Religious education is not mindless indoctrination

Tedd says:

07:30am | 27/05/11

Chani,
Religion is a sociological phenomenon, yet the debate about its role in school ought to be about the type of religious education - General (GRE), “Special” (SRE), or the subversive type that seems likely with the chaplaincy program and its tools such as breakfasts, etc.

It seems the Catholic system does teach comparative religion well, but that is from a base of its pupils mostly firmly entrenched in Catholicism. 

The war is fundie Protestants evangelising in public schools.

mark says:

08:25am | 27/05/11

shane, your arguments nonsense. Consider the many people of various faiths who equally pay tax. Why should we all be paying for secular humanism to be indoctrinated into our kids in the public system?
And of course your assumption that religion is useless whereas maths or science are more important is a flawed one. I did both maths and science, yet either discipline offers alot in my life…should we therefore scrap them also? This is the circular nonsense of this type of approach.

Leah says:

09:23am | 27/05/11

The taxpayer is not paying for it at all. Religious Education teachers are volunteers. Your argument is completely null and void. The only schools I am aware of that teach religion as a set subject by the classroom teacher are private schools.

Horse says:

09:40am | 27/05/11

The tax system and thus tax-payers, pay at least through the tax breaks the religious organisation get to peddle their programs. $18billion+ pa.

There is no indoctrination in humanism, mark.

Maths has a methodology and a language around logics, as does science.  They help differentiate nonsense about ‘circular nonsense’ form circular argument from geometry.

Alex Clapp says:

09:49am | 27/05/11

Shane, the taxpayer does not pay for the volunteers to go into schools and teach their re program.  It is only when teachers provide GRE that the taxpayer pays.

Rim H says:

09:54am | 27/05/11

Leah… if the tax payer is not funding it, then where did the ADDITONAL $227 million allocated in this year’s budget go exactly? Into the coffers of the church..? Wherever it went it’s a scandalous waste when other meaningful programs like mental health as an example (no negative connection with religions there of course…) need so much more resourcing.

komet says:

09:57am | 27/05/11

@Leah

We aren’t paying for it? You do realise 20million+ was set aside in the recent federal budget for the chaplains in schools program?

fml says:

10:00am | 27/05/11

Mark,

“Why should we all be paying for secular humanism to be indoctrinated into our kids in the public system?”

They are not being taught secular humanism, they are simply not being taught anything to do with religion, not having any religious classes doesnt automatically mean your kid is going to turn into a god hating atheist.

mark says:

10:01am | 27/05/11

horse, i’d like to believe you but unfortunately i can’t. For example, even humanists admit…

“Free Inquiry magazine, edited by Paul Kurtz, has now admitted that the 1933 Humanist Manifesto was written ‘for the explicit purpose of proclaiming humanism as a new religion.’ (February/March 2007, p. 65)”

There is a lot of indoctrination in humanism. It’s like any worldview.

trixie melodian says:

10:02am | 27/05/11

@Leah - religious instruction is undertaken on school property (taxpayer funded)  at the expense of teacher-led classes (taxpayer funded)  volunteers are covered by th school’s public liability insurance (taxpayer funded) and a significant number of taxpayers’ children are actively excluded from these classes.

And don’t forget that chaplains have been funded to the tune of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to bolster the teachings done by SRI/SRE teachers.

Julie says:

10:23am | 27/05/11

It amazes me how quickly some people attack religions.  Schools, hospitals, universities and more were started by religions. It was religious people who fought for the rights of the poor and still do.  It was religious people who fought for the poor to be educated and provided for and for children to be treated with dignity.

If all religions were banned tomorrow do you really think the government will take over all of thier charitable works?  This is why they are not taxed as they greatly ease the burden on the government which in turn saves all taxpayers money.

Most of the money churches receive come out of parishioners wallets. They choose to donate to the church to help others rather than go to the pub etc.

From what I’ve seen there has been a huge increase in violence and moral decay in our community since the state has pushed the ‘religion’ of evolution.  Do you think completely removing religious ideals will mean the humanists of this world will put thier hand in thier pockets to help the needy?  Will they volunteer and get thier hands dirty?

Be careful what you wish for.  Without a moral compass there is no right or wrong.  We already see children stabbing and raping each other in the news.  Humanists are all about self and pleasure. They do not teach care for fellow mankind and it is sadly showing in society.

Horse says:

10:39am | 27/05/11

Yes, mark, humanism is one of many worldviews that individuals may have. 

Did you know there are Christian humanists? Hindu humanists? Buddhist humanists?

Religion, by definition, involves the supernatural. Humanism doesn’t.
Someone’s claim it doesn’t, doesn’t change the def’n.

(correction from above) The methodology and a language around the logics,of maths & science ...  “helps differentiate nonsense about ‘circular nonsense’ *from* circular argument *and* from geometry.

Jack Thomas says:

10:40am | 27/05/11

All these arguments are probably null anyway when you question how many of these people arguing against it have kids?

Also, the whining and outright attacks on Christianity from the smug self-appointed intellectual elite fade away when the awful Christian groups like the Salvo’s step in and help the people you don’t (and live up to the Christian message).

The census says something like over 60% of Australians identify as being Christian, so unfortunately you whiners need to understand that the majority rules.

The reality of this type of thing (and speaking from experience going to a private Christian school) is that often the ‘instructor’ is more open minded and respectful to all religions than these people arguing about it.

The indoctrination of Global Warming theory is far more prevalent in schools, an unproven theory is pushed down our kid’s throats more than any religion could. I am frankly sick of my kids coming home and hating me for “ruining the world with global warming” as my daughter once said. When I raised the subject with the teacher, she shrugged her shoulders and said “well, she’s kinda right…”

fml says:

10:51am | 27/05/11

Julie,

It amazes me that people like you cannot see that the absence of religion is not the cause for societies ills.

“Do you think completely removing religious ideals will mean the humanists of this world will put thier hand in thier pockets to help the needy?  Will they volunteer and get thier hands dirty?”

Yes, Doctors with out borders, UNICEF, OXFAM to name but a few, sometimes the light which leads you also blinds you.

fall for anything says:

11:18am | 27/05/11

Horse says “humanism doesn’t”. Yes, that’s because secular humanism by definition is putting yourself forward as ‘God’. What Aussie SHs forget is that their teaching of: enjoy your life, you make the decision that works best for you, have fun, no worries, doesn’t really sell to most of the world’s population. Try selling that message to the 1 billion children living below the poverty line. You may find they tell you to go F yourself.

Horse says:

11:31am | 27/05/11

fall for anything,
Humanism does Not put its individual proponents first - it puts communities first, particularly disadvantaged ones & their members.

Just like Christian Humanists do.

WallyW says:

11:46am | 27/05/11

FML,
what you fail to realise is that Christians tend to give to churches in a sacrificial regular way. For example in our church 400 people give around $10000 every week and the organisation is able to do vast quantities of formal and informal social ministry. Happy to be corrected, but I suspect you wouldn’t have that depth of commitment on a broad scale to organisations like Oxfam etc (I am not arguing that they don’t do good work!). Trust me there would be a hole and the secular charities can not do the work at a micro level (with little or no government funding) that churches do!

fml says:

01:56pm | 27/05/11

Wally,

“Happy to be corrected, but I suspect you wouldn’t have that depth of commitment on a broad scale” ooooooooh passive aggressive self righteousness!

I work hard, barely have enough money to survive but i still incur your false piety!

cheers

Robbo says:

02:10pm | 27/05/11

@ Julie - couple of things.

“If all religions were banned tomorrow do you really think the government will take over all of thier charitable works?  This is why they are not taxed as they greatly ease the burden on the government which in turn saves all taxpayers money.”

- Please explain why the Vatican & Catholic church (who are one of, if not THE most wealthy organisations in the world) doesnt fork out more of their money towards starvation, poverty etc around the world??? Bit hypocritical really! They could significantly reduce (amongst other things) stavation worldwide and improve the lives of countless millions of people - why don’t they?

“From what I’ve seen there has been a huge increase in violence and moral decay in our community since the state has pushed the ‘religion’ of evolution. “

- Evolution is not a religion. It is a scientifical THEORY. A theory the result of subjective testing on what evidence is at hand.. hard evidence that is, not FAITH! One of the great things about science is that it is not only willing to, but relies upon being able to admit when it is wrong based on evidence!

“Without a moral compass there is no right or wrong.”

- Are you suggesting that religion is the ONLY reason we have morals?
Please explain how you came to this conclusion..?

WallyW says:

04:00pm | 27/05/11

FML,
First, I owe you an apology. I didn’t mean in my last post to say (or imply) that you personally didn’t have commitment to secular charities. I am also sorry that you felt self-righteous judgement from me. That was not my intention. I guess, I just wonder what you think Christians should do? We are accused of being subsidised by the “secular taxpayer” and just trying to brainwash people, but then when we try and point out some of the good things that we do to build a healthier community (at our own expense) we get criticised for being self-righteous. I am genuinely interested to know what you think we should do!

MostImportantMeal says:

04:20pm | 27/05/11

Good point, Tedd! How dare these filthy Christians come into schools and offer kids breakfast! Honestly, where will it end? A BBQ lunch once a term? Cooking classes! What a terrible world we live in, a world where children are lured into religion by the smell of bacon and eggs! How could any Australian child say no to Kelloggs Christianity?!?

Seano says:

07:37pm | 27/05/11

/@Leah: - “The taxpayer is not paying for it at all. Religious Education teachers are volunteers”

Yes but the taxpayer is paying for the classroom teacher to sit in and supervise because:

a) The RE teachers are invariably not covered for child protection.

b) They are not trained teachers so many find it difficult to control the classes (not something that usually happens when the topic is interesting btw).

Aaron says:

01:34am | 28/05/11

Of course you think it’s all about the money. While we’re at it, why don’t we ban english from schools, I don’t see any use for the literature side of things in my career so why should your precious tax dollars go to educating me in the works of Roald Dahl. Maybe we should also teach students how to read because you obviously didn’t read this article. It’s not talking about teaching religion in schools, it’s talking about teaching students to understand the different religions. If you hate the church so much (Which is an assumption based on your response) then you should support the kids being educated to prevent them from being brain washed.

acotrel says:

07:56am | 28/05/11

@Julie
’ Without a moral compass there is no right or wrong.’

Ever heard of ETHICS and VALUES?

jim says:

09:34pm | 29/05/11

And who pays for Atheists like Richard Dawkins?

