The situation at Japan’s Fukushima nuclear reactors seems to be improving, but the long-term fallout remains unclear. The Punch spoke to Associate Professor Haydon Manning - head of politics and public policy at Flinders University and a man with a particular interest in nuclear power - and asked him what it means for the political future of nuclear.

Cartoon: Warren Brown

What’s the history of nuclear fear in Australia?

In the Australian community we’ve never had to confront the stark reality - like the French, the Japanese and South Korea have - of real energy shortage. Given our abundance of coal and gas we’ve never had to focus on any of the positive arguments for nuclear power as the answer to a problem or energy security.

Rather, we associated nuclear power with weapons. This is certainly true of someone like me, who as a student marched on the streets in opposition to Olympic Dam in the late 70s. Then in 1979 we had the ‘icing on the anti nuclear cake’ when Three Mile Island had its minor meltdown.

In general, Australians - compared for example to the French or Japanese - have a sense of risk with everything associated with matters nuclear – from weapons through to reactors. Even today people associate the peaceful generation of nuclear power as being not too far removed from being able to build a bomb. That is not the case - but the perceived reality is that nuclear power plants are somehow en route to building a bomb.

As for Chernobyl, we all know now objectively that it was a nuclear power plant with no analogy to contemporary reactors operating in Japan, France, and South Korea but the events last week muddy the waters, making all nuclear power seem not worth the risk.

How does the threat of terrorism further compound the fear?

After September 11, while teaching students about the nuclear power debate and the politics of energy options towards a carbon-free world, it’s often raised that terrorists might penetrate reactor security or somehow fly a plane into one causing a meltdown with its subsequent belching of highly radioactive material.

Both of those scenarios can be dismissed as highly implausible, but still need to be considered in a risk/benefit analysis.

You can’t dispute the fact that there’s risk associated with any large infrastructure. Nuclear power in Fukushima is a large piece of infrastructure supplying a needed resource - a clean and carbon-free form of energy. But nevertheless there is risk.

In relation to nuclear power the decision to accept risk depends foremost on a nation’s basic energy requirements and the options it might have. But also the risk assessment depends on the government, and at an individual level, on assessment of how risky our human contribution to climate change might be.

Does the world need nuclear?

In Australia it’s hardly surprising, with plenty of coal and plenty of gas, we’re most risk averse when it comes to nuclear power. We might be different if we were in the position of the French.

Once the dust settles here nuclear power, and particularly the more advanced designs of Gen III and Gen IV nuclear reactors, will still be entertained by governments because the choices they confront are often very constrained.at. Renewables don’t have the 24/7 ability to deliver base load electricity. They can contribute, but they’re not able to give energy security.

One of the most fundamental questions that comes up is whether we could change society’s ways. You could make a case that the wealthy industrialised world arguably shouldn’t be such a high consuming society.

But Heaven help the party that tries to move us away from ever more consumption and strong year in, year out, economic growth.

Then, when you turn to countries like China and India… it’s inconceivable that the Chinese Government would wake up and say: “We’ve got it all wrong, let’s go back to a peasant lifestyle”.

So where is clean electricity going to come from? You can’t power the future of cities like Beijing or Mumbai on a grid of solar, wind, or geothermal power – it’s inconceivable.

That’s a stark reality that in my instance made me reconsider my earlier opposition to Australian uranium exports.

Does Australia need nuclear?

I’m not a renewable energy expert. But what is evident to me is they’re a long way from being able to deliver that chunky base load our society demands. At best what we can see is a number of renewables supplying power to mines like Olympic Dam or say in the Pilbara in Western Australia.

I really only think the nuclear power debate will be raised again (and it certainly won’t in the short or medium term in light of Fukushima) because of the price of carbon.

Over the next decade or so the price of electricity will increasing a topic of political debate as both a hip pocket nerve issue and as a wider question of limiting carbon emissions. The population will have expanded, the economy will have grown, so we’ll need more power. I expect the hopes for renewable will soon flounder – yes, they will have a role to play – but they will not fill the void of rising costs and the question ‘where is reliable supply to come from?’.

In that context you’d think there could well come a time – I would like it to be sooner rather than later – when Government looks at nuclear power alongside other options.

Will politicians be too afraid to touch on the topic?

It’s certainly off the Labor agenda and the pragmatic Tony Abbott won’t, I suspect, be offering much in support for nuclear power in the future. John Howard was moving towards opening up the debate but during the 2007 campaign Labor’s Anthony Albanese tried to beat up a scare campaign that Howard was going to build a power plant in the suburbs of Sydney. Abbott is sure to remember that so it is clear that the raw electoral politics has killed off any prospect of a balanced consideration of how nuclear power might stack up against other options.

I suspect that debate will now shift in favour of the latest less carbon-emitting gas turbines, the so-called ‘Gas Combined Cycle’ systems and, of course renewable energy, especially geo-thermal ‘hot rocks’ in South Australia. While I believe in renewable energy - and hold a small swag of shares in a couple of hopefuls -  I don’t think, in the end, that over the next couple of decades that they will deliver the Nirvana often predicted.

They will struggle - for a host of reasons - to supply 24/7 energy security. Looking ahead to the middle part of this decade the predictions from energy experts suggest that we are looking at some serious blackouts during the height of summer. Nothing angers voters more than not being able to have a cool house or a cool office.

So electricity supply, at a ‘reasonable price’ will become a much sharper political issue than it already is, and sooner rather than later. Gas and renewable energy options will play a role; it is a pity that nuclear is now off the agenda, just when it was about to make a breakthrough.

132 comments

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    • TimB says:

      05:36am | 22/03/11

      A great article. Thankfully one based on reality and not the pie-in-the-sky idealism of the Greens.

      Unfortunately your answer to “Will politicians be too afraid to touch on the topic?” goes to the core of the issue. And you have to remember the reason why the pollies are scared- The easily spooked electorate. This is where the education needs to happen.

      Chernobyl was the product of human incompetence and crappy Soviet tech. Fukushima, an older model reactor, was hit by one of the nastiest earthquake/tsunami combos we’ve ever seen and it *STILL* didn’t result in the apocalyptic disaster newspaper headlines the world over were hinting at.

      Nuclear, if seriously considered in this country, would be safe. It’s the solution that makes sense. Forget the NBN, if a government really wanted to build inrastructure for the future well being of the country, they can’t go wrong with building a few nuclear plants. 

      I honestly think it will only happen though if both sides of politics come to the table on it. As long as one side or the other decides to oppose it for political advanage, you’re never going to get the majority of the electorate supporting it.

    • chungo mung says:

      06:46am | 22/03/11

      pie in the sky? c’mon mate, there are various tech options that include renewable sustainable options. these, once the tech is developed, will cost less, thus plummeting power prices for the average and the not so average family. people like you just want to dig things up and conquer the power issue in a way that stands to propel the largest chunk of capital. disasters-nuclear are only one side of the coin, there is nuclear waste also - a hell of a problem, and one ‘not so bad’ situation is not a great deal of evidence - plus you are declaring victory before we really know the effects of this event. to get nuclear up to scratch will take huge investment and advancement in tech. as will getting solar or tidal or geothermal up to scratch. so do we invest in the option that requires more mining and leaves us with extremely dangerous and toxic nuclear waste, or do we go for the one that relies on forces that are quite continuous and reliable, like geo-thermal or tides or the sun? i would have thought that this question was easily answered by a genuinely rational and logical mind. but conservative thinking just loves the nuclear idea and has incredible faith in it. i wonder if it is brought to bear on a large scale, how many conservative thinkers will be happy to have a plant in their own backyard - or will they be expecting the poorer demographics to foot that risk?

    • L. says:

      07:30am | 22/03/11

      “these, once the tech is developed, will cost less, thus plummeting power prices for the average and the not so average family.”

      Right… “once the tech is developed”..?? Serioulsy, you want to pin your enegery hopes on something that doesn’t exist?

      But ok, lets use that logic… Why is t that “green” power can come along in leaps and bounds with “development”, but nuke power cannot..??

    • TimB says:

      07:43am | 22/03/11

      “c’mon mate, there are various tech options that include renewable sustainable options. these, once the tech is developed,”

      How about the tech gets developed first, THEN we buy it? Hmm?

      I have no problem with renewables, IF they’re proven to efficiently supply baseload power. Which at the moment they can’t. And I don’t know why people expect consumers to use something so inefficient before it’s ready. If the government was really serious, instead of spending money on subsidising expensive green schemes, they should sink it all straight into R&D.

      For all your complaining about nuclear, it’s proven technology. France uses it for something like 75% of it’s base power without issue and consequently has one of the cheapest electricty costs in Europe. None of your alternatives come anywhere close.
      As for the nuclear waste issue, I suggest you do some research on thorium reactors. There’s a big difference.

      And “declaring victory” on Fukushima? Really? That’s how you see it? What, your side “wins” if a chunk of Japan ends up glowing in the dark?
      This is the problem with the anti-nuke brigade, they seem to *want*  a disaster so they can say “I told you so”.

      PS. At the risk of having Badger’s Law called on me- capitals & paragraphs are your friends. Embrace them.

    • Caz Jones says:

      07:47am | 22/03/11

      Here’s a couple of key omissions that might “earth” your pies-in-the-sky:
      1 this article fails to mention that our own reactor was built on a fault 2. our reactor could not be insured or the Government couldn’t be bothered - which is it? 3. who really trusts this global trend of nuclear-management-by-secrecy and crisis-management-by-incompetence..? Or the-new-reactors-are-roolly-safer line? C’mon…

    • chungo mung says:

      07:59am | 22/03/11

      @l. the logic is that both options (green alternatives or nuclear) need tech advancement but only one option leaves a bi-product of nuclear waste and carries the risk of meltdown and radioactive pollution. all the leaps and bounds will not get rid of the waste, and only reduce the risks. solar power for example doesn’t carry any risks nor does it have a poisonous leftover waste. I’m asking why we are so attracted to the option of nuclear, is it because conservative thinkers are just anti anything that the greens may like?

      and pinning hopes? we already use solar, wind and hydro energy, these exist, this aint star trek stuff we are talking about, it is technology that just needs improvement to become more effective and applicable.

