Punch Q & A: When is it OK for the media to discuss suicide?

atthepub says:

07:16am | 02/08/11

Most people I haven spoken to about it have considered suicide. Some only fleetingly, others more seriously. Is part of the human condition I would think. Stuff gets too much too handle and we think .. I’m outta here. Would be beneficial if people in general had more ‘life skills’ and understanding of how to deal with tricky situations. It also helps to understand that all of us go through stuff and that’s just the way it is.

marley says:

08:40am | 02/08/11

I can honestly say I’ve never thought of suicide. Many of the apparently intractable problems I’ve encountered turned out to have solutions - difficult ones, sometimes, requiring work and/or compromise - but solutions nonetheless.  The problems that were intractable I lived with, or walked away from.  I guess I’m a natural-born problem-solver (I love puzzles) so I tend to focus on solutions, not on how lousy I might be feeling at the time. 

That’s me, though, and I do know depression can be a terrible, debilitating thing.  I’m all for open discussion of the issues around suicide.

Kika says:

09:40am | 02/08/11

I know I have. Many times. Some more seriously than others. But I still believe it would have been better if I had never been born.

atthepub says:

03:11pm | 02/08/11

What makes you say that Kika?

Kika says:

03:50pm | 02/08/11

Because if I had never been born, then I wouldn’t never have known what life is, or could be, and never would have gone through what I’ve gone through. Or in otherwords - ignorance is bliss. It’s true isn’t it? I rue the day my parents decided to get busy. RUE the day.

atthepub says:

05:41pm | 02/08/11

Do you know that what you’re saying is very biblical? The only times birthdays are mentioned in the bible is when people’s heads are being chopped off or when they curse the day they were born. It’s even mentioned that the day of death is better than the day of birth. Your comments tell me that you hate your life .. is a good thing according to the bible.

You may hate the bible too, just thought to let you know that there’s actually sentiments out there agreeing with you.

Not having you on either, been there plenty times myself.

Lisa H. says:

12:55am | 03/08/11

I feel there is an awful lot of pressure on men to ‘come up with the money’, and no doubt that pressure is intensified if a family breaks down.

The only time I have ever heard my husband utter anything close to suicidal messages is in times of intense pressure in relation to our family business - a massive tax bill or some other ‘bolt from the blue’.

It’s not just sexual partners that look for a payout from a man who shows any signs of capability - it’s the government, society at large if you like, as well.

There is certainly a whole heap of expectations weighed on the family man…he’s the bull who, at the end of the day, is expected to pull the social cart, no matter how heavy.

No wonder they ‘just do it’. They couldn’t bear the stigma of a failed attempt. Women have less pressure. In fact, for women, the life pressure is probably to NOT succeed, or at any rate, to not fully succeed.

Erick says:

08:06am | 02/08/11

I was reluctant to bring this up, but now that you mention it ...

Rarely is it acknowledged that 80% of suicides are male. In fact, suicide is one of the leading causes of death in men aged 20-45. Discussion of the reasons for this is generally avoided with some kind of hand-waving about “men use more lethal means”.

That, of course, simply ignores the real question. Why do men use more lethal means in suicide attempts? Because, unlike most women who make attempts, the men aren’t just calling for help - they actually want to die.

And why would so many men want to die?

Could it have anything to do with the persistent psychological warfare against men in our society, from pre-school right through to adulthood, and beyond? Could it be related to the way men are cruelly exploited in family courts, deprived of their children, lied about, and forced to pay their abusers? Could the epidemic of false rape accusations have anything to do with it?

These questions are simply not to be asked. Men are the forgotten victims, the ignored half of humanity.

marley says:

08:47am | 02/08/11

@Erick - suicide rates for men have been higher than for women since at least the 1920s, which is well before your “psychological warfare against men in our society.”  And further, suicide rates for men have been dropping since the late 90s. 

So, whatever the reason, and I agree it’s a serious problem (and one highlighted on just about all the websites on the subject, so it’s hardly being ignored), I don’t think it’s as simple as the rise of feminism.

Bev says:

09:51am | 02/08/11

I do not think so.  The new guidelines if followed through will serve to highlight what has been up to now a massive hidden problem.  Youth suicide and womens suicides have both been talked about and have received large amounts of government money to combat the problem. The biggest at risk group men in the 24 to 44 age group and the over 65’s have not rated a mention.
To take older men first many are divorced or single with only a small number of friends as men do not network as well as women.  In a large number of cases divorced men have lost contact with their children as their divorce meant not only divorce from their wife but their children as well. Families support their elderly women relatives quite well but not so much elderly male relatives.  If severe illness strikes family and government support services rally for women.  Wheras many men find less support from their families and little or no government support services aimed at them.  Many see only one way out however more support (family and other) would see them survive happily for many more years.
After the introduction of no fault divorce the suicide rate for divorcing and divorced men (particularly those who lost their children) climbed reaching a peak of 5 to 7 PER DAY in the late nineties. The rate has now dropped by more than half since family court practices changed to give fathers a better go.  This fact was suppressed or ignored by successive governments. Feminists played a very active role in this suppression attempting to turn it around and putting out the message that it was in fact fathers fault and anyhow fathers were not needed in their childrens lives so the fact that they were not around (permanently) was of little consequence. Bringing the reporting of suicide into the mainstream can help in highlighting what has been and is likely to become again large problem with the reworking of family law about to be passed into law.  If others take this as a political comment so be it. Problems are not solved by shooting the messenger because society or elements of it have chosen to ignore or suppress facts because it is an inconvenient truth.

Erick says:

10:23am | 02/08/11

@Marley, I beg to differ.

First off, I’ve read several articles about suicide on The Punch. Not one of these mentioned the fact that 4 out of 5 suicides are male. But if the genders were reversed, feminists would be up in arms, and it would be a huge issue, like breast cancer.

Secondly, we don’t know what caused the suicides of men in the 1920s, nor do we know if the reasons have changed. And it seems nobody is interested in finding out why so many men think that killing themselves is their best option. This is because society doesn’t care what happens to men - which itself is probably a contributing factor to male suicide.