British Taxpayers ... sigh.

rita says:

09:24pm | 02/06/11

Just wondering what else should be dropped from school curriculum?
Maths is non-existent, so is physics and biology,  history and geography not to mention chemistry and the English language.
Australian education system is nothing short of child abuse in the name of ‘stress free education’. There is no such a thing!! Learning is quite a challenge and mind teaser.. It develops brain cells.
Well, we can scratch religion from the school subjects just as well.
It would make no difference to the present standards of education in the country.
My very recent experience which made me absolutely furious at all the primary school teachers in the whole of Australia:
Students of engineering department at an Australian university do not know the tables because… ‘they use a calculator’.
It was 5 times 5 (sic) question to be answered!! And I am not joking.
Students became a commodity in Australian school system; tutors who failed the students have to resign, and many do.
Primary school teachers are not qualified to prepare students for further studies. Teachers are not qualified to handle bright or otherwise students; they have no idea about child psychological development, so they ‘invent’ new diseases: attention begger and other syndroms so the onus is on poor child who cannot cope with idiocy and lack of methods in teaching programs.. One size fits all or you’re out. 
The whole system stinks to high heaven and now, we are discussing religion at school??
That would be the least of my worries.
But giving up memory retention exercises in our school system generates zombies of our society who cannot remember their names, let alone ... tables.
Instead of real subjects at school, some totally unqualified persons teach… sex education !!!!!
Religion as well as remaining sbjects (what are they?) are being taught by totally unqualified school staff members.
This discussion should rather be about education of teachers whether religious or not.
The recent statement, and I think the decision, by Julia Gillard to encourage country students to enter university made my blood boil.
This is the very person who has failed primary school education standards in country areas.
And now, she is creating another blunder: city dwellers who did not perform very well are shifting to country campuses where they are treated like sacred cows. No one can fail them because the university would lose funding. Country students do not benefit either from the lowest academic standards, ever.
Tutors get frustrated and look for jobs somehere else; but for Julia Gillard there is no worries; she introduced a distant learning courses for ... teachers..
It is hard to believe…

L. says:

07:50am | 27/05/11

” Kids should be taught to distinguish, and recognise the consequences of their actions, and learn to take responsibility for them! “

Ummm…why in schools?

That sounds like a job for mum and dad.

Tedd says:

08:17am | 27/05/11

L,
That is a job or role for the whole village/community (now a world-wide one with the internet & social media).  Some parents aren’t capable of that, or overplay their hand.

SBB says:

09:42am | 27/05/11

@acrotel Chani’s argument was about the benefit of children being educated about all things in life, including religion. Just becasue you don’t believe it doesn’t mean ALL children should be protected from it-  that is also a horrible form of indoctrination. Also, I am impressed by your likening of Nazi’s and Christians. Great intellectual argument.

L. says:

11:41am | 27/05/11

” Some parents aren’t capable of that, or overplay their hand. “

Overplay their hand..?? And who the hell is the “state” or the scripture teacher to make that judgement?

acotrel says:

07:25am | 27/05/11

@Lei The trouble with teaching religous history lies in the question - whose version do you believe?  The religous would only teach the version which fits their own story, in exactly the same way Australian history is taught today in our education system.  Even John Howard wanted to tailor it to suit his own agenda!

Ting Tong says:

08:43am | 27/05/11

Let me guess Lei - you’re happy to have “your taxpayer dollars” subsidise the fallacy that is alternative medicine but you draw the line at religion.

I’d love to draw you up a list of what else your precious taxpayer dollars goes towards.

Tom says:

09:49am | 27/05/11

@acetrol, not the “H” word. And you were doing so well.

@Lei, parents of private school children pay taxes. No-one subsidises them. Why do you believe it is fair to discriminate against them based on your leftist religion of envy?

@Ting Tong, Taxpayers subsidise the disgusting greedy, hypocritical religion of climate change.

Rose says:

10:18am | 27/05/11

Maybe if people got a better understanding about why these rituals take place there would be less ignorance and hate in the world. By dismissing them and refusing to see it from the point of view of the practicing person, you become as bad as the religious zealot who refuses to look at the non-believers point of view.
The Catholic schools my kids go to teach a lot about other religions, and even atheism, they teach it with respect and they teach it in its historical context. Concepts of different religions taught in public schools could do a lot to dispel ignorance and reduce conflict.
I do however agree that scripture has no place in public schools, but there is definitely a place for public school students to get a grounding of some of the major belief systems present in Australia.

WallyW says:

01:05pm | 27/05/11

Dear TChong
But you see “the public” includes people of religious faith. I don’t agree with “The public” paying for SBS’s porno rubbish on Friday nights but I nevertheless contribute through my taxes. I don’t agree with people abusing alcohol but nevertheless I get to pay for the consequences of their actions through rehabilitation services and the health system. I don’t agree with the totalitarian indoctrination of rationalistic humanism in the school system but I get to pay for it! You get the point…“The public” includes a diverse range of people and so love it or hate it you get to pay for things that you don’t agree with…That’s the glory, that’s the story of representative democracy!

Tired of Nonsense says:

01:47pm | 27/05/11

It is rather confronting when you see large numbers of the population in South East Asia living at the subsistence level. Yet, tonnes of food are being left at the bottom of statues or provided for monks, who have two mouthfuls and leave. The arguement that modern society is decaying, is unfounded, malicious and ignorant. The most horrific era in Western history coincided with the church having absolute power, something that resembles what is happening in many middle eastern countries. Religion poisons everything

Brad says:

08:22pm | 27/05/11

@WallyW: “nevertheless I contribute through my taxes”. As if you have a choice mate.

L. says:

08:24am | 27/05/11

“Of course it is not mindless indoctrination.  It is deliberate and targeted.”

Excellent observation… Well done.

CJ Morgan says:

09:59am | 27/05/11

Agreed, iansand - very succinctly put.

There is no place in public schools for for indoctrinating children in any particular religious ideas.  If parents want to do that to their kids they should send them to religious schools, or send them to Sunday school, a madrassah, synagogue, ashram or whatever on weekends.

That is not to say that children shouldn’t be taught about religions as socio-historical phenomena, or about ethics and morals in the context of philosophy or civics.  But that is quite different to subversive proselytising under the guise of “Scripture” lessons.

Tom says:

12:34pm | 27/05/11

“indoctrinating children”? ... lol ... Great, you can now wag Sunday school and go along and worship your real god at Harvey Norman.

Missy says:

02:48pm | 27/05/11

@ iansand,

What is truth and what isn’t?

All parents indoctrinate their children with SOMETHING, some kind of ethic, some kind of philosophy.

All people commit ‘bad deeds’ and do bad things. Just as they do good things.

Will you judge an entire race and culture by a group of people who commit an atrocity just because they belonged to that race and culture?

Will you now say some races are crap, evil and ignorant for perpetuating non-religious ills fuelled by cultural beliefs of a handful of people, such as genital multilation (existed before the religions its associated with)?

Why then, religion?

Do we really need to have a boogeyman to feel good and smugly superior about ourselves?

In the past it was witches (again, the concept of persecuting witches existed BEFORE Christians were burning them, example, Papua New Guinea, they used to practise cannibalism on “witches” before Christianity came), then it became Jews, then X and X and now, what, Christians because they are easy targets and don’t enable the risk of having your house possibly blown up or shot in public (Google Dutch film maker)?

iansand says:

04:01pm | 27/05/11

Whoa Missy.  Down girl.  Down.

Send ‘em to Sunday School.  Just leave mine alone, unless I choose to have them indoctrinated.

Tom says:

11:37pm | 27/05/11

@iansand, Jesus would not want taxpayers paying for any of his teachings. He would however, love to see you come along to listen to his words, . If you have “better” gods or no gods in mind for your children, he would be very upset but that is your choice.

iansand says:

07:33am | 28/05/11

Why thank you Tom.  It is always humbling to be patronised by experts.  My daughter has attended denominational schools since the age of 10.

John of Brisbane says:

09:37pm | 28/05/11

Yes .. lets indoctrinate them with athiesm .. which is itself a religion and belif system. The most fallacious argument I have heard it don’t teach them anything and let them decide for themselves when they grow up. The problem is .. that when they grow up they have no choice, because noone has ever given them a choice. They have no basis or foundations on which to make the choice. I suspect those who argue against this have themselves never explored the alternative belief systems and would rather that children aren’t exposed to this. I also wonder how many of these people themselves actually have children. If they did, they have many choices in sending their children to public schools and have the choice to not have them participate in RE classes. Thereby instilling in them a sense that people who have religous beliefs are somewhat inferior and need the “prop” of religion in their lives.

iansand says:

10:19pm | 28/05/11

It is clear that there is one thing incompatible with a commitment to religion.  Rational argument.

Brad says:

04:26pm | 29/05/11

@ John of Brisbane,

“Yes .. lets indoctrinate them with athiesm .. which is itself a religion and belif system.”

Well, I take it you do not believe in the god apollo?? By your blind statement, that would then equally mean you hold a religion and belief system for the non belief in apollo… does that seem absurd to you? All you need to be an atheist, is to not believe in the tripe people are peddling about god or gods… thats it. NOTHING MORE.

“Thereby instilling in them a sense that people who have religous beliefs are somewhat inferior and need the “prop” of religion in their lives. ”

Well i was raised in a relaxed catholic environment, I was an alter boy for 7 years (no i wasnt played with) and yet I still grew up and felt exactly that way. Im comfortable with death with no afterlife, i dont buy the arguments from religious apologists nor do I swallow the internally inconsistent bible.

What I do feel strongly about is that children are incredibly impressionable, raising them for their entire childhood to believe something as fact when they really are not capable of judging for themselves is not fair on them. If you teach a child that if they jump off a clff, a mystical sky fairy will catch them, they will have no issue jumping off a cliff. They take what thier trusted authority figures say for granted and do not get the ability to judge what is bollocks from reality until at least early adulthood.

I bet reigious people would have great issue with raising children with good values and ethics (which no, definately do not require religion) and then letting them decide about religion when they are adults… Mostly because they would laugh at what you hold dear plainly because it is actually absurd.

Tubesteak says:

09:05am | 27/05/11

Yes. It is pointless to look at the Census as any sort of barometer of religious leanings. It’s like looking at online polls on news.com.au and smh.com.au to gauge the sentiment of the public.

How many people ticked the Catholic box yet use birth control? How many ticked the Anglican box yet don’t believe the earth was created a few thousand years ago? How many people identified with a religion yet only attend churches for weddings and funerals?

Saying that there are that many people who believe in religion based on the Census is pointless and idiotic. Moreso if you use it as a basis for the teaching of religion in public schools.

There are churches that teach religion. Leave it to them as a voluntary choice by the parents.

fml says:

10:04am | 27/05/11

Easter is of pagan origin and celebrates fertility, hence the rabbits. Christianity just took it and tried to make it their own. Im more than happy to remove all religious connotations from easter and go back to our pagan roots and celebrate coitus over the long weekend.

Lisa H. says:

12:19pm | 27/05/11

“narrow’? ‘self-serving’? you should listen to yourself, honestly.

People should be banned from claiming they are religious if they use birth control or celebrate Easter now??  Or if they are simply following family tradition?

What are you, a fascist?

Religion is an important aspect of our society and traditions, affecting us for good and ill, where better to learn about the concept that in the disinterested and intellectual environment of a school?

In any case the chaplain program is more about providing support to needy students in a ‘shrink-free’ type environment. Psychological counselling can be stigmatising and counter-productive. I support the concept of chaplaincy in schools.

Kika says:

12:39pm | 27/05/11

Anglicans don’t believe in the young earth theory! Lol.

Kika says:

02:56pm | 27/05/11

Lisa H - I completely agree. Shrinks can often make things worse by bringing up stuff that should have really been left alone. I had counselling once and I only found myself getting angrier and angrier at the people who had caused me pain and it made me stop talking to my mother for months.

Tubesteak says:

03:02pm | 27/05/11

Lisa H and Kika: If you don’t believe everything your church and it’s founding document, for example, the Bible, teaches then you should claim yourself to be religious. It’s like fairweather sports fans; they’re not real fans just people turning up for fun on the odd occasion.

