure you. :0)\

      @Kev and LC

      I have not the slightest interest in religions - I am talking about the Living God - there is only one. He can be known by those who come with an honest and humble heart to acknowledge Him and want to know Him. He is hidden to you because you choose unbelief/atheism. I choose to know Him, you choose not to. Your choice, but it does not change the fact of who He is. :0)

    • kev says:

      01:51pm | 15/03/11

      @Mike J: Wiki is not a peer reviewed paper. Wiki is a reliable as a drunk at the local for accuracies on their recent fishing trip

    • Fred Phillips says:

      02:43pm | 15/03/11

      I will continue to deny my Creator until there’s any form of verifiable evidence whatsoever as to His/Her existence, because far from being delusional that is the only rational course.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      02:45pm | 15/03/11

      TB, I can prove its not there. WW1. WW2. Christchurch. Japan. 911. London bombings. Beslan. Rwanda. Liberia. Haiti. Any god who orchestrates such things couldn’t really be “all there” could they?

    • Andy says:

      02:57pm | 15/03/11

      mike j, name calling and hissy-fits are probably not doing as much for your credibility as you think.

      As has been pointed out, Wikipedia is not a peer reviewed publication.

      I know for a fact that there are plenty of really good arguments in support of the theory of evolution out there on the internet, many that can cite serious peer-reviewed data. Using Wikipedia as your source is just laziness or naivety and makes others who share your opinions look silly by association.

    • mike j says:

      03:08pm | 15/03/11

      Congratulations, kev. Rather than debate the topic, you have selected the informal fallacy: “Wikipedia is inaccurate” (Reductio ad Wikipedium). This particular fallacy is the last resort of intellectual lightweights who don’t have evidence to challenge someone’s claims.

      In truth, Wikipedia is inaccurate… about the fishing trips of drunks and the personal lives of celebrities. Rarely about verifiable facts. Wikipedia didn’t say evolution was correct, just that the vast majority of scientists support it. Do you dispute with this (referenced) assertion? If so, cite evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, why don’t you go spend some time looking up all the big words you’re using but obviously don’t understand.

    • mike j says:

      03:37pm | 15/03/11

      You’re embarrassing yourself, Brett.

      The term “macroevolution” frequently arises within the context of the evolution/creation debate, usually used by creationists alleging a significant difference between the evolutionary changes observed in field and laboratory studies and the larger scale macroevolutionary changes that scientists believe to have taken thousands or millions of years to occur. They may accept that evolutionary change is possible within species (“microevolution”), but deny that one species can evolve into another (“macroevolution”). Contrary to this belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level (“macroevolution”, i.e. speciation in a specific case) has indeed been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature. The claim that macroevolution does not occur, or is impossible, is thus demonstrably false and without support in the scientific community. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution

    • mike j says:

      03:52pm | 15/03/11

      Wikipedia, while itself a peer reviewed publication (where your peers review, and can challenge, your work… peer review isn’t a difficult concept, Andy), is more a meta analysis of other publications. It isn’t a study in itself, but draws conclusions from pre-existing studies. Referencing is mandatory (unlike here). Contrary to your claims, the fact that you haven’t even bothered checking Wikipedia is more an indication of your laziness, and your desperation to cherry pick arguments that suit your cause. Again, you’re challenging the source of information, not the proposition itself. This is tantamount to capitulation.

    • Aaron says:

      04:09pm | 15/03/11

      You know, It’s ridiculous that so many people will be so quick to yell “Christianity is a hoax, there’s no evidence, therefore, it’s not real” and yet jumping so quickly on the band wagon that says “Evolution is an undeniable scientific fact.”

      Evolution has by no means come even close being able to be called a fact. There’s even less evidence about Evolution. If you research Christianity properly, you’ll find that there’s a lot of evidence about Jesus, there’s no denying he was a man, he was killed by the Romans, it’s after his death that people start differing on opinion.

      The fact that this educational curriculum is so quick to condemn Christianity (Reading from the excerpts in the article), and yet so many people believe in evolution just as blindly as many Christians believe in God. This leads me to believe that the people responsible were in some way hurt by Christians (an unfortunately common occurrence, really). I think that religion really needs to be taught in schools. Not necessarily as fact, but they need to be presented impartially, and given European Australia’s roots in Christianity, it’s surprising that it’s not covered as such.

      If you think that Christianity, or any religion, should not be taught as fact, then you can not think that evolution should be taught as fact either.

    • Tedd says:

      04:32pm | 15/03/11

      Aaron,

      Evolution has been verified by genetics, palaeontology, etc, starting with Gergor Mendels work, the discovery of chromosomes & DNA, and putting it all together in the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis in the 1940s.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis

      There is minimal mention of Jesus outside the Bible, and most of that extra-biblical notes just briefly mention Christians or minimally rehash of Christian narratives e.g. one of Josephus’ reference (the non-doctored one) is just “who was ‘called’ Christ” i.e. just ‘called’ a messiah.  No verification he was.

    • Jugg says:

      04:53pm | 15/03/11

      Precisely Aaron.  The don’t seem capable of understanding the depth of the argument.  I expect a few to struggle with both your post and the concept.

    • mike j says:

      04:57pm | 15/03/11

      No… what’s ridiculous, Aaron, is that I’ve met homeless drunks who could formulate more coherent arguments than Christians.

      ‘Jesus really existed, therefore the stories about him being a magical wizard and the son of God must be true.’

      By entension of your argument, I exist, therefore I’m also a magical wizard and the son of God.

    • Aaron says:

      05:50pm | 15/03/11

      Mike j, I did not claim that he was a magical wizard. I said that there was a guy named Jesus, who corresponds with the Jesus of the bible. Not once did I say that he was a God. Perhaps you should re-read my argument.

      If we are going to educate our kids not to be drones, then we need to present them with all the views, or at least, a lot. If we go around saying that evolution is fact, when the evidence behind it clearly doesn’t support that conclusion, it’s no better than teaching that Christianity is the only truth.

      As for the comment about homeless drunks forming better arguments than Christians, I’ve heard some very persuasive arguments from both sides, and, I’ve seen homeless drunks who can form far more coherent arguments than Christians AND atheists, that doesn’t do anything to prove or disprove Christianity or evolution, it simply says that there are some homeless drunks out there who are better educated than some Australians, which ties into the view of this article, that our education system is a joke.

      My goal is not to convert anyone to evolution or Christianity, it’s to get our kids to have all the options laid out before them, so they can make their choice and exercise their free will.

    • Aaron says:

      06:22pm | 15/03/11

      Oh, and Tedd, sorry, I must have skipped over your comment before. I read that link that you gave me, it’s quite interesting, unfortunately, the main thing about Modern Evolution Synthesis is that, according to this wiki entry, “The synthesis reflects the current overwhelming consensus.” This does not go any further in proving the point of evolution. From what I’ve read, it seems to be like the M-Theory of evolutionary biology, simply (or not so simply) uniting the current theories under one roof.

      It’s dangerous to accept such things as fact just because the majority accept it to be the case, because if you recall the whole “Dark/Middle ages,” the dominance and power wielded by the church in Europe lead to everyone being educated that Christianity was FACT, which reflected the overwhelming consensus of the time, and that the church, as the direct line to God, was irrefutable, this resulted in many crusades and lots of Holy Wars which should never have happened.

      As for your remarks about Jesus, the bible is a very small part of the recorded works regarding Jesus, now, many scholars have claimed that the gospels depicting Jesus’ life and execution could be considered historically accurate, while his resurrection is questioned. Others say that the evidence is too scant to allow for any historical accuracy. However, the majority seem to follow the former.

      I will say that I may have mis-read, I am human, and prone to making mistakes. Again, I will say that what I want is for all the options to be put out before our kids, without bias or prejudice, so that they can make their own, well informed, choice.

    • Andy says:

      06:40pm | 15/03/11

      mike j, I am not capitulating anything, in fact I am not even arguing against your major premise. I just think your rabid, frothing at the mouth attack dog approach makes you sound like a zealot. You seem keen to paint any religious people as zealots but how are you any better?

      ...and your insistence that Wikipedia is a peer reviewed publication is pure comedy gold.

    • Neil Campbell says:

      08:02pm | 15/03/11

      mikej -  all the greatest scientists do not believe in evolution; look up John Lennox - he regularily beats Hitchens in debates. Funny you never hear about it in the MSM.  “Atheism is not great,” said John Lennox, professor of mathematics and philosophy at Oxford University, as he squared off with Christopher Hitchens, author of “God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.” Now mikej - John Lennox, Oxford professor of pure maths & philosphy - it is possible to still be rational and have faith; dont you think? or are your arguments only irrational and emotional?

    • mike j says:

      08:14pm | 15/03/11

      Oh, good! Now it’s not about my sources, it’s about my character? No, you’re not arguing against my major premise, you’re attempting to undermine my credibility by dropping ad hominem like a cheap lawyer and using a narrow interpretation of ‘peer review’ in a weak attempt at a straw man.

      Off-topic, personal attacks, logical fallacies… hmm.

      Someone just deconstructed the shit out of my humorous reference to homeless drunks (who, I am reliably informed, are actually remarkably coherent), so I’ll try to be a little more politically correct… you’re not a Christian, are you, Andy?

    • kev says:

      09:07pm | 15/03/11

      @True Believer What a cop out response. He only appears to those worthy. Atypical response to someone who is one eyed about it all. brainwashed and sold up the river by a group of people who want tithing. I have proof what is out after this life you don’t.
      If jesus said to his apostles let the children come to me after they stopped the kids from seeing your jesus. In my childhood I know what the after life holds. You will be sorely disappointed. Where is your proof True Believer? Like me have you had 3 death experiences? Have you survied electricution? Have you survived 2 chronic Asthmatic attacks that had Ambulance drivers loose you several times and the hospital staff pronounce you dead. Only to wake up? Before you cast stones Understand what you are dealing in. my uneducated aquaintence

    • mike j says:

      09:07pm | 15/03/11

      It is not just possible, Neil Campbell. Faith and rationality are entirely compatible. One might even argue that rationality presupposes faith in the continuity of observable phenomena.

      I have faith that I’m not going to fall off the bottom of the world because I subscribe to a vague theory called gravity, but my faith is rational because of the wealth of empirical evidence supporting this theory, and because I can observe it in practice. You have faith in an arbitrary cultural interpretation of human spirituality because of the geographical location in which you were raised.

    • acotrel says:

      09:22pm | 15/03/11

      @ True Believer - ‘Beauty is in the eye of the beholder’?

    • acotrel says:

      09:29pm | 15/03/11

      @Andy I don’t think any real scientist could list even one proven ‘FACT’!  There is uncertainty in every measurement, that’s why we do error analysis to estimate it!

    • acotrel says:

      09:35pm | 15/03/11

      @True Believer
      ’ I am not a scientist so I talk about what I know to be true, not man’s “theories.”’

      How do you know something to be ‘true’? Is your truth based on rational analysis and measurement?

    • acotrel says:

      03:59am | 16/03/11

      @Sad Sad Reality.  To be effective we must all have faith. - Faith in ourselves and each other.  We have to be able to trust that our helpers actions will be ethical, and risk managed.  I suggest that most of us know that the vast majority of people will do you a good turn before a bad one.  Our soldiers in WW1 , in particular, knew this.  It’s how they won the most intractable and horrific war ever. As Australians we know how our mates will act in a crisis.  By all means pray if you ythink it will help, but in the end we must all be prepared to ‘do the hard yards’!

    • True Believer says:

      11:30am | 16/03/11

      @Fred Phillips
      “I will continue to deny my Creator until there’s any form of verifiable evidence whatsoever as to His/Her existence, because far from being delusional that is the only rational course.”

      Your prerogative – I would have thought the fact you are here, living on an incredibly complex planet would have pointed to you having a Creator – but if you prefer to believe your ancestors came forth from swamp slime as the evolution theory suggests, so be it.

      If God was so little he could be “proven” by His creation He would not be the God I know. 

      @Kev.
      Thank you for your comment and observations, mistaken as they are.
      I have not been brain-washed by anyone.  I do not tithe – nor believe that is appropriate under the New Testament – some denominations and some of the major cults do it I know, but they are nothing to do with me.
      I met the Author, then read His book and have known Him for a good many years.

      You had NDE’s – so what, there have been many, some of the Lord some of Satan – the former to uplift, the latter to confuse.  Perhaps yours were from the latter source. I have friends who have been similarly mislead with NDE’s. There are many books and online sites of people who had experiences from the Lord and they have realised He is there.  However, if you have survived all those things did it occur to you that perhaps Jesus is reaching out to you?

      I can assure you I have an excellent educational background and a long life of experience in many things, including being an unbeliever to my shame, and then knowing my Lord.  I only tell it how it really is. Not how people who are in denial about God being there wish to twist the Truth.

      @Acotrel
      “How do you know something to be ‘true’? Is your truth based on rational analysis and measurement?”

      Yes it is based on Truth – a Truth which will not fit under a microscope for the scrutiny of man. 

      Your “truth” – presumably that there is no God – where is your “proof” for that statement – where is your evidence. Please do not trot out evolution and science – they do not have all the answers,  like scientists who are only human they can be and often are fallible.

    • True Believer says:

      11:30am | 16/03/11

      @Fred Phillips
      “I will continue to deny my Creator until there’s any form of verifiable evidence whatsoever as to His/Her existence, because far from being delusional that is the only rational course.”

      Your prerogative – I would have thought the fact you are here, living on an incredibly complex planet would have pointed to you having a Creator – but if you prefer to believe your ancestors came forth from swamp slime as the evolution theory suggests, so be it.

      If God was so little he could be “proven” by His creation He would not be the God I know. 

      @Kev.
      Thank you for your comment and observations, mistaken as they are.
      I have not been brain-washed by anyone.  I do not tithe – nor believe that is appropriate under the New Testament – some denominations and some of the major cults do it I know, but they are nothing to do with me.
      I met the Author, then read His book and have known Him for a good many years.

      You had NDE’s – so what, there have been many, some of the Lord some of Satan – the former to uplift, the latter to confuse.  Perhaps yours were from the latter source. I have friends who have been similarly mislead with NDE’s. There are many books and online sites of people who had experiences from the Lord and they have realised He is there.  However, if you have survived all those things did it occur to you that perhaps Jesus is reaching out to you?

      I can assure you I have an excellent educational background and a long life of experience in many things, including being an unbeliever to my shame, and then knowing my Lord.  I only tell it how it really is. Not how people who are in denial about God being there wish to twist the Truth.

      @Acotrel
      “How do you know something to be ‘true’? Is your truth based on rational analysis and measurement?”

      Yes it is based on Truth – a Truth which will not fit under a microscope for the scrutiny of man. 

      Your “truth” – presumably that there is no God – where is your “proof” for that statement – where is your evidence. Please do not trot out evolution and science – they do not have all the answers,  like scientists who are only human they can be and often are fallible.

    • True Believer says:

      09:01am | 17/03/11

      @ZSRenn

      Well if all you learned at school was to intersperse your conversation with references to sexual intercourse, I guess your eduction sadly failed.

      Seems it did nothing to assist you have respect for others either.  Says much more about you than it does about those you so arrogantly sit in judgement of.

      I asked a courteous question - you came back with filth. Yes the education system has sure gone downhill since I was educated if you are an example. It does need fixing.

    • Tedd says:

      06:02am | 15/03/11

      You’ve really got s bee in yer bonnet about this, haven’t you, Kevin?

      Appeals to tradition, and origins - the genetic fallacy - have no place in modern education, other than relevant history courses. 

      Appeals to “grand narratives” are just grandiose.

    • Ripa says:

      07:14am | 15/03/11

      Who says they have no place in modern education?
      If anything,PC has no place in education, “politically correctness” should be diagnosed as a psychological disorder.

    • Tedd says:

      07:26am | 15/03/11

      Ripa, I didn’t say traditions or origins have no place, I said appeals to them have no place, implying appeals to their primacy have no place.  There is a difference.  Nothing to do with “PC”, either.

      Facilitating a deep approach to learning and the ability to appraise is important.

    • rufus says:

      10:02am | 15/03/11

      PC is in the eye of the beholder, Ripa. No doubt there are things you hold to be politically correct, even if you wouldn’t use the term.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      10:35am | 15/03/11

      @rufus, PC isn’t in the eye of the beholder at all. Its purpose is clear to any rational thinking adult - sugarcoating and distorting reality to soothe the sensibilities of minorities.

    • rufus says:

      10:56am | 15/03/11

      Sad, sad reality - your expressions ‘to any rational thinking adult’ and ‘sugarcoating’ etc are examples of your own form of political correctness. The political correctness you condemn are expressions of views and use of language you don’t agree with.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:18am | 15/03/11

      rufus, I always enjoy watching someone try to obfuscate the obvious with pedantic falsehoods so thanks. I made no appeals to political correctness, just actual correctness. For example: It is politically correct to assume no Muslims are terrorists when it is actually correct to assume that a few are and that they are supported by many. That is the difference. One strategy peddles obvious lies. The other strategy deals in reality.

    • rufus says:

      01:08pm | 15/03/11

      So, SSR, who is it that makes the statement that no Muslims are terrorists? Such a statement would not be correct in any sense, and I must say I’ve never heard it made before.

      What was it you said about obfuscation and falsehoods, now?

      Clearly, your version of ‘correctness’ never involves a political view. Instead, it’s always objective truth.

      Right.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      01:27pm | 15/03/11

      Yes, rufus, you are right. Finally we agree on something. I live in objective reality. Thank you. I knew we’d get there eventually.

    • rufus says:

      02:42pm | 15/03/11

      So SSR, when you can’t counter sarcasm, you pretend it doesn’t exist, and ignore the real point that was being made? And that’s an example of your ‘objective reality’?

      Like I said - right.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      03:08pm | 15/03/11

      Rufus, I chose to ignore your juvenile sarcasm just as you choose to ignore the sense in my post. I said it was politically correct to assume that no Muslims are terrorists, not that anyone made the statement. That is the beauty of political correctness, it creates rules that lead to misleading assumptions that lead to you sitting on a bus beside someone strapped with dynamite. I’d prefer to not be on that bus, which is why I base my assumptions on the facts, however un-PC that might be.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      06:10am | 15/03/11

      Up to the twentieth century, History has been largely written by the microorganism. Discuss.

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:32am | 15/03/11

      Please see above the result of high level of education available in Australia today.

      But you guys keep dribbling on about theology.

      I am sure that is more important.

    • TChong says:

      06:27am | 15/03/11

      Heaven and earth hath no fury like a god botherer being marginalised.
      Poor old Kev, a spruiker for invisible pals , superstition and magic, just cant stand the idea that all things good dont just occur because of his obsession with a blue eyed , blond haired palestinian , Mr JH Christ.
      Funny how believers in trhe “1 true god” ( arent they all? ) are so intolerant and jealous, just like their gods.

    • Empire says:

      12:32pm | 16/03/11

      But your post is so tolerant…
      It wouldn’t surprise me if some of the intolerant God botherers are actually non believers in disguise.(maybe)
      I notice the angry atheists didn’t reply to Aaron’s last post, obviously not nasty enough!
      I would like to take some time to thank all the Atheists and Believers who allow others to have differing opinions and treat everyone with tolerance and respect.
      And TChong I am so sorry for the horrible things that have been done to you in the name of religion, that have made you want to make fun of others. I don’‘t think you want to be intolerant like the religion that you ridicule with such glee.

    • True Believer says:

      12:42pm | 16/03/11

      @TChong

      Jesus was a Jew so hardly blue eyed and blond haired.

      Many may “believe” their “gods” are true, but only the Living God can be truly known,

      There is a difference.:0)

    • KH says:

      06:30am | 15/03/11

      What is wrong with ‘before common era’? Not everyone believes in your fairy tales.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:06am | 15/03/11

      Have the muslims changed *their* calendar? How come we, as a sop to their pressure, are now teaching our children this rubbish? Enough of this PC crap!

    • iansand says:

      08:17am | 15/03/11

      Christians, ironically with no knowledge of the history of this dating system, seem to have a strange idea that this somehow shows how entwined Christianity is with western history.

    • Brett says:

      01:37pm | 15/03/11

      BCE and CE are actually more correct and early on corrected some innacuracies in other calendars.

    • T Keenan says:

      07:26am | 16/03/11

      In university BCE and CE are common usage and expected of all students. Though, if you take history of religion, once you get up to Christianity (quite late in the history of known religions), you get to find out that there was no mention of Jesus at all until 40 years after his supposed death. There is actually no evidence of Jesus ever existing at all, he really is a creature of myth. But, anyway, the number of atheists in Australia is rising and the number of religious is falling. There is no need to get stressed about it, Christianity will soon be a minority belief that the current generation (those few young people that still believe it) will be emabarassed to admit they ever believed in.

    • True Believer says:

      12:52pm | 16/03/11

      @T Keenan

      “Christianity will soon be a minority belief that the current generation”

      I would not hold my breath on that one if I were you nor on any dramatic rise in atheism either. Figures do not support your assertion.

    • Common Sensor says:

      07:06am | 15/03/11

      History and Religion is always written by the best propaganderists.  Let’s have some common sense, ethics and critical thinking taught so kids can explore history themselves.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:15am | 15/03/11

      I whole-heartedly agree.

      Whilst its easy to knock the curriculum, and no matter what they decide thier will be plenty of knockers, I would be interested to see what others would like to see in the curriculum.

      Personally health and fitness, should be emphasised and taught in depth. Physical and mental health are the cornerstone of quality of life, and both lead to better learning environments for the individual as well.

      Maths and Science are must haves.

      English needs to be simplified earlier on. Learn to read and write. Learn to communicate effectively. Learn public speaking properly (more consistency). A greater focus on creativity, as opposed to regurgitating other works.

      I would love to see an ethics/philosophy class in high school.

      Most of all I would like to see a focus on critical thinking, problem solving, and interactive learning environments.

    • grumpy old man says:

      07:10am | 15/03/11

      the first job of schools is to teach the basics, the 3 ‘R’s “, after developing mastery of this, then it should be looking at subjects such as critical thinking, problem solving, and then history, geography, social studies, etc etc. At least then we will get some school leavers who can write legibly enough to express their thoughts,  do some basic math, and understand what they are reading. At the moment, they are incapable of performing any of these basics skills, but are very good at demanding their rights!.

    • Ras Putin says:

      03:10pm | 15/03/11

      How many school leavers do you know Grumpy ?  Having 2 adult sons, who went thru. the public school system,i know that they are far more ‘educated’ in most areas than people of my era.. One of them is a teacher who achieves excellent results with his students…Please do not generalise,as you can be quite wrong!!  Thankfully ,like most people today , they have not been brainwashed into believing in invisible fairies in the sky….

    • thatmosis says:

      07:10am | 15/03/11

      True Believer, what a load of rubbish. My creators were my mother and father and thats that. This belief in a higher being would be laughable if it wasnt so horrendous. Just have a look back over the centuries at those killed in the name of religion anf those still being killed in that name and try and tell a sane person that this is the way it should be. Clown.

    • Ripa says:

      07:25am | 15/03/11

      And just have a look at all the 100s of millions killed in the name of socialism and communism, dictators all who did not believe in anything but themselves.

    • Tedd says:

      08:13am | 15/03/11

      Marxism and communism were also doctrinal

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      10:26am | 15/03/11

      Ripa, and look at all the people transforming themselves into pink mist for Islam. Surely that deserves a bit of focus too. You know, because it happens every day and is all around us instead of consigned to a chapter in a history book.

    • Atheist67 says:

      12:06pm | 15/03/11

      And Hitler was a Catholic. Christopher Hitchens showed the evidence that Hitler believed and was supported by the Catholic Church. Further, Nazi officers wore belts with the german word for “god” written on them.

    • Chris L says:

      03:13pm | 15/03/11

      “Gott mit uns” Atheist. However I think it better to hold off invoking Godwin’s law until a religio spouts the trusty 20th Century tyrants and use the info to shoot them down. Otherwise you’re giving them a heads up.

      Don’t worry, someone will definately try it, they do every time there is a religious argument.

