APRIL 8,1974.

My darling Heather, I write to you at a time when I think I’ve never felt worse about politics. The idiots who now run the Liberal Party will drive me right round the bend. Their last move is to deny supply to the present government in the Senate. Now this is something that shocks me.

These words belong to former prime minister and founder of the Liberal Party, Sir RG (Bob) Menzies.  History of course can provide a longer-run assessment of the bunker-busting tactics used to blast Gough Whitlam from office.

But whatever side you come down on, Malcolm Fraser was vindicated winning three subsequent elections (1975, 1977, and 1980, although not the double-D held just weeks after his 1974 missive under Billy Snedden’s leadership).

Ming’s scathing and until now private assessment emerged on Wednesday via a new book Letters to My Daughter replete with many fascinating thoughts and observations over two decades from 1955.

Like subsequent Liberal leaders, the letters suggest he was both more “liberal” and mainstream than his opponents at the time granted. Curiously this can also be said of the previously hated Malcolm Fraser, and John Hewson, of Fightback! fame.

Quite separately, as it happens, some days before the Menzies letters emerged, a press gallery colleague had opined in conversation that he had “no doubts whatsoever” that Tony Abbott would have already reprised the 1975 constitutional crisis were it open to him using the carbon tax backflip as the justification.

It is an interesting debating point. Certainly there is nothing in the Opposition’s current full-steam-ahead approach to suggest it would be more conflict or crisis-averse than was either Snedden or Fraser.

With the Government so wounded since the carbon tax landed, the risk of such a strategy to Mr Abbott at least would have been very low.

As for the risk to the national social and political fabric, well that is another matter.

Here, a quick glance across the Pacific provides a real-time lesson on the current state of so-called “conservatism’‘.

Long the custodian of the moral high ground as guardians of stabilising conventions and institutions, conservatism has taken on a rabid edge with its exponents now the ones most inclined to junk tradition in pursuit of power.

Paul Keating’s blunt reduction of Tony Abbott’s pitch as “vote for me or I’ll wreck the place’’ picked up on this point but it is particularly fitting for the approach being pursued by Tea Party hardliners in the GOP at present.

As for the Government here, it has its own version: vote for us and we’ll wreck ourselves.

That said, its strategy this week improved.

Depending on perspective, you see Julia Gillard’s clanging withdrawal from the frontline as either a craven retreat or a smart move.

Compare the past seven days to the fortnight preceding it. In that first period, Julia Gillard, who - remember - explicitly stated that she intended to wear out shoe-leather selling the carbon tax, did no less than 37 radio and television interviews, 13 press conferences, two speeches and one address-to-the-nation.

Whereas this week, she did zero TV or radio, gave no speeches, and no addresses-to-the-nation.

True, she did do four press appearances but they mostly dealt with other material including a joint appearance with Tony Blair, and others on the Malaysian people swap deal, and forestry.

There are now some very early signs of the game shifting slightly for Ms Gillard. After the bleakest single fortnight for a federal government probably since that ‘75 crisis, the last Newspoll seemed to pick up the faint flickers of a recovery.

Labor’s primary vote still has a “two’’ in front of it, and any improvement was within the margin of error, but there is better news on the carbon tax front itself with support for the measure jumping by a decent six points to 36 per cent.

How much is down to Gillard’s advocacy and how much is down to TV ads and the like is hard to tell.

Who knows, with careful husbandry it may be coaxed higher still (or not). But the Government’s best chance of that now is to leave it alone and start governing in other areas where work needs to be done.

One pointer from the week is that while Tony Abbott continued the faux election campaign, the PM’s withdrawal effectively silenced him as well. Without her matching him stunt-for-fluoro-vested-stunt and drawing abuse in shopping malls, his campaigns dropped from TV bulletins.

She’s done the direct stuff with voters and looked coal and electricity workers in the eye, both of which she would have been accused of avoiding had she not.

Now she must do as John Howard successfully did at times of adversity and withdraw. Leave the frontline fight to Greg Combet and Wayne Swan.

Remember Clinton’s maxim: It’s the economy stupid! Voters will not see you as a government if you only present as an opposition.

181 comments

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    • ZSRenn says:

      07:16am | 30/07/11

      The political Editor of the, Adelaide times, and a friend had to tell you, Mr. Kenny, that Tony Abbott would have used his, constitutional right, to block supply and force a double dissolution of parliament if available to him. If you read the forums, of every major newspaper, television station and blog sheet you would have realized that that is what the Australian people are calling for.

      Then you try to justify Julia Gillard spending only one week wearing out the shoe leather and then fading off into nothingness as a good political move and not another broken promise to her party. I mean really, if the best move she has is to shut up and stop talking to sell this behemoth and stop giving Tony Abbott ammo by doing so, is this the quality of leader you want running this country?

      Not for me thank you and I reiterate my comment that, this is the worst government in Australian history, with its plethora of errors. I include the very short lived Whitlam government, in that assessment. The same Whitlam government, as you correctly say was voted out by the Australian people, after the world did not fall apart, due to the Governor General calling a double dissolution.

      It really is time for the media in this country to stop following party lines or to stop reacting of the bulling tactics by Julia Gillard against it and to start telling it like 71% of the people see it. This Carbon Tax is a dog and we do not want it. Enough of the history lessons, trying to instill fear, we want news from today.

    • JohnB says:

      08:34am | 30/07/11

      You pretty much wrapped up my thoughts ZSRenn.

      It’s time this was brought to a head. The ridiculous do nothing NBN is rolling out, and every day there is more damage to Australia as we move towards the ridiculous do nothing carbon tax.

      This government runs on ideology. There is nothing practical or useful that they have or will do. I thought by now a nervous self-serving backbencher would have publicly declared their withdrawal of support. But no, there is no competence right across the Labor Party.

      Will someone please do something! Where’s the Governor General, or the Queen, or other important people like Oakshot and Windsor?

    • max headroom says:

      09:58am | 30/07/11

      I’m with you ZR everybody i know even an ex union rep and previous Labor voter are so over this lot its not funny. the anger in the community is even worse than the Whitlam years

    • Aaron says:

      10:11am | 30/07/11

      @ZSRenn, so why doesn’t Abbott block supply? Why doesn’t he force a dissolution of Government? If Abbott truly believed he could do better then that would have been his first move. Obviously somewhere Abbott realises that the Government’s approach is the best approach, why else would he continue to let the Government “destroy the economy”?

      Abbott is a leader who’s bark is worst than his bite, he’ll rant and rave in the way that earned him the moniker “Mad Monk” but when it comes high-noon time he drops his guns.

    • Bev says:

      11:06am | 30/07/11

      Aaron says:10:11am | 30/07/11

      so why doesn’t Abbott block supply?

      He cannot, he does not have the numbers. Only if one of the independents defects and parliament becomes locked can the GG step in and invite another party/coalition to form government or disolve parliament and call elections. Thing is who would defect? It is unlikely to be Windsor or Oakshott perhaps Wilke we just don’t know.

    • Ben81 says:

      11:09am | 30/07/11

      Aaron - opportunity to actually do that aside, you may or may not remember that Tony Abbott said before the election that he would not block supply from opposition.  Laying into him for keeping his word is a bit much.

    • Gregg says:

      11:24am | 30/07/11

      @Aaron
      Is it parliament you do not understand or arithmetic for to be able to block supply, the Coalition would need the numbers in the Senate and that ain’t the case.

    • max headroom says:

      11:30am | 30/07/11

      wake up Arron old son Abbott doesnt have the numbers to block supply in the senate, its independents and greens hold that power.

    • Glen says:

      02:51pm | 31/07/11

      Agree completely.

    • TomTom says:

      07:18am | 30/07/11

      Mark so unfair to use Menzie’s letters to his daughter with the politics of that era to that of today. What the people are facing today was nothing like what Menzie’s felt about the Liberal party he so famously founded.

      ‘junk traditions in pursuit of power’ unfortunately without that power nothing can be achieved. It is the circumstances any opposition would find itself in today’s political climate. It all began with the knifing of Rudd, the set up of the government we had to have, the lie, the carbon tax with no mandate etc to now emotions running high and having to wait two years before we can exercise our democratic rights to get rid of an incompetent hopeless government that is the cause of our frustrations and anxiety.

      If the Gillard Labor Party was governing at their own right and not the Greens, Wilkie, Oakeshott and Windsor it would be difficult to see the reason why the Opposition should block anything.

      At the end of the day the people will judge for themselves and it will be the people alone that will do the wrecking!

      I am looking forward to reading those lovely letters and not for the politics but for the beautiful loving relationship between a father and his only daughter.

    • persephone says:

      08:34am | 30/07/11

      Yes, isn’t it amazing?

      Abbott only needs a couple of votes in the HoR to block legislation. But he’s failed to do this once - out of over 150 occasions.

      I don’t know of any other Opposition up against a minority government who can equal that record.

      What it tells us is that people who know him, who’ve sat around the table and discussed issues with him, can’t bring themselves to vote with him under any circumstances.

      If the Gillard Labor party was governing in their own right, Abbott would behave towards it exactly as he behaved towards the Rudd government, which had a thumping majority.

      I don’t know what the election result will be in two years” time. Neither do you.

      But his track record suggests that, should Abbott be elected, the wrecking would continue.

      There’s absolutely nothing to suggest he knows any other way of operating.

    • TomTom says:

      11:04am | 30/07/11

      @ persephone

      Why do you persist with such drivel? Do you ever read what is being said without having your mind already made up on what you are about to type? This is definitely the case with you so don’t deserve a reply but the one you are reading now and as a reminder, the fact that a vast majority of Australians detest Gillard and her crappy government.

    • Bev says:

      11:12am | 30/07/11

      persephone says:08:34am | 30/07/11

      Yes, isn’t it amazing?

      Abbott only needs a couple of votes in the HoR to block legislation. But he’s failed to do this once - out of over 150 occasions.

      I don’t know of any other Opposition up against a minority government who can equal that record.

      It is not a minority government it is a coalition Labour/independents/greens who control the floor of the house. What your are saying is rubbish. Talk about twisting the truth!

    • Ben81 says:

      11:14am | 30/07/11

      He’s not a wrecker after all is he persephone.

    • Gregg says:

      11:32am | 30/07/11

      @persey
      Who is us btw?
      What it tells me is that you have an opposition that does not oppose everything for the sheer hell of it and so that could make YOU think about Dr. No tags and then it also tells Me that you have independents sacrificing all for their own benefit.

      Windsor is even on record as saying though he accepts that Labor will not be re-elected, he’ll still support Gillard and he continually adds little snippetts that just mean he has a personal hatred of the Coalition and Tony Abbott.
      Windsor is a loser and will also get the message from his electorate come the next election.

      The Greens are in a real dilemma for there’s quite a bit happening in Tasmania and with Asylum Seekers that they need to determine how valuable their soul is.

    • jb says:

      11:35am | 30/07/11

      You guys can spin anything, so let me get this right, now you hate Tony Abbott because he isn’t ‘Dr No’ and isn’t trying to ‘Wreck’ parliment?
      You lot must come from the same mould, wishy washy would be proactive for you and the labor party…

    • Martin says:

      11:39am | 30/07/11

      Propaganda Phone. I have seen on many ,many occasions where you have posted inumerable posts of such length that it is obviious that you are paid to do so. Bleating Laborspeak ad infinitum betrays your cause and weakens your agrument to the point of non existence.

    • Joan says:

      12:14pm | 30/07/11

      Peresphone: you`re a laugh a minute. Abbotts the opposition, he’s not the PM in case you didn’t know. It`s Gillard with hands on the leavers who is wrecking Australia today, and billing hard working tax payers for the wreckage along the way.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      12:32pm | 30/07/11

      @ Bev - “It is not a minority government it is a coalition”

      Wrong Bev…A coalition has a cabinet made up of members from different parties; the current ALP cabinet consists only of ALP politicians.

      A minority government is where no one party has a majority on the floor therefore for them to govern they require the vote of independent or minor party members.

      The ALP is in government because of the support from three independents and one Green.

      Understand how our Westminster system of government operates before accusing others of twisting the truth, it is you that has a twisted view of democracy.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      12:52pm | 30/07/11

      A Freudian slip there Pers? You admit that Abbott has not had any effect on over 150 pieces of legislation passed, yet you say the ‘wrecking’ continues.

      If it wasn’t Abbott, who’s doing the ‘wrecking’?

    • MarK says:

      12:53pm | 30/07/11

      ”  persephone says:

        08:34am | 30/07/11

        Yes, isn’t it amazing?”

      It truly is amazing that you try to spin this crap again.

        ” Abbott only needs a couple of votes in the HoR to block legislation. But he’s failed to do this once - out of over 150 occasions.”

      Gillard only needs a green, 2 ex nats that have a pathological hatred of the right and rely on her to stay in a job and an ex Greenie that needs her to satyin a job as well to get a vote through.

      So let us see. 3 people that need her to keep their seats and a Greenie.

      And you think Abbott has an easy job?

      HAHAHAHAHA

      ”  I don’t know of any other Opposition up against a minority government who can equal that record.”

      I don’t know of any that have done what you suggested should be easy. There has never been this situation before in Australian Federal history and all the other hung parliaments I know od at state level stumbled through ok.

      What was your point again?

      care to tell us of historical precedents that make this unusual or as per your normal modus operandi you have nothing and are spreading lies?

        ” What it tells us is that people who know him, who’ve sat around the table and discussed issues with him, can’t bring themselves to vote with him under any circumstances.”

      What it tells us is that 2 ex nats have a psychological problem with the right and are willing to go against their constitients wishes to spite them.

      It tells us nothing.

      It tells us lots about your reasoning process which is preoccupied with spin.

        ”  If the Gillard Labor party was governing in their own right, Abbott would behave towards it exactly as he behaved towards the Rudd government, which had a thumping majority.”

      This is meaningless.

        ”  I don’t know what the election result will be in two years” time. Neither do you.”

      Well you fail at reading trends then. It ain’t that hard.

        ”  But his track record suggests that, should Abbott be elected, the wrecking would continue.”

      Such as what? You just told us he can’t stop anything despite his “powerful” position. Now you are telling us he wrecks everything.

      Internal logic fail.

      FFS try to keep on track in the one post

        ” There’s absolutely nothing to suggest he knows any other way of operating.”

      As there is nothing to suggest the NBN will not blow out to unimaginable cost levels both in construction and in end price. And as there is nothing to suggest the implementation of the carbon tax would not be a disaster filled with rorts, illegalities, restrictions on freedom and ultimate failing.

      this is fun pers.

