Rape on this scale is cultural, too

nihonin says:

07:04am | 31/12/12

+1

Salient point acotrel.

OzTrucker says:

07:49am | 31/12/12

The very same thing crossed my mind.

stephen says:

08:22am | 31/12/12

It may be that India expects a higher standard of us because we, The West, like to huff and puff our way around Asia and Russia giving, rightly or wrongly, lessons on human rights.
India, I’m sure, is well aware of its defect of castes and imbalances of social systems, but the initial response by the police to the the girl’s injuries was meagre, I suspect, because this kind of thing is commoner that everyone thinks and that it was only a recent realization that it is Christmas, when the locals got upset.
This statement is not to harm the specific cultural perceptions in India of rape - though there will be an element of it here - but may reflect a worldwide failure to regard a sexual attack as unique to gender eg. a more general perception of value, and a very serious crime indeed - as the above writer is trying to state, I think - and not merely a smack against previous cultural traditions.
This, I believe, is the recent realization of the Indian population’s revolt against this crime ; the culture there is changing right in front of our eyes.
(Christmas may have its utility, after all.)

Borderer says:

09:12am | 31/12/12

@Acotrel
A caste system will do that.

Really? says:

11:29am | 31/12/12

perhaps you should examine some of the links to the indian newspapers, or even read some of the articles in australian newspapers on this case to see the kind of response it has generated in india

Troy Flynn says:

11:44am | 31/12/12

You do have to wonder how seriously Indian authorities take these rapes. It was stated on Al Jazeera that a rape is reported in India every 20 minutes. And then there is the other current rape case where a 17 year old was raped by three men. The police tried to get her to drop the case and even had the audacity to suggest she pick one of the rapists to take as a husband!! She sadly poisoned herself rather than accept the police alternative to prosecuting her attackers.  But at least the police chief involved in suggesting she marry her attackers was stood down. Hope it’s permanent.

tez says:

01:59pm | 31/12/12

The Indian students that were bashed in Australia were male, of cause it was more serious

rotor says:

02:15pm | 31/12/12

Given the scale of the protests that occurred in India last week, the answer to your question is that this appalling rape/murder is regarded much more seriously than what ocurred to Indians in Australia. That said, the level of reported rape in India is lower than in Australia or most western countries.

TChong says:

09:02am | 31/12/12

Doc
I didnt read where you advocated removing females from the passengers in the boats you wanted to whole sale murder,last week.
And you’re lecturing on how women are treated second class?
See any inconsistancies there?
( I suppose, to be fair,  you were calling for all the boat people to be killed, - no discrimination on your part ) )
Over to you, Doc.

Dr B Goh Australian in Asia says:

09:52am | 31/12/12

@ T Chong. The Punch has removed my comments which you refer to. But if you have read it carefully what I wrote I was stating very simply that we need to destroy now the entrenched popular belief in Asia that Australia welcomes boatpeople.

I went on to write that future Australians will face a terrible choice if we do not destroy NOW this entrenched popular belief in Asia that Australia welcomes boatpeople. Will they have to use torpedo boats to sink the boats or face being conquered by a tsuanmi of millions of boatpeople? It was acotrel who twisted my words and claimed that I advocate killing boatpeople. On the contrary I am stating very simply we must not create the situation where future Australians are faced with such an impossible and cruel choice.

I just saw the film Back to 1942 on the internet. This is about what happened in central China in 1942 when a famine killed 3m people. One of the saddest scene was about the army stopping a train with thousands of refugees and went on to kill many of them to drive them away from Shaanxi the neighbouring province of Henan with the famine. The reason why the troops did such a war crime was to stop the flow of refugees as Shaanxi by then had millions of these refugees.
So my warnings to Australia on what can happen in future is not a crazy nightmare but something that can repeat a crime in history.

Henan in China at the time of the 1942 famine had 30m people. It now has about 100m people and it is the province of China with the most people.

TChong says:

11:24am | 31/12/12

Doc
The comment was removed, because advocating navy boats to sink a boatload of people, murdering them, is absolutely Himmler like loonacy, and you know it.
I was dissapointed the post was lifted so quickly, denying others a chance to read your POV.