For the author of this topic to claim that a large % of people are religious based on the census is clearly false. They are non-practicing or only paying lip-service to their organisation. This should not be used to extrapolate that most Australians support the tenets of their religion when, in fact, they don’t because their actions are quite the contrary.

Also, to believe that schools would teach religion in a “disinterested and intellectual” fashion is also false. That would never happen. Best to leave religion to the religious in their churches or those who want to seek it out by reading books written on the subject (Dawkins has a few good ones).

Mike says:

04:36pm | 27/05/11

@Kika: I would much prefer properly trained counsellors over Christian thugs who tell me that my mother is a woman born of Eve and theteful more sinful than man. Actual. Experience.

Lisa H. says:

01:25am | 28/05/11

Who are you to proclaim the label a person should wear on their spirituality, Tubesteak?
Are you a born again fundie?

If a person says they are ‘christian’, that’s good enough for me.
There’s no ‘tubesteak test of allegiance’ where I come from.
You go right ahead and judge, though… and I’ll tick whatever census box I like.

Tedd says:

08:26am | 27/05/11

Ironically, the Catholics seem to do comparative analysis, or at least education about all religions, well.

The NSW public system has General Religious Education in ‘Human Society and its Environment’ and they visit various places of worship.

Tedd says:

08:15am | 27/05/11

Hehehe,
Reminds one of the differences between sex education and sex instruction applying to religion in schools -

educate, but don’t instruct.

egg says:

08:33am | 27/05/11

phht, what a silly argument… who on earth needs to be taught THAT?

fml says:

10:06am | 27/05/11

Serious question,

What is the ACL’s stance on masturbation??

Kevin says:

11:17am | 27/05/11

@fml
“What is the ACL’s stance on masturbation??”

It’s okay as long as it doesn’t get out of hand.

fml says:

12:07pm | 27/05/11

@Kevin,

I can “handle” that.

DavidB says:

09:48am | 27/05/11

It wasn’t ‘comparative religion’ in my day. It was only about indoctrination to Jesus. Questioned about the existence of other religions, the point was just dismissed, despite the fact that if any one of the thousands of religions and religious variants is true, it means all the others are completely erroneous.

The reason, as noted above, that Australia seems to have way more religious people than evidence would indicate, is that people robotically write on the census form the religion that their parents told them they were, despite never having chosen to participate in any religion’s rituals. The only time most Australians step into a church is for funerals, often conducted by clergy who’d never actually met the deceased, weddings, often for people who’ve spent years living contrary to Christian teaching (in sin), and ritual baby dunkings, declaring a helpless baby to be a Christian despite the baby having had no choice in the matter. I’ve seen numerous examples of all of these in my visits to church, but have never entered a church for any other purpose.

I’m one of the few who marks the census form ‘no religion’. I urge others in the same situation to stand up and be counted in the next census.

Kika says:

12:53pm | 27/05/11

It sounds as though you got your RE classes back in the 50’s or 60’s… I think we’ve all moved on from that kind of stuff.

zee says:

03:36pm | 27/05/11

wrong

Amanda says:

04:46pm | 27/05/11

Kika - I agree with Zee…wrong.  I have only just left school two years ago and had an RE teacher that was a born again Christian, who I know in his ‘past life’ was a drug addicted, wife beating alcoholic.  I didn’t hold that against him, but naively though that would imbue him with a certain level of empathy for the challenges people face in life.  But oh no no, self righteous much, judgemental major to the point of even considering christian rock to be evil because they didn’t dress to his liking.  Don’t think this sort of crap is restricted to some bible thumping old lady.  Malice and poisonous ideas come in many forms.

acotrel says:

08:04am | 28/05/11

My son came home from school and told me that ‘if you pray for rain, and use the right words, it will rain!’  I just love the escape clause!

Daniel says:

08:57pm | 28/05/11

My RE teacher got us to do a meditation exercise, then whilst we were in a meditative state got us to imagine Jesus being whipped with the cat-o-nine-tails, his thorny crown being pushed into his head and his hands beings pierced by rusty nails. Psychological abuse much?

mark says:

09:22am | 27/05/11

im glad your not a teacher Kylie. I’ll leave aside the historical evidence for now. Who ever said ‘trinity’ was in the original manuscipts? It’s a theology or thought developed from logical consequence of the data. No one claims it is an original greek word. Tertullian was the first theologian to express the terminology in the second century when he wrestled with the material he saw in the Bible. The disputed letters are only dismissed by extreme liberals. A proper scholarly consensus of many opinions doesn’t take this view. And anyway, by taking this line you must therefore accept the undisputed letters as genuine, in which case you need to deal with the information in them. You can dismiss them, but you need a firm basis to do so, not just “it’s a fairy tale”.

So your ammunition is just typical liberal polemics, that have been answered over and over again.

SBB says:

09:49am | 27/05/11

If you do a quick bit of research into the works of people like Ravi Zacharias, C.S. Lewis etc you may find many Christians believe because of the evidence, not through ignorant faith. Don’t do too much research, however, as your own assumptions may come crashing down.

Danno says:

12:38pm | 27/05/11

Do you believe in the THEORY of evolution? This was taught at school and most likely still is, a form of brainwashing to believe that we came about out of nothing but single celled bacteria as opposed to being created. I have a problem with people who bellttle and criticise Christianity when they know nothing about Christianity and probably have not even read the Bible. Seems like they were brainwashed to think that there is no god when they were young and haven’t made up their own minds through research or even attending a Church.

Robbo says:

02:22pm | 27/05/11

@ Danno

“I have a problem with people who bellttle and criticise Christianity when they know nothing about Christianity and probably have not even read the Bible.”

“Do you believe in the THEORY of evolution? This was taught at school and most likely still is, a form of brainwashing to believe that we came about out of nothing but single celled bacteria as opposed to being created”

hahaha and you call the THEORY of evolution a form of brainwashing!!!

Pot, meet Kettle!

Eliatan says:

02:24pm | 27/05/11

Evidently too much time was spent teaching some people scripture that they missed out of a proper scientific education. Bother to look up the scientific definition of theory, mate, before you try to argue about something you evidently don’t understand. I went to church every Sunday, did my fair share of bible education and school scripture classes and I have read my bible from cover to cover more than once. However, the difference between the allegorical content of these valuable myths from our cultural past, and the rigour of scientific research are not comparable, and only those of little education attempt to compare the ‘blind faith’ in religion to an understanding of current scientific enquiry and most accepted theories of science as it stands today. The main difference being that should a better proof for our existence than evolution come along, those with a rational world view based on evidence will change their views. Nothing about religion is rational, or provable. Nothing about religion belongs in the education system. Mass delusion caused by fear of the unknown and the unpleasant truth of your insignificance in our amazing universe is no excuse for ignorance.
I choose freedom from religion. Please keep your nonsense away from my children who are yet to develop critical skills of analysis. By all means, attempt to convert my children once they are over 18, but if they don’t laugh at you outright, take it that I have raised them with manners, as well as an intellect.

James1 says:

04:01pm | 27/05/11

Danno,

I have a problem with people who bellttle and criticise evolution and natural selection when they know nothing about it and probably have not even read On the Origin of Species.  Natural selection and evolution exist.  They are not some unproven theory, as you seem to think.  There is evidence that they are real.

Just because you haven’t made the slightest effort to understand it, does not mean the fault is with evolution.  It exists whether you believe in it or not.

Horse says:

09:35am | 27/05/11

do they have a moral God?

Do you understand “the problem of evil”? The Euthyphro dilemma?

Humanism is not a religion as religion involves unsubstantiated supernatural thingies.

Shane From Melbourne says:

09:36am | 27/05/11

Yeah, I’m happy to indoctrinate them with Literacy, Mathematics, Science, Critical Analysis and Problem Solving because it’s “my religion”.....

TheRealDave says:

09:51am | 27/05/11

No, they have a God who demands obedience and tells you that you are a filthy little sinner that needs to beg for forgiveness for the rest of your life OR you don’t get invited to the party at the end ofthe rainbow.

Oh and, love one another…..but not your neighbours donkey or something…

mark says:

10:04am | 27/05/11

well horse, you’ll have a a problem with the US Supreme Court who declared secular humanism as a religion.

fml says:

10:23am | 27/05/11

99% of air time??

Cods Wallop. Not teaching religion is not default for secular humanism. Its simply the absence of teaching.

mark says:

10:33am | 27/05/11

just another one for all the indoctrinated deniers of Humanism that humanism is an indoctrinating religion.

Back in 1983 John Dunphy wrote an article for The Humanist, entitled “A New Religion for a New Age.”

“…the battle for mankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity. . . . These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing the classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level – preschool, day care center or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new – the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism.”

Woops…but of a slip up there. So much for seperation of Church and State hey

btw horse, i’m well aware of the problme of evil and the difficulties of anybody trying to explain it, Christian included. But here is hardly the place to discuss an enormous topic properly

Horse says:

10:43am | 27/05/11

“the US Supreme Court who declared secular humanism as a religion.”

Cool. Then the Vic Govt will allow it in SRI?

Sickemrex says:

12:20pm | 27/05/11

Hmmm, maths, science, music, art, phys ed and “heaven” forbid, some spelling and grammar, I sure am happy for my child to be “indoctrinated” with those.  But why does my child need to be told that humans are all born with sin and that her great, great (x3000 years) grandma was created whole and intact out of her great, great etc grandad’s rib?

Why are the religious so keen on having other people’s children listen to their beliefs?  Are they afraid of generations of children growing up with a set of ethics and principles that they didn’t need the fear of god to have developed?  Please don’t bring out that tired old chestnut about the decline of civilisation coinciding with the lessening of belief, unfortunately rape and murder have been around since the first homo species climbed out of the tree.  The history books I’ve read don’t paint any past civilisation as a beacon of peace and light, not matter what religion.

Suzanne says:

12:44pm | 27/05/11

Lol…a moral god?

Yeah right:
http://www.thethinkingatheirst.com/page/bible-atrocities

Suzanne says:

01:01pm | 27/05/11

“unfortunately rape and murder have been around since the first homo species climbed out of the tree.”

Not only that, they are endorsed by the christian god. It’s there in black and white.
Genesis - Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob so they would leave his guests, two angels alone.

Exodus - You can beat your slave and as long as the slave doesn’t die the beating isn’t punishible.

Numbers - a man who gathered firewood on the sabbath is stoned to death.

I could go on but it depresses me

James1 says:

04:07pm | 27/05/11

A moral god?  Surely you don’t mean the same god who taught his followers about selling their daughters to slavery…

mark says:

09:28am | 27/05/11

sorry mate, i didn’t grow up in a chirstian home.

Also, look at the Americans. The US Supreme Court declared secular humanism to be a religion.