Thirdly, as we have seen below, even when someone does raise the issue of disproportionately high suicide rates against men, people like Nick and atthepub jump in to demand censorship. Evidently the topic is so challenging to their world-views that they don’t want anyone to mention or discuss it.

Overall, suicide is a huge epidemic that affects men specifically, but because they’re men, it has to be swept under the carpet and everyone has to pretend it’s gender-neutral.

JohnB says:

11:59am | 02/08/11

Yep, it’s a disgrace the way fathers are dealt with in separation. I personally know of more than ten men that have taken their lives as a DIRECT result of having lost their kids. The laws are presently about shared care. That is, as long as the mother agrees. Hardly a law…They can’t make it much less fair than it already is?????

Me personally. I didn’t agree with the man my ex wanted involved with my kids. I winged about it, made it difficult for her. Easy solution. Get an AVO against me. I was never violent, never threatened violence. But had to defend an AVO after she hit me. It’s not until you get dragged through it, you see the incredible machine operate against you. When I turned up to court, I was treated like Martin Bryant. She was flanked by two court appointed very burly woman. The cops represent her (no cost) Remember, she punched me IN FRONT OF THE KIDS. Did anyone care about that? uhm, no. If I did that I’d never see them again. The cops were always sympathetic towards me and expressed the way their hands are tied and they must do it her way….

There is absolutely no doubt for the reasons of almost all male suicide. We need look no further.

As for the 1920’s…There were all sorts of issues then. It was a depression wasn’t it?

We men are being treated terribly. The only way this stays the way it is, is the men that care enough about it are the ones trying to get up off the ground after having been crash tackled by the courts.

The biggest lie in all of it is the “threat” men are made out to be against their own kids. The numbers have been disgracefully applied. Men, extremely rarely kill or harm their blood kids. In fact FAR LESS than mothers do. The numbers this horrendous government is using (and getting away with) include uncles, step fathers and whatever other men they can add to support their numbers.

I encourage all men that have been unfairly dealt with or know of other men to stay active after you recover. Lobby local politicians.

andye says:

12:38pm | 02/08/11

@Erick - I agree that this is major problem that should have more focus, but you are only bringing it up to shoehorn your belief system in there. Male suicide is completely due to external factors?

You say “society doesn’t care about men” but you always seem to place your support for men in the context of opposition to feminism, even if you tip-toe around it.

If we want to talk about suicide from “external factors”, what about gay suicide? Male homosexuals have a much higher rate of suicide than straight males. The lack of support systems and the homophobia they experience when young are major factors.How many of your “male suicides” are due to that and not rampant feminism and false rape accusations?

atthepub says:

12:44pm | 02/08/11

Erick, your rigid stance on many topics, particularly men’s issues are just that; a rigid stance. People who have a different opinion from you aren’t necessarily wrong. They just have a differing, equally valid opinion. You assume way too many things when you post.

You just assumed that I demanded censorship because the topic is challenging to my world-views and that I don’t want anyone to mention or discuss it. This is not true. You mentioning the topic ad nauseam is a bit of a challenge however because of your very own world views.
You state that society doesn’t care what happens to men. This is also not true. And you state that when men commit suicide it has to be swept under the carpet and everyone has to pretend it’s gender-neutral. This is also not true.
You call men the forgotten victims, the ignored half of humanity whilst all evidence is to the contrary. It is clear that you believe this to be true, it just so happens that this is contrary to statistics worldwide pointing to abuse and neglect of women.

Just the same Erick, back to the suicide factor. An equally valid viewpoint re the high stats on men committing suicide is the fact that men and women are wired differently and many guys when left to their own devices can’t cope and take the coward’s way out and instead of doing the best they can they choose to leave their children fatherless and their ex-partners without support in raising the lives which they created.

If you disagree with that point of view you are disempowering men by taking away from them the last decision they made in their lives and blaming others for this decision. You are then effectively saying that men aren’t capable of making their own decisions.

Just my opinion. Don’t like it when people say that guys don’t know what they’re doin.

marley says:

01:23pm | 02/08/11

@Erick - and I beg to differ with you.  There are lots of studies, reports and articles about the reasons for the differences in suicide rates between males and females (Google has 47 million hits on male suicide)  - it’s a major issue in the scientific and social welfare communities.  And it’s a universal phenomenon - not one exclusive to Australia or countries with similar social fabric.  So I think it’s a bit facile to blame feminism and family courts here for something that happens worldwide.

But why the disparity?  No one has a handle on it really:  that doesn’t mean, however, that people aren’t trying to identify the keys.  I’ve seen theories to the effect that men are less likely than women to speak up about their issues, less likely to seek help from doctors or psychologists, more likely to work in isolated occupations (farmers, for example) and therefore less able to access support networks when they need it.  Tough upper lip and all that.  Unemployment (male suicide rates were very high during the Depression), social isolation and chronic illness are all factors, as, for men in particular, is age - the suicide rate for older men is very high.

That’s why things like Beyond Blue are so important - putting depression and related issues, including suicide, out in the public fora and reducing the “shame’ factor.  They encourage everyone to access the networks and support they need - that’s especially important for men.  Perhaps that support is one of the reasons male suicide rates have declined in the last 10 years.

Bottom line:  I disagree that no one cares and I disagree that the issue is being swept under the carpet.

Bev says:

01:45pm | 02/08/11

atthepub says:12:44pm | 02/08/11
guys when left to their own devices can’t cope and take the coward’s way out and instead of doing the best they can they choose to leave their children fatherless and their ex-partners without support in raising the lives which they created.

In those words you have in part defined the problem.
When women or others suicide there is symphathy offered and calls are made for more support.
For men your attitude is very much to the fore.  They are selfish or cowards and what about the mothers and children left behind and what about the money. Talk about blame the victim! No thought that in the depths of depression and despair they see no way out and get no support but plenty of venom.  Particularly if they are divorced and have little or no contact with their children (many not through their own fault).  What you are saying in as many words is men have no emotions, have no love for their children and their loss is only important because of the money angle. Your lack of compassion is a worry.

hot tub political machine says:

01:50pm | 02/08/11

For an issue like this its bloody important its put in context. One piece of context is to be aware that suicide attempts do not have disparity between genders. Suicides rates are higher for males – but attempt rates are roughly equal for the genders. Which tells us that men use more lethal methods of suicide attempt than ladies – but not that men suffer more. Suicide is a human problem – not a gendered one.