    • Barry says:

      08:44am | 22/03/11

      @Chungo Mung
      “i would have thought that this question was easily answered by a genuinely rational and logical mind. but conservative thinking just loves the nuclear idea and has incredible faith in it.”  Incredible faith?  How about incredible faith in technology that doesn’t yet exist, hasn’t been proven to be able to meet the world’s energy needs, and which a lot of academics claim won’t be able to supply the world’s baseload energy requirement anywhere in the near future.  I think people might have just a tad little bit more faith in nuclear, because you know it’s a proven technology which has actually managed to meet a large-scale amount of energy needs.  Did you even read the article?  What a joke.

    • Ryan says:

      08:49am | 22/03/11

      I know, how about the Greenies be forced to put their money where their mouth is and pay for so-called “green” energy (lets not even mention the ridiculous amounts of carbon dioxide created when creating the raw materials for said “green” technolgy). In fact how about greenies be forced onto a completely separate grid that relies on wind and solar base load power. I am sick to the back teeth of these hypocrites who advocate stupid and unrealistic ideals yet rely on the very things that they despise.

    • chungo mung says:

      09:21am | 22/03/11

      the victory, is the victory against the odds of a disaster. a declaration of the victory of nuclear power and its safety. what an appalling thing to suggest, that someone would perceive a victory if a disaster did occur.

    • L. says:

      09:41am | 22/03/11

      @Chungo
      “@l. the logic is that both options (green alternatives or nuclear) need tech advancement but only one option leaves a bi-product of nuclear waste and carries the risk of meltdown and radioactive pollution.”

      Indeed, but only one of these (nuke) actually works anywhere near the level required to run a country. Let me say that again.. we have to power an entire nation..24/7 Not only when it’s sunny, or when there is a light breeze. 24/7, cloudy, night time, still days, with capacity spare.

      Green solutions cannot do this. If they could, they would be already.

      “and pinning hopes? we already use solar, wind and hydro energy”

      Right…

      Solar….small scale. Too many limitations.
      Wind….On still days? Have you heard the complaints of those living near them?
      Hydro…?? Really….?? The same Greens that want us never to build nukes will be the same Greens who will protest to their dying breath against building any new hydro. Now way they will allow the flooding of an entire valley.

    • Kika says:

      09:48am | 22/03/11

      Tim B - did you know they had planned to decommission the Fukushima plant last year? Do you know they lied and covered up maintenance and repairs on the plant? And do you know the design of Fukushima was a Soviet one? Yep - absolutely no incompetence there.

    • My word says:

      09:53am | 22/03/11

      “Forced to Pay for Green Energy”, eh.

      How ill-informed can one poster be?

      Let’s pass quickly from the punitive undemocratic tone, its too ludicrous to pay more than a glance to.

      What is the actual fact of the matter? Simple.

      Every power company worth its salt already offers Green power options.

      And a great many consumers, Left, Right, and Green, by *free choice* pay the extra to take those options. Simple, really.

      Stick to the facts - that’s what makes robust debate.

    • iansand says:

      10:27am | 22/03/11

      I have a better idea.  Instead of waiting to buy alternative energy sources let’s develop them and sell them.

      Conservatives.  They live up to their name.  Not an entrepreneurial mind amongst them

    • Tator says:

      10:31am | 22/03/11

      Kiki,
      ” And do you know the design of Fukushima was a Soviet one?”
      What a load of crap, the reactors are GE designed and several built by a GE subsiduary and the others built to the same design but by Japanese companies Hitachi and Toshiba, and since when has General Electric ever been a Soviet company.

    • L. says:

      10:33am | 22/03/11

      @Kika

      The reactor was a Soviet design..??? That is complete and utter garbage…

      The reactors for Units 1, 2, and 6 were supplied by General Electric, those for Units 3 and 5 by Toshiba, and Unit 4 by Hitachi. All six reactors were designed by General Electric.[3] Architectural design for General Electric’s units was done by Ebasco. All construction was done by Kajima.

      GE,
      Toshiba,
      Hitachi,
      Ebasco,
      Kajima…Which of these is a Soviet organsiation..?

    • Ryan says:

      10:45am | 22/03/11

      @My word: I am sorry, was that an argument in response to my post, I couldn’t follow since I believe you missed the entire point. My entire point is that the advocation of green base load power by delusional greenies needs to be enforced by making greenies use the very same things they advocate for their own base load power.
      The democracy is not eroded, the democracy is in the education. Put your money where your mouth is and do what you advocate, base load power from solar and wind, I can’t wait to see you lot sharing that around. Oh and no candles see, wouldn’t want you adding CO2 to the atmosphere.

    • TimB says:

      10:50am | 22/03/11

      @ Kika- And what happened? It took an earthquake and tsuanami of incredible proportions to bring us to…whatever it is that’s actually happened. And we still haven’t come anywhere near the scale of Chernobyl.
      If that doesn’t prove how safe the newer & more reliable designs are, I don’t know what does.

      @ My Word

      “And a great many consumers, Left, Right, and Green, by *free choice* pay the extra to take those options”

      Really? “a great many”? You want to put that into numerical terms? Even percentages would be nice. More to the point , how exactly do you know the political affiliation of this “great many”? Do the electricity companies get people to tick a box when they sign up for renewable sourced power?

      For someone who wants people to “stick to facts”, it would be nice if you actually provided some.

    • Kika says:

      11:15am | 22/03/11

      @TimB - wouldn’t you say the failure of the plant to withstand that given it was on the east coast of Japan was negligent to say the least? Failing to prepare a back up plan in case the cooling systems went down (reliant on the ocean) was negligent to say the least.

      @L

      Nice wikipedia’ing. The plant was built in 1967 and went online in 1970. Ok, so I misunderstood the basis of the design (American vs Soviet). I concede that point. However, Reuters reported yesterday:-
      1. The plant was stocked of more uranium then it was designed to hold
      2. Mandatory safety checks were omitted in the past decade
      3. Engineers who designed the plant 50 years ago never designed it to hold the capacity of spent fuel as it had
      4. At the time of the earthquake the plant had 6 years supply of fuel rods
      5. Instead of investing in appropriate waste solutions, they stored the spent fuel inside the reactors

      Negligence?

    • TimB says:

      11:18am | 22/03/11

      ” I have a better idea.  Instead of waiting to buy alternative energy sources let’s develop them and sell them.”

      What do you think I said? This is the problem with your childish ‘I don’t read what certain people write because I can’t handle opinions I don’t agree with ’ philosophy. Did you miss this iansand?:

      “I have no problem with renewables, IF they’re proven to efficiently supply baseload power. Which at the moment they can’t. And I don’t know why people expect consumers to use something so inefficient before it’s ready. If the government was really serious, instead of spending money on subsidising expensive green schemes, they should sink it all straight into R&D.”

      Go for it. Develop the tech. Then sell the tech when it’s ready for proper usage. But don’t go trying to tax consumers in an attempt to get them to switch to a product that’s not finished yet.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:52am | 22/03/11

      @Kika, let’s say Japan was negligent - for the purposes of my next question.  What makes you think that Australia would be as well?  What makes you think we wouldn’t look at 50-odd years of hindsight and say ‘Hmmm.. how can we take the best of nuclear, and the best of renewable, and make a plan that works for us?”  You’re selling the Australia scientific community short by assuming that they couldn’t do it without there being a major catastrophe.  You’re not presenting a cosiderable case, you’re just stoking the fires of scaremongering.

      Also, I noticed yesterday you were going on about how living next to nuclear reactors increases childhood cancers etc.  What a load of rubbish.  Go and read some research conducted by ANSTO and the NSW Dept of Health about the risks of people living next to the Lucas Heights reactor.  Cancer rates there and cancer rates anywhere else in Australia are exactly the same - and being that childhood cancer is quite rare, it’s an excellent example that can be plotted easily, because spikes are so obvious.

      Look, I get that you’re into saving the environment, blah blah, but trust me, frequent blackouts in your home because the power load is so unreliable, is going to shit you to tears.  Humanity is about moving forwards.  Cars that run on batteries and need charging up and power that flicks off at the first sign of trouble is not what humanity is about.  That’s going backwards.

    • My word says:

      12:09pm | 22/03/11

      For TimB, too busy perhaps to bother checking his own attempted rebuttal, happy to oblige.

      According to the national Green Power site,  in 2008, over 925,000 customers were using one of the accredited Green Power options offered by accredited suppliers.

      Of these, 3/4 of a million were customers of major national suppliers eg EnergyAustralia, Jackgreen, Origin Energy and TRUenergy.
      (2008 report at http://www.greenpower.gov.au/)

      Likely political affiliation? Well, among other things, from the numerous repeated finger waggings here on The Punch, from posters plainly of the Right, claiming they do!

      And Green Power as such? Nothing to do with politics.

      GreenPower: a joint initiative of ACT, NSW, SA, QLD, VIC and WA government agencies, running a government accreditation program for renewable energy, to be supplied by energy providers to customers on a consistent and documented basis.

      Facts? There ya go. Them’s the facts. Simple as, really

    • Ben81 says:

      12:11pm | 22/03/11

      kika “wouldn’t you say the failure of the plant to withstand that given it was on the east coast of Japan was negligent to say the least?”

      One of the largest quakes recorded and a tsunami?  I think that would be one hell of a stretch to say the least. 
      And I’d define ‘withstanding’ the disaster as holding up well enough that it doesn’t actually kill people, a pretty logical and fair standard to set given the circumstances.