A mature thinker realises that kids believe what they are taught. If the air they breathe is humanism, they will accept that without thinking much about…it’s called indoctrination. We indoctrinate by what we taught, AND by what we don’t teach, that’s the reality. I assume you just don’t like to be called religious, but that is in fact what you are…we all are.

mark says:

09:43am | 27/05/11

btw, have a look here

http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2007/05/22/secular-religion/

even your own forebears recognised that humanism was a religion. It’s just a religion without a ‘supernatural’ deity.

emel says:

10:12am | 27/05/11

Humanism - A system of thought that is based on the values, characteristics, and behaviour that are believed to be best in human beings, rather than on any supernatural authority.
Religion - People’s beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of God, a god, or gods, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.
See the difference?
You cannot argue that a lack of belief in some form of deity is somehow a religion just because it suits you.
Your earlier criticisim of ‘The Punch’ was also poorly thought out. It is the lack of intellectual debate put forth by people who do not value evidence which lowers the standard of this site.

emel says:

10:28am | 27/05/11

Thanks for the link Mark.
I have just wasted twenty minutes of my day reading the thoughts of another human who i agree with on some subjects and disagree with on others - really insightful.
My forebears by the way, were catholic.
My thoughts however are my own. I do not teach my children about L. Ron Hubbard because:
a) it would be a waste of time and,
b) I do not fear that Scientology will become indoctrinated into my children by it’s very absence from our lives.
Good luck with your further assumptions.

mark says:

09:32am | 27/05/11

jack, perhaps you should be locked away for ‘hate crime’?

fml says:

10:26am | 27/05/11

They should make old school churches and turn them into night clubs, that be fun, Id definitely go to church then! praise be alcohol!

amen!

Rose says:

10:28am | 27/05/11

Have you ever considered counselling, you obviously have some long-standing hate and anger issues?

Jack Richards says:

02:00pm | 27/05/11

@ Mark and Rose

Maybe you should read the bible and koran sometime and then consider who it is who has the “long standing hate and anger issues” and who should be “locked away for hate crimes”.

Despite all my many faults, I have never had the need to hi-jack a plane and fly it into a building; or blow up a school bus; or turn myself into a human bomb and detonate myself on a commuter train; I’ve never burned a single witch; never left a single bomb in a protestant pub; never done any “ethnic cleansing”; never drawn my sword to defend the faith; never written anything urging people to murder, genocide, rape and slavery. But you’ll find all these things in the “holy books” and loonies, like you two, piously advocating that these things be done - if not directly, then by tacit consent.

If you think I’ve got some mental issues, have a good long look at yourselves. It’s not me who has “faith” that there is an old man in the sky listening in to my thoughts; or that burning bushes can speak; or that horses can fly up to heaven; or that there are 72 virgins waiting for me in a garden with a river of milk and a river of honey if I kill myself and as many infidel as possible in the doing of it; or that praying to a lump of plaster or a piece of old cloth can cure cancer.

Both of you should learn to keep your legs closed because your breath really stinks.

Peter Hinton says:

09:33am | 27/05/11

OH YOUR GOD!  I don’t really want to do any work today so I’m prepared to amuse you for a minute or two. Which God “is” ethics and morals? Zeus? Apollo? Camaxtli? Farbauti? Shiva? Vulcan? Xochiquetzal? Your statement underlines the narrow-mindedness, exclusivity and discrimination that is inseparable from the major religions in the world today. I am the grandson of an Anglican minister. I am also a 100% certified, free-range, organic, chemical-free Atheist. I donate more than 3% of my annual income to charity. I volunteer my time to charities on a regular basis. I cry when i see people in pain. I’m a loving, caring husband and father. How dare you say suggest that my disconnection from YOUR God somehow makes me immoral. How dare you!

Boiling_Gnome says:

09:58am | 27/05/11

So Take Two, do you really believe that there were no ethics or morals before the christian church? Or that they invented Morals from the vacuum of human ignorance?
Funny, I thought that most of the church’s early teaching were based on ancient Greek philosophy from Aristotle and Plato, clearly non-christian and non-religious essentially coming from the golden rule of “treat others how you would like to be treated”. There is nothing Divine required to behave in that manor

mark says:

10:08am | 27/05/11

Peter, no one denies atheists can be moral. The problem is why are you moral? What foundation do you have to behave the way you do?

And don’t tell us it’s the moving ‘Zeitgeist’ or some other Dawkins rant.

trixie melodian says:

10:12am | 27/05/11

“The atheist morality police now insists on teaching ethics classes instead of religion”

Yes, those thoughtless bastards who worked hard for years with minority religious groups, secular organisations and concerned parents to ensure that ALL kids, regardless of religious background were offered fair and non-discriminatory education in schools. No wonder they are going to hell.

And PS, your “God” didn’t invent ethics - I know it hurts to hear, but there have been plenty of pre-Christian and extra-Christian societies who have managed to live pretty ethical lives. This tired old argument that ethics doesn’t exist outside Christianity has been so thoroughly dismissed so many times I can’t believe anyone is truly moronic enough to try and bring it up again.

fml says:

10:28am | 27/05/11

Mr God,

How about we just teach our children the laws of the land, would that be a fair compromise?

Luis Ortega says:

10:37am | 27/05/11

Sorry but wrong. Morals stem from society, not ancient books. When you read your holy books and think you’ve found morals, you just found things you already knew. That society put into you.

I’d invite you to read the Bible with an objective mind if you can. Don’t cherrypick, please read it. You’ll find plenty of morally reprehensible stuff in there.

May I remind you the atrocities that have been commited through history in the name of that very same book. And don’t tell me that’s not true Christianity, because it was for those who commited said atrocities. Think about this: the book has not changed, society has. That’s were morals ultimately come from.

Peter Hinton says:

12:00pm | 27/05/11

Mark - I want you to momentarily scrub your head of everything you ever learned in Sunday School, Church and Scripture Class. I want you to focus solely on what you know about the world through your own experience with it. Now…

What is more likely?
1) I am good to others because I know from experience that humans reciprocate both good and bad behavior?
OR
2) An invisible and all powerful ghost in the sky (who sees and hears everything, created the world in seven days and will one day destroy it and all of his loved ones) inserted a morality chip into the brains of each and every human on the planet that can only be activated by his love?

Your answer will sum up this entire argument for me.

Tired of Nonsense says:

03:15pm | 27/05/11

Is that the same ethical, moral god who asked moses to sacrifice his son at the top of a mountain, and then said, just kidding i was testing you.

God is ethics and morals says:

04:21pm | 27/05/11

The good book tells us not to lie, kill steal covet etc. I’m not saying that no-one else does the same, I’m just saying that’s what the good book tells us. It then proceeds to tell us the history of people not following these rules and the consequences. That’s called lessons in morality and ethics.

Peter I said quite the opposite, no matter how hard you try, you won’t be able to disconnect yourself from God because our society is permeated with it. I didn’t tell the schools to base their ethics classes on the Christian religion.

Don’t boil over gnomie and melo trixie no one is claiming exclusivity. I am merely stating some facts.

Too true luis that Christians have committed many atrocities in the name of God. Doesn’t make God bad, He’s just been given a bad rap by those
who claim to be his followers. Hypocrites is what his son called his followers and I couldn’t agree more.

Peter Hinton says:

05:12pm | 27/05/11

OK, so Christianity didn’t exist for the overwhelming majority of the time humans have spent walking the Earth (which, you might find interesting to learn, is hundreds-of-thousands of years. Not 10,000). What guided humans prior to 1AD? Whatever they were, the principles couldn’t have been too bad given that they sustained the species for so long.

I’m sorry but the “good book” wasn’t created in a vaccum. It was influenced by the social conditions in which it was written. The authors of the bible have no claim of originality on morals and ethics. This is not a chicken and egg story. Ethics and morality came first.

James1 says:

06:23pm | 27/05/11

mark,

My answer to your why question is this: I do moral things because it is the right thing to do.  According to the bible, one should do good because otherwise god will punish you.

In this conception, who is more moral and good?  The one who does good for its own sake, or the one who does good for fear of punishment?

God is ethics and morals says:

06:37pm | 27/05/11

Who’s claiming exclusivity Peter?

God is ethics and morals says:

07:15pm | 27/05/11

Tired of nonsense, that makes two of us.

I am very tired of people posting nonsensical comments. I’m also glad you asked.

A God who put laws in place such as do not kill, lie, steal or covet etc. will not ask anyone to sacrifice their child. Had you either applied common sense or read beyond Genesis and read the good book from start to finish you would have found f.i. at Jeremiah 7:31 that God did not ask anyone ever to sacrifice their child and anyone who ever did so is gonna be in a spot of bother.

Brad says:

08:40pm | 27/05/11

@ god is ethics: Mate, I doubt you have actually read a bible… “I will punish them!  Their young men will die in battle, and their little boys and girls will starve.  Not one of these plotters from Anathoth will survive…  (Jeremiah 11:22-23 NLT)
BTW there is also plenty on selling children into slavery, beating slaves, stoning people to death. You refer to the Bible - your so-called “good book” and the “word of god” as your source of ethics and morals, yet I challenge you to name a book in the bible that doesn’t promote some form of inhumanity.

mark says:

08:51pm | 27/05/11

James1, you miss the point similar to Dawkins who argues the same thing. You can claim that you do it because it’s the right thing to do, but what therefore is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’. You’re still left with no foundation and so Dawkins is left with nothing but the Zeitgeist, which unfortunately Luis, is precisely what you described.

Let’s take it further Luis. You sat there and criticised the Bible’s morals (albeit misunderstood). How can you with your position? You have no right under your morality system to criticise the moral society of 3000 years ago. During the middle ages it was ok to kill ‘infidels’. Under you view, you can’t criticise it since it was the society norm. A few centuries ago, it was ok to own and persecute slaves. Under your view, you can’t criticise it because it was societies norm. See the point? Your left with no moral footing at all

James1 says:

10:42pm | 27/05/11

And you are left with being coerced into doing good, Mark.  So again I ask, who is more moral?  The one who does it despite not believing in eternal punishment, or the one who requires the coercion of eternal punishment to do good?

mark says:

02:53pm | 28/05/11

James1, your still misunderstanding Christian teaching. Christianity denies that by being ‘good’ (whatever you take that to mean) you get to heaven. It teaches the opposite really, “no one is righteous, no not one”. We don’t be good to get to heaven, we be good out of gratitude for what God has done in Christ. No one is saved by being good, therefore your whole argument is void.

And you still are left with no moral compass. Until you give us a platform for deciding what is good and what is bad, you have no basis to even discuss the topic. You are arguing a point based on an assumption, namely, that there is an objective good and an objective bad. What are they? I say it is God, you say it is…?

God is ethics and morals says:

06:38am | 29/05/11

Brad, for your sake, we’ll do a take three. God said in his commandments, do not kill, lie, steal, covet etc. After that IN HIS NAME, his people continued on their merry way, killing, stealing, lying etc. God responded and said, if you don’t listen to what I tell you, you are going to be in a spot of trouble because I won’t have people in my name committing atrocities. And yet they continued. In Isaiah 5:20 f.i. there’s another stern warning about people calling good evil and vice versa and in Jeremiah 3:8 God divorced his people. I’m sure you can figure out for yourself what happened over history after that.

Also for your info not all books in the bible are in chronological order which is neither here nor there when one reads the good book from start to finish, it becomes abundantly clear who the goodies and the baddies are. ‘His’ people killed God’s own son for crying out loud. Then they insisted for his blood to be on their heads.

The bible also states somewhere that God told them to stone disobedient kids. Now I know some parents who think that is a brilliant idea. But God being in agreement with that? The one who said, Do not kill? No Brad, sorry that really is a no-brainer.