      I missed you like a man misses a case of crabs. It means he has had fun but needs a scratch from time to time.

      Do come back soon.

    • jf says:

      01:39pm | 30/07/11

      persephone says:
      08:34am | 30/07/11
      “But his track record suggests that, should Abbott be elected, the wrecking would continue.”

      Enough Perse. You are, by all appearances an intelligent and articulate woman. You have ready access to all manner of stats and have a natty way of manipulating and twisting words. My guess is that you work for the Party or the Public Service. I’m also guessing you are very young. There’s nothing wrong with any of that. It is a privilege of youth to be a bit of a lefty.

      But let me tell you what’s going on outside of the sheltered workshops of the University social sciences departments and the ALP (including the unions, the ALP aligned law firms and the industry superannuation funds).

      People are hurting. The majority of my clients are self-employed and small business owners. A lot of these people are based in regional Australia. A lot of them are also former blue collar workers with an historical connection to the ALP. These people are the heart-blood of regional communities. They are members of local communities, they volunteer in the community. Sometimes even wearing budgie smugglers or other uncool garb but are proud of this rather than ashamed as you and your associates feel they should be.  Their kids go the local public schools. Some have donated land and money to establish local private schools.

      These are the people that risked their own money and job security to establish grocers, chemists, plumbing business, electrical businesses, construction businesses, hardware stores, retails stores, newsagents, real estate firms, stock and station agents and more.  Some are reasonably new whilst others have been going for generations.

      They are telling me that they are working harder than ever just too simply stay afloat. They are being belted by the government at every turn. They are being belted by a tax system that increasingly punishes anyone who establishes or produces something of value in favour of those who aren’t prepared to take a risk. They are being belted by IR laws that make it impossible to fire someone even if they steal from you let alone for gross incompetence. They are being belt by unnecessary and paternalistic compliance and regulation.

      They are telling me that their children don’t want to take on their businesses – the see their parents working their guts out and putting their capital at risk for no reward. Their children would rather work for someone else and know that they have a guaranteed pay check each week, sick leave, annual leave and protection from being fired no matter how apathetic or incompetent they are.

      Not only that, there is no-one willing or able to buy their businesses so they are closing down. They will only be replaced by large soulless multi-nationals. Coles or Woolies instead of half a dozen local businesses. BWS instead of local pubs. International firms will fill the void as well taking money out of the community. These firms won’t sponsor the local under 10 soccer team or the local school fete. There’s no return in that unless you have connection through your kid, your neighbour or because you love your community.

      This government is wrecking people’s lives and wrecking communities. They are hurting good, hard-working people. People who have made disproportionately large contributions to their communities and to the country.

      And let me tell you Perse, there is real passion amongst these people. I have never, ever seen so much talk about the economy and the government. I have never seen such vitriol, bitterness and contempt for a government. This is a bad, bad government. I encourage you to get out and talk to some people Perse – a tip though; in the interests of preserving your dignity and self-respect, don’t tell them that you think that this government ok.

    • Bev says:

      01:55pm | 30/07/11

      Martin Hopes says:12:32pm | 30/07/11
      “A coalition has a cabinet made up of members from different parties”.
      Your right I’m wrong. I stand corrected.

      However the greens and independents may not be in cabinet but they still wield a big influence on Labour policy.  Some say the carbon tax was the price for green support.  I don’t know but it is to a certain extent believable.

    • Bev says:

      02:07pm | 30/07/11

      jf says:01:39pm | 30/07/11

      Good post.
      In talking to the older generation many retired (as I am) I get the exact same vibes.  Many say they always voted Labour but no more. People who never talked politics now are and they are scathing in their comments. Friends who coming back from their yearly caravan trips are saying exactly what you are about people in every town they visit.

    • John A Neve says:

      02:17pm | 30/07/11

      Tom Tom,
      Please tell me, how you could possibly know what “that a vast
      majority of Australians detest Gillard and her crappy government”?

      Methinks you spend too much time looking in the mirror.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      02:23pm | 30/07/11

      @ jf - That’s a hell of a rant.

      “They are telling me that they are working harder than ever just too simply stay afloat. They are being belted by the government at every turn. They are being belted by a tax system that increasingly punishes anyone who establishes or produces something of value in favour of those who aren’t prepared to take a risk. They are being belted by IR laws that make it impossible to fire someone even if they steal from you let alone for gross incompetence. They are being belt by unnecessary and paternalistic compliance and regulation”

      Show me one piece of the current governments passed legislation that has led to the examples you state above, everything you have stated has been caused through previous conservative government legislation. You had better warn your clients that if they think life is hard now, then god help them if Abbott becomes Prime Minister.

    • jf says:

      03:43pm | 30/07/11

      Martin Hopes says:

      02:23pm | 30/07/11

      “@ jf - That’s a hell of a rant.”
      Isn’t it? And it’s nothing compared to what the electorate is saying.

      “Show me one piece of the current governments passed legislation that has led to the examples you state above, everything you have stated has been caused through previous conservative government legislation.”

      No it hasn’t Martin. But I’m not going to show you anything. If you don’t want to listen to what people are saying that’s up to you. Regardless of the intention or the spin, Labor is the party of unintended consequences, that party that develops policy without regard to the knock on effect, that party that prefers form over substance. The party that tells people that they are going to improve their lives by ensuring that work is harder to get, the country is less prosperous that it could be and that everyone can be equally unfortunate.

      Listen to the community yourself Martin, do your own dirty work (that is if you are not too used to sucking on the public tit, living off other people’s money)  - people that are being affected. Business owner that can’t sack f*ckwits, the Uni students that are finding it difficult to get work experience now because workers are frightened and confused by the legislation in relation to unpaid work experience students, the businesses that are running lean because the of the twin effects of a moribund economy and prescriptive and inflexible regulations and the people who are not working because of the former.

      I have just spent three days in the country and have seen people who worked hard for decades to build a business only to find it worthless and therefore heading for an uncertain retirement. I have seen young people no longer wanting to stay and participate in their communities.

      Incidentally, I have also spoken to the accountants of these people. The accountants are telling me that they ATO has become rabid. Enforcing unreasonable tax collection time frames. Calling in the debt collectors well before they used to. The view of these accountants is that the ATO is under instructions to get revenue in, come what may. At a time when creditor days has blown out, this is yet another imposition on these business forcing them to, in turn, blow out there debtor days with the consequent flow on effect. Even businesses that are nominally doing ok are still struggling because of the impact on cashflow of their creditors not paying them.

      So by all means mate look down your nose at me and tell me I’m ranting. It was a depressing and emotional three days. It is confronting to meet with a man in his late sixties who has built an honest and robust business, a man who has dedicated his life to his family and his community, who has donated his time and labour to other people, a man who is now unable to sell his business to fund his retirement. It is depressing to meet with a young couple who would prefer to take a nine to five job with a national organisation in the City than take over their parent’s business simply because they don’t want a future where there is no upside and plenty of downside for the hard work and risk involved in small business.

      So take your condescending platitudes and challenges to stick my head in the steaming pile of sh!t that purports to be this government’s policy and legislation and jam them where the sun doesn’t shine. Because mate, you and the rest of your debating society mates are irrelevant.

    • Bev says:

      04:25pm | 30/07/11

      Martin Hopes says:02:23pm | 30/07/11

      Latest figures show productivity down inflation up. So yes you do have to run faster to stay in the same spot. Fair work Australia has reintroduced unfair dismisal for small business.  So its back to pay them to go away as it’s cheaper than fighting the claim.  Better still don’t hire.
      We know that the Tribunal’s latest ruling gives unions pretty much the right to do as they like and with many workplace agreements about to expire they will have a field day. We will be back with no ticket no start and strikes at whim, pattern bargaining and union thuggery Do you remember Hamesley Iron?  Light bulb goes out after hours get the electrician and mate (safety) pay a minimum of 4 hours at at least double time for a 5 minute job (plus travelling).  Trouble is this is Abbots weakest point damned if he does damned if he doesn’t. If he doesn’t and gets elected the unions will wreck the joint to bring him down.  If he does them unions will scream blue murder.  Howard admitted himself that he went to far but it is suggested Abbot could Ditch fair work and back track to a point before work choices plus retain the safety net.

    • Martin says:

      04:32pm | 30/07/11

      Well said JF. I remember the “recession we had to have” another Labor triumph. Same sort of circumstances where people lost everything due to the financial circumstances of the times. Many of these Labor wafflers on here are too young to remember the bad times, they just think things are always good like they had it under the expert stewardship of Howard and Costello.  Watching the unfolding disaster in the US, and given the uselessness of this Labor government here, I don’t think it will be long before the Labor bullshiters like Martin Hopes will understand how hopeless Labor is and how good we had it under Howard’s leadership.

    • ZSRenn says:

      04:45pm | 30/07/11

      @ The Punch and the rest of The Australian Press.

      Give jf a by line

      This truth needs to be told!

      This is my father’s story! My father who after 65 years of self employed work, employing countless staff, and providing for endless families, died living in a rented apartment,  because of this bullshit!

      My father who spent endless years working for charity and receiving the highest award within the Lions Club, with his name written on a wall in New York, because of his efforts who received nothing, from the Australian government for his troubles, but worse was driven to the brink of bankruptcy, because of a failed government project, which he received no compensation for.

      This is modern Australia. This is what we have been handed by this bullshit that purports itself as government.

      This is what you support Persephone!

    • Martin Hopes says:

      05:22pm | 30/07/11

      @ Martin - “Watching the unfolding disaster in the US, and given the uselessness of this Labor government here, I don’t think it will be long before the Labor bullshiters like Martin Hopes will understand how hopeless Labor is”

      Are you suggesting that the problems facing the USA are because of the ALP?

      Foreign investment in Australia has never been higher; do you reckon that’s because of how hopeless Labor is? Our dollar is sitting on thirty plus year highs, do you reckon that’s because foreign investors see our economy as a basket case? Of course they don’t, but conservative posters on The Punch obviously know better!

    • ZSRenn says:

      05:55pm | 30/07/11

      @ Martin Hopes. Please let’s look at the unfolding disaster in the US and let’s remember the ridicule one Barnaby Joyce received at the hands of Wayne Swann back in 2009 when he suggested that it might happen and that we should have a plan for it.

      Let’s remember that investors invest whilst prices are low and sell when they gain value so at the moment our goods and chattels are at rock bottom price and they are pouring in the cash. Especially those of the 500 taxed companies.

      Let’s also remember that it is not our dollar that is gaining in value but that the US dollar is in freefall.

      Let’s have a look at how we are doing against the impoverished Euro.

      http://www.x-rates.com/d/AUD/EUR/hist2011.html

      You just don’t get it do you and I guess you never will!

      You were in fact told this yesterday, and the day before, but you don’t listen as you are a welded on slave to the machine and that is all you will ever be!

      Meanwhile Rome burns along with its slaves!

    • Matt says:

      06:05pm | 30/07/11

      I can attest to what jf is saying about the ATO. They have become increasingly mercenary in collecting debts, and are turning to collection agencies more and more often to get paid, rather than trying to work out repayment plans with clients. Its making it very difficult for a lot of businesses to survive, from my experience. Times are tough for a lot of people, and I don’t see it getting any better in the short term I’m afraid.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      07:09pm | 30/07/11

      @ ZSRenn - “You were in fact told this yesterday, and the day before, but you don’t listen as you are a welded on slave to the machine and that is all you will ever be!”

      Impressive stuff there Renny…seeing I only visit here on weekends!

      Institutional investors are looking for long term stability Renny, Australia is seen as such.

      “at the moment our goods and chattels are at rock bottom price and they are pouring in the cash. Especially those of the 500 taxed companies”

      Do you charge for this advice? Or is your name really Barnaby?

    • Gregg says:

      06:53am | 31/07/11

      @Martin Hopes
      ” Are you suggesting that the problems facing the USA are because of the ALP? “

      Nothing of the sort was being suggested but the US situation being given as an example of where the current government can take us.
      Are you so stupid or just forgot to add the less to Hopes?

      As for all this so called foreign investment, have you ever looked at how resource projects can often have international connections and yes, Australian companies get involved with projects overseas too and so what you normally have as far as economic scenarios go is resource projects being considered quite a few years before they are expected to come on line.

      The capital injections planned to occur over the next few years to even a decade are because of planning that probably started a decade back where you have economists predicting global growth and demand.

      Well, guess what, things do change and whereas a country introduces significant higher taxes that will have economists predicting there could be better options than Australian resources re return on capital investment and so you could quite likely see a fall off in investment.

      The other thing that can change is obviously the global economic situation and it is not unheard of for projects to be shelved so all the current investment which is planned and only some of it currently occurring could be shelved but no doubt Labor does not wish to talk about such possibilities.

    • Joe says:

      07:48pm | 31/07/11

      Persephone, why are you and all the other carbon tax supporters not demanding a referendum on the carbon tax to vindicate your professed majority support from the Australian people on the issue.

    • Thommo says:

      11:28am | 01/08/11

      persephone - do you even read your own nonsense before you hit submit? My god ‘woman’, and I use that term loosely, you show the most amazing lack of common sense of any poster on the punch. It’s a credit to the punches free speech ethos taht they allow your drivel to be published though. I think my 10 year old is honest to god smarter than you.

    • Luke4 says:

      07:20am | 30/07/11

      It’s a great endorsement of the Prime Minister when she has to be hidden from the public to try and gain popularity!

    • persephone says:

      08:35am | 30/07/11

      Well, the polls went up during the week she was out and about, so there’s nothing to support that statement.

    • Martin says:

      11:45am | 30/07/11

      Well that begs the question,If the polls went up, why didn’t she continue, Propaganda Phone?

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      12:57pm | 30/07/11

      Martin, nice pickup.

    • Gregg says:

      07:48am | 30/07/11

      What you in effect are saying Mark is that she is all washed up and it’s kind of time to hang others out to dry.

      We all know the tumble frier is the next step for her and Oh, they are not such a great carbon footprint compared to solar drying.
      She has gone rusty awful quickly too and couldn’t even mumble something about chewing gum and get it out with clarity.

    • Bev says:

      12:57pm | 30/07/11

      Why was I not told about the tumble frier ?  I want one but only if it makes crisper chips.

    • Gregg says:

      03:46pm | 30/07/11

      Little typo Bev, but hey, maybe I’ve tumbled onto something and might have a niche market in the making and a super jumbo one for Gillard or just like it was when Harold went for a swim and the joke was you’d go into the Fish’nChip shop and ask for Bass Straight Holt and Chips, we could ask for Spiced tumbled Gillardine strips and Wayne wedges.

