One little-known factoid from the celebrated spate of robberies by three burqa-clad bandits in Wollongong this May is that the criminals were not Muslims, and most certainly not Muslim women, but three blokes from Colombia who were more likely to have links to the Medellin Cartel than Al-Qa’ida.

Veiled attack…Abbott's remarks invited online invective. Photo: Getty Images

Nevertheless, these Colombian fellows were responsible for setting off a wave of spirited and pretty tangential public discussion about how Islam was changing the Australian way of life, and that it was time we followed the lead of France and made it illegal for women to wear burqas in this country.

Fred Nile, who appears to be on speed dial for this re-occurring story, said the case (involving Colombian men) showed how easy it would be for Muslim ladies to hide a bomb or a Kalashnikov up their Taliban-style frock. Liberal senator Corey Bernardi blogged about the issue too, billing the (Colombian) case as something of a final straw in the defence of our way of life.

Logic would suggest that the Wollongong case also showed the need to ban clown costumes, Scream masks, Groucho Marx glasses and anything else which could be used to obscure one’s identity for criminal ends. But the fact that it involved burqas pressed popular buttons, as there is something about this particular form of attire which unnerves and irritates so many Australians, as is clearly the case elsewhere in the Western world.

There are only so many issues a person can get worked up about, and I’m in no hurry to add banning the burqa to my list. It seems to require a lot of angry energy, and given the miniscule number of women you ever see in this country getting around in the head-to-toe letterbox ensemble, the degree of outrage it generates eclipses the actual threat it poses to society.

But for all these occasional displays of hysteria from the ban the burqa brigade, there’s something more alarming about the hip-and-groovy stylings of those who oppose the ban out of an unquestioning commitment to multiculturalism.

If the burqa debate encourages stupid generalisations or far-fetched scenarios from conservative people, of the bombs up frocks kind, it also invites the most cloth-eared relativist nonsense from progressives who claim to champion feminist values but will come over all confused when presented with something which is about nothing other then the oppression of women.

Tony Abbott has found himself on the receiving end of some abuse over the pas couple of days for making a fairly bland and honest observation that he’s not comfortable with the burqa as a mandated form of clothing for women in this country of ours.

As with others who have dared to question this dodgy fashion item, Abbott’s remarks have been attacked as offensive to the idea of ``choice’’ and ``diversity’‘.

Surely there’s something almost comical about using those two words at in the context of the burqa debate? The burqa demonstrates diversity in the same way that not letting girls go to school or throwing rocks at female adulterers demonstrates diversity.

It demonstrates choice in the same way that arranged marriages or female circumcision demonstrate choice. It’s an inherently sexist device, the purpose of which was best evidenced by Sheik Taj Al Din Hilaly with his daft metaphorical pronouncements about the danger of ``uncovered meat’‘, a means of neutralising female sexuality while giving men an excuse for shocking behaviour in the company of unchaste, unveiled women.

It’s a difficult issue for countries such as ours because banning the burqa, and the burqa itself, are of themselves both offensive to our egalitarian, fair-go ethos. As a result it’s unlikely that there will ever be any legislation to outlaw it in this country.

The attitude of law-makers, understandably, across both sides of politics has been to offer a pretty muted opinion on the goodness or badness of the burqa, and then bat away inquiries as to whether anything should be done about it.

That’s exactly what Abbott did this week when, with a high degree of prompting during an interview, he was asked to comment about the very interesting case in Western Australia right now where defence lawyers have asked a judge to rule as to whether a female witness should be allowed to wear a full burqa when she testifies next week on a fraud case, as it will prevent the jury from seeing her facial expressions.

Abbott wasn’t hunting for a headline, he merely (and eventually) responded to the question in an honest and non-inflammatory way.

``I don’t want to interfere in the operations of our legal system but I have said it before and let me say it again, I find the burqa a particularly confronting form of attire,’’ Abbott said.

``I would very much wish that fewer Australians would choose it.’‘

For this comment Abbott was fitted up in cyberspace as a dog-whistling racist, and described on Twitter as a klansman and a redneck. A couple of the comments were at least comical. ``Abbott says burqa is `confronting’ - this from a man who waggles his nuts around in a pair of budgie smugglers’’ wrote Corinne Grant, showing a welcome level of humour. Grant was in a minority as the overwhelming reaction was to denounce Abbott as some kind of monster for saying the idea of compelling women to cover themselves head-to-toe in public was undesirable.

(Interestingly, Julia Gillard faced no similar dog-whistling accusations yesterday when she said that, as a lawyer who had spent much of her life in a courtroom with Slater and Gordon, she did not believe that witnesses in court cases should be allowed to have their faces covered at all.)

Abbott’s critics also rolled out the undergraduate comparison with the sisterhood, saying there was no difference between nuns’ habits and burqas, ignoring the small fact that nuns represent a tiny and obscure section of the female population which has embraced a life of religiosity, versus the conviction of orthodox Islamic men that the other 50 per cent of the planet should be compelled to cover up as a matter of course.

The criticisms of Abbott showed that ideological allegiance trumps common sense every time. His comments gave voice to what you would think is one of the central tenets of feminism, that women should have a right to choose, and should not have their appearance or their behaviour dictated by a bunch of rules imposed by men.

It’s just that because the words came out of Abbott’s mouth they were denounced accordingly.