I would think that his son clarified that when he said, those without sin can throw the first stone ..

iansand says:

09:47am | 27/05/11

Speaking personally, you can teach your bronze age superstitions to your children whenever, and however, ypou want.  I just don’t want it taught to mine unless I choose to.  There is no agenda.  No desire to “crush” religion.  I just want to be left alone.

Seano says:

10:01am | 27/05/11

Sorry who’s doing the brain washing? Who is it that needs classes during school time to promote their propoganda?

Grant says:

12:45pm | 27/05/11

Dan,

You should be worried, your god will not save you because he isn’t real.

You are surely aware that there has been a fall in attendance numbers at most christian denominations from 96% in 1900 to 60% today. 

In addition, most young people who identify as having religious beliefs, only identify this on the census because they were brought up that way, and their parents religious beliefs, not because they believe in it themselves.

I give you about four or five generations and we will be around 10-15% ‘actual’ religious believers. 

Religion is losing the spiritual war.

Danno says:

02:23pm | 27/05/11

Grant,

Yes you’re right, attendance at some Churches are falling and this is a reflection on the type of society that we’ve become. It does not mean that God doesn’t exist, it means that society is becoming more self centred and wanting to live the ways of the world not wanting accountability to anyone except ourselves. Marriages are also falling, doesn’t meant that marriage is not relevant or does not exist? The Bible says that more and more people will hate God and Christians as we draw closer to judgement day (where you and I and everyone who has walked this earth will come before God). The Bible also says that values in society will change, and this was written over 2000 years ago. Society is increasingly becoming hostile against Christians, at the same time, we have become a society accepting gay marriage, same sex adoption, gambling, drug use, violence, genetic engineering, choosing sex of babies, abortion, cloning, etc. There’s a pattern here and people like you want God out of society and out of ‘our’ lives. Earth will be an interesting place in the future. Read the New Testament of the Bible before you spread your ignorant and brainwashed views about Christianity.

Cam says:

03:21pm | 27/05/11

All religions die eventually

TheRealDave says:

03:47pm | 27/05/11

roll on the enlightenment Dan, roll on….

Peter Hinton says:

06:58pm | 27/05/11

Old doesn’t equal true… or logical, or sensible or even sane. The Bible may be 2,000 years old but that doesn’t say anything about its varacity. It’s this kind of thinking that makes it soooooooooooooo easy to shoot-down religion. “What proof do I have? Why, I have this book written by anonymous people during the Bronze Age”. Well, what can I say? I’m sold!

Zee says:

10:18am | 27/05/11

“I really don’t see the big deal here.”

OK then, why is it “opt out” and not “opt in”? Why are suggestions of changing it to “opt in” so vigourously opposed? Why is it taught by volunteers and not part of a curriculum taught by qualified teachers? What if instead of Christian faith, each faith got a go at all schools - how would you feel about Scientologists teaching a couple of days a year? Muslims a couple more?

And what about the bad teachers who DO use it as a chance to push their faith on kids, telling them they are going to hell unless they toe the line? And these aren’t year 12’s we’re talking about, this starts in primary school. We aren’t allowed to criticise the bad because there are some good? We can’t change the system to find ways to minimise the bad because… why?

And here’s the kicker - why is it that when there is talk of making alternative classes available to the kids who opt out, the pro-RE crowd kick up such a fuss?

fml says:

10:29am | 27/05/11

Sounds like segregation to me, Integrate or leave, do you also live in a christian ghetto?

Seano says:

10:43am | 27/05/11

It’s 45 minutes.

It’s invariably delivered by a grumpy, unprepared, untrained old codger.

There’s little educational content about religion it’s largely propaganda and Jesus stickers, no curriculum or outcomes.

Yes you have the option of not allowing your kid to participate BUT those kids, the ones excused from scripture and those not catered for (and there are a lot of them) are NOT allowed to be taught anything. Perhaps for fear that someone might teach them to think for themselves. So if there’s no ethics class on offer (that’s most schools but some have Ethics classes no small thanks to Barry O) they do nothing for 45 minutes.

There’s not enough time in a week to cover the crowded curriculum as it is without wasting a lesson on something that should be kept to home and church. I wouldn’t object if there was a curriculum, objective and outcomes for RE with integration to other important strands such as literacy. But propaganda and colouring in Jesus has no place in schools.

RE in schools is a way for fading religions to keep their hooks in children as parents are more often not wasting their time at home with it any more.

Likes Joining Dots says:

08:31pm | 27/05/11

@Leah

As you say, it’s only 30-45 minutes RE per week at schools with no effect on conversions.

Surely it’s not too much to ask that such an ineffective program - using so little time, for no results be put on hold for a decade or so until the children become adults and can choose to attend if they wish.

Kassandra says:

01:20pm | 27/05/11

May the Force be with you…

Rose says:

01:12pm | 27/05/11

When were you at school? At lot of bigotry was not just religious, it was standard attitudes for the times. Most schools have progressed in line with society and removed those traces of bigotry, those that haven’t (I don’t know of any, but I’m sure there are some)should be reminded of their social responsibility.
My only educational institution is in Catholic schools, both as a parent and as a student.  I have only met one or two true bigots (in the early 70s and they were already old people then), several who were a little uncomfortable with certain areas or topics but mostly really good people doing the best they could. Few teachers in religious schools are regular church goers, but they do tend to understand the basis of the religion but they apply it realistically and in accordance with the attitudes of the wider community.

Tim says:

10:33am | 27/05/11

And you know this how?
At the school I went to, an independant Catholic school we were taught about all the major religions including Hindu, Buddhism, Sikh, Islam.
All the other Christian schools I know taught the same.

AJ says:

03:08pm | 27/05/11

@tim
Thats great for you. At the catholic school I went to we were taught catholicism. Thats it.

Just because YOU lucked out doesnt mean everyone does.

iansand says:

04:34pm | 27/05/11

Tim’s comment is interesting.  The daughter has been to 3 schools.  Public, Anglican and Lutheran.  The scripture she was taught in public school was along the lines of fire and brimstone your family (and guinea pig) will not go to heaven.

The RE she has received at denomiinational schools has been along the lines of what Tim says.  The denominational schools have ordained people, with education qualifications, teaching RE.  The nutters are not let anywhere near the kids.  Ironically, a denominational school may be a better environment for a non-believer than a public school.

MrMac says:

10:45am | 27/05/11

or the difference between GRE or SRE ...

Sickemrex says:

12:32pm | 27/05/11

I’m pretty sure Islam has a serious doctrine of sin, Allah, and a need to be saved.  I’m also pretty sure you would be pretty opposed to all kids having half an hour of Islam taught to them every week.  Ask some of those fundie mullahs if they’d be interested in half an hour a week in state schools, I reckon they would be quite keen.

Kika says:

02:58pm | 27/05/11

Original sin is from Genesis which stems from Judaism and is adopted by both Christians and Muslims to explain the world. See if you had RE lessons you would know that and not sound like a donkey’s ass pretending you know something you actually don’t.

randomscrub says:

05:18pm | 27/05/11

@ mark

and why do i need to be saved exactly?

i am fairly sure your answer will involve some circular logic ...

mark says:

09:10pm | 27/05/11

Sick and Kika,

Islam does not have a doctrine of original sin, not at all. They believe we are all born ‘good’ and satan enters us a birth thus making us bad. They also believe we need to be better rather than good to earn our way to heaven.

Christianity teaches (from all of Scripture, mainly Romans 1-3, not just Genesis) that people are sinful from birth (btw it is a theology that developed with Augustine in the 4th century AD, so therefore not a theology of judaism). Therefore, under a holy God we deserve punishment. Even if we were 99% good, we would still fall short, therefore we need redemption etc etc. That is why we needed Jesus, whereas Islam and Judiasm both reject the need for a mediator, since both teach we can work our way to heaven.

So contrary to both your opinions, no other faith system has a serious doctrine of sin, not at least one where we need a saviour becasue of it. Every other faith system saids we have the ability to save ourselves through our good works and ability.

I realise that most people think all religions teach the same thing, but the reality is rather different. I suggest reading an introduction to theology of all three montheistic religions i this area for a good start.

The Cricket says:

06:18pm | 27/05/11

100% agree, Lisa. Her argument is a straw man. The type of religious education classes she’s talking about are not what people are up in arms about.

Jack Thomas says:

11:47am | 27/05/11

Like Global Warming then?

Try again Paul.

I like the way you say “I am happy for kids to be taught..”, not my kids..

Again I love the way the majority (read the census for its clarification of the percentage of Australians identifies itself as Christian, then read more about what is actually being “taught” for less than one hour per week, if that) view has to bend to what you are happy with…Nice one.

The screaming Leftards here don’t even realise the curriculum being taught for this includes all religions, which may actually promote greater understanding of religions like Islam…ohhh?

fml says:

12:10pm | 27/05/11

Jack,

I certainly don’t like bending over, there shouldnt be any bending over, it should be about choice, the choice to choose whether you want your children to learn or not/

Luce says:

12:29pm | 27/05/11

Is it such a crazy idea that religion should be left out of schools altogether, and for parents who want to teach their children about their religion to take them to church / mosque / synagogue etc??

Religion is private matter. Asking religious people to keep it that way is not asking them to “bend over.”

Jack Thomas says:

05:40pm | 27/05/11

Yawn, like choosing where your tax dollar should be spent right?

The choice of the majority here is to have the stuff taught, but the minority is not left out because they can tell the school they want their kid to opt out.

Is that so hard to understand? If religion was a private matter, 60+% of the Australian population would have ticked “bugger off, that’s private” on the census instead of saying they were Christian.

I’m betting you don’t get so hot and bothered when your kid is taught Global Warming theory as fact and impending doom, have you demanded they opt out of sport as well?

You get to choose when you’re in the majority, sorry.

AJ says:

03:23pm | 27/05/11

This is an absolutely ridiculous argument. Parents arent feeding their children (or some kids value sleep more than breakfast), christians decide to bribe kids with food, therefore the christian way is the good way!

If they were simply providing food for the kids, then going on their way WITHOUT preaching to them, then hey, thats a good thing that I can respect.

If its in return for being able to preach to them for an hour a week then theyre essentially just paying for converts. Dont try to pass that off as being noble and righteous.

Tired of Nonsense says:

04:04pm | 27/05/11

Similar to the Muslim Brotherhood. Many families living in absolute poverty throughout the Middle East are approached by this organisation and offered a sum of money in return for each female member wearing an abbaya.

Jolanda says:

12:06pm | 28/05/11

This kids saying that they haven’t had breakfast always makes me laugh.  Sure there might be a minority who live in a household where the parents do not provide breakfast but for the majority when they know that at school they will be fed if they say that they haven’t had breakfast then the majority will say that they haven’t had breakfast.  An interesting exercise would be to ring the parents to see whether in fact it is true that the child isn’t being provided with breakfast and if so why?

My children have attended public schools and now attend Catholic schools and religious education in the Public school system was a joke and pretty much they did nothing except waste time and yes there were some volunteers with some very weird ideas that they presented to the kids.  In the Catholic Primary schools my kids found the religious aspect ‘over the top’ but in high school they have enjoyed it as it really does deal with all religions and doesn’t push anything down their throats.  Of course my kids are in Catholic schools because the public school system totally failed them and I must say that since they have been in the Catholic High School they have been the happiest that I have ever seen them at school and they do not feel pressured in any way or form.