    • Troy says:

      01:12pm | 22/03/11

      @chungo mung says, Google Gen4 Nuclear and have a look at how far advanced Nuclear has come. Gen4s actually use the waste and turn it into power, so there is no nuclear waste.  The Geo-thermo plant in SA has failed already, and yes they are still trying to make it work and yes maybe in the far off future there may be some hope for it, but it is miles off doing anything in the near future, as for having a Nuclear plant in my back yard, I would jump at the chance and I would be very rich for it. Wind power is already proving disastrous to anyone who has the misfortune to live withen a couple of ks of the windmills, and the windmills are butchering our bird life. Solar tech is coming along, but will never provided base load power as it only works when the sun out. Hydro is a interesting one though that we dont here much of, and excuse my ignorance but I have alway wondered why the Greens are so opposed to dams with hydro power? The hoover dam provideds a base load power for 3 states totally Carbon Dioxide free and there must be a reason that no one has brought up that idea yet in Australia.

    • TimB says:

      01:14pm | 22/03/11

      @ My Word, if you’re the one making the argument it’s up to you to provide the facts. I don’t see why you thought I should have to research the “facts” behind your argument.

      And unfortunately despite your handy link I wasn’t able to find the part you copied. I did find this though:

      http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/LookupAttach/4102.0Publication25.03.099/$File/41020_ renewable energy.pdf

      There’s a nice little graph on the last page that shows the support of “Green Power” as a percentage. I draw your attention to the massive disparity between all the customers who *claim* they’re willing to pay extra (between 25-40% across the states) and the ones who actually do: About 5%.

      Five. Freaking. Percent. This to you is a “great many”? Wow. That doesn’t even reach half of the Greens supposed voter base. And if, as you claim, this number is actually split further across the political spectrum (although why you think surveying a few people on The Punch counts as a statistically significan argument I don’t know), that means you’re actually looking at maybe 2-3% of customers *tops* that voluntarilly pay extra & and vote Green.

      Meaning that despite your attempt at argument, Ryan is correct. Most Greens voters are big on words but astonishingly short on actually backing them up with actual action. Making them hypocrites of the highest order.

      How’s that for facts?

    • Troy says:

      01:25pm | 22/03/11

      @Kika says, did you also know that the Fukushima plant plant was built to withstand a earthquake up to a magnatude 8, and a sunami up to 9 meters and it managed to survive 8.9mag and 10.9 meter sunami. Also this disaster as cost the lives of over 20,000 people and yet not one life has been lost due to the Nulcear plant. Just to bring this into prespective.

    • Kika says:

      03:07pm | 22/03/11

      @ Troy - no deaths ‘yet’.

      I think the guys inside the plant are aware that they may die as a result of the radiation. That will take some time.

    • TheRealTroy says:

      03:51pm | 22/03/11

      @Troy - a quick google of Gen IV reactors shows them to be at a theoretical stage, not to be ready for 20 or so years.  By then, if we tried, we could have renewables coupled with energy savings initiatives easily handling most of our needs.  btw are you the same guy who keeps commenting about Thorium reactors?

    • My word says:

      04:11pm | 22/03/11

      TimB implied ( “Really? “a great many”?)  there were few Green Power customers. His choice not to back that up.

      “the part I copied”? No copy. Just added the Supplier tables customer counts. Tough.

      2008 report not at the Green Power link? Jeezus. Menu: “Our Audits and Reports”.

      TimB’s link: Broken. The ABS report is 4613.0 - Australia’s Environment: Issues and Trends.
      At http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4613.0Chapter35Jan+2010
      Or: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3101.0

      Summary
      “household awareness of GreenPower increased to 52% in 2008, only 33% were willing to pay extra for green power. 5% of households were already paying extra for GreenPower in March 2008.”

      “GreenPower refers to electricity generated from approved renewable energy resources such as solar, wind, biomass and hydroelectricity commissioned after 1 January 1997. GreenPower enables consumers to pay a premium for electricity generated from renewable sources. As at March 2009, there were 945,491 household and 38,533 commercial customers paying for GreenPower”

      5% would be fine, if that represented well over 900,000 customers. But in 2009 there’s about 8 million Oz households (ABS Yearbook) and 945,000 Green Power customers (above).

      Making 11% of households. The 5% may be a statistical oddity. Nearly a million households and nearly 40,000 businesses is fine by me.

      Green Power vs Party:  my point - use crosses the political spectrum. TimB wants pretend Party numbers matter. Tough. As pointless as his sneerings.

      Lastly, my vote, my business. No business of TimB’s. And besides,  he’s wrong.

      Plain facts.

    • B of Kedron says:

      05:35pm | 22/03/11

      I’ll back nuke power and the first one can be between Sydney or Melbourne. Now what can we do with the nuclear ‘clean’ energy radio active waste product. It can be kept on the nuclear power station site.
      Now which seaside location between Sydney and Melbourne wants the power station?

    • TimB says:

      05:40pm | 22/03/11

      @ My Word- YOU said there was “a great many”. I questioned it and YOU had to back that up.

      Not sure what happened with the link, the rest of it is there, you simply have to manually copy it. Do so and look at the graph. You can see the 5% figure there.

      “5% would be fine, if that represented well over 900,000 customers. But in 2009 there’s about 8 million Oz households (ABS Yearbook) and 945,000 Green Power customers (above). “

      So on one hand they quote 5%, but as you show using the ABS figure for households , that figure doesn’t add up. Which means your problem can be solved by dumping your assumption that “customers” is synonomous with “households”.  Perhaps it’s explained by multiple bills going to individual households. Some dwellings do have multiple metres for various reasons. I know I lived in one of them, it helped with splitting costs.

      So I think we can safely assume 5% is pretty accurate.

      And my point was to back up Ryan’s: Ryan pointed out that Greens were hypocrites. That they advocate all these things but don’t put their money where their mouth is. And the statistics of a mere 5% take up rate of green power proves that point utterly.

      You contested Ryan’s point by calling him “ill-informed”  You tried to do so by claiming a “great many” people voluntarily take up green power across the political spectrum. We’ve proved that a “great many”  do not in fact take it up, realistically the figure is 5% and even using your best figure you have a mere 11%. That’s still not a “great many”.
      And you pointing out that green power is taken up across the political spectrum (assuming you’re right) in fact strengthens Ryan’s position, because it means even *less* Greens are involved in voluntarily purchasing green power.

      So despite your declaration of me being “wrong”, Ryan and I are in fact completely correct. Now *that’s* a fact

      PS. I don’t care what your vote is, I never asked and it’s immaterial to this discussion.

    • My Word says:

      09:10pm | 22/03/11

      Meh.  Whichever way you look at it, whichever source you use, 945,000 households are using Green Power.

    • TimB says:

      09:45pm | 22/03/11

      And whichever way you look at it, your assertion of “a great many” is wrong,  and more importantly you were wrong to call Ryan uninformed when his point has been so clearly proven by the numbers you yourself spout..

    • Peter says:

      10:29pm | 22/03/11

      One can douse a Coal fire used in generating electricity however such cannot be said for Nuclear.  As for new technology able to produce base load power 24/7 cheaper than burning Coal to turn water into steam, and cheaper than using Nuclear to turn water into steam, its allready in the hand so of Labor, Coalition amd the Greens. However it impacts upon so much current out of date technology in place Politicians are frightened to even mention it out of fear to upsetting Commercial entities allready in place spewing Carbon into the attmosphere. To requote (including Punch)  that which continues not to go away,,,, “Brown and Gillard can dance sing and whistle, but nothing takes away the truth each has a copy of the New Technology Obahma, Gillard and Brown so welcome. The Carbon tax purpose is to reduce Carbon emissions. Good governance and due diligence require that to be at least cost and most benefit to the punter. Half price electricity and no Carbon is a good starter. Match that with Combett Coal has a long and healthy future against the New Technology having no need of Coal and see what the sums show up.”

    • My word says:

      11:43pm | 22/03/11

      945,000 households in 2009.
      40,000 businesses.
      Nearly a million users of Green Power - in 2009.
      Sourced, documented, cited and quoted.

      That, in anyone’s language except TimB’s, is a great many. He’s sought ineffectively and in vain for a smaller number, and now resorts to tricks to make it seem smaller.

      Forced to use Green Power? What a farcical, shameful proposition by the ill-informed Ryan.  A million users by free choice gives the lie to that.

      Spouting is it. Like the snide swipe about Green voters. Pah.

      TimB can wriggle,  he can dodge, he can weave. He can slide away from the insults he himself has posted. 

      The numbers are there, in black and white.  A million users of Green power. The facts speak for themselves.

    • My Word says:

      12:17am | 23/03/11

      Further, 945,000 households represents, at around 2.5 persons per household, something approaching 2.5 million people.

      As far as the %age of households is concerned,  the base figures and the apparent discrepancy in the ABS report are as I have been at pains to point out.

      The remedy is straightforward - I shall write to the ABS and ask for an explanation.

      These numbers are too big, and too important, to let TimB get away with misrepresenting them.

    • TimB says:

      05:40am | 23/03/11

      @ My Word, Ryan isn’t saying ANYONE has been forced to use green power.

      See this is your problem. Despite this going on for a day, you still dont understand his point. He’s saying IF the Greens care so much about what they’re spruiking, why don’t they all pay for it? From *your numbers* it can be determined that a great many Greens do not in fact pay. That’s why he’s sick of their hypocracy and that’s why he reckons they *should* be FORCED to pay. To actually see the effect of the policies they advocate.

      Now I don’t agree that anyone should be forcd to do anything, but I agree that the Greens are mostly hypocrites.

      As for the debate over numbers, I’m not misrepresenting anything. I’m putting it in perspective. That’s what percentages are good for. Is a million households a great many in a nation of 22 million people? 50 million? A world of 6.5 billion? Think about the other side of the coin. If “a million housholds”  choose to take it up, how many are there that are choosing *not* to take it up? By *your own numbers*, at least 9-19 times more (working on green power figures of 5-10%)  people are choosing not to take up the green option than those who are.