Abbott’s comments were probably also an accurate expression where Australia should be on this issue _ not taking the fruitless and incendiary step of banning a piece of clothing, but being honest and up-front in saying that it’s out of step with our way of life.

The reaction to his remarks reminds us that offering that opinion is the fast track to being accused of racism, oddly enough by those who also claim to abhor sexism, except when it’s cloaked in the muddled language of choice and diversity and we’re all too pathetically squeamish to call it for what it truly is.

70 comments

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    • OckerBloke says:

      06:23am | 07/08/10

      If people walked around in clown costumes or with scream masks on that would be pretty weird too, but they don’t and there’s the difference. So applying that banning logic for those things is silly, besides look at what the garb represents. Clown=Fun.  The Burqua looks creepy, it scares my children, wearing it makes life impractical (driving,eating,communicating). Then it’s association is with hard line Muslim elements,  the extreme version of Islam, that’s scary. Then consider this, Muslims represents less than 1% of our population, but why are they in the media at least everyday on this Punch or News.com.au. And the news is rarely good, often rapes, fraud, violence. Answer that one for me?

    • Gregg says:

      11:11am | 07/08/10

      So ocker,
      Have you had one on frequently to practice the driving eating and communication?
      And have you attempted to educate your children in an open manner of course why some women choose to wear a burqua in public and of course that there may be some who could not have too great a choice about it.
      And just seeing as you are up with the news so much, there was an article just this week about criminal activity being based on concealing identity by you guessed it - face painting and costumes etc., a trend from the US!
      But your own in news claim would take some backing up I expect.

      I would not like to be wearing a burqua either and I do not like to think that women are forced to and that they are able to make a choice.
      I came across a family in a supermarket once, a mother not with face covered but head wear, a couple of younger children in normal clobber and an what I surmised from the eyes an adolescent girl in a burqua.
      Perhaps it was a family thing that of a certain age and single, there should be more concealing in public or perhaps it was the girls choice.

      Sure, it can be confronting for some as with Tony, I kind of felt some pity and it’s amazing just how much the mind can perceive from eye contact alone but there’s probably an even greater possibility of minds running amuck because of lack of understanding.

    • Barbara says:

      01:44pm | 07/08/10

      The reason it is in the news so disproportionately is because Australians find the niqab component of the burqua quite offensive given our recent (9-11) and current (Afghanistan) dealings of people of this faith, so is it little wonder there is distrust and fear in the community.  Humans, at least in the west, feel much more comfortable when they are able to read each others facial expressions so to understand whether we are communicating and being understood and to be able to read someone’s intentions.  Ever spoken to someone who is wearing very dark or mirrored sunglasses, uncomfortable isn’t it?  And given the years of oppression women have faced even in this country, a lot of people view this type of head wear as a backward step, whether voluntarily worn or not.  It is offensive to our western values, much as if we ran around places like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Turkey in tight shorts and tank top.  If we wouldn’t impose our values on these countries because of our own sensitivities, couldn’t the same be asked of people here that impose their cultural beliefs on us?  Don’t you think that’s a fair thing to ask or expect?  And if we set some ground rules instead of vagaries, wouldn’t that give clarity to people who wish to consider Australia as a future home.  I’ve never understood why people immigrate to a country that is so incompatible or offends their cultural sensibilities, unless they feel they have the chance to slowly change it.  I guess Australia is seen as a soft target.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      11:40pm | 07/08/10

      Suposedly only about 100 burqa wearing women in Oz, personally women with muffin tops offends my good taste

    • Sophie says:

      06:46am | 07/08/10

      I don’t know David. I guess the point that was attempting to be made is that people do not usually go down a street wearing clown masks, or scream masks as that would draw attention to themselves. A burqua is far more normalised. What concerns me is that it is not a religious garment but a cultural one, indeed many Muslims I have spoken to are against it for reasons that Australians are as well. The oppressive nature of the dress was highlighted to me an interview the other night in which a Muslim male said of his wife that she would never be allowed out of the house if the Burqua was banned here. And the pro-burqua’s try and convince us that is not a form of oppression? Would you try to keep your wife inside the house on the basis of clothing?

    • Ripa says:

      07:25am | 07/08/10

      ban clown costumes, Scream masks, Groucho Marx glasses, are you so thick that you would link these things to a religous one? if you walked into a bank wearing a clown costume or a scream mask, what the hell do you think the security would do to you?? i can guarantee you there would be no hesitation on the part of security to question you or tackle you or force you to remove the masks, but call it a burqa ohh everyone has to be scared, we cant hassle her, we might get sued. Have you even thought your post through? You talk about stupid generalisations well you just stated one re; the clown and groucho glasses.

    • Gabrielle says:

      02:20pm | 07/08/10

      Here you go Ripa…I just picked up your marbles…you lost them didn’t you? I found them down here next to your ill thought out rant. The burqa is also not a religious one. It is cultural.

    • Matt says:

      04:12pm | 07/08/10

      Gabrielle - go grab your own marbles.  The Burqa is completely religious…..it states in their holiest of holy books, the Koran, several times that women must cover themselves up.  The Koran 24:31, 33:59, and the Hadiths both reinforce the rule.

      The muslims that don’t do it, they are the ones that aren’t following the letter of the law as set out by their own religion. 

      I suggest you go read the info at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com and get your facts straight.