    • Another dave says:

      06:45pm | 15/03/11

      Ripa
      And just have a look at all the 100s of millions killed in the name of socialism and communism, dictators all who did not believe in anything but themselves
      Wrong again, but thanks for playing. Communism itself was an ideology full of “true believers”, it even had its own priesthood & inquisitors in the party members & comissars . It had its own dogma & punished anyone it considered heretics. So stop propagating the lie about it being an Atheist conspiracy. We simply aren’t that organised.

    • Dash says:

      07:34am | 15/03/11

      Julia Gillard described herself as something different from reality? Are we meant to act surprised about that? She said one thing and did another? Really? Shock horror!

      It’s a bit like the ALPs claim to economic conservatism before becoming the biggest spending government in our history.Or perhaps the claim to no carbon tax, making our groceries cheaper, making our fuel cheaper, making homes more affordable or providing cheaper better childcare.

      This federal ALP government has zero credibility left. No one believes a word they say and for good reason. They are out of touch with the wishes of the people. They are trying to railroad a carbon tax through parliament on the back of an election lie and now Comben has told us we need to be educated. So now the ALP intend to use taxpayers money to “educate” us on why we need this carbon tax. And perhaps why Middle Australia families need to pay for it whilst they redistribute income to ALP electorates!

      And you’re worried about the ALP not being honest when it comes to education?

    • acotrel says:

      09:46pm | 15/03/11

      @Dash And Tony Abbott is in touch with reality?  Are you kidding?  People in glass houses…..!

    • iansand says:

      07:38am | 15/03/11

      A school curriculum cannot include everything that every special interest group wants included.  At best, particularly in history, it can give a broad sweep and perhaps pique an interest and lead to further inquiry.  Of one thing I am sure, and that is that rote learning and concentration on incidents that seem to have no relevance to a student will never pique an interest.

    • Yak of the Goldfields says:

      10:55am | 15/03/11

      Agree iansand. This idea that we must be taught everything at school is nonsense. School is for the basics of living in this community we have created. Special interest subjects are for later reflection and investigation. No school teacher should force beliefs or doctrine on an innocent mind. Given the right tools, the student should be armed to venture into the world and make their own mind up about life, and death.

    • Carly says:

      08:54pm | 15/03/11

      Agreed Iansand and Yak of the Goldfields.

      In SA we now have a Research Project where students are allowed to choose their topics, so should they be interested in religion, this is an excellent way to learn!
      However many are NOT interested in religion and their choices should be respected.
      The curriculum is already overloaded with concerned parental groups calling for more. We already teach Health, formerly parents’ job. We already teach moral values and citizenship, again, formerly parents’ jobs. And now they’re calling for driving lessons to be mandatory in school? There isn’t enough time in the day!
      If you are honestly worried about your child’s progress, then talk to the school (or here’s a novel one- help your child out yourself!) Parents who read to their child at a young age help improve their literacy incredibly!

      Religion is a personal choice, and should not be forced on students. Any students who do choose to believe will have plenty of opportunities to find this learning on their own.

    • KDB says:

      07:46am | 15/03/11

      Kevin, you just successfully sold me the idea of the new curriculum.

    • Tubesteak says:

      07:50am | 15/03/11

      We are a part of Asia. Have a look at a map. Our economic future lies with Asia; not Europe that slaps tariffs on our exports or America. Asia is a much more fruitful market anyway.

      Teaching computing skills is vitally important to a person’s employment prospects.

      “Religion has no place in public schools. Just like facts have no place in an organised religion”

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      10:30am | 15/03/11

      Actually, I’d like to think that our future is the Pacific Rim. This would include NZ, Japan, New Guinea and the US.

    • Greg Byrne says:

      07:51am | 15/03/11

      The foregoing shows that education (so-called) should be completely private and that the academic credentials obtained by students should be allowed to stand on their merits. Maybe many people do value a “multicultural” or politically “correct approach”. I am sure many do. Others might value a more traditional approach. I think eventually market forces would determine which approach was more valued. That seems to me the only approach that is fair to everyone.

    • Knemon says:

      07:56am | 15/03/11

      Perhaps Mr Donnelly’s next step will be looking at setting up creationist schools like they have in the USA, schools where the teaching of evolution is banned from their curriculum, this is obviously what he would prefer, give me a break, please.

      Less than 10% of the Australian population actually go to church (of any denomination), so why should this rubbish (Christianity) be part of any schools curriculum?

      My disgust with Christianity (all religion in fact) stems from my time at school when they had ‘scripture’ classes, Catholics were sent to one room while the rest of us heathens could do as we pleased.

    • Elphaba says:

      08:01am | 15/03/11

      if you want your children to be taught Christianity, then send them to a school that displays clearly that it teaches it in the curriculum. 

      Looking at some of the resumes that have come across the desk where I work, I’d personally like to see a greater focus on correct sentence structure and spelling, as well as maths, and leave the spiritual stuff to outside of school, in the hands of the parents or a church.

      Honestly, some of the stuff that I’ve seen - it’s mind-boggling.  We read them, poke fun at them, and then bin them.  Kids, let this be a lesson - write a proper resume!!

      Meanwhile, I wouldn’t be listening to a damn thing Julia Gillard says.  I tried watching Q&A last night, but it made me so angry, I had to switch off.

    • Markus says:

      08:55am | 15/03/11

      English classes going back to actually teaching their namesake would definitely be a great start.
      I remember how embarrassing it was taking Spanish at uni, watching a teacher whose first language was Spanish, have to teach two thirds of the class basic English structures (passive sentences, indirect objects etc) in order to then teach them in Spanish.

      It’s all well and good analysing themes and symbolism, but when half the kids are unable to put their ideas on the themes into a coherent sentence, what’s the point?

    • Elphaba says:

      09:25am | 15/03/11

      @Markus, you make a good point - the most I ever learned about the English language (and I am very well read), was when I took Italian classes at uni.  Suddenly there were all these unfamiliar terms applying to different sentence structures - stuff we were never taught. It was invaluable.  I’ve forgotten a lot of the Italian, but not the various names of words and how we use them.

    • Markus says:

      10:33am | 15/03/11

      I think linguistics should be a major part of early English classes for that very reason.
      Not just because it is vital to understanding the structure and composition of English (similar to doing music theory as opposed to just being self-taught), but also works as a vital stepping stone into learning other languages if desired.

    • notSue says:

      10:43am | 15/03/11

      It’s called grammar syntax and , Elphaba, and the lack of its teaching has been recognised as major failing in recent years. Many students have had to learn the difference between an adverb and an adjective at university, rather than at primary school, as did my generation! Thank goodness many schools are rectifying this huge oversight in our children’s education.

    • Elphaba says:

      10:55am | 15/03/11

      @notSue, that’s great that it is being rectified in schools now, and yes, wilst I knew some of the basics (noun, adjective, verb, adverb), other ones were not learnt until uni when I started learning another language - and like Markus says, it was a great lesson in breaking down a language to learn it properly (like music), so I could write long essays in Italian about books we read and movies we watched.

      I think these things need to be focused on first.  From what I’ve seen, it’s never too late to become a born-again Christian - surely we should be arming kids with language and mathematics skills first so they can get good degrees and good jobs, and leave the spiritual stuff for later?

    • Elphaba says:

      10:58am | 15/03/11

      To quickly add to my last point, I have no objection to the teaching of religious theory and the different types of religions in school, I just think that if the choice is between teaching kids that according to someone’s opinion, you have to believe in Jesus, or teaching them grammar and syntax and maths, I know what I’d rather my kids were learning.

    • notSue says:

      11:27am | 15/03/11

      I love the analogy, Elphaba. How do you play your instrument as part of an orchestra if you can’t read the music? smile

      Personally, I believe religious education is best left to private schools which base their recruitment on it, (or out-of -hours classes.) I have no problem with (and would encourage) an objective, comparative study of the world’s religious traditions as part of sociological studies, but that usually occurs at tertiary level.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:38am | 15/03/11

      @notSue, agreed, there wasn’t much at school in terms of religious studies (but then again, I was publicly educated).  I think involving it at a secondary level is a good idea - nothing too in-depth, just an overview of the main religions and some of the minor onces, and a comparison with ancient religions should whet the appetite.

      As for the rest, like I said, if you want your kids to learn about Jeebus, send them to a private religious school, otherwise parents should take it upon themselves to deal with their child’s spirituality, in conjunction with their church if they attend one.

    • PolarBear says:

      08:07am | 15/03/11

      Just to clear up a misconception in the article about the use of BC and AD. This is not a politically correct movement - it’s an archaeological one. Archaeologists around the world use scientific principles and techniques to date finds - thus, the dates that they obtain through a variety of testing methods are always dated backwards from our common era. Consequently, the dates produced are BCE, or, Before Common Era. Forgive the curriculum writers for including conventions used in the real world, and not those used only by the Church.

    • Kika says:

      11:36am | 15/03/11

      Pffft. So why does the common era tend to coincidentally coincide with the traditional era known as ‘Anno Domini’ (year of our Lord)?

    • KH says:

      12:25pm | 15/03/11

      Kika - Because that is the current accepted method of assigning dates in most of the western world, no other reason.  Given that the west is largely responsible for colonising other parts of the world (the Americas, Australia, New Zealand and significant parts of Asia and Africa), it is not surprising that this coincidence exists.  Oh, and it might be ‘your’ lord, but it certainly isn’t mine…....nor a significant proportion of the earths’ population, for the record.

    • Kika says:

      01:15pm | 15/03/11

      KH I understand that. I am not daft. I was posing the question to PolarBear because their rationale behind using ‘Common Era’ was simply an archaelogical one.

      And ah no. The Lord is the same one for Christians, Jews and Muslims. That’s a significant portion of the world. And yes, it’s my Lord. We know who yours is, whether you accept it or not.

    • Zeta says:

      08:07am | 15/03/11

      Take your hand off it.

      Roman slaves built the world’s largest empire. Roman slavery is reflected in the very DNA of almost every European or Anglo-Saxon person on the face of the planet.

      Islamic slavery is a historical cul de sac, they were mostly eunuchs, forbidden to breed, the religious law on them was vague and Mohammed himself preached manumission. In the same way the Pax Romana deprived the empire of slavery and curtailed the practice, the Pax Islamica was longer, and more strictly enforced. No war meant no slaves.

      I’m not saying the curriculum isn’t complete rubbish - but you can illustrate that case better without resorting to such a ridiculous comparison.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:02am | 15/03/11

      If you had to teach 10 moments (for lack of better term, me fail english at skool) of history what would you bring up Zeta? I only ask because your knowledge of history seems vast.

    • undertow says:

      09:46am | 15/03/11

      Christians captured by Islamic corsairs on the Barbary Coast were often forced in to slavery (and visa versa). Those that didn’t succeed in drowning themselves were forced into slavery, unless they could convince their captors they were worth a ransom. There were far more slaves than just that. Muslims were taking African slaves long before any were taken to the Americas. The Zanj Rebellion was a slave uprising said to involve over 500,000 people enslaved by Muslims, both Islamic slaves and non-Islamic slaves.

      All Islamic slaves were either born into slavery or became slaves as a means of expiating their sins. This raises the question: How does a eunuch procreate?

      Mohammed may have preached manumission, but also advocated improving the lot of slaves. This had carry-on effect of legitimising slavery under Islam, (i.e. Improve the life of your slave and you are justified in keeping him and/or attaining more. If you feel guilt for your sins, free some slaves and absolve yourself.)

      I agree, the author could illustrate his case better without the slavery comparison (then again, I don’t know that he really has a case). However, Islamic slavery doesn’t really seem like the historical cul-de-sac it has been made out to be.

    • Zeta says:

      09:51am | 15/03/11

      @ Adam Diver - That’s the kind of excellent question I’d expect myself to ask.

      1. The Toba Eruption - 75,000 years ago the Toba volcano in Sumatra erupted in one of the largest volcanic events in the known history of Earth. It’s been theorised that it might have reduced the human population to as little as 1000 mating pairs. The Toba Eruption, almost unknown outside supervolcano science, raises issues of climate change, evolution, and the ramifications for human cultural development that I think should be taught to everyone. It might very well have been the reason Indigenous Australians first migrated here.

      2. The invention of the wheel. The invention of the f***ing wheel. How many year 12 students walk out the door knowing who, where, when and how that happened? It segues nicely into Ancient Civilisations which as it’s taught now is manifestly unsuitable. Students should learn about Sumer, Babylon and Akkadia before they learn about Egypt, Greece and Rome. Sumerians invented maths, astrology and cuneiform script. In comparison, at the point in history where students learn about Egypt and Rome, both civilisations were in decline. I don’t think the average Year 12 student could even point out Babylon on a map.

      4. The sacking of Rome in 410. The curriculum as I remember it conflated the first sacking of Rome by the Visigoths with the second sacking by Theodore The Great and his Ostrogoths while mentioning the Vandals in the same breath. Starting in 410, they should be taught the whole history of the Migration Period and the reasons for Hunnic expansion forcing the Goths into Roman territory. It’s vivid stuff, there are great Germanic poems about it, historical Roman documents, it’s an exciting, engaging period of history that is glossed over and taught at the end of a student’s education in ancient history as being the end of an Empire, when really, it’s the beginning of life as Anglo-Saxons know it. It raises discussion about multi-culturalism, migration, refugees - it’s topical stuff.

      5. Finally (I only have time for 5), I think we should teach students the history of economics, starting from the creation of the earliest bank, right through until today. Economics is the most important influence in their lives and yet it’s relegated to an elective subject for senior students. Starting in Persia in the 2nd century, through to the Crusades, the Renaissance, the American Civil War, to the 1980s and the Global Financial Crisis, Economic History should be a subject unto itself.

    • Kevin says:

      09:52am | 15/03/11

      Have you not heard of the Mamluks, their defeat of the Mongols and the Mamluk Sultanate?

    • Matt says:

      10:02am | 15/03/11

      Mmm indeed. The author’s objection to this fact is of course a catch 22 for the curriculum writers.

      If they included Muslim slavery, then the curriculum would be too focussed on Muslim history.  If they don’t include it, then we are ignoring the misdeeds of other cultures.

      When I went to school I never learned anything about the Muslim culture (10 years ago). I assume this is probably the same now, so why should Muslim slavery be any different?

    • Adam Diver says:

      10:13am | 15/03/11

      @ Zeta, love the reply, I shall now spend the rest of my day reading up on the Toba Eruption. Sorry boss, no work from me again smile

    • L. says:

      12:22pm | 15/03/11

      I would suggest No.6…


      The Magna Carta. The most important document ever written IMO.

    • Zeta says:

      12:40pm | 15/03/11

      @ L - See I’d dispute that. The Magna Carta is not a single document, it’s many, and it wasn’t ‘written’, that’s been mythologised. Much of it was plagerised directly from Henry I’s Charter of Liberties, the version forced upon King John was all but completely annuled at the Commons were never able to enforce it. The Magna Carta doesn’t actually guarantee any rights at all.

      If I had to pick the most important document signed in the history of the world (interestingly, no one ever signed the Magna Carta, although the myth claims the Barons did), it would be the Edict of Milan, which gave Roman citizens the right to be Christian.

      The Declaration of Independence was important, if only because it defines the last 100 years of history.

    • HappyCynic says:

      12:58pm | 15/03/11

      @L

      I’d expand on the Magna Carta bit by going into how it shaped the Westminster system, constitutional monarchies and more.

      7.  The invention of the Printing Press.  This one invention more than any other was what finally broke the grip of the Catholic Church in Europe and allowed the free exchange of ideas that brought about the Renaissance, the Reformation, Protestantism and more.  In fact the feeble, impotoent relic that’s left in the Vatican today is a direct consequence of the invention of the printing press.

      Hell as far as information revolutions go the printing press makes even the internet look lame by comparison.

    • Castro says:

      01:25pm | 15/03/11

      Zeta, I enjoy reading your comments but you have bitten off more than you can chew on this one.  Perhaps your loquaciousness has outpaced your erudition in this instance.  Your first two, the eruption of Toba and the invention of the wheel are not even history.  Neither of them are recorded in any written documents or even described in oral history.  You should know that this squarely places them in the realms of pre-history.  Teaching this to school students as history would be teaching them a poor lesson about the standards of proof required for rigorous historical enquiry. 

      Your suggestion about the fall of Rome is valid but then you suggest that we should look at the Dark Age migrations (Barbarian Invasions as they used to be called).  Again there is very little evidence to support the multiculturalism and immigration that you suggest was emblematic of that period.  Indeed, most archaeologists now doubt that the so-called Barbarian Invasions even happened.  May I suggest two accessible books that explain the above arguments, The Killing of History (yes I know, Windschuttle is controversial but this is an important book) and Britain AD.

      Your final suggestion, that economic history should be taught as a separate subject is fine but you ignore that this already happens.  It is called economics.

      In the interests of putting my money where my mouth is, here is my five essential history topics:

      1.  The Greco-Persian Wars:  Herodotus wrote the very first work of history ever to describe this war.  It is one of the most important texts ever written and the central question he aims to answer – why the west and the east hate each other – is still the most important geo-political question that can be asked.  And kids LOVE the Battle of Thermopylae.

      2.  The End of the Roman Republic and the founding of the Roman Empire:  As a study of the ancient world it is stunning in its familiarity.  Bitter politics, massive egos, even cross-dressing lefties and cruel cynical conservatives.  Students should not leave school without knowing a bit about Sulla, Caesar, Pompey, Marius, Cicero, Mark Antony, etc.

      3.  The Crusades:  It is true that our western society can be traced back to the Greeks and the Romans, but it only survived because it was kept alive in the Muslim world.  The Muslim world was the most advanced part of the world when it was attacked by violent Christian fundamentalists.  It took Baybars, a figure ignored to a large part in Western history, to respond in kind to end the constant Christian attacks on the cultivated east.  In doing so, he helped recreate the idea of fundamentalist Jihad that we still live on the shadow of.

      4.  The French Revolutionary Wars and Napoleonic Wars:  The birth of modern ideas of political freedom and individual rights.  Also ‘world wars’ of tremendous importance.  Here the British Empire needs to be discussed with the settlement of Australia mentioned.  Again, figures like Napoleon, Nelson, Wellington, Ney etc etc are key, but more importantly; they are fascinating.

      5.  Australia’s role in World Wars I and II:  I know it’s a cliché but that doesn’t mean it is wrong.  The young nation earned its identity the hard way on the blood soaked battlefields of Gallipoli and Flanders.  Australian kids education should not be complete until they know about the efforts of their ancestors; this is something to be proud of.  Often today, history is focused on making us guilty about our past; surely we can be proud of some things too.

      Sorry about the length of my essay, if anybody bothered to read this far!

    • Andrew says:

      01:53pm | 15/03/11

      Economic history? Really?

      No offense, but that sounds like an absolutely useless subject.

      Also, an overview of the history (and philosophy) of science should definitely be included in your list.

    • A Bob says:

      01:56pm | 15/03/11

      A list amidst the verbiage…

      8. A study of the Enlightenment. In particular split into 2 streams, the Skeptical Enlightenment and how it looked backwards towards the Christian era, and the Radical Enlightenment and how it looked forward to the secular era. Plus a discussion of how the two perspectives have panned out in modern times, particularly in respect to the crisis of the Western identity in the 20th century.

      Could end up a bit too analytical for high school, though, but I’s still like to see it touched upon.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      02:34pm | 15/03/11

      Some interesting points in History:
      1. Advent of agriculture and domestication of animals (in various parts of the world), leading to surplus production and specialization of professions.
      2. Battle of Teutonberger Wald. Limited Roman expansion into Germany.
      3. The Black Plague - depopulation of Europe, more emphasis on technology to replace manpower, weakening of Feudalism.
      4. Depopulation of the Americas and Australia through Smallpox and other diseases from which the indigenous population possessed little immunity.
      5. The invention of the internal combustion engine- liberated the potential energy of oil and led to a high energy consumption lifestyle of the west
      I like this game smile

    • Adam Diver says:

      02:47pm | 15/03/11

      Awesome thread guys, thanks for the response. I think you have provided the clause that needs to go into almost any curriculum, the teaching of history with historic sources (i.e. evidence).

      It seems our bloody and violent history makes record keeping somewhat problematic, and I deplore history in school (as I remember it) as a series of unsubstatiated “facts” regurgitated to the students. Its that type of education that leads the masses into being so culpable in terms of politics, media and business.

    • A Bob says:

      04:42pm | 15/03/11

      @Andrew

      Economic history useless? No way. A bit of knowledge on that score would help remove the partisan silliness that obscures current economic debate and could even help avert another GFC. (OK, that’s going a bit far…)

      Getting people to understand that the ‘economic cycle’ is not some natural thing like the seasons but a human made phenomenon that doesn’t have to happen would be a great start. Even watching the BBC series taken from JKG’s book, “The Age of Uncertainty” would be a start.

      History can be cool, it just has to be taught by interested teachers. Unfortunately they are few and far between and end up having the enthusiasm knocked out of them before too long.

    • mike j says:

      07:28pm | 15/03/11

      Some interesting historical references. Much as I love history, and concur that the study of historical precedent is of the utmost importance, let’s not lose sight of balance and practicality. Any Australian curriculum should rightly focus on real Australian issues, and answer some of our more fundamental regional questions.

      With that in mind, I believe omission of the following units would be an oversight:

      History: The wedding of Scott Robinson and Charlene Mitchell

      Geography: Why bogans congregate in the West

      Physical Education: How Queenslanders are demonstrably superior at sports

      Gender Studies: Why women should get paid the same for working less

      Automotive: Why an inefficient exhaust system means you’re cool and you have an awesome ute/chopper

      Chemistry: Drugs are bad, m’kay?

      Psychology: Why you like your tattoos and circumcision

      Legal Studies: How to turn from slut to victim in one easy step

      Music: Why you shouldn’t feel bad about stealing it

      English: The correlation between socio-economic status and use of the words ‘arks’, ‘librie’, ‘aluminum’, ‘like’, ‘gunna’, ‘ay?’, ‘lookatmoi’, ‘nucular’, excetra, excetra, excetra.

    • James In Footscray says:

      08:19am | 15/03/11

      Sure, students need to understand the importance of the Christian Church in European and Australian history. But is Kevin suggesting that Western culture comes from Christianity? Classical Greece, for example, was so much more important in the development of Western science, literature, philosophy and governance. And progress over the last thousand years has often come from battles with the Church.

    • Kanook says:

      08:20am | 15/03/11

      The education system should never ever teach anything to children as Truth unless it can be verified, Christianity is not verifiable and in fact the only resource for Christianity, The Bible, is nothing more than a collection of stories stuck together that contradict each other and have no basis in actual history.The only way Christianity should be taught at school must be as an example of Fiction and the effects this fiction has had on people in recent history.

      Children should be taught about the incredible dangers of religion, its affect on people, and how Christianity is nothing more than a poorly constructed piece of drivel that was designed to instil fear into those who knew no better 1500 years ago.

      In fact if the Bible was written today then its writers would be in court like a flash facing PLAGIARISM Charges! It is nothing more than a copy of older stories from around the Mediterranean, the important dates of Christianity are merely existing dates important at that time to Pagan groups.

      So should Christianity be taught in school? Yes, but it should be treated as fiction and nothing more.

    • annoyed scholar says:

      11:14am | 15/03/11

      @Kanook
      I am curious as to how you would back up your claims. As someone who has studied Education (I have a PhD in Education), Science and Theology, I can assure you that there has never been a single verifiable find that actually contradicts the Bible. As far as verifiable religious text goes, it is the only one that offers genuine historical data that have been proven over literally centuries of resarch to be historically accurate and verifiable. There is far too much inaccurate hyperbole spruiked about the Bible and Christianity by people who have never studied either, expressing their own partially informed opinions as fact.

    • Chris L says:

      05:00pm | 15/03/11

      @Annoyed Scholar - how about the discovery that tides are caused by the gravity of the moon rather than by the will of any particular god. Or that diseases are caused by micro-organisms rather than demons? Or were you looking for archeological contradictions such as the lack of any census requiring people to return to their town of birth?