      The only one misrepresenting numbers here is you. By referring to the raw numbers as “a great many” you imply that the take up green power is far more widespread than it is. But in reality your “great many” pales in comparison to the “far greater many” that have chosen NOT to take it up.

      You’re trying to argue that a decidedly minority position is somehow significant when placed next to a large majority. You can keep trying but you will fail each and every time.

      PS. Get off your high horse, you started the insults, claiming lack of facts and being ill-informed. Then you spouted a fact-less rebuttle. It wasn’t until I pushed you that facts started coming out and they still don’t paint the picture you would have us believe, no matter how you spin them.

    • My Word says:

      07:01am | 23/03/11

      No insults from me. Ill-informed is a plain and correct description of Ryan’s position.

      Let ‘s have Ryan speak for himself - here we go:
      “Ryan says:08:49am | 22/03/11
      I know, how about the Greenies be forced to put their money where their mouth is and pay for so-called “green” energy “

      That is Ryan’s proposition - farcical though it is - and it is that which I have consistently, factually, taken issue with.

      TimB can keep on making more and more elaborate misrepresentations of what I’ve said, and of the properly sourced data I’ve correctly presented, but it wont wash.

      If TimB takes robust rebuttal of a poor argument as personal insult, that’s his lookout.

      I’ll look forward to an answer on the correct proportion of Australian households for those 945,000 households using Green Power by free choice in 2009.

    • The Badger says:

      07:45am | 23/03/11

      my word
      timmie knows he’s toast, he just doesn’t know when or have the sense to lie down. Does it all the time. His version of winning an argument is getting the last post in.

    • TimB says:

      08:36am | 23/03/11

      @ Badger, I’m “toast”? Saying so doesn’t make it so. I think I’m making my point quite well even if My Word doesn’t want to admit it.

      @ My Word, how can you have a factual problem with what Ryan said?

      He’s made a suggestion, based on the fact that the Greens are hypocrites. There’s nothing to prove or disprove about the suggestion itself. You can take issue with the extremeness of the suggestion. And/or you can try and argue against the “Greens are hypocrites” viewpoint which I assume you were trying to do.

      Unfortunately for you, the raw numbers which *you supplied* show that there must be a large percentage of Green voters who are in fact hypocrites and *do not pay extra* for Green power.

      So there is nothing “ill-informed” in Ryan’s post. You attempted to try and claim there was with your assertion that “a great many” people already voluntarily pay extra for green power. Unfortunately for you, your “great many” does not represent enough people to cover the entire Green voter base, even if you assume that everyone signing up for the schemes vote Green.
      And considering you yourself told me that people using green power are split across the political spectrum (something you have no proof of by the way beyond Punch anecdotes), that weakens your argument even further.

      The numbers,*your numbers* do not lie. Green voters in general remain hypocrites. Ryan is correct, I am correct, and you my friend remain wrong.

      PS. Exactly how have I misrepresented what you said? On the contrary, I’m using your exact numbers and arguments to fuel my own counter argument.

    • Gregg says:

      11:46am | 23/03/11

      @chungo
      ” or tides or the sun? i would have thought that this question was easily answered by a genuinely rational and logical mind. but conservative thinking just loves the nuclear idea and has incredible faith in it. “
      Love the sentencing and paragraphing but content is lacking.
      . You ought to catch up with the latest nuclear station developments which also includes recycling and minimisation of waste issues, there having been much development proven and far more so than any potential for renewables and though development for Solar, Wind, Tidal has all occurred, there are limitations just as there is for geothermal and hydroelectric.

      It is not that conservative thinking just loves the nuclear concepts but that many rational and logical minds in some countries are considering how future power demands can be best met.
      Any Australian initiatives for either new coal or nuclear for major base load stations is stifled by lack of the rational and logical processes.

    • sue says:

      06:49am | 22/03/11

      Unfortunately there are huge problems in Japan, but what disgusts me most is that it is the “ordinary” worker who is called upon to clean up the mess.
      Was it the “profit” or “hip pocket nerves” that meant safety inpections were not complied with. Maybe if the Board of Tepco was handling the situation on site than just maybe the nuclear debate could be forwarded.
      But while it is seen that profits are privatised and accidents are nationalised the debate on nuclear wll not be progressed in Australia.

    • Left Overs says:

      07:32am | 22/03/11

      How can nuclear ever be safe when the uranium left overs last for hundreds of years?  Will this be our gift to our grand children?  If we lowered the population of the world, renewable energy could save the whole situation.

    • Greg says:

      07:45am | 22/03/11

      Please name a renewable energy source that could power Sydney , Melbourne or any of our major cities.

      Please explain how you intend to lower the world’s population.

      It would appear that the ALP want to leave your grandchildren the nations biggest debt to pay off!

    • L. says:

      07:51am | 22/03/11

      ” If we lowered the population of the world, renewable energy could save the whole situation. “

      “We”..?? Who is this we..?

      But it’s an idea.. Ok, you start. How do we get all countries on board to lower their populations, taking into account that in some cultures the bigger the family, the better your standing in your communtiy.

      I’m listening.

    • Elphaba says:

      08:08am | 22/03/11

      “If we lowered the population of the world, renewable energy could save the whole situation.”

      Speaking of pie in the sky ideas - how on Earth would you intiate that? How could you license breeding?  Never going to happen.

      Who says we can’t come up with a solution for the waste?  Or pioneer a reactor that deals with the waste issue?  How is nuclear an item you can take off the table, but ‘lowering’ the world’s population a realistic one?

      Besides, I do’t thik the capacity for renewable energy to supply the population has anything to do with numbers of people, and everything to do with the unreliability of the resource itself.  If the sun doesn’t shine, and the wind doesn’t blow - then what?  You’ll happy deal with the incovenience of blackouts because you’re saving the planet?  That’s moving backwards. What a waste of human achievement if we move backwards instead of forwards.

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:36am | 22/03/11

      @Leftovers, are you volunteering you and yours to help “lower the population”?

      It is absolutely idiots like you that ruin it for those genuinely pushing for sensible renewable energy research & development, and goes to the heart of why the Green party only gets 14% of a vote in an election where the other two parties are such useless basket cases.

      Don’t you understand how easy you make it for everyone else to be anti-green?  You are being ANTI-HUMAN!!! You are advocating death on a massive scale, based on the assumption that we are a plague on the planet.

      Yet you are not ending your own life in support of your own ideals.  Hypocrite!

    • Kika says:

      09:45am | 22/03/11

      Not just hundreds - uranium 238 has a half life of 4.47 billion years and Uranium 235’s half life is 704 million years.

    • L. says:

      10:01am | 22/03/11

      “Not just hundreds - uranium 238 has a half life of 4.47 billion years and Uranium 235’s half life is 704 million years. “

      Then don’t use Uranium.

    • David C says:

      10:15am | 22/03/11

      ease up Stalin, how do you intend to reuce the population of the world?

    • PTom says:

      12:30pm | 22/03/11

      @Greg.
      Why do we need to build massive Power station when we can have multiple small renewable sources that can be built on every house, every building, every park and water area.

      Small things can be done around the cities like weirs with generators, Solar street lights, Residential Wind turbines on tall buildings, Computer centres that uses outside air in winter intead of cooling internal air. Large industral area like Port Kembla or Pilbara are using
      wave or tidal power station.

      This also reduce the need for long transmission lines and less risk of whole areas being blacked out.

      There is no reason to build more polluting Power Station.

      @L.
      If not Uranium then what. A nuclear reactor built on new technology? How much would that cost?

    • L. says:

      01:07pm | 22/03/11

      “If not Uranium then what. A nuclear reactor built on new technology? How much would that cost?”

      Thorium..

      Expensive, but any more than the mythical R&D bucks the Greens want someone to put into “renewable power” with a true ondemand, reliable baseload capacity..?

    • Troy says:

      01:38pm | 22/03/11

      @Left Overs, Your question is a valid one, so google “Gen 4 Nuclear” and check out the lastest Nuclear reactors that actually use the waste and turn into power. But I guess your sugestion would work to, let just set off a Nuclear bomb in lets say China or India and take out 1 billion people and all the Greenies would be happy>

    • The Badger says:

      02:12pm | 22/03/11

      Troy
      Where are the nuclear reactors that “actually use the waste and turn into power” currently producing base-load power?

    • B says:

      11:16pm | 22/03/11

      Ah ha!!! Knew it.  Its the Fabian conspiracy again!!!  Lower the population.  What?  Through ritual killings.

      I’m sure the greenies would go for this.  But certainly would not want to be the one killed!!!!

    • Gregg says:

      12:16pm | 23/03/11

      @PTom
      You’ve kind of answere your earlier questions with your last statement.
      ” Why do we need to build massive Power station when we can have multiple small renewable sources that can be built on every house, every building, every park and water area.

      Small things can be done around the cities like weirs with generators, Solar street lights, Residential Wind turbines on tall buildings, This also reduce the need for long transmission lines and less risk of whole areas being blacked out.

      There is no reason to build more polluting Power Station.

      How much would that cost? “
      You really do need to look at power supply issues in far more detail and with real knowledge and not desired outcomes.

      ” Computer centres that uses outside air in winter intead of cooling internal air. Large industral area like Port Kembla or Pilbara are using
      wave or tidal power station. “
      I’d reckon that most buildings in winter are actually wanting heating rather than cooling but for either, it’s all about reverse cycle airconditioning that does in fact make use of outside air.
      Some new buildng designs do have high tech and ebvironmentally friendly principles inherent in their designs and services.
      Wave/tidal power is still really in its infancy as far as development goes and already the limitations are known to be significant.

    • Dash says:

      07:38am | 22/03/11

      The ALP and Greens are not interested in Nuclear. A clean energy source such as nuclear would remove the need for their tax! Why would they talk about something that will destroy their tax argument?