    • Steve says:

      06:29pm | 08/08/10

      Matt ... quick google on Koran 24:31 / 33:59…  it says modest, cover bosom, draw cloaks ... nowhere does it say “head to toe, I can’t see through this mail slot”.  That part is the “cultural” desert Fashion to protect women from prying eyes, because they were PROPERTY, which was later absorbed into SOME Muslims practice.

      Its a cultural, not a religious issue.  That doesn’t mean you need to be less sensitive, its just putting it in the right pigeon hole.

      Abbott doesn’t need an excuse to appear like a far right Christian nut bag, he just needs to open his mouth.  People just haven’t got to know him yet.  Wait till he’s elected and unemployment hits 10% and he cuts off the dole bludgers after 6 weeks.

    • iansand says:

      07:33am | 07/08/10

      It’s simple.  A person should be able to choose what they want to wear.  A person should not be forced to wear a particular item of clothing.

      Of course it’s not really that simple.  For some reason we accept that I cannot walk out my front door without wearing pants.

    • andromeda says:

      08:44pm | 07/08/10

      Yes you can, iansand. You could wear a skirt.

    • Andrew1 says:

      07:55am | 07/08/10

      Similar to attacking him about the “no means no” comment. Minority’s looking for anything to beat their drum about.

    • Samuel says:

      08:00am | 07/08/10

      “The criticisms of Abbott showed that ideological allegiance trumps common sense every time.”

      That is a glorious sentence and should be plastered on the walls of any political commentator in the country.

      Great piece capturing what my thoughts were when the burqa story popped up.  I particularly remember being appalled, and then pityingly amused at Marieke Hardy’s tweet where she dropped an F-bomb in Abbott’s direction over his comments.  Comments such as that completely demolish her credibility.

      This piece is a splendid rebuttal.

    • Leigh says:

      08:11am | 07/08/10

      Excellent article, though I debate your logic/sarcasm around banning clown or scream masks.  Try walking into a bank wearing a mask or helmet and your logic holds no water.  If we are not going to ban this symbol of oppression, we should at least legislate where it cannot be worn; driving a car, in a bank, or in court.
      Well done though in shining a light on the hypocrisy of those who would scream redneck and other derogatory terms for just wishing to discuss this issue.  They are hypocrites, defending a womans right to be oppressed, and I fail to understand how they can look at themselves in the mirror.

    • The Scarlet Pimpernel says:

      08:22am | 07/08/10

      I think Australians have shown themseves to be fairly flexible and accommodating of other peoples’ cultures and it would not hurt them to show some flexibility in return. Wear them at home, wear them around town if you must, but take them off in public buildings - you cannot be identified and therefore cannot be granted taxpayer-funded services otherwise. I mean - how do we know it is you? Because you say so?

    • Brett says:

      08:22am | 07/08/10

      A well written and balanced article. All Australians would agree that women should not be oppressed. The message that needs to be sent by our politicians is directly too Islamic women - you are making a ‘choice’ to where the Burqa. It is not mandatory and our society will support you 100% if you choose not to wear it, there are support groups that can assist.

    • BobM says:

      04:59pm | 07/08/10

      I disagree that all these women want to wear the burqa by choice. I have read of women here, and overseas, who are forced to wear it by their husbands because they don’t want other men looking at their wives. Some women may choose to wear it, but certainly not all.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:23am | 07/08/10

      Interesting article until para 8 , then the nonsense starts.
      Who has ” mandated” the Burqua as a form of clothing for women in this country of ours ?
      Across the board Dave ? , or just Muslim women.?
      Without that qualifier , this article falls into the “Muslims who banned Christmas ” ,” Halal food is taking over ” type rubbish, that so many trolls like to come out with.
      For every horror story about coercion, nowdays there are Muslim women who are no longer afraid to spaek up about their choice to wear the garment.
      Are they liars? Were they coerced ?Any proof they are forced to ?
      As you say Dave, the numbers are very small, so obviosly yur claim about the “mandate"just doesnt seem to be the case, does it ?
      The “I’m no bigot , but…,” type response shows the inane fear and xenophobia of the Coreys, Freds, and their sisters Pauline.
      The final para is the clincher.
      Thinking around this is muddled? Why? Is it because some Muslim women make the choice, but of course, we know better ?
      Your right Dave, why be pathetically squeamish ?
      Why not say straight out , what you truly believe it is?
      Womens rights. But NOT the right to choose for themselves. We will decide that.
      Thats correct , isnt it?

    • Keith says:

      10:14am | 07/08/10

      The Burqa is not part of Islamic culture (covering arms and legs are) The burqa was solely introduced by men (husbands & fathers) to stop anyone looking at their daughter/wife because they thought it would send them into an uncontrollable state of lust and as a sign of possession.  IF the women choose to wear the burqa it’s only becacuse they have been forced to for generations.  Point being that the burqa was not a female invention or choice in the beginning.

    • T.Chong says:

      10:44am | 07/08/10

      Keith, you claim they are forced to, because of generations past, yet i"m sure you would have seen, read, articles where the woman claims it is part of her beliefs etc.
      We are very willing to believe the stories of oppression , but seem culturally unable to accept a womans claim that she chooses. Why?
      Agree, ,its not a part of the 5 Pillars, and it is a more tribal / cultural pactice , but that wont stop the broad brush of the Muslim Bogey man being used to bring out the fears and bigottry.
      For those who argue about security, its a crock. If we were really concerned about people hiding their identity , then , hair dyes, colored contact lenses, beards, wigs, and much more would also go, as they can all change a persons appearance.
      Plastic surgery as well, I’m sure we can all recall those bizarre stories from the US security services, about Osama Bin Laden having plastic surgery to avoid capture,  so, what more proof is needed ? Ban that too !