      I’ll let you know how a bit of stainless steel mesh goes rolled up to work as a rotisserie drum over the fire pit, a little oil spray and spices and invite Julia around.
      She might even come seeing as she’ll not be too welcome anywhere else!

    • thatmosis says:

      08:05am | 30/07/11

      Everytime she appears in public the public lets her know that they dont believe a word she says, She always has her little noddy doll in the background looking very uncomfortable and wishing he or she was somewhere else. She keeps on lying to people about the “settled science” of Climate Change which is unraveling around her as we speak as more and more scientists come out and tell the people the truth about the scare mongering that is based on false and misleading crap. If the Labor Party continues down this slippery slide to oblivion the blame will be laid entirely at the feet of this lying woman and the Greens who actually run this country now. Time for Labor Pollies to grow a set and stand up for what is right not some weird idiology that will see Australia and Australians suffer for no reason. People are sick of the lies and waste of this Government and its time that we had a say in this debate, go to the people if you really think this tax is a good tax instead of introducing it by stealth.

    • Joan says:

      08:38am | 30/07/11

      Double crosser Gillard , just a year ago double crossed Rudd then double crossed people of Australia with her No Carbon tax lie. She has now gone into hiding soon after vowing to people she was going to wear out shoe leather justifying her turn around. for 6 weeks ... she lasted one week, must be cheap basement Chinese made shoes she was wearing. Please,  could someone throw her a new pair of quality shoes.?

    • Gratuitous Adviser says:

      09:09am | 30/07/11

      The “Everytime she appears in public the public lets her know that they dont believe a word she says” comment will be successfully argued with Fred Nile’s apparent first win in NSW with regard to the demise of the ethics classes, no matter what the spin,  Nile’s win will severly dint Tony’s Abbotts and the Libs “Juliar” campaign.  I look forward to how the ALP are going to fit teller of fallshoods into Mr. O’Farrell’s name. 
      Thatmosis.  They are all the same.  Get used to it.

    • Joan says:

      11:22am | 30/07/11

      Peresphone: thanks for the laugh, nothing like stacked meeting to gauge support. Whoopee Gillards on the rise, that`s why she has gone into hiding. ....cos she taking a hiding .

    • Bev says:

      11:27am | 30/07/11

      persephone says:08:47am | 30/07/11

      Au contraire.

      Assuming 70% of audience is against the tax and 30% are for.
      Gillard convinced 20% of the people who were against the tax
      20% of 70% =28%.
      Abbot convinced 15% of the people who were for the tax
      15% of 30% = 50%
      So who was more successful?

    • MarK says:

      12:55pm | 30/07/11

      Oh hai pers

      http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/what-you-asked-on-the-carbon-tax/story-fn6ck45n-1226094901629

      You mean people like these?

      “On Thursday night, Tony Abbott was asked by Vicky Monaghan, whose son works in the mining industry: “Why do you persist with the scaremongering by insisting that with the introduction of a price on carbon the coal industry faces certain demise?”

      Ms Monaghan turned out to be the wife of Queensland Council of Unions secretary Ron Monaghan.”

      Yah

      real undecided voters.

      What a farce.

      If she can garner that support why not take it to an election?

      Why the cowardice?

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      02:26pm | 30/07/11

      Pers, interesting link you provided. Did you happen to see the poll at the bottom of the article?

      84% said no to a carbon tax. The compensation (the big selling point for Labor) was rated by 75% of respondents as ‘disgraceful, we shouldn’t have the carbon tax’.

      Surely, when about 80% of people reject a proposal even though they have a promise that they will be better off financially has to tell you something.

    • andye says:

      01:33pm | 31/07/11

      @ Likes Joining Dots -  it tells you this: whether or not you like the redhead is more important than the policies. In any other universe the Labor policy WOULD be the Liberal policy and you would all be praising that it is a cheap free market policy that puts the onus on private enterprise to innovate.

      Instead you are all against this, which presents us with the current Liberal plan: a classic “big government” Labor style policy that will be paid for not by the polluters, but by YOU the taxpayer. Huzzah! Not to mention some of the parts of the policy might not actually be possible.

      Whats telling is that many of the criticisms aimed at the current Labor plan kind of assume it is more like the Liberal plan. it would be great to see some kind of debate about what is the best way to deal with the problem (seeing as both parties agree on the targets) but the Liberals seem to be walking this tightrope of courting the denial movement while criticising the targets (which they agree to anyway) and talking about their policy as little as possible.

      The argument from the carbon tax opposing side mostly consists of “we will all be ruined!” and increasingly bombastic claims of economic armageddon. Godwins law is being broken constantly, and thats wehn the left arent being called commies and marxists… all over a very capitalistic style solution. It just makes no damn sense, guys. Seriously.

      All this overblown hyperbole leading to open hatred and fear of one side of a political choice seems to be the way things are done now. The kind of open hatred and death threats experienced by Obama now seems to be reflected in australian politics. The edges of various conspiracy theories creep into the public discourse. All over a policy that is so crazy and extreme that was once touted by Tony Abbott.

      I would love it if people would realistically disagree with the policy. This overblown hyperbole, fear and anger is beneath us. Australia, surely we are better than this? “JuLiar”? Seriously?

    • BarraBob says:

      08:07am | 30/07/11

      If Greg Combet and Wayne Swan are all Gillard has to continue the frontline fight on the carbon dioxide tax then she is in dire, dire straights.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      10:22am | 30/07/11

      TV adds, direct mail, newspaper adds etc

      The good thing about being in government is you get more resources to use to sell your message.

    • Que says:

      08:25am | 30/07/11

      It’s Saturday morning, I’m hungover, and I have no idea what this article was about.

    • Jezza says:

      11:09am | 30/07/11

      Well then why did you bother to submit a post, genius?

    • Mik says:

      08:46am | 30/07/11

      Ah, Winter! a time of hibernation, at least for Tony’s budgie smugglers and Julia’s cleavage.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      08:53am | 30/07/11

      “The idiots who now run the Liberal Party”

      Thirty seven years later and nothing’s changed!

    • Mick S says:

      08:55am | 30/07/11

      A smart tactical move.
      The carbon Tax will be passed by parliament and become law, and take effect as scheduled.
      At which point the economy will not collapse, and the vast majority of Australians will in fact be better off, due to the compensation package.
      Which will leave Abbott’s weird rantings look exactly like the scare campaign it is.
      In the meantime, allow Abbott to make his ridiculous statements (carbon dioxide being “weightless” being the most recent).
      Also, the majority of Australians have memories that last longer than a week.  Last week, Abbott was complaining that the system would be rorted, this week he is complaining that compliance will be monitored.
      Meanwhile, even Alan Jones is being held accountable for his ridiculous comments.
      Most amused by his so-called defence “But I’m a broadcaster, not a journalist”.
      This will undoubtedly become known as the Goebbels defence.

    • Gregg says:

      11:45am | 30/07/11

      @Mick
      And you want to know what is really ridiculous?
      The attempts by people like you to ridicule the ” weightless ” comment for in all relativity it is a gas afterall.
      And then with any government policy, there’s rorting and you only have to look at Insulation, BER and NBN to see that so do not expect anything different with the Carbon Tax.
      And Tony Abbott is not complaining about monitoring but how we’ll have Gillards Carbon Gestapo
      Actually, Gillard is continually picking up ideas from others including Tony Abbott, like he talks of the impact on fuel and what happens, fuel is taken out and then she is childish enough to say Abbott is wrong, yet her Green mates say hang on a bit!

      Tony talks of rorting and what does Gillard do - the Gestapo no less!
      What is Gillards defence btw?

    • Martin says:

      12:02pm | 30/07/11

      @Mick S you must be completely stupid to think any tax will be good for us, let alone this one.
      As for your Alan Jones gibe, instead acting like a bunch of weak gutted weirdos, why doesn’t the likes of Simon Shiek from Get Up phone up and talk to Jones directly about their gripe, or go into the 2GB studio and have a go on air? Might just come a cropper hey?

    • Martin Hopes says:

      12:52pm | 30/07/11

      @ Mick S - Abbott is nothing but a weather vane….interesting that you mentioned Goebbels, he was the master of propaganda and playing his audience, depending on who his audience was at the time, he would tell one group of people one thing and he would say another thing to a different audience, Abbott has been playing this trick for quite some time now.

      @ Martin - “you must be completely stupid to think any tax will be good for us, let alone this one” - What are your views on the GST? I assume you think it’s bad! How do you think infrastructure is paid for? Believe me; life would be a hell of a lot worse without taxes, only someone completely stupid would think otherwise.

    • iansand says:

      12:56pm | 30/07/11

      Oh dear, Gregg.  If you think gases are weightless it is no wonder you buy Abbott’s nonsense.

    • Martin says:

      03:13pm | 30/07/11

      @Martin Hopes. The GST was designed to REPLACE many taxes for a start, it was also introduced with income tax cuts and the states were supposed to relinquish stamp duty on property transactions., hence that tax regime change had merit in that it potentially reduced the tax liabilty for some. Anyway, my main point is that the general populus should always resist the introduction of a new tax by a governement until such time that the populus agrees that it is a good idea which would be hardly ever. This carbon tax is generally loathed, and the Labor party, after months and months of discussion and promotiion is making no headway in improving public opinion. That is because all people can see is greater costs for no practical gain. Redistribution of wealth exercise and a piddling reduction in emissions at best. BTW, What infrastructure is going to be funded with this carbon tax?

    • Martin Hopes says:

      05:52pm | 30/07/11

      @ Martin “BTW, What infrastructure is going to be funded with this carbon tax?”

      Some of the money will go towards the renewable energy sector, who knows what this could lead to?

      One private company Alstom, a French-based company that manufactures power generation equipment can see the benefits (see link) when people like yourself fail to.

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-15/power-plant-builder-backs-carbon-tax/2796520

    • Martin says:

      10:39am | 31/07/11

      @Martin Hopes, fair dinkum, coal $79 per megawatt hour, solar $4004 per megawatt hour. That’s not infrastructure, that is absolute stupidity! Besides, it’s nothing more than feel good politics to keep galahs like you voting Labor/Green. It’s this daft thinking of yours that has got us into the mess we now have in parliament, beholdant to the ridiculous Greens policies that are sure to stuff our country. Well done.

    • nossy says:

      08:55am | 30/07/11

      Its a sad indictment of our political landscape when we only have 2nd raters like Gillard and Abbott to vote for at the next election Mark - very hard to get enthused. I do note many of the young bloggers are smitten with Abbott as if he is the coming “Messiah” however hes clearly not. We had a number of excellent PM’s over the years such as Fraser, Hawke, Keating, Howard and now it all seems to have drifted away. Maybe and hopefully someone inspiring may emerge in the years to come - in the meantime its Dud Vs Dud!

    • Bev says:

      11:33am | 30/07/11

      I would not include Fraser in that mix he was a do nothing prime minister and I would include Menzies.

    • Gregg says:

      11:53am | 30/07/11

      @Nossy
      It has certainly drifted well away with Rudd, Gillard and Brown and you could even say the ship is sinking with all hands without torpedoes hitting or guys in speedos attaching limpet mines but you’ve only got one Dud PM at the moment and another ex Dud, both being thrashed by who should be PM and will be.

      It will not be easy for Tony Abbott for with Labor’s great spendathons, there is going to need to be considerable belt tightening as well as determining how to reign in the monstrous issues left for the new government, NBN, Carbon Tax and Asylum Seekers amongst them.
      I expect that you may just find that Tony Abbott will be no dud but someone with the toughness and fitness to see Australia back on a better course.

    • nossy says:

      12:25pm | 30/07/11

      @Gregg - I hope you are right Gregg as I will be voting for Abbott - he may yet surprise! However caution to all at this point as we still have two years to go till the next “scheduled” election and I note the last Newspoll came back a bit in favour of Gillard - the polls will ebb and flow. The Great Taxer Gillard stilll has her MRRT to rollout yet - strewth!

    • nossy says:

      12:27pm | 30/07/11

      @Bev - although Bev he was in for 3 terms only being ousted by Mr Personality R J L Hawke- he must have done something right?

    • Steve says:

      12:33pm | 30/07/11

      Yes Keating and Howard were good. Hawke was carried by Keating. Fraser was over rated.

      You are correct - Rudd and Gillard have been 2nd rate but how can you assess Abbott as a PM until he has actually been PM?

    • Erick says:

      12:50pm | 30/07/11

      @Nossy - Again I am surprised, since you included equal numbers of Liberal and Labor Prime Ministers in your “greats” list. I think I may have misunderestimated you, for which I am sorry.

      In this spirit of generosity, I’ll concede that I don’t really think Tony Abbott is at that level. To me, he’s just “less worse” than a Labor government. Truth be told, I’d prefer Joe Hockey as PM - out of a pretty limited set of choices.

      Sadly, it seems we are bereft of “great” leaders at this time.

    • nossy says:

      02:11pm | 30/07/11

      @Erick   - all good there Erick - not being aligned to one party or the other has its advantages - its like shopping for a bargain and getting the best deal possible whilst playing one shop against the next. 2 years is a long long time in politics Erick so who knows what “goods” we will have on offer come late 2013?

    • nossy says:

      02:15pm | 30/07/11

      @Steve - quite true Steve Abbott cant be rated as a PM as yet - however he has my vote simply based on the fact Labor are hopeless not on his “performance” as Oppn Leader. We can only hope if, and its an if, Abbott becomes PM he will turn out ok for Australias sake.

    • Gregg says:

      05:14pm | 30/07/11

      @Nossy
      That must have been a ripper of a holiday you had fella and did you find the thought rejuvenation equivalent of the fountain of youth or what!
      Or was the Bordeaux wine so good it hasn’t quite worn off yet!

      But look, please don’t go agreeing with Erick re Joseph for PM for he’s the coalition equivalent of Billy Bunting Kim Beazley and I’ll never forget a much younger but then just as huge Joe at a public meeting he went to with the then speaker of the house early in Howards time, about the time when Riverina farmers were ploughing orchards into the ground and Peter Costello didn’t quite understand what was happening with Telstra outsourcing to India because of the WTO etc.

      I asked a question along the lines of what measures the government uses in regard to allowing overseas imports while our own farmers are falling over?
      Answer: Well, are you happy with prices in the shops or something mundane like that and in other words, they did not have a f..ng clue.

