Race profiles a blunted tool in fight against enemy within

Eric says:

09:18am | 04/08/09

The fact that all the suspects were Somali or Lebanese Muslims somehow discredits profiling? You have it exactly backwards.

Grant says:

09:23am | 04/08/09

Settle down buddy… We haven’t even heard the results from the investigation yet, so why don’t we wait for factual information before you stereotype others..  hypocritical much..?

and to the bombings in Indonesia, you say ““Whatever,” was our reaction.” People were critically injured and killed there, whats wrong with you?

Roger says:

09:40am | 04/08/09

Profiling (used legitimately by authorised agencies) as a tool to counter terrorism- why not. Preventative measures also need to be taken by using such tools in immigration policy/ quotas.

Eric says:

09:41am | 04/08/09

Clearly “appearance” by which I take it you mean ethnicity, is an important factor. The vast majority of terrorists are still of Middle-Eastern or African extraction, despite the existence of exceptions.

However, a much more reliable indicator appears to be religious and political belief.

Ignoring these factors would be detrimental to efforts to prevent terrorism.

Grant says:

09:41am | 04/08/09

There seems to be a religious overtone slowly creeping in to the punch, this is concerning…

Paul says:

09:42am | 04/08/09

This is not so much a racial issue, as it is a religious one. Nothing else can inspire this type of insanity, quite like religious faith.

Kevin says:

09:46am | 04/08/09

I agree with Eric 0918. Your wrong. Its been reported they were of Somali & Lebanese decent.  Therefore the profile ‘generally’ fits. Profiling is after all a ‘generalisation’. Something the leftwing PC crowd find unacceptable as it does not fit their world view. These people were not of Eskimo or Swedish descent.

Andrew says:

09:50am | 04/08/09

0/10 for logic! Profiling works on patterns not just nationality or appearance. In the Australian case it worked perfectly - all were radicalised Muslims.

Every single terrorist you mention was a Muslim. Indonesia and Pakistan are the two most populous Muslim populations. Lebanese people are of “Middle Eastern Appearance”

AM says:

09:52am | 04/08/09

Finally someone with open eyes.  Terrorist come in all colours, shapes, sizes etc etc.  Profiling was flawed to begin with cos it merely gave them a way around to be able to continue their plans.  Though I have to say we must have got the dumb ones here or we must be the training ground for new recruits cos which idiot would try attacking a military base?? I mean come on, army barracks, surely if they are that stupid we can catch em, as we have and we shouldn’t be too concerned cos we are obviously more intelligent than these folk…..truly so obviously insanely dumb to pick barracks as a target.

Jim says:

09:56am | 04/08/09

It is time for the Federal Police to start investigating those behind this and other plots, and to arrest and deport all of those mouth-pieces of the Jihadist movement in Australia who are calling for violence and who are recruiting young muslims to carry out blood-baths in their name. Now is not the time for political correctness, as these Jihadist Imams are only interested in one thing, and that is an Australia under the rule of Sharia Law.

iansand says:

09:57am | 04/08/09

Did any of them attend a madrassa?

Michael says:

09:58am | 04/08/09

The intercepted Telephone call, who exactly did that, apparently it was the “first” the authorities knew of the plan, now good work and all, but are all phone calls being monitored, or was this mass electronic profiling?

Ninad says:

10:10am | 04/08/09

This article is stupid. Just because there are few anglo-australian terrorists doesn’t change the statistics. There is more probability of the terrorists being muslim and of a specific nationality. The cops and security agencies do not have the resources to check each and every one. They use probability and hunch to search. I am myself an Indian and get stopped at the airport quite often. I am fine with that..i would feel insecure about flying if they do not stop me…i would prefer racial profiling rather than blowing up into pieces thank you very much.

Bluey says:

10:17am | 04/08/09

Profiling is a waste of time, is it? Well then, perhaps you should suggest that our counter terrorist agencies start focusing on all those Buddhist suicide bombers, those damn Baha’i gang rapists and those pesky Amish IED makers. Wake up to yourself Paul, this about Islamofascism. Pure and simple. Jihad is not an English word, is it?

M says:

10:20am | 04/08/09

considering prior raids and charges i think i will wait to see what real evidence they have against these guys. Maybe they were just planing to join up with the ADF ??

Grumpy says:

10:36am | 04/08/09

Is anyone else out there getting heartily sick of people who use their stupid, irrational superstition (of whatever flavour) to either slaughter or enslave us??  In the first group we have militant Islam which is happy to murder as many people as it takes to establish a global Caliphate, with universal Sharia law.  Then in the other group, we have miltant Christianity, seeking to “re-demonise” homosexuality, deny women control over their own bodies, and re-impose repressed Victorian-era prudery.  Sickening.  And sad, given the real benefits both belief systems have deliverted in past centuries.

Caleb says:

11:05am | 04/08/09

I still don’t like the focus here and in other media on these terrorists supposed religion. They may claim to be Muslim but they cannot be while undertaking these plans and actions.
If we focus on the fact that they are terrorists and don’t allow them this feeble attempt to excuse their actions through religion, then we can show the proper respect to all true followers of Islam.

FYI: I am a third generation Australian, raised as a Christian, who won’t accept what is thrown at me in the media without thinking it through.

jim of oz says:

11:05am | 04/08/09

Regarding AM’s comments , They were not dumb, It was a suicide mission so thye don’t care about getting caught and although its a miliatary base they still could have slaughtered large numbers of people becasue most of the firearms would be locked up and the soldiers there unarmed and defenceless.

D says:

11:08am | 04/08/09

Hmmm.  Good work, apparently, done by the people charged with protecting us.  Now let’s wait and see what the judicial system does with their results and then make informed comments.
One thing that does worry me, with what I’ve heard and read so far this morning, is the possibility that The Australian released onto the streets, details of this operation despite requests to not do so until it was achieved.  Isn’t this one of the papers so keen to lambast the agencies involved in the way they carried out previous anti-terrorist operations ?  If true - how about helping and not hindering in these events, people, for all our sakes.

