Punch on: Open thread 26/10/10

TheRealDave says:

09:07am | 26/10/10

You do realise it was Churchill that got thousands of Australians killed in a poorly conceived and abysmally executed campaign at that little place called Gallipoli don’t you? He kinda disappeared for a while after that only to crop up a few decades later and get one of our divisions captured in another abysmal farce in Singapore and then tried to first keep our troops in the Middle East to defend English possessions there and then when that didn’t work he secretly tried to divert our troops to defend India, another British possession, and leave Australia wide open.

Churchill’s greatest strength is that Germany was lead by an incompetent moron.

Yes, we need more Churchills - not.

Bob H says:

09:38am | 26/10/10

And do you realise - WInston was despised by the people of London whom he ignored as they were being blitzed.  E.g he kept London underground stations closed during the blitz while Londoners were being bombed and only rioting in the streets got that changed.  He despised the northern English poor and showed them great cruelty, the very ones sitting on the front line taking bullets.  England was stuffed and would have lost, had it not been for the US, a fact ignored when people pump up this unworthy and fake legend.

GGibson says:

10:24am | 26/10/10

I love the old leaders. They had grit. Made mistakes but were ‘men of their season’. Ive seen many changes in this country over the years, few for the good. I remember a time when homosexuals were underground and politcians could be mostly trusted. Ah…the good old days:)

Carl Palmer says:

02:41pm | 26/10/10

@ Bob H says:09:38am | 26/10/10 Spot on!  Here is a another example….

“....The campaign in Greece 1941 turned out to have uncanny parallels to the original Gallipoli operation: both were inspired by Winston Churchill, both were badly planned by British military leaders, and both ended in defeat and evacuation. British bungling at Gallipoli was one thing; but in Greece, Churchill authorised his commanders to leave the Anzacs to their fate if their rescue compromised wider British interests.”

Extract from “The Campaign in Greece, 1941”

No we don’t want or need another Mr W Churchill.

Pete says:

08:50am | 26/10/10

pfft. He beat the Nazis and to the victor goes the spoils.

Ryan says:

09:16am | 26/10/10

@Shane: and partially the reason why you don’t speak German today and live under a despotic reigieme.

OKon Trare says:

10:16am | 26/10/10

The Americans beat the Nazis.

Ryan says:

10:40am | 26/10/10

@OKon Trare: yawn, I am hardly going to try and educate you on history however I would implore you to understand the significance of the British cracking the Enigma code with regards to the Americans. Also please find out just how much the Russians contributed to defeating Nazi Germany rather than watching American movies that try to make out like the Americans were the reason for victory. As a side note, I can tell you my Grandfather used to say that they had to send the Americans in first because if you didn’t, a the first sign of gunfire, you would turn around to see them running away.

TheRealDave says:

11:13am | 26/10/10

It was the Russians that bled Nazi Germany dry in terms of fighting on the ground. Then add US and British strategic airpower that devastated Germany’s industrial base whilst the US’s manufacturing heartland was never threatened. Thats how WW2 was won.

OKon Trare says:

01:16pm | 26/10/10

@Ryan -  See the name World War 2,  there was a small matter of the Pacific that does not appear in films too much.  Check out The Imperial War Museum archives and find the references to US supply lines, their large scale logistics capability played a massive role in Germany’s defeat, rather than ShowBiz strategy claims.  US was not under siege and free to use its new world mass production techniques to manufacture at speed and resupply.  Granted cracking Enigma helped the supply lines across the Atlantic but credit goes to the Polish underground who captured a device for study, but I appreciate that you liked the Hollywood versions.  You use your Grandfather as some kind of providence, I’ll use my Dad and uncles, my Grandads were in WW1 but that is rather tasteless I’d say.

Ryan says:

10:07am | 27/10/10

@OKon Trare: I am sorry, did I misunderstand your extremely dubious claim “The Americans beat the Nazis.” if you are going to make a broad statement claiming victory then you need to back that up with some actual evidence.. oh and just so you know.. the cracking of the enigma code by the English was the precursor to getting the vital information to drag the Americans kicking and screaming into the war. Up until then they couldn’t have given a stuff what happened in Europe.

Jim says:

10:14am | 26/10/10

“Industrial Democracy”...is that your new catch-phrase for this week? Are you referring to the Utopian “Industrial Democracy” espoused by Mr and Mrs Webb all those years ago? Or is it the “Industrial Democracy” that, according to your CFMEU overlords, “falls apart” anytime a company doesn’t roll over and submit to a Union thugs demands?

Fiddlesticks says:

09:15am | 26/10/10

From 1941 to well into 1942, the British were on a knife edge at home: with
Unquantifiable but real threat of possible invasion (until the Russian Front, late 41)
U-boat War almost at strangulation point on imports whether arms, oil, foodstuffs etc (at its worst in 41/42)
Grim outlook against German advances in the Middle East (oil, as ever) until late in 1942. Nov 42: “the end of the beginning”, indeed.

No-one at the time got everything right. They had to make the best of what they had at the time. That’s how War is.

Messy business, relying on the best efforts of ordinary people and rather a large dollop of luck. 

We (the Poms and us Down Under) all got away with it because we didn’t and wouldn’t give in, even when things were at their rock bottom grimmest.

As for Yalta, well Roosevelt was as much a driver as Churchill, and the war remained to be won, not only in Europe but against Japan.

That’s not to excuse the choices made. It’s sobering to think how long it took internationally to realise what a really nasty piece of work Stalin was.

It was as well Hitler took on Russia so late in 1941. Biggest blunder of the War, really.

stephen says:

11:36am | 26/10/10

Hitler carved up Europe, and the development of the Eurpoean Union is an attempt to put it back together again.(This is how much damage he did, that is has taken 60 years to rectify.)
We all defeated the Third Reich : the British at the Battle of Britain, the Americans at the Battle of the Coral Sea and us in the Middle East.
(And we’re still there, defeating another pack of ratbags).

James1 says:

12:05pm | 26/10/10

To be fair stephen, the Russians did more than all the rest combined.

Eric says:

01:17pm | 26/10/10

If you’re talking about mass murder of the innocent in the first half of the 20th Century, James1, I agree with you.

Though it was Mao who led in the second half.

stephen says:

01:40pm | 26/10/10

James1
It was late in ‘42 that the war on the Eastern Front with the Bolsheviks was perilous for Hitler, yet Goering knew previously that air-supremacy had evaporated against Britain over her airfields.
The Poms may be crappy at fish ‘chips, bit hell, her lads could fly.

TheRealDave says:

02:05pm | 26/10/10

@Stephen,Battle of the Coral Sea…wtf?!?!

:p