You seem an intelligent person, Doc, so, why post it ?
BTW - a harsh reality- there are quite a few caucasian ozzies who would probaly think you are a “reffo ” too ( assuming your Punch name bears some relation to your forebears ethnicity,), and believe there are too many asians in Oz , already ( a view I dont share)
Pays to remember such an unsettling fact , from time to time, when advocating harsh treatment for “Them”.

willie says:

12:29pm | 31/12/12

I didn’t see the first post so maybe it was badly worded. The way the doc explains It here makes sense.
The problem with taking the soft option now is it makes the next round of decisions harder. The doc explains this then gives an historical example.
I feel you are only jumping on him because you are afraid what he is saying is true.

Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

12:57pm | 31/12/12

@ TChong. Thanks for your comments. Yes I am concerned that a regular contributor like yourself to The Punch could have got the impression that I was advocating the sinking of boats carrying people. It is certainly a crime to do so. I appreciate The Punch today to allow me to clarify what I wrote last week.

Mik says:

07:00am | 31/12/12

India has had and continues to have, many high profile female leaders. They, along with their male colleagues, have to publicly say that both parents have to teach their children that both sexes are equal, that “culture” is not an excuse for human rights abuses. Parents in the West too have an obligation to teach their children well. They have to also to look at those things which brought about this culture in the first place, eg the losing of daughters to the in-law family, the service of sons and their wives (slaves) to the son’s parents.The system has to be changed so that the parents do not have to degrade others so that they have security in their old age The cultural acceptance of violence and degradation of females is a learnt behaviour and can be changed. I believe there are many good men trapped in these cultures who are too afraid to speak out, because they too will be mutilated or killed.

NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

08:16am | 31/12/12

Hi Mik,

Thanks for your enlightening views on the role of many prominent female leaders in India. However I would like to ask why it isn’t making any difference to the actual suffering of Indian women? Yes our own up bringing and family background may determine our true destiny in life. But on the other hand the general stereo types and preconceived ideas regarding women in the society may actually play a far greater role than any other. 

Having female leaders aren’t really enough if they aren’t actively involved in bringing about any healthy changes to law and order issues. By that I mean setting good role models as law makers, judges and prosecutors as well as being actively involved law enforcement issues. Our family and cultural backgrounds maybe all important key factors however our living environment and available opportunities can truly shape us all into who we are and who we want to become eventually. Kind regards.

Mik says:

09:29am | 31/12/12

I agree, NK, the women who hold leadership positions, along with their male colleagues, have to step up to the plate. Indeed the people of Delhi seem to think that Ms Dikshit, head of that region, could have done a lot more a lot earlier. Indeed there are many strong Indian women who are in a position to speak out as you say. They cannot stay silent enablers and they have enourmous influence over their sons. They have to speak for those who are too threatened to speak for themselves.
Western feminists who try to speak out in support of women in these regions are sometimes vilified by their sisters who put culture above human rights
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2012/the-feminist-wire-censorship-an-unpublished-response/

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201110/the-beauty-myth-versus-the-veil-feminist-perspective

Tubesteak says:

01:48pm | 31/12/12

I think the author was trying to draw parallels with India and our society (she’s a feminist, after all, and must propagate the feminist victimhood myth). Namely that rape comes from a social hatred of women that men are indoctrinated in. It would be wrong to suggest that this exists in Australia with the reverence women are constantly held in here (look at any advertising where the male is the bumbling fool and the woman the hero or in schools where girls are told they are special and valuable simply because they are girls; but boys have to earn their place by being good at sports or work).

Rape in our culture is the act of an aberrant individual. It has nothing to do with cultural influence and can only be extended to the male’s own failed upbringing if anything at all beyond himself.

Rape in places like india can be said to be a product of society where women are not viewed as equals. The solution will not come from Australia or feminism. The solution comes from developing their economy and the attendant rise in education levels that it brings. The rise in education brings with it more liberal and egalitarian attitudes focused on the rights of individuals to participate in the economy (according to their abilities and choices) as an economy needs a well-educated populace to truly grow and function as efficiently as possible.

This is a matter for India’s development and must grow on its own. It cannot be foisted from without.

Lola says:

10:00am | 31/12/12

Your argument would make sense if this ‘culture’ thing you mention had no correlation with anything eg. crime. But, of course it does, so it’s relevant to link it, discuss it and condemn it where it needs condemning. We’re not blameless in Australia, but miles ahead of a caste-based, misogynistic, ancient culture like India. I’d like to see figures on Indian sex-attacks in Australia - despite the press’s sanitisation of the issue, I think they’re over-represented. To claim every culture has moral equivalency is idiocy.