      It was the speaker who answered but Joe still comes across very much like clueless on economics and I do not know that he is prepared to do the hard yards on adequately informing himself.

      So yes Erick, as nice a bloke as Joe may be to have a beer and a pie with lets keep him as orange boy.

    • Glen says:

      04:19pm | 31/07/11

      I don’t think that I’d include Fraser or Keating as good PMs.  Fraser, as has been said previously was a do nothing PM and Keating got in by a scare campaign only to annoy everyone and be kicked out quickly.  Really the only good thing that Keating did was to float the dollar when he was Treasurer.  He was a pretty nasty piece of work and that is how he will be remembered.  But then all previous Treasurers have been better than Swan, that can probably be said for all labor ministers, they are all the worst in history.

    • Against the Man says:

      08:56am | 30/07/11

      Yes, time to hide like a coward. Noticed Roxon is doing the same. It must have finally sunk in…...no one is listing to Gillard smile

      Labor have already lost the next election and there is nothing they can do to prevent it. The majority will get their pound of flesh from her.

      It is pretty sweet. Game over ALP/Gillard!

      Keep hitting her hard at the polls. Remember she screwed Australia like she screwed over Ruddy smile

    • Gregg says:

      08:31am | 31/07/11

      ” no one is listing to Gillard “
      You mean they’re all sitting on the other side of the boat do you so as to hope there’s not a capsize!

      Maybe we should buy her a catamaran!

    • Mike says:

      11:32am | 30/07/11

      Ah the Australian. The voice of impartiality and reason.

      Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

    • JohnB says:

      11:59am | 30/07/11

      Yeah Mike, and there’s reason in imposing a tax that achieves nothing.

      You are defending the indefensible. This government runs on ideology. There is nothing practical or useful that they have or will do.

    • Bev says:

      12:50pm | 30/07/11

      Mike says:11:32am | 30/07/11

      Ah the Australian. The voice of impartiality and reason.
      Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

      Did you read the articles? 
      The first is about how a man who is considered a guru in silcon valley has found a way to run wireless broadband 10 times faster than the NBN can deliver and can bypass shannons law which states that all uses of a particular broadband get a portionof it (the more users the less each gets (NBN)).  To break that law means everybody gets the full bandwidth regardless of the number of users. This is the man who came up with the algorithm behind all the media players you use plus other things. This would make the NBN the most expensive dinosaur in Australia’s history.

      The second item talks about Anglo American.  They have earmarked major spending on coal mining in Australia but are now having second thoughts due to the carbon tax as they have interests in Indonesia and Brazil and coal destined for China may wind up cheaper sourced from these places.  The premium paid for high quality Australian coal they say may become to great for their customers.

      Read before rubbishing comes to mind.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:23pm | 30/07/11

      JohnB actually the MRRT is about the only thing that I agree about this labor party but it wasnt the party that convinced me it was a good idea. It was becasue I listerned to some experts who expliained it correctly and also did my research.

      In regards to the NBN I am with you. By the time it is fully installed it will be outdated. Also I find it quiet funny how so many ppl say it has already paid for itself. Well no it hasnt, unless and pvt company is willing to pay of 60 - 70 billion for the NBN as this is the true cost of investment. Dont forget till they sell the NBN or get a large number of users onto it not just the 61 they have at the moment on the the mainland of Australia the govt will be paying interest on the borrowing costs of the NBN.

    • JohnB says:

      02:09pm | 30/07/11

      John the Zombie, good points . I’m also starting to think that maybe the MRRT in some form isn’t such a bad idea. Resource companies in Australia are making mega money. That alone says there’s some fat that could go towards our collective prosperity. However, I certainly wouldn’t like to see these clowns do it, kill the goose, and then find some brand new way to waste it.

      A tiny little news article the other day declares China will invest 1 trillion dollars in to Australia. That should scare the hell out of every Australian. Meanwhile the resources are being depleted, little money’s coming Australia’s way, and we’re piling another 30 million people in to Australia by 2050. This government has to go before their damage is not reversible.

      That NBN will cost every Australian over $3000 each. So ridiculous it defies belief. In fact EVERY policy this government’s implemented and mooted is a disaster.

    • AdamC says:

      09:12am | 30/07/11

      Seriously, if Mark Kenny ever has an orginal thought, I will do whatever the 21st century alternative is of eating my hat. Literally, every article he pops out is just more re-heated received wisdom. It’s ridiculous. I mean, I could go through why he’s being totally unbalanced and unreasonable in his criticism, but why bother? Is Mark Kenny even an actual person with a brain or the constructed identity of some sort of autowrite program that cuts and pastes editorials from wire services? 

      If you were ever to decide to add some value to your compliant recitations of the press gallery group think conclusions of the week, Mark, you might want to look at a time, not especially long ago, when we actually did have an opposition who opposed everything, simply based on political opportunism. That time was 1996-2007 when the Labor Party was in opposition. Go back to 1998-2000 to see a particularly cynical manifestation of oppositionism in the case of the GST.

      So, if conservatives have recently acquired a ‘rabid edge’ to their opposition to incumbent governments, they are still demonstrably no more rabid than the lefties have always been.

    • Freeman says:

      09:27am | 30/07/11

      “Whereas this week, she did zero TV or radio, gave no speeches, and no addresses-to-the-nation.”

      coenciding with Mal Farr’s own one week ban on carbon tax material on the Punch. He does seem to be well connected with the ALP

    • Martin says:

      12:10pm | 30/07/11

      Yes Freeman, this wasn’t lost on many of us here. Perfect timing from Mr Farr, one doesn’t have to be very bright to connect the dots.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:33pm | 30/07/11

      I have a feeling the reason for this withdrawal by Gillard is due to four major reason.

      1). The report of the impact of the cattle trade ban came out showing over 326 jobs lost and half the cattle farmers now struggling.

      2). The changes in the disability support pension that showed that over 40% of ppl on this pension will loose it and also a larger focus will be done on mental health.

      3). The Malaysia refugee agreement and the continued crisis on Christmas Island. After telling us for weeks the latest boat arrivals will be sent to other countries for proccessing it is now revealed that all the illegal boats that came will be proccessed in Australia including the latst arrival. Also it was revealed that Malaysia refugees are now going to charter smugglers to send them to Australia so that when they are returned to Malaysia (at Australia’s expense) they will be under the agreeded conditions of the Australian govt refugee deal.

      4). After taking the high and moral ground of stating that monies will never be used too fund govt campaign such as carbon tax the govt has back flipped and is using over 23 million to try to see the carbon tax.

      Also I think due to the increase in poll numbers for labor, the labor party has decieded that maybe keeping Gillard out of site is the better idea as many ppl link her as a liar and is negative to labor.

    • Charles says:

      09:40am | 30/07/11

      It is somewhat damning with faint praise when all you can say about the PM is that she is most successful when we don’t see or hear from her.

      As far as sending Swan and Combet out in her place, as a strategy it is merely hastening the trashing of the (ALP) brand that Gillard has started.  They would be better off sending someone like Deb O’Neill out as the ALP spokesman.  No-one knows who she is and she hasn’t been around long enough to upset the punters so they would probably tolerate her.

    • Mayday says:

      09:56am | 30/07/11

      The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

      The NSW Labor Government IGNORED the science when it suited and built a desalination plant at the beginning of a La Nina event when the money should have been used on more pressing infrastructure.

      The cry “what about our children’s future” has been one method used as an attempt to make the “climate change deniers” feel guilty and irresponsible.

      Combet has form with the waterfront dispute urging union members to bring their children down to the docks as part of their industrial campaign…..a sight I for one would prefer not to see again.
      The cry “what about our children’s future” has been one method used as an attempt to make the “climate change deniers” feel guilty and irresponsible.

      Combet will dive to the bottom of the barrel if it helps achieve his goals, typical form for members of this Labor Government and something which should not be rewarded.

      New election now.

    • John the ZOmbie says:

      01:37pm | 30/07/11

      I think what is more outragous is the fact that in the last days of the NSW govt it sold land worth millions for one dollar. $1.00 thats all the mining company paid and a business which has served the community for 25 years is not going to loose out.

      This is a crime and I think it is about time laws are bought in the same as company laws that allow polliticians who do illelegal deals like this to be charges and jailed.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      10:06am | 30/07/11

      Firstly I must declare that I am a scientist who believes in the nasty effects of global warming and the need for GLOBAL actions to prevent disasters.

      We in Australia are so egocentric. Using a saying from Asia we are like a frog in a well croaking away on this carbon tax and global warming. We thing the well is the centre of the World. The sad thing we do not seem to realize is that whatever we do in Australia is basically irrelevant because our share of global CO2 emission is about 1.5% and it will decrease even if we do nothing for the next ten years.

      I was very depressed a few days ago to read in the Business Times of Singapore that Indonesia is gearing to be the No 1 exporter of thermal coal. The bad thing is that two thirds of Indonesian coal are dirty low quality brown coal. They will be exported to China and India.

      This blows away the big assumption in Treasury model of the carbon tax which assumes that China and India will take effective against CO2 emission and global warming.

      Australia should forget about the carbon tax in Australia and focus on what we can do to help China and India reduce their CO2 emission.

      Start with lifting the embargo on uranium sale to India. This win-win action can help India to reduce annually CO2 emission which is MANY TIMES the annual TOTAL CO2 emission in Australia. Why inflict so much pain on Australia by the carbon tax just to reduce our annual CO2 emission by 5%.

    • jb says:

      11:40am | 30/07/11

      I totally agree, the thorium theories seem solid to huh?

    • ZSRenn says:

      12:46pm | 30/07/11

      @ Dr Goh as I have said before I cannot agree with you on this whilst India continues to build it’s military while we are asked to feed its poor.

      If an Indian banana grower has a farm next to an Anglo banana grower and both farms are for sale. No Indian farmer would buy the Indian growers land. Why? Because he would not trust the Indian grower.

      Why should we?

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:40pm | 30/07/11

      Dr Goh, I have stated this all along. The lie that Labor has used saying China is closing its coal powered stations. What they fail to say is China is building 25 more help increase the power that they require. Another thing is that this was a pre-Fukishama number and becasue China has no put a hold on thier nuclear plants till they feel it is safe to build them they will build more coal power stations.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      01:48pm | 30/07/11

      @jb.  Thanks for your comments.

      Instead of investing and wasting $10 billion on so called renewable energy we should work with India and China on Thorium Reactor Research.

      Productivity Commission figures show the cost of electricity generation last year broke down this way: coal power $79 per megawatt hour; gas $97; wind, $1502; solar $4004.

      We have sizable deposits of Thorium. We expect Thorium Reactors to be safe and it is hard to use its byproducts to make nuclear weapons.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:52pm | 30/07/11

      ZSRen I am of Indian heratige and I can tell you that Indian farmer would not sell the land as they know food is the life blood of humans and they will have a market forever.

      It is funny how you bring up the issue of Indian defence. India is investing in over 60 billion dollars to upgrade its Airforce. 60 Billion thats enough to make you faint right. Well here is the bit that most people dont know. In the region of Punjab (land of fiver rivers) known as the bread basket of India a drought is raging. This drought is caused by blocking of the rivers and pollution in the water. Farmers in these areas are boring right down in the ground for land and taking loans to survive. When all is lost these farmers are committing suicide as they have no hope of living.

      With all this happening do you think India will imposse a carbon tax, hell no as in the next 20 years India will, and this is a true fact overtake China as the most powerful economy in the world. While I was there last all I could see is brick refineries pumping out black sot into the air. When in Dehli you can see the haze of pollution as well.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      01:56pm | 30/07/11

      @ ZSRenn. Thanks. I share with you many concerns about India.

      But we must engage India in Nuclear Energy and many other matters. It is a major trading partner and a big nation in our neighborhood.

      If we are unhappy with many things which are wrong in our Asian neighbors we better start building a Fortress Australia and start planning to defend ourselves in the looming global food crisis. See the interesting recent by D J Clark at: http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/video/2011-06/15/content_12704749.htm

    • Bev says:

      02:19pm | 30/07/11

      Just for clarification.  Thorium Reactors encase the fuel in graphite balls or are you talking something else? I did read something about this type of grahite ball reactors when the subject came up.

    • John the Zombie says:

      02:20pm | 30/07/11

      In the recent plress club debate in which Lord Mokton featured the man who opposed him stated that Australia is looking at buying 12 submarines and no body knows why. Well if that gentlemen had taken sometime to read the white paper 2009 or even listerned to some of the programmes featuring Dr White he would know that the main reason is a deterent against China. It has been stated that to protect its shipping and resources routes China will park one of its battlefleets that are under contruction right next to Australias borders.

      Dr Goh, Australia will not see the rise in India for a bit as just like in the case when China started to rise our eyes were some where else and when Australia relised that China was rising and growing we had to play catch up and now this will occur with China. Australia now is so fixcated on China that it is missing any growth in India and when Australia relises what is happening we again we have to catch up. I know this because I recently did a course on International studies and its sole focus was on China.

    • JohnB says:

      02:39pm | 30/07/11

      Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia…...“coal power $79 per megawatt hour; gas $97; wind, $1502; solar $4004”.....................Those numbers are frightening. It’s not surprising the global governments contemplating a carbon tax are socialists. i.e. it’s got nothing to do with the environment.

      Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia…..“start building a Fortress Australia and start planning to defend ourselves in the looming global food crisis”......

      John the Zombie ...“can tell you that Indian farmer would not sell the land as they know food is the life blood of humans and they will have a market forever”..........

      Exactly what we should be doing. What are we doing? Exactly the opposite. Selling our farms, resources and business’s and choking Australia with more and more people. Our focus should be on retaining much of our oil and coal for our consumption, reducing our population so we can continue to EAT, and retaining wealth from the boom overseas. Nothing about Australian politics is about the long term prosperity of Australia.

      Australia is the dumbest country on the planet. We’ve been so lucky so long, we’re too used to it. It’s not going to last and it will be very painful indeed.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      03:22pm | 30/07/11

      @ Bev. On Thorium element and its uses please have a look at the easy to read article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium.

      Thorium has the interesting property that the difference between its melting point and its boiling point is 2946C. This is greatest among all elements. So if a Thorium Nuclear Reactor overheats it can be allowed to melt and be collected in a container. Thus it does not escape into the atmosphere and becomes a dangerous radioactive pollutant.

    • Gregg says:

      05:02pm | 30/07/11

      The last thing that Australia needs to be doing is to get into research on thorium nuclear power or any other nuclear power when there is already research occurring and the projected date for having anything near workable is about 40 years.