    • annoyed scholar says:

      01:38am | 16/03/11

      @ Chris L - I am unfamiliar with any passage in the Bible where diseases that can be clearly identified as microbial in nature are described as demon-caused. Similarly with the tidal actions, the overaching theme of the Bible is that God created a world that follows rules - such as the moon influencing tides and suchlike. As regards the census, there is a very important rule of research, specifically historical research that says ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’. Simply because no evidence has been yet found of such a census is not proof that it never happened. My point was that genuine archaelogical finds have never disproved the Bible’s record of history.

    • BBB says:

      04:32pm | 16/03/11

      Annoyed scholar, if you contend that god created a world that follows rules, are you meaning to suggest that god’s rules are such that when one of his creations (techtonic plates) happen to interact that some of his other creations (humans) will be killed?  For an all powerful and supposedly all loving being this is astonishingly short sighted.  To put it in more modern terms, god’s design was clearly negligent.  Silly god.  I hope he (or she) has good insurance.

    • Kerryn says:

      08:22am | 15/03/11

      As a Catholic who went to Church on Saturday night, and who believes in God:

      If you want to learn about any sort of religion, go to a religious school.  If not, don’t.

      The only reason religion should come up in non-religious schools is when they are referred to in year 10 History class.

    • Rachael says:

      10:26am | 15/03/11

      I agree.  My kids go to a religious school and are better for it.  You can easily pick the difference between the kids who haven’t had a religious education and the public school kids.  Having gone to a public school, and then making the decision to put my children in a religious school, I see the difference in the type of teachers, the community spirit, the focus on charity to others, kindness as well as being taught to do well in life. No comparison .. I almost pity the public school kids who have are not given the same opportunity to learn about these important values.  Thank god for religious schools.

    • Horse says:

      11:14am | 15/03/11

      Rachel, our child goes to a public school where the biggest dysfunction is from the religious families at the school, mostly the Christian ones.  They manipulate, misbehave, and form cliques - the kids and the parents.  Our child appreciated general religious education, but enjoys a more diverse kinder social network than cliques provide.

    • Rachael says:

      03:53pm | 15/03/11

      Horse… as I said, thank goodness for religious schools. I am simply saying that I’m sending my children to religious school for certain reaons. The children are lovely, respectful… I could go on and on. That’s my experience.  My experience as a religious person attending a public school was a shocker. I saw and heard the lies, the lack of ethics, cheating, lack of respect… not good.  Very happy where we are thank you, and not a chance in the world of wanting to move to the public system.

    • Maria says:

      09:12pm | 15/03/11

      @ Rachel

      Well, that’s great for your kid, if it’s true, and I highly doubt it is. No school is completely without the “mean” kids, no school is completely without the selfish individuals. And even if yours miraculously is, that doesn’t mean that religion is the catalyst nor that other religious schools are the same.

      As a student teacher I taught at a religious school and found it to have far less compassion and understanding that my current public school.
      I felt like I was in a tv soap when a girl slyly came up to me and said “Now Ms, if you’re nice to us, then we’ll be nice to you. But if you’re not nice to us… then we won’t be nice to you.” While many students were quite nice, none of them had any understanding or attempted to see how others around the world lived, and some were downright sly and malicious.

      This does not mean religious schools automatically produce horrible people, but it does mean a) you’re seeing your local school with rose coloured glasses, b) you’ve never set foot in more than one public school or c) coming to that conclusion based on your evidence is flawed at best. (Or D, all of the above).

    • Rachael says:

      09:57pm | 17/03/11

      Hey Maria… of course no school is without the “mean” kids.  And, I’ve been to many public schools…  hummm .. so, well… my conclusion - I’m blessed, and so lucky.  It does happen.

    • Karen says:

      08:23am | 15/03/11

      I believe in the three ‘R’s with an extra helping of being taught the benefits of putting in a hard day’s work - oh and a healthy dose of the advantages of a good diet and exercise.

      Once kids can learn these skills then develop their problem solving and critical thinking abilities then you can’t help but be onto something for they’ll go off and explore the world and make their own minds up….  Isn’t that what life is all about?

    • AdamC says:

      08:27am | 15/03/11

      When did it become political (right wing political in particular) to see education as being predominantly about educating people? While Donnelly belabours the point a little here, it is clear that the ‘education’ establishment has slowly been forced to water down some of the more political and social engineering-driven aspects of the curriculum.

      In my view, the question that should be asked when considering the inclusion or exclusion of any particular subject area in a curriculum framework is: will the inclusion of this assist in educating students? It seems pretty straightforward to me. And, when it comes to history, a simple test like that would serve to exclude both black armband propaganda and pioneer cheerleading.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      08:35am | 15/03/11

      Seems to me that poor old Kevin’s living somewhere BCE, what with all this twaddle about “Judeo-Christian” and “Anglo-Celtic” heritage.  When I went to school we were taught that Australia was an Antipodean outpost of the recently fallen British Empire and that Aborigines were ‘stone-age’ relics.

      Australia and the world have changed in the intervening half century, and from the sound of it the new curriculum reflects those changes.  Kevin Donnelly is in dire danger of being perceived as a relic of Australia’s educational ‘stone age’.

    • True Believer says:

      08:38am | 15/03/11

      @thatmosis

      I am not interested in “religion” that is man-made in the main. I know my and your Creator. You choose to ignore Him. Your God-given choice, but it makes no difference to the fact He is there, He made you, He loves you, His “Son Jesus died for you.  I would rather be a “clown” as you put it and know Jesus, than be a bigger clown by denying Him.

    • Carly says:

      12:34pm | 15/03/11

      lmao…well you got one thing right in all that…you are definitely a clown!

      I just finished speaking to jeebus and he said you got it all wrong champ…might want to revise your life mate! He told me you really need to stop spreading your own personal lies in his name…he said to tell you that you must love ALL your neighbours…you are NOT allowed to pick and choose! Also, you are NOT allowed to judge, only the big guy is allowed that honour…so yeah…back in your box hypocrite!

    • Brendo says:

      01:28pm | 15/03/11

      I think we all agreed on one thing.  You’re a clown smile

    • True Believer says:

      02:11pm | 16/03/11

      @thatmosis

      Well God said “the fool says in his heart there is no God” - clowns generally play the fool.  God said it, not me.

    • True Believer says:

      02:11pm | 16/03/11

      @thatmosis

      Well God said “the fool says in his heart there is no God” - clowns generally play the fool.  God said it, not me.

    • P. Darvio says:

      08:41am | 15/03/11

      Quote: The history curriculum provides a clear example of this unwillingness to acknowledge the grand narrative associated with the rise of Western civilisation and the importance of Christianity

      M’mmm lets see

      There seems to be some deluded revisionist belief by Christians that they are responsible for Democracy and the “rise of Western civilisation” – this is utter rubbish. Christianity throughout its history has done everything to destroy it. History shows this.

      Christian Missionaries - lets look at the History of that. Some claim that Christian missionaries created and spread democracy!! - what a load of rubbish. Wherever Christian Missionaries have gone they have destroyed the local indigenous culture, including in this Country. There are no democratic principles in the Bible (or any other religious text for that matter). The religious texts of the 3 Abrahamic faiths are evil, violent books that promote abuse, rape, murder, torture and mass genocide and the death of anyone who opposes their views.

      Hitler – who was a Christian (also confirmed by Albert Speer his closest friend) and the fact that Hitler was helped into power by the Christian Church with its Concordant deal with Hitler in 1933. Even that Christian Historian like Alan Bullock (often quoted by some in these blogs….)

      “….changed his mind about Hitler. His later works show Hitler as much more of an ideologue, who pursued the ideas expressed in Mein Kampf (and elsewhere) despite their consequences. This has become a widely accepted view of Hitler, particularly in relation to the Holocaust”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Bullock

      And what did Hitler say in Mein Kampf about his Christianity?

      “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”  –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf).

      Christianity almost destroyed democracy in Europe through its Christian Hitler and Christianity’s complicit role in the Holocaust and indeed the War.

      The Christian Bible has no Age of Consent. In Christian dominated Countries / States like the Vatican, Italy, Mexico, Brazil, Philippines the Age of Consent is as low as 12 and 13. (Why does the Vatican State need an age of Consent when they are all Virgins and none one there has sex….?) Thankfully in secular Australia we have truly secular democratic principles with a sensible Age of Consent rather than some disgusting Child Sex Age of Consent based on “Christian Principles” that is allowing Child Sex around the World. No wonder there are so many problems with Christian Priests raping Children.

      There are no ethics or morals in any religion. Yes democracy in the West is alive and mostly well – but that fact has absolutely nothing to do with any religion including Christianity. One only has to look at what is happing in the Arab World – would these people really be clamouring after so-called “Christian Democracy” – I don’t think so – because it doesn’t exist.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:37am | 15/03/11

      Worked Mein Kampf in seamlessly. Kids should study you.

    • allan says:

      08:49am | 15/03/11

      Religion has no place in schools, it is completely subjective dependind on the faith. Some still hate gays and some embrace them as an example. If we want to teach our children the right way to behave then we should teach them ethic’s and dump religious classes from schools

    • toast says:

      08:52am | 15/03/11

      Public or private education for my daughter?? We cannot find a private school in our area without religious affiliations. Having a private education myself I would prefer it for my daughter but I don’t won’t christian or catholic beliefs (or any religion for that matter) to cloud my daughters view of the world.  It certainly clouded mine until I was old enough to realise choosing not to believe did not make me evil it made me less small minded.

      People should be free to choose not forced to consider. In my opinion religion and education should not mix, especially in a modern multicultural society. Lets teach our children to read , write and add then thay can make their own minds about what they believe in when they’re mature enough to decide.

      At the end of the day I may even consider a Steiner school.

    • Dave Sag says:

      09:35am | 15/03/11

      Don’t be afraid to send your kids to a religious school, it will give them something fairly benign to rebel against in their teens.  Most Aussie kids believe in Santa when they are little, but as they get older they come to realise it’s all just a lie.  This is a good thing as kids need to learn to question authority, and that people, especially adults, will lie for pretty much no good reason.  This learning continues as kids mature and realise that, not only are there competing religions to the one they have been taught about, but, ultimately, all religions are simply made up by our primitive ancestors to explain things they simply had no clue about back then, and to attempt to influence their own prosperity, praying for rain, burning witches, sacrificing their first born for bounteous crops etc.

      On the question of teaching history I must admit I never studied much history other than white-settlement of Australia and some stuff about the Greeks and the Roman empire (I went to an Anglican school). We did no US history, very little modern European history (I learned that from watching the mini-series, The World at War and Holocaust on TV) and nothing at all about the history of our Asian neighbours.

      Since leaving school I have read a lot of books on history (and on historicism) and have broadened my education considerably.  I was lucky to have a love of reading and a love of learning instilled into me by my parents, one of whom is very religious and one whom (I suspect) goes along with it all to keep the peace.  Despite some pressure to believe as I was growing up I was far too interested in science, maths, and in questioning the world around me, and had exposed myself to a wide range of ideas from books, to be able to be convinced that any one religion could be based in truth.

      So don’t be afraid that sending your kid to a religious school will confuse them or indoctrinate them; it’s just going to give them something else to question, and help them grow up to read the world around them with a more critical eye.

    • Yak of the Goldfields says:

      12:20pm | 15/03/11

      I wouldn’t worry about it too much Toast, we sent our boys to a Catholic school in our area because it was the best for them in our area. Being Autistic, our oldest got very good assistance with school work but his analytical mind just couldn’t accept their religious teachings. This led to a few letters home about his “fitting in” with the curriculum.
      Let your children experience everything they can, with you as a sounding board and mediator. Let kids know that they don’t have to believe everything a teacher tells them. Give them the power to question and determine for themselves what is true; to themselves.

      One of the first lectures I had at Uni was from a Geologist who told us how big the Universe was. He lost me right there. Didn’t believe much he said after that effort.

    • bella starkey says:

      12:55pm | 15/03/11

      I went to a fairly liberal Catholic school and I’m glad of it. In younger years they teach some biblical stuff but not a huge amount but once you reach year 9 they start to focus on a wider range of theological teachings. Most of the teachers aren’t actually Catholic, including the religious education ones and if you choose one that has Studies of Religion rather than christian or catholic studies as thier senior school compulsory subject you get a very well rounded class in what is essentially a humanities subject.

      There was no prayer forced down peoples throat and the once a term mass was more for sleeping than praying.

    • bella starkey says:

      01:21pm | 15/03/11

      @ Yak of the Goldfields:
      as douglas adams said “Space is big. You just won’t believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space.”

    • John Oh says:

      08:53am | 15/03/11

      The examples Julia has shown, in her promise of “No CARBON TAX” is truly one on an unethical politician. What other things has she failed to tell us?
      The science is NOT settled according to Al Gore’s mentor, to which Al responded his old prefessor as a senile old man. Seem like the lie has travelled around the world before the truth had got its pants on once again. The problem is the WW economists are running with it, thru thick and thin. I reckon it may have somethingto do with the world economy and USA becoming a second class power…

    • Cybacat says:

      08:56am | 15/03/11

      Great article!  The selective teaching of Australian history to please the PC and hater brigades is dishonest and producing poor results with education.  The decision to ignore the massive influence Christianity played and plays in shaping our free, tolerant, peaceful and prosperous country is also disappointing.  It’s the failure to acknowledge this fact that leads to apathy, disrespect, abandonment and ultimately produces some of the I’ll-informed haters posting here today.  Australias going backwards - not forwards - specifically due to this.

    • rufus says:

      10:05am | 15/03/11

      If you want people to be taught about how great christianity is, encourage them to go to church and scripture classes. Religious conversion and proselytising isn’t the purpose of the general school curriculum.

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:37pm | 15/03/11

      By all means teach the good things about Christianity, but teach the bad things too.

      Christian history is as bloody and violent as any other part of history, just ask the Jews.  Ignoring the facts because you don’t like them is equivalent to propoganda

    • Chris says:

      08:59am | 15/03/11

      I do not go to church but I am thoroughly fed up with the PC nonsense which says we have to ignore our history and cultural traditions and the very foundations on which our society is built just in order to placate people who seem to think they can ignore the past, discard any reference to it and still understand the future.

    • Tedd says:

      09:40am | 15/03/11

      Who’s ignoring the past? 

      Not wanting to focus on a slanted view of it is not ignoring it.

    • fml says:

      01:37pm | 15/03/11

      Problem is as Chris, what tedd says is correct, but this works both ways.

      Some may say incorporating islamic slavery shows balance, what about the balance of how the muslims brought science and medicine to europe through north africa and spain. And that greek and roman philosophy and technology was kept alive and advanced by the islamists? The work of avicenna whose treatises on medicine was used all the way up to the 17th century, the works of hafiz which prompted goethe to say “If i were but half of one of hafiz’s fingers i would consider my self a success”.
      The persian sacking of athens after the battle of thermopylae is conveniently forgotten and all that is remembered is the 300 hundred spartans, not the use of the 500 slaves they used.. The work of omar khayyam and his poetry, and mathematics which helped create the modern calendar.

      The Cyrus cylinder which is considered the first human rights treatise (Yes i know they were technically Zoroastrian).

      And all this which helped medieval europe climb out of the dark ages.

      theres alot to history and not all can be taught.

    • Olive says:

      09:02am | 15/03/11

      I don’t think there is any place for religion in the general curriculum. If you want your children to be taught about it take them to church were it belongs.
      If Christianity was in the curriculum then it would have to be as “factual” content, not belief driven.
      I’m not sure that teaching children that many of our ancestors that settled this country believed in a sky dwelling giant that created the earth and we must all do his bidding is exactly what you are looking for. We could also teach them that in spite of mountains of scientific proof to the contary some people still believe that children should be taught this as part of their education. Perhaps we could use this article as a case study for them? Present the facts and ask them what they think?

    • Zaf says:

      09:31am | 15/03/11

      The author is crying over spilt milk.  Move on, man, move on!

    • skepdad says:

      09:33am | 15/03/11

      Why does the Punch give space to this sort of irrational nonsense? Mr Donnelly believes his imaginary friend is not being properly indoctrinated into the minds of children at school, does he?

      Religion is an important subject, yes - it is vital that children understand that all over the world there are many different religious beliefs and that much of the hate and intolerance in the world comes from them. Dealing with bible thumpers of Donnelly’s ilk is an important life skill.  However, sending kids at state schools home with happy clappy christian songs in their heads is an abomination unto our supposedly secular society.

      Columns like this should be read for what they are - the last breathless gasps of a dying delusion.  Watch this poor girl, probably indoctrinated in the hate cult from birth, if you still have any doubt about the value of the good word: http://goo.gl/HJWnH

    • xavierc says:

      09:39am | 15/03/11

      “[...]where the history document is happy to refer to slavery during the Roman empire and to the European trans-Atlantic slave trade but, no mention is made of slavery under Islam.” - They also don’t mention the use of slaves from the South Pacific in the Queensland sugar industry between 1863 and 1904 either. But I’m sure you’re okay with leaving that out because it’s painting “our Judeo-Christian heritage” in a bad light, right?

      You are objecting to rational, contextual views of history because it conflicts with the outdated and often factually inaccurate notions of the “grand narrative” approach. Secular, objective history disciplines encourage a critical analysis of history providing a more conversive rather than authoritative approach.

    • Evan Williams says:

      09:43am | 15/03/11

      If you can honestly diss learning about Australia’s 40,000 years of indigenous history as politically correct, you’ve gone troppo.

    • Max Redlands says:

      09:47am | 15/03/11

      I find most of these comments unbelievable and they seem to illustrate the authors point…no one is suggesting “teaching” christianity and that is a distortion (either wilfull or through ignorance) of the argument. A lot of the comments would indicate that the writers haven’t studied much history. I mean CJ Morgans’ comment that the Judeo - Christian heritage is “twaddle” beggars belief. While the classical influence is undeniable the all pervavsive influence of the Christian church over law, politics, economics and education (including science) from the fall of the roman empire up to and including the present day (for good or ill) is a matter of historical fact. You may disagree with, denounce or dislike religion generally or Christianity in particular but to deny chrisitianity’s place in history is myopic at best and I say this as an atheist.

    • TracyH says:

      10:25am | 15/03/11

      So glad you did…saved me writing it! I’m atheist too, and I’m glad to see someone else noticed the author’s intent was not to push Christianity. I read it as an attempt to reclaim some sort of cultural heritage that we’ve been quietly dismantling.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      11:58am | 15/03/11

      Max, you need to go back to school and learn English comprehension.  I said that Donnelly’s piece is twaddle, not that part of Australia’s heritage that is “Judeo-Christian”.  That religious tradition has certainly played a major role in Australian and World history, but it is now in decline - some would say fortunately.

      It certainly has its place in a history curriculum - warts and all - but not to the exclusion of other important influences.  Donnelly’s twaddle about “Anglo-Celtic” heritage also has its place in a history curriculum, presumably along with discussions of outmoded racist ideologies and the White Australia Policy.

    • skepdad says:

      12:29pm | 15/03/11

      “When Christianity is mentioned it is usually in the context of other religions (Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Islam) and there is no attempt to detail the historical and cultural significance of Christianity.”

      The author is not asking for fair treatment for christianity - for that is exactly what it is getting according to this quote.  Donnelly wants christianity to be given special reverence and detail over other people’s religions.

      “Christianity is included, but the stated aims, that students should learn about ‘the dominance of the Catholic Church ...  and the nature and power of the Church in this period’, indicate that students will be left with a less than favourable impression.”

      Again, he laments that students may learn the historical truth, rather than accept without question the moral superiority he, the chaplains and the stealth indoctrinators would have our children assign to, and only to, the christian faith during their state education.

    • notSue says:

      01:03pm | 15/03/11

      I agree Max, that you have correctly identified the author’s intention. however, I detect a subtext to his argument viz: “a commitment to Christian beliefs and values”. 

      I agree with the thrust of the article, the current curriculum is far too PC and lacks intellectual rigour) however I disagree with the emphasis he places on the teaching of Christianity’s importance in history. History is sadly neglected subject in general, as many have also noted, however it is true that all histories, apart from purely factual, event-based regurgitations (ie Magna Carta -1215) contain interpretations of those events, even back to the Greeks and Romans.  In fact, Herodotus has been called both “the father of history” and ‘the father of lies’, depending upon which interpretation of HIM you read!
      That said, I take issue with the idea that’ Donnelly’s emphasis on teaching our Anglo -Celtic heritage is ‘twaddle”. It most certainly is not.  Our culture IS based on the model we inherited from them. That is historical fact. It is NOt based on aboriginal tribal culture,nor have other cultures had such a lasting impact,  and that is also a fact. However, I do believe that not learning about our own indigenous people’s culture has been a huge mistake also, in our past. That does not mean, however, we should abandon learning about our roots as the foundation of our culture. We do so to the detriment of our understanding of how we reached this juncture…and that surely, is the point of history!

    • Caroline says:

      09:49am | 15/03/11

      “The history curriculum provides a clear example of this unwillingness to acknowledge the grand narrative associated with the rise of Western civilisation and the importance of Christianity.”

      Oh, Kevin. Really? It seems that perhaps the Christian education you received has left you sorely lacking in an accurate knowledge of history. And I don’t even want to imagine what your idea of Christian science class would entail…

    • Jenny Baker says:

      09:51am | 15/03/11

      why are we so surprised that our government has taken this stand to exclude Christianity from the curriculum after all our prime minister who funnily enough was not really elected to the position does not believe in God. We have a rich heritage of Christianity, our justice system and our compassion and general way of life has been formed by this heritage. We have a duty to take a stand and turn this around, don’t let them take God out of our children’s lives,they are rewriting the history books to accomplish this. Use the power of your vote to put a stop to the destruction of our society!!!!!!!!!

    • Andrew says:

      10:27am | 15/03/11

      Our justice system was based on Christianity?!  Oh really?  Well that *does* explain all the stonings I see going on in the streets, I guess..  Oh hang on, there’s no stonings!  I think you accidentally wrote “Christian” when you meant “Greek and Roman”, since their (very ancient, pre-Christian) justice systems resemble ours much, much more closely than the “Christian” system, which basically involved going to a priest and having him assign guilt or innocence, as well as the sentence.

      In fact, amost exactly like their system of government, a theocracy with a supreme (religious) leader deciding on all matters.  Exactly like ours, right?  Oh, hang on, I’m wrong again - ours is based on public representation, voting, and democracy, principle founded by - WOW, who would have guessed it - the Greeks and Romans again!

      And let’s not even get started on compassion.  Spanish inquisition, Crusades, burning of ‘witches’, the list of christian ‘compassion’ truly is endless.  But I guess in your twisted view of the world, torture and death is a better fate for these people than not believing?

      I’m very happy for religious history to be taught in schools - the REAL history of religion, not the feel good, everybody’s happy, ridiculous lie that ‘true believers’ would like to believe so they can sleep at night.  Religion is just another way of controlling people, always has been and always will be.  “Do as we say or you’ll go to hell”, “Give us money so we can save your ‘eternal souls’”, sound familiar?  Religion is evil, wasteful, and stupid, that’s what we should be teaching our children.

    • Joshua says:

      09:51am | 15/03/11

      Whether or not one believes in the principles and morality of Christianity, in this case, doesn’t really seem to be the problem. The problem is that it is unprofessional, unacademic and unhistorical not to admit the ideologies which have shaped our national history and identity. Christianity has had a decisive role in shaping who we are and how we see the world and it would be strangely narrow minded of us not to admit this. The curriculum should acknowledge all key influences Australians have laboured under whilst building our nation…that is only fair and reasonable.

    • Bev says:

      10:59am | 15/03/11

      Have to agree with your comment.  Many here are using this article to attack cristianity without accepting the fact that our civilization is an outcome of living in a culture in wnich much our law, ethics and morality derive from christian anglo saxon past. On another note the subject of slavery seems to have raised it head.  Fact most civilizations in the past have had slave cultures.  However it was the english who outlawed and supressed the slave trade in the first place.  Interesting a little known fact is that arab raids to the south part of england (in the years before 1600) captured and sold into slavery 1 million english men, women and children.  Even today slavery still exists in some muslim countries. However it would seem we only want to talk about Slavery in Western civilization.