Angel says:

02:09pm | 02/08/11

My understanding is that there is something to the methods chosen. Men tend to choose methods that leave less chance of survival. Granted, it’s only one factor.

Bev says:

02:44pm | 02/08/11

hot tub political machine says:01:50pm | 02/08/11
Everybody agrees that the many women us less lethal methods because for many it is a cry for help/attention rather than a flat out suicide attempt. They can be just as determined if they really are trying.
Men don’t cry for help/attention they just do.  This is why earlier intervention can save lives particularly men and youths. Again which is why I find some comments distastful in that they would rather blame than offer help.

hot tub political machine says:

03:16pm | 02/08/11

@ Bev,

I learned of this from a Paediatrician who had treated numerous suicide attempts – I raised the cry for help issue myself, but he made a distinction between attempt and cry for help and still had attempts the same between men and women.

One big reason for the more lethal attempts by men is firearms, many fewer women own firearms than men. This is also one of the major reasons for higher suicide rates in rural areas – most metropolitan living men don’t own firearms.

atthepub says:

03:48pm | 02/08/11

Bev you’re assuming things, I never mentioned a money angle, I mentioned support. Support can be a regular phone call to see how some one is doing. Support can be changing a flat tire. Support can be many different things and yes money is one of them but only just one of the many different ways we can support some one.

Support would include for instance NOT have the father/mother taking him/herself away permanently (suicide) from his/her children. Just the presence of a parent figure in the back ground can be a huge support to struggling teens.

I have seen plenty females (and males) flock around the ‘abandoned or suicidal guy,’ your view is lopsided. Feel free to substitute girl wherever I said guy. I have no gender bias, all people to me.

Back on topic of when is it OK for media to discuss suicide?
Please thread as carefully as possible around young impressionable minds. And please be respectful of grieving families. Allow families as much time as they need to come to terms with their loss before discussing the suicide of a family member in the media.

Erick says:

06:16pm | 02/08/11

@atthepub - I consider that hateful attitudes like yours contribute to male suicides. You blame men and shame them, and have no sympathy for their problems at all. Troubled men who see this sort of callous disregard can only feel worse about themselves and the world.

You are not a part of the solution. You are a part of the problem.

Lukew says:

07:20pm | 02/08/11

The fact is that if you publish the details of a suicide you will inspire a rash of copy cats to follow. 

I have no problem discussing suicide, but the details of specific suicides should not be reported.

atthepub says:

08:34pm | 02/08/11

@Erick Feel free to substitute girl wherever I said guy. I have no gender bias, all people to me.

Hate only comes into it when people lay blame, I don’t lay blame. Nor do I have time for people walking around pointing the finger. I do however have huge sympathy for people who pick up the pieces when people (male or female) bail out.

I hear the message being sent loud and clear by all people who commit suicide; I can’t handle my life and am outta here. There’s consequences that flow from their actions. I point out a few of those consequences after having seen this close up too many times and these consequences are as much a part of the whole debacle as anything else.

If you cannot see that Erick, you are only getting a tiny part of the whole picture and you’d be struggling to make sense of any of it.

It is sad that such a nice platform as the Punch has been so infiltrated by a bunch of women haters who twist and thwart any decent conversation on any topic. Even posting hateful and nasty comments just to get back at people thread after thread. Reminds me of yahoo answers where there’s mainly thirteen year olds posting.

Ridonkulous says:

12:35pm | 02/08/11

that has got to be the least motivating arguement for disclosure of suicides.

Erick says:

08:09am | 02/08/11

That’s right, Nick. If a topic of discussion, or other people’s opinions make you uncomfortable, censorship is the answer.

Sceptic says:

08:16am | 02/08/11

@Nick

Doesn’t JohnB have a right to raise the issue of divorced fathers committing suicide?

Erick says:

08:46am | 02/08/11

“Black shirter rhetoric”? Is that like hairy-armpitted bra-burner diatribe?

Nick says:

08:50am | 02/08/11

Tory - thanks for your reply, I agree it is a hard call.

Claims of censorship is just a typically exaggerated stance.  In fact the flocking to my comment is an example of the phenomenon that concerns me about discussing suicide in these kinds of forums.

Another example is the rate of false rape claims.  There are people who invest incredible effort in getting those numbers correct - social scientists, mental health workers etc.  Tory contacted those people and got their views, but when we got to the discussion people were allowed to provide essentially random numbers as the basis for very aggressive debate.  Why?  Why not have a debate based on facts and delete the garbage?  It’s called moderation and for sure it’s a bit of a skill but it isn’t censorship if done properly.  The people running this website clearly lack the time to do it properly.

And the no-means-yes near rape fantasies of SSR et al were totally out of line - again they slipped through.

Discussing suicide at the societal level is important for sure, I just wonder whether this is the kind of forum that is suitable.  I just wanted to flag the question.

OchreBunyip says:

08:50am | 02/08/11

@Nick, the distortion of such topics by other parties with vested interests should also ring alarm bells, not just the ones you disagree with from the Men’s Rights activists. Censorship won’t help present a balanced involvement of interested parties, all it will do is make the exercise a pointless group think opportunity.

Bev says:

09:02am | 02/08/11

One of the reasons the Press council has changed the guidelines is because they say that social media is allowing information about suicide particularly young people to filter out and in some cases become distorted.  Wheras before such information was hidden by the media more open reporting brings to light a problem and hopefuly helps reduce it. 
Some mens rights groups are over the top but many are not.  I will mention two groups Dad’s in Distress (DiDs) and Mens Sheds. Both have done a great deal of good work to council and support men and have stopped a great many suicides. There are very few support services for men and many for for women.  Both are voluntary (though Mens Sheds has received a small amount from the government) and depend on donations. I suggest you Nick find out more about “mens groups” instead of swallowing feminist propaganda about them. For a great many years men’s problems and the ability to speak of them one of which has been the large suicide rates of men’s during and following divorce wrought by biased treatment by the family courts.  When these problems are dismissed, ridiculed or sweep under the carpet naturally men and women (yes women are affect as are children) affected will get militant and become “more in your face” in an attempt to have their case heard.
I have not addressed your rape comment as we should stay on topic.  Another time and place perhaps would be more approprate.

atthepub says:

09:15am | 02/08/11

I’m with Nick in that some people on the Punch (getting in early and sadly having gathered a following) are a little heavy on the ‘men’s right’s’ and put this in wherever appropriate or not. Many of us think that these people would be better of in therapy rather than on the Punch.