      Australia will not have the industry for building the reators and as even now occurs with coal mining, boilers, turbines, generators and much more, all that equipment is of overseas design and manufacture.
      The French and the Japanese are to the fore in Nuclear power design, manufacture, not withstanding Fukushima and as for China and India, there’ll probably be a lot of copying or manufacture under licence occurring and we do not want a Nuclear bullet train episode.

      People and governments need to get real and realise that coal needs to be used here in Australia and elsewhere for many dcades if not centuries to come and the green approach is just going to se us have more power problems as beset Sydney airport today.

      As for China buying up land, that’ll only last as long as it takes them to realise there are limitations to what can be grown on a dry continent and if they think they’ll be abl to buy up crown land in tropical regions, they need to have another think for though a fund hungry big spending government might think there’s $$$ in it, the tropics also pose other agriculturual problems as well.

      And then as for Australia keeping all the coal to ourselves, people with that idea need to have a serious think about how they think Australia can meet our balance of trade requirements, not to mention it just being a source of agitation and something that could lead to a foreign power flexing some muscle and Australia will look puny up against a nation with over fifty times our population.

      And then as for indonesia exporting coal, the success of that will just be a measure of global demand and so you had better get used to it Doc, getting depressed and getting some medication if need be.
      BTW, as for one coal being dirtier than another, a load of crap that is for there’s just a difference in calorific value and LV coal in Victoria is all brown coal so get that medication going and stick with growing tomatoes in glass houses and work on cyclone proof ones.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      05:22pm | 30/07/11

      @ John the Zombie. You know India very well. So I like to know your opinions on an issue that worries me.

      This is the issue of India’s continued population growth. Recent census says that India now has 1.2 billion people with 180,000,000 people added to India’s population within the last ten years. Within 25 years or less India will have the largest population in the World.

      So one view is that the population increases of India can be the greatest threat to the security of India. Of course similar problems exist with other nations in the Indian subcontinent. So what are your views on what can be done to avert a potential disaster for India within 50 years from the gap between population and food supply?

      You already mentioned the environmental stress for food production in Punjab.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      05:47pm | 30/07/11

      @ Gregg . Thanks for your concerns for my personal well being.

      We are a major supplier of uranium to the World and we also have ample supplies of Thorium. So it is logical that we invest money in cooperation with our trading partners in Nuclear Research.

      I am not suggesting that we aim to be leaders in Nuclear Research just like some loonies in Australia think we can be leaders in solar energy, wind power and other renewable energies.

      For energy security rather than to fight against global warming many countries are investing huge amounts of money in renewable energy. Our $10 billion in three years for R&D in renewable energy is very small compared with other countries.

      In my recent visit to Malaysia I was surprised to learn that it would become the No 1 manufacturing center in the World for photovoltaic cells used in solar energy. We seldom think of Malaysia as a country for anything significant except for orang utans, rubber and palm oil..

    • John the Zombie says:

      06:12pm | 30/07/11

      There are many issues facing India at the moment. Its increased wealth has lifted the middle class and ppl such as Tata are catering to this in regards to transport and housing. But from this growth the gap between the rich, middle class and poor is growing but even with this I do not see a massive reduction in population growth happening.

      In regards to growth one other thing that is happening is the large number of Indians leaving India. Look around the world and you will see the greatest migration numbers of ppl are from India. Even here in Australia the highest number immigtation is Indian. Another example to see the growth of Indian origin ppl we can turn to Canada where even in parliment India origin members exsist and in Singapore were a India origin man is now chief of the army.

      As I outlined the before the problems happening in Punjab which is Indias food basket. If this continues yes there will be effects on Indias population but it will more likely effect the poor then the middle or higher class. On perfect example is the massive increase in the cost of onions. Onions are a integral part of Indians dishes so when the prices soared riots broke out.

      India is a basket case of thousands of issue and yes the people will be the issue but not just due to resources but also simmering ethnic and religous issues. Also continued downward relations with Pakistan and a even more aggressive China will see most likely it grow as the flash point of any future conflict. China is stroking the fire by trying to take parts of India and also by issuing its own visas to Indian to travel overseas these are known as staple visas. China also has stated that it support Pakistan right tio Kashmir over India even though it is Indian territory. Kashmir from what I have heard has a large abondence of resources and water as well which China want to get hold off.

      Internally there is issues with the muslims with in India wanting greater rights, maoist insurgency in Nepal, the increasing of the Khalistan movement in Punjab and the large corruption in India.

      One thing is Australia must react and if we really want to ensure our economy growing we must also start looking at doing more trade in India as well as China.

      I would not be worried about India growth that much but as Barack Obama put it the current university students been left behind in the competition for jobs against Indian and Chinese future graduates. Dont forget jobs are a form of resources as well.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      06:13pm | 30/07/11

      @ Gregg.

      You have impressive detailed knowledge of many things.

      I like to know from you whether it is true that if the ALP and Green Govt down our greatest emitters of CO2 among our power stations the La Trobe Valley power stations then some smart companies will dig up these LV coal and export them to China and India, see easternvictoria.blogspot.com/2010/06/lv-coal-export-deal.html

      This is the whole weakness of the hocus pocus cabon tax. We treat CO2 as an Australian problem and ignore what much more cost effective actions can be done to achieve better outcomes.

    • Gregg says:

      07:44am | 31/07/11

      @The Doc
      ” We are a major supplier of uranium to the World and we also have ample supplies of Thorium. So it is logical that we invest money in cooperation with our trading partners in Nuclear Research. “
      Well No, it is not logical when far more advanced research is taking place and what contribution Australia could make to China or India would just be another drain on the Australian taxpayer.

      Some decades into the future, IF thorium reactors are ever proven and developed, the demand for Thorium will be sourced on the open competitive international market just as it is with all other resources products.

      ” For energy security rather than to fight against global warming many countries are investing huge amounts of money in renewable energy. Our $10 billion in three years for R&D in renewable energy is very small compared with other countries. “
      $10B for R&D is also wasteful for the science of renewables is already well known and again it will be those countries prepared to invest heavily who will be at the forefront of developments no matter how much any electricity generated will be compared to base load power stations which will still be needed, perhaps even more so if some idiots get it into their heads that they ought to be able to just rev up a coal fired steam turbine/generator unit when needed as they would in pressing a car accelerator pedal for you cannot and as a scientist you may have heard of fatigue problems, something that can cause aeroplanes to drop from the sky.
      Well load variation on massive turbines also introduces fatigue issues and premature failure of turbines can occur and that will head you to a cold and dark place for when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing, you might just have less base load capacity available.
      There is growing knowledge on health issues being associated with wind turbines and use of the molten salts heat storage principle has only been proven at a very small scale over just a few years.

      In effect, all renewables is doing other than making some people feeling warm and fuzzy about being green is putting up the cost of electricity quite enormously for everyone who is subsidising solar power through higher standard charges and taxes.
      Get your mind into the real world Doc.

      ” In my recent visit to Malaysia I was surprised to learn that it would become the No 1 manufacturing center in the World for photovoltaic cells used in solar energy. We seldom think of Malaysia as a country for anything significant except for orang utans, rubber and palm oil. “

      Malaysia has been into significant light industrial manufacturing for some decades and any plans for applying that to solar equipment is just following in the footsteps of other low labour cost countries, nothing new in that and I do not know about ” We ” but I have had other thoughts as such - typically, there’ll always be entrepreneurs looking to jump onto any latest gravy train and no better place to do it than where labour is cheap - that’s the real world again Doc.

    • Gregg says:

      08:26am | 31/07/11

      @Doc.
      ” I like to know from you whether it is true that if the ALP and Green Govt down our greatest emitters of CO2 among our power stations the La Trobe Valley power stations then some smart companies will dig up these LV coal and export them to China and India, see easternvictoria.blogspot.com/2010/06/lv-coal-export-deal.html

      This is the whole weakness of the hocus pocus cabon tax. We treat CO2 as an Australian problem and ignore what much more cost effective actions can be done to achieve better outcomes. “

      The LV coal seam though predominantly brown and of higher moisture content and lower calorific value than black coal is still quite a good fuel source to the extent that it has been in use for power generation in the LV for nearly a century now.
      Though there is conjecture re the governments proposal re market dismantling of 2000 MW being aimed at Hazelwood PS in the LV, Hazelwood in being constructed on the 1950s/60s is on its last legs anyway, nominal power station life in the past being planned for about 30 -40 years and Hazelwood has been given heart surgery you could say and then with privatisation of the SECV in the 1990s it has been run even harder than what initial design rating was.
      There had already been some talk of one of the generating units or pair being converted to a gas fired plant, that in itself a major re-design and reconstruction exercise and not totally unviable for one of the factors associated with coal fired plants life is that the more coal burnt means the location from where it is dug moves further away from the power station and hence more conveying and associated issues, river diversions and the like etc.

      As to when exactly Hazelwood closes, that is likely still to be determined by the market for the way the eastern coast power grid functions these days is like an open market with demand being met by different power generators bidding a price to supply and that constantly changing with load demands and power generators costs.
      The more pressing problem no governments seem prepared to face is where will near 2000 MW of new power come from if Hazelwood does close and that the federal government is hanging a carrot there, if it happens sooner than later, the pressing problem may become more immediate.
      A new Coal fired power station can take about ten years from initial planning to operation.

      As to whether coal will ever be exported from the LV, it does already in a limited dried form - Briquettes though there has only been a limited location of different coal quality suitable for briquettes and they have been exported as far as Europe - not sure what current contracts are held.

      There are different coal seams within the LV and the properties can vary slightly or more in the case of coal for briquettes but whereas it is different to the NSW ” black ” coal that is marketed overseas mainly as coking coal, one great advantage of all Australian surface coal is that it is relatively close to the surface.
      For instance in the LV you have coal seams of several hundred feet thickness covered by only twenty or thirty feet of overburden whereas in Germany they excavate several hundred feet or even metres of overburden to get to relatively narrow seams.

      Whether the LV coal is ever thought of as being a larger export proposition is really a matter for the state and federal governments and it will certainly raise the stakes of discussion in Victoria and possibly for Australia of where will the power come from and should we be exporting the power source for future generations, just as there is a lot of discussion re proposed coal fields inland from the Hunter Valley and loss of good farming land.
      Perhaps the LV will be a catalyst for a Nuclear decision.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      09:10am | 31/07/11

      Australia is the highest per capita carbon emitter of carbon at about 20 tonnes a year per individual. The relevant figures for China and India respectively are 4 and 1.6 tonnes. It is fatuous nonense to suggest that we can do something about the “need for GLOBAL actions to prevent disasters” unless we take steps to remedy our own situation first.
      Having been to China and India, I know that the hypocrisy of such a stance is well understood in both those countries and is regarded as a hangover from colonialist times. Besides it is wrong to suggest that they aren’t taking any steps to lessen their reliance on fossil fuels. China has the largest renewal energy workforce in the world employing over a million people and India is beginning to follow suit.
      You mention “so much pain” this carbon pricing is supposed to inflict could you explain where and why (?).  The government, by pricing carbon, is is simply saying to the biggest polluters, that the environment can no longer be considered the universal free rubbish tip for by-products of the industrial process. We have long known about the harmful effects of burning fossil fuels and the time for action is overdue. The pain in not acting will be many times worse than any adjustments to our lifestyles we may have to make to lessen our carbon footprint.

    • Damian Vojtek says:

      10:23am | 30/07/11

      Yeah send out Wayne Swan to fix your problems that will work…. LMAO. The guy is a dunce.

    • hazym says:

      10:39am | 30/07/11

      Paul Keating’s maxim, when things weren’t going well, was to “Throw a chunk of bloodied meat in the opposite direction.”. And that’s what the government’s done this week. Now we’re all talking about media inquiries and Murdoch and Malaysia and tax summits.

      As the CO2 tax recedes from the front pages, its entirely conceivable that some of the incandesent rage will abate. But at some point the tax has to become front page again and then the ALP are back trying to defend the indefensible.

      Still, Mr Kenny, as usual, is right here in that the government policy now is to shut the hell up. The main virtue with that policy is that every time they try to do ‘sumfing’ they just end up in more do-do so a period of quiet reflection is called for and will have a positive effect on that 8 or so % of ALP base supporters who were lost to it in the CO2 tax debacle.

    • BobM says:

      11:06am | 30/07/11

      @Hazym - It is obviously the strategy of the Labor party to get the carbon tax off the news and out of the public’s view so that, as you say,  “its entirely conceivable that some of the incandesent rage will abate”. 

      Even that twit on the ABC’s Insiders, Barrie Cassidy, is suggesting that Julia ‘dissappear’ and ‘stop talking about the carbon tax’ - 

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-21/cassidy-gillards-counterproductive-carbon-tax-conversation/2803232

      No, the Labor way is to suppress any discussion and hide the public’s outrage at being lied to.  Note that even The Punch had a ‘carbon tax free week’ - even this lot have no ticker and will do Labor’s bidding.

      If it’s too hot in the kitchen Julia, call an election and you can go on a loooong holiday along with most of the members of your Green/Labor party.

    • JT says:

      12:09pm | 30/07/11

      ‘‘And that’s what the government’s done this week. Now we’re all talking about media inquiries and Murdoch and Malaysia and tax summits.’‘

      So you’re saying the governments strategy at the moment is to divert attention away from their incompetence and lies re: carbon tax to their incompetence and lies re: boat people, tax summits and media censorship.

      Yep, sounds about right. This government is terminal and the sooner they die, the better.

    • TJF says:

      10:57am | 30/07/11

      I am not a fan of the carbon tax - or Gillard. But the only way Gillard can get out of her mess is to acknowledge she has hit rock bottom - call a press conference and publically tell RUDD, the Greens and the independents to start towing the line - call there bluff challenge them to ‘walk’ if they want. People have had a gut full of the likes of Oakshot and co calling the shots over issues that day day Australians don’t care about. All of these idiots thrive on power they don’t want to lose it, none of them will walk as they continually threaten to do so - the current polls tell even blind Freddy that Abbott will cruise in and most of them will be sent back to the stone age. Why not use these circumstances to her advantage - you never no people may actually start to think she is a leader?

    • Shooter says:

      11:04am | 30/07/11

      All politicians are backstabbing two faced liars. All political leaders are puppets on a string. All who follow are just as bad.