    • martin says:

      09:52am | 15/03/11

      What if you don’t like political correctness or Christianity? I think you’ll find that’s where most Australians stand.

      I agree there needs to be more morality in the world and more discipline in schools and less kow towing to non whites. But the pretend friend idea ain’t gonna work.

    • jeffb says:

      09:55am | 15/03/11

      Nothing is stopping you from giving your kids a religious brain-washing at sunday school Kevin. There is no place for one single religion in the general curriculum, there may some value to the study of all religions and how they interact though.

      You really have to wonder what planet people are from when they claim the core values of Australians are built upon Christian ideals, if you actually stopped letting some preacher tell you what to think you would realise these values are found in practically every single country in the world regardless of their traditional religion.

      Our children need to learn ethics, conflict resolution, social interaction, etc without resorting to whispering prayers to an imaginary man that lives in a cloud and grants magic wishes.

    • Sheridan says:

      10:52am | 15/03/11

      Actually what they need to learn is how to read, write, do simple arithmatic and stuff like that.. Conflict resolution and social interaction are discipline issues - mostly because parents charge up to the schools to defend their little shits because they see hitting someone as doing nothing wrong!! Ethics and stuff should be taught at home and if they’re not then it’s down to the parents..

    • Leah says:

      10:55am | 15/03/11

      jeffb, I think you’ve missed the point of Kevin’s column. He’s not saying the curriculum should *teach* Christianity, just the role Christianity has played in our country’s history. I’d think it fair enough that a country like Egypt or Saudi Arabia teaches their children the role Islam has played in their country’s history, or that China teaches the role Confucius played in its history, or that India teaches the role Hinduism played in its history. Like it or not, Christianity has played a large role in the history of countries like Australia and neglecting to teach those aspects of our history leaves a gap in children’s education.

      It’s like how US history classes teach about the KKK - they are not teaching or advocating the KKK itself, just its role in the country’s history. There’s a big difference.

    • jeffb says:

      11:08am | 15/03/11

      Sure, reading, writing, and arithmetic will always be at the foundation of a good education system, it also need to teach practical skills though in order for people to have a sense of how our modern complex society works. Parents will always have a significant role in their children’s education too.

      The trials of ethics classes so far have been very positive with the only negative being brought up by some religious circles that by tradition they have a monopoly on ethics.

    • jeffb says:

      11:12am | 15/03/11

      Leah, what role has Christianity played in Australia? Apart from the stolen generation they have had virtually no impact at all. Australian’s have always traditional considered religion as a private matter not a tool to shape Australia.

      Perhaps you could educate me on the issues in Australia’s history were Christianity has played a significant role?

    • dvine says:

      10:00am | 15/03/11

      How long are we prepared to stand by and let our way of life get flushed down the toilet by the legal and law-making fraternity who’ve backed us so tightly into a corner that it’s becoming more and more illegal to stand against the liers and those who would tear down our wonderful heritage that has existed for thousands of years?
      Wake up people, there’s an agenda being worked on in this country, and it’s end result will be catastrophic.
      This goes way beyond some juvenile I-don’t-want-to-hear-about-God-anymore argument. There’s a radically different and terrifying change on the horizon, and if and when it’s allowed to happen no one will be better off.

    • jeffb says:

      10:59am | 15/03/11

      So now Australia is thousands of years old?

      Perhaps if you spent less time coming up with crazy conspiracy theories you would know when Australia was founded.

      No one is ever going to stop you from practising your personal religion, its your choice. Your choice on the other hand should not be forced on other people through the public education system. There is no way you can justify it, trying to stop the improvement of our education system because it doesn’t fit your personal views are just plain selfish, delusional stupidity.

    • Kika says:

      11:47am | 15/03/11

      Hey Divine, we know the reality of it. I think Christians have always been persecututed in one way or other for their belief. We know the reason why. We know who leads them. That’s their choice. If they have heard about Jesus and refuse to accept him, that’s their choice.

      Here’s irony for you. Is there a parralel as to why there is a BOOMING market for ‘alternative’ therapies, tarot readers, psychics, astrology, reiki, Chinese medicine, Buddhism, Yoga, obsession with celebrity, football teams, football players,  TV shows about Ghost Whispering and movies about exorcisms? People are starved for something bigger than themselves and go looking for that in other ways.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:23pm | 15/03/11

      “I think Christians have always been persecututed in one way or other for their belief.”

      @Kika, erm… no.  Sorry.  Christians did a hell of a lot of persecuting themselves.

      That’s the problem with think.  ‘Think’ - but clearly do not know.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      02:57pm | 15/03/11

      @Kika

      “People are starved for something bigger than themselves and go looking for that in other ways.”

      Is precisely the reason your “something bigger than yourself” was created in the first place. Your “something bigger than yourself” is a reflection of the human desire for something bigger rather than its cause.

    • Another Dave says:

      06:26pm | 15/03/11

      Kika
      With Christians making up over 60% of the population, who exactly is persecuting you?? For that matter, when have christians ever been persecuted in any western country? Your whole persecution complex has been carefully crafted by the various churches as a means of mind control, no different from the cults which pop up with boring monotony. The major difference between a cult leader like “Little Pebble”  and the Pope is thesize of their following. And before you say it, No, the Devil didn’t have anything to do with this post. he is a myth as well.

    • Oxnard says:

      10:07am | 15/03/11

      Education may be substandard, but it appears all your article is interested in is the fact that JC doesn’t get much of a mention. If parents want there kids learning christianity then they can send them to a private religious school with religion classes etc. The history curriculum seems to be more based on teaching the causes and impacts of the wrongs in the past…hopefully to help stop them happening in the future.

    • philip potts says:

      10:16am | 15/03/11

      Its as some one said alot of angry people out there, I feel sorry for you that you rubbish religion so much ,your belief in the Theory of evolution takes more faith to accept than a belief in God,everything has to have a designer what came first your mouth or anus,you really can’t do without both of them.A lot of you say that you don’t want people putting idea about God in your kids minds but whay do you put in theirs

    • Andrew says:

      10:35am | 15/03/11

      Everything has to have a designer?  So what about the designer himself, doesn’t he need one?  Or does your ‘golden rule’ not apply?  The “theory” of evolution (yes, it’s a scientifiic theory, just like gravity and relativity) has stood up to hundreds of years of scrutiny, with not ONE PIECE of evidence showing it to be false.  In other words, every single living thing on the planet follows the theory.  Just the other day I saw a lungfish for the first time, a remarkable, prehistoric creature that is basically half fish, half reptile - it has fins and lungs like a fish, but legs and a single lung like a reptile.  An amazing creature, which is probably one of the few surviving ‘intermediate’ species predicted by Darwin in his book.  Most died out as more advanced forms adapted, but some still remain.  The theory of evolution is one of the most well proved theories in science, and has remained virtually unchanged since it’s inception.  Even more amazingly, further scientific advances such as gene theory, genetics, and DNA were ALL PREDICTED by the theory.  In other words, as we know more about life, the theory gets better, not worse.

      Let’s compare that to the religious view of the world.  Well, we don’t know where the sun, moon, stars, mountains came from, so let’s say “god made them”.  No idea why it gets cold in winter, so “god does it”.  Not really sure about tides, I guess that’s “god’s work” again.  Oh, now it seems we DO know how these things work?  Guess it wasn’t god at all, right?  In other words, every time we find out new information, it contradicts what religion says.  But I guess you’re lucky in that your pathetic brain is still able to warp, twist and modify the ‘word of god’ so that this new information somehow still fits in your worldview.  I guess you call it faith, I call it blind and stubborn stupidity.

    • Trjn says:

      10:41am | 15/03/11

      To say it takes more faith to believe in evolution than to believe in your god is woefully misinformed. Actually educate yourself on evolution a little before trying to speak about it. You’ll be surprised just how much has been proven and how little a creator has been shown to be involved.

      There are mountains of evidence for evolution, well documented and scientifically tested. The evidence for your god? Faith and an old book that has inconsistencies within the first two chapters. If you aren’t aware, those are the chapters that handle creation.

      You want to teach kids about gods? Show me proof that your god has a hand in anything. Any proof will do. Of course, you’ll also need to provide proof that what you claim can be solely attributed to that particular god and not something else like Cthulhu or an obvious gap in your knowledge.

    • Leah says:

      11:04am | 15/03/11

      Andrew - wow. Evolution has stood up to hundreds of years of scrutiny? Really? Darwin only formulated his theories in the 1800s, that wasn’t hundreds of years ago. And not one piece of evidence has showed evolution to be false? Seriously, what sort of education have you had? My highschool biology (evolutionist) teacher pointed out all sorts of evidences that were faked by evolutionists, plus evidences that are (at least so far) unexplainable by evolution.

      “(the more) we know more about life, the theory gets better”... no, it really doesn’t. Educate yourself. More and more, things pop up that stump evolutionists that they can’t explain. Maybe it doesn’t make the theory worse, but it sure points out the theory is lacking in many areas and sure doesn’t make it any better.

      Your summary of religion’s beliefs just doesn’t make sense. Tides, winter being cold - who said we have no idea?  Of course we know why it happens. How does that at all contradict “religion”? And why does that suddenly exclude the idea that God designed it that way? I know how a watch works too… does that suddenly mean the watch must not have had a designer? This whole “we understand how it works, therefore there must not be any designer” is completely illogical.

    • Kika says:

      11:05am | 15/03/11

      I believe in God and evolution. I believe evolution was the tool God used to create life. Evolution occurs everyday all around us - for eg. for a tiny fish like creature to evolve into whatever mammal or reptile it wants to be. Nothing happens without a reason, and nothing happens without a purpose.

      .I believe Eden is figurative for our pre-homo sapien existence and the fact we evolved into the highly intelligent, social and psychotic primate creatures we are today is testament to our acceptance of knowledge and science (the apple situation).

      Science has not proven what the universe is. Science has not proven what it outside our universe. Science has not proven what existed before the universe, nor could it ever prove what was before.

      That’s my personal view. God is the centre and core of everything. But you can believe in science only and live your own life without a purpose and follow yourself and whoever leads you.

    • LC says:

      11:20am | 15/03/11

      “everything has to have a designer”

      So who “designed” god?

    • LauraBoBaura says:

      11:44am | 15/03/11

      @Leah “Darwin only formulated his theories in the 1800s, that wasn’t hundreds of years ago”....Erm yes, it was. 2011-1800=211. Hundred = 100.
      HundredS = plural.
      Maths fail.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:53am | 15/03/11

      “I believe in God and evolution.”

      A reason to never take anything Kika writes seriously.

    • RobJ says:

      12:28pm | 15/03/11

      “Theory of evolution takes more faith to accept than a belief in God”

      There’s plenty of science backing evolution, there is none backing the existence of a god, believing god actually requires a suspense of rational thinking. ie You write utter nonsense, or if you truly believe what you’ve written then you’re mad.

    • Kika says:

      01:16pm | 15/03/11

      Actually Sad Sad Reality my belief is a very old one and a lot of people agree with me. Bet you’ve never read Origin of Species.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      04:06pm | 15/03/11

      Kika, do you believe the world is flat too? No because science has disproved that. So you like to pick and choose where you believe in science and then let god play goalkeeper for the rest. That is intellectually dishonest and lame. But enjoy.

    • Chris L says:

      07:25pm | 15/03/11

      Leah, the faked evidence was discovered and revealed by the scientific method. Far from disproving evolution these situations actually grant credibility to a field and method that will not just accept what they’re told without testing it.

      as for “More and more, things pop up that stump evolutionists that they can’t explain.”, I’m intrigued. Please provide some (or at least one) example.

    • VS says:

      10:24am | 15/03/11

      Glad to see that the author and many others view the current ‘politically correct’ ideology as leftist originated. The dilution and removal of the values of our founding forefathers from our education system, let alone our society, is not praiseworthy.

      Yes, Australia is a multi-cultural nation. Yes, integration of the racial groups occurs and is beneficial. And yes, we have traditions in religion that should be respected and not washed away because they “offend” someone else.

    • LauraBoBaura says:

      10:29am | 15/03/11

      This is my favourite part of your article Kevin:

      “the dominance of the Catholic Church and the role of significant individuals such as Charlemagne”, “the Church’s power in terms of wealth and labour” and “the nature and power of the Church in this period”, indicate that students will be left with a less than favourable impression”

      Too bad champ, that’s history. If the picture that history paints of your religion is embarassing for you, send them to a religious school where history can be gleefully whitewashed by God’s love for his childrenn

    • stephen says:

      10:30am | 15/03/11

      It’s our lack of respect for Western Culture which is damaging our education standards. We want to learn Indonesian, but make no demands on our English departments for better resources. The new exclusivity is to want to know that which most others don’t : the esotoric nations and how they may help us, i.e. to show the West can save itself.
      You know at Stanford, in the US, they discontinued their course, ‘Western Civilization’, because no staff member wanted to teach it - and not that no-one wanted to learn it - and in the 1960’s !
      This is common now in the US.
      Western civilzation is hard because you have to learn how to do things that are difficult to understand and replicate,e.g. all the Arts, and the Sciences and the great Philosophical and Poetic minds, and the reason these things are hard is because the Great before us knew that there was much at stake : most indeed knew that their thoughts and inventions would be necessary for the rest of mankind, for ever. They were the first Industrialists.
      (Isn’t this why we are so afraid of Nuclear Power : because we don’t trust ourselves i.e.the west ?)
      For some, the bangles, bogarts and bojangles of Ms. Shepherd’s post is enough to save them from responsibility.
      Success breeds responsibility. And we are afraid of it, and the proof is in our Education.

    • Carlos says:

      09:30pm | 15/03/11

      @ Stephen

      What does this even mean?
      It’s just nonsense…

    • Richard says:

      10:44am | 15/03/11

      So Kevin, you think you can run the business… smooth as a babies bottom… with some slick examples of history, religion, corporate spin… I guess the point about those governing doctrines is that they are about control of people, but without the recipients of that control realizing it or knowing it.
      Education is about empowerment, engagement, growth of character, unity, creativity, productivity, knowledge… all the examples you’ve given impart the opposite and force ideals and behaviors onto participants.
      Think a little before setting into a tail spin and farm house mentality.

    • Ainsley Hayes says:

      10:51am | 15/03/11

      No, the Australian culture embodies a number of sub-cultures. That’s it. My father, a NESB migrant, comes from a foreign culture, not ours.  If you really need to ask yourself if you are Australian or you need to ask what being an Australian is, you are not one. A quick visit offshore will also be helpful. We only have to travel to see how different and yet sometimes how similar foreign cultures are. Just do not pretend that the Australian culture does not exist ,cos no one can carry sophistry like that in their head (or for that matter in your heart) like that for very long, it just won’t fly.

    • bobw says:

      10:54am | 15/03/11

      “In the study of Medieval Europe, Christianity is included, but the stated aims ... indicate that students will be left with a less than favourable impression.”

      On the other hand, only a very slanted treatment of medieval Christianity would leave students with an unambiguously favourable impression.

      “... no mention is made of slavery under Islam.”

      I’m sure no mention is made of a lot of things; any curriculum is necessarily going to be selective.  But pointing to cherry-picked exclusions doesn’t really prove a great deal.

      I don’t really get the cultural siege mentality here.

    • James says:

      10:54am | 15/03/11

      We couldn’t have expected anything else but a failure in this back to basics education system propposed by three Labor failures Rudd,Gillard and Garrett.This substandard plan by equally substandard proposers was doomed before it even started as were and are all of their other ideas and lies from Gillard and co when they teamed up with the Greens.the greens will eventually lead to the complete destruction of this once proud leftist Labor party.

    • Rachelle says:

      11:04am | 15/03/11

      I don’t really think it matters what you individually believe in, but we do need to recognise the role of religion throughout our world’s history.  Neglecting to do so is similar to teachers I know who do not like to teach Australian history as the focus must be on the ‘invasion’ and not the development of our country.  As a primary teacher myself, I try to give a balanced presentation of the FACTS.  I also adopt this approach with lessons around Easter and Christmas.  I would never dream of attempting to indoctrinate someone’s child, though it is important to learn where these holidays come from and why we have them.  I love teaching history to my ten year olds at school and they really enjoy learning it as this is reflected in the effort they put into it.  It disappoints me that the Government would choose to ignore large chunks of our history due to political correctness though any curriculum document would be so lacking in substance and prescription that there would always be room to add content if a teacher wished.

    • Che says:

      11:12am | 15/03/11

      How can you say you want “equity, diversity and choice and the values and institutions that promote liberty, democracy, an open and free society” and then say that people must learn a useless thing like “Cristian values”, you either believe in freedom or not. Just because your conservative you shouldn’t force that ignorance on the rest of us, that is oppressive.

    • MondoStef says:

      11:14am | 15/03/11

      Atheists are people who beleive in nothing.  People who beleive in nothing do not beleive in being truthful.  People who tell lies cannot be trusted.  If you cannot trust someone then why would you be having deakings with that person.  So Atheists are liars, they are not trustworthy and they will go to hell.

    • Defender of the faithless! says:

      11:57am | 15/03/11

      @MondoStef: totally agree, totally. I have been am Athiest since I arrived on this planet and thanks to you I have just realised what a Liar I am.
      Thanks dude, heaps!

    • Trjn says:

      12:07pm | 15/03/11

      Oh, I like this game. Let me try.

      Christians are people who believe that all of their sins have been forgiven. People who have had their sins forgiven have no reason to not sin over and over again. Therefore, all Christians are rapists, thieves and murderers and will spend eternity with others of their kind.

    • Stu says:

      12:22pm | 15/03/11

      @ MondoStef:

      Thanks for demonstrating to us what a non-sequitur is.

    • Tedd says:

      12:33pm | 15/03/11

      “Atheists are people who beleive [sic] in nothing.  People who beleive [sic] in nothing do not beleive [sic] in being truthful.” = Lies.

      Atheists are people who beleive in nothing.  People who beleive in nothing do not beleive in being truthful ... blah, blah ...  So Atheists are liars, they are not trustworthy. = circular “reasoning”.

      “Atheists are liars, they are not trustworthy and they will go to hell.” = generalisations, and lies!

    • Elphaba says:

      12:57pm | 15/03/11

      Keeping an eye on this thread, lol :-D

    • Baby Jesus says:

      01:35pm | 15/03/11

      MondoStef, if Atheists are liars then Christians are bigger liars. Here are some big lies of the church:
      1. Mr Invisible created the world in 7 days.
      2. Noah got every type of animal in the world into his ark
      3. The garden of eden existed
      4. jesus was the Messiah
      5. Jesus performed miracles
      6. Jesus rose from the dead
      7. Jesus was immaculately concepted.
      8. Jesus was heterosexual
      9. The bible was created by the Romans in an attempt to unify the Empire and was a complete falsification and fictional story.

      By your reasoning, Jesus cannot be trusted, nor Abraham, nor Moses.

      The thing is you have attacked atheism without even reading this article. This article isn’t about religion you fool, it is about educating todays young people without the apparent BS political correct perspective that is being taught today.
      I tend to agree with the author. Let’s include an anglo-celtic heritage perspective on our classrooms as Australia, by most economic and social measures is a successful country. This success comes down to many things, one of the main ones though, I believe is the long democratic freedoms we enjoy under our constitutional monarchy, bestowed upon us by our British forefathers. Same goes for our right for religious freedoms. If that freedom is to believe in no religion, like me, then that is who we choose to be. The British, like Jesus gave us many nice things. Nothing perfect but nice. Let us not forget them, or Judeo-Christianity in Australia’s history.  I don’t understand why someone like MondoStef feels so compelled to shoot down everyone else’s religious stance. IT MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A BIGOT AND FOOLISH.

    • Stu says:

      01:48pm | 15/03/11

      @ Trjn:

      Oh, I like your non-sequitur much better!

    • andre says:

      02:12pm | 15/03/11

      @Baby Jesus
      mate,  you need to educate yourself on subjects of geology , physics, chemistry and genetic. I am not gonna do it here but shortly : the biggest lie is that nothing created everything for no reason.

    • andy says:

      02:41pm | 15/03/11

      Wow, atheists are really lesser people than Christians then. Maybe we could make them wear some kind of symbol so we can tell who they are?

    • xavierc says:

      03:06pm | 15/03/11

      Nihilists believe in nothing. Haven’t you seen The Big Lebowski? Sheesh!

      Atheists just don’t believe in gods or any other irrational being. I think morality without a god is worth much more than morality with one as the atheist must take responsibilities for their actions

    • MondoStef says:

      04:34pm | 15/03/11

      My post has worked.  I got all you nasty lefty non believers in a lather.

      Lesson 1:  You don’t need to read the article to write a reply.  Where is it written that one must?

      Lesson 2:  Atheists spend a lot of time and energy bleating to the world that their non-belief actually means something to hte greater population.  Like? Who cares about you non-believers?

      Lesson 3: Your disbelief in the existence of God does not mean he does not exist.

      Lesson 4: Belief in God is illogical.  Nobody said trying to wrap your mind around a being who was, is and always will be is a logical concept.  If it was we would probably all be Gods. 

      and…. Lesson 5: Atheists do adhere to a belief system that is subject to a higher authority.  They have their humanistic “ethics”.  Cannibals are probably ethical but taht doesn;‘t make it right.  Atheists change their rules to suit their own mortal cause.  That is why they cannot be trusted.  As a business man, when I find out that a client is an atheist, I quietly and with no fuss, disassociate my dealings with that person.  It is my perrogative to do so.

      Now I await all the “here’s a nother Lesson for MondoStef”.  Just face it guys, Atheism is a lost cause.

    • Another Dave says:

      07:09pm | 15/03/11

      @mondostef
      If Atheists believe in nothing, then they don’t believe in telling lies either Have you ever lied? Even once? That makes you a liar, so you aren’t trustworthy and you will go to hell. Or would if it existed.

    • Baby Jesus says:

      06:46am | 16/03/11

      @andre:
      WTF are you on about? Ok here’s my understanding of what you have told me to educate myself on:

      Geology: the science and study of the solid Earth and the processes by which it is shaped and changed. Geology provides primary evidence for plate tectonics, the history of life and evolution, and past climates.

      Physics:  the study of matter and its motion through spacetime, as well as all related concepts, including energy and force. More broadly, it is the general analysis of nature, conducted in order to understand how the universe behaves

      Chemistry: the science of matter and the changes it undergoes. The science of matter is also addressed by physics, but while physics takes a more general and fundamental approach, chemistry is more specialized, being concerned with the composition, behavior (or reaction), structure, and properties of matter, as well as the changes it undergoes during chemical reactions

      genetic [sic], you probably mean genetics: a discipline of biology, is the science of genes, heredity, and variation in living organisms.

      Please, if I am wrong on any of these subjects, maybe you can teach me, as you apparently have a better grasp on these intellectually stimulating subjects. While you are there can you please educate me on the subjects of grammar, and spelling because you have mastered both of these, as evident in your pathetic response.

      (if you haven’t realised I was being sarcastic- which you would know is a type of mockery)
      “the biggest lie is that nothing created everything for no reason” is unclear in its meaning. Are you atheist or religious? Do you believe that God is nothing, or nothing is evolution, and who’s lie is it anyway? What do you mean buddy? Please learn how to construct a sentence before you criticise others, namely me.

      I HAVE WRITTEN THIS BIT IN CAPITAL LETTERS SO THAT PEOPLE READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN.

    • A Random says:

      10:05am | 17/03/11

      @mondostef
      Your disbelief in the existence of God does not mean he does not exist.
      you belief doesn’t make him exist either.

    • James says:

      11:14am | 15/03/11

      I think we put much emphasis on traditional learning. From about three years of age my mother began to teach me to read, which was picked up by my school. By year three I could read, do basic arithmetic and most importantly I knew how to seek out information and learn independently. As far as I’m concerned year four onwards was just a place for me to go while my parents were at work as I had the skills to teach myself anything I needed to know. For the sake of context, I’m 23 this year.
      On another note; ironic how Federalism is a topic in the curriculm yet the imposition of a central curriculum is totally at odds with the ideals of a Federation.