Danno says:

12:27pm | 27/05/11

You have a point, we’d be better spending the money BRAINWASHING our kids to believe there is no God and that we all (including everything in this universe) came about out of nothing, by accident, by chance. Humans, as complex as we are, evolved from a bacteria….we and everyone living creature has all of a sudden stopped evolving and for so many years man has not been able to find proof of the ‘missing link’ to support evolution. Hmmm, now there’s something concrete to base beliefs on!

fml says:

01:41pm | 27/05/11

“we and everyone living creature has all of a sudden stopped evolving”

*facepalm*

ydi says:

03:29pm | 27/05/11

‘we and everyone living creature has all of a sudden stopped evolving’

oh my

fml says:

02:23pm | 27/05/11

If freedom of religion and freedom of choice are “Left and socialist ideas” Then call me comrade stalins brother in law husband wife man.

James1 says:

04:06pm | 27/05/11

I deplore both socialist and religious indoctrination.

You assume too much.

Andrew says:

08:11pm | 27/05/11

Leigh, you’re an idiot.  I’m a ‘conservative’ person by nature, I have never voted for Labor or the socialist party and I doubt I ever will.  But I think religion is stupid and has no place in society, and certainly not in our schools.  Strange that you should talk about socialism though - wouldn’t a religious society be the epitome of a socialist system?  Everybody helping everybody else, all living in poverty like the bible says you must, all ‘equal’ under ‘god’?  Sounds pretty socialist to me..  Well, except for those at the top, naturally, but every socialist state has it’s dictator, doesn’t it..

Suzanne says:

01:16pm | 27/05/11

So you want RE to continue because it’s our “culture” and you’re afraid the kids might be exposed to islam, buddhism or something in the absence of christianity?
What a p!ss poor argument. It might be your culture but it certainly isn’t mine and I don’t see imams or rabbi’s beating a path to state schools to preach to children.

People who want their children to have a religious education can still do so…it’s called Sunday school. No one is trying to stop them doing that.

If the weekly indoctrination session is all the exposure some children have to religion it’s because their parents CHOSE not to expose them to the hyprocrisy that is organised religion. Attending a state school should enforce that, not undermine it.

“A bit of Christianity wouldn’t hurt kids”.
Try telling that to the kids who are driven to isolation, depression or suicide because their ‘christian’ community believes they’re evil and perverted for being gay.

fml says:

02:16pm | 27/05/11

Kika.

Are you say you are upset because you want the right to force your religion on other peoples children?

Kika says:

02:48pm | 27/05/11

Well ‘a’ culture is better than no culture. Look at Europe. They have done what we are trying to do. Now they are fighting against the waves of immigrant cultures eroding their own native ones because they wiped them all out to be more PC and accomodating to everyone. Eventually being a white heterosexual Christian man won’t be accepted.

Kika says:

02:52pm | 27/05/11

No. If you don’t want your kids to have a religion, don’t send them to RE lessons. I don’t want to enforce anything on anyone’s child. But to some people having some understanding of their roots is important. And I am not a Christian fundamentalist that will corrupt my kids with my viewpoint alone. I am married to a Hindu so our kid can be educated in both worlds (including atheism because my husband is an atheist) and they can make their own informed mind up later on.

AJ says:

03:46pm | 27/05/11

‘No. If you don’t want your kids to have a religion, don’t send them to RE lessons’

No, if you or your children have decided they want to get involved in a religion, that is your personal choice, you can organise it in your own time.

‘I don’t want to enforce anything on anyone’s child.’

Then stop suggesting we do exactly that?

‘But to some people having some understanding of their roots is important.’

Thats cool. My kids dont need to understand your roots.

Suzanne says:

04:01pm | 27/05/11

Kika…your roots are not determined by your religion. And even if it was and having an understanding of your roots is important to you…send your kids to Sunday school. The whole opposition to RE in schools is because you ARE forcing it on my kids because it’s opt-out so it automatically marks the children of atheists as “different”  and they’re not allowed to do anything else during that time so even if they’re not taking the RE class, RE is interrupting their school time, which in a secular state school is unacceptable.
Which European culture are you referring to when you say they’re fighting to preserve it? Every country has it’s own culture and every culture has it’s own subculture. English, Irish, German, Lituanian, Maltese, Swedish…all very different cultures and with borderless travel for EU citizens all cultures are now intermingling yet each country has managed to retain it’s national identity. How are they being destroyed exactly?
I was at home in Ireland earlier this year and I saw no evidence that the irish culture was disintegrating in any way. I suspect you have been listening to too much talkback radio.

And really, for someone who’s married to an atheist-hindu I would have thought you’d be more accepting of “other” cultures.

ZSRenn says:

04:11pm | 27/05/11

Who said the Bible was the word of God. I think you have it mixed up with the Koran. I have been taught since youth that it is mainly a book of myths and legends, A list of Birth Deaths and Marriages and some words of wisdom.

When you argue against something make sure you know what your talking about otherwise you just look ignorant.

JimmyMac says:

04:07pm | 27/05/11

Did anyone else follow the link? I sure hope it was added tongue in cheek.
What a simplistic, puerile piece of garbage.

A Spade's a Spade says:

09:33pm | 11/06/11

Ha Ha Ha, ‘having rigorously tested….blah blah…I’m a forensics auditor’.

Well you might want to consider a change of career.

I thought auditors were all about obatining OBJECTIVE evidence and comparing / contrasting it against a given criteria. Proofthatgodexists is NOT objective criteria, merely a crackpot attempt to say if you think raping 4 year old children is not okay then you agree there is a God. You might want to ‘audit’ the book of genesis - I don’t know -  maybe count ribs that men and women have or study the vocal ability of a snake and whether or not it could say “apple” or how many loaves and fishes it would objectively take to feed a multitude, the chemical processes involved in turning water from wine etc etc.

Anyhow, good luck with your future forensic auditing…

Anne Stocks says:

11:57am | 13/06/11

Hi WilliamK, just wanted to thank you again for your Link, I have passed it on to my friends andcontacts and they will no doubt pass it on to theirs and so on, my Husband thought is was great and like me was very impressed with how it was presented.  I also found a very good Link that really encouraged me which I hope will also uplift you ..  see below, although very differant in presentation both of them present God’s Truth in an undeniable way,  that is of course if you have eyes and ears to see and hear,  but sadly as we know if your an Atheist or are committing Apostasy then the darkness is very great as the Scriptures confirm.

A person who is not teachable meaning not willing to accept God’s Truth, which is also all those who deny His existence, unless the Spirit is drawing them to repentance no matter how much we witness or show them the reality of what we not only believe but know it is the Truth, they will continue to reject it and us, yes sometimes seeds my be planted and we need to pray that Satan doesn’t snatch them away or the worries of life or the love of chattels cause them to loose their focus, but thankfully those who are God’s Children will be rescued.

Thanks again William for your stand for the Lord may we both continue to grow and be perfected in Love and all those in the Body of Christ. I’m upholding you in prayer in your work as a Forensics’ Auditor, this must be very rewarding, I’m also upholding you in your personal life, may you be greatly blessed -  Christian Love Anne

http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/aqoo/

William Colvin says:

02:47pm | 27/05/11

Neither Easter nor Christmas are Christian festivals, they derive from Pagan celebrations and were stamped into Christianity by the Church.
Easter was a pagan fertility festival in service to the pagan goddess Estra, whilst Christmas was originally named Saturnalia, and was a month long winter solstice. Saturnalia particularly offended the Church, thus the renaming. In all cultures there is always a central feast and a winter feast, the names are clearly unimportant.
Learn your history you f**king smarm.

James1 says:

04:04pm | 27/05/11

I will do that as soon as you stop taking antibiotics, which are a product of evolution.

Maybe you can stop being so hypocritical and use faith to get over your next chest infection.

Also, I would make fun of Islam, but I like to keep my posts relevant to the topic at hand.

Robbo says:

04:18pm | 27/05/11

Islam isn’t taught in schools buddy. Read the article again

Barry Simpson says:

07:44pm | 28/05/11

Jack, there is no need to get angry at those you speak of, so full of hatred for Christians and Jews, yet so strangely obsessed- to the point of fawning- over Islam.
Pity these humanist types, and their crazy, oh so crazy religion of evolution. And have a quiet smile over their ‘evidence’ in support of their religion, as their mentioning of obscure figures, big words, and whatever are intended to paper over the wholes in their belief system. Whatever the staus quo is, they will be there. At the moment it’s cool to think the way they do, so they do it. If their cult told them that you must stand by the highway and pick your nose, they would slavishly do it, and demand that everyone else do it with them.
So take a chill pill, don’t let it annoy you, and just have a smile about them. This is how I have dealt with the stupidity of people for years, and it makes one a lot more content. Be proud that you are not part of the staus quo, for to be a part of it doesn’t say much good for anyone at all. And remember, their hate and slurs only point out that they don’t have much capacity to make an enlightened argument.

Jack Thomas says:

06:03pm | 27/05/11

Sure thing Al, maybe when our Australian soceity is founded on those beliefs and festivals…oh, and when the majority of our Australian soceity subscribes to those beliefs, instead of listing themselves as Christian in the census.

I just can’t understand why learning a little bit about the foundation of our culture and soceity must be so abhorrent to the smarmy types that they get so upset about this. Must be the self hating white middle class thing again…

MrMac says:

03:18pm | 27/05/11

Better to have some components of society to counter the wacko fundy perents, too

Zaf says:

04:17pm | 27/05/11

MrMac, all parents already make their children crazy in their own particular image.  Hard to do anything about that in a consistent and fair manner.

joeyjoejoejnr says:

10:17pm | 27/05/11

Jesus is the Son of God

Luke says:

07:28pm | 27/05/11

Lol… “dont force on someone else”...
Ok…  so i guy is dying of a drug overdose… you saving him is you “forcing a belief” on him right?

Brad says:

09:04pm | 27/05/11

@lone gunmen: Perhaps you should have spent more time studying English than the bible… Grammar does help when you are trying so very hard to appear intelligent. Or maybe you are simply a troll?

Adrian says:

09:57am | 28/05/11

“It does not take much for the ugly atheist to post either…” says the person decrying bigotry and intolerance. Do you have the intelligence to recognise how incoherent your statement is? I don’t think so.

Tedd says:

07:55am | 28/05/11

Barry,
Evolution has been verified by the extensive genetic studies of Austrian Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel that gave rise to the Laws of Inheritance, the detection of chromosomes, the knowledge of animal and plant breeding - all put together as the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis in the 1940s - and further verified by the subsequent determination of DNA and the way it works through transcription, RNA, etc.

Besides, evolution is not a religion as religion involves supernatural claims - even Scientology.

sir ronald bradnam says:

08:08am | 28/05/11

@Bart Simpson ........ One thing I have never truly been able to understand as a non believer in sky fairies and imaginary grand poobahs who rule our lives. Is why religious zealots and the church in general find it OK to mock the thoughts of Non believers and feel the need to lobby politicians for money and concessions to do good work and to spread the name of their Sky Wizard, yet, dont feel that these same opportunities should be available to the more normal undeluded members of society.
That religion is evolution, arguably the most crazy and implausible faith of all…..........well I suppose if you believe this statement then there is no hope for you and OJ Simpson is innocent, truly delusional in the face of all the evidence to write a sentence like that.