    • Lapun says:

      11:05am | 30/07/11

      As a long-life-long Liberal dating back to the days of Menzies and not liking today’s political scene at all, I must say that the less seen and, particularly, heard of, Julia Gillard the better.  But I too am becoming disillusioned and frustrated with the Abbott attack even though it works to some extent.  I do believe it will undoubtedly turn around and bite him on the proverbial in time, and the sooner he tells us what he will do, rather than what he won’t do, the better.  There are many conservatives out here that seriously want something done about the rape and destruction of our planet’s resources, just as much as we want statesmanship rather than politics.  To my old mind there is only one person in the 2 parties who could give us that, and he is unfortunately in opposition at the moment - and muzzled.
      Mark says everything necessary in the final sentence of his article.

    • JT says:

      12:13pm | 30/07/11

      ‘‘rape and destruction of our planet’s resources’‘?

      I doubt any clear minded conservative with common sense would call mining and logging that form the very basis of our entire civilisation raping the earth.

      I just don’t get you Labor apologists, why do you pretend to be conservatives? Why the shame in coming out and admitting you are not right wing, not conservative, but are indeed left wing socialists masking your true allegiance with bs posts like this. Does lying really come that easily to you?

    • Lapun says:

      12:27pm | 30/07/11

      Holy Mackerel, JT!  What are you on?

    • Tom says:

      12:38pm | 30/07/11

      Good call, JT. Amazing how Labor posters continue to place their hands on their hearts and plead for Turnbull’s return.

      Such earnesty, reach for the tissues. It always has the same hook in there “I used to vote LNP” or “I would vote for LNP if only ...”  Just Labor junkmail.

      Polls would seem to indicate that people have woken up to Labor lying.

    • Bev says:

      01:03pm | 30/07/11

      Malcom tried and made a complete hash of it as I recall.

    • Steve says:

      01:19pm | 30/07/11

      Hey Lapun. Wantok hia. Yu bin where?

      You are right on most points (as usual) but I think the rape and destruction is a bit too dramatic.

      You are not the only one who misses the “muzzled” one but those feelings are to kept in the cone of silence for now.  The present Govt is destructive to the long term prospects of this country and must be defeated at the next election. The choice of general is a secondary issue compared to the imperative of a coalition victory.

      Lukim

    • Martin Hopes says:

      01:26pm | 30/07/11

      @ Lapun - Well said, there are many more who agree with your sentiments.

      @ JT -  Why can’t you accept the fact that there are long time Liberal supporters (I know many) who are not happy with the current state of Australian politics being played out on both sides of the political fence?

      Why are they considered Labor apologists or pretend conservatives? Are they not entitled to an opinion that might not suit your own red-neck attitude?

    • JT says:

      01:55pm | 30/07/11

      @Martin Hopes - I am sure there might be some but I see no evidence Lapun is one of them, he uses the same tired old Labor lines, spin and ‘‘hyper-bowl’’ that has become the norm for them.

      Secondly if you were truly concerned by the state of politics in Australia, your concern should lie almsot entirely with what Labor is doing to Australia.

      It was not the Coalition who entered into a deal with the devil type agreement with the Greens and Independents, it is not the Coalition currently beholden to them, It is not the Coalition currently letting Bob Brown dictate policy, it is not the Coalition letting their core idealogy be subverted and trampled by extremists and single issue independents. Get the picture yet?

      The entire blame for the mess that is the current state of politics lies solely with Labor and they have it within their power to change it, to return to their core values, to throw off the shackles of minority govt (and yes probably lose power), to take a stand and step up as the real leaders of the government but alas they do not and as far as I can see, no wishin and hopin on Mark Kennys part or lies by Lapun will change that.

    • lapun says:

      02:22pm | 30/07/11

      Hey Steve! Poroman - yu orait?  I seem to have stirred up someone calling himself JT!  OMG if only he knew me - handing out how-to-vote cards at 10y.o.!  Nobody could be LESS an apologist for Labor or the Greens than me, and I would have thought that was clear from my beginning.  Martin Hopes obviously gets it.  One can be a confirmed Liberal and still have strong feelings about things like the environment and where we are heading as a country.  But I must make the disclosure that the “muzzled” one did go to the same school as I, but then so did Edmund Barton! 
      Well the “rape and destruction” may sound a little extreme, but for just how long can our country sustain our growing population when we mine to the limit, pollute our atmosphere, etc..  But when Pekpek hits the fan I don’t suppose I’ll still be around !
      Bye-the bye, do you suppose ‘‘hyper-bowl’’ might really be “hyperbole”.

      OK. Mi go nau - lukim yu bihain.

    • Steve says:

      02:47pm | 30/07/11

      I am aware there are numerous ALP supporters who play the “bring back turnbull game”  in order to destabalise the coalition.

      However, based on previous posts I would attest that Lapun is not in that group and is simply a coalition supporter who would prefer Turnbull as leader.

      Having said that I think that the coalition is best served by keeping those preferences quiet for now.

      Noken tok tok olsem Lapun.

    • JT says:

      04:31pm | 30/07/11

      ‘‘Well the “rape and destruction” may sound a little extreme, but for just how long can our country sustain our growing population when we mine to the limit’‘

      About 100 years of coal is left at current rates of production (in Australia, more worldwide), since we export a fair bit of it (half I think), that figure is probably double if we confine its use to here only. So to answer your question, based on coal power only, a bloody long time. If we include using nuclear power which if we the count ability to extract uranium from seawater is approx 60,000 years.  You count on being around in another 100-60000 years there Lapun?

      ‘‘pollute our atmosphere’‘

      With what? that odourless, colourless, trace amount of CO2? of which 3% of the total in the air is there because of Humans, and of that 3% Australia is responsible for 1.5%.

    • Tom says:

      11:39am | 30/07/11

      What eye-wash. ... “... guardians of stabilising conventions and institutions, conservatism has taken on a rabid edge with its exponents now the ones most inclined to junk tradition in pursuit of power.”

      Since when has opposing this carbon tax a “rabid edge” or “junking traditions”? Pure left wing hype. What shameless propaganda.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      09:31am | 31/07/11

      Really simple Tom. Abbott thinks climate change is “crap” but he still has his silly idea for bribing the polluters to stop polluting. By putting a price on carbon the government has enacted a market based mechanism which should have been the approach of a supposedly free market party such as the Liberals. If you really believe Abbott’s scheme follows Liberal Party traditions explain to me how it is anything other than corporate socialism.

    • Dave says:

      01:25pm | 30/07/11

      Your comment:Just another example of the destruction of Labor Government in this country, We are living in a Constitutional dictatorship, is a form of government in which dictatorial powers are exercised during an emergency. The dictator is not absolute and the dictator’s authority remains limited by the constitution, but instead of an emergency, Australia has gone further, and the architecture is this Labor Federal Government, as tyrants and oppressors who is exercises absolute power, this is not a democratic society where it relates to a political system in which the supreme power is held and exercised by the people, Labor is showing other wise where ie; Carbon Tax, and other Taxes, Fuel,  cost of living, hospitals, the list is too long. I ask you who is getting rich over this???, not us. The dollar is not worth the paper its written on. Wages is not enough to live on.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      12:53pm | 31/07/11

      That’s a new one -a partial dictator.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:56pm | 30/07/11

      All those opposed to the Carbon Tax should return there booklets to thier local Labor party office and tell them what you think of the tax and also why did Juliar lie when she said she would not spend money on these types of campaign.

      One thing I did learn that when Howard went to an election saying he would implement the GST all monies for this campaign at the start came from the the liberal party.

    • Steve says:

      02:20pm | 30/07/11

      I come from WA where the ALP holds 3 of our state’s 15 seats in the lower house. I actually don’t have a local ALP office to return my booklet to. It’s a bit like trying to find a local liberal office is Tassie.

    • Glen says:

      08:24pm | 31/07/11

      Like Steve I’m in WA.  I anticipate WA being a labor free state after the next election.  The disgust with labor is repeated by everyeon from every walk of life that I have come into contact with and I speak to lots of people.

    • Mouse says:

      09:33pm | 31/07/11

      Just RTS the pamphlet back to Canberra, that way they are returned to the sender, who might then get the message!

    • H B Bear says:

      02:01pm | 30/07/11

      The desperate sounds of straws being clutched and dead cats bouncing.  A PM whose only hope of improving in the polls is to disappear.  Just when you think this government couldn’t get any worse… and that intellectual giant Wayne Swan is about to get started on tax reform. 

      Spare us.

    • nossy says:

      04:10pm | 30/07/11

      @H B Bear - heres another fact to scare you HHB - Swanny is only a hearbeat away from being our PM!  hahahahhahaah

    • DaS Energy says:

      03:11pm | 30/07/11

      I actualy agree with Vicky Monaghan, To Abbott.  “Why do you persist with the scaremongering the coal industry faces certain demise?”  Step outside Juliars confines of debate and do the sums. 70% of Carbon emissions in Australia come Coal fired electricity. Neither Solar nor Wind can match Coal on price for electricity.  Coal fired electricity is long established with many a government hand out, not so new technology. Despite the the lies of Juliar and backers New Technology is not to be funded but may be eligable for a loan is selected by Juliars select panel, (read Juliars paper advertisements, its there in black and white)
      Coal is the only sure medium for base load power 24/7.  The Carbon tax shall increase the costs of making alternate technology yet those cost are no where factored in.  The Carbon tax is to ensure there remains Carbon to be taxed as it is inperative fo over compensation to some punters, and windfall monies for government coffers. Just add up all the wonderfull money handouts government Juliar and backers promises from the Carbon tax, then ask how these shall be continued without Coal making such a wonderfull contribution to the Carbon Tax. Coal mining was first threatened by Rudd, and it was the Coal Unions that slipped Juliar the knife to stop him. The only real threat facing coal miners is the Carbon Tax not getting up to impose huge costs across this country preventing New Technology getting a toe hold.  As for Juliars argument the Carbon tax shall force alternates, why in Gods name when there is no competitive price to coal fired electricity would any company go to enormouse expense in attempt to make their product cheaper.

    • persephone says:

      03:28pm | 30/07/11

      Hi everyone

      for some reason, I can’t reply to posts directly where they occur, so you’ll have to bear with me.

      Yes, Abbott is a wrecker. Which is why the indies decided not to put him anywhere near the reins of power, and why - despite his best efforts - they are movng further away from him, not closer to him.

      The fact that he can’t persuade even a couple of members of Parliament to cross the floor to support him on even one minor amendment to a government bill tells you that he has absolutely no negotiating skills, and no ideas which are good enough to win over even right leaning independents.

      As I said, I don’t know of any other leader of an Opposition in his situation who has such an appalling record. Most minority governments lose at least some battles. This one wins every time.

      He’s so bad, one member of the Coalition is sitting on the cross benches, and another is serving as Deputy Speaker at the behest of Labor.

      And if Julias’ been taking it easy this week, so has Abbott.

      jf

      no, middle aged. Currently setting up a small business. This will be my second; the other’s still in operation.

      I’d say I’m very similar to many of those you describe - active in my community, kids at public school, living in a regional area, and yes, doing it tough.

      However, I recognise a lot of the ‘toughness’ is because of the world economic situation. Easy credit has dried up - and although that’s a good thing, we were very used to being able to get an extension on our loans when we wanted it.

      Most people recognise (sometimes not even consciously!) that the world’s a very uncertain place at the moment. They know things aren’t good in place like America, and they know that that’s got implications for us. So they’re being more conscious of their spending.

      And of course that uneasiness makes them distrustful and nervous about what governments are doing, at every level.

      And, after all, if you’re doing it tough, no one likes to admit it’s their fault - that they borrowed too much, or invested unwisely, or aren’t as secure in their job as they once believed.

      That’s a phenomena I’ve observed with local small businesses; when times are tough, they look for someone else to blame. They don’t look at other small businesses around them which are thriving and ask what they’re dong that’s different, because they don’t want to contemplate that they might be in someway to blame for their situation.

      So the community feeling jumpy and on edge and blaming the government for this doesn’t necessarily mean the government’s to blame, just that they’re a convenient scapegoat.

      Empirically, the government is a good one. It rode out the GFC more successfully than any other government in the developed world, and came out of it with lower unemployment and less debt. It made wise decisions about how to spend the money it borrowed to keep us out of the GFC. It is putting in place a series of major reforms which will have long lasting benefits to the whole community for many decades to come.

      So I’m proud to support it. Certainly it’s a far more positive and forward thinking outfit than the alternative.

      OK, now I’m going to start another post, just to make sure I don’t lose anything!

    • jf says:

      04:44pm | 30/07/11

      Perse

      “Empirically, the government is a good one.”

      Emperically and anecdotally this government is a complete and utter disaster. By any measure.

      We made it through GFC I in good shape because we had a strong economy as a consequence of a decade of excellent governance, sound prudential regulations for our financial system and the mining boom.

      If you are for a moment suggesting that a government that had been in for five minutes mitigated the effects of one of the most significant financial shocks in history because they gave us each $900 and wasted money on a myriad of initiatives then you are either being wilfully ignorant or simply don’t understand economics - my bet is on the former. Furthermore, even if you are suggesting that, they only reason that they had the money to spend was because of the former government. Had we just had ten years of Labor in the lead up to the GFC god only knows what level of shit we would now be in.

      Furthermore, all the recent economic and financial indicators suggest that we have struggled through the brief recovery. And now, as we face uncertain global economic conditions we’ve fired all of our fiscal bullets and hopelessly hamstrung the private sector. We are set to reap a very bitter harvest from this government’s first crop.

    • MarK says:

      09:24pm | 30/07/11

      ” persephone says:

        03:28pm | 30/07/11

        Hi everyone”

      yawn

      ”  for some reason, I can’t reply to posts directly where they occur, so you’ll have to bear with me.”

      Sure we put up with you

        ” Yes, Abbott is a wrecker.”

      Ahh repetition. Does not make it true.

      ” Which is why the indies decided not to put him anywhere near the reins of power, and why - despite his best efforts - they are movng further away from him, not closer to him.”
      No. You are lying.

      Lying happens when you do not tell the truth.

      It is pathetic. Since repetition seems to be your only ploy I will repeat myself.

      An ex green and 2 ex nats that have cost themselves the respect of their electorates are not really

      Stop lying. Lies are bad. Teach your kids that. Poor buggers.

        ” The fact that he can’t persuade even a couple of members of Parliament to cross the floor to support him on even one minor amendment to a government bill tells you that he has absolutely no negotiating skills, and no ideas which are good enough to win over even right leaning independents.”

      HAHAHAHA

      It doesn’t work like that you liar. they make amendments before they hit the floor. Show me examples of this in action anywhere else.

      Liar.