      The world’s appetite for coal is increasing not decreasing. Gillard tells you that China is investing in alternatives but she fails to tell you that China’s coal dependency is on the increase and sharply! And Australia is cashing in.

      The carbon tax is a fraud on the Australian people. It is using the environment as an excuse to raise taxes. It will have nil impact on the global environment. It is nothing more than a socialist exercise in wealth redistribution.

      The government now wants to tax carbon as well as the profits of mining companies that sell the stuff? That just demonstrates what a load of bullshit they are dishing up to Australians. And yet some peoople believe it!

      Wind and solar are great options to supplement our power needs. However, they are not viable alternatives! You cannot power any of our major cities with that technology! They are inefficient and ineffective. Companies will just pass the increased costs on and then the ALP and greens will decide who gets compensated. And they will decide that on the basis of income and demographics, not on pollution.

      Two families polluting exactly the same, descriminated against on the basis of income, has nothing to do with “punishing the polluters”. And anyone who believes otherwise is so stupid it’s not funny! I cannot believe those in the mainstream meadia pushing this nonsense.

    • Bloggs says:

      08:58am | 22/03/11

      The Socialists are redistributing wealth.  A CO2 tax is just another method to help achieve this.

    • Bill Door says:

      07:51am | 22/03/11

      Won’t happen. One body wants a nuclear power palnt in their backyard.

      Badgerys Creek was earmarked as Sydney’s second airport almost 25 years and it still hasn’t been built. Because on political party wants to upset the locals. A population of just 721 I might add.

      If they can’t build an airport. What changes have they of building nuclear reactor with all it’s baggage?

    • Bloggs says:

      08:17am | 22/03/11

      Renewables will not cut it for a very long time, if ever.  Our needs are too great.

      Burning fossil fuel is a non-event given the accent on CO2.

      So nuclear power is the only remaining sensible source of power for years to come.  But governments are scared of the political issue so it will not happen.

      The answer is easy: we will continue to burn coal and we will continue to sell coal and all the while we will wring our hands in anguish, and the Government will tax us massively for the privelege.

      It really is as stupid as that in real life.

    • NUKEPUKE says:

      09:41am | 22/03/11

      Sensible? Yep really sensible. It’s not like there are ANY cons with having nuclear power! I for one am all for nuclear power. I will let my great-great-great-great grandkids think about the solutions to the waste, the toxicity and cancer clusters around the plants (not to mention the inevitable diasters that will keep occurring from time to time) and I will be able to wipe my hands clean knowing full well I will never be alive then to worry about it. Just like coal. Not my problem! Let them deal with it.

    • Adam Diver says:

      10:14am | 22/03/11

      @ Nukepuke, god help you if you believe in global warming, because you are s**t our of luck. Unless, you advocate a massive reduction in living standards world wide.

    • Kika says:

      10:36am | 22/03/11

      Well, yeah that’s the thing. IF global warming exists we’re in the sht. If we build nuclear power plants we’re in the sht. If we don’t invest in cleaner, safer sources of renewable energy we’re in the sht. If we don’t manage our populations we’re in the sht. If we don’t invest in the third world to allow them a decent standard of living we’re in the sht because if we don’t breed they certainly will continue to. But it doesn’t matter because I will be dead then!

      Like bacteria. Bacteria will breed and breed on the availability of nutrients they need to survive. They won’t stop. When the availability of nutrient dies out, they do too. We are no different. The same thing will happen with us. When times are good we live arrogantly and think we’re invincible and go along our merrily little lives doing whatever we think is good for us right then and now. Time will come when we’ve exhausted our planet based on our own greed and disregard for the earth that sustains us and we will slowly but surely die out.

    • neil says:

      11:32am | 22/03/11

      @Kika
      So What? We will all be long gone by the time that happens

    • vje says:

      09:11am | 22/03/11

      Nuclear is clearly the most obvious example of sh*tting in your own nest.  How many ‘examples’ of failed or near-failed nuclear facilities do we need to learn this lesson.  Nuclear should never be considered a feasible option in Australia when we have so many other renewable options available.  A price on carbon will increase the incentive for business to come up with viable alternatives.  Nuclear is not one of them.

    • Macon Paine says:

      10:04am | 22/03/11

      Troll much?

      How many examples of failed or near failed nuclear facilities can you name?

      Nuclear power is ready, it’s cheap and it’s very low emission. I have no problem with the development of renewables as they will be important in the medium to long term but a sense of perspective is needed here. If we accept the premise that we need to cut emissions drastically now, then it is irrational to pin our hopes on technology that simply isn’t ready and ignore the technology that is (and has been for decades).

    • Kika says:

      10:41am | 22/03/11

      Arguably it’s also irrational to place your hopes on a source of power which when it fails (unintentionally or intentionally) it fails on a MONUMENTAL scale. I’d rather my power going down for a few hours because there’s a problem with the substations then having to evacuate my home and flee hundreds of kilometres away to get away from a reactor meltdown.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:20pm | 22/03/11

      @Kika “Arguably it’s also irrational to place your hopes on a source of power which when it fails (unintentionally or intentionally) it fails on a MONUMENTAL scale.”
      Well no, a common theme of nuclear ‘disasters’, with one obvious exception, is that they tend not to harm or kill anyone.

      “I’d rather my power going down for a few hours because there’s a problem with the substations then having to evacuate my home and flee hundreds of kilometres away to get away from a reactor meltdown.”
      You have more chance of winning the lottery a few times than that happening, but would you rather live next to a coal power plant and have an extremely high probability that you’ll get some kind of respiratory illness or cancer shortening your life just through its normal operation, or a nuclear plant that has a miniscule chance of a failure that won’t even affect your health in a disaster?

      It just doesn’t make sense to argue against nuclear power using safety as your reason, and you can’t do it without applying a plain as day double standard.

    • Kika says:

      09:57am | 22/03/11

      Nuclear reactors are disasters waiting to happen. I don’t care what the short term benefits of it are. Coal seemed like a good idea at the time, thalidamide seemed like a good idea at the time, using mercury in medicine seemed like a good idea at the time,  using lead in cosmetics seemed like a good idea, nuclear power seemed like a good idea at the time… how much more are we going to subject ourselves to this kind of bllsht before we just wipe ourselves off the planet?

    • L. says:

      09:58am | 22/03/11

      “Nuclear should never be considered a feasible option in Australia when we have so many other renewable options available.”

      name them…

      Name the renewable options “AVAILABLE” (your word) that could meet Australia’s baseload power requirement….

    • iansand says:

      10:30am | 22/03/11

      I have a plan.  Let’s invent them and sell them.

    • L. says:

      12:43pm | 22/03/11

      “I have a plan.  Let’s invent them and sell them.”

      Yep.. it’s just that easy… <eye roll>

      And in the intrim..??

      Seriously, what do we do in the decade or two that we make some (if any) progress in solar or wind..?

    • PTom says:

      02:34pm | 22/03/11

      How about.

      Thermal Solar plants
      Solar Panal farms
      Residental Solar panels
      Wind Turbine Farms
      Residental Wind turbine
      River flow turbine (older then coal)
      Tidal generators
      Wave generators
      Hydro dams
      Methane Gas (off sewage)
      Biofuel
      Biomass
      Geothermal
      Hot rocks
      Water power Cars

      I guess there is a few more to be added over time.

    • Gregg says:

      12:27pm | 23/03/11

      @PTom,
      All the renewables you mention are probably good collectively for a minimal percentage of power supply and that only when the sun shines, the wind blows or we have enough rain for rivers to flow and dams to be used for hydro.

      If you’re happy to live in a society where you’ll rely on renewables, you could always move out to the sticks somewhere and try it but make sure your trial does not include using any powered services like transport, medical, shops etc.

      Your type of views are just so unreal.

    • Duff says:

      10:07am | 22/03/11

      Interesting article.  I would like to hear from anybody who has a handle on the actual cost of building, maintaining and operating a nuclear power plant (including decomissioning) as compared to other options.  Is it an expensive option or does it save money?  A quick check on Wiki indicates costs of over USD$7000/kWe for nuclear power compared to around USD$2500/kWe for coal fired, I think.  Very hard to assess renewable energy cost, but would like to know from anyone who has the info.  I’d love to see an article that draws this all together in clear, concise manner, for people like me.

    • Mick says:

      10:09am | 22/03/11

      After spending years working in power stations; I don’t believe we have a mature enough workforce to safely maintain multiple nuclear power stations.

      We can’t keep our coal fired power stations in good working order, why should we up the stakes with nuclear?