I am very appreciative of the platform given by the Punch for people’s opinions to be heard .. I’m with Nick that the ‘liberal’ moderation often give incredible distortions.

My concern is that if this were to be read by younger readers, they wouldn’t necessarily have the discernment necessary to see that some people just have issues and vent these at the Punch.
Alarm bells also @thepub, loud and strong.

Bev says:

10:14am | 02/08/11

Tory a suggestion.  Perhaps it would be useful to invite either or both the groups I mention DiDs and Mens Sheds to submit an article on the work they do particularly in the area of suicide.  It might help dispell some of the bad publicity, myths and downright misinformation put out about mens groups. 
The vast majority of these groups disowned and condemed the black shirts but it is trotted out by many as an example of what mens groups are all about.

Sceptic says:

12:06pm | 02/08/11

@atthepub

The daily flogging of women’s rights in the articles themselves I imagine is not an issue?

JohnB says:

12:12pm | 02/08/11

Yep, that’s fair and a good idea Nick and atthepub. Sensor disenfranchised men on a forum that’s about suicide.

I’ve never heard anything more counter productive or ridiculous. You should both be deeply ashamed of yourselves.

Bev says:

12:32pm | 02/08/11

@Nick, @atthepub
In order to address and hopefuly alleviate a problem you must be prepared to discuss the problem and look at the causes.

In the case of adult male suicide there are two main causes.  The first of these is suicide by farmers and other men living in the country.  Bob Katter is quite passionate about this subject and does what ever he can despite what ever you think of him as a politician.  Though the problem was known about nothing was done until the CWA (women) became vocal and government take any notice. Which says something in itself.

The second major group is divorcing and divorced men and the reason these men suicide is known but has not been talked about.  Changes to family law and CSA legislation have been responsible in a large part for the reduction in rates.  Now with the imminent passage of what is the most draconian family law legislation in the western world many are extremely worried that the rates will climb again.  To suggest that anybody who wishes to talk about this be either censored or go into therapy I find somewhat obscene. The fact that it makes you uncomfortable or clashes with your belief set is no reason to hide the facts.  Doing so will cost lives.

andye says:

12:42pm | 02/08/11

@Bev - “I suggest you Nick find out more about “mens groups” instead of swallowing feminist propaganda about them.”

Haha, what? I cant say I have ever heard much feminist comment on “mens groups” at all. Most of what I learned about them is from their own words. But yeah, feminists are to blame… somehow!

atthepub says:

01:00pm | 02/08/11

JohnB, Sceptic and Bev. I’ve heard your opinion and disagree with your viewpoint. Rather it is you who is disempowering men. Those who rather die than taking care of the families they leave behind are taking a very definite stance. For you to decide that really the decision to take their own life wasn’t theirs is not allowing these men the voice they were given and the decisions they make in their life. You are the ones doing the disempowering, not those of us who pick up the pieces for them after the fall out of their decisions.

Come to the pub once in a while if you need to find out that e v e r y o n e   has problems in their lives, not just farmers and divorced men.

Don’t like it when people say that guys don’t know what they’re doin. I call bullshit on that one.

mike j says:

01:22pm | 02/08/11

Nick/atthepub, you people are ludicrous.

Most of the blogs on this site are written for or about women (even on gender-neutral topics), prejudicing all subsequent discussion, and you people think the big issue is the guys who come on and try to even things up, or dispel all the ridiculous misandrist bullshit that seems to otherwise pass without comment?

If you’d like to settle this, we could get someone to do a meta-analysis of all the articles that have been written for this site over the last couple of years, with an view to gender issues. Of course, that would merely reveal the massive feminist bias of this site, so it’ll never happen. Will it, Tory.

Bev says:

01:24pm | 02/08/11

andye says:12:42pm | 02/08/11
Haha, what? I cant say I have ever heard much feminist comment on “mens groups” at all.
As I said go type some of the mens group names mentioned by myself and others into google and find out about them before you dismiss them out of hand
. If on the other hand you want to investigate what feminists say there a many many sites and utube rants if you go look for them.
http://www.xyonline.net/

JohnB says:

01:44pm | 02/08/11

@atthepub…..“I’ve heard your opinion and disagree with your viewpoint.”

You disagree with what? That male suicide is often a result of parent alienation? Gee that’s a big thing to disagree with when there are a hundreds of studies both here and overseas that confirm it.

Are you suggesting that we can compare a man that’s lost his kids to what? Losing your job? Smashing the car? Your mother in-law doesn’t like you? Ordered the wrong colour brick?

“You are the ones doing the disempowering” .......How do you come up with this stuff atthepub?

I have outlined the exact reasons men are by far more represented in suicide. These are facts. Men I knew have told me before they have done it. First you want to sensor me, now you telling me I’m dis empowering men? What the…...

JohnB says:

02:21pm | 02/08/11

Hmmm…I’d tentatively agree to write on mens issues. What’s wrong with it being anonymous?

Given the vitreole displayed today, I think it would be appropriate.

mike j says:

02:43pm | 02/08/11

Tory: “also because people I’ve approached to write on men’s issues either don’t come up with the goods, or want to remain anonymous and make outrageous claims.”

That’s a reasonable point. Might have more to say about your professional networking than about the status of men’s issues, though.

“we have more on women’s issues than men’s issues, which is because equality is something that’s in the news”

I think you should have a long, hard think about that statement.

I don’t suggest you commission a meta-analysis just to satisfy my personal curiosity, but there is clearly a very large section of this community that is aggrieved by the feminist slant to this site. Obviously, this is not something that concerns you, for whatever reason, but there it is.

I fail to see how it could hurt. At best, it might lead to an interesting article about guerrilla feminism, the accountability of the modern media, and the conflict between ovaries and objectivity.