HC says:

02:08pm | 31/12/12

@Lola

I’m not saying that all cultures are morally equivalent, hell I’m not even talking about cultures at all, all I’m saying is, if given the opportunity to get away with something like this, then this could happen anywhere.

People blame cultures and other stupid little excuses (like the lack of gun control in the US caused all those school kids to get shot for example) to assign blame because people want to think that humans don’t behave badly without a reason determining their actions.

All I’m saying is that people are animals and some animals like to behave worse than others.  There is no reason for it, it just is the way it is.  Laws and cultures and civilisation and society and other stuff like that just gloss over this fact.

St. Michael says:

12:31pm | 31/12/12

“Ultimately, understanding responsibility in individualistic terms keeps us stuck at an ideological impasse where bleeding-heart liberals want to make excuses for perpetrators and shock jocks want to hang them from the nearest tree.”

I’d say you’re right, Sickemrex.  It’s hidden behind four-syllable words, but yes, the author’s trying to say she’s against moral relativism without actually saying so.

“We all need to take some collective responsibility for being members of communities where sexual violence against women – committed by men cross-culturally – continues to exist.”

No doubt sexual violence committed against women, cross-culturally, tends to be done by men.

But sexual violence committed against men, cross-culturally, tends to be done by women.

Let’s make sure both are stamped out, not one.  Thus far the penalties for the rape of males, even underage males, are far less than the penalties for the rape of women - in this country or elsewhere.

AllRapeIsWrong says:

01:48pm | 31/12/12

St Michael, you have a point, no doubt, that sexual violence committed on males is just as vile, agreed. However, what irks me on this site is how men feel the need to cry “don’t forget about the boys!” constantly, when this article (and others like it) is talking in particular about cultural attitudes towards women which result in rape being commonplace, in order to further oppress them.

Rape is used as a weapon of subjugation in a society which is predicated upon “knowing your place” ie the caste system. The “place” of women in India (amongst Hindus, at least) is often below even the lowliest male, and it is reinforced with violence, including the sexual kind, up to and including murder. Please do not forget the main message of this peace in your rush to condemn moral relativism and include boys - who will grow up to be men with the same attitudes, if steps to rectify the common mind-set aren’t taken.

AllRapeIsWrong says:

01:52pm | 31/12/12

I meant “piece” of course. Interesting Freudian slip.

Sickemrex says:

06:53pm | 31/12/12

Until this year I considered myself to be as feminist as the next woman but after hearing that utter disgrace to humanity Greer refuse to condemn female genital mutilation and carry on about the PM’s arse I decided I am whatever the -ist is that wants all people to be treated decently.

Mephisto says:

10:17am | 31/12/12

Wow…. Way to make the world sound seem like an oppressive, hate filled open rape bonanza against the female species. Sexual violence is a serious issue but don’t you feel your statement is a little OTT?

Borderer says:

10:25am | 31/12/12

Pretty liberal with your branding there Kath, nice use of “pandemic” to try and rip in the shock value. Use of “overt” implies there is “covert” oppression everywhere else. Reference religeon to capitalise on ignorance though I can’t recall any religeon where rape is advocated. Finally you also bring in patriarchal culture to reinforce “oppression” two sentences before, overall 7/10.
Despite your offensive beat up of the true state of affairs, decent men don’t commit rape and we are the overwhelming majority. In Australia, equity for genders is enshrined in law, what you do with that equity is your business, not society’s.

Tim says:

10:32am | 31/12/12

“patriarchal culture, which persists to one degree or another in every country and society on earth”

Yes, to one degree or another.

ie. In some countries not at all, and in others, completely dominant. Exactly the same as every other type of culture, well done.

Although how you’ve linked this as the main cause of, or the whole problem itself, I don’t know. Those gender studies classes don’t seem to be paying off.

Borderer says:

11:19am | 31/12/12

Empowered
Wasn’t it only a couple of hundred years ago that the first English children born here were of gang rape?
Were you there? Let’s not bring any evidense to back things up, be free with wild conjecture… the governor also got first dibs….

We should not obsess with other cultures and countries when our own is still flawed and complicated.
Everyone loves a free ride on the band wagon and to sneer at other people, you just had a crack at the first white Australian’s….

and rape/murders are still common?
Since you’re asking a question, no, no they aren’t.