    • Leah says:

      11:17am | 15/03/11

      Wow, people have really missed the point of this article. Kind of typical though, people see one little word or line and latch onto it and beat it to death… when it’s got nothing to do with the big picture. Yes, Kevin mentioned “school” “teach” “Christianity” in the same paragraph… but learn to read whole sentences and paragraphs, people. Nowhere did he advocate teaching the religion itself in schools. What he *is* advocating, is teaching the *role* this religion has had in the history of our country and in history in general. To learn about Ancient Rome and skip out Christianity’s role in that empire is a seriously flawed education about Ancient Rome. To learn about Australia’s foundation and history and skip the role Christianity has played in that process is also a flawed education. It’s got nothing to do with teaching Christianity itself. It’s like saying you should teach a unit on India without mentioning Hinduism’s role in that country’s history or you should teach a unit on Japan without mentioning Buddhism’s role in that country, just because ooh, we need to be PC and not mention any religion because it might offend somebody. It’s ridiculous.

    • bobw says:

      12:12pm | 15/03/11

      I agree that some people have latched onto the wrong end of the stick here, Leah (although what else is new).  But the broader problem is that the “whole sentences and paragraphs” of this article don’t combine to make much of a case for anything, let alone that the draft curriculum has been corrupted by “PC” sensibilities.  The whole thing reads like a catalogue of largely unassociated gripes the author came up with after reading the document wearing Gerard Henderson’s borrowed spectacles.

    • ij says:

      11:21am | 15/03/11

      Once again christians are attempting to get their irrational beliefs taught in all schools. This is just the thin edge of the wedge. Children should go to school to learn, not be lied to by the religious with an agenda.

    • Kika says:

      11:41am | 15/03/11

      In all reality, RE classes are optional. If you don’t want your kids to partcipate - don’t. If you do, do allow them to participate.

    • SDS says:

      11:26am | 15/03/11

      Why should we taught education from a religious perspective? Surely the ethical standards would be learnt through the actions or tools employed to teach children the ‘class taught lessons’, such as group play, team work, observing basic classroom or sports game rules, manners, consideration after the fact, deep thought, discussion, exploration, discipline.

    • andre says:

      11:30am | 15/03/11

      ....and result of the politically correct , curriculum without morals that are the “obsession of christianity” that our civilisation has been based on is : crime rate rise, rise in homosexual behaviour , rise in abortion rate, racism that is coming straight from Darwinism, all that based on “rational” reasoning that accidental explosion of hydrogen out of nothing created everything that is visible today , chimpanzee is your cousin and relativism is the morality of today.

    • Trjn says:

      11:48am | 15/03/11

      Crime rates are down.

      Homosexuality has been around since ancient times and probably isn’t on the rise but just more visible because the Christian dogma that vilifies homosexuals for who they are is (rightfully) losing favour with the general population.

      Abortion rates in Australia have been pretty steady for the last 15 years.

      Racism is not coming straight from Darwinism. Some racists might use a misinterpretation of evolutionary theories as “justification” for their views, but it doesn’t come straight from Darwin. After all, the KKK is a Christian organisation.

      On the other hand, the absolute morality of the Bible dictates that a man who rapes an unmarried woman should pay her father and then marry her. A person who utters the name of a god should be put to death. A woman who grasps the genitals of a man who is fighting her husband shall have her hand cut off. A child who disrespects their parents should be put to death.

      The morality of the Bible is only good if you pick and choose the parts that still seem nice. The best part about that is that most of the came from sources predating the Bible, like the Golden Rule. Doing unto others isn’t something Jesus came up with.

      Society is improving, don’t try to delude yourself into thinking that things were better when the Church had a tighter grip on society, because that simply isn’t true.

    • bleD says:

      11:57am | 15/03/11

      You need to go to school again and learn some science Andre.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:02pm | 15/03/11

      @Andre, please look at the crime and education stats of atheist countries such as Sweden, as well as the religious denominations of convicted criminals.

      Until then, you’re full of it.  Get some facts.

    • ij says:

      01:14pm | 15/03/11

      Faith based societies have the highest crime rates, the highest teen pregancies, the highest abortion rates, ..., compared to non faith based societies.

      You want these things to be low? Live in a secular democracy, where religion is irrelevant.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      02:19pm | 15/03/11

      Indeed ij, as Dawkins pointed out, the US states with higher levels of religion also have higher levels of violent crime.  They are also more likely to be the states with the death penalty, despite Jesus teaching forgiveness.

      Dawkins, sensibly, does not try to use this as evidence that christians are less moral, but merely to shatter the argument by SOME christians that morality comes from religion and that christians are more moral.

    • Bernard Reid says:

      11:30am | 15/03/11

      All Socialist parties see state education as a tool of control by propoganda.
      All.

    • andy says:

      02:44pm | 15/03/11

      Apparently the Christians do as well.

    • Hona WIkeepa says:

      11:36am | 15/03/11

      We are merely being consistent with the culture of the day in Australia going back to when white people stole this country and then proceeded to decimate the indigenous culture whilst portraying another Australia. Politics in Australia is like the anthem and the coat of arms in that it ignores a black history or at least gives us a white selective history. The whole world knows we are stupid in Australia and that we don’t care if they know about our racist selective history. But the younger white generation have seen and been witnesses to the selective regime that is their parents and offspring. These things don’t last forever because eventually people complain and want change. Lets hope the ethics classes in education begin with a transparent Australian history rather than the selective history given in education. No wonder the American’s don’t trust us or anyone else for that matter. We are white and conceited and don’t like change that brings non-white people to this non white country. Education is retarded in Australia because it is selective.

    • Spoken says:

      11:38am | 15/03/11

      Religion has no place in any curriculum.

    • Frederick Nietzsche says:

      11:41am | 15/03/11

      As an atheist I an compelled to know and give and explanation of the God I don’t believe in or know to anyone who asks or in the event of a debate with the Christian who should also be able to describe the type of God they know. To date myself and my atheist community in Australia are still looking for an explanation. Education can’t make up its mind whether we are accidents of unguided evolution or merely the chemicals that make up the DNA template. Not much personality on display here and so the kids think adults are screwed and they are right.

    • andre says:

      12:19pm | 15/03/11

      right!!
      DNA contains information that is not matter , nor energy. There is no know mechanism in the universe that would create information out of nothing and added it to genomes of bacteria in its evolutionary rush towards humanity…

    • HappyCynic says:

      03:44pm | 15/03/11

      @andre

      The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle would like a word with you.

      In short you’re completely ignorant if you think that there is no known mechanism for creating information out of nothing.  When were you educated?  In the Stone Age?

    • michael j says:

      11:51am | 15/03/11

      After reading nearly every comment and finding no reference to LUCIFER the true God of this world who is usually given a Big mention in Christianity and a couple of the other minor Religions it would be a good idea to return? was it stopped? to teaching Christianity in government schools, then maybe we will end up with a few voters that recognize the truth for what it is a lie,and it is alrite to lie if you are in politics or a lawyer i know this to be the truth cause ms Gillard said so last nite ,,JESUS CHRIST i can’t believe she said that on tv,,but the LIE was for the good of the Australian people, that’s the truth, take more then a good grounding in God the Farther,God the son,and the Holy Spook,to cut to the core of the current politic curriculum,,but why waste a kids time at school when they could be learning something they might enjoy or even daydreaming about breaking their latest score on
      death,killgore,naphammideast IV on their x box,,,HOW about they make an X box game along the lines of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ no good either i spose schools can’t afford a computer ,n,x box would be out,,,
      AH well looks like its back to home study and weekend supervision,
      and no Religion in Government schools,,

    • Max Redlands says:

      11:55am | 15/03/11

      @jeffb

      Perhaps you could educate me on the issues in Australia’s history were Christianity has played a significant role?

      well the chrisitan influence is all over the common law which underpins our legal system…it is no coincidence that the ideas that you should not kill or steal are echoed in laws reagrding assault and theft

      even the modern law of negilegnce is based on an adaption of the christian principle that you should love your neighbour as any 1st year law student should know . As Lord Atkin said in Donohughe v Stevenson “The (Christian) rule that you are to love your neighbour becomes in law you must not injure your neighbour”

      Closer to home the Protestant/Catholic divide has had an enormous effect on Australian history, sociology and politics

      The above is just scratching the surface

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      12:32pm | 15/03/11

      Scratching - like a chicken, shallow ans for nothing more substantial than worms.

    • bobw says:

      12:40pm | 15/03/11

      Max:  “it is no coincidence that the ideas that you should not kill or steal are echoed in laws reagrding assault and theft”

      Actually, in the grand scheme of things, it is essentially a coincidence.  “Christianity” hardly invented basic social cohesion laws.

      To suggest that the law of negligence is in any real sense an outgrowth of a Christian epigram is just silly.

      Your third point is true enough though.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:53pm | 15/03/11

      @Max, laws in society were pervasive long before religion.  We never would have been able to form communities if we were too busy killing and looting one another.  Humans are social animals, that need the company and safety of other humans in order to survive (particularly in the early, early days).

      Non-human primates also display distinctly moral behaviour that they obviously didn’t learn from religion.

      So I put it to you, that Christianity wrote down morals already prevalent in society - it didn’t invent them.

    • kate says:

      11:18am | 16/03/11

      The fact that all religions have remarkably similar basic precepts (don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t lie etc) should give you a hint that these are not “christian” values or muslim values or pastafarian values but HUMAN values, innate and/or evolved through millenia of social contact.

      In case you hadn’t noticed, most people (including most atheists) don’t murder & steal, most of the time. 

      The fact that your religion took something that was already bleeding obvious (“thou shalt not kill”) and put it in a book 2000 years ago doesn’t mean your particular cult has any ownership of the concept.

    • Nick says:

      12:24pm | 15/03/11

      The world has gone PC mad.

      School’s should be teaching skills - reading, writing, mathematics, science, history, geography, technical skills, home life skills.

      But most importantly, these children need to learn how to learn. Reading and writing is one thing, comprehension is another. How to research a topic, and then make judgments, or links between topics or ideas. Problem solving. Creative thinking. Religion may be taught, but from an objective view, such as origins of religions, common ideals between religions, affects of religion on how people live their lives.

      I am not a religious person. I feel that I do not need a belief in a deity to live a good life. To care about others. I choose to do good things because I believe it is the right thing to do. I respect people’s right to believe in whatever they want to believe in, it’s their choice.

    • A dose of Reality says:

      12:38pm | 15/03/11

      A poor article using education to push an agenda. Religion (unsupported superstition) should not be in schools. 

      So commandeth the noodly one, before whom we will all be sauced on plate-ment day.

    • John says:

      01:48pm | 15/03/11

      So, atheists don’t believe in an after life. They believe that when they die everything stops and there is nothingness. How does that idea make you feel? And whats the best way to teach that idea to 5 year olds who are full of joy and happiness?

      And how do you put up with working 9-5 and paying taxes?

    • Elphaba says:

      02:11pm | 15/03/11

      How does that idea make you feel?

      Me personally?  Awesome.  I don’t want to live for ever and ever and ever and ever.  Wouldn’t it get really boring after a while?  Wouldn’t you run out of places to see/things to do/people to talk to?

      Also, it means that I’m not forced to live a life that supposed to have this huge meaning and the pressure of having to leave a mark on the world.  Expectation, much?  Instead, I can do my own thing (providing don’t knowingly hurt or exploit others, or break any laws), free from the struggle to find meaning in my life, or fulfilling someone else’s supposed “plan” for them.  Life is about enjoyment.  Life is about learning new things.  (Part of) life is about discussion with you lot on the Punch.  Isn’t that enough?  Or do you let the excrutiating minutiae of every day life get you down?  Gotta work 9-5?  So what?  Have to pay taxes?  Oh well, just get on with it.  Make your life about the enjoyable bits in between, not the obligatory stuff like cleaning the toilet or sucking up to your boss.

      Why not just tell kids “I don’t know what happens after we die?”  (after all, you don’t).  Then provide them with all the options and explain each of them, then tell them whichever one they like the most is the one they should follow, and the one they should believe in.

      Why must we force a viewpoint on them?  Why can’t we just encourage whatever option they choose for themselves?

      Finding meaning in life does not begin and end with God.  It might work for some - hell, it works for many.  But it’s not the be all and end all.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      02:12pm | 15/03/11

      John, as an atheist and a libertarian, I really don;t need much more encouragment to hate taxes.

      “They believe that when they die everything stops and there is nothingness. How does that idea make you feel? And whats the best way to teach that idea to 5 year olds who are full of joy and happiness?”

      These are really interesting questions, but they have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there is a god.  Just because something might be unpleasant to contemplate, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.  I really don’t like thinking about what is happening in Japan right now, and I would hate to explain it to a joyful 5 year old, but it’s definitely happening.

      And accepting the likelihood that this is it, there is nothing more after I die, makes me appreciate this life for what it is - a place of beauty and wonder, a place for joyful discovery.  Not a mere waiting room.

    • Veejay says:

      02:39pm | 15/03/11

      @ John: Actually, the idea of nothingness after death is quite peaceful. There was nothingness before I was born, so it’s nothing to fret about.

      I would explain death to a joyous, happy 5-year-old as going to sleep, but you don’t dream and can’t wake up. On the plus-side, there are no nightmares.

      How would you explain Hell to a joyous, happy 5-year-old?

      “And how do you put up with working 9-5 and paying taxes?”
      Easy. I love my job and overall, I understand why we need to pay taxes. You know, for insignificant little things like health, education, social security and so on…

      Too easy. Next?

    • John says:

      03:39pm | 15/03/11

      @ Veejay, if you really feel that way, good for you.

    • robert says:

      03:43pm | 15/03/11

      Its easy to explain to kids what happens when they die.  Its not scary you just go back to a year before you were born

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      04:21pm | 15/03/11

      POST @ John says: 01:48pm | 15/03/11

      “So, atheists don’t believe in an after life. They believe that when they die everything stops and there is nothingness. “

      No John, as an atheist this is not what I “believe” (to use childlike ideas - but that’s to be expected given it’s no doubt the context of your indoctrination.  By the way, you should seek help if the concept of death still scares you so).

      What I do “believe” is that when I die the world will keep turning, the breeze still blow and the grass still grow.  The universe was here long before me, and might just continue without me - even if you can’t.

      More importantly, I believe that my daughters have the right to draw their own conclusions regarding this world they were born into - freely.  It is unfortunate that they need protection from extremists who insist on forcing their views on those who lack the ability to reason.

    • Mayday says:

      05:25pm | 15/03/11

      John @ 1.48 How do you explain to a 5 year old the concept of original sin?

    • Craig says:

      12:44pm | 15/03/11

      Most of the people posting on here have completely missed the point of the essay. It isn’t supposed to be a debate about one religion over another or whether you believe in God etc.. It is highlighting the fact that even though Christianity and western culture has played an enormous part in shaping the Australia that we live in today, the education system either ignores it or paints a black arm-band view towards it. As he correctly points out this politically correct agenda is driven by the “Left-intelligentsia’s preoccupation with Asia and indigenous Australians”. It is time we started to appreciate our Anglo-Celtic heritage and recognise and respect what is still our dominant culture.

    • andre says:

      01:02pm | 15/03/11

      ...which brings us again to aim of the agenda of so called leftist inteligentsia : eliminating christianity and its values from schools and state, and replace it with anti christian philosophy of Darwinism masqueraded in politically correct curriculums as science and rationalism…

    • Rick says:

      02:07pm | 15/03/11

      Sure I suppose its time to start appreciating your anglo-celtic heritage…..................if your an anglo-celt.

    • Veejay says:

      02:47pm | 15/03/11

      @ Rick: I am not an Anglo-Celt nor Anglo-Saxon, nor Anglo-anything, but I still appreciate the heritage. That is why i migrated here, mate. Or at least, it was why I moved here 20-odd years ago - people still had pride in being Australian, and there was the attitude of “can do”.
      This excessive self-hatred is killing the spirit of this country that i fell in love in when I came here…
      :-(

    • Andre James says:

      12:52pm | 15/03/11

      Adults who claim to have imaginary friends watching them from the sky should be kept away from decisions regarding education, and from impressionable young children in general.

    • G says:

      01:04pm | 15/03/11

      To people who claim this is an essay on religion - did you really read?

      This debate is about how education in this country is becoming more PC. The curriculum is trying to make everyone happy instead of laying out the facts. It is omitting critical facts in history which can MISLEAD children.

      Also to those who claims religion has no place in education - sorry to burst your bubble, but what world are you living in? The modern western education system where EVERYONE has a right to education has been an innovation of Christianity. If not for people like St Mary of the Cross (aka Mary Mackillop), children who were poor would not have had an education. Historically, disadvantaged children were educated by the Christians.

      Nowadays, no one is ever told that it was the Christians who taught our ancestors, not the government.

      It’s a matter of historical accuracy. Giving due credit to people where credit is deserved.

    • Grant says:

      01:07pm | 15/03/11

      You Know, Whether you believe in God or not ,the select few should not dictate changes based on thier own some times bigoted views. especially when it has the potential to undermine our social ecology.

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      01:10pm | 15/03/11

      What most commentators and the essayist has so completely missed is the Curriculum is the Aims and the Objectives of the education’s basic and core affective and cognitives skills and values. The Syllabus is the content by which the core skills and values can be taught. In the majority of cases the curriculum can be achieved by a plethora of syllabi.
      For example: ethics can be taught by way of the Koran or the Bible or the Torah.
      Western numeration is Arabic, our language is Indo-European. Hence to achieve numeracy and literacy we do not revert back to Celtic or Saxon heritage - Learning to read is not culturally specific - the skill can be taught in French, Chinese or English ... Only three of the 10 commandments actually refer to ethics - stealing, bearing false witness and killing the rest are irrelevantly God centred behaviour - the seven deadly sins serve to stop the proletariate from challenging the the rights an d privileges of the aristocracy.
      When we differentiate between curriculum and syllabus we might just get somewhere in the education de=bate.

    • Max Redlands says:

      01:21pm | 15/03/11

      @bobw - well i take your point , to a point , about the social cohesion laws, but as far as the negligence issue goes i suggest you read the case: see this link for overview http://www.safetyphoto.co.uk/subsite/case abcd/donoghue_v_Stevenson.htm

      the christian principle is central to the notion of a “duty of care” which does indeed underpin the modern law

      @ doseofreality - thanks for your considered reponse

    • bobw says:

      01:46pm | 15/03/11

      @Max:  I am familiar with the case.  I would take the statement of Lord Atkin that you quoted as being more in the nature of a literary allusion than a serious attempt to state the moral/legal justification for negligence law.  His judgment represents an effort to extract a general rule from a bunch of pre-existing cases - not an appeal to first principles, Christian or otherwise.

    • Dave says:

      01:39pm | 15/03/11

      Left wing idiots and doo gooders, the PC brigade brainwashing the next generation. In NSW for example Al Gore’s inconvenient “myth” has been put on the curriculum, a book so full of inacccuracies it isn’t funny. But hey you got get them while they are young.

    • Another Dave says:

      05:55pm | 15/03/11

      @ dave
      Left wing idiots and doo gooders, the PC brigade brainwashing the next generation. In NSW for example Al Gore’s inconvenient “myth” has been put on the curriculum, a book so full of inacccuracies it isn’t funny. But hey you got get them while they are young.

      Is that why Christians are so insistent on scripture lessons & chaplains in state schools? To get them while they are young? Coincidently, also based on a book so full of inaccuracies , it isn’t funny.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:42pm | 15/03/11

      The rise of cloning will allow us to answer this tricky God question once and for all.  Here’s how:

      1. Send some genetic scientists into a Catholic Church to wait for Communion
      2. During Communion, the miracle of transubstantiation will occur, turning bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ
      3. The scientists quickly remove the blood and body of Christ from the throats of the faithful
      4. They use the sample to clone Jesus, the Son of God, and as part of the Holy Trinity, God himself.

      We now have a situation where God exists on earth in our own time, so we can study him and his miracles under scientific conditions.  Of course, it introduces other problems.  By ‘creating God’ ourselves, we become meta-gods, and God himself is just the creation - and with clear proof of our role as creator (cloner), God will have no choice but to worship us.  So essentially, by proving the miracle of transubstatiation and thereby proving the existence of God, we actually destroy the God the Creator.

      God was a clever chap (or chapette), hiding the truth of his/her existence in the destruction of his/her supremacy is creator.

      But anyway, until we do the experiment, lets hold off on the God exists/God doesn’t exist conjecture.  Maybe we can even get back to talking about education.

    • Brett says:

      01:45pm | 15/03/11

      Education in Australia is a farce. The histroy curiculum is boring and a joke, focusing on Aboriginal history (where there is no history, only culture, so could be covered in about 30 mins), skipping over the slaughter of Aboriginees in early Australia (which is actually brutal and interesting) and focussing on boring Australian history.

      Our kids are never pushed these days, education is not demanding. We molly coddle. Whilst I don’t think Christianity should be taught or focused on in schools, it should be mentioned as it has shaped the entire Western world and our country. That is reality. Asia did nothing to shape our country until the 1940’s. Watch immigration nation to see the true history of our immigration, our racism, our allowances, and who really came into Australia to build it.

      Kevin may rant like a priest (though I note it doesn’t look like he is) but he has a very valid point.

    • petery says:

      06:08am | 19/03/11

      @Brett.
        History curriculum is boring and focussed on aboriginal history. I question this so called fact. There is no single curriculum as six startes now have six different syllabuses so which one are you talking about? Aboriginal history is only a tiny part of each syllabus, so sorry Brett, but that part of the statement is absolute crap.
      History is boring might well be true for many people but that is their problem not the fault of history.

    • brad says:

      02:04pm | 15/03/11

      Who gives a rats about religion when our kids leave school unable to read, write and add. Schools need less rubbish such as foreign languages, arts and social sciences and more english, pure sciences and maths. If you want to learn the other stuff, do it in your own bloody time.  While you’re at it, take all the political correctness out of parent teacher reporting. A problem can’t be fixed if you’re not aware there is one.

    • Max Redlands says:

      02:11pm | 15/03/11

      @ bobw - thanks for your considered response (and this time i don’t have the sarcasm button on) - i don’t mind someone disagreeing with me if they do so in rational way (the result is i usually learn something or at least I have to test my position again in light of the criticism )

      dopey comments like that of doseofreality which do nothing to advance the debate i think we can all do without (imho)

    • bobw says:

      03:33pm | 15/03/11

      @Max:  Not at all.  I should emphasise that I agree entirely with your general point that an appreciation of the role of religion and religious institutions is fundamental to understanding many aspects of history (although I’m not convinced that the lead article is motivated simply by commitment to that view).  But I reckon the interface between Anglo-Australian law and Christian morality is pretty murky - there’s a relationship there, no doubt, but it’s not a straighforward or exclusive one.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      04:41pm | 15/03/11

      My comment stands.  Your argument was shallow and non-substantive.  Wild premise upon likewise, historically incorrect through massive omission, put forward as conclusive.

      My only regret is the spelling error - quite reflective of an inferior education, no doubt (do you think I should tell the “brothers”?).

    • A Bob says:

      02:12pm | 15/03/11

      Kev, you used the phrase “grand narrative” somewhat loosely. The Grand Narrative (all capitals intended) is an historical term referring to the view of Western history that was popular in the late 19th century up until post WW2. It looked at our culture as jumping straight from ancient Greece to the Enlightenment while ignoring pretty much everything in between. Quite the opposite of what your ‘grand narrative’ would like to do.

      No real point to my observation, other than expecting more from an oldie who proclaims to know history being more circumspect in his choice of words. Oh, and to nitpick. Carry on.

    • Quincunxian says:

      02:42pm | 15/03/11

      Religion has no place in either politics or education institutions.
      If parents want to indoctrinate their offspring in their particular faith, then there are special schools that provide those kinds of services.
      Religion generally, has been the root cause for more pain, anguish, torture and has resulted in more deaths that all the dictators and would be emperors in the history of ourplanet. 
      Why on earth would any person want to perpetuate this tragedy by forcing it down the throats of our children in a public school.

    • Steve says:

      02:49pm | 15/03/11

      How did Christianity shape our legal and free society?  In fact many atheists did so.  I think you’ve got your facts wrong.  Some of our system is because people over threw a king and very little if not nothing to do with Christianity.  In fact fighting against the terror of the dark ages help shaped the renaissance, which has shaped out civilisation.  Why were the dark ages so dark?  Oh that’s right, Christianity.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you want your kids to learn about Christianity send them church or a Christian school.  Stop forcing your views on other people.