Nick says:

02:54pm | 02/08/11

Having already made my point I wasn’t going to comment again but I want to take issue with the distortion of my views by Bev and JohnB in particular. I have been involved with troubled youth for nearly three decades, close friends of mine have been heavily involved with men’s mental health, including the establishment of men’s groups and support networks in regional centres.  Their interest and activities extend back to the mid-1980’s.  None of us feel threatened by a feminist conspiracy or associated propaganda, and as a consequence you guys label us stooges or worse.  I’m sorry but I disagree. In fact I agree with atthepub that if anything your behaviour is part of the problem.

Back on topic - the evolution of the commentary under my original remark I think epitomises many reasons why this kind of forum is unsuited to any sensible discussion of suicide.

Anyway, I’ve said all I really wanted to say so I’ll leave you to it.

hot tub political machine says:

03:00pm | 02/08/11

It is one of the interesting phenomenon’s of the Punch – the tendency of every article to somehow morph into a men’s rights discussion. You expect an opinion site to get ax grinders of all persuasions hanging around……..articles that touch on their hobby horse. For some reason though the Punch seems to have been “adopted” by the men’s rights folk more so than any other group.

atthepub says:

03:10pm | 02/08/11

I am not trying to censor you John/Bev, there’s a time and a place for everything. This article is about suicide in general and you and yours manage to make it about male suicide. The article is about suicide; young people are mentioned in it and relatives and the media and you and yours once more hijack the thread with gender issues. You guys bore me to tears with your divisive and oh woo is me attitude.

This is how you and yours disempower men John.

(your words) Guy tells you that he is going to commit suicide, (my words) in effect leaving people behind who rely on him for love and support.

Despite help - no doubt offered - guy commits suicide.

Actions speak louder than words.

You then disempower his action by stating that really this wasn’t his doing and if only blah blah blah ..

You refuse to accept the simple fact that this person wanted to be remembered by the fact that he deserted his family rather than face the life he created.

You disempower by not even allowing him his last action, but even lay the responsibility for that very last action with others in the same way the suicider wouldn’t take responsibility either for his own life and the lives he created.

Not representative of the male population in general, thankfully.

As long as you can only see gender, you are not seeing human beings. We’re all in this together and that is how this should be discussed. For every guy bailing out there’s lotsa guys and girls left behind picking up the pieces .. all of us in this together.

JohnB says:

03:41pm | 02/08/11

@atthepub…“You then disempower his action by stating that really this wasn’t his doing and if only blah blah blah .”..Great points…I agree. It is one of the most selfish things people can do. I’ve read however they’re not in any frame of mind to make such decisions.

“life he created” This I don’t agree with…Maybe hes a drunk, or doesn’t do the dish’s…Either way he doesn’t deserve to be isolated from his kids. AND you know what…The kids deserve to see their father. An often forgotten aspect. Proven problems occur from this isolation.

@Nick “unsuited to any sensible discussion of suicide”...and anyone else that thinks in a forum about suicide of which separated males make up a hugely disproportionate number…It’s ridiculous to suggest we are “hijacking” the debate. It is these issues that MUST be discussed and hopefully some kind of balance in family law restored, and not reversed.

Bev says:

06:20pm | 02/08/11

I would like to thank Tory and the Punch team for placing this article online.  The comment that this place is not the place to discuss this problem I disagree with.  There are serious attempts under way to shine a public spotlight on suicide. Meaning it should not be limited to some ivory tower discussion which most will not see. Public media is the place this discussion should take place as it is here.  Some have claimed suicide is not a gender problem.  Perhaps the term non gender specific would be a better one.  If a problem affected both sexes but women more than men and somebody claimed gender neutrality I’m sure feminists would flay them alive.  While suicide affects all people youth, men and women nobody would claim that males were not the major victims.  So why do some dispute that men should not have a prominent position in any conversation. I have tried to keep my comments as neutral and as level headed as I can but comments like selfish, cowardly, man up, ball up etc or that they should be non emotional robots when in difficult situations and think it through addressed only to men make it difficult. If you think about it this is applying a different standard to men and not accepting they are the same in this respect to all humans.  I think Seth Brundle may well have put it correctly by saying:
“I think that a lot of comments here are overlooking the state of mind that a suicidal person is in.  They are not exactly thinking straight”.

As an aside I do not like being called a “guy” thank you.

marley says:

08:47pm | 02/08/11

@Tory - I follow the Drum as well so, I’d say both sites run a lot of articles that have a feminist perspective, or at least a female one,, but the Drum runs a lot more with a fairly radical feminine viewpoints than the Punch does - and gets a lot more pro-feminist responses, as you’d expect.  I tend to agree that there aren’t enough articles about things specifically of concern to men - male suicide rates, male cancers, male longevity, and of course the big one - family courts.  On the other hand, Erick and his band of followers keep all those issues to the forefront in their comments.

I’d just like to see something on some of these male issues that had a bit more research and data behind it than a lot of the throwaway comments based on dubious research that tend to make up some of the arguments from the commenters.  This whole discussion about suicide is a case in point:  male suicide rates are higher than female suicide rates worldwide - it’s not no-fault divorce or hostile Australian family courts that drive those rates, and we’re wasting time discussing that.  Get an article from someone who really knows what they’re talking about - an academic from one of the universities.  Put the real issues out there.  Not the ones some of the crowd think are the issues.

JohnB says:

07:19am | 03/08/11

@Tory Shepherd…

I’ve never thought this site has a feminist slant, unless you mean the comments? And to be honest, I think the odd feminist comment comes up but is mostly well drowned out. In addition, it makes for healthy debate.

Whatever it is, I love the Punch. Very topical issues. Some; very few contributions leave me wondering how do these people possibly think like that. But that’s the world huh?

Kika says:

10:28am | 02/08/11

Yeah but where? What happens if you are feeling so low you don’t want to talk to anyone? There is nothing online which can help you. Beyond Blue only points you to psychologists who want to make sure you can pay them first before they even get you through to their office, then at 55 mins they open a can of worms and by 60 it’s time to leave. See you next week.

It’s fll of sht man. Its full of sht.