Faye says:

11:10am | 04/08/09

Grumpy - What about countries that seek to use their ‘stupid, irrational fervency’ of democracy to oppress, attack and occupy non-democratic countries - seeking to ‘demonise’ any form of governance not adhering to the wonderful example of democracy upheld by hypocritical Western countries, deny local vote of how they want their government to function and resources to be used (instead of being pumped to the occupier’s country for profits) and re-impose puppet governments they call ‘democracies’ the country had spent hundreds of years trying to eradicate?
Sad, given the real benefits the form of governance has with skyrocketing national debt, crumbling infrastructure, plummeting economy and a nation full of brainwashed, ignorant people.
You can’t taint everything with a wide brush.
Religion has brought wonderful things to mankind but as with all excesses - if you use and abuse you can turn anything into a monstrosity.
Islam and Christianity can be very moderate and peaceful but when practiced with the aim of political dissension as with any religion (Political Buddhism, Hinduism, etc) it can become a tool of violence and brainwashing.
Living in Australia you should be the first to jump up and want to protect Australians right to peace, compassion and freedom - that includes religion.
Minus the militant ones.
It is the “i’m sick of so-and-so” which causes the problems of populations turning violent wanting to ‘get rid’ of what they are ‘sick of’ - for example, Muslims in Egypt ‘sick of’ Christians in Egypt and systematically discriminate and abuse them.

Aisha says:

11:21am | 04/08/09

Islam is not an ethnic group, nor a ‘race’ of people. Islam is an ideology, and there are muslims of ALL colors, ethnic groups and countries. So “RACIAL profiling’ is a redundancy.

Henk-2 says:

11:32am | 04/08/09

Are those people innocent til found guilty?
Terrorists?

Red Herring says:

11:32am | 04/08/09

Except that they are all Muslims, the plot was uncovered because intelligence services monitored a Mosque and thought what one worshipper said one day sounding a little extreme, so they profiled him, tapped his phone, and many months later, uncovered a terrorist plot…

Tell me, it is “profiling” to have intelligence services constantly spying on Mosques? Is it “profiling” for them to spy on any Muslim who says (and only says) something extreme, even in the privacy of their place of worship?

Because only by doing those things were we saved from this terrorist attack. You may not be able to profile a terrorist by race, but you can by the shahada, and one would have to be living under a rock not to know that Islam is a religion whose adherents come from all races. Here profiling of Mosques and Muslims expressing sympathy with Islamic violence worked and lives were saved because of it.

Your article is incredibly misleading to suggest that profiling has somehow been discredited by putting forward this red herring of racial profiling. Rather religious profiling has now been proven correct, successful, and a life saver, if it even needed more evidence beyond what anybody else would know as common sense.

Andrew M says:

11:32am | 04/08/09

Islam is the common factor to all those terrorist groups.  You almost don’t need to nominate this anymore when a terrorist group is arrested - it’s assumed that it’ll be muslims.  You really do have to wonder if there is such a person as a moderate muslim, as they don’t seem to be doing much to stamp out these murderous individuals.  Perhaps the radicals are truer to the roots of islam, and the “moderates” have compromised from the tenets of Islam.

Frankly, the counter-terrorist groups would be idiots if they stopped profiling islamic groups, as they continue to be the seed-beds of the current threats to our society

Noongar western Australia says:

11:44am | 04/08/09

I thought they had cracked a terrorist group. who actually brought their race into it? oh it was colgan himself…  he doth protest to much..Its very much like those people who say Oh Im not racist i have friends who are (insert an ethnic minority here).....I often wonder when i Attend enviromental meeting and there are groups of hippie like refugee advocate types why they have a compelling urge to come up to me and say They love a Aboriginal people and in fact have many Aboriginal friends ..its actually nice to get away from these people who continually flagellate themselves and apologise for the perceived sins of everyone else and refreshing to work amongst the silent majority of Australians who simply say Hi to you treat you everyone else standing around black brindle or white.
But back to the point Congratulations to The AFP Victorian Police ASIO and other agencies and public involved in Thwarting an unspeakable act on our nation and on innocent people

lwp says:

11:51am | 04/08/09

Aisha is correct, it’s religon not ethnicity. In each of the countries that these people have links it is extremist groups fighting their own country men of the same ethnicity but of moderate or secular religious leanings. To profile by ethnicity also puts suspicion on the ery people who are in the same fight as we are.

Tahir says:

12:08pm | 04/08/09

Grumpy, I can comments as far as Caliphate system is concerned as I have read its history that it delivered until it was more aligned with best Islamic ideological practices/guidelines such as tolerance, respect, equality, justice and search for knowledge. This system did not create theocratic societies and laws were developed to cater for human rights protection rather than for oppression of masses. Also there was no universal sharia law and there has never been “one sharia law”. Islam provides progressive ideology for those who care to read and practice its tenants.

In my opinion the term, “militant Islam”, used in The Australian report and quoted Paul Colgan, is unjustified and based on ignorance. As the reports indicated that the motive of the suspected terrorists was to hurt Australia for its support for overthrowing a political government in Somalia by the US backed Ethiopian army. No matter what were the practices of that Somali government were, Australia should not have supported US designs in Somalia as they had never threaten Australia . And that’s why there was no motive for grievance of this nature. 

But now we must handle this situation with full legal diligence. Media need to avoid propaganda based on race, ethnicity and religious belief. Also, now that our soldiers are coming back home from previously known as “U.S’s War on Terror”, and now “local Insurgencies”, we should get more loyal and caring towards our migrant societies and their real issues and continue working on Integration program.

Grant says:

12:17pm | 04/08/09

Aisha it right. I should be in ( Australia anyway)be able to speak out against Islam with out being a called a racist. If an ideolgy is true it should expect critisim, this includes Christainity, Catholism, Hindu and Muslism.