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      11:08am | 07/08/10

      Interesting point about halal food.

      I think it should be part of mandatory labeling. This can only be good for everybody - those that only want to eat halal food and those of us who do not wish to partake of anything that has been subjected to an arcane ritual to some foreign god.

    • JohnJones says:

      11:55am | 07/08/10

      T.Chong, you must live with your head in the sand.

    • Tom says:

      12:04pm | 07/08/10

      Poor old T.Chong still missing the point. Let me walk you through the logic. .... The burqua disguises someone’s identity. ... The muggers used burquas to commit their crime and not be identified. Therefore, .... are you keeping up T.Chong? .... the police job of identying and apprehending the muggers is harder and as a result we are less safe.

      If you haven’t caught up, T.Chong, get someone to explain it to you. Anyone over three years old should be able to do the job.

    • BobM says:

      05:10pm | 07/08/10

      T Chong, if a woman’s husband says that she must wear the burqa, she is certainly going to say that she is wearing it by choice. Despite your lofty pronouncements, some muslim women here are as scared of their husbands as back in their old countries. And sure, you can say she should go to the police if she is threatened, but would she?  What we need to get rid of here in Australia, is the notion that the husband/father/brother has more rights than wife/daughter/sister. Then, if a woman wants to wear a full burqa, it really is her choice - but why would she?  (Apart from a bad hair day).

    • Tarzan says:

      05:26pm | 07/08/10

      Ohh T Chong, how can you really argue a beard, contacts and wigs are the same as a full face covering like a Burqua. Those words: bigotry tarred with the same brush, ban this too, you gotta be a public servant or life long student on welfare.

    • thatmosis says:

      08:25am | 07/08/10

      If I were to go into a Bank or Public Building with a Crash helmet on I would be told to either remove it or be arrested. If a woman goes into these same establishments in a Burqua then its okay.  If I were to put a paper bag on my head and cut a slit in it for my eyes and drive my car I would be pulled up and probably given a ticket but a woman in a Burqua would be let go? If I entered a bank with a long coat and a hoody that covered my face the security guards would either make me remove my hoody or they would have their hands on their guns in case but a woman in a Burqua ia okay? If I go for a Licence with a mask on I would have to remove it to have my photo taken but a woman with a Burqua is okay? This just shows how ridiculous the so called laws are. One law for all as this Burqua is not a religious item but a social custom of a repressive thought process that is forced upon woman whether they like it or not. What Crap.

    • BuddhaBelly says:

      08:30am | 07/08/10

      For me, the Burqua represents terrorism the same as the white hooded uniform of the KKK represents racism. I hate both.

    • Sherekahn says:

      10:04am | 07/08/10

      Indeed!  If you can’t see into their eyes, you cannot see into their souls.  That goes for all creatures on EARTH!
      It is the way all creatures suss out danger.

    • Patrick says:

      11:09am | 07/08/10

      Sherekahn in case you hadn’t realised, the burqa does not in fact cover the eyes of the wearer. Eyes are a useful feature for general perambulation, and one would think the Muslim community would be in a bit more disarray if all their women were blind whenever out in public.

      And BuddhaBelly, the intolerant comments of my fellow countrymen represent the declining moral attitude of this country just the same as the Southern Cross or “F%^& Off, We’re Full” tattoos / T-shirts represents the reason. I dislike all three.

    • The Scarlet Pimpernel says:

      02:53pm | 07/08/10

      Patrick - yes, it does. The niqab leaves a slit for the eyes, the burqa has a mesh so the wearer can see out but none can see in.

      You cannot see the eyes; you cannot judge the expression.

    • Patrick says:

      09:04am | 07/08/10

      I thought the burqa was not the full - face and body cover,it’s the niqab which is the supposedly offensive face-veil.

      It really is a touchy issue though, because in a lot of islamic translations about the necessity of the niqab, there are grey areas, it was never written in the Qu’ran that women must wear a complete face veil, but it is a cultural tradition stemming from the time of the Prophet Muhammed.

      “When a sister is already covering everything but her face and her hands, and she would like to do something extra to seek the love of Allah SWT, the only things left for her to cover are - her face and her hands!

      Even if there were no other reason to wear niqab, surely this would be enough! How can it be “extreme” to wear niqab or gloves when her face and her hands are the only things the Muslim sister has uncovered in public to begin with??” - http://www.muhajabah.com/whyniqab.htm

      I notice a lot of quotes from Islamic scholars denouncing the niqab as unnecessary, that it has been forced upon Islam since the emergence of the extremists in the past 50-60 years. The niqab is mentioned by these people as being an extra way to seek Allah’s favour, stepping above and beyond the necessary steps outlined in the Qu’ran.

      I do hope Australia doesn’t follow the French and ban the niqab / hijab though, as that does go against the fair-go ethos which is hopefully still prevalent in this country, but I think Joolya’s got a point about witnesses in court cases needing their faces seen.