Barry Simpson says:

06:21pm | 28/05/11

Of course you would disagree that evolution is religion, the Taliban would disagree that Islam is religion. They think it’s the truth, just as you do with your faith. All you have done with your responses is prove that you are as fanatical in your faith as Muslims are about theirs, Jews about theirs, and Christians about theirs.
Sorry, but this is just the absolute truth. Sorry to bring down your house of cards, but if you want to keep believing this crazy stuff, putting your faith in crazy, crazy implausible stuff, good luck to you. In the meantime, others will look for the truth.

Barry Simpson says:

06:47pm | 28/05/11

Guys, I’m not mocking you for your faith. Faith can be a great thing, I just pity those who misuse it on such crazy nonsense like you. You are easily misled. You would be nazis in nazi Germany, communists in Stalin’s Russia, and whatever is the staus quo in any given place on any given day.
Just a follow-up to your comment about the supernatural element, Tedd, one oxford entry for the word religion states, ‘a particular system of faith and worship,’ which is what you guys are into. Of course, you don’t believe in a God, but you place man, with all his lies, agendas, deceptions and so on, above all else. Hence your referring to obscure figures and their heavily biased, agenda-driven musings, as if they’re definitive.
Goodness me, this whole whacky cult even refers to its beliefs as the ‘Theory of evolution’, and any unbiased look at the whole thing will, at the very least, lead one to assume that a massive leap of faith is required to swallow it up. But I guess the leap from theory to fact in some easily misled, staus quo- driven minds, is not a big leap at all.

sir ronald bradnam says:

09:21am | 29/05/11

@Bart using the term ‘this is the absolute truth’ is arrogance in the extreme. It is an opinion only with evolution it is impossible to know the absolute truth, yet, but we are finding more everyday. With religion it is impossible to believe that the earth and universe was molded by a sky wizard, just think about it for a second which one makes more sense. We know for a fact that evolution occurs as there are documented changes to both an environment and the human body within a generation. There is not one shred of physical evidence of any god whether they have a long white beard, wear a towel head, or have 8 arms and snakes for hair.
Evolution is not a religion, stop listening to your dress wearing free thinking mind oppressors on a sunday morning, evolution is a fact and is documented unlike sky fairies.
Aetheism, is not a religion I am not a believer in aetheism so dont use that or an equivalent term, I humbly chose not to believe in the existance of an omnipotent supernatural dictator who lives in the clouds and no one has ever seen.

A Dose of Reality says:

09:38pm | 29/05/11

Barry (Homer?) Simpson.

Please post some more!

Comedians need material!

And your arguments prove the position that religion is contrary to education.

David Stasey says:

12:34pm | 28/05/11

This is horrifying. Disgusting. Over the past few months this topic has come up often and I have read many posts. This is the first time that I have felt physical revulsion including towards the author. If it is a parody then it is a bloody good one.
I have cut and pasted this and will distribute it widely. It is the best illustration I have yet seen as to why these people must never be allowed near any children.
Many people sit on the fence and/or trust in the “good hearts” of the volunteers. This frightening example of the manipulation of trusting young minds is clearly seen as a good thing worth boasting of by this type. I fear for their own children even more than those of others.

A Dose of Reality says:

05:44pm | 28/05/11

I agree, David.

While the story itself is horrible - The truly frightening thing is that this person thinks the tale above validates what she does!

This is an example - a very clear example - as to why ‘religion’ should not be allowed into schools.

Barry Simpson says:

07:01pm | 28/05/11

Good for you, Anne. And disregard the feigned shock in the responses to your post. We both know that what it boils down to is that such people have a burning hatred of Christians and probably Jews as well, and want their own religion, The THEORY (self-titled, not my choice of word) of evolution to have a monopoly on religious education in schools. Keep up the good work.

Oh really? says:

07:22pm | 28/05/11

Dear god (sky fairy) I hope this is a send up. If not, you are the very reason I don’t government funded chaplains anywhere near my kids. How dare you think you have the right to mess with the minds of young children like that. You have just proven every argument put forward by those of us against letting people like you into schools. (But then again, you are most likely on our side and making this up. Nobody could be this deluded that they think it is acceptable to do this)

Jack Thomas says:

01:45pm | 02/06/11

Strange that you pillory those who believe in God, yet you fall hook line and sinker into believing an internet Troll.

Shot yourself in both feet there.

Glad I’m not on your email list David Stasey, your riveting emails must really engender you to your long list of ‘friends’. Delete.

The reactions of the smug pseudo intellectual elite here is the same as a bigot ranting about the entire aboriginal race because he/she saw one drunk in the street, or the Talk back radio caller “I think so and all my friends reckon too..”

Just as @Oh really..? smugly places hysteria and ridicule on someone’s beliefs (Sky fairy?) and he is so sure about his own that he happily also indoctrinates his children into “his” beliefs, rather than allowing them to learn more, as this policy is meant to do.

That’s what I love about the self loathing middle class here in Australia, they blindly follow the likes of a Cate Blanchett (seriously a rich version of a street performer with possibly an Arts degree) but loathe the established thinking our soceity is based on. Also the same reason why Australia has one of the lowest charity donations per capita in the developed world, disdain for our own people comes free with your inner city terrace house.

Barry Simpson says:

06:34pm | 28/05/11

Yes, all religions are man-made, not least of all is the great deception , the crazy, unprovable idea that we stemmed from apes and evolved to what we are today. So then, what is the answer as regards what can be taught in schools? It’s a good question.

Adrian says:

08:25am | 29/05/11

@Barry Simpson - get a clue, Barry, will you. Humans didn’t “stem from apes” - we evolved alongside apes from a common apelike ancestor. The evidence is right there in the fossil record. And please familiarise yourself with what a scientific theory is (hint: it’s not sheer speculation unsupported by evidence - like creationism). Oh and while you’re at it, try to divest yourself of the idea that evolution is a religion. It isn’t, and claiming that it is misrepresents religion, evolution and science generally. As well as making you look like an idiot.

Bee says:

02:04pm | 29/05/11

@Barry Simpson it’s evident from your posts that you don’t understand evolution or the way science works at all. It’s fine to debate and offer alternative points of view, but you have to know what you’re talking about. I noticed some posters trying to explain it to you, but you aren’t listening. Go and read up on it, even a wikipedia entry if you have to, then come back and debate, because really, you’re wasting everybody’s time with your silly posts. I repeat, you don’t understand the concept you’re criticising.

Anne Stocks says:

09:04am | 29/05/11

I agree with you Luke,  but let’s not teach error but Jesus Christ,  as we know He is The Way , The Truth, and The Life and no one goes to The Father except through Him.

But so True what you say Luke,  you can’t Love God and money you will Love one and hate the other… as Christians are we to hate money,  yes if we are putting it before God the same as anything else including our Children , Parents, Spouses etc

Thank you Luke for sharing and may God bless you greatly in your obedience to Him - Christian Love Anne.

David Stasey says:

11:41am | 29/05/11

Hey. Aren’t you late for church?

Anne Stocks says:

02:30pm | 29/05/11

Do you Love me as a Person of worth David I think your words were ...

This is the first time that I have felt physical revulsion including towards the author.

Sounds like I am your enemy David but it seems for you this is anyone who upholds the Lord and His guidlines, to be honest it would please me if you printed and distribute widely my Story many need to have Hope but perhaps you were only talking about those who agree with you ... do you know what the Scriptures tell us… when we are critical of others we are seeing our own reflection ... now what did you say about me David or think and feel about me ......

David when you can create a Pet then you can voice your views against The God that Created you and who you will be answerable to… I will continue to pray that you come to heart repentance and like Kimmy and me and many other Christians you will know the Joy of being in Unity with the Creator .

Mark 10:13-15 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Take Care David - Your fear shows you Lack God’s Love ( 1 John 4:17-19 )

David Stasey says:

03:39pm | 29/05/11

Hi “Anne”.You should check this out - I’ve been cruising around the interwebs since you inspired me to get active. I mean you are really funny but these guys are absolute gold. http://www.landoverbaptist.net/
The “revulsion” was when I thought you might be real and even then not specifically personal anyway. It’s how I feel about all child abusers.

David Stasey says:

03:40pm | 29/05/11

Hi “Anne”.You should check this out - I’ve been cruising around the interwebs since you inspired me to get active. I mean you are really funny but these guys are absolute gold. http://www.landoverbaptist.net/
The “revulsion” was when I thought you might be real and even then not specifically personal anyway. It’s how I feel about all child abusers.

Anne Stocks says:

07:05pm | 29/05/11

Why should I check your link out David how long did it take you to find something that you think will prove your point that Christians are crackpots or at least off the planet, strangely in a we are off the planet because we really don’t have the same focus as most of the worlds Population,  the Scriptures call Born again Christians Aliens meaning we don’t really belong here,  we are also called Ambassadors do you know what this means?

Back to your Link perhaps I should give you one of mine about all the Evolution Scientists that are now Christians having found that Evolution didn’t present facts,  just guess work,  except of course those things that are in agreement with Creation,  but do you really want to know the Truth David,  it would mean you would have no excuse, not that you have one now, to Claim there is no God ...have you created a Pet yet ?

So what makes me an expert I don’t profess to be one but at least I have been on both sides of the question ...have you David ? I know from experiencing both Evolution which like many of the uninformed I propagated and also Christianity which I now share and have no doubts about ... that’s why it does not rock my boat when someone has a go at me for standing up for God’s Truth,  I answer to Him and He commends me for contending with Him but of course you don’t believe in God do you David… by the way have you Created a Pet yet,  He did and He created you too.

Perhaps I should also share about Child abusers David having been abused 5 times from the age of 3 till I was a Teenager by different men,  I was not looked after properly having been abandoned by my Mother at 4 years of age, she was an Alcoholic and bashed me, so perhaps it was a blessing ... You have no understanding of what real abuse is but it sounds good to you to slander others with that tag. I was healed of that abuse by The Lord even though it haunted me for years and caused me great heartache. I have now forgiven the abusers and my Mother which has set me free ...  Mixing poison for someone else to drink means your drinking it yourself .

Back to your Link… as you know my name is Anne but my friends call me Annie, it is also my Pen name but that does not make it real only to my friends and me and those who read what I write.  Some call themselves Christians but do not reflect Jesus Christ - the name Christian to many means Christ in you. Jesus in nature is like God The Heavenly Father and the Bible tells us God is Love not hate but sadly many claim even some Church goers that He is a cruel and revengeful God but they don’t know Him or His compassionate heart, yes He is Holy and hates evil and only tolerates it so none of His Children will perish, but it is not His will that anyone suffers even though they will.

Sorry David I have no interest in your Link,  as I said I have a few for you too but what does it really prove unless you want to know the Truth… God’s Truth.

Take Care David I will pray for you - Kind regards Anne.

David Stasey says:

09:47pm | 29/05/11

I was actually too concerned for your mental state to continue this but did start to distribute your story (as you requested). Feedback was that you are real but a habitual liar and your story was unlikely to be true. It was pointed out that only a week ago on this very site you spoke of your mother making donations but today claim to be abandoned at 4yo. I was also pointed toward your nonsense on other sites. Shame on you for trying to exploit my concern.
I’m not going to argue the ins and outs of this or any other matter. If a word of your story is true and you have a shred of integrity, then you will present to the Education Department and explain yourself.
Let us know how that goes.