    • vje says:

      10:48am | 22/03/11

      I’m no troll, I’m simply unable to fathom how anyone sees nuclear as a viable option in Australia.  Let me list the number of publicly known nuclear incidents from the IAEA:

      Nuclear power station accidents and incidents:
      Year - Incident - INES level - Country - IAEA description:
      2011 Fukushima 5 Japan Reactor shutdown after the 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami; failure of emergency cooling caused an explosion
      2011 Onagawa   Japan Reactor shutdown after the 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami caused a fire
      2006 Fleurus 4 Belgium Severe health effects for a worker at a commercial irradiation facility as a result of high doses of radiation
      2006 Forsmark 2 Sweden Degraded safety functions for common cause failure in the emergency power supply system at nuclear power plant
      2006 Erwin   US Thirty-five litres of a highly enriched uranium solution leaked during transfer
      2005 Sellafield 3 UK Release of large quantity of radioactive material, contained within the installation
      2005 Atucha 2 Argentina Overexposure of a worker at a power reactor exceeding the annual limit
      2005 Braidwood   US Nuclear material leak
      2003 Paks 3 Hungary Partially spent fuel rods undergoing cleaning in a tank of heavy water ruptured and spilled fuel pellets
      1999 Tokaimura 4 Japan Fatal overexposures of workers following a criticality event at a nuclear facility
      1999 Yanangio 3 Peru Incident with radiography source resulting in severe radiation burns
      1999 Ikitelli 3 Turkey Loss of a highly radioactive Co-60 source
      1999 Ishikawa 2 Japan Control rod malfunction
      1993 Tomsk 4 Russia Pressure buildup led to an explosive mechanical failure
      1993 Cadarache 2 France Spread of contamination to an area not expected by design
      1989 Vandellos 3 Spain Near accident caused by fire resulting in loss of safety systems at the nuclear power station
      1989 Greifswald   Germany Excessive heating which damaged ten fuel rods
      1986 Chernobyl 7 Ukraine (USSR)  Widespread health and environmental effects. External release of a significant fraction of reactor core inventory
      1986 Hamm-Uentrop   Germany Spherical fuel pebble became lodged in the pipe used to deliver fuel elements to the reactor
      1981 Tsuraga 2 Japan More than 100 workers were exposed to doses of up to 155 millirem per day radiation
      1980 Saint Laurent des Eaux 4 France Melting of one channel of fuel in the reactor with no release outside the site
      1979 Three Mile Island 5 US Severe damage to the reactor core
      1977 Jaslovské Bohunice 4 Czechoslovakia Damaged fuel integrity, extensive corrosion damage of fuel cladding and release of radioactivity
      1969 Lucens   Switzerland Total loss of coolant led to a power excursion and explosion of experimental reactor
      1967 Chapelcross   UK Graphite debris partially blocked a fuel channel causing a fuel element to melt and catch fire
      1966 Monroe   US Sodium cooling system malfunction
      1964 Charlestown   US Error by a worker at a United Nuclear Corporation fuel facility led to an accidental criticality
      1959 Santa Susana Field Laboratory   US Partial core meltdown
      1958 Chalk River   Canada Due to inadequate cooling a damaged uranium fuel rod caught fire and was torn in two
      1958 Vin?a   Yugoslavia During a subcritical counting experiment a power buildup went undetected - six scientists received high doses
      1957 Kyshtym 6 Russia Significant release of radioactive material to the environment from explosion of a high activity waste tank. 
      1957 Windscale Pile 5 UK Release of radioactive material to the environment following a fire in a reactor core
      1952 Chalk River 5 Canada A reactor shutoff rod failure, combined with several operator errors, led to a major power excursion of more than double the reactor’s rated output at AECL’s NRX reactor

    • Markus says:

      12:24pm | 22/03/11

      I notice a major lack of the words ‘dead’ or ‘casualties’ in this list of major incidents…

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      12:48pm | 22/03/11

      vje

      That’s a lot of information and the incidents you describe appear to have swayed your view. Can you provide details of deaths and injuries associated with the incidents?

      Safety Reports are also available for other industries as well - I picked one at random, NSW Rail over a two year period.

      For the sake of the Punch readers who would wear out their scroll wheel, I will not list the entire report for safety breaches for the NSW Railways during a two year period, so here is the link.

      http://www.transportregulator.nsw.gov.au/rail/industry_performance/nsw-risr/3_Key rail safety occurrences.pdf

      Please be aware this link does provide evidence of deaths and injuries resulting from railway services in NSW, but I hope it adds some perspective to people like vje who use safety reports as their main argument against energy generation.

    • L. says:

      01:48pm | 22/03/11

      Ok.. Lets talk accindent

      US coal deaths:

      1980: 133 deaths, .06 per 200,000 hours.

      1990: 66 deaths, .04 per 200,000 hours.
      1991: 61 deaths, .04.
      1992: 55 deaths, .04.
      1993: 47 deaths, .04.
      1994: 45 deaths, .04.
      1995: 47 deaths, .04.
      1996: 39 deaths, .03.
      1997: 30 deaths, .03.
      1998: 29 deaths, .03.
      1999: 35 deaths, .03.
      2000: 38 deaths, .04.
      2001: 42 deaths, .040.
      2002: 27 deaths, .028.
      2003: 30 deaths, .031.
      2004: 28 deaths, .027.
      2005: 23 deaths, .021.
      2006: 47 deaths, .040.
      2007: 28 deaths, .030.
      2008: 30 deaths, .030.
      2009: 18 deaths. .020.

      Chinese coal deaths.

      2000: 5,300 deaths.
      2001: 5,670 deaths.
      2002: 5,791 deaths.
      2003: 7,200 deaths.
      2004: 6,027 deaths.
      2005: 5,986 deaths.
      2006: 4,746 deaths.
      2007: 3,786 deaths.
      2008: 3,215 deaths.
      2009: 2,631 deaths.

      Yay… coal wins. :-(

      http://frankwarner.typepad.com/free_frank_warner/2006/01/us_coal_mining_.html

    • Ben81 says:

      03:14pm | 22/03/11

      vje - I could provide you with a list of things in other industries that have acually killed many people during that same time but you’d wear out the scroll wheel on your mouse trying to get through it all.

      L. - and those stats don’t even count the tens of thousands of people dying each year all around the world from illnesses related to coal power production, just mining deaths.
      The plain double standards from people opposing nuclear power are just ridiculous.

    • Mick says:

      03:33pm | 22/03/11

      C’mon, these were deaths from coal mining.  Mining uranium is just as perilous as mining coal.  If we switch to nuclear power then we will be substituting one mining operation for another.  Nuclear energy also requires post mining process plants as well,

    • Mick says:

      03:35pm | 22/03/11

      C’mon, these were deaths from coal mining.  Mining uranium is just as perilous as mining coal.  If we switch to nuclear power then we will be substituting one mining operation for another.  Nuclear energy also requires post mining process plants as well,

    • You Lose says:

      03:39pm | 22/03/11

      data, based on Belarus national cancer statistics, predicts approximately 270,000 cancers and 93,000 fatal cancer cases caused by Chernobyl.
      The report also concludes that on the basis of demographic data, during the last 15 years, 60,000 people have additionally died in Russia because of the Chernobyl accident, and estimates of the total death toll for the Ukraine and Belarus could reach another 140,000.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      04:47pm | 22/03/11

      @Mick - that’s a good question.

      However my understanding is that mining coal (compared to uranium) is more dangerous due to explosive gases that form when mining coal. Any miners out there, please correct me if I am wrong.

    • You Lose says:

      06:14pm | 22/03/11

      I’ll see your who report and raise you a greenpeace report.

      http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/features/chernobyl-deaths-180406/

      PS what happened to the more than 300,000 people who were “relocated” from the areas that were identified as being “contaminated?
      Have you tracked them all down to find out how they died or if they or their children are sick and suffering from cancer?
      OR was that too hard to complete an accurate picture of the long term affects of Chernobyl?

    • Ben81 says:

      06:56pm | 22/03/11

      Yes ‘You Lose’, those kind of claims from groups ideologically opposed to nuclear power, usually attributing just about every case of cancer within any arbitrary distance from the disaster to the power plant, are one reason there’s serious reports and studies thoroughly debunking them.
      And for good reason, the most obvious one can be found in the conclusions -
      “Alongside radiation-induced deaths and diseases, the report labels the mental health impact of Chernobyl as “the largest public health problem created by the accident” and partially attributes this damaging psychological impact to a lack of accurate information.”

      You and others supporting and believing the blatant misinformation of groups that scare people with unfounded lies are doing more actual harm to people than any nuclear disaster.

      “what happened to the more than 300,000 people who were “relocated” from the areas that were identified as being “contaminated?”
      You’re the one implying they’re all dying, why can’t anyone prove it?  Or is that just too hard?  Have you tracked them down and have evidence that disproves everything we know about the effects of certain levels of radiation on humans?

    • TimB says:

      07:10pm | 22/03/11

      A Greenpeace report? Really? You don’t think they have a vested interest in demonising nuclear power?

      I think I’ll trust the World Health Orginizatrion over Greenpeace, thanks.

    • TheRealDave says:

      07:25pm | 22/03/11

      @YouLose: A Greenpeace ‘report’??

      Did they do it in conjunction with the Ponds Institute?

    • TimB says:

      07:38pm | 22/03/11

      Wow. *Organization.

      I don’t usually bother going to the effort of correcting my typos, but that was bad smile

    • You Lose says:

      08:44pm | 22/03/11

      Actually Dave I guess I can tell you this and it does indeed include the ponds institute.
      In early 1987, The Soviet Union contacted Unilever brothers (the Ponds Institute) in the U.S. to discuss the fallout of the Chernobyl nuclear incident (pun intended). It seems the was a lot of consternation and anxiety throughout the population of Russia regarding the positioning of nuclear power plants and the Russians wanted to allay any fears the population might have had.

      The Ponds Institute went to work trying to minimise the publicity regarding the radiation exposure and the harmful affects that were appearing throughout the regions medical facilities. Part of the brief was to round up over 300,000 people that were residing in the immediate fallout zone and re-locate them throughout the Soviet Union. This took a number of years to accomplish, but was worth a lot of money to Unilevers bottom line. This project has been shrouded in secrecy until now.
      Having been involved in this massive “cleanup” of radiation truth, I understand the climate change deniers assertions that all climate change research is a concerted plot by climate scientists to stay employed. The only ones that know the real truth about climate change are code named dolt and “the parrot”

    • Ben81 says:

      09:17pm | 22/03/11

      I think You Lose just lived up to his name.

    • Homer Simpson says:

      10:54am | 22/03/11

      It’s pronounced “nuke-u-ler”

    • Kerry Coyle says:

      10:58am | 22/03/11

      Of all the comments that have been made here, there was only one that made sense and that was to close down the uranium reactors and build THORIUM REACTORS which are safe and can be turned off at the push of a button, they can also use up all the radioactive material left over from the old uranium reactors, so please type in Thorium Reactors and do a bit of research before making a comment about something that most of you know nothing about and it’s not your fault that you know nothing about Thorium as Bob Brown of the Greens and the political parties Federal and state are not telling you the truth and I doubt wether most of them would know about Thorium Nuclear power either, and as a matter of interest Australia has the biggest known deposits of Thorium in the World.