Mattb says:

11:56am | 31/12/12

It’s all the lefts fault.. Blah, blah, blah…. Blame the left….Blah, blah, blah.

David V, so divisive and full of hate that he uses the rape and murder of a defenceless human being as an opportunity to attack his political opposites. Not only that, its now two days in a row he’s used it. What a pathetic, ignorant little man..

David V. says:

01:37pm | 31/12/12

No, what’s truly pathetic is excuses being made for rapists and wife-beaters. Our culture is largely devoid of those sadistic practices because we are civilised. Moral relativism is a danger to freedom and humanity.

rotor says:

02:22pm | 31/12/12

David V is such a troll with his comments here that I am surprised that the comments are published. David V does nothing but damage the tone or quality of discussion here on The Drum.

Kipling says:

03:27pm | 31/12/12

A couple of points davidv.
You appear to make the issue a political one. It seems that demonstrates a lack of empathy or compassion.
Secondly: Who exactly has defended rapists?

Borderer says:

04:13pm | 31/12/12

As a righty it pains me to say it but Mattb is right, the damnable pinko….

nihonin says:

12:00pm | 31/12/12

+1

It’s their culture, their country, if the same attitude that allowed the rape to happen is brought to this country via immigration, then I’ll stand up and fight for all women who reside here. 

In my opinion, if you stick your nose into another country’s culture and laws and demand they change to suit your opinion/ideology, then say that culture/country has no right to comment on our culture or country and our laws, you are a hypocrite.

BLA says:

02:20pm | 31/12/12

Mouse - ‘This could happen anywhere’, yes, you are right. I recalled recent rapes by taxidrivers in Aus and a quick google search came up with this wonderful collection of ‘Australian’ cab rapists:

1. Brisbane - Taxi driver Sunveer Jassar, 28, found guilty of raping inebriated female passenger, 27, under Story Bridge
2. Brisbane - A former Brisbane taxi driver who raped a passed-out female passenger in the back seat of his cab last year has been sentenced to eight years imprisonment.  Former Yellow Cabs driver Gurpreet Singh, 24, ....
3. WA - Meanwhile his friend and fellow taxi driver Amrit Pal Singh, 32, was convicted on one charge of raping a woman in her 20s in the back of his cab last year. Mr Rajan (an Indian in WA) wrote a paper, “Indians in Australia – a critical look at sexual assault issues”, which calls for greater training of taxi drivers to deal with the “sexual repression” they grew up with in India and give better education about the freedom and role of women in western cultures.
4. Victoria - Pakistani taxi driver jailed for raping Victorian woman. Asad Ali, 48, formerly of Geelong, assaulted the woman, 18, as she lay alcohol-affected
5. Vic - Cab driver Usman Safdar is alleged to have taken advantage of two drunk female passengers in separate incidents seven months apart by engaging them in conversation and then raping them in his taxi.

I omitted similar articles from UK and USA…. It’s happening ‘anywhere’, because the west is taking ‘anyone’ in, no questions asked.

Levi says:

04:17pm | 31/12/12

Watch out. Mattb and other leftists like him will come up with a typically small minded retort when they lack a coherent opinion.

See above:
“It’s all the lefts fault.. Blah, blah, blah…. Blame the left….Blah, blah, blah.”

It would be interesting to see if those girls were still raped if Bilal Skaf (or his parents) were denied access to Australia.

M. Mouse says:

12:54pm | 31/12/12

Yes Jaqui it certainly is a paradox. How many of the front bench would be stoned for adultery in their brave new world?

Or perhaps they are just too stupid to realise how contradictory their nonsense ideology is and this example shows how hollow thier rants are when comared to real victims in the real world.

Chris L says:

01:34pm | 31/12/12

Perhaps lefties believe that cultures and religions can outgrow their darker tendencies, the way our culture is still working to overcome old bigotries. If it were impossible for this to happen we’d have to ban Christianity for endorsing slavery and murder of people who wear differing cloths.

What is it with people equating multiculturalism with rape anyway? Was there no such thing as rape in Australia before the term was invented?

nihonin says:

04:32pm | 31/12/12

I had the same problem, my ex accused me of supporting female circumcision in Muslim countries as I wouldn’t speak out on it.  It is their country, their culture and it’s not just men who hold the girls down (sorry sisterhood but that’s how it is).

Bring it here to Australia, well that’s a different story.  chick chick   know what I mean!