Grumpy says:

12:23pm | 04/08/09

Hi, Faye.  Yes, I think you have a point on the “militant democracy” issue.  The West, especially more recently in its dotage, does not have a proud record and has virtually never lived up to its public utterances on the self-determination issue.  I tend to see these things in memetic terms and the problem with the three desert monotheisms especially is that they come inextricably linked with a “proselytising module” (either peacefully or by force) and an “evil apostasy module” (ref: Aaron Lynch).  While I do acknowledge the Alhambra, the Sistine Chapel, St Peter’s Basilica and the beauty of the Holy Koran in the original Arabic script, the fact remains that religionists inherently see unbelievers as a lower form of life.  Even in their moderate forms they can’t seem to apply an attitude of “well we all have our own opinions, don’t we?”  No, if they can’t convert us, all too often they’ll settle for imposing their religions rules upon us - the anti-abortion movement, the anti-pornography wowsers, the “True Live Waits’ people… the list goes on.  That’s my problem with religion, Faye.  It’s a continuum, and there is no DSM 4R to distinguish a moderate belief which should be defended as you say, and a dangerous and insiduious Thought Contagion?  A tough one.

Angus says:

12:44pm | 04/08/09

There is a common denominator with these alleged terrorists - ideology. These people are not driven by race but by ideology. It is that ideology that is extreme and exhorts its followers to perform violent acts. We need to address the root of the hatred.

Erik @ Sydney says:

01:01pm | 04/08/09

Let’s look at some facts here:

Almost all domestic terrorist charges in Australia and USA have been either completely orchestrated by a paid informant working for the government OR completely fabricated by the prosecution and completely failed in court. Some of these cases ended in a plea bargain as the defendants didn’t have the resources to defend themselves.

No doubt this case will be something very similar.

THE AGENDA here is to convince you that your neighbour is a terrorist and that we need to give up our rights for freedom! How much “double think” can an Orwellian koala bare?

Don’t fall for it people. Colgan, have you received funds or briefing from government agencies?

Red Herring says:

01:19pm | 04/08/09

Grumpy can I suggest that the distinguishing element is when somebody plans bombs and bullets?

The rest of what you describe about anti-abortionists etc. is democracy at work. Different groups will have different ideas about public policy, and they will advocate to the electorate in a democratic system to see their ideas implemented as policy by parliament.

Some of those ideas will be informed by religion. If you don’t like that then you need to get out there and “proselytise” your ideas, convince a majority of the electorate, and try to win in the democratic system like every other interested group.

It is when a group plans to bomb, shoot, maim and kill that their beliefs become a problem, informed by religion as in this case, or not. Islamic terrorism is the greatest violent political and religious threat we face today in Australia.

Tahir what you have written is unbelievably obscurantist and deceptive. You know full well that Islamic terrorism is motivated by Islam, that the “Somalian Government” you speak of is in fact a terrorist group of theocrats, allied to Al-Qaeda, who seized power without any democratic mandate, and imposed a brutal interpretation of capital and corporal Sharia law, that in nobodies wildest imagination could be described as “progressive”, on the long suffering people of Somalia.

Ethiopian troops, with the backing of almost the entire world, intervened to stop Somalia becoming a new Afghanistan or safe haven for terrorists to learn their trade and come back to attack our army barracks in Melbourne and Sydney.

What this recent plot shows is that Somalia has become important for Australia and the world’s security, and it is no longer good enough to sit by and watch the state fail. The West sat by and watched Al-Qaeda grow in Taliban Afghanistan for almost a decade, to disastrous results.

Never again, Australia must do more to help Ethiopians and Somalians crush terrorism in the Horn of Africa and close the terrorist training camps there so that we may be safer here at home.

tracyH says:

01:27pm | 04/08/09

Paul your comment about @Nyoongar’s post is so ironic..you did exactly what he/she says annoys them: had to rush to make a sycophantic comment about how GOOD her/his comment was!!!!

anthony says:

01:49pm | 04/08/09

Racial profiling as applied to white serial killers is often accurate. Equally, it is accurate to apply profiling, including racial/nationality traits, to terrorism suspects. I’m inclined to agree more with Eric rather than Colgan. Disappointing article, stick to reviewing bands, man.

Grumpy says:

01:56pm | 04/08/09

So, Red, shooting abortion doctors, picketing law abiding clinic workers and harassing pregnant women is just democracy at work?  Hmm. Interesting concept of democracy.  Christians, and other religionist, need to learn to let people live their lives according to their principles (as long as they don’t stop others doing the same).

Mango says:

02:23pm | 04/08/09

So let’s make sure we get another handwringing apologist politically statement out there right off the bat just as we find yet *another* terrorist plot in this country.  Nevermind that we nearly had an attack on one of our army bases.

And let’s demonstrate just how mindless we are by adopting the head in the sand approach and saying ‘it could be anyone!’, ‘Martha at the Bowling Club could be the next terrorist!’ It is comforting at least that our journalists are not leading surveillance and law enforcement operations.

A culture of ‘tolerance’ was never meant to be a suicide pact.

Alicia says:

02:27pm | 04/08/09

I think australians are incredibly naive or at the least brainwashed. For some reason everyone seems to think muslims are the only ones or the majority who are likely to be behind terrorism and violence and that it relates to the islamic religion. Why??? do people not have a knowledge of this world??? there are plenty of jewish extremists out there who commit just as much violence, how about the latino, mexican and american gangs who are some of the most violent and blood thirsty in the world, what about the christian fundamentalist armies in america or the catholics in Africa and the real IRA in ireland, what if we look to our own past and see how much blood and torture was committed by anglo’s. People need to open their eye’s there is violence everywhere and it is not committed by one particular group. As for the issue of religion, I think if people looked at what is behind the surface, such as the social and economic environments, you will find that is the root cause of the violence, which results in young people being drawn to organisations that do not, i repeat DO NOT, follow or teach their particular religion, they simply put forth their own ideas and beliefs and persuade vulnerable people to believe it is true. basically if governments dealt with the root social and economic causes, there wouldnt be as much problem with violence.

Red Herring says:

02:40pm | 04/08/09

Well as I said Grumpy, murder crosses the line, and that is the primary problem with Islamic terrorism. The other elements you mention are exactly democracy at work: Peaceful protest and argumentative advocacy. The line to cross there would generally be assault, either physical (touching) or psychic (creating a reasonable apprehension of imminent physical harm).

Otherwise politics and the contest of ideas can push the envelope of civility, that is what robust debate in a strong democracy is all about: The free exchange of ideas and electoral advocacy. This is exactly what Islamic terrorism does not respect, it is why it kills and why it will always be such a threat.