    • The Badger says:

      05:06pm | 22/03/11

      Where are the Thorium reactors of which you speak generating power?
      Countries? Numbers? Energy generated?

    • Ben81 says:

      07:03pm | 22/03/11

      Nothing wrong with exploring alternatives to Uranium, but the kind of nuclear reactors currently in use all over the world are fine.  There’s no urgent need to replace them in light of the latest fearmongering.

    • The Badger says:

      07:58pm | 22/03/11

      Where are the thorium reactors producing base load power?
      Simple question really.

    • Kerry Coyle says:

      11:15am | 22/03/11

      i know you will not publish this but it is really up to you people at punch and various journalists around Australia to do some research and inform the people of Australia about Thorium Reactors and ask the Polly’s why they are not doing something about it, and as you can read from the comments you might as well say Thorium who?, I am a retired Mechanical Engineer and I am amazed that Journalists have not pushed this answer to electrical Power years ago.

    • Comedian says:

      11:24am | 22/03/11

      Why can’t we just train mice to go around and around a massive wheel to generate power?

    • Elphaba says:

      12:04pm | 22/03/11

      Better yet, why not make fat people run on a big wheel?  We’d solve the energy crisis and the obesity crisis…

    • Tim says:

      01:23pm | 22/03/11

      Why stop there?

      Would these people be paid for their time? Because if so, we can make sure candidates are chosen from the ranks of the unemployed, thus helping to solve a third problem,

      We’re on a roll here smile.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:02pm | 22/03/11

      @Tim, we could means test it - based on income and average hours worked per week, work out your shifts around your current job and rate per hour.

      For the unemployed, start with a part time base wage (to allow them time to look for another job - freedom is the key) plus bonuses for more hours run on the wheel.

      All fat people, employed and unemployed should have an opportunity to run on the wheel. wink

    • Benny says:

      11:31am | 22/03/11

      Here’s another wiki quote
      Thousands of miners die from mining accidents each year, especially in the processes of coal mining.
      You are talking decades with maybe a couple of hundred people effected.

      I am all for nuclear power as at present no one can prove to me there is a base load alternitive. And really, when is somewher in Oz going to be hit by a 8.9 earth quake and a 14mt wave?

    • PTom says:

      01:08pm | 22/03/11

      @Benny,
      Ask the people of Meeberrie about 7.2 quake or Newcastle. Australia is more stable but to say we don’t get quakes is wrong.
      As for tsunami would get more then people think have a look at August 1977. This was not Australian quake but one on our borders that caused that.
      So where do you plan to build these power and waste sites?

    • Where is the ring of fire? says:

      05:03pm | 22/03/11

      Answer to your question - Northern Australia lies close to where the Asia Tsunami originated.
      We do get 10 metre tides up the top of West Australia
      Why not harness that?

    • The Badger says:

      11:51am | 22/03/11

      Nuclear power is an option, but not a viable one.
      No party in Australia endorses Nuclear Power.
      Without a political party championing nuclear power it will never be considered except by fringe dwellers and those that stand to benefit by its introduction.

      Why are you even attempting to have a debate that is so irrelevant?
      Waste of time and energy.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:30pm | 22/03/11

      Parties that talk about it are shouted down by other parties who turn it into a partisan political issue when it just shouldn’t be.  Other countries got over that crap a long time ago. 
      Things don’t go away or stop being issues just because the major parties don’t have a policy supporting them, do you need some obvious examples of that happening elsewhere like gay marriage?

      “Without a political party championing nuclear power it will never be considered except by fringe dwellers and those that stand to benefit by its introduction.”
      Those that stand to benefit, you mean anyone with lungs and who uses electricity?

    • PTom says:

      01:24pm | 22/03/11

      @Ben8.
      Other Countries got over the deniers of climate change crap a long time ago too and started to do something about it, but we still have it going on here. So why is it the same people who say Climate Change is crap are the same people that think Nuclear Power is our only why to go. Go where extactly? We don’t have power shortage and coal is cheaper. So why do we need Nuclear Power?

      If it is about future protecting our enviroment, current Nuclear Power has a waste problem, management and risk.

    • Ben81 says:

      02:39pm | 22/03/11

      PTom I was replying to someone saying it’s pointless to talk about things that political parties aren’t pushing.  It’s a ridiculous position, as is arguing against the introduction of nuclear power with safety as a reason.

      “So why is it the same people who say Climate Change is crap are the same people that think Nuclear Power is our only why to go.”
      That’s garbage, and if it seems that way in Australia it’s because it’s fast becoming a partisan issue because of people opposing it for political reasons (beyond the usual green groups) when it isn’t like that in many other places in the world.
      If we have to reduce our emissions it’s sure as hell a better way to do it than with a tax and will cause much less harm to people than the coal power plants we have now.

      “If it is about future protecting our enviroment, current Nuclear Power has a waste problem, management and risk. “
      The waste is captured instead of spewed into the air.  The risk of actual harm to people compared to almost any other major industry you can think of is so miniscule it’s not even worth talking about.

    • brian m says:

      01:31pm | 22/03/11

      I don’t know whether ‘truth’ is the first casualty of war but it certainly seems to be the first casualty following a nuclear accident.

    • malheureuxmaus says:

      01:49pm | 22/03/11

      I cannot believe the narrow sightedness of so many journalists/intellectuals/professionals when it comes to renewable energy. This is an industry that is in it’s infancy. We do not yet know whether renewables can supply base load power. We certainly do know, as with any embryonic industry, that innovations that we cannot even conceive of yet are possible and indeed likely.

      With two alternate yet unappealing choices before us - nuclear and fossil fuels - it would prudent for government, industry and investors to increase investment in developing renewables, rather than spouting the same tired ‘it won’t meet baseload’ argument.

    • Razor says:

      02:28pm | 22/03/11

      Australia should make itself the Saudia Arabia of uranium fuelled nuclear power - not ruling out other fuels though, like thorium.

      Mine it, process it, use it, reprocess it, dispose of it.

      Power plants for Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and Canberra.

      The Canberra one would be partnered with the ANU to build the biggest ever collider.

      The Adelaide one should be part of a processing/reprocessing plant.

      Reprocessing should include development of a nuclear weapons for the ADF.

      The power could be used (on top of our growing domestic/industrial demand) to run those industries that we currently export a lot of our commodities off shore for processing - like aluminium smelting etc.

      The attraction of high calibre intelects in both the applied and theoretical sciences attached to the nuclear industry should be used to partner industry and academia in this great project.  Buiulding the next great collider to step beyond CERN should be part of the project.

      We have the stable geology and technolgies like synrock to enable us to become the global waste disposal location - which is inherently fair if we are mining the uranium in the first place.

      I would rather see $43 billion spent on that type of project than the NBN.

    • Severino says:

      03:12pm | 22/03/11

      meh
      I’d rather see Australia become the Saudi Arabia of solar power.

      Take your nuclear fuel rods and go somewhere else.

    • Kika says:

      03:17pm | 22/03/11

      1)) High calibre ‘intelects’ - I believe the word is ‘intellects’
      2) Why do we need a super collider?
      3) Global wate disposal location? Us? The desert? Right coz nobody lives out there. Just like Maralinga.
      4) Don’t make me laugh. The ADF with nukes? We can hardly manage a fleet of submarines & fighter jets let alone a source of nukes. And why oh why would we ever need them? The only reason you make them is to use them

    • DaveinPerth says:

      04:38pm | 22/03/11

      @Kika
      1) Maybe he meant ‘internets’ ??
      2) We don’t need another CERN. They’ve got one already, and they let us copy their homework.
      3) Aus is the best place on the planet for a global nuclear waste dump. Plenty of candidate sites.Rich. Stable. Geologically perfect for the job.
      4) The nuclear tech we should be pursuing is THORIUM. The CSIRO should be doing bulk research on the LFTR (thorium) reactor as it is the ONLY viable way forward. Cheaper than coal. Greener than EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING !  The Uranium/Plutonium cycle is all well and good, but too much waste and too much risk. (ie Fukashima/ Chernobyl) But you don’t get weapons from the Thorium cycle, so no new toys for Razor.

    • Severino says:

      07:25pm | 22/03/11

      DiP
      Is thorium safer than Nuclear fusion?

      Where can we see one producing serous baseload energy?

    • stephen says:

      08:02pm | 22/03/11

      Excactly.
      And the ADF should be at the forefront of any nuclear development here, and they should establishment a Corporation, with overseas development, that could mine our resources.
      This is the perfect country for such development.
      We could, with monies collected, be the richest country on earth.
      (Bob Hawke was right, and this may be the only way.)

    • DaveinPerth says:

      12:30am | 23/03/11

      @Severino - Is thorium (LFTR) safer than Uranium? Yes. No comparison. The new uranium reactors are incredibly safe anyway, but they still produce large amounts of waste. And waste = cost & long term risk. But yes, thorium is much safer again.

      Thorium eats nuclear waste. We can get rid of a HUGE amount of the stored nuclear waste just by running LFTR reactors.

      Where can we see it?
      You can’t. LFTR development was killed off many years ago when it was realised that it was no good for making weapons. That’s why we have the uranium/plutonium cycle. (great for bombs. Not so good for safety) Now, GE et al are wedding to the uranium cycle for commercial reasons. We (the world) needs a govt or a rich person (ie Gates) to take the plunge and spend a couple of bill to make it happen.

      But don’t take my word for it. (I could be typing away in a basement, wearing a tinfoil hat) Google LFTR. Spend a couple of hours learning about it. It’s fascinating to see that we already have the answer to so many problems sitting there waiting to go.