      ”  As I said, I don’t know of any other leader of an Opposition in his situation who has such an appalling record. Most minority governments lose at least some battles. This one wins every time.”

      Oh bullshit. Name examples. You are lying again you pathetic woman

      ”  He’s so bad, one member of the Coalition is sitting on the cross benches, and another is serving as Deputy Speaker at the behest of Labor.”

      So what?

      Who cares? Name me the vote cooke has voted against that cost. name me slippers great big double cross.

      Oh that’s right there is none.

      More lies

        ”  And if Julias’ been taking it easy this week, so has Abbott.”

      HAHAHAHA.

      All about Tony again. Gosh you guys are still playing that old bait and switch game.

      That is the only trick you sycophants have left. Talk about Tony. Cowards.

      ”  jf

        no, middle aged. Currently setting up a small business. This will be my second; the other’s still in operation.”

      Good luck

      ”  I’d say I’m very similar to many of those you describe - active in my community, kids at public school, living in a regional area, and yes, doing it tough.”

      Awwww

        ” However, I recognise a lot of the ‘toughness’ is because of the world economic situation. Easy credit has dried up - and although that’s a good thing, we were very used to being able to get an extension on our loans when we wanted it.”

      Wow. You really want to spin it all out huh

      ”  Most people recognise (sometimes not even consciously!) that the world’s a very uncertain place at the moment. They know things aren’t good in place like America, and they know that that’s got implications for us. So they’re being more conscious of their spending.”

      It is everyone else’s fault except labor.gotcha

        “And of course that uneasiness makes them distrustful and nervous about what governments are doing, at every level.”

      Particularly when the government that is in lies outrageously.

        ”  And, after all, if you’re doing it tough, no one likes to admit it’s their fault - that they borrowed too much, or invested unwisely, or aren’t as secure in their job as they once believed.”

      Or hear the government lying to them. taxing them more. Increasing the cost of all inputs


        ” That’s a phenomena I’ve observed with local small businesses; when times are tough, they look for someone else to blame. They don’t look at other small businesses around them which are thriving and ask what they’re dong that’s different, because they don’t want to contemplate that they might be in someway to blame for their situation.”

      OMG this is getting nauseating

        ” So the community feeling jumpy and on edge and blaming the government for this doesn’t necessarily mean the government’s to blame, just that they’re a convenient scapegoat.”

      HAHAHAHA

        ”  Empirically, the government is a good one. It rode out the GFC more successfully than any other government in the developed world, and came out of it with lower unemployment and less debt. It made wise decisions about how to spend the money it borrowed to keep us out of the GFC. It is putting in place a series of major reforms which will have long lasting benefits to the whole community for many decades to come.”

      SO many lies in such a short paragraph. the spin is still strong in you.

        ”  So I’m proud to support it. Certainly it’s a far more positive and forward thinking outfit than the alternative.”

      HAHAHAHAHAHA

      Whatever. You be proud,. There is a good girl

        ”  OK, now I’m going to start another post, just to make sure I don’t lose anything!

      God help us

    • persephone says:

      03:37pm | 30/07/11

      Martin

      girding her loins for another bash at it?

      We won’t know that she hasn’t continued unless there’s no further activity for a couple of weeks.

      Meanwhile, Abbott’s been fairly quiet as well.

      Joan

      if it was stacked (by Sky News? The Courier Mail? Er, yeah, right) for her, it was stacked for Tony, too. Yet the outcomes were different.

      Bev

      we don’t need to assume a thing. The articles give us the facts.

      http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/julia-gillard-set-to-front-peoples-forum-in-brisbane-to-explain-carbon-tax/story-e6freoof-1226093416572

      ‘Of the 112 people who cast their vote as they entered the forum, only 23 people, a mere 20.5 per cent, said they were in favour of the carbon tax.

      Another 42 people said they did not support the tax, 47 said they were undecided and another five did not cast a vote.

      On the way out of the room, support for the carbon tax had doubled to 41 per cent.

      Ms Gillard drew support from both the previous opponents and undecided voters.’

      So she doubled her vote.

      Remember, what I’m trying to show here is that - unlike the poster above claimed - Gillard does not put off voters when they meet her.

      If she did, the votes would have moved in the other direction.

      Oh, and on line polls told us there was massive antagonism towards the flood levy and towards freezing benefits for households earning $150 k plus. The online polls were wrong in both cases.

    • Stuart says:

      05:02pm | 30/07/11

      Gillard has done the smartest move in her life by sticking her head in the sand,out of site out of mind,but it’s a great pity that she won’t stay out of sight for long,she’ll be back to haunt us to the grave.

    • Gregg says:

      07:52am | 31/07/11

      The head might get in aways but that still leaves a rumpuous traget to sink the boots into.

    • michael j says:

      05:05pm | 30/07/11

      Well the Mad Abbot was in for a chance for a DD i thought ,but now the green Masters have taken Canberra by storm He has no chance,Abbot will not make it threw the next few years to the next election,,you cannot survive by Laywer tactics ,,shut up and if you have to talk for Christ sake don’t say anything,,
      a Policy is needed by the LIBS an Abbot wont be in it ,,

    • Martin says:

      11:02am | 31/07/11

      Amazing analysis.  Labor attracts some impressive types, doesn’t it?

    • Terry says:

      05:35pm | 30/07/11

      If Julia Gillard was my darling daughter I would write…............

      My darling Jewels, I write to you at a time when I think I’ve never felt worse for the people you represent . The idiots who now do not respect the high office you hold. These people my darling are driving me right round the bend and causing me and your mother great pain at the horrible things said about you. Their worst move so far was by the broadcaster, named Allan Jones in stating over the airwaves that you and Bob Brown should be put in a chaff bag, taken out to sea and made to swim back. He was joking off course but still to attack a sitting PM in that way is disrespectful. These terrible remarks made about you and the calls of ‘liar’ shows that all respect and trust given to a sitting PM is all but lost.

      It shocks and disturbs me and I am beginning to worry that you are losing touch of reality, having a harder and harder time discerning it. With this comes the fantasy that everything is blending together very well that you get to a point you can’t tell the difference.

      In short my dearest Jewels, the people are are very angry, have a great dislike of you and want you out of office. It hurts me to say but it is the reality of what was the proudest moment of my life, the day you were installed as PM of this great country…..........................

    • persephone says:

      07:25pm | 30/07/11

      Nup, still won’t let me reply directly to posts (is this meant to be a hint, moderators???)

      jf

      I’m not suggesting anything - I’m saying what economists internationally have said.

      And yes, it would have been easy, despite all of those factors you mention, to stuff up the response.

      People do forget what was happening. Australian banks had stopped loaning to each other - so the government introduced a guarantee, which gave them the confidence to do that again. They were criticised for that by the Opposition (who wouldn’t have done it) but in the end it cost nothing and it allowed the movement of money to recommence.

      That’s just one example.

      As for the rest; the retail sector recognised at the time that the $900 payouts allowed them to continue operating, boosted consumer confidence (which had fallen dramatically) and thus kept people in work in the retail sector for longer. (Some of them wasted the time this bought them, and are now suffering the consequences of poor risk management).

      The BER and other building programs kept the building industry ticking over, again at a time when work was drying up due to lack of confidence. Without the guarantee of work into the future, many building companies would have been laying off staff. Again, thousands of jobs were saved.

      Equally importantly, by targetting schools, the government was able to spread these jobs over the whole of the country, so that regional communities didn’t suffer at the expense of cities.

      The fact that it also provided much needed school infrastructure, which will still be being used for decades, was actually just a bonus - it was more beneficial than painting rocks (which, in the past, has often been all that such programs engaged in).

      The previous government (building on the Hawke/Keating reforms) did leave some good things in place, something I certainly have never denied. It could have left a larger surplus - the one it did leave was too small to make that much of a difference. And fortunately it was socialist enough to recognise that banks do need regulation.

      As for mining, in the initial stages of the GFC it in fact contributed to the problems faced by this country. It reacted according to classic economics, laying off staff and withdrawing investment. It was only when it became clear that the government did have the situation under control, and that China was going to continue to grow (which was not at all certain at the time) that they re engaged.

      Failure by the government to bouy the jobs market in the way they did would have resulted in huge numbers of unemployed, many of whom would still be without jobs, a huge increase in social security payments, and a loss of tax revenue (driven by the loss of jobs).

      Furthermore, this loss of jobs would have meant less money circulating in the community - and those small businesses you’re talking about would not be merely struggling to survive, they would well and truly have gone under by now.

    • Disraeli says:

      10:05am | 31/07/11

      Perspehone, agree with you.

      All the whining from the Right about problems with the various GFC programs cutely glosses over the fact that those were pretty well all down to the incompetence and greed of a minority of small businesses.

      Thanks to those programs, we’re in a better place to weather whatever happens in the US next week, than we would have been if we were stuck deep in the sort of recession that Abbott and Hockey would have dropped us.

    • jf says:

      11:09am | 31/07/11

      persephone says:

      “I’m not suggesting anything - I’m saying what economists internationally have said.”

      International economists said nothing of the sort. If anything, apart from acknowledging that Australian dodged GFC I because of a strong economy and strong prudential regulations, there was general recognition that the first stimulus package was not a bad idea (the opposition supported this). I agree. However, for this government to be claiming to have saved Australia from GFC is quite simply bullshit. No credible economist has suggested the they did.

      “And yes, it would have been easy, despite all of those factors you mention, to stuff up the response.”

      I agree. And they have. We have nothing left with which to combat the next round of global economic shocks.

      “in the end it cost nothing and it allowed the movement of money to recommence.”

      Of course it cost something. Do you not understand the mechanism of the bank guarantee? Do you, like Wayne Swan and the rest of the federal cabinet, simply not understand the relatively simple concept of ‘risk premium’. Jesus wept. 

      “As for the rest; the retail sector recognised at the time that the $900 payouts allowed them to continue operating, boosted consumer confidence (which had fallen dramatically) and thus kept people in work in the retail sector”

      Yeah, how’s the medium (let along long term) impact of that looking now Perse?

      “(Some of them wasted the time this bought them, and are now suffering the consequences of poor risk management.”

      Some of them? Do you actually talk to people Perse? Retail spending is down across the board. It is a disaster.
      “The BER and other building programs kept the building industry ticking over, again at a time when work was drying up due to lack of confidence.”

      I have a mate who’s in the construction game. During that period he had his best two years in the over twenty years in the game. He made more money during a downturn than he ever had in the boom times. He laughs at the way money was just handed out hand over fist to already relatively wealthy people. He despises the government for their waste and incompetence. And he was one of the ones that didn’t rort it.

      “Without the guarantee of work into the future, many building companies would have been laying off staff. Again, thousands of jobs were saved.”

      Temporarily. This government sits there playing chess one move at a time. Patting itself on the back for each move of a piece. Quietly setting up a disaster.

      “Equally importantly, by targetting schools, the government was able to spread these jobs over the whole of the country, so that regional communities didn’t suffer at the expense of cities.”

      You say that you live in regional centres Perse. Do you actually talk to people or do you sit at home reading ALP press releases. Official unemployment in the regions is very high. Underemployment of self-employed tradies is off the charts.

      “And fortunately it was socialist enough to recognise that banks do need regulation.”

      It was also socialist enough to fnck the economy so badly that it was responsible for our most recent recession (until the impending one that is). But importantly, you see merit in socialism despite the fact that it has unilaterally and cruelly failed in every single country in which it has been tried. Sure everyone is equal (except for the ruling class of course) – equally miserable, equally subjugated and equally disenfranchised. I hadn’t picked you for a socialist but now that you have shown your colours. You are a drone for the ALP. They are never responsible for anything – the economy is stuffed because of the GFC, confidence is down because of the opposition, people criticise Gillard because she’s a woman, the media is critical of the government because of the media (something with which even Phillip Adams disagrees), the GFC was made worse by the mining sector (WTF) and now retail is stuffed because retailers are poor managers and poor risk managers. People who have been in business for longer than you’ve been out of school are poor at what they do.

      I had thought you a reasonable and informed person. But your arrogance and ignorance is astounding. Stop reading the ALP literature and talk to your neighbour, to the owner of the next shop you walk into, the school principal at your kid’s school. They will tell you that their cost of living has sky rocketed, that the time and cost involved in running a business makes doing so unworkable, that people are not spending and that they didn’t need a $600,000 tuckshop because the existing one was fine.

    • Martin says:

      12:12pm | 31/07/11

      Oh is that right Disraeli? Instead of being $20 Billion in the black we are $100 Billion + in th red and rising, simply because of the “various GFC programs”  that Labor wasted money on.. You bleat “thanks to those programs, we’re in a better place to weather whatever happens in the US”  what when we are $100 Billion + in debt? Wake up to yourself, you’re completely deluded.

    • Martin says:

      12:40pm | 31/07/11

      jf well said, sadly your comments are too sensible and based on real situations, so Labor parrots like Propaganda Phone that sit in student union offices or have their arse planted on a government paid seat down in Canberra will never understand what you are saying because they will never experience what you are talking about.

    • thatmosis says:

      06:45am | 31/07/11

      Oh dear another Labor idiot thats added to the list to ignore Thanks Martin Hopes you make the reading of these blogs easier as I now dont have to read your ramblings and crap as well. Hope you are paid well by your masters to put this crap forward. The longer this debate goes on the more clowns come out of the woodwork defending the indefensible, the liar called Giilard who continues to lie daily, when she can be reached. Cant wait for her to come up this way so I can meet her in person and tell her to her face what I really think of her and her Government. As an aside I cant defend Alan Jones idea of putting her in a bag and throwing her out to sea, perfectly good waste of a good bag in my opinion.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      11:39am | 31/07/11

      @ thatmosis - Lapun in an earlier post said in part - “I must say that the less seen and, particularly, heard of, Julia Gillard the better”

      I agreed with him by saying his comment was well said - and you call me a Labor idiot and you hope I am well paid by my masters to put this crap forward…strange indeed.

      Some of us like ‘nossy’ look at both sides of the debate, we are swinging voters, and it is the swinging voter who decides election outcomes!

      I actually believe that the ‘clowns’ are those people who are rusted onto any one political party, regardless of the topic, their opinion never changes due to their ideology, and it is their comments that become irrelevant in any political debate…like yourself perhaps!

    • Steve Putnam says:

      01:09pm | 31/07/11

      “I can’t defend Alan Jones idea of putting her in a bag and throwing her out to sea, perfectly good waste of a good bag” You really are an utter creep!