    • Bev says:

      06:47pm | 15/03/11

      Such a missmash I will address one point.  Monasteries were in fact centres of learning and were the storehouses of knowledge during the dark ages.  Without them much of the knowledge we have from earlier times would have been lost. Many morphed into the early universities after the dark ages. The dark ages were more about the infighting between nobles over land and power and the successive waves of invading germanic tribes and really had little to do with religion.  Time to take the red pill!

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      03:06pm | 15/03/11

      Or perhaps the Commonwealth authority that has responsibility here is taking the Constitution seriously.  S116: “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.”

      Anyway.  This is all the fault of the big government athiests. You think you’re so clever. You’ve been outplayed.  Your weaknesses have been used against you. Simple maths. According to demographer Erik Kauffman at your 2010 Festival of Dangerous Ideas.  People get their religion from their parents +  they’ve been doing what the religious do so well:  Breed.

      What do you think that does to democratic polls?  Shift it to the right. Doh! Simply solution.  Get your tax foot off your fellow athiests throats.  Then they won’t get outbred into obscurity. (I’d suggest the alternative of taxing all religious organisations and their internal activities like you tax individuals and companies.  But that’ll never happen.) Playing God with things like the school curriculum won’t do enough. Haven’t you learnt that yet.  The thing about athiests is they think they’re so clever because they have seen beyond the kiddies layer of religious content. Shame really.

      From an athiestic evolutionary perspective, monothesism is the peak of human evolution. Nothing has displaced it yet. Demography is demonstrating that this latest effort (originating say in the late 1880s) to displace religion is failing. Hmmm ...brings me to the interesting question: doesn’t this prove that God actually does exist. (Oh and I’m not talking about the kiddies layer skyfairy depiction of God)

    • robert says:

      03:37pm | 15/03/11

      religion is failing.  why dont you look at the census, and allow for the bias in the questions. religion is crashing

    • malohi says:

      03:41pm | 15/03/11

      No. You have failed at logic, but I am guessing that logic is not your strongest trait.

      people believe in x
      other people try to disuade people from basing life changing decisions for them and thier family on x due to no evidence to say that x is real
      people continue to believe in x
      therefore x is real.

      please insert the following for x (santa clause, unicorns, loch ness monster, ufos, aliens, yowies and finally, god) to venture into the truly absurd.

    • David says:

      04:01pm | 15/03/11

      Then why am I and so many other atheists, well, atheists while our parents are still religious? Why is it with increasing education in any nation a corresponding decline in religiosity is observed?

      Kauffman has had many criticisms laid against his figures and I think they are justified (as an epidemiologist myself I have some expertise in statistical modelling of population activities and changes over time). It is far too simplistic to say, well these people are religion X and so will their children and their children, etc. There are external factors in play such as education, socioeconomic status, remoteness, social connectedness, geopolitical environment, war, disaster (famine, drought, floods, etc), degree of social freedom and capacity to make accurate observations of religiousity just to name a few.

      People deal with the world in unique ways but the consistent pattern across the world is with improving societal health a corresponding decline in religiosity is observed. No one has separated the two into a causal pattern, it could go either way: with religion creating societal harmony and doing itself out of a job or social progress reducing the demand for religious activities.  I have my suspicions it is the latter rather than the former given religion’s capacity to produce social division and conflict.

      Just look at the article again, that is exactly why the author is advocating various concerns, he perceives a threat to his own group’s (Christians) place in the world and is seeking to affirm institutional protection. However this protection is only achievable by discriminating against those outside the group (but within the society). This isn’t a criticism from the view of political correctness. It is a criticism based on principles of secularism where no one religious group is afforded special privelages in a diverse and liberal society. Once upon a time Australia was not particularly diverse, certainly not religiously however we are not setting a curriculum for Australia in 1930, we are setting on for today and beyond and there is nothing but diversity in that projection. If some degree of harmony is to be achieved then secularism is a must. I, and many others, don’t care what your magic books say, we are free to be who we want in this nation and you have no right to institutional privelage in seeking to convert me and my children.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      04:19pm | 15/03/11

      Umm, I think that globally, you’ll find Islam outbreeding the Christians. Monotheism might be the peak of human evolution but nothing says it has to be a Christian God.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      09:09am | 16/03/11

      @ Robert. If you’re right then ... that’s just Australia. All 22 million of us. World population is forecast to top out at 9,000 million. What’s their faith? Planning on a siege state are you?  Think they’ll have reservations about taking over after we did the same to the previous care taker population of humans?  We’re just a bunch of whingers and bullies sitting on a huge farm and a huge pile of Gold, Uranium, Coal, Iron Ore etc. Calling us a ‘lucky country’ is actually an insult.

      Maybe that’s the definition of an athiest - a narrow thinker. Not unlike the narrow thinkers for whom the kiddies layer of religion was developed for.

    • robert says:

      03:10pm | 15/03/11

      This is an amazing and bizarre talk.. In one breath Mr Donnely talks about our western judeo christian background and says that the bad things are taught about the romans and european slavery, and why dont they teach the pitfalls of islam. He cant be this silly. If its our heritage that did terrible things then of course its more important and relevant than someone elses heritage.
      His statement that our western heritage , including christianity has resulted in such things as as “civility, morality, objectivity, compassion, kindness, humility, creativity and truth-telling”  implies that asians dont have these values.  Its time to go out to pasture Kevin, simply on the grounds of poor philosophical argument and irrationality

    • Doug says:

      03:16pm | 15/03/11

      Actually Steve, thanks to the monks living in abbeys on the barren coasts of ireland were the last bastion of civilisation in th e so called “dark ages”. Thanks to them the knowledge and learning of classical times was preserved, copied and, ultimately,dispersed which was a big help when it came to the renaissance.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      03:39pm | 15/03/11

      Isn’t that just about the selective dissemination of information controlled by Rome?

    • iansand says:

      03:56pm | 15/03/11

      Actually Doug I think you will find that most of the preserving was done by those Muslim Arab chappies and the folk in Byzantium.

    • David says:

      04:03pm | 15/03/11

      Went the other way too, much of our understanding of ancient Greek writings was preserved in Arabic translations, in addition to the progress the Arabic scholar made.

      Europe’s ‘Dark Ages’ were not the world’s.

    • Zac de Spudnut says:

      04:33pm | 15/03/11

      Any time knowledge, learning or civilisation is raised we have the anti-western forces mainly the lefties and some Muslims who is into all out praise for Islam. But the truth is this: the advent of Islam was the beginning of the end of all learning, education and technology. A bit of the development we did see happened during the Byzantine era. Yes the greeks did have basic forms of democracy but democracy was made popular and institutionalised by the Europeans and Christians played the most integral role in the spread of democracy around the world. Christians are the pioneers of democracy. But the lefties, Atheists and others wouldn’t want to hear anything that will stop their agenda. Christians know the truth and will counter the agenda.

    • iansand says:

      06:42pm | 15/03/11

      Oh Zac.  There was an Islamic enlightenment, from about the 9th century to the 13th century.  Then some fruitloop Islamic fundamentalists got hold of power and shut the enlightenment down.  I think they were probably a bit like you.  Religion had all the answers and all inquiry outside religion was heretical.

      Muslims led the modern world in ignorant religious fundamentalism.  The Christians are, only now, catching up.

    • Zac de Spudnut says:

      07:48pm | 15/03/11

      iansand,

      Really? Like I said Islam has absolutely nothing to do with enlightenment but that wouldn’t stop the leftist/Atheist ideologists from preaching the Islamic enlightenment absurdity. The idea is to counter and wipe out Christianity at any cost. That goes with ideologies like multiculturalism and other isms. So even monster lies wouldn’t stop the ideologists.

      Muslims led the modern world>>>

      by inventing light bulbs, printing press, internet etc?

      Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atphQK47dyA

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      08:37am | 16/03/11

      Meritocracy enlightens.  Cronyism darkens. No religion has a monopoly.

      But do the Amish fit into this rule.

    • P. Darvio says:

      10:12am | 16/03/11

      Zac !! - I need you to quote some more Christian Historians like Alan Bullock - please please….....

    • David says:

      03:26pm | 15/03/11

      What I got from this rather long submission was:

      1. Politically Correct and Secular are apparently the same thing, this is certainly news to me. While being PC is adjusting language and discussion to avoid offending someone and secularism is not providing a single religious group special capacity and treatment in the system I can see how the two may overlap. However, you can be secular in a non-PC sense (actually this is what atheists are usually accused of frequently). And you can be PC without advocating secularism.
      2. Apparently, we shouldn’t be improving our children’s capacity to interact and conduct business with Asia, nevermind the strongest facets of our economy rely on Asia. Screw you India! Bugger off China! Let’s go hang out with whitey some more. Frankly, I don’t care. It is a global economy and the USA is an empire in decline no matter how you look at the figures. Accept it and look to our own future, not theirs.
      3. We aren’t giving Christianity enough of a special place in our system (refer to point 1 regarding secularity). Australia is a nation of diverse religious and non-religious demographics. The relevance of Christianity has waned terribly (with census figures slow to follow due to the ambiguous question on religious affiliation). Any research on religious engagement places Australia as one of the least religiously active nations in the world. Go have your fun in faith outside government schools, you’re free to do so, no one is stopping you - we’re just stopping you subjecting anyone else to it while they’re supposed to be receiving an education. It isn’t PC it is secularism and the fact that Christians get offended people are campaigning to remove religious instruction is evidence that PC isn’t part of the agenda.
      4. Islam needs more negative PR in our education system, how else are we supposed to produce fully grown adults with irrational fears for their neighbours? How else will we stymie cultural mixing and socialisation between cultures? We can’t go around being all collegial and engage in cross-cultural dialogues.

      See the problem is, the west looks at its ascendency as evidence of the righteousness of our ‘way of life’ while ignoring its dependency on those from other cultures and religions to ascend. Combine this with some fortunate technological and geopolitical arrangements and voilà we have the false notion we are the intended goal of humanity. It is just so egocentric I can’t stand it. We were not always the pinnacle of human civilisation and progress.  Don’t get me wrong, I like western culture and I enjoy democracy and the freedoms it provides and I will defend them to the bitter end. But can we please move on from the holier than thou BS and instead of looking down our noses at other cultures, engage them and seek to share our understandings of how well-being and prosperity can be sought (instead of imposing them, wow, who’d have thought the simplicity of leading by example would be so relevant). Never know, we might pick up a few neat tricks along the way and refine our own approach (as we actually have been the whole time). However, we won’t achieve anything like this with a fearful and suspicious eye on our neighbours, geographically or residentially.

    • Zac de Spudnut says:

      04:44pm | 15/03/11

      1. Politically Correct and Secular are apparently the same thing, this is certainly news to me. While being PC is adjusting language and discussion to avoid offending someone and secularism is not providing a single religious group special capacity and treatment in the system>>>

      PC and Secular are same to the extent where both these idea erode individual freedom and the practice of Christian lifestyle (some call it religion) in the public space. One of the editorial from The Australian during the World Youth Day got into the heart of the issue:

      “Yet it WYD is resisted by many who seek a radical change in the status quo. They represent an aggressive “new secularism”, a philosophy much discussed by Benedict, that aspires to deny religion by shrinking it to a strictly private affair. In terms of governance, such advocates want not a traditional secular state to enshrine religious freedom, but the creation of atheism as the de facto established religion to drive real religion from the public domain.

      This constitutes one of the most radical and intolerant projects in Australian political history.”

      Ref: Test of Spirit, The Australian

      Go have your fun in faith outside government schools,>>>

      Here is a great reply:

      “Democracy – political system in which the people rule through any form of government in which the law must reflect the will of the people not rule of any God which is a private matter.

      Ref: Comment: Rick of Sydney, Monsters deserving justice, Piers Akerman, Daily Telegraph, Australia, Wednesday, July 23, 2008
      Premise

      However the will of the people is informed by God. If democracy is the will of the people then how can this be a private matter? The whole idea of democracy is self defeating and self destructive. This is not freedom. This is Atheistic tyranny.”

      http://atheisticviolence.wordpress.com/2008/07/28/referendum-14-questions-to-find-out-what-secularismatheism-has-got-to-offer-our-society-and-if-it-will-solve-any-of-our-problems/

    • Bev says:

      07:23pm | 15/03/11

      “PC is adjusting language and discussion to avoid offending someone”
      Sorry it is much more.  By controlling language you go a long way to controlling peoples thoughts, behaviors and actions.  It is perhaps the most insidios people control mechanism ever developed. You can see it at work here in this discussion.  While some are attempting to stay on topic, raise points and let theirs and others points stand or fall on merit the PC brigrade are in here only to attempt to hijack, and regurgitate their PC views like the clones that they were tought to be.

    • Craig says:

      06:26am | 16/03/11

      David, I don’t know where you read into this article that western culture has a “holier than thou” attitude. I think this is your bias and predisposition showing through. Australia is the great country that it is today because of it’s Anglo Celtic heritage and culture. If it was settled by Japan for example it would be very different, not necessarilry better or worse just different. The article is trying to make the point that our education system through its curriculum and PC appears to be ashamed rather than proud of who we are and where we came from.

    • Truckle the Uncivil says:

      03:30pm | 15/03/11

      “....but the curriculum writers refuse to acknowledge that such ethical values are culturally specific and can only be understood in Australia in the context of the Western tradition.”

      The author clearly needs an education.  He appears to have never heard of Buddhism and be exceedingly culturally biased.  There are no principles in Christianity that have not been taught and practised for thousands of years prior to its creation.  Ah, well. I suppose “ignorance is bliss.”

    • notSue says:

      04:34pm | 15/03/11

      Well said Truckle . Buddhism (as one example) predates Christianity by 500 years or so. Took the words, etc.
      I’d say he was religiously biased, which has twisted an otherwise worthy discussion about curricula in this country.

    • notSue says:

      04:57pm | 15/03/11

      Well said Truckle . Buddhism (as one example) predates Christianity by 500 years or so. Took the words, etc.
      I’d say he was more religiously biased, which has twisted an otherwise valid discussion about curricula in this country.

    • NotSue says:

      05:46pm | 15/03/11

      Oopsy, double post…. must be after wine-o’clock!

    • Alex says:

      04:00pm | 15/03/11

      Let’s also re-write the calendar: BD and AD. Before dinosaurs and after. Makes sense.

      What an idiotic idea, it’s BC and AD, there is no alternative.

    • malohi says:

      07:27pm | 15/03/11

      Lol,
      Children read books about both Jesus and dinosaurs. Both spawn exciting fictional storys (jurassic park, water into wine etc.) Both jesus and dinosaurs have left legacies which are studied and argued over by historians, archeologists and theologists.
      Except there is actual evidence that dinosaurs existed.
      BD and AD sounds good.
      Unless you want to meet half way, in that case “before/after raptor jesus [brj]/[arj]” has a good ring to it.

    • Ruben says:

      04:02pm | 15/03/11

      Although I disagree with any religion being taught in schools (there are simply too many different backgrounds), I think teaching of Westminster Government and other relatable topics is definitely a must.

    • Dan says:

      04:05pm | 15/03/11

      To everyone who is upset that a “fictional” God is taught in our Schools, how do you also feel about the fictional man made climate change also being preached

    • Truckle the Uncivil says:

      04:47pm | 15/03/11

      Thing is Dan,  climate change is not a fiction but a fact.  If you don’t believe the experts then connect the dots yourself.  Being an atheist I am a skeptic.  My belief is always in abeyance until I can get to the facts to examine them myself.  That does not mean I am always correct but I have a pretty high hit-rate.  One problem here is that both deniers and over-promoters lead us down a path that will result in, quite literally, billions of deaths.

      Think carefully, are you willing to shoulder your share of the responsibility for this?  What will your real god say to you when “you stand before his throne”.  Were you not given responsibility for the stewardship of this earth?  Not that I believe a word of it but I would ask you for consistency.

    • michael j says:

      04:48pm | 15/03/11

      Yeah pretty good Dan,helps me sleep at night, knowing Santa-Claus has got everything under control,,

    • Andrew Pepper says:

      10:38pm | 15/03/11

      Wow Dan,  These climate change guys are tootin’ Al Gores proverbial horn a little aren’t they?  Perhaps this fantastic carbon tax will alleviate their worries…or at least their wallets.  Perhaps as they dribble the climate change “proof” from their beloved and truth allergic UN documents someone would like to point out to them that the same “scientists” were predicting an ice age in the 80’s.

      Even better can they explain why over 30,000 scientists (over 9,000 with PhDs) have rejected man made carbon emissions or greenhouse gasses as a cause fore global warming.

    • Jo says:

      04:11pm | 15/03/11

      Mr Donnelly,

      Thank you for your article.

      Based on my perusal of this blog it seems a large number of responses are from products of the current woeful education system.

      Very hard to turn the wheels back on this one, when so few have been educated well and fewer are able to objectively critique a balanced historically accurate curriculum.

    • History Teacher says:

      04:37pm | 15/03/11

      Ah the irony… Christian history is very much glossed over in the teachings of Christianity itself.

      Ask your average Christian about the early history of their religion and the answer is exceedingly limited. They often know everything about the life of Jesus, and then nothing how the religion itself propagated. Moreover, they don’t even know when the bible was written. Similarly, very few Christians will offer any sort of opinion on the veracity of the books of the bible, despite this being of some debate - particularly Hebrews for eg.

      It seems a bit hypocritical to rebuke the lack of Christian history taught in schools when the vast majority of teachings in the Church tend to ignore the history of its own religion.

    • Graham says:

      11:13pm | 15/03/11

      Okay “History Teacher”. Let’s see if you can answer an apparently simple question. When was the Bible written?

      And do you really think a Christian who knows “everything” about the life of Jesus really has no idea about the Book of Acts which describes the way Christianity was propogated?!

    • History Teacher says:

      07:55am | 16/03/11

      My point was about the average Christian, Graham. The story of Jesus is well-known, because it is taught extensively. The early history of Christianity is hardly taught at all.

      As for your question, the gospels were most likely written approximately 70-110 AD, the epistles of Paul approximately 50-70AD. The significant difference in time between the death of Jesus and the writing of the bible make these documents historically very questionable.

      History is not a strong point when it comes to Christianity.

    • True Believer says:

      12:37pm | 17/03/11

      @History ‘Teacher

      History is interesting to a degree, but Jesus is not confined to “history” nor is the Christian Church (that is, the body of His followers not denominational institutionalised “churches”). Jesus is in the here and now and the Christian Church is a alive and growing across the planet. Don’t be fooled by empty Western denominational buildings.  Christianity is the Body of Christ not a building.  It is very much alive and well.

    • A Einstein says:

      05:01pm | 15/03/11

      politically correct means do it how the jews want it done…........say NO to the school system which teaches false history,lies from politics ,bullshit war stories,and is controlled by foreign governments…....

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      05:09pm | 15/03/11

      If they want to learn about imaginary friends they can go to church.

    • Ian Campbell says:

      05:11pm | 15/03/11

      I thought that this was a discussion on the national school curriculum, not on Christianity, religious beliefs etc.
      My father had a very simple philosophy. Better to life your life as though there is a god & when you die find out that there isn’t, that to live your life as though there isn’t a god & when you die find out that there is.
      Here is Bill Gates’ rule for children of today.
      Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this!  To anyone with kids of any age, or anyone who has ever been a kid, here’s some advice Bill Gates recently dished out at a high school speech about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school.
       
      He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.
       
      Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it.
       
      Rule 2: The world won’t care about your self-esteem.  The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.
       
      Rule 3: You will NOT make $40,000 a year right out of high school.  You won’t be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.
       
      Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.
       
      Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity.  Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping—they called it opportunity.
       
      Rule 6: If you mess up, it’s not your parents’ fault, so don’t whine about your mistakes, learn from them.
       
      Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren’t as boring as they are now.  They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents’ generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.
       
      Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they’ll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer.  This doesn’t bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.
       
      Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don’t get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself.  Do that on your own time.
       
      Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.
       
      Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you’ll end up working for one.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      05:49pm | 15/03/11

      Rule 12: Don’t meet with Brian Burke or you’ll be considered ‘morally compromised’ by the Deputy PM and you’ll have to resign from Cabinet

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      05:12pm | 15/03/11

      One thing that has come out of this discussion is something I’ve often observed. It appears that the language within which you function is the cultural/linguistic group that is responsible for all the advancement in the world. Just like World Championship “sport” in the USA only involves US athletes. Take for instance World Championship Australian rules football.
      The US tries to do something about it at least at post graduate University level. If pursuing a PhD in the Us you have to learn another language and use it in your research. This is at least a start as most developmental discoveries are multi-loci.
      Hence it is important to consider the Aboriginal history as defenders against invasion; other religions; Arabic science history inter alia, and get away from the Anglo-centric view so prominent in Australia. for example Captain Cooke did not “discover” Australia there were people who really discovered it here already before Cooke “discovered” it.
      Shakespeare was not the only dramatist in the world, there were French, German, Italians, Indian, Chinese and Spanish ones too.
      To embrace only rabid Jadaeo-Christian Anglophilic pedagogies is a dangerous precursor to racism in a multicultural society which already leans dangerously toward Hansonism.
      This is not PC it’s just

    • Wayne says:

      05:16pm | 15/03/11

      Why so upset? It’s just another case of more expensive crap from an expensive and crap series of Ministers and Government.

    • Kirsten says:

      05:44pm | 15/03/11

      It is difficult to believe that in a country with students of such diverse backgrounds, that a single national curriculum could suited to all of them.  It is clear that students of certain socio-economic and/or ethnic backgrounds will be disadvantaged, whereas others will thrive on the proposed national curriculum.  Whilst perhaps difficult to implement, there must be flexibility in the curriculum, to ensure students of all backgrounds are able to reach their full potential.  The curriculum should assist all students develop a sense of self-worth and a broad perspective and understanding of the world, given their own experiences and cultural priorities.  Without having their own beliefs condemned or demoted, students can then learn tolerance and understanding of others beliefs and viewpoints - understanding there is not one correct way to view the world.  This should include religious, political and cultural issues.

    • acotrel says:

      09:49pm | 15/03/11

      @kIrsten
      ‘It is difficult to believe that in a country with students of such diverse backgrounds, that a single national curriculum could suited to all of them.’
      So you don’t believe in standardisation?  The curriculum is only a skeleton, if you want to exceed it, surely that’s your business?

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      05:51pm | 15/03/11

      What is it about BC and AD that there can’t be an alternative.
      BC is before Christ - a purely arbitrary guess about when the Godling was actual born if he was.
      Many cultures have alternative calendars and except the year 0 was actually when - 2011 years ago. Just like Greenwhich time now called the Universal time it matters bugger all from whence we start counting.

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      05:54pm | 15/03/11

      No alternative to BC and AD? What did the cultures do before BC? did they actually predict the birth of the Godling reckon their time from then.

      “I am Pharaoh Akenaten in the year 2 341 before Christ will be born on Tuesday May 22.”

    • Johan says:

      06:16pm | 15/03/11

      Education, not fantasies and myths. Keep religion out of schools.

    • Barbara J Harrison says:

      06:18pm | 15/03/11

      enough said. labor breeds a nation of non thinkers so they will always be in power. education no longer has any depth.  This country is screwed. we are so out of here.

    • Might Bosh says:

      09:35pm | 15/03/11

      And you must be a classic example of this. So in your view it was the ALP that forced Howard to cut funding to public schools in favour of private schools. If you are going to be migrating to a different country be advised that most have written tests to pass which you have shown that you are incapable of passing since you need to be able to read and understand the question.

      It is good to see that you don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant

    • german_breed says:

      06:25pm | 15/03/11

      mary says:
      When I lived in Europe I was surprised to find that in German schools. at the time, the holocaust was not mentioned in any of their history books.

      Maybe you attend the german school before 1945 - but in the last 40 years was a big part of the historical education about the holocaust.
      Additional to the be-weekly tv series.