Kate says:

12:48pm | 02/08/11

@Kika - not to mention that when your hour is up, you go home by yourself having just been reminded of everything crappy in your life. That’s always fun to sit there and think about.
The 12 free sessions through Medicare is good for people with a one-off issue, but forget it if you have a long-term mental health condition. 12 sessions is nowhere near enough to deal with depression, anxiety, OCD, eating disorders etc.

Kika says:

01:30pm | 02/08/11

ABSOLUTELY. Plus to get the 12 free sessions you need to pay your quack first and then claim later (well that’s what happened to me) so you need the $180.00 up front there and then. Plus her solutions to my problems wasn’t helpful. When we would talk about my low self esteem - she suggested doing a make up course or losing a few kilos.  When you are feeling like sitting under a bus thinking about enrolling in a make up course doesn’t feel like a priority.

Kate says:

09:53pm | 02/08/11

I got told by a psychiatrist that the reason I have OCD and depression is that I’m secretly in love with my dad and am depressed that he has ‘rejected’ me. What??

Lisa H. says:

01:12am | 03/08/11

Having seen the effects of psychiatry on two seperate nears and dears, I have to say I have my misgivings about the ‘science’.
I’ve posted this link before, but it is a doozy - according to the writer, up to 90 per cent of diagnoses of pre-psychosis are actually false positives! http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12185
Think about the social damage, personal pressure and stigma caused by this!

Kika says:

10:31am | 02/08/11

Counselling only made things worse for me. Much worse to the point I wasn’t talking to my family anymore and made me a very angry person deep down inside. Counselling doesn’t work for everyone.

AFR says:

11:04am | 02/08/11

I tried using a counselling service available to employees at my last firm, but for full-on drepression (which I had), it was out of their depth. I eventually saw a good psych, who witht he existance of Lexapro, mananger to go a lot fo the way to my life getting back in Order.

I feel for you Kika. I hope you are able to find the way that works for you. purely from my own experiences, you need to get on the drugs, as they will assist. There is no shame in it at all. First thing is to change doctors.

Kika says:

01:34pm | 02/08/11

Yeah I had full depression too. I didn’t realise it at the time either but looking back now it was pretty clear. I never once was offered anxiety or depression medication by my doctor though I should have pushed for more assistance in that regard.

Phil says:

02:32pm | 02/08/11

Really?, thinking about how “Selfish” it is for someone to do this to other “family members”
News flash mate, id say a good number of those following through with it would be due to family shit and things that are pushed on them which shouldnt be with zero interest or support from anyone.
Half of the issue around suicide is people like you who will continue to call them “Selfish”, lets remember that they didnt do it for kicks or fun it was the things that were being “inflicted” on the person which has pushed them to this point.
Even in death you cant see that these people were in a lot of the cases the victim who were never supported correctly and you can only feel sorry for the family?

Mike says:

04:17pm | 02/08/11

Pete, it’s exhaustion that gets you in the end, not despair. I’m so very tired. Tired of the crazy highs and the desparate lows. Tired of fighting against them. Tired of people not understanding that I’m sad not for any reason except for just because, that’s all. Tired of putting my mother through all sorts of pain and stress over the years. Some days it just feels like it’s time to let go.

I can beat the despair that comes with the lows, but the cycle speeds up and I find myself fighting to keep control of myself and my mind. The battle can exhaust even the strongest of people. And I’m tired.

So very tired.

Seth Brundle says:

04:52pm | 02/08/11

“Women on the other hand, will use less disfiguring means, but just as lethal nonetheless”.  No thats statistically innaccurate.  Women will make less lethal, less successful suicide attempts.
As for selfishness I think that a lot of comments here are overlooking the state of mind that a suicidal person is in.  They are not exactly thinking straight.

baal says:

06:42pm | 02/08/11

@Mike.
Your are so right.
I am actually on my way the ER becuase I feel like hurting myself. I feel like it becuase I feel the mind begining to spin up and I do not wish to go through it again.
I have clinically killed myself twice and both times I was brought back by luck and science. Both times I just wanted some rest. I just wanted some peace. The finality of death sometimes pales in comparison with the hell of living.
Also to those who blame madness on social issues I went mad as a child. God himself broke me and my family tied held me whilst doctors try and hold me together with string.

Kate says:

09:52pm | 02/08/11

@Mike, you’re spot on. You just don’t think you can handle another day feeling as shitty as you have been. You feel like you’re a massive burden on everyone around you and that they’d be better off without you.
I haven’t had a major low period for a couple of years, back then I did attempt suicide, but was found by my mother. I’m still terrified of hitting that sort of low again. I don’t know if I’ll be able to live through another one.

andye says:

01:08pm | 02/08/11

@fox - What planet do you live on? I am not familiar with this place you are describing at all.

“...believed all the bullshit that was being said, males are at fault for .. well, pretty much all of the ills in the world today”

Men have been in charge of pretty much everything right up until the rise of feminism. But of course none of what happened before is the fault of men, yet everything since is the fault of feminism?

Here is a male thought: grow some balls. Stop whining that 100% of male problems are caused by females. We have enough issues of our own and cause enough trouble on our own (and always have) to be moaning and whining. Your post appears to take absolutely no responsibility at all for your position.

So what country did you go to anyway, where “where women are still treated with the respect they deserve”? When I was in Iran (a country you would think would be the opposite of feminism) I noted firstly that the women were very beautiful, and secondly that in all the relationships I saw the women were firmly in charge. Stereotypes blind you.

marley says:

01:31pm | 02/08/11

@Fox - please provide evidence that male suicide rates are higher now than in the pre-feminist era. Please provide evidence that male suicide rates are lower or the same as female suicide rates in the non-western countries of which you speak.

If you can’t provide evidence of either (and you can’t) your argument is based on a fallacy.  Whatever the cause of high male suicide rates might be, it’s not feminism.