    • Martin says:

      01:12pm | 31/07/11

      Well done thatmosis. Martin Hopes is a magnificent crap talker.  In his latest burst of enthusiasm for all things Labor, he has suggested that he is in fact a swinging voter! LMAO

    • Martin Hopes says:

      04:55pm | 31/07/11

      Martin @ 01:12pm - You can believe what you want Martin; I can’t recall voting for the same party in consecutive elections, and I’ve been voting since the 1970’s. Regardless, the following linked story is embarrassing for Tony Abbott; you can’t spin it any other way.

      http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/dear-julia-you-have-it-right-on-your-carbon-tax-20110730-1i5cc.html

      “Mr Abbott attended the Conservative Party’s annual conference in London in 2010 shortly after he became Opposition Leader and was seen to be aligning policy values with his British Conservative counterpart”

      Only recently, the Liberal party were praising Mr Cameron as a visionary on climate change, dear oh dear, I look forward to Mr Abbott’s response to this.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      11:03am | 31/07/11

      @ nossy - Make sure there are no nails sticking out of that fence nossy, you could do yourself a nasty injury wink

    • Miranda says:

      11:48am | 31/07/11

      Oh oh oh oh nossy, it seems is edging his way back to Gillard because the British Liberal PM Cameron has said Gillard’s carbon tax is a bold and ambitious one but nothing to say it was economically the best one for the political climate Australians have found themselves in.

      I think nossy never did let go, unlike myself who voted Labor and admired Gillard have changed from being angry @ the Labor party to now feeling sorry for Gillard will turn my back on them as to teach them a lesson never to align themselves to the Greens, or the Independents, people that would have never given their allegiance to the Coalition led by Abbott. Gillard compromising Labor values in the deal she made with the Greens, Wilkie, Oakeshott and Windsor to win them over, allowing to remain the PM should have never been made because these clowns were going to support her anyway. It is happening before our eyes, crystal clear.

      When those of us that voted Labor are now feeling sorry for Gillard, is not good and only means that the PM is diabolically on the nose.

    • nossy says:

      11:49am | 31/07/11

      @Martin Hopes - as I explained yesterday Martin I vote for the one who gives me the best deal - am not a Party member like many so can happily pick and choose. At present Abbott has my vote but with 2 years to go Martin so who knows what will happen fella.

    • nossy says:

      12:04pm | 31/07/11

      @Miranda see my post to Martin @11.49am Miranda.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      01:15pm | 31/07/11

      @ nossy – As I said earlier, I admire swinging voters, well done fella.

      @ Miranda - It never ceases to amaze me at how many people fail to understand how our Westminster system of parliament operates.

      Labor did not align themselves to anyone, it was the three independents and one Green who gave their support to Gillard, this was done so that we could have a working parliament / government….these ‘clowns’ (as you call them) could have quite easily supported Abbott (that is, if he had been able to negotiate with clowns, which he obviously wasn’t capable of doing), if they had, Abbott would now be our Prime Minister…if this had eventuated (Labor in opposition) then no doubt, you would be even more confused than you seem to be now, keeping in mind, you said you voted Labor, judging by your comment, I very much doubt you did.

    • Gregg says:

      04:27pm | 31/07/11

      @Nossy,
      So you reckon Aussies will put a lot on what a pommie politician says, one stupid enough to be hiring an ex media fella who might just have been involved in hacking.

      How about we consider some real facts.

    • Miranda says:

      04:30pm | 31/07/11

      @ Martin Hopes

      Understood you and the Westminster system very well. Wish the clowns had aligned themselves to Abbott, after all Abbott like Gillard promised everything and anything so Australia could have a Coalition government and he PM.

      Ask yourself what would have Abbott done if that was the case? Would he have given in to the clowns like what Gillard Labor is doing or forget about the deal he made with the clowns to become PM and govern without compromising Liberal values and doing what is best for the nation and its people. I somehow think Abbott would have ditched the demands of the clowns, stuck to Liberal values and governed for the nation and its people. Then for sure the clowns wouldn’t be happy, leave Abbott for Gillard, but before they could do that Abbott would done what the people are screaming out for and that is Elections. Problem solved for everyone.

      Gillard and the clowns are scared because if elections were held tomorrow they would not exist.

      nossy - that is where we differ. I am taking into consideration what will have to Mike Rann SA, he is about to get the chop, don’t think it is fair, Rann was the elected Premier so shouldn’t be pushed out of office. The government is not a one man band like Labor factions seem to think, they are a party consisting of members of parliament. I have seen enough done by Labor parties federally and state and now would like to give the Coalition a chance. ‘The privilege of a swinging voter’

    • seduxen says:

      09:25am | 31/07/11

      In the 70’s, some wrote: the biggest tragedy is if just standing and doing nothing to prevent this threat… The journo was talking about the threat of coming ice age!!! We did not do anything against is, and it puffed out like the Y2K bug… And we, humanity, continuously reducing our footprint: we went from straw to wood, from wood to coal, from coal to oil, from oil to nuclear. Emitting less and less CO2 and increased the energy flux density. Without this, Mankind could not achieve the technological improvement since the beginning of the technological revolution. There was a short period only, called the Medieval Warming Period, that Al Gore and his lackeys would love to bury. From the warming, the life became so much easier for this period, the people had time to spend it on intellectual activities, to creativity. This is the age of cathedral builders, the beginning of the Renaissance… The CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research) is about to release their study, that will totally debase the Global Warmistas (http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/38627). But the most telling part is that:”...The CERN experiment is supposed to be the big test of the Svensmark theory. It’s a tipoff, then, that CERN’s boss, Rolf-Dieter Heuer, has just told the German magazine Die Welt that he has forbidden his researchers to “interpret” the forthcoming test results…” Just like, 6.000 scientist signed the letter supporting the man made global warming crud, but the corporate media is silent about the 32.000 scientist those saying there is no such thing! Gillard admits, the $23/tonne price is the introductory price only. It will be traded on open market! Can you imagine to compete against Goldman/Sachs, or MerrilLynch??? To let Goldman/Sachs to decide if you can have dinner tomorrow night or not, because you can not pay your diner’s carbon foot print??? Can you imagine as the unelected, international speculators can make or break your country??? Whatever “democracy” means today, you can forget it completely tomorrow. Did you know? The carbon trading scheme was worked out by Ken Lay, the same crook that was in the center of the ENRON scandal in California, that screwed, and robbed Californians by the electricity prices?  Even the NYTimes is skeptical about Gillard: We’ll see if her government can survive them… (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304203304576447910279095574.html?KEYWORDS=The+Last+Carbon+Taxer)  Vaclav Claus, the President of the Czech Republic told to reporters: the carbon tax is against democracy. Anyone can look at the working mechanism of it and can join this opinion. The biggest question is remains: where did the green movement got their flood-like increased financial funding???  Where are the greens when the “civilized” technologically “most advanced” (and the most polluting/polluted) nations starting up more and more wars??? When the US Army itself uses 350.000 barrel of crude/day - this is not containing the Marines, Navy usage! We are completely silenced about ENVIRONMENT by jamming down in our throat the climate change crud! Why? Our government let the introduction of “fracking” which is high pressure injection of freshwater into the layers of rock. One of the most destructive method: it uses ON THE DRIEST ISLAND OF THE PLANET! freshwater and this contaminated water further contaminates the ground water tables! Are we this suicidal??? And on and on… I am afraid, when the Great Bastille Day of Australia arrives the banksters will ave lots of companies by greens and climate scientists! My last question is: if these scientists are so good to predict 1.5Celsius increase in 100 years time, and used supercomputers to model it, why they could not predict the December/January rains and potential flooding??? ( was paraphrasing from Michael Crichton, and Michael Riviero’s speeches.)

    • dobbo says:

      11:26am | 31/07/11

      Yes nossy…good to see even the Australian has picked up on this one http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/british-pm-david-cameron-praises-julia-gillards-carbon-price-plan/story-fn3dxity-1226105221407... bit hard to overlook or bury I guess.

      Will be interesting to see out of which burrow the (R)Abbott pops up next in his Energiser Bunny campaign to undermine the PM and insist we’ve got to go all Italian and have election before the first year is out or we’re all doomed,

      No doubt he’s getting more desperate as he realises such a strategy can only run out of puff if Gillard’s term stretches to completion and more voices of reason such as British PM Cameron’s are added to the carbon debate.

    • jf says:

      11:41am | 31/07/11

      dobbo says:11:26am | 31/07/11

      “bit hard to overlook or bury I guess.”

      Come on dobbo give it a rest. Not even Phillip Adams claims that News Ltd is biased against the ALP.

      “Will be interesting to see out of which burrow the (R)Abbott pops up next in his Energiser Bunny campaign to undermine the PM and insist we’ve got to go all Italian and have election before the first year is out or we’re all doomed,”

      Nothing like a bit of casual bigotry to emphasise your point hey dobbo. I thought that your mob were the mob of tolerance and acceptance. Still, I guess in the ALP all wogs are just a bit crazy hey?

      “voices of reason such as British PM Cameron’s”

      A “bold and ambitious” tax reform is hardly an endorsement particularly when it is a one out effort.  I wonder what his thoughts would be if he knew the details, knew that by the government’s own admission that it will neither discourage consumption or use of fossil fuels.

    • Martin says:

      12:24pm | 31/07/11

      Dobbo, genius Labor supporter, the only desperates are the Labor party at 27-29% primary vote. Hard to imagine anyone being more desperate than a Labor MP at the moment. BTW Dobbo, how desperate are you when you decide the best way to sell your carbon tax is to dissappear off the radar like Gillard did last week? Everyone’s cacking themselves over that one “I’ll be wearing out the shoe leather” yeah until a couple of fiesty old ducks took to her in some shopping centres and a poll comes out showing her primary vote @27%! LMAO, then it became “run away, run away”

    • Robert s McCormick says:

      03:20pm | 31/07/11

      In light of what has just been announced in SA Julia had better don her Bullet/Dagger-proof jacket immediately & were it 24/7/365/366!
      The ALP, which has never been slow to condemn & point the finger at Federal & State Oppositions, note that: Oppositions, for changing their leaders, has twice now politically assassinated two of their own. One Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd & now one State Premier, Mike Rann whilst they were in office! Gillard held the dagger which was thrust into the political back of Kevin Rudd a thousand thousand times. In her & Paul Howes defence they did at least do it when Kev was in the country.
      Now the SA ALP has politically assassinated Mr Good News Only the one & only Media Mike, Mike Rann. Unlike at the Federal level they did it when he was on his way out of the country! Gutless, cowards to a man/woman. SA is well rid of him. Ever since the ALP’s trickery & deceit at the run-up to the last State Election, their deliberately false & misleading How to Vote Cards - they published How to Vote cards which were deliberately dishonest for they made out that a party which would not have a bar of the ALP were giving the ALP their preferences, they had party hacke posing as supporters of another Party. If we had had an ICAC this would have been sorted, However Rann, the ALP & the police were totally opposed to us having one & we can only surmise why!
      Rann is now gone. He will never ecover. His own Party has unceremoniously dumped him. To highlight their perfidy it is barely weeks since a number of ALP MPs told us that Rann, given in their eyes his great contribution to the ALP - bugger the State it’s the ALP which is important - would go at a time of his own choosing & thereby enjoy all the plaudits & honours due to this great ALP figure.
      That won’t happen now. They have disgraced him. They have deliberately undermined what little authority he still had. Good.
      So, Julia, be very very careful! A few more bad Polls & your ALP colleagues won’t simply stab you in the back they will cut you down, cut you up & hang you out to dry. Despite your mangling of the English language I think you are probably a very nice person outside of politicis!

    • nossy says:

      03:52pm | 31/07/11

      @Robert s McCormick   - have to agree with you Robert - bloody shameful the way these Union heavies go on using their muscle to change the leaders - the Rudd example was the worst I have ever seen and now as if they have learnt nothing its Ranns turn! Dont these nutters understand we the voters elected these leaders not them? Enough is enough Labor Party - get your act together and show some respect to the voters or incur our wrath at the voting booths!

    • RyaN says:

      10:25pm | 31/07/11

      Even Whitlam didn’t lie to his country “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”!
      The hilarity of comparing Abbott to the US conservatives is just as ironic as pathetic. Fact is, its Gillard that is doing the wrecking of the country here (although the same can be said about Obama). Now if it weren’t for those pesky conservatives we would all be living in under a Chinese communist regime by now!

    • dobbo says:

      06:23am | 01/08/11

      @jf & like- minded folk re News Ltd are in some ways right…this crowd will throw their weight behind which ever side of politics advances their “big-end-of town” agenda (think NBN,carbon tax, PayTV etc)

      This is the very solid reason why big business, big media and the other players at the big end of the town find Tony Abbott so appealing as a Prime Minister. Basically our marathon man weather vane has no mind of his own on anything… except that he wants to be Prime Minister at whatever the cost.

      In other words the perfect puppet.

      Hence their antipathy to Gillard and Turnbull. Both know clearly their own minds, are very concerned about implementing their own agendas and - almost unheard of for modern politicians - actually have some sort of functioning moral compass.

      One other thing. Wouldn’t it be great if the letters NEWS LTD could be tattooed on Abbott’s forehead once he falls off his perch? This would serve as a permanent reminder of the sort of nincompoop the powerful in their quest for domination wanted to inflict on the Australian people.

    • Thommo says:

      12:34pm | 01/08/11

      Hilarious - nice satire Dobbo. pity there aren’t more with your sense of humour out there. I mean, ” actually have some sort of functioning moral compass.” - That is comedy gold mate. Kudos. You should be on Hamish and Andy.

    • Annabell says:

      12:11pm | 01/08/11

      persephone should go back to Hades were she belongs.

    • hermes says:

      12:15pm | 01/08/11

      Gillard is laying low because of an opinion piece last week, in, I think, the Australian, that said that would be her best strategy (aka shut up). She seems to read certain commentary, and lo…the following week, takes it up, in her latest guise as the new new new old new rehashed new Julia. Can’t we get rid of her by commentators writing ridiculous suggestions that only an idiot would copy; such as, introduce a new tax, designed to rip off everyone, raise the cost of living and do nothing for the environment.

    • LON says:

      10:25pm | 01/08/11

      Julia Gillard has two more years to impress her will apon the people. Even though her government contnues to strain indulgence with its scatter gun policy diversions it is a test of will, not just for the Labor government but also for that patient silent majority who will just shrug and tolerate the mediocrity, carbon tax and all, waiting for something positive to happen amidst that increasing lack of democracy being promoted as policy in the natonal interest.

 

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