Punch on: Open thread 23/10/2012

TheRealDave says:

10:15am | 23/10/12

Whoa!

David Horner is no ‘No Name’ Historian. Unlike the recent crop of civilian entertainment authors like Peter Fitzsimmons et al, David Horner is an actual military historian AND a military veteran with 25 years service including in Vietnam. You will not find a better qualified military historian since Bean.

Now, that aside - if you have read any actual military history you would know he is 100% correct in what he says. The Japanese never had any intention to invade Australia - they couldn’t. For starters they didn’t have the troops, they couldn’t logistically support them and they never intended to as part of their quick limited war. They never had any intention of deafeating the Allies. All they wanted to do was get a quick buffer in the Pacific and negotiate a favourable settlement and give back some ground. It was a huge gamble and they failed.

Sadly, Australian military history was hijacked in the 1970’s by Kit Denton and Bruce Beresford. We now have a couple of decades of jingositic chest beating crap. I liked Fitzsimmons books and the recent inundation of books on Australian military history as more people need to hear their stories but we need to balance that view with the facts. A little too much chest beating for our ‘sun bronzed baby faced sons of ANZAC’ and a lot of glossing over of the losses and stupidty we have been guilty of. A lot of finger pointing at other people and nationalities. Bets example - the Lighthorse Charge at the Nek. Ask anyone and it was ‘Poms drinking tea on the beach’ and ‘Pommy officers ordering them over the top’ yadda yadda - never happened. It was an Australian officer, a real arsehole, who told them to keep going. The Poms never ‘stopped for tea’ at Suvla. Raw inexperienced troops did the best they good in trying circumstances - exactly the same as our Diggers did on April 25th.

In his latter days Kit Denton regretted his contribution to the story of Breaker Morant, sadly that view of Australian Military History is still prevalent. By all means buy abnd read *Peter Fitzsimmons books - they are great read. But also, if you are interested, pick up David Horners excellent books as well.

*I am not picking on Peter Fitzsimmons - his is just the biggest name and one that sprung to mind automatically when thinking about recent authors on Australian Military history. I really enjoyed his weighty tomes on Kokoda and Tobruk. But they are written for a slightly more general audience than Horner.

TheRealDave says:

10:20am | 23/10/12

From memory, it was brought up once in a meeting, an invasion of Australia, and the Navy shot it down as stupidity. And was never mentioned again. I forget the name of the book but it had 1942 in the title. While an OK book it went into great depth looking for official Japanese records of what theior plans were in regards to Australia and there was bugger all on an invasion. Most of the stuff we’ve heard about maps, coinage etc are all crap.

The Japanese policy was of safeguarding what they had grabbed and raiding any bases in range. Which is exactly what they did. They never, repeat never, intended to invade Australia. And more to the point, they never had the capacity to do so.

And, we knew it at the time. We used it as propaganda. So well that people still beleive it true today.

Draconian says:

11:59am | 23/10/12

Isn’t that the way of winners of any war though?  Change the facts so they can revel in their own glory.

Anna C says:

08:34am | 23/10/12

I’m getting mightly sick of these no name historians trying to big note themselves by trying to re-write history and defame the good name of our Aussie diggers who fought and died trying to save Australia from Japanese invastion.  How about they do and tell their families that they fought, suffered and died for nothing.

Anubis says:

08:38am | 23/10/12

What myth Acotrel? The Japanese even had occupation money printed for when they took over Australia. I have some in my possession that was taken by my father-in-law from the Japanese in New Guinea - if they had no plans to invade then why print money for the purpose. You, like Horner are being controversial for controversy sake.

Revisionist history like that practiced by Horner is total and utter crap and ignores real evidence in order to push their own barrow (a bit like the other Labor heros involved in Global Warming)

James1 says:

09:25am | 23/10/12

David Horner is Australia’s foremost military historian, and is far from “no name”.  He is as eminent as they come.  To put his credentials in context, how many books on Australian military history have you published (Horner has published more than 20)?  How many histories has ASIO asked you to write about them (Horner was contracted to write that history 3 years ago)?  How long did you spend as a lieutentant in the Vietnam War?