Bev says:

02:27pm | 02/08/11

marley says:01:31pm | 02/08/11
I for one would not claim Asian suicide is lower it is not especialy in Japan as “loss of face” and suicide are part of the culture. For asia generally much male suicide is attributed to the above.  The former USSR has very high rates of suicide and the reasons are not hard to fathom. For the west suicide rose during the depression and was high in Germany at the end of the war. Again the reasons are obvious. Suicide then dropped until the early eighties and then rose again to peak in the late nineties This coincided with the introduction of no fault divorce but does not of it’s self establish a link.  Early rises were attributed to the AIDS epidemic amongst homosexuals when no treatment was available. Very few studies have been done linking male suicide to divorce. There was one done at the Queensland University in the nineties by their suicide study group which attributed 70% of male suicide to family breakdown. There may be others but I don’t know of them.  There has been writings by people such as Warren Farrel and others putting a compelling case but they are not discrete studies.

fox says:

05:07pm | 02/08/11

@andye

“Here is a male thought: grow some balls. Stop whining that 100% of male problems are caused by females. We have enough issues of our own and cause enough trouble on our own (and always have) to be moaning and whining.”

There you have it in a nutshell. When was the last time you heard someone, anyone, telling a woman to grow balls, or to suck it up, or to stop whining. No.. people listen. Taxpayer funded departments exist just to help women. Why not for men, who going by their suicide rates are in a much worse state?

And you say “we” have caused enough trouble. Who is we? This is typical of the attitude I am discussing. All men tarred with the same brush because a minority commit violence against women.. forgetting the fact that they also commit it against men. And women commit it against men too, but any man reporting this should just.. you know grow some balls and suck it up. How many women get locked up for domestic violence? Even if it occurs with witnesses present, it’s usually not even considered during divorce proceedings. Are you starting to see the bias?

I was not around before the rise of feminism, so why should I feel sorry for what men half a decade ago did?

And being “educated” in a school full of self-confessed feminists who would spew their poisonous mantra whenever they could, and who would deride any dissent as misogynistic, I have seen the root causes of the demonization of men, why men accept it and how it affects them.

Male suicides account for about 80% of all suicides. If it were the other way around, newspapers, tv shows, magazines, govt departments and universities would be screaming about it. There would be enquiry after enquiry, countless millions in studies and lots of hand wringing about how badly society treats women. But seeing it’s men that are the victims of most successful suicides (and not mere cries for attention), you hear practically nothing about it.

There isn’t even a male equivalent of feminism. How can anyone see the “equality” in that? And before you tell me to start a group, I would suggest the government that gives millions to womens groups and other affirmative action programs etc gives men a few million so they can start their own groups. Working just to pay the bills leaves little time and money to start any kind of meaningful organisation, let alone one with strong lobbying powers and an influence on the media. Yet women have dozens of such taxpayer funded groups. It’s a whole industry in itself.

Again, where is the equality?  And do you not see how such feelings of being ignored and helplessness could contribute to the vast majority of successful suicides being committed by men? The family courts are a perfect starting point if you seriously want to consider this subject.

marley says:

06:58pm | 02/08/11

@Fox - so what you’re saying is, you can’t provide evidence of any of your claims that feminism is the source of the problem - but you go on insisting that it is, nonetheless.

If you really want to help men with suicide and depression issues, find out what actually causes them - feminism is an easy and obvious target, but it doesn’t happen to correlate with the figures, here or anywhere else. You’re taking the easy road, and not doing the hard yards to understand the real issues, that are in every society and go back 70 or 80 years at least.  Men have a higher suicide rate in the most patriarchal as well as the most egalitarian of societies.  Why?  That’s the question.  And feminism isn’t the answer.

Lisa H. says:

01:07am | 03/08/11

Interesting point, Marley.

It is easy to get sidetracked by this Punch debate about divorced fathers being suicidal, but when I think about the people I know who have been suicidal, or have committed suicide, absolutely none of the men fitted that pattern of being divorced or separated from children.

Two of them were teenagers, and two of them had very supportive and loving wives and families.

The woman I know who committed suicide had become recently engaged to a fabulous fellow.

Where does the isolated divorced man fit into the picture? And how does the divorce play in with other factors? I guess it’s hard to really get the stats to tell the story.

Bev says:

03:00pm | 02/08/11

The suicide rate is as high or higher than the road toll.  Change the question to how many people do you know affected by the road toll? The answer will be similar except in many cases suicide has been hidden and not talked about.  Most will talk about somebody they know who was killed on the road but few are prepared to talk about suicide which is why there is a conversation going on in Australia to bring it out in the open.
As to Melanoma since I have had one (which was caught early) I cannot praise the Peter Mc Callum hospital and staff highly enough.  There are being large amounts spent on research and better treatment. I may well owe my life to the better treatments which have been introduced.

Slick says:

03:04pm | 02/08/11

I knew 2 people and a 3rd was a close friend of my partners family. I tried 3 times, my husband tried, my ex-boyfriends father killed himself, my friends son tried.
So many peoples lives have been touched by suicide. I do not know anyone who has died from Melanoma, I do from lung cancer, car crash, random sickness that took a young lady way before her time, another type of cancer that I don’t know the name of (sarcoma?), old age, drug overdose(accidental), breast cancer, prostate cancer, and I can’t think of others right now, kind of worried that I could think of someone who had died from those things that I knew or dealt with in some way, but no, I do not know, nor have I heard, of someone who died from melanoma.
I have heard of people having them removed though.

Shane* says:

03:28pm | 02/08/11

My point is the disparity in public attention. Melanoma deaths are much much more preventable than suicides. There are 1400 per year. There are 1600 killed on our roads (equally as preventable) and there are around 2000 suicides.

Yet we invest billions in public money in suicide prevention and driver education, but we spent 1/100th of that amount on melanoma prevention.

Kassandra says:

03:57pm | 02/08/11

I have no idea where you get these ideas from. Accurate suicide statistics are impossible to come by and there is no magical annual suicide rate per thousand that is meaningful. You are right it is rare though. Many of the changes reflect changes in official definitions, methods and data classification. The recent decline in suicide rates follows an equally impressive rise over previous decades and started before the widespread use of SSRI antidepressants. Nobody knows the reasons for the rise or the fall with any certainty.

If you want to lower the suicide rate the surest way is to remove the means of suicide. The biggest known contributing factors to decreases in suicide rates have been the change in domestic gas supplies to natural gas, the change from widespread prescribing of barbiturates to benzodiazepines, and the introduction of catalytic converters in modern cars which removes carbon monoxide from exhaust fumes. It is difficult to legislate against ropes and high places. Trying to remove the causes of human unhappiness, demoralisation and despair is even harder.