    • Matt says:

      02:07pm | 07/08/10

      Burqa is full body-tent and letterbox getup, Niqab is the face veil. Most muslim women just wear the hijab or standard head scarf that does not cover the face.

      In this debate though I think it’s worth noting that both Turkey and Tunisia, two majority muslim nations have banned the hijab.

    • Steve_of_Cornubia says:

      09:10am | 07/08/10

      Hey, you almost managed to write a piece about Abbott without mentioning budgie smugglers! Ah well, maybe next time you will resist the temptation to diminish our Opposition Leader, though I doubt it.

      Anyways, the gist of the article is good.

      Because I am not a politician or public figure, I’m allowed to say it differently and observe less the demands of PC.

      You not-so-cleverly tried to dimiss comments from truly worried people (before any comments had even been made!) by pre-categorising them as “stupid generalisations or far-fetched scenarios from conservative people, of the bombs up frocks kind…”, rather like the Climate Warrior Class who pretend they want a debate but first state that anybody who doesn’t ‘believe’ is a denialist.

      But I’m going to comment anyway wink

      The old ‘Let’s not fuss about things that happen rarely’ argument doesn’t stand up. We coud place child pornography in the same basket - the overwhelming majority of us don’t do it, but we have laws against it anyway, because it is not acceptable in ANY degree.

      Likewise, though the chances of my being blown up by a burqa-wearing bomber are remote, I nevertheless think it should be banned in public. I’m quite happy to accept that it is the right of Iran and other muslim states to make their own laws, but here in Australia we should make our own.

      I am not allowed to walk into a servo after buying petrol for my motorbike, so a non-racist, non-discriminatory ‘security’ precedent is there, IMO.

    • Dingo says:

      09:16am | 07/08/10

      I think the Burqa is symbolic of the basic incompatibility of Islam and western culture.

    • Ruxxy says:

      04:26pm | 07/08/10

      I agree Dingo- and I’m sick of the apologists who try to turn the criticism onto me by calling me names because I see huge trouble ahead for us as a society unless we wake up and start saying no to having our culture compromised.

    • Sherekahn says:

      10:33am | 08/08/10

      Absolutely, however Western culture is always developing while Islam seems to wish to go backward.
      Perhaps the real culprits here are the Christians, they went marauding peoples souls all over the world.
      It is time to ban all religious symbolism on the street and certainly in all Politics.
      For goodness sake, this is a new century!  Richard Dawkins is the most sensible ‘theologian’ on the planet, but he does not agree with me as I worship Nature!  What a wonderful world it could be if, all religions threw out their doctrines and worshipped Nature instead.
      Then inter-religious wars would make more sense, such as attacking the religions who are allowing the degradation of the world’s Flora and Fauna.  Orang-utans in Indonesia comes to mind.

    • John C says:

      09:41am | 07/08/10

      I don’t really care what people wear and if a woman wants to wear a burqua - emphasis on the word ‘want’’ - good luck to her.

      What tends to irritate me however is the sight of a man striding along in the expensive designer jeans and sunnies, followed by the woman, enclosed head to toe in some dreary garb, then the son, similarly attired to the father, then the poor little girl, drably bringing up the rear.

      If this is a matter of free choice for the females, fine. If it is case of the patriarch decreeing that his women dress like 7th Century nomads, then he should do the same.

      Democracy means everyone, male and female, having the choice of how they look and what they wear,

    • sam says:

      10:33am | 09/08/10

      i once saw a woman skiing in her burqa while her hubby and son swooshed by in the latest ski gear. it would have been tragic if it wasn’t so hilarious…

    • Roberta J says:

      09:43am | 07/08/10

      In some ways I find this screaming for the burqa ban amazing. Australian women run around half naked at beaches and anywhere else they feel like it and not a word is said. But stick a bag on a woman’s head and cover her body and it seem to attract all kinds of criticism. I am not a Muslim and I think they burqa is a very unattractive garment but if women feel comfortable in it why does it matter? I can understand the robbery aspect but I think we may be using it as an excuse. Many robberies are committed all over the world by the people not wearing them. I think the trick is to try to find a way to stop crime

    • Barbara says:

      01:20pm | 07/08/10

      You really don’t get it do you Roberta.  Would those same women be able to do that in public or on the beach in say Saudi Arabia or Iran?  Of course not because it is culturally offensive and in most cases against their law.  So what is so wrong with finding it culturally offensive in this country for women to be covered up in such a manner whether forced or voluntarily.  If someone’s actions impacts on other peoples sensibilities or beliefs then that act could be deemed intrusive and possibly offensive, are we supposed to just put up with it when it falls outside the normal practices of our western society and our values.  No different than your bikini clad barefoot women entering a restaurant in the CBD, it’s not acceptable.  The niqab is an introduced cultural face covering, not one born out of our own culture.  It is more than fair for people to comment on and criticise things that impact our way of life.  The more we let other cultures impose their beliefs in this country and the more people feel they can no longer debate or discuss these issues then the more animosity, distrust and hate begin to take root.  The more inaction of our elected representatives to address this problem the more likely things will come to a boil.  A case in point was the Cronulla race riots where the Government tried to pass it off as an act by a drunken mob, which was certainly the spark.  But the root cause was the inaction by the State Police and State Government to deal with the growing social problems because they were too scared to deal with it lest they be painted as racist.  So please Roberta, allow people to discuss this in an open and frank manner and maybe just maybe both sides of the argument will come to their own solution to the problem.  Don’t try and silence people’s views.  That may be acceptable in some Middle Eastern countries but not here in Australia.