A Dose of Reality says:

09:24pm | 29/05/11

Please read a dictionary.

Look to the words “religion” and “secular”.

Then read your post.

If possible - take a course in logic.

Then read your post.

You might understand why there are a lot of people laughing at you now!

Anne Stocks says:

07:26am | 30/05/11

P.S David, I forgot to mention, they also claimed Jesus was mad but no doubt they questioned their own sanity when He Rose from the Dead.

Regardless David of how much you try to triumph over The Lord and His people you will be defeated.

God always has the Last Word…  bit of a Punch don’t you think except that His words are Loving and Truthful and so they have a greater Punch then those who have fear… they knock all the Yuk out of you if you listen and take them to heart.

Take Care of yourself David and others… them first - Christian Love Anne.

Ian says:

02:43pm | 30/05/11

Hello Annie,
I have to ask you a question.  Are you a real person?  Your comments have to be fake.  There is no way a normal rational adult, who has claimed to know about evolution would make the comments regarding creating a “pet” from dirt like you have.  This comment that you have pushed throughout your posts would have to be the most ridiculous oversimplification of reality that I have ever witnessed.  The “experiment” you have requested the children perform does not prove gods existence.  It does not really prove anything.  How about you show us the evidence that your god created anything.  From your posts, I have little doubt that whatever reply you return will be filled with inane drivel and no actual, verifiable science of any stripe.  I would like to know which school you teach at so I can warn parents of what their childrens young minds are exposed to.  If you are so sure of your position and have nothing to fear from the Dept of Education, then you will have no problem backing yourself up.  Let us know when you have that verifiable proof of creation so I can test it.  I am a scientist so have the ability.  PS.  Please dont use something as simple as saying that we are here so that proves that god created us.  I would imagine that this would be the first thing you will jump to.

Anne Stocks says:

09:58pm | 30/05/11

Hi Ian, I don’t have to answer to anyone accept God,  but I did feel concern for your confusion… as a Scientist I would have thought that you would know that I must exist if I am posting in other words I am a real person flesh and blood and Spirit -  or do you think I’m an Angel ?

If you really take the time Ian to read all my posts instead of just claiming to have done so you will find your questions answered. 

The reason I decided to answer your post even though I have a lot of preparation to do is because by your posts you seem to have doubts about your understanding of how we came into existence and I wanted to help shed some light on this for you… Have you created a Pet yet ??? God has and you also.

But for your Scientific mind the link below will help you resolve some of your conflict and yes they are real people,  I did some voluntary work for them a few years ago. The Scientists are very knowable but very humble Men,  although they are indeed to the point… I hope you can handle that.

http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-study-guide-lesson-1

Take Care - Anne ( Annie)

Brad says:

02:13am | 31/05/11

Scientist hmmm? Even though u completely ignore evidence, is that not a bit counter productive? I suggest u google project Steve if u really are a scientist to see just how ridiculous your position is amount the scientific community, I did laugh at your link though, for a scientist a little research would quickly show u all of those arguments have been peddled and debunked for years…. What next answers in gen?  Appalling work if u are what u claim…..

Anne Stocks says:

02:59am | 31/05/11

P.S Hi again Ian…  It is of course always your choice if you check out my links but they will shed light. in the darkness ...

The one below is in Scripture and you will I hope find it helpful in explaining why you have trouble understanding me and other Born again Christians. 

1 Corinthians 2: 1-16

Take Care - Kind Regards Annie ( Anne)

Ian says:

11:14am | 31/05/11

yep, thats pretty much what I expected.

The link leads to a creation page with arguments that most high school students should be able to poke holes in.  My favourite section was “how evolution harms science”.  My colleagues and family have had a good laugh. 

I have three points to make.

1.  Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie. who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove and evil force from your soul that is present because a woman, made from a rib, was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.  Sounds plausible!?

2.  It is impossible to have a logical debate with an individual who has reached their position with anything other than logic. 

3.  “Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience” Greg King

Anne Stocks says:

02:11pm | 31/05/11

Hi Brad in regard to what you said ...

Sadly it seems to be True that those who go by their own or someone eles understanding especially in regard to Evolution even though they have no real evidence to prove their core beliefs twist and read into things that are not there claiming others are in error without even being able to substantiate their own agenda ...Some even claim to have read provided Links that confirm they are in error but it seems by their statements they have not fully read them or understood what they have read so they pick a few points they remember in regard to Evolution which they think refutes Creation while still having no concrete evidence of their own which means it is their ego that is preventing them from learning the Truth .

You have also read into what I said and claimed something that is not true which is that I am a Scientist ... I never said I was a Scientist it isn’t even where my heart focus is… I’m a Christian writer but it is not my Profession, I do not make a living from it, I mainly write to encourage and uplift others and to share God’s Truth and I’m still learning as we all are. What I said was that I did some voluntary work for them but this was not in regards to their Scientific research in confirming for those in doubt the Truth of Creation,  which has been proven today , yesterday,  last week, last year, 2000, years ago and so on…...

I feel sorry for your confusion Brad which seems to be in more ways then one,  but please don’t be in despair there is always hope if you are willing to learn ... Are you?

Kind regards Anne

David Stasey says:

04:01pm | 31/05/11

@Anne Stocks.
Hi. It seems that you are still posting here.
You have made the following offers.” also I have a blue card would you like the number ?” and “do you want the name of my Doctors?”
I’ll take you up both of these. Please either post them here or send the details to davidstasey@live.com.au.
I am in Melbourne. I assume from your reference to a “blue card” that you are in Queensland.
Cheers.

Brad says:

09:00pm | 31/05/11

Sorry Annie,

I had rather nefarious intentions should you bite and sadly for you, you did. That’s right, you are NOT a scientist, so how are you qualified to make these blind assertions that fly in the face of reality. It is YOU who is the armchair speculator, reading up on fallacious websites thinking you have it all figured out. If you have something of real merit to put forward… lets have it Linking to a website that we see peddled out by the intellectually corrupt time after time gets boring because there is no new content there… nothing for us to laugh at any more as its all been done…

Sorry, but making the assumption that you are smarter than a global community of intellectually elite who agree whole heartedly (well in excess of 99% of accredited scientists) in that we evolved by natural selection is nothing short of deliberate incompetence.

Science rewards those who make ground breaking discoveries; someone who was able to actually disprove evolution would have or still could win a nobel prize. All you require is actual evidence. The problem that you are your ilk seem to have, is that all of your arguments HAVE been tried, HAVE been tested and left wanting… To date, there is NO evidence which directly contradicts the fundamentals of evolution.

If you have some, present it and get your awards… seriously. There is probably a lot of money in it too, think of all those kids in Africa you could feed with a few million bucks!

I do apologise for being rather conceited in baiting you into this however I couldn’t resist.

After all, your completely laughable “have you created a pet” argument had me in absolute stitches..

Your claim is that, if we cannot create life, how can we pretend do understand how it was created… well along those lines…

Does one need to create gravity to understand it? No, that is absurd. The very same principle applies to your “logic”.

We will ignore that we have engineered synthetic single celled organisms, but that’s beside the point.

There is no requirement for us to create anything at all to understand how the process of evolution works or review the several fields of science which completely mesh to back it all up…it takes a lot of data and facts to bring together this scientific theory…

Key point here, is SCIENTIFIC Theory which is different from… “i have a theory….”

That is… the highest possible form of evidence in science outside of laws which are reserved for mathematical equations.

I don’t need your thinly veiled patronising pity as the only reason I entered this discussion was that you really crack me up The world never ceases to amaze me on how close minded people can be. Before you try and accuse me of the same… born and raised christian, attended church every week, whole heartedly believed it for years…. then i got to about 13 and it went the way of santa and the easter bunny.

I have sampled the coolade and I don’t need any more… I don’t need salvation, I don’t even care about afterlife… I’m perfectly fine with this being it. I’m happy to say ‘I don’t know’ instead of invoking magic to explain it and I’m always happy to be proven wrong. Key concept here… PROVEN, hint, it involves evidence (no, fables written thousands of years ago by goat herders do not count).

andre says:

02:39pm | 02/06/11

@Ian
Is it more plausible that nothing exploded and created you and your witts, so now you can voice some criticism about religion ?

Anne Stocks says:

04:32pm | 06/06/11

Sorry Ian,  but it seems you did not read my post in detail or if you did you have forgotten that I answered your question about Metaphors meaning Stories with a moral to be understood and learn from,  but to refresh your memory, words have changed over time what we call a Metaphor today was called a Parable in the Scriptures meaning word picture and they were always called as such and they had a Spiritual meaning,  also The Lord would say it was a Parable if He didn’t it wasn’t.

In regards to the Scriptures you quoted they are based on the Law which was the Old Covenant given by God to protect His people and if read in context and with understanding they make sense and can be appreciated for what they were.

We are now under the New Covenant in Christ Jesus but to explain in detail would take many Posts but you can ask one of those that you mentioned who know the Scriptures.

As for my Qualifications or anyone else who has been Born again of God’s seed… see below…. those who have understanding will have no doubts regarding mine and their Authority to share God’s Truth when asked and within our God given role.

1 Corinthians 21 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that Love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in Him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with Spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? but we have the mind of Christ. (KJV)

In Scripture Man means Mankind unless specified Man or woman the same as brethren or brotherhood but it also depends on the context and it must not contradicts other Scripture -  Take Care Ian - Kind Regards Anne.

Anne Stocks says:

10:34pm | 07/06/11

Yes Ian I did mean Rhema, but sorry I spelt it wrong,  as I explained to you before I’m Dyslectic and the Spell check didn’t recognize it…. no doubt it’s Secular Ha Ha…..... 

Rhema refers to a word that is spoken and means “an utterance.” A Rhema is a verse of Scripture that the Holy Spirit brings to our attention with cation to a current situation or need for direction. The Holy Spirit illuminates particular Scriptures for application that are confirmed in our daily walk with the Lord.  (Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 26:75 - Luke 1:38 - Luke 2:29 - Luke 3:2 - Luke 5:5 - John 6:63 - John 15:7,8 - Acts 5:20 - Acts 11:16 - Romans 10:8–9, 17 - II Corinthians 13:1 - Ephesians 6:17 - Ephesians 5:25–26).

And there are many more Rhema,  Scriptures…....

I’m sorry Ian you have no understanding of the Scriptures and you do not understand who our God of Love and mercy is, so I will not debate or argue with you about what you don’t understand you are a worldly man or natural man ...see below

1 Corinthians 2 But the natural man received not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? but we have the mind of Christ.

In reference to my Blue Card number it was not to you that I offered it to anyway I would never give these details in a post or willingly give my e-mail address I also decided I would have been in dabger to do so when someone abuses me and calls me a lier as this man did and you have done also.

Perhaps you would like to check the Scriptures and Link below Ian, they my open your eyes of course they may not it is always your choice…  so what more can I say except that I will pray for you to find the right road before it is to late to do so.

.http://creation.com/whats-this-all-about
Proverbs 12:14-16

Psalm 14: 1

Good bye - Kind regards Anne