    • stephen says:

      07:41pm | 15/03/11

      Quite true.
      The reason neo-nazis are a problem, ( which did not originate in Germany post WWII, and which are a different mettle than the first version, and which may need a different respose) is to do with serious crime cells in Russia and generally in Eastern Europe.
      It’s common knowledge that after Terrorism, crime, and the associated political affiliations, are the West’s major concerns.

    • mary says:

      10:55pm | 15/03/11

      I’m not German but visited occasionally, meeting with German friends in their teens and twenties in the sixties. These friends at the time were (or according to you? pretended to be?) blissfully unaware of the holocaust.

    • michael j says:

      06:40pm | 15/03/11

      IT is plain to see that division amongst the few people who have commented on this, that there is much,sometimes fierce opposition to different ideas on Religion,,the olde testerment teachings say an Angel named LUCIFER or in an earthly form knowen as Satan is charged with destroying this planet ,,,
      scientist say less than 40 km straight up we cannot survive
      scientist say around 2100 climate change will make this planet
      very difficult to live on
      scientist say in 2048 ,4 BILLION people will die of starvation because food production methods are not suited to the dwindling supply of oil
      all people should have access to all information and choose how they use it
      nothing should be forced on anyone,,but we must soon realise that the
      decisions we are taking now for our children will probably decide the
      fate of the Human Species
      there is no forgiveness that i need but leaving something nice for the kids would be good,,

    • Bloggs says:

      06:43pm | 15/03/11

      Many of you miss the point entirely.  But that’s not a surprise.

      The point is that kids are not educated well and traditional values like maths, science, English language usage and writing, spelling, etc are substandard.  You only need to look into these blog postings at how the language is misused and mis-spelt and generally bastardised simply because teachers and Gen Y are all too lazy to get it right.

      Religious teaching is traditional in Australia - or was until the last years - and whilst the actual religion is not important to people like me it is the values that religion teaches.  Islam, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc are all fine religions on the surface that in their pure form will teach a set of family and behaviours values that are getting increasingly lost as Gen Y (and others) sink into a cultural sludge. 

      That’s the point of it all.

    • malohi says:

      11:21pm | 15/03/11

      Perhaps it is you that misses the more important point which was quite frightfully raised by the article.

      That hiding religion(christian, specifically)in amongst the maths and the science under the guise that it teaches the values you hold dear, is a frightening prospect. Religion (any) should have no place near a national curriculum for education, and certainly not forced near children by the state.
      The impact of religion should be left for high school history and study of religion classes, and then only in its historical context. Any suggestion that kids should be force fed values as you suggest via indoctination is abhorrent and raises the type of ire that you seem to think is off point.

      “But that’s not a surprise”, the abilities of lateral thinking and reading between the lines do not come easy to the religious.

    • kris says:

      06:54pm | 15/03/11

      I am happy with the curriculum denounced in this article for my children but i would prefer more time on IT. Focusing on christianity does not promote a global educational perspective to better suit the needs of the next generation.

    • Bloggs says:

      07:25pm | 15/03/11

      Focus on IT.  It doesn’t matter if they can spell or manage themselves or have a good set of life values - as long as they know some IT.  Yep, that’s the way it goes down the plug hole.

      I work in IT and the average ability to speak and spell of young IT people is appalling.  It’s a mess and has a lot do do with why so many IT projects fail badly (see Qld Health as a fine example).  The people have good degrees, they say, but cannot manage themselves or their products very well at all.

      Professionalism lost is the price you pay for this attitude.

    • kris says:

      10:20pm | 15/03/11

      What a ridiculous notion to suggest that I meant to not also focus on literacy and other laudable educational goals. I simply meant that I disagree with the author’s opinion that an already minor part of the curriculum is rather unimportant. I disagree that IT skills are unimportant and I think they should be recognised as essential.

    • John M says:

      07:06pm | 15/03/11

      Curriculum should be about what is taught eg Religion (or whatever the policically correct name is) then its up to the school to provide instruction according to its policitically correct religious mix.
      Curriculum should also be about exposing students to diversity.
      Neither is a requirement.

    • Cat says:

      07:55pm | 15/03/11

      oh the poor christians - it must be so hard to continually confuse making room for EVERYONE in society rather than JUST Christian beliefs as opression, rather than the lifting of opression that it actually is.

    • Not an Idiot says:

      08:25pm | 15/03/11

      LOL and some of you people think that science is the be all and end all…

    • Bloke says:

      08:40pm | 15/03/11

      Christ based values are the cornerstone of our culture.  That is a fact.  Our version of democracy is a Christian Democracy.  That is a fact.  We as a nation would not be as we are now without the strength of the Christian faith behind it.  Fact.  When disaster strikes and people pull together for a period but eventually return to normality (except those still recovering) who is still there patiently giving assistance and support without judgement or with a big noise in the community telling everyone they are out doing it?  Christians.  Fact.  If you think closely about our set of values and read the teachings of Jesus…

    • Truckle the Uncivil says:

      08:19am | 17/03/11

      Christ based values?  Never met a christian that followed them.  Never heard of one a christ based value that did not originate elsewhere.  So called christians are among the most judgemental people I ever met.

      Could you give a single example of a “christ based” value?

    • Lance says:

      08:46pm | 15/03/11

      With over 60% of Australians being Christian (couple of years out of date), why such a rabid anti Christianity movement in this country?  Surely we can allow Christians to have some christianity education too.  Sometimes I think in Australia which has become far too politically correct, if you believe in anything you are targeted and attacked. Don’t force athiests or other religious minorities to participate in Christan rituals or education, but surely we can allow the majourity of the country who are Christian to have access to such.

    • Carly says:

      09:49pm | 15/03/11

      @ Lance

      I don’t understand your comment- Christians DO have access to Christian education in private schools and churches.
      What Donelly is suggesting (and if you think he’s not, look closely at the words and phrases he uses) is a bigger emphasis on Christianity in schools- basically, forcing students to learn about Christianity even if they’re not interested.

      Why such rabid anti-Christianity?
      Maybe it’s because (some, not all) Christians want to prevent me from making intensely personal (and individual) choices based on their moral convictions (e.g. abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage).
      I think you’d find that if extreme Christians stopped pushing their agenda at the expense of others, the anti-Christian movement would disappear very quickly…
      And it does make me feel sorry for the other Christians who are quietly living out their lives as they wish, doing good, without imposing on others.

    • Cloak says:

      08:46pm | 15/03/11

      It’ s pretty obvious the vast majority of you failed to actually divine the point of this article (albeit couched in conservative rhetoric). The writer was not advocating religious studies, simply that education should be provided in its historic and sociological context. If you don’t understand the difference between the two perhaps you should abstain from commenting?
      (p.s sorry if this point has already been covered but I’m not reading 300+ comments)

    • Truckle the Uncivil says:

      08:25am | 17/03/11

      You didn’t read the posts and you still say “most”?  Oh for rationality…

    • Cloak says:

      07:57pm | 19/03/11

      Ever heard of a sample? It is not necessary to read every comment to identify a trend, in fact I would say that is a considerably more “rational” approach.

    • Richard says:

      08:54pm | 15/03/11

      I think alot of people are missing the point of the article which is that the historical significance of Christianity be acknowledged, likewise the British traditions on which our current society is based. You might not *like* them but they are fact - you can’t deny them.

      In an increasingly global world old school socialist parochialism is less tolerable. As much as you might despise this nation’s British traditions, you can’t polish a t*** as they say and no amount of Newspeak will hide the gaps in this curriculum when assessed on a world stage.

    • Pope says:

      09:00pm | 15/03/11

      Ha ha, no use to be homophobic against Christianity. Without it you would still be trying to eat your neighbours.

    • michael j says:

      09:40pm | 15/03/11

      With 4 billion people due to die of starvation in 2048 its probably going to take more than a belief in the bible to save the neighbours,,

    • Bruce says:

      09:06pm | 15/03/11

      Dear Mary…. you wrote… “But the principles as mentioned in my post, come from the Commandments and no other religion (I studied most of them) actually lays it out quite like that. Just those ten simple rules to live by.”

      If you had really studied “most” of the religions in this world of ours you would have realized that the Ten Commandments you speak of are in fact of the Jewish faith and pre-date Christianity by a few thousand years.

      To get back to the actual topic here, I do happen to think that a comparative study of all the major religions in socitey should be included in the curricula of all Australian schools in order to give historical and societal studies more depth. After all we would most likely get along far better if we understood each other more.

    • acotrel says:

      09:53pm | 15/03/11

      @Bruce I think the rule about ‘covetting’ should be omitted!  It’s so much fun!

    • Learn a little, goes a long way. says:

      09:06pm | 15/03/11

      I am stund at the school system, I knew nothing about the history of Australia when I left school. It wasn’t till well after school that I learnt about the bombing of Darwin and Newcastle. As for relgiuos learning, I think we should all learn a little of each religion, a little understanding goes a long way and may help in understanding each other

    • Max Redlands says:

      09:32pm | 15/03/11

      not an idiot - do we now add conspiritonal laughter LOL?? ha .. ha ...ha.. .last time i looked in mydictionary.com says science = knowledge and, while it took me awhile to figure it out, knowledge does = power…you just have to learn how to do the math…not an idiot? me thinks you might protest too much

    • Doh says:

      09:36pm | 15/03/11

      Observe the Leftist rewriting of history which if allowed to continue will have us believing that Winston Churchill forced Stalin to kill his own people and massacre the Europeans in Eastern Europe.

      Watch them also re-write Gough Whitlam as a financial giant, John Howard as a Paris Hilton and Che as a child hugging Humphrey B Bear.

      Sick…..

    • Petery says:

      11:08pm | 20/03/11

      @Doh.
      You invent three or four fictitious historical facts and opinions , and hypothetically suggest that these rewritings are truly believed by so called leftists whom you obviously hate.When Henry Ford declared that History was bunk,he was obviously talking about the stuff you just said. Bad attempts at satire are not History.

      Despite what you appear to believe,  the so called Right is often wrong,just as the so called Left is not always Right.There are some Right wingers who hold left wing opinions, and some left wingers who veer to the Right. No one on either side is always Right, but quite a few who are always wrong. I will leave it to others   to figure out which of these two, your nonsensical hypothetical rewritings fit .

      In fact people who simplemindedly stereotype facts and opinions   into right and left categories   often seem to be very confused about what they think History is,  and actually   do not seem to know their Right from their Left.

      In fact here there are a quite a number of people who seem to make Homer Simpson look like an intellectual. And he is not Right or Left wing, but a simple Dingaling.

    • Brett says:

      09:45pm | 15/03/11

      The PC experiment failed long ago and it has long ceased to be an experiment and has become instead a religion.

      Like all other religions however, its proponents become more vehement in their beliefs when faced with overwhelming evidence of the futility of their rituals, or so called ‘programs’ in the jargon of the PC-Religion .

      The disciples of PC are the self styled, ‘True Believers’. Which is another way of saying that they would believe anything.

      Its nothing new that religion would seek to infest education. It was so at the dawn of the age of universities, it continued into the religious school system and now the PC crowd want to infuse the entire education system with their own brand of codified madness.

      If they succeed, the product of the PC education system, the anointed, will either be people shrewd enough to work the system and climb to the top of the heap, or, they will be bona fide religious fools like their mentors.

      In any case, the non PC world, the world of the Technocrats (China perhaps) will call the shots.

      As for the PC grads, the shrewd ones and also the ones gullible enough,  the world of reality may still choose to keep some as pets.

    • mary says:

      10:25pm | 15/03/11

      Thank you Bruce, you are absolutely right. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty though .. Jesus, a Jew, followed the Commandments.

      The majority of Christians however profess to follow Jesus but in fact follow the thirteenth apostle.
      The confusion lies in the fact that one would expect a person who calls themselves a Christian to be following Christ and biblical guidelines but in fact most (of the ones I’ve met) follow church doctrine and false apostles. As such many Christians tend to believe that they are made holy by simply ‘believing’ and in the process give God and his son a bad rap. But that’s another story. 

      Rather unfriendly and untrue to state that I’m off topic when I’m simply putting in my two cents worth re the actual topic of education, history and our Judeo-Christian heritage.

    • The Arts. says:

      10:46pm | 15/03/11

      I’m quite concerned about the funding for the arts programs (music in particular) from a primary/secondary level being cut constantly. The teachers find themselves confined to follow a curriculum which actually kills the creativity in musicians and demotivates us a great deal. Music (as well as other artistic forms) is part of the backbone of Western Civilization and part of our identity as a nation.

    • Trude says:

      10:51pm | 15/03/11

      Sounds like a sensible curriculum, based on education of facts rather than faiths. Good!

    • Lu says:

      11:03pm | 15/03/11

      What on earth is wrong with teaching children values education including; honesty, integrity and everyones right to a fair go without needing to tie it to a religion? Religion has single-handedly been responsible for every war AD! It is this irrepressable need to shove your beliefs down everyones’ throat (including other peoples’ children) that causes all the disharmony. enough. Let Aussie be our religion…commandments anyone?...1. Thou shall not covet thy neighbours’....tinny?

    • Ben says:

      11:23pm | 15/03/11

      exactly where is this coming from? australia ranks equal top of all countries in the world in the UN education index. does the writer have a source more knowledgeable than the UN?

    • John says:

      11:32pm | 15/03/11

      In the EU constitution Christianity was not given a special place. It was just seen as another religion. This most likely because the EU is run and dominated by Marxists. Look at the head of the EU manuel barroso was Maoist Marxist in his youth. I suspect the EU is a Marxist plot. The west has basically turning Marxist since WWII, atheism is growing, anti-christianity sentiment is growing because of the relentless assault by liberal Marxist intellectuals, most western media organizations are part of plot, attacking the catholic church.  The Western Politicians seem to be going with the agenda, they are also supporting cooperation’s and powerful small interest groups in sending western men to die in Afghanistan and Iraq for their interests alone.

    • David the wise says:

      12:11am | 16/03/11

      Several years ago the QLD education system made Newtonian law an “option” in high school science studies. The “ecological effects of capitalism and consumerism” was determined to be compulsory!!! Talk about political indoctrination! The left wingers are in the education system rewriting history. They teach our kids that the rise of christianity heralded the the “dark ages” in Western Europe. The reality is that Christian Monastaries were the beacons of light and knowlege after the fall of Rome, and the so called “dark ages” rode in on the back of invading barbarian armies who were totally PAGAN. Yet educators today portray Pagans as fun loving (hippy) nature worshippers who pray to trees and butterflies and dance naked around (non-carbon polluting) fires during the equinox praying to “mother Gaia”. The reality is that Pagans were far for barbarous than the early Christians (dont get me wrong the Christians did some bad things too). Educators love to describe the evil committed by Cortez but never mention the mass human sacrifices carried out by Montezuma! That wouldnt be politically correct!  I remeber well in my various university courses being TOLD how the problems of the world were caused by the evils of men, of course my lecturers were lesbians and feminists (feminazis). Our schools and universities are no longer places of knowlege, questioning and learning, just institutions were left-wing (qu)academics indoctrinate and push their beliefs barrows onto our children. And those who dare to question their authority are labelled “racists” and “deniers”. Question so called man made climate change and listen to the chorus of screams cursing you in the name of their god “mother Gaia” , though they will deny they are religious. Ps I am an atheist myself but I am smart enough to realize that not everyone shares my views, but I still have strong friendships with many Christian and Muslim people.

    • John in Alice says:

      12:23am | 16/03/11

      I’m a Christian and find the idea of introducing religion in any public school simply ridiculous.  That is the job of the church of your choice and the parents.
      One only has to look at the number of alcoholics in this country as well as a total lack of morals and integrity in our society to see that most religious instruction has been useless and makes as much sense as teaching photography to the blind.
      Indeed - if there is any sign of “Christian” influence in Australian society it must be the bleeding hearts who work to see our violent, antisocial offenders back on our streets with a mere slap on the wrist.

    • Callisto says:

      12:36am | 16/03/11

      There is no such thing as an atheist. Even they believe in something…usually their own inflated sense of self superiority.
      The article isn’t about scripture in schools, it’s about a school curriculum, namely relating to other subjects like history (modern and ancient in schools). Why should political correctness or Gillard’s atheism take priority? What happens in atheist societies? I’ll tell you: people become numbers/machines/non entities, as they are in China, and some politicians, like Julia Gillard, who has essentially told America that we are their slaves, seek to reshuffle society according to their perceived agenda (economic usually). To me, Julia Gillard is copying Maggie Thatcher -a little too late perhaps.

    • Brett RC says:

      12:49am | 16/03/11

      Only this i got to say is (bit long winded) Everyone should just respect each others wishes and i do no support religious teaching in high school, FACT A. There are religious schools out there and if you truly want you son/daughter to believe in that faith and they want to as well and agree to going to a school such as, then you will find a way an old saying i heard, Faith Manages. 

      Fact B: Teaching religion in high school will just make the kids think that its expected of them to become that religion, i grew up in a christian family and while i respect the beliefs of the religion and the people i do not believe in them myself,  I came to refuse the religion in my heart because of it was expected of me to come to church. IF you had a kid which would you want, them to join a religion of their choosing or repress a part of themselves to go into a religion they feel no faith towards or maybe like i was, feel a reverance but not a faith towards it

      FACT C There are too many different religions if we start teaching one religion in public schools then why not the rest of them, before you know it we have to accomodate for (just mentioning the names guys sorry if it sounds as if im using them in an accusatory manner) Jewish, Mormonism, Witnesses, Brotherhood, Scientology, Born again christians, Catholism, all the offshoots from the last 2, Muslim, Hinduism (although come on kali would be interesting). The way to avoid problems including religious based bullying in schools is to either go to religious based schools of your choosing or send them into the general public system and drag them to church with you and as i said in fact a if you have faith then it shouldnt be a problem

      I am not trying to be prejudice against any believe but i am open minded to everything i take to good of what i know from each religion but i also remember the bad, for instance the muslim teaching says everyone other than muslims are infidels, catholism says that all non catholics are pagans, and also i know of a certain canon that was made in the 1700s i believe it was stating that women have no souls and are there only for procreation, hence why they couldnt vote for ages and why men treated them like rubbish and has not yet to this day been repealed.to scientologists were all Thetans, and i know their a bit out there but i respect their beliefs and ideals but not the order itself. and even though i came to have a grudge against christianity i still respect it and i dont hold any ill will to any followers of any religion and i certainly respect their believes enough to not be intolerant of them practicing it or following any faith

      Australia is the land of multi cultural diversity and the spirits of all the countries around the world uniting and as someone who remembers the schoolyard vividly i can say now that bringing in religious teachings will just be a bad move for the students that are not of that faith and a bad move for the school due to all the trouble now i am not saying that religion causes fights, its man that causes fights
      Im sure that Pope Urban II when he responded to a plee for aid repelling the turks from the holy city did not intend for it to turn into the war that it did, i know part of the problem was that there were preachers from the western culture that at the time were accepted and tolerant of others preaching their own religions next to them, but then they tried to drive them away so the western culture would be the only one there, that was a pebble that helped start the avalanche

      so to sum it up and leave the rest of my thoughts unspoken to start teaching religion in schools would be like setting fuel to a flame, too much friction between different faiths and we all know what kids are like young stupid and raring to go

      signing off Respectfully tolerant but wary citizen

    • wa says:

      01:19am | 16/03/11

      We are a secular society so stop trying to push your christian rubbish down everyone’s throats.  I am so sick of it!  can’t you get believers without forcing people into it!

    • John says:

      07:34am | 16/03/11

      Go on you-tube and watch the 7 woes by Jesus Christ.

      Tell me this rubbish after you watch it! The west can not hate Christ, as he is the embodiment of the law and justice. To go against the truth is to go with the lie. The West today is starting to go down the path of the lie. We know this because of the way politicians lie today, they are also committing a heap of injustices in Iraq, Afghanistan. Bankers are also committing injustices. Who knows of other injustices committed!

    • Old Wil says:

      06:15am | 16/03/11

      God doesn’t need defending. Religions are man’s interpretation/spin on how God’s word can be best adapted to their own ends.

      The Bible is a a pretty good educator in it’s own right. After all, aren’t many of society’s laws based on the ten commandments?

      As far as education goes.. yes the standard in this country is poor, but it’s the report card I get from God that I’m worried about.

    • John says:

      07:13am | 16/03/11

      We have replaced the religion of Christianity with Marxism. Atheism is really a Marxist offshoot. The difference between christian and Marxist religion is that christianity has warmth, logic and truth where Marxism has coldness, animalistic, no logic, arrogant and lies(You could even class Marxism as a mental illness, some form of delusion). This is why the Marxists put half of Berlin in a giant marxist cage, savagely murdered 40 million Christian Russians, oppressed Christian Eastern Europe with marxist terror and savagely raped Christian German women in Berlin. Those attacking Christianity seem to base themselves off this Satanic Red Marxist religion. It’s utterly sick.

    • Michael K says:

      09:50am | 16/03/11

      That’s true, John. The advocacy of rape in ‘Judges 19:24’ really highlights the warmth and logic of Christianity.

      John, you seem to also be mistaking atheism for religion. There’s no faith involved in atheism: Darwinism is not a belief; it is scientific fact. Also, when Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels authored The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital I highly doubt they had Josef Stalin in-mind as the leader of their idealistic Communist society.

    • Danielle says:

      07:27am | 16/03/11

      I have my own problems with the National Curriculum (Diminishing of the Arts, overly focused on technology and excessive testing, and the fact that the curriculum is very dumbed-down compared to the strong curriculums of NSW and Vic) but a lack of emphasis on Christianity is not one of them. We are not a Christian country and I am a firm believer in keeping religion out of politics and out of schools. I’d like to keep politics out of schools too but sadly that looks unlikely to happen.

    • kathy says:

      07:32am | 16/03/11

      Religion should be banned from all public schools.  All it does is cause hatred. The sooner we introduce the rules the French have gone with - no religion or religious articles to be worn at school.. The better we will be.  If people want to practice their religion do it at home in your own time and dont push your belief system on me.

    • andre says:

      08:21am | 16/03/11

      Unfotunately Kathy, you can not ban religion from schools entirely. if you want to teach your children anything about reality, at certain point you have to explaint to them where the Universe and life came from. And that is a domain of religion. You can use Bible as an explanation of the origin of cosmos ,or you can use religion of Darwin,supported its claims it with long list of sciettific frauds . Some of such frauds of science of evolutionism was Piltdown Man an man skull with ape jaw mounted together and painted brown. It was standing as a proof of evolution for 40 years.Nebraska Man   whose life stories were based on finding just one pig’s tooth , peppered moth fraud where mr Kettlewell , the peretrator,glued some of the specimens of the white moth to dark tree trunks to support his evolutionary scientific cravings. or the “scientific” theory of recapitulation by fraudster Haeckel. haclek in spite of being utterlu rejected by scientoist is still in the biology textbooks.
      The choice is yours…

    • Tom Daly says:

      07:35am | 16/03/11

      To Mr True Believer.  I am not disappointed you have rejected me as your
      brother, I was only referring to the fact that we are probably descended from
      a pair of apes many moons ago. Sorry , it was a case of missive licence, I thought it may be suitable as did not , or does not , your religion or cult, not
      much separates them! consider all others brothers, deluded or not ? At this
      time I call myself undeluded , having not yet crossed , into the pre promised land, in preparation for the real thing. As a matter of fact I think I will keep my present status, as the deluded seem to be on another planet.. Religion has given us many things ,  most have not been real flash and not improving in
      outlook. The peace on Earth has been truant, with too many clerics reading too many different books with differing opinions on what is peace.  I know
      it is in the soul , yet we are overun by the numerous Gods cobblers,  busy
      resouling., which may be a reminder for you to check your diary. That other planet you are on, could it be you are already in the promised land, only it
      has not been made public yet, perish the thought eh !

    • Andre says:

      08:09am | 16/03/11

      Dear Tom Daly , unfortunately you are quite deluded thinking that you descended some moons ago from a pair of apes,even if you say you are not.Delusion like yours is a result of lacking basic knowledge in the subject of geology,physics, genetics,mathematic etc. Because of lack of mentioned kowledge,poeple like you readily accept Dawkins’ argument : ” if you do not believe in evolution you are insane”.Dawkins of course use this argument ecause he can not produce any valid scientific experiment proving the Aksiom Number One : darwinism is a scientific fact.