    • 6c legs says:

      02:20pm | 07/08/10

      plus one.


      Did someone this weekend rob a bank while wearing a burqa, that i haven’t heard about?
      If not, then i’m having trouble seeing the relevence of the story - other than for Punches editor to practice his whistling… :(

    • Roberta J says:

      03:21pm | 07/08/10

      Barbara Why would you assume I am stopping this debate or trying to silence anyone? I thought this was an opinions page and we were all entitled to our opinion. I would hate Australia to develop into a racist country where others cultures are not respected but I don’t know it all and Barbara either do you!!

    • Gregg says:

      03:36pm | 07/08/10

      I dunno Barbara, I think Roberta very much gets it and yet you say
      ” So what is so wrong with finding it culturally offensive in this country for women to be covered up in such a manner whether forced or voluntarily. “
      So someone wearing what they voluntarily want to wear is culturally offensive in this country is it?
      And yet you claim you would like some debate and whereas all Roberta has basically said is that she finds the seeking of a ban a bit amazing, you’ve gone with a real rant on how offensive it is etc.

      Does not having a debate indicate a freedom to discuss and do we not have a freedom in our country to wear what we like?
      You see many people covering themselves in all sorts of garb and a youth in a hoodie with sunnies is pretty hard to identify with for some too, especially when it is the uniform of gangs.

      As part of the debate, I’ll say that it may be offensive to you and a whole lot more people but there are others with more open minds.

    • iansand says:

      03:46pm | 07/08/10

      Barbara - It seems odd to want to follow a repressive country like Saudi Arabia and introduce restrictions on what we can wear.  Saudi Arabia is not a very tolerant society.  I used to think that our society was.

    • Super D says:

      09:50am | 07/08/10

      Isn’t it amazing that all of those amongst us who are looking to be outraged by Tony Abbott find themselves outraged by Tony Abbott.  Tony simply remarked that he finds the burqa confronting and wished less Australians would choose to wear it.  I guess if you have a problem with this remark you either don’t find the burqa confronting or you believe that more Australians should wear it.  If not any offense you take is simply contrived based on your political dispositions.  Take the “no means no” nonsense as a further example..

    • Bruce says:

      12:54pm | 07/08/10

      Super D. Agree. The ‘no means no’ nonsense was unbelieveable. What next ! The fact that someone has made an issue out of it, means for me that their are some very small minded dumb people in society that will examine every word someone speaks to find a hidden meaning so as to be outraged. These people need to carefull what they wish for, closer examination may mean ‘they’ have said something so obscure that could be found by some to be offesive to them.

    • Jon says:

      10:19am | 07/08/10

      How Secular Western Society handles the Burqka debate, is the test on how we deal with Islamists and their agendas. The libertarians, apologists, and Islamists use the same arguments but think they are going to get different outcomes. One of them is going be very disappointed in the future. They do make strangle bedfellows, but the result is the same, to shut down debate. They all use similar tactics such as playing the racist card when every possible, harping on western guilt for perceived sins of the past and lack of tolerance or respect for culture and religion. Salmon Rushdie stated recently the media of treatment of Islam is “Cowardice masquerading as respect…” As you see it see time and time again in the media, politics and the mainstream blogosphere.

      Respect is being used as an excuse to allow our freedoms to be trampled by those whose agenda is to substitute our freedoms for totalitarianism, it should come as no surprise few people are bothered if they are accused of lacking respect. Some of the brave stand outs in this debate are very brave Taslima Nasrin and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, as well small number of secular Muslims who make a lot more sense than all those who masquerade as the political and intellectual elites in Australia. Most of whom are bogged down in the mental quagmire of cultural relativism.

      Secular society should have zero tolerance for religions behaving badly and hold them to accountant against universal human rights. That means no respect for Sharia Law, cultural practice or any religious law that does not measure up to the universal standards of human rights. Everyone has the right to Freedom from Religion, especially in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

    • Adam Diver says:

      12:12pm | 07/08/10

      Penbo, that is the best and most balanced piece I have yet read on the punch. You articulated the situation perfectly, credit where credit is due.

      The issue is:

      Are we multicultural if we ban the burqa? No
      Are we allowing choice if people want to wear the burqa? Yes
      Should we support the burqa as a oppresive dress attire? No

      To be honest I think we have got this pretty right.

      In certain situations (court room) it is not appropriate in any circumstances. A small price to pay to live in a country with our freedoms.

      You can still wear it because we do not want to remove peoples freedoms of choice so if it is important to you than you can still wear it without prosecution.

      We actively discourage it, because it does not fit in well with our society. Whilst we still let you wear it, being your choice, we hope that you would remove a barrier between you and the greater society, and also a symbol of oppression of women.

      I like it Penbo I really do. But assuming everyone agrees with my above point, should we let women who will wear the burqa immigrate into this nation? Personally I would rather someone who would be more socially acceptable, i.e does not create a barrier between themselves and everyone else by default. I also think we should cherry pick immigrants, similar to businesses choosing the best candidates, is this already the case?