    • DaveinPerth says:

      02:47pm | 23/03/11

      @Severino - Re-read your question on my nice big PC screen instead of my iPad, and now realise you asked is Thorium safer than FUSION ?

      My own PERSONAL view is that I would scared at the concept of having a fusion reactor in the Perth metro area. But the chances of that happening before 2070 is ZERO. (Projected first commercial power plant is PROTO. Expected circa 2050+. Given our late adopter status I think 2070 would be wildly optimistic.)

      I would happily have a Thorium (LFTR) reactor running in my backyard.

    • Severino says:

      07:14pm | 23/03/11

      DiP
      Thorium in production
      You didn’t answer my question.
      Where can we see one producing serious baseload energy?

    • DaveinPerth says:

      12:24am | 24/03/11

      @Severino - In China. Soon.

    • Severino says:

      07:16pm | 24/03/11

      So these reactors you want to propagate throughout Australia don’t exist?
      Tell me DiP it takes at least 15 years to build a nuclear reactor. How long does it take to build one of these you beaut Thorium reactors?

    • DaveinPerth says:

      12:49am | 25/03/11

      @Severino - “How long does it take to build one of these you beaut Thorium reactors?”
      Up until I learned about China’s decision to go with the LFTR (see post at base of page), my best hope was for 10 to 15 fifteen years to go through the development / design / commercialisation phases to get LFTR up and running.
      NOW, everything has changed. The alarm bells should be ringing in the hallways of GE / Areva / etc that someone has decided to do LFTR. Their reactor business model is now dead. (ie Give a reactor away for free, and make a fortune on the fuel rods.)
      The Chinese should be able to demonstrate what LFTR SHOULD be about. Make a power plant in a modular, repeatable design that is INHERENTLY safe, and mass produce.  At that point, coal and uranium look expensive.  (Wind and solar remain the same joke they have always been.)

      When THAT happens, we are able to power the third world.
      Power = Increased standard of living.
      Increased living standards = Reduced fertility rates.
      Reduced fertility rates = The species MIGHT have a chance. 

      Don’t take my word for it. (As if someone @Punch would. heh!)
      If you have the time, google LFTR Thorium. It’s all on youtube and well worth whatever time you are willing to devote to it.
      RE: Fusion. I love the CONCEPT of fusion, but I just don’t think we can wait for it? I get the impression the peak oil / climate change / aquifer depletion trio is just going to clobber us before we can get there? (and when I say clobber, I mean water/food/resource wars, social breakdown, anarchy, etc. Think Mad Max without the mullets.)

    • Dave-o says:

      02:48pm | 22/03/11

      So where are we going to stick these plants? Who will run them, equity funds like Macqurrie Bank or an AWB style government body. Can we reduce the price if we weaponize the waste? Will we construct our own disposal facility for the remaining waste? Can we then reduce that facilities price by taking on other countries waste (its not like we’re doing anything useful with Woomera anyway)?

      So many questions

    • Elphaba says:

      03:12pm | 22/03/11

      Better to ask them than governments and greenies sticking their fingers in their ears and going “La la la la Chernobyl”...

      Questions are good.  Blind ignorance is bad.

    • Gregg says:

      12:54pm | 23/03/11

      @Dave-o
      The plants like all power stations need a reliable cooling water supply and that usually means having them by a lake/river of some reliability or built dams with pumping from a reliable supply.
      Alternately you use seawater to minimise freshwater consumption but there are associated higher maintenance costs.

      It will may make sense to locate them where they can easily be connected into the power grid and there could be some advantages re that and cooling to locate them at older decommissioned PSs sites as following dismantling there could even be much existing infrastructure re-used and perhaps even some of the existing plant, thus minimising dismantling costs.
      A lot of power stations are not located so close to residential areas.

      Currently, you have a mix of PS management in Australia, Victoria having been to the fore of privatisation in recent decades, other states not having sold off so much by way of PSs and that is another story re current availability limitations.
      PSs have always been a state by state scenario re what is to be built but times are a changing and the eastern states grid means there is something of a larger authority already established for grid management.

      Latest state of the art for Nuclear fule use means that significant recycling can occur and waste is vastly minimised as against what it has been with earlier power stations.
      In fact I think the French are taking ” spent ” nuclear fuel from other power station to recycle it and one figure I think has been claimed is that waste is down to 5% of what it has been previously and of such a low radiation that less secure storage is even needed.

      Australia being on its own tectonic plate, we are less prone to earth tremors and other naturual hazards and there is no reason why a secure waste disposal location could not be located out in some unpopulated area and if there was good income to be attained, I am sure offering to dispose of other countries waste could be looked at and also no doubt extensively criticised by the many who will be against anything nuclear.

      It could even be that warning signs re risk of exposure to high level radiation would not discourage some protestors trekking 500 km. or so through the desert but maybe they’d not take too many repeat trips.

    • Mick says:

      03:38pm | 22/03/11

      We could follow Americas example of handling nuclear waste - turn it into bullets and spread it out evenly across Iraq.

    • Michael K says:

      04:22pm | 22/03/11

      Too many people in Australia have blinkers on when it comes to nuclear technology. There is indeed a lot of misinformation about nuclear power, but to counter the propaganda requires not only a very basic scientific knowledge, but also a broad historical underpinning to understand complex nuclear incidents like Chernobyl (i.e., late-Soviet era history reveals much about why Chernobyl nuclear power station was especially susceptible to the events that overcame it). This is a huge ask for an electorate that is mostly eager for elections to quickly end so television stations can resume airing hugely-interesting corporate advertising rather than campaign material.

    • Grumpy says:

      06:28pm | 22/03/11

      Its all about money. The nuclear argument is less about powering homes and all about being able to sell and use the uranium we have. Why go back down the same road we have been with coal and oil when we have the opportunity to change how we do things and create power from what will be almost free of cost in 50 years or so. Free of cost from mining, waste management, infrastructure and of the potential wars that would be fought over another mineral when it becomes scarce. Why release another evil on the world to fight over when we have so many options available right now that wont contribute to our desire to kill ourselves. I do believe nuclear has a bad rep for reasons that are justified but can now be managed, somewhat, i just dont see the point in investing in infrastructure that will leave us, once again, dependant on another finite resource. This is australia we have 23 million people here, we dont need nuclear power. Theres single wind turbines that can power a hundred thousand homes alone. Combine this with solar, hydo and offshore windfarms and we have a new industry that could see us as lead the world instead of leave us holding onto the way’s we have always done things just because its easier.

    • Gregg says:

      11:36am | 23/03/11

      It does not need an expert to predict that power shortages and/or ever more increasing power costs are looming on the horizon for most of us in Australia.
      ” Over the next decade or so the price of electricity will increasing a topic of political debate as both a hip pocket nerve issue and as a wider question of limiting carbon emissions. The population will have expanded, the economy will have grown, so we’ll need more power. I expect the hopes for renewable will soon flounder – yes, they will have a role to play – but they will not fill the void of rising costs and the question ‘where is reliable supply to come from?’. “

      Even without the future we are already sailing close to the wind and a number of tackings have occurred in the past couple of decades but that is always tough going in stormy waters:
      . The eastern states are on a power grid of sorts which allows for transfer of power between the states, with limitations that are not only what is available in another state.
      That has allowed the states to drop their demand/capacity margins through scheduling maintenance outages and a broader management of supply, resultant outcome being that new major base load power stations have not been on the design board for sometime.
      . Victoria has privatised power generation and amongst other practices one would hope would be of benefit for longer term generation and costs, looking at what the bottom line is does not always do that.
      Hazelwood PS in Victoria for instance, their oldest coal fired station and well beyond what would be a normal retirement age is kind of having every MW squeezed out of units since privatisation in the 1990s whereas in previous decades it was run at much lower generation levels.

      One reason why maximum generation is sought is that the power grid management is run on a kind of auction basis where higher demand will see higher prices offered to producers.
      That approach has already see many smaller gas fired turbine units constructed for which generation cost is higher and as we get to relying more and more on such units to plug the demand/availability gap that will just keep driving costs up.

      It would seem that in Victoria at least, the government has handballed the concept of a new power station on to the private sector and the private sector may no doubt be quite happy to keep on establishing gas fired units for if the income is there, the development cost is insignificant compared with a coal fired power station.
      The income will of course come from us the consumers.
      NSW and Queensland have developed a fine track record re infrastructure, so who knows what will happen there.

      Government programs for household and others household solar power or solar farms are a two edged sword for householders as whilst a program may offer a lucrative purchase of any power generated in excess of use, that income also has to be factored into total cost for all consumers.
      Meanwhile the reduced ” rebated ” price of solar power units via REC is actually a contract fee to have your solar power unit generating for what may be 15 years so be wary of an el cheapo brand for if you stop generating, you may have a a get out of contract fee to repay.

      So yep, whilst increasing power costs are already here having power restrictions may also be not too far away and Bob Brown and his team could have that wish for us all to be using candles quicker than he even dreams of.

      ” In that context you’d think there could well come a time – I would like it to be sooner rather than later – when Government looks at nuclear power alongside other options. “
      Maybe Greens and Independents will become far less the flavour of an election when the power outages do kick in and people learn it will be for a few years for even a nuclear PS will take a few to develop.

      With the current federal government taking the approach of we will put a detention centre on ” our ” land and we will not allow cattle to be grazed in ” our ” NP and you cannot build a dam there but that Paper Mill is OK, who knows if they are still in power, maybe they will have ” their ” land close to someone elses back yard to appease the other NIMBYS.

      If you commence stocking candles now, allegedly the older ones will burn for longer!

    • DaveinPerth says:

      03:07pm | 23/03/11

      Just read about some GOOD NEWS for China (And mankind generally.) Looks like the Chinese govt and some Chinese companies are starting down the Thorium LFTR development path.

      It’s bad news for GE/Areva/etc, as this will make their existing nuclear designs obsolete. Tsk….

 

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