The “billions” invested in mental health are not directed at clinical depression, though they might be better spent if they were. Most of it is directed at ordinary human unhappiness, anxiety, substance abuse and misfortune rebadged as “mental health problems”. I am not minimising the suffering involved in those things, but modern health care has no special remedy for unhappiness.

Bev says:

05:13pm | 02/08/11

Shane* says:03:28pm | 02/08/11

My point is the disparity in public attention. Melanoma deaths are much much more preventable than suicides. There are 1400 per year.

The problem with Melanoma is that a great percentage are highly aggressive.  By the time it is discovered it is too late it has spread through your whole body pretty much a death sentence.  Previously they just cut them out meaning there was a fair chance they would return.  Now they inject radioactive dye and chase it to the sentinal lymph node. These nodes are removed and biopsied for cancer.  In addition they now take a much larger area of skin and examine it for isolated microscopic cancer cells which was one of the reasons it returned. By doing so they have reduced the chances of reoccurrence to less than 10% a far better outcome than previously.  There is work being done on deriving a vaccine for skin cancer based on enabling research for the cervical cancer vaccine.
Believe me Melanoma is frightening and my occurence would have to rate as the worst moment of my life. I know this is off topic but a lot of work is being done and it is helpful for people to know this.

Lisa H. says:

01:00am | 03/08/11

I know it’s just anecdotal evidence, but I could name at least five known suicides… and none of them met the first three of your four subsets.

I’m guessing they were all clinically depressed though!!

And I’m not involved in the mental health industry, or the health industry in general.

Kika says:

02:35pm | 02/08/11

OMG spelling error! Past not passed… what’s happening to me?

marley says:

03:04pm | 02/08/11

@Kika - I agree we need to talk about.  People who have issues need to feel comfortable talking about them, and getting help wherever they can - from friends, counsellors, doctors, whatever.  The human mind is such a complex thing, and no one solution works for everyone - for you, counselling didnt’ work (though I suspect you had the wrong counsellor - they’re kind of like shoes - you have to find one that fits) - but for others counselling is helpful (I’ve got a stepson going through issues right now - he’s depressed but, I hope, not suicidal - and the counselling is helping him).  For other people, medication might be necessary.  Still others can benefit from meditation, exercise or just talking with self-help groups.  The thing is to keep trying. 

As to why men have a higher suicide rate - I don’t know, except that men do tend to choose more aggressive methods than women.  And men are notoriously reluctant to talk about their feelings (though maybe that’s changing).

I’m glad you’ve found at least one thing that has helped - there will be others. Don’t give up.

Kika says:

03:55pm | 02/08/11

I agree. My Dad has attempted a few times but never went through with it. Nothing violent. Most of the time he tried gassing himself in the car but woke my mum up, most likely on purpose, as he was saying goodbye to the dog. Unfortunately my Mum never took it seriously and would scold him for being too ‘weak’ to do it. Completely wrong. Dad has never sought help and we’ve never discussed it as a family.  I don’t know why. If it was Mum everything would be completely different and the whole world would probably have to owe her for something, whereas no one has really taken Dad’s attempts seriously for some unknown reason. Maybe because it’s hard to talk to him about emotional things at all let alone his own depression and anxieties.

Mike says:

05:47pm | 02/08/11

That is not how it works. Not for everyone anyway. It doesn’t just go away for me. It’s always just there, waiting to rear up and take hold. The times between extremes gets shorter. It will get better, but it will also get worse. It’s a never ending cycle.

Mik says:

09:06pm | 02/08/11

Scroll down for Media and suicide videos

http://www.spinz.org.nz/multimedia/view/listing/

Mik says:

11:51am | 04/08/11

Even in the 18th C -” I hate women because they always know where things are.”
Voltaire

But there is a serious issue of perceived and actual disempowerment within Australian society in general. Suicide is a “problem solving” action taken by people who cannot see any other attainable solution,  - they are too depressed or emotionally/mentally broken down to work on plan a/b/c/d/e/f. etc.  In fact, if their brain self talk has gotten them to the point where it is seen as the only solution, can it even be considered a “choice”?

marley says:

07:43pm | 03/08/11

JohnB - sorry if I infuriate you.  I have absolutely clearly agreed that men have a much higher suicide rate than women, and that that is a major concern which requires on-going investigation.  And I have never said that the views of suicidal men are unimportant.  Where on earth do you get that?

What I have said, and I stand by it, is that that the higher male suicide rate is a pattern that is copied in all countries and all societies, irrespective of divorce laws, the rise of feminism or matriarchal vs patriarchal societies.  Maybe you don’t agree with that, but it happens to be a fact.

Therefore, logic says to me that blaming higher male suicide rates on lousy divorce decisions is not getting to the heart of the problem.  I care about what is really causing men to kill themselves - and I doubt that Australian family court rulings are a factor in Estonia or Japan, yet they both have high male suicide rates.  It’s easy to blame feminism - but its cheating the vulnerable males of a real chance at understanding what is really going on.  And I find that absolutely infuriating.

marley says:

10:00pm | 03/08/11

@John - your whole argument is based on error.  Australia has nowhere near the highest male suicide rate in the world.  Look at any chart.  Scandinavia, Russia, France, Switzerland,
even Canada and NZ, have higher rates of male suicide - some of them much, much higher.  In Australia the male suicide rate is now something like 14 to 16 per 100,000.  There are about 40 countries with higher rates than that. 

And the suicide rate here has dropped from about 24 or 25 in the late 90s. 

Male suicide is a major issue.  No question.  In many, many countries, 75 to 80% of all suicides are by men.  The Australian experience is not unique;  it’s part of a much bigger pattern, and that’s why I don’t believe that you can claim that feminism, family courts or divorce are the common factor for near identical proportions of male to female suicides in countries as different as Korea and Russia, Australia and France, Japan and Trinidad.  There are other factors at play, and blaming everything on bad divorces is to give up on looking at the real issues.

Do I agree with family court systems here as they now stand?  Hell no.  But do I think they’re the major cause of suicide rates here? No. I don’t.  We’re missing something about the male psyche which goes beyond cultures, national boundaries and local laws.  And that’s what we need to understand, to get some sort of handle on the issue.