    • Richard says:

      02:44pm | 08/08/10

      I totally agree with you on all points Adam. It is not the role of the government to go around banning pieces of clothing, but as a society I do believe we should stand up for the liberalisation of women.

      I also agree with your point about immigration, that there are many people in the wider world who would add value to the diversity and cohesiveness of our society, but there are also a few who might not, and we can exercise our collective discretion in this regard.

    • Matt says:

      02:02pm | 07/08/10

      There’s a simple solution to this entire debate - remove the word burqa entirely. People should be allowed to choose what they wear however it should be entirely illegal to cover ones face in court, in a bank and if you do wear a face covering you must remove it if requested to by the owner of private premises (service stations, shops) or by police.

      Aside from that, wear whatever the hell you want.

    • Dawson says:

      03:12pm | 07/08/10

      ... mm. I don’t quite know what to say about this article.

      I disagree, wholeheartedly. And I think that you’ve made a few stereotype-based assumptions. Sorry to throw the racism bomb but basing your arguments on stereotypes of a religion is racism.

      Major dislike.

    • The Scarlet Pimpernel says:

      05:12pm | 07/08/10

      Islam is not a race. Please enlighten us - which race was the subject of his racism?

    • TerryWright says:

      05:27pm | 07/08/10

      What about the hypocrisy from Fred Nile?

      Because he has a right to religious freedom, he is arguing that Muslim women should not have the same freedom and not be allowed to wear what they feel their religion requires of them.

      Why does this not surprise me.

      Will someone tell Fed Nile and his band of evangelical fundamentalists that religious freedom isn’t just for Christians.

    • AliceC says:

      10:37am | 09/08/10

      @TerryWright

      Brilliant!!! What’s good for Christians is good for everyone else.

      I don’t agree with anything he says, but I defend his right to say it.

    • Eirinn says:

      05:35pm | 07/08/10

      As a feminist I wholeheartedly support Penberthy’s stance.

      First, a burqa ban is not a relevant Australian election issue, but rather a raking around the bottom of the barrel of populist politicking, in a country where very few women wear the item. I’d rather hear more about the issues that impact the majority of Australians—economic policy, healthcare policy, education and the like that have been glossed over during this campaign.

      Aside from the federal election though, the burqa is nothing but an instrument of oppression that nullifies a woman’s identity and dignity. Feminists believe in freedom of choice, and I agree it’s possible a woman may freely choose to wear the burqa, but I’m less satisfied that her orthodox community can prove that she is free to not wear it.

    • Karen B. says:

      05:54pm | 07/08/10

      How would we feel if the bank teller wore a full face veil, or the supermarket checkout operative? Or the teacher at our child’s school, because this is not just about walking down the street dressed like this. Unless employers are a lot more accepting than I suspect they are then there is little freedom indeed afforded to these women by allowing it, and who restricted their freedom to be who they are in the first place?

    • Gregg says:

      12:49pm | 08/08/10

      How would you feel Karen if you wanted to wear one but it was forbidden?
      If I was in any situation where I was communicating with a woman wearing a burqua [ as unlikely as that may be in our society ] , I would say OK, that is her right and it would be the outcome I was interested in and not what she was wearing.

    • RickyB says:

      06:55pm | 07/08/10

      The burqa represents everything that is wrong with a deceiteful, troublemaking & divisive minority & has no place in a free western country like Australia.Muslims in this country would love to trample our culture & separate themselves, this is just one more example of why they are often seen with such loathing & distrust.

    • Fran sa says:

      06:55pm | 07/08/10

      I can’t believe it! I am Catholic but I find it difficult to understand some Christian and other non-Muslim Talibans.
      In my job I met quite a number of very subservient Aussie wives, and quite a number of ‘battered’ Aussie mothers in women’s shelters. Some’ Western’ women in Australia are not allowed to wear wigs or put a make up on.
      It also amazes me how many non-Muslim would quote the Koran.
      Can we find some experts on the Bible and learn something from our Holy Script about gay relationships and adultery?
      I would expect Tony Abbot helped us with religious advice on the subject.
      As for the ‘Western culture’:  I have some doubts if ‘looking straight into someone’s eyes’ is a proof of honesty. In many countries in Europe staring at someone’s face is a sign of audacity and is regarded as very confronting and may be intimidating. Anglo-Saxon culture is not the only “Western culture”.

    • Matt says:

      08:53pm | 07/08/10

      The theo-political doctrine of Islam:

      1. Commands the attainment of political goals as religious duty.

      2. Is codified in sharia law - which demands the replacement of all man-made law (including our Constitution) with “divine” sharia.

      3. Invites conversion, enforces subjugation or engages in war to achieve its objectives.

      4. Allows for all manner of deception to advance its objectives.

      So, Islam is not solely a religion (1); its tenets invariably lead to sedition and insurrection (2); it violates nearly every aspect of our Constitution, culture and traditions (3); and makes it nearly impossible to distinguish good (= orthodox and jihad-minded) and bad (muslim in name only) practitioners (4).

      Therefore, the theo-political doctrine of Islam must be expunged from every Western nation and held at bay with hot and cold war until it ceases to be a threat to our forms of governance, our cultures, our institutions and futures. It really is as simple as an analysis of the Islamic Trilogy: Quran, Sira & Hadith.