    • True Believer says:

      12:35pm | 16/03/11

      @Tom Daly

      I did not reject you. You inferred I was your “brother” - I am happy to be your sister but unable to be your brother - that is what I meant about assumptions - some bloggers seem to think Punch is the domain of male only readers. :0) 

      However, if you descended from an ape, sorry but we are not related. My ancestors did not climb out of the swamp or hang from trees and I do not subscribe to Darwin’s (poor tormented and physically ill soul that he was) theory which suggests such. I know the theory is forced down everyone’s throat as ‘fact’ but it has a lot of holes in it.  If it makes you happy though far be if from me to interrupt your reverie with the Truth I know. :0)

      As I say to many of my critics and sadly, yes there seem to be many, I am not the slightest bit interested in “religion” - man-made, not for me. Nope I will stick with He whom I know - Jesus said “I am the Way the Truth and the Life” and I know that beyond a doubt to be true. 

      You talk about what man does with God’s Word - don’t assume God agrees with their interpretations.  Men are fallible, no matter how learned or puffed up with pride they may be.

    • Alex Stanford says:

      08:29am | 16/03/11

      Those who want Christianity imposed on school kids are just political bullies. They can’t convince most of the population to support their agenda of treating women as door mats or their gay hatred, so they think brain washing kids might get them across the line.
      Truely sick.

    • Monique says:

      08:40am | 16/03/11

      Too many people missing the point here.  School should be about learning reading, writing, arithmetic, Australian history with full facts not bias, global history, geography, and very importantly, the rudiments of good behaviour, respect for oneself and of others, and good manners. Bullying should be highlighted and punished as disgusting behaviour and not accepted as the norm, which it is fast becoming.  School should be about facts and figures whether pertaining to the past or the present.  Religion and Politics should be kept out of schools as both of these subjects could lead to brain washing at an early age.  Religion is personal and as such should be taught at home and within that family’s church group.  Politics should be left to the individual to study and learn when they are approaching the age of being able to vote.  So many parents are struggling with school age children who are rebelling against the good indoctrines of the parents which are not followed through within their school education.  It is not just the school curriculum that should be addressed.  The teaching of correct and responsible behaviour of our children should also be addressed.  It is small wonder that more and more parents are turning to home schooling in an effort to be able to steer their children in a more appropriate direction and to protect them from the increasing unchecked bullying that now prevails in our schools.

    • Roden says:

      09:06am | 16/03/11

      This Labor government is embarrased about Australia’s past. Their belief is they can make the wrongs right by ignoring them and making sure our children know nothing about the past. This Labor government trying to wipe out any reference to the British, Chistianity, World Wars, Kokoda, Gallipoli, the Westminster system and its role in our Government is disgusting and shows their immaturity as a party. This Labor Government is the embarrassment and I find them repugnant and unAustralian.

    • andre says:

      08:45am | 17/03/11

      well said. apart from Labor policy of tolerance for anything except of christian values , anti christian , anti family , trans gender and occultic messages are being peddled by media and idols of contemporary music.

    • Michael K says:

      09:30am | 16/03/11

      In Europe during the Dark Ages the most literate individuals - the church’s clerics and the religiously devout - shamefully devoted much of their writings and time to decrying human “sin.” One is left to imagine what wondrous historical documents might be left to us if literacy hadn’t so often been wasted on those men who could hardly appreciate such a skill. Today, one might still wonder what notable contributions ostensibly intelligent men like Kevin Donnelly could make if their minds weren’t clouded by religiosity. For one, Donnelly might be “Punching On” for the National History Curriculum to be based around observing the long struggle of Indigenous and European civilization with the harsh Australian landscape and how the the great geographical distance from the traditional halls of global power have irreversibly shaped our national philosophy, government, economy and foreign policy. Instead, Punch readers get this meandering, near-xenophobic drivel. Such is the contribution of religion.

    • Tavia Seymour says:

      10:43am | 16/03/11

      Excellent article. As a teacher I wish the writer was on the panel deciding our curriculum.

    • jcomans says:

      10:46am | 16/03/11

      So sorry for what happened to your piece Kevin. I was looking forward to the education debate as I too feel strongly about the cultural necessity of understanding where our actual roots lie, not making a few people feel better about the ‘traditional roamers of the land’.
      A lot of incredibly well educated and bright people come out of our system, but I feel many of them would turn out like that where ever they learnt.

    • Pugh says:

      12:39pm | 16/03/11

      Why is it that everyone assumes that to have a faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ means you must be a brainwashed retard?

      Surely if Jesus Christ is still alive it is easy to prove.

      Ask him.

    • AllanJ says:

      01:09pm | 16/03/11

      Kevin,
      Many thanks for your article which has hit the nail right on the head.

      I am most grateful that our way of life has its roots in British tradition.  We have inherited a stable system of government, an independent legal system and a high standard of ethical values based upon Christian belief and teachings.  I don’t for a moment feel that it gives us the right to feel superior or to act in a condescending manner towards any other human being.  What I do know is that we could have done a lot worse.

      While recognising that times change and we must change with the times, it is of utmost importance that we continue to cherish our roots and to be guided by them as our society evolves.  A cursory glance at human history and current political affairs shows us that as long as there is a dominant culture in a society, minorities will be treated well.  As soon as that dominant culture feels threatened (real or imagined) then trouble erupts.

      Fortunately this has, at least up till now, been handled reasonably well in Australia by giving careful thought to the management of the migrant intake.  With the proper balance in place we are able to welcome people from all backgrounds into a life of safety, freedom and prosperity.  This is in stark contrast to many of the countries from which they come.

      I am beginning to feel that, at last, we are growing out of that era of left-wing censorship, otherwise known as “political correctness,” and can discuss issues such as these freely and openly.

    • AllanJ says:

      02:20pm | 16/03/11

      My apologies.  That message got mixed up with another one.  This is what I meant to say.

      Kevin,
      Many thanks for your article which has hit the nail right on the head.

      I am most grateful that our way of life has its roots in British tradition.  We have inherited a stable system of government, an independent legal system and a high standard of ethical values based upon Christian belief and teachings.  I don’t for a moment feel that it gives us the right to feel superior or to act in a condescending manner towards any other human being.  What I do know is that we could have done a lot worse.

      While recognising that times change and we must change with the times, it is of utmost importance that we continue to cherish our roots and to be guided by them as our society evolves.  What our education hierarchy and our self-styled intellectual elite is trying to do is take our next generation away from their roots and down untrodden pathways which are defined by them and which are, mostly, nothing but transient “fads.”

      If we want to explore new pathways it is imperative that we know precisely where we are starting from.  Simply because something is new or different does not mean that it is going to benefit anyone.  Our thinking and our society will evolve of it own accord and in accord with its own needs because it has been soundly based upon what we have absorbed from our roots and have gained through living it out.  We don’t need the assistance of these self-proclaimed “experts” to know what is for the common good.

    • Kevin says:

      04:44pm | 16/03/11

      So far it has produced the most racist country in the developed world. Now the St James ethic centre are going to take things to the next level of selectivity. Education in Australia is selective and racist and the whole world already knows even if white Australia don’t.

    • DMc says:

      06:12pm | 16/03/11

      If you seriously think Australia is “the most racist country in the developed world” you obviously haven’t travelled much.

      For example, Denmark, “requires anyone wishing to marry a Danish citizen to post a bond of $11,600, while the foreigner needs pass a language and knowledge test.  Both the Danish citizen and the foreigner need to be at least 24 years of age and both need to demonstrate an attachment to Denmark greater than an attachment to any other country.

      “The Danish citizen must also own accomodations large enough so that both people can live comfortably. “

      http://allmediany.com/details_article.php?article_id=12&art_id=459

    • AllanJ says:

      07:02pm | 16/03/11

      By any standards, Australia is one of the most tolerant, non-racist societies on the face of this planet.  We have successfully absorbed migrants from all corners of the earth over a long period of time.  Over the last 50 years, I have worked with more nationalities than I can remember.  Before the word “multiculturalism” was coined we were working harmoniously together without ever having to give it much thought.  People were respected for what they were not because of the colour of their skin or the country of their birth.

      The only thing that had any negative impact upon this state of affairs was official, government-sponsored multiculturalism.  Suddenly we were being told that we were a deeply racist nation and that special legislative measures had to be taken to curb the mistreatment of members of migrant racial groups for which normal civil and workplace laws were inadequate.  Some politicians seeking the ethnic vote jumped enthusiastically on to the bandwagon so that they could be seen to fix what was really a non-existent problem.  To this day we are told that the purpose of “multiculturalism” is to “fight racism.”

      I felt that all Australians both immigrants and those born here were and are being insulted by this.  The many, many immigrants with whom I have worked were not looking for any special consideration because of their country of origin.  Australians, almost universally, welcomed them and treated them just as they treated anyone else.

      The major effect of these claims of “racism” has been to create a consciousness of cultural differences in this country which is both unnecessary and counterproductive.  The most common epithet used against people who disagree with anything that is being said on these issues by people such as yourself, is “racist.”  This has become so ludicrously common that the real meaning and power of that word has been lost.

    • John says:

      08:44pm | 16/03/11

      Funny, the Term racist was created by a Radical Marxist Called Leon Trotsky. Maybe it has something to with class-warfare dictated by the Marxists that everyone was equal etc. But by the time the Bolsheviks took over the government the Russians finally realized they were duped, and in end there was a class above them that had the finer things while they were worked like slaves. Maybe that’s what racism is all about to create the idea that all are equal, but since some won’t swallow it, you call them racists. Religious, Cultural and Genetic expression are all different throughout society. One entity despises some of the these forms of expression and criticizes them, but he gets shut down by the system. So it seems anti-racism has already made up their minds “That everyone is equal” this is seen as an enforced. Its like a social truth! which can not be debated! even in our democratic society. If anti-racism is untrue, that means the majority of western society is living a lie and expressing a lie.

    • Sam says:

      08:17pm | 16/03/11

      Does the author genuinely believe that the idea of “moral integrity…can only be understood in Australia in the context of the Western tradition”?

      Scary stuff, and incontrovertible proof that a curriculum like this one is needed to prevent the next generation falling into the same trap. That attitude is straight out of the Nineteenth Century, and would have looked a little dated even then…

    • Luke says:

      11:49pm | 16/03/11

      Classical philosophy is missing from todays schools.
      It is all that is missing…
      Why plato and aristotle are considered “too confusing” or “not important” is beyond me…
      The whole university culture of Europe and the US was built on them.
      The whole society was built by people trained in them.
      NOT teaching them keep students amused in confusion until they hit university i suppose

    • Tom Daly says:

      07:33am | 17/03/11

      A final word to “True Believer” and Andre.  True Believer , you choose to use a nom de plume, this alone means an assumption must be made as to your gender, yet it matters not what you are, it is your opinion you are putting forward and I do the same using, my own name , believing what I say and having the courage of my convictions. Whether I am deluded or not , is also
      a matter of opinion, however you seem to complicated and trivial to me , I have decided to cease theis public correspondence on the subject. To Andre pick up those history books and reference files and get back to us
      when you have an opinion one way or the other , not quoting some guru. also probably on another planet with a theory. If this sounds confusing to
      you Andre , it’s because , I have no idea what you stand for and you must
      take some of the blame for this, you are technicolouring black and white.

    • True Believer says:

      09:10am | 17/03/11

      @Tom Daly

      Thank you for your comment and discussion.  Why your “assumption” needs to be made in favour of only one half of the population is interesting? 

      Your opinion of me (” you seem to complicated and trivial to me”) is just that and bears not the slightest relationship to who I really am.

      You choose to terminate discussion with me, your choice, I have no problem with that.

    • andre says:

      11:54am | 17/03/11

      hmmmmm ..i thought i spelled out my opinion on the topic quite clearly 1. Darwinism taught at school is not science , it is a philosophy masqueraded a science.
      2. One has to come across religion when explaining origins of the reality to children in class and the choice is only between purposeful creation by benevolent God or darwinian evolution of hydrogen into water and then into people over long eons of time,as a result of accidental , mindless explosion.
      Accordingly, the first choice sets some values,gives one a purpose and hope in life and a specifies how to treat others .The secon choice implies no value on life and therefore on other people because if chimpanzee is your cousin then who sets the rules? Bob is your uncle   !!!

    • You only live once, enjoy it. says:

      08:16am | 17/03/11

      This entire ‘discussion’ is the best proof I have ever seen that religion has no place in an education system. There should be a law to prevent children being brainwashed by ideology until they are old enough to make their own stupid mistakes in life. I wonder how long religion would last then?

    • MrEd says:

      10:01am | 17/03/11

      Including the “ideology” that it is all religions fault?

    • My 2 Cents says:

      10:36am | 17/03/11

      why must there always be an arguement.

      people you believe in god always will.
      people who dont believe wont.

      the only thing that will ever change this is if there is ever a proof as to whether god exist or not 100%

      why is it people have to push there beliefs onto everyone else no matter what it is. .

      i say get on with your lives

      im fresh outta school and i think schools need to work on all subjects whether or not religion is in there.

    • James says:

      10:51am | 17/03/11

      Bravo! If we taught basic maths and science better we may not have so many idiot climate science deniars and looney creationists running around causing trouble.

    • andre says:

      12:15pm | 17/03/11

      Very well James. If you knew maths , especially permutations , you ‘d be convinced that chance of accidental formation of DNA chain 200 nucleotides long is 1 in numerator and 4 to 200 power in denominator.
      For comparison,the number of all atoms in whole known universe is 10 to 81 power ,and human genome is 3.16 billion pairs of nucleotides long.
      If you knew physics you d know that accidental explosion of hydrogen out of nothing violates first an most importand rule of science , namely cause and effect, it also violates 1 st and 2 nd Law of Thermodynamics.
      If you knew biology you ‘d know that DNA does not form anywhere outside living cell. Some evolutionists want us to believe (Dawkins) that some crystalline clays formed first RNA. If that is the case then those clays are much more smerter than whole evolutionary academia today , because the academia can not create RNA using its brain and equipment in labs.
      And finally, some info on another evolutionary fraud. This one is called Orce man. His skull was hailed as of our another coveted evolutionary ancestor and it turned out to be skull of young ass….

    • James says:

      12:46pm | 17/03/11

      Know maths, know physics not so much biology and I know you don’t know enough to know that what you have written here is the reguritated ramblings of delusional religious types.

      Incidentally you clearly don’t know maths or physics if you did you would know that the probability of the “accidental” formation of DNA is 1 and your meaningless deterministic number for said probability is as mathematically valid as reading tea leaves.

      Checkmate

    • andre says:

      01:24pm | 17/03/11

      Looks like you are product of the curriculum then.
      “Evolution must have happened because you re there” .
      Sorry mate.Believing that something can came out of nothing and coding DNA can happen by coincidence is a move into a zone free of logic, reason and science.

    • James says:

      02:20pm | 17/03/11

      Ha ha you almost sound indignant, so instead of rock solid scientific explanations for the origins of life your answer is “God done it”, ha ha do you believe in Santa Clause too?

    • andre says:

      06:09pm | 17/03/11

      Ok,  provide rock solid evidence for big bang preferably from the lab, Provide rock solid evidence that species can change into another eg dinos changing into birds, name a process that produces information and then ads it to genomes as it is needed for evolutionary advances of hzdrogen towards humanity. If you can document that, you may have some base for your beliefs.
      And finally : link between dinosaurs and birds that was peddled as proof for evolution for many tears turned out to be another fraud.
      Tell me why evolutionist resort to frauds supporting their beliefs and preach this BS to school children? I guess a child who is not taught proper christian values,that you people are so uncomfortable with, is less likely to report advances of a pedophile or a homosexual to relevant authorities ? Correct me if I am wrong..

    • James says:

      08:08am | 18/03/11

      Evolution has passed every single test thrown at it as has the big bang theory, that is, no experiment yet performed has been able to invalidate it, this is the basis of science.  I suggest you discuss this with your imaginary friend as you try and turn lead into gold.  Oh and if you are talking to Santa I would like him to give me some of his magic fairy dust I can sprinkle on my car to make it fly.

    • andre says:

      07:18am | 19/03/11

      Yea…Bring an example of a test that Darwinism has passed.
      Darwin feared that lack of transitional fossils would be the biggest argument against his theory. Until today those mising links are still missing.
      Evolutionist Haldane said that existence of biological machines would effectively demolish Darwinism as evolution -  random process can not produce a machine.In hist time science did not know much about biological structures. Today we know that enzymes are those biological machines that Haldene was scared would demolish his faith.
      I guess then, the sanity of those believers in evolution that Dawkins postulated,  is a special kind of sanity - evolutionary sanity needed for understanding that evolution is true..

    • True Believer says:

      02:50pm | 17/03/11

      @James

      I think you will find “rock solid scientific explanations” are pretty porous.

      Jesus is the Rock - and He is Rock Solid as a foundation for real Life -if you prefer to see yourself as an elevated ape or recycled slime who am I to disenchant you with the Truth. :0)

    • James says:

      08:13am | 18/03/11

      Yippeeee for Jesus, look the character known as Jesus seems to be a top bloke except for one minor issue, he appears to have introduced hell as a concept, talk about fear campaign (come to think of it no wonder Tony Abbott is such a fan).

      Yes I am a species of Ape who evolved from a singled celled organism and proud of it, as my mum always said you’ve got to start from somewhere.

    • True Believer says:

      11:20am | 18/03/11

      @James

      Why do atheists always look for the negatives - Jesus brought unconditional love, forgiveness, compassion, and salvation.  Hell has always been there, He did not “introduce hell” as you put it.  He died so that you do not have to go there, unless you choose to.

      Mind you as you see yourself as an ape perhaps that renders you without a soul which can be saved. On the upside though you can always go to the vet if you cannot get into a doctor I guess as they are licensed to bring medicall assitance to animals.

      By the way, what did Darwin bring????  Think to bring the hopeslessness of atheism is a poor legacy I would have thought. 

      I will stick with Jesus, I know Him to be the Truth.  You go hang out on trees with your cousins mate. Enjoy!!  :0)

    • True Believer says:

      11:20am | 18/03/11

      @James

      Why do atheists always look for the negatives - Jesus brought unconditional love, forgiveness, compassion, and salvation.  Hell has always been there, He did not “introduce hell” as you put it.  He died so that you do not have to go there, unless you choose to.

      Mind you as you see yourself as an ape perhaps that renders you without a soul which can be saved. On the upside though you can always go to the vet if you cannot get into a doctor I guess as they are licensed to bring medicall assitance to animals.

      By the way, what did Darwin bring????  Think to bring the hopeslessness of atheism is a poor legacy I would have thought. 

      I will stick with Jesus, I know Him to be the Truth.  You go hang out on trees with your cousins mate. Enjoy!!  :0)

    • James says:

      01:52pm | 18/03/11

      No I think i’d rather hang out with Jesus and tinkerbell and Santa and your other imaginary friends who can do anything wooopeeee.  Btw Jesus is also an Ape.

    • True Believer says:

      02:37pm | 18/03/11

      @James
      “Btw Jesus is also an Ape.”
      One day, like it or not, you will stand before Jesus and you will have to account for those foolish words. I wonder how brave you will be then?? 
      Mind you now I am not sure about your roots, at least apes are intelligent - though they be but animals.

    • James says:

      04:49pm | 18/03/11

      Dude Jesus is my homie, we will hang out with tinkerbell and the muffin man and eat moon pie it will be awesome.  If I have a word to my man Jesus he may bounce you so be careful what you say to me.  Peace.

    • True Believer says:

      06:55pm | 18/03/11

      @James

      I have it now - not ape, but parrot - lots of talk - but all mimicry.  Nothing original, just parrotting stuff you hear . Evolution proven.  Have a good weekend - don’t eat too many crackers Polly. :0)

    • Stu says:

      05:51pm | 20/03/11

      @ True Believer:
      “One day, like it or not, you will stand before Jesus and you will have to account for those foolish words. I wonder how brave you will be then??”

      If that’s true, maybe it’s possible that Jesus has a sense of humour and will let James into heaven and do some thinking about a certain someone else.

    • Daniel says:

      04:03pm | 17/03/11

      I find it rather interesting that Donnelly criticises the national curriculum as lacking focus on the rise of Western Civilisation in favour of a more multicultural and Asian centred scope, and then later goes on to call out the same curriculum for having some focus on the Roman slave trade whilst making no mention of the Islamic alternative.

    • johnny right says:

      08:33am | 18/03/11

      isn’t our julia an atheist anyway? maybe tim is 2.

    • Basic Facts of Our History says:

      11:18pm | 18/03/11

      Where did all this Politically Correct clap trap come from in the first place.  Christianity is the base of our first settlement, no one can change that basic fact.  No, I have not forgotten our Aboriginal friends.  I would like to see aboriginal tradition taught in depth at our schools.  A lot of the comments I have read smack of anti Christianity to me.  Shouldn’t that be a crime.  It’s a crime to be anti-semetic or anti any other religion.  But know the majority in the country lose out again with this so called PC nonsence.  Perhaps the politicians should practice a little PC.  What’s wrong with BC and AD?  It isn’t hurting anyone it is a reference terminology.  I went to a public high school in the 70’s, and religious classes were available as an option.  Those who wanted to attend did. Those who didn’t, well they just didn’t attend.  No big deal.  Attending or not was up to the parents.  If they disobeyed they sorted it out with them.  They were never punished by the school.  There was Sunday school for those of a different Christianity, and that was also optional and up to the parents.  I had a well rounded education and matriculated with a very high mark in 6th form.  I could have chosen mostly anything I wanted to do, and attend any university as well.  My religious beliefs are my own business, and I don’t use them as an excuse for anything.  Many religions out there can be recognised as they wear their heart on their sleeves and continually moan and groan about persecution.  Oh please get over yourselves. If you intergrated and didn’t make such a fuss it wouldn’t happen.
      Everyone in Australia has the opportunity to have a well rounded and informative education and are able to express their views freely on all subjects.

    • petery says:

      07:15am | 19/03/11

      As a History teacher, I have only glanced over the new proposed national History curriculum quickly, and somehow I doubt the majority here, if any,  have actually even done that No one here seems to admit to having actually read the new curriculum totally.  Most of the debate here seems to be about athiests versus believers,  and drifting away from the point of the whole thing.

        I have not had time to look at it in detail. but what struck me about the proposed curriculum is how much material is in it already,not what is left out. A major question I would ask is how is any teacher going to find the time to teach all this even over a number of years, or is it going to involve choice of topics? Is it going to have to be taught in a superficial mishmash, with students knowing by rote the date of Magna Carta (the what?), the date of Australia’s discovery by Captain Cook ( oh sorry,that’s wrong he wasn’t the first), and other such half baked snippets of alleged fact, that the majority of people apparently think they learnt in History lessons when they were fourteen? This is one of the reasons   that general understanding of History is so poor, and politicians are able to influence the giullible so easily with their own lack of understanding of it.

      If that is what the curriculum designers expect, and that is what is wanted   then don’t expect greater understanding of History among the general population than we have already. The proposed national curriculum in History seems to be too vast in its present form,  and given   that History   is only one of about a dozen subjects that teachers will be expected to teach, the debate shoulld be not be about PC, or religion being included, but what can   be   should be cut away from what is there already.

      I would like to see more debate here focussed on this issue and less about God and evolution, because History deals with the real world too. It would appear the majority here does not like thinking about   the real world but would prefer to indulge themselves in a lot of metaphysical speculation and psedo philosophising about the after life,as a way of avoiding the real topic at hand

    • mary says:

      09:21am | 19/03/11

      To DocBud and others quote/misquoting the bible in response to the ten simple rules. You see, if indeed the history of Christianity/bible were taught in schools you would not quote hypocrisy because you would recognise it when you see it. The ten rules obviously stand as moral standards, it is the interpretation of them which should be questioned. That was true in biblical times and is still true today. Do not kill means the same today as it did thousands of years ago. And yes, don’t ask me how, but it is still being misinterpreted, all in the name of G(o)od.

 

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