The key to stopping the terrorists in Somalia from training and sending more attackers to Australia lies with Ethiopia, they have the troops on the ground and a common cause with us. Please contact Kevin Rudd and Stephen Smith to urge closer cooperation with Ethiopia and more aid to help them in our common fight. To contact the Ethiopian ambassador accredited for Australia to urge the same you need to go through their embassy in China.

Also laughs at Erik @ Sydney’s conspiracy… How much is ASIO/CIA/MI6 paying you Paul Cogan??? What secrets did the smoking man tell you in the car park late last night??? lol…

Muhammad says:

02:46pm | 04/08/09

There is a verse of Quran says.. anyone who is says himself as Jew, Christian, Muslim or even a person who worship starts.. if that person beleives in God that there is one who is God and beleives in the day of judgement that person is in the boundry of beleivers and will have easy the next stage of life.. there is a verse of Quran that says.. all messengers and prophets of God and all books of God..there is no difference amongh them..Quran says.. if anyone kills one person is like killing whole mankin and saving one person is saving whole mankind..in 5 times prayers and about 40 repetation every day, we muslims say words means “O God,Please show and then stead fast the whole mankind on the right path”  .I am Pakistan born Australian Muslim and I learn Quran everyday throuhg my own research..

What I want to says is that if any person who says he/she is a muslim but his/her actions are against the teachings of Isalam, we should try not blaming Islam for this but its that person’s personal attitude… duty of Govt. based agnencies in worldwide is and obviousely in here in Australia is to protect people.  so I guess profiles should be based on more personal.. as we cannot judge or point out anyone.. any muslim or a christian or a jew or an athiest or whatever beleive or even a asian, europian, pakistani, indian, chinese etc.  any of these can be a real good and comunity beneficial person and any of them can be a real threat to the comunity..  and if some good person is distrubed for something that he/she has not done, it will disturb himself/herselt inside mind. and will also be a waste of time and resources for agencies.. I will say to more focus on each PERSONAL PROFILE.  ..God bless all

davido says:

02:52pm | 04/08/09

I agree with the main point. Race and ethnicity are of limited probative value. Moreover, they are highly prejudicial. Living in the most racist society on planet I cannot tell you how much damage is done by this sort of thing.

What you really need is ‘BELIEF PROFILING’.

Muhammad says:

03:06pm | 04/08/09

something that I should say about what Jihad is.. Jihad means struggle to fulfil a duty.. example: prayer time is reached but I must need a shower and I think about lazy, then struggling against this laziness and doing shower, cleaning myself out and they praying on time… means I have done Jihad. example:  I am driving on the road and suddenly some one or even a can or a dog is on the road or crossing the road, I slow down and stop if possible .. now that time that I have stopped myself will be counted as Jihad.  example: I found a bag with some previous items and money etc. and there is also contact details of the person that bag belongs to.. now returnning that bag to that person regardless of a thought comming into my brain to keep them with me, will be counted as Jihad..

Bloggs says:

03:06pm | 04/08/09

@ Red Herring.  Thank you for a well thought out writing.  I think you have nailed the issues extremely well and agree with your conclusions here.

Grumpy says:

03:09pm | 04/08/09

Agree with you up to a point, Red.  With you 100% on the “lines to cross”.  I have some background in geopolitics and think your spot on, regarding Ethiopia.  On the political discourse issue, the problem is that the argumentative advocacy is conducted on the basis of “Big Brother” must impose my view on all, rather than “let me convince you that (e.g.) abortion is wrong”.  Ultimately, all too high a proportion of religionists don’t want healthy debate - they want to bludgeon unbelievers into submission - without regard for the sort of pluralism that I think we both support.  It’s concerning because the willingness of the State to impose tight control on law abiding citizens, without regard to things like privacy, seems to be increasing.  And the technology is there to ensure absolute compliance where once it was not.  We’re a Nanny State now, and it seems to be getting worse by the day. Hence loopy lobby groups and would be theocrats that would once have been an amusing diversion on the political landscape, to me are more sinister due to their potential impact.

Mark says:

03:17pm | 04/08/09

If profiling didn’t work all the advertisers wouldn’t use it when designing ads and choosing media in which to run it. Profiling does not have to be simple. It can be multi-dimensional and use probabilistic logic.

Rob says:

03:31pm | 04/08/09

I have only scanned the responses to this article, and so I hope I am not repeating something that has already been said.

The problem that Paul Colgan raises is to do with the statistics of profiling.

A profiler noting that most Terrorists have a certain characteristic means only that the profiler has a sensitive test. The real problem is that the test is unlikely to be specific, and so runs the risk of a mountain of false-positive IDs. This antagonises people and still leaves authorities hunting for a needle in a haystack.

What Paul is suggesting is that profiling is no longer sensitive and that this is now *the* major problem. Somehow I doubt that. People whose job it is to profile terrorists probably have sufficient data to keep their techniques sensitive. I’d wager that the specificity problem is far larger.

john doe says:

03:34pm | 04/08/09

Racial, Religious, Cultural profiling works well. The west is now starting to disregarding this because of radical Marxist leftist globalist policy’s this is a huge mistake. The media covers up most of crimes, trys it’s best to make sure all racial groups, religious groups are leveled out in the public perception, which is like living a lie. The west is going to wake up in 50 years find that their cultures and nations and even their tribe are going be to point of extinction. The world will also be in chaos, in civil war. What people consider far-right today, would be considered conservative in 1910’s. The right, left and center would be considered radical globalists, who sell out their nations, culture and people, for an idea of a world without borders, one culture, one religion, one people(International Communism). This is purely radical and what 95% of western governments are doing today.

iansand says:

03:38pm | 04/08/09

Muhammad - But there are sects within Islam - such as the Wah’habis - of which many Saudis, including Bin Laden, are members.  They preach violent conflict with non-Muslims.  They fund many, if not most, of the fanatic producing madrassas.  If you are right, and you probably are, about the peaceful nature of mainstream Islam what are Muslims doing to discredit and neutralise these people?  Why do Pakistan, Indonesia, Egypt, Algeria and other Muslim countries permit their teaching?

Ben Payne says:

03:42pm | 04/08/09

@Alicia, you have it the wrong way around - it is the fundamentalist extremists who ARE following the true and literal word of god, and all the namby-pamby moderates who are making up their own ideologies:  “No, Jesus didn’t mean it LITERALLY, he was speaking FIGURATIVELY.” - lol.

The Qur’an has hundreds of passages about killing the infidels, and the bible is worse. Both say that slavery is normal, and that ‘virgins’ are one of the spoils of war.

I do agree, however, on your ‘root causes’ theory - if we could remove the socioeconomic differences, and encourage education about the REAL world, there would be a lot less violence in all societies.

When the people are ignorant and uneducated, they are more likely to believe the media propaganda about who the ‘enemy’ is (‘lookout! terrorists!’), and less likely to see that the real enemies are the established institutions and the ruling class.

Raju says:

03:53pm | 04/08/09

I certainly know the media likes to profile race, in somewhat simplistic and sensationalist reporting.  Then Bogans really mess things up when they inevitably can’t pick someone’s race based on appearance. (Believe me as a New Zealand born Australian of Scottish, English and Indian decent, I get it all) However it is quite unfair to suggest that our authorities are so simplistic in their investigations.  I thought they were profiling extremist Muslims regardless of race. That seems logical.

Paul. says:

03:55pm | 04/08/09

The faux-intellectualism which arises from issues such as this is so tiresome.
Statements such as “I have <minority> friends, so therefore my banal rhetoric is the real way of looking at it and anybody who does not agree is racist, uneducated and intolerant” fill all debates such as this.
Additionally, its people who want to tell us to feel guilty and horrible for trying to come to conclusions which may be deemed “politically incorrect” even though we may know them to be true, you are more or less bullied into silence or personally attacked if you state them.

It’s usually from people who want to apologise for things they never did, on behalf of groups and people they don’t really represent. A common one is anybody who is anglo-saxon has to feel guilty merely for existing. A statement such as this is usually met with the typical “oh u must be a racist Nazi yourself” knee-jerk response. Personally, these comments come from people who probably don’t really understand who the Nazi’s actually where and think that anybody who is against continued immigration or doesn’t want to tolerate a religion which preaches intolerance and shows intolerance every where it goes, must be one.
For the record I won’t name this religion, so if you are thinking what I think you are thinking it says more about your opinion then mine.

Also for the record, I’m not one of the kinds of people who would have been welcome among the Nazis anyway, and in fact would have likely been sent (if I where alive then) to an extermination camp, so for me to support Nazism would be attempting a long form of suicide. However it is just so irritating to hear from these fools, who think that if we all just ignore genuine issues in society from those who raise them, then try to pass laws to make discussion of it a “hate crime” then everybody will live in a land of gumdrops and lollypops.

Those who hold these brainless, faux-intellectual opinions may mean well and in their defence their hearts are in the right place; sadly their brains are not. Some groups do in effect, use these apologists as useful idiots.

One last thing, Australia is racist? This boring line usually comes from those who have demanded special treatment and when they haven’t gotten everything they have demanded they like to label those who didn’t give them everything as “racist”. Furthermore Australians are regarded as some of the nicest, most decent folk on the entire planet who show compassion for all peoples across the globe. Only fools of the highest order would suddenly label Australians as the most racist in the world because simply put, it’s not only one of the most offensive things I have ever heard in my entire life but it’s completely wrong. You are being just as racist as you think everybody else is.

These people obviously haven’t travelled very widely either.

Muhammad says:

04:34pm | 04/08/09

dear iansand:  when we see Islam.. Quran say.. in a verse that if someone creates sects in Islam, that person is doing against Islam, but currently we see many sects in Isalam.. I can tell you from my research how these sects came,  example:  there is a verse of Quran that was saying topic for people in previouse times who used to change words form God’s book and also about people who change meanings of verses of Quran.. and it said.. ‘do not sell words of God for a cheap price’.. meaning not to change the real meaning of words to get some lower value wordly desire and benefit.. and I have heard many people saying this verse as ‘people should not sell written Quran in book form in cheaper price’.  one group of following real meaning and one is just following a wordly and partly meaning (or cut piece)...this is what sects are about.. I am a muslim and I do not belong to any sect.  there is a group of people all over the world that is peacefully and steadely reforming Islam the way it should be and that exist in Australia and many western countries.. and even in western countries people are accepting Islam easily as compared to tradition bases Islamic countried.
Islam beleives in following and reforming in patience, steadily and looking at myself fist instead of pointing out on other.. the problem is the vast majority of muslims, do not learn Islam by research and by analysis but they just follow as tradition . and this starts problems.. I am going to work and will check this site again later on.. have a nice day all…

Gavin says:

04:42pm | 04/08/09

Your thinking is illogical. Tell me which religion is most associated with terrorism? Then tell me which races are most associated with that religion?
If you don’t know the answer spend 15 minutes on Wikipedia.
Then tell me profiling is wrong.

Steve says:

04:54pm | 04/08/09

Good post Paul.
I just sat through a university tutorial and we talked about these issues and more. It’s pretty sickening that principled followers of theory and ideology can twist this issue around so that it conforms to their beliefs. These people inhabit university campuses around Australia, and what I was just taught 15 minutes ago, was not what I call an education.
I can not wait until I get the degrees I want, then I am not dealing with another supposed scholar in my life again. There lack of pragmatism, especially concerning terrorism, the concepts of terrorism, and how to combat threats in a liberal-democratic society are really poor. To them it makes sense when viewed against a particular ideology, and from a logical perspective it does. However, pragmatism, the best type of ideology is what has to be exercised when dealing with home-grown threats such as these. They simply do not know when a line has to be drawn, and theory is taken over by practice.
Disgraceful.

iansand says:

04:59pm | 04/08/09

But Muhammad, the sects exist.  If you are correct about the nature of Islam (and you probably are) how are these sects allowed to prosper?  Why are the moderate majority not criticising them, or excommunicating them (or whatever the Muslim equivalent of excommunication is).  Muslims would garner far more respect in the world if there was loud and persistent condemnation of terrorism and violence.  If Hammas and Hezbollah were criticised in the mosques on the West Bank and in Gaza.  Or if the governments of Iran and Syria did not fund them.  While that is not happening it is easy to criticise Islam as a religion of violence.

Paul says:

05:28pm | 04/08/09

We can argue till the cows come home about race, ethnicicity or ideology, but the fact is, without the mindnumbing power of religion, we would not have to worry about terrorism in this country.

Geoff says:

05:42pm | 04/08/09

Steve (4.54pm), can you tell us all what university you’re studying at? If your language skills and illogical reasoning are an example of the quality at that university or college then obviously it is one that must be avoided.

johnv_au says:

05:58pm | 04/08/09

I wonder what would be said here if there had been a terroist attack on our soil? Good on the people who defend this country for getting them first who ever they are and where ever they are from I dont think this is over yet and again I say good on EM

Paul. says:

06:24pm | 04/08/09

Thanks for that Steve.
I’d encourage you though to not hide how you feel to the rest of your coursemates. As you’d probably already know, the nature of most fields of study is to continue its advancement instead of raising a group of rank and file cardboard cut-outs who all say the exact same things that they have been told, and don’t attempt to question any long standing ideas or try to think outside the box. It can be disastrous for any field if innovation and realistic thinking is discouraged.

You can challenge this nonsense you are essentially having shoved down your throat quite openly. Or at the very least discuss it with your coursemates, or even then when you finish the course and are qualified you can then say what you think - with the backing of your qualifications giving you increased credibility.
Essentially, you yourself can be the change that you wish to see in the world and if nothing is done, then that is very unfortunate.
I wish you the very best with it.

Concerned says:

06:33pm | 04/08/09

If these evil muslims are tried and found guilty ,they and their families should have their financial assets seized to offset the cost of stopping their muslim terrorist plot, and be stripped of their Australian citizenship, and deported once they have served their sentence. They and all of their family members should never be allowed to re-enter Australia ever again. The time has now come for Australians to question why successive Australian governments have allowed and still allow questionable muslims to come and live in Australia when their beliefs, which are solely based on the koran, are totally diametrically opposed to the Australian way of life. For years both labour and liberal have encouraged and set up policies for muslims to come to Australia. We must also blame ourselves for voting for those successive governments that have allowed this to continue. If you don’t like what has happened in the past and is still happening today, you can change it at the next election by voting for a party that has a manifesto which promises to end the islamisation of Australia, and promises to stop taking all migrants with a culture and way of life that is alien, and at odds with the Australian way of life, and promises to encourage those that are here to return back to their own countries with financial incentives to do so, clearly our secular Australian way of life (which is founded upon anglo principles) is clearly at odds with the muslim way of life.  Its time to put an end to those that seek to destroy us and our way of life in the name of their false god allah.

charlotte says:

06:49pm | 04/08/09

Okay, yes, the group was not of one single race. But they had training locations and religious/cultural beliefs in common? Perhaps we target on those grounds?  No-one likes the fact that you can actually make reasonable assumptions based on certain characteristics. But if they’re true, they’re likely to be true based on statistics, should we not suse that information on the basis that less frequently, it won’t be true, or it seems politically incorrect? There is a definite link between extremist muslim beliefs/training and terrorist/anti-social activities. We gain nothing by denying that, or by feeling uncomfortable when we say it,

Jessica says:

06:50pm | 04/08/09

Paul, your comments have some truth, but religion aside, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank (kicking people out of their home) I would be pretty upset too. And I would be upset at any country who gave Israel power.
The Muslim people fighting in Israel or Afghanistan are not terrorists, they are soldiers fighting their enemy. Even these guys going to fight in the Australian Army Barracks could be seen as soldiers. At least they were going to take on armed people. Not innocent civilians.

Ian says:

07:11pm | 04/08/09

The whole basic point, is that our treacherous Federal government is letting them migrate to this country, and is still letting them in. If they were not let in, in the first place, our level of potential threat would not be as grave.

Paul. says:

07:25pm | 04/08/09

Jessica
Regarding Israel – yes that’s horrible. You may be saying this because you assume I’m Jewish or am another person who says “everything the Israelis do is totally ok just because”. No, I’m not one of them either.

Comparisons are made by some today of Israel to Germany during the build-up to WW2 in that Germany moved into Czechoslovakia and demanded people leave houses simply for not being German, to make room for settlers from Germany which is much like what Israel did to Palestine.
However that aside what must be taken into account is that every single nation in the middle east just about hates Israel for various reasons and one of the biggest is that they are primarily jewish. Tensions of the Arab-Israeli war still continue to linger regarding territory taken and Palestine’s apathy to Hamas only antagonizes Israel further. What is sad though is Israel can be very heavy handed to say the least.

However it is a complete fool who would say “one side is 100% in the right, the other is 100% in the wrong”. Palestine doesn’t exactly have the cleanest record itself. Essentially both sides have a lot to answer for, despite any personal stories we may hear which try to totally demonise the other side.

On Afghanistan, the worry is that these places are used as “breeding grounds” for continued terrorist attacks well outside of Afghanistan. I personally don’t entirely subscribe to this theory however we would be here all night if we wanted to debate how to best handle that issue.

Where you mention the attack on the barracks is where your guilt-ridden line of thought hit’s a wall. These guys intended to kill everybody that they could see and much of the time (and surprisingly) army bases outside of clear zones of conflict are poorly guarded. Not only that they are guarded at the gates by civilians and *not* military.

Furthermore not everybody inside an army base is walking around with a gun in their hands, all weapons inside are secured and while of course there is access to weapons, it is fallacious these things can be instantly grabbed during a possible attack. An attack like this could have killed many who where unarmed.
However for you to downplay it and then seem to insinuate that the attack wouldn’t have been so bad because “they are soldiers and not civilians” is something you should hang your head in shame for, this naïve logic of yours is something of a worry to say the least. Perhaps you are just simply naïve and in that case I’ll apologize if I may come across as rude so take that as it is.

By the way, these men where from Somalia and Lebanon, two places where Australian troops aren’t exactly involved a great deal, what is in common in this is a particular religion, not a particular location.

Ed Nagaber says:

07:28pm | 04/08/09

Islam is an ideology and not a religion, just like the communist ideology using Karl Marx as the doctrine , and this other ideology is using Allah, what is the difference ? They come to harbour and need help from a sectarian country but what they give in return, to terrorize the adopted country. I have been living in a muslim country for 5 decades, I know them well, I cannot trust them, they may put knive at your back one day when they do not agree with you. The government should stop the inflow of muslims into this country, no need to worry to be called unfair to muslims or racist. Racism is everywhere, this universe is designed in such way, and can never be erased, non muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca, that is one example.

Donovan says:

07:40pm | 04/08/09

The lack of racial profiling in the West is a huge concern.
It misses the root cause of all these problems - immigration. Immigration is at the root of 90% of Western societal problems. We’d all be happier and safer without it.

fenton says:

07:42pm | 04/08/09

Jessica,
They are not about fighting and kicking people out of their homes. They are about killing as many people as possible and people in an army barracks whether they be a cleaner, cook, receptionist, hairdresser or soldier are innocent people. And what does Palestine have to do with anything? You don’t make any sense.

JohnS says:

07:42pm | 04/08/09

When did pragmatism become the enemy of the social progressives? Racial profiling shouldn’t be equated to the exclusive persecution of particular ethnic groups. It isn’t persecutory to say a large number of terrorists are of Arab descent - just as it isn’t to say that gang related crimes are high amongst black American youth or that there are scores of drug traffickers that are of Asian descent. There is no implication that all blacks are violent or that all Asians sell drugs or that all Arabs are evil.

Asia is a wellspring for the supply of narcotics; it therefore quite justifiably follows that authorities would scrutinise activity amongst the criminal element within that ethnic grouping in any attempt to impede the escalation of criminal activity. Why shouldn’t the same rules of logical reasoning apply to terrorism? The Middle-East is a hotbed for radicalism and extremism. Commonsense dictates monitoring the activity of individuals with roots over there.

No preventative action is ever going to adequately provide for all non conformances. There will always be individuals that fall through the cracks. But at some point, rationality needs to give way to reactive political correctness and we need to accept that sensible, down the line approaches often work best or at least well to ensure that individuals like these four don’t succeed.

Peter says:

08:13pm | 04/08/09

For the ignorant comments on here, I am a Christian of Lebanese background, where do I fit into all this? Stereotype much? Perhaps you should try reading a book every now and then - ignorance is nothing to be proud of. Pick up a book and you might learn a thing or two. You probably have more in common with a terrorist than I ever will - ignornace, hatred and intolerance are your common characteristics.

Mark says:

08:22pm | 04/08/09

Really? We have Lebanese bashing Indian students in Sydney (oh wait, we can’t name their race in the media can we?), Lebanese at the forefront of organised crime and horrific rapes, also in Sydney, and now they are part of the huge terrorism plot. Oh no, racial profiling is useless (cough, cough). One more thing, interesting to see the complete silence YET AGAIN from the Oz Muslim community. It speaks volumes.

Bill Ozin says:

08:31pm | 04/08/09

I don’t know much about signals intelligence, but I do know about probablility and limited resources. I would guess, if I was looking for a particular threat, that I would apply the tool I that I judged that would bring the best result. I would profile or filter with that tool. Fortunately someone got it right. There would have been absolute slaughter if these people hadn’t been filtered out.

Karl says:

08:42pm | 04/08/09

The only one whipping up a racial storm in all this is Paul Colgan.  You hack!

Karl says:

08:50pm | 04/08/09

Jessica, 
“At least they were going to take on armed people. Not innocent civilians”  So what have our soldiers done to you to take the position that they are legitimate targets on their home soil whilst unarmed?  Now listen carefully, soldiers, in Australia and in barracks do not walk around armed.  Weapons and ammunition are all stored in secure separate areas.  If that philosophy was followed elsewhere the world would probably be a safer place.  You seem to be some sort of sympathiser to these suspects.  Perhaps there is more of an enemy within and it isn’t ijust slamic taxi drivers and labourers.

Jordan H Jones says:

08:53pm | 04/08/09

I think it is utterly amazing how clueless most Australians are. Reading some of these comments, it is just further proof. To allege that these people in some way are ‘soldiers’ defies belief. The Australian public are shamefully fooled by the endless media hype surrounding these events. I laughed tonight when some ‘terrorist expert’ from a uni came on TV and said that this possible planned attack must mean that they are moderates as they would have been mad to attack trained and armed soldiers at an army base. That is exactly why they have chosen these targets. Contrary to popular belief and the nightly TV dramas, our soldiers don’t wander around Holsworthy Barracks armed to the teeth. In fact, all weapons are securely stored in separate unit armouries and live ammunition contained in a central magazine within the base. With a large gathering of soldiers in the area, and the alleged use of sustained automatic fire from assault weapons, it would have been mayhem. There would have been no chance to grab weapons, issue them and ‘bomb up’ on ammunition whilst lots of your mates are being slayed. How about we get off the bandwagon and stop listening to two bit bush lawyers, the media and armchair experts and thankgod our police and security services are on the ball. Now let’s sit back and watch the lowest of the low Barristers and the Courts get these people off, and the usual suspects come out and adopt the ‘love a terrorist’ campaign. Well done to the AFP, the Victoria Police, ASIO and the other agencies involved. The media have struck again, poor old Godwin Grech again makes the news only to be thrown aside with this development.

Anon says:

09:01pm | 04/08/09

Is it really intelligent to let Islamic culture prosper in our country? Of course, not every Muslim is a terrorist, to say such a thing would be idiotic. However, Islam is the first choice religion for a huge majority a modern terrorists; a problem only worsening with the growing Muslim populations of the world. Heck, can anyone name one country predominately Islamic that has a respectable human rights record in recent times? You need to look at the culture as a whole, not the individuals.

James says:

09:41pm | 04/08/09

Yea Eric, cause David Hicks was really somalian or lebanese wasnt he?? *rolls eyes* for goodness sake, read the article properly people.

economichitman.com says:

09:49pm | 04/08/09

something smells fishy. sometimes it’s easier to create a scare campaign to pass controversial laws. if this is genuine case, then i suggest the muslims brothers to engage in intellectual jihad since we are in the west and to either convince the government or the public to convince the government stop bowing down to the US and israeli lobby. Australia is just a pawn in the war OF terror.

Roy says:

10:17pm | 04/08/09

Rudd had it right, in specifically pointing out the fact that this IS no reflection on any specific group in Australia. Muslims are once again being dragged into the same words as Terrorists and I find it disgusting. I feel sorry for the Muslim population just as much as I do happiness that this suspected plot was not carried out. When is the media going to stop with this biast reporting towards Muslims and Terrorists. All I have heard today in every related news story is “Muslim” and “Terrorism”. It’s time the media stopped spreading this rubbish and focused on the important facts, over half a million Muslims live in Australia unaided and are extremely valuable contributors to the community and our society as a whole, all this kind of reporting does is lead people to come to extremely negative and untruthful views about such people. If they were catholic, protestant, evangelical, followers of past pagan relgions or athiests there would have been absolutely no mention of their religious beliefs at all. Yet because these people associate themselves with the Muslim beliefs suddenly they are labelled for everyone to view like it is a common thing in the Muslim world. It’s time for this to end, I have less respect for how media outlets have promoted this story than I do for the accused suspects if it turns out these allegations are true. The prime minister is the only person I have seen in the media today that has made any rational report on this matter, he made it perfectly clear this is in no way a reflection of any specific religious group and that of only a extreme few individuals. If we all took a page from the message he has tried to pass on today, Australia would quickly begin on the verge of wide social recovery instead of childish hatred and out casting.

gail burke says:

10:27pm | 04/08/09

Angus you are right, these terrorist are driven by ideology.  It is extreme.  Look at Mumbai, do we want to go through that.  This not a joke, please have sense all of us to watch our backs. Addressing the root of hatred is long past with muslims, they are on a vendetta of hatred and evil. At the moment they are the biggest problem of this planent.
To Alicia,  Australians are not naive, we are wary and contemplate that any real trouble in the world will be muslim linked, no matter what the person looks like, you can bet he will be trained in the Islamic way..
I and my family will do anything to protect our freedom and way of life.
Memo to Rudd PM. for the sake of the security of our country, stop these boat loads of people(especially men and boys) getting easy passage to our shores with the now obvious consequences.

Michael says:

10:29pm | 04/08/09

Its nice to think so Jessica, but it just isn’t so, when our troops are overseas they are armed, at home on the base they are not carrying around loaded weapons, they are only armed with their knowledge as soldiers, yes more honourable then killing men women and children, but they are still sought to commit treason against our nation and should be hung in my opinion.

M S Akhter says:

10:30pm | 04/08/09

Whatever their background they were not muslims.No muslim is going to kill an innocent soldier unless he is in the battle-field. Terrorism is an act committed by sick minds. It is very unfortunate that scholars who have defined Jehaad in its true perspective, like Dr Israr are not allowed to speak on TV. A jehad cannot be called by a mullah. The call has to come from an Amirul-momeneen; that is, a head of an Islamic state who is known to be pious and is performing the 5 basic fundamentals of the religion; and that too, the fight has to be in the battle-ground and not in cities etc. According to Dr. Israr their is not a single ruler who is eligible to call for jihaad.

John Williams says:

11:00pm | 04/08/09

Profiling is about parameters.
Race is a parameter….nothing more or less.
Religion…in particular of the fanatical kind that beheads people…is another.
A comphrehensive profile would probably include many parameters.
The thickest amongst us can see that there is a connect here.
And that however much it might affect the sensitivities of a few journalists it is or could be an extremely useful tool in law enforcement.
An old saying: “If the cap fits….”
A more recent saying might be offered: If your position is threatened just include “racism” somewhere….anywhere…. in the report to effectively shut down debate.

Kieran says:

01:19pm | 05/08/09

I love how journalists love to tell police how to do their jobs.

If “profiling” racial or otherwise didn’t work, do you seriously think the over-worked, underpayed coppers would bother with it?

The truth is, profiling, whether by race, political belief, religious belief, criminal history or occupation is a central part of the intelligence community’s modus operandi. Without it, we will be less safe and terrorists will gain a powerful advantage over the community they seek to destroy - our own.

Blinkered adherence to soft-left race-political theory is no match for a suicide bomber. Intelligence is.

Dave says:

01:32pm | 05/08/09

You are absolutely correct.  We can’t judge potential terrorists by the color of their skin.  We can however observe the fact that the overwhelming majority of islamic terrorists turn out to be muslims.  In fact you could even note that there has not been a single islamic terrorist who turned out not to be a muslim.  Race isn’t a problem when it comes to islamic terrorists, religion is.  The pity however is that any criticism of islam is described as “racist” when clearly it is not.

Andrew says:

03:51pm | 05/08/09

We are blind if we as a society don’t acknowledge that Islam is not a benign religion on par with our western religions.  It is an ideology centred on global domination by any means possible.  racial profiling might not be profitable, but profiling based on religious views does seem to be warranted if you consider that the vast majority of terrorists who are posing a risk to our society are muslim.

Those arrested should be tried on treason.  It is utterly treasonous to plot attacks on our own soldiers on our own land.  They are only lucky you don’t get hung for that kind of action any more.  I’d make the same statements no matter what their religion, but I wasn’t at all surprised to hear they were of the “religion of peace” (yeah right!) rather than a non- religious aussie, or a member of a western christian.

Paul says:

08:26pm | 05/08/09

Paul Colgan your politcally correct views in this case are absolute nonsense. how many innocent people will have to die before fools like you admit that our biggest terrorist threats are from EXTREMIST MUSLIMS primarily of ARAB AND AFRICAN DESCENT.

how on earth do you get away with publishing drivel like this?

johnv_au says:

03:59pm | 06/08/09

The profile is they will be muslim they will be residents in the country they are going to attack and young and ready to kill non muslims and the authorities and law abiding muslims will probably already know them and they will be driven by what is happening to muslims in muslim countries by peolple in muslim countries and they will most likely not succeed becourse

So profile that (and i hope we make laws to destry them if found guilty of these crimes against humanity )