    • stephen says:

      09:52am | 08/08/10

      There are different kinds of Islamists, as there are different kinds of Christians.
      It’s fundamentalism we all have to be wary of, and varieties of thinking and feeling in this country should be welcomed. We’re strong, arn’t we, and we can handle it, can’t we ?
      You have given us a vision of the future with you synopsis. Unfortunately, our only notion of what is to come, comes not from science, but science-fiction.
      People don’t think as you suggest.
      The borg do.

    • Kathy says:

      11:00pm | 07/08/10

      There is no need to “ban the burqua”.  I think women should be able to wear it whenever they like.  However,  my husband does not expect to be able to walk into a shop or bank with his motorbike helmet on.  Even if there are no security staff present, it would be highly confronting for shop/bank staff, some of whom may have endured holdups.  Therefore in the same spirit of being considerate & open, a woman in a burqua should need to uncover her face in these situations. Good balanced article David.

    • Julie Coker-Godson says:

      11:28pm | 07/08/10

      I don’t like the burqa because of what it represents - oppression, slavery and brutality towards women.  Recently The Times published a graphic photograph on its front cover of an 18 year old girl who had had her nose sliced entirely off showing gaping holes where her nasal passages had been.  Not seen in the photograph but included in the story was the fact that she also had both of her ears sliced off.  This was done by her husband as she was held down by her brother-in-law.  Her offence:  running away from her violently abusive husband.  In the country concerned and under Sharia Law relatives of the husband’s family are allowed to join in this “chastisement” (for want of a better word/if that is what you would call it).  We in Australia would call it assault and battery causing grievous bodily harm.  But these men don’t see things that way.

      Another story comes from the UK and is disturbing in that it warns of the consequences of not paying attention to who comes into your country and why.  The story is written by a Muslim woman herself and concerns the Talibanisation of British children by hardline parents. 

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1300449/The-Talibanisation-British-childhood-hardline-parents.html

      Now the question I put to my fellow punchers is this:  Are these the sorts of people you want in our country?  There has already been a report in our papers I believe of a Imam wanting Sharia Law in Australia and they are asking for it in England so that the men can prevent access to the protection that would be given their wives and daughters under our laws and the English law too.  You don’t have to be Einstein, nor is one a racist to realise what would happen if Sharia Law was introduced into either country.  It would be a disaster for women, no…I go further and say it would be a *criminal* disaster for the wellbeing of those women.

      Personally, I find the burqa offensive in my country and there is nothing that will ever change my mind about that.  I also have to wonder at the attitude of the men if they think that anyone who looks at their women is going to be overcome by lust.  They clearly have self esteem issues and are possessive to the enth degree.  I don’t want such an inherently violent clash of cultures in my country .  Nor do I want to see Australia have to endure what the UK is going through now.

    • stephen says:

      04:48pm | 08/08/10

      If you trust Democracy (and i’ve read your stuff, and i think you do), then it is not only a thing of money, but it has the power to change things.
      The Americans, and us, are right. We should all have a say, and our involvement on overseas developments will promote this.
      Old and imperative cultures will not survive otherwise.

    • Ryan says:

      09:20am | 08/08/10

      What is obvious is that this minority seem intent on offending 98% of the rest of the population by wearing a garment that might as well be a t-shirt that says “I hate you and everything you stand for, oh and you country too, I am just here for the free money”.
      It is offensive, if this is somehting politicians don’t want to touch, put it out to the public for a referendum.. I think you know what the result will be !

    • AliceC says:

      10:53am | 09/08/10

      @Ryan,

      Are you serious? The burqa is equivalent to dole bludging? I know quite a few caucasian Australians that should wear the burqa then….

      I though Australia was based on freedom and understanding, not making uneducated comments based on fear, Have you ever spoken to a Muslim, or a woman wearing a burqa in your life?

    • Ree says:

      07:28pm | 08/08/10

      The Catholic church rules out birth control and abortion for the women in their church. Another bunch of men making decision for half of the women in the world.

      These men do not have medical degrees or a personal insight into each and every case where birth control and family planning decisions are concerned and no one is jumping up and down about this “choice” enforced by a bunch of men.

      These same people would seek to force their beliefs onto the rest of the non catholic population as well.

      I don’t see how Islam is any different to any other religion that tries to influence politics and the law in this country and as far as I am aware there are far more practicising catholics in this country than there are Muslims and for that matter Burqa wearing Muslims.

      Maybe we should be afraid of all religious people who seek to influence others to there point of view rather than just the ones who stand out in a crowd.

    • AliceC says:

      10:57am | 09/08/10

      @Ree

      I agree with you. So it’s OK for Catholicism to limit a woman’s choice about their reproductive system?

      The different in Australia, is that we clal have a choice to follow religion or not (as per our Constitution). I don’t agree with any religion personally, and that’s my choice.

    • Sean says:

      11:36pm | 08/08/10

      Can I wear a balaclava if I go to court as a juror, witness or defendant? There nothing in the Koran about a devout Mulsim having to wear a Burqa. Go to Indonesia and see over 100 million Muslim woman not wearing it

    • Stewart Henstock says:

      06:33am | 09/08/10

      So David what’s supposed to be our way of life?
      Maybe we should be afraid of people like you who want to restrict and define how people should look and live.
      As for Rrrr…Abbotts comment….politically ...DUMB….leaving himself exposed to criticism like that…..the guy wouldn’t get past 1st base in a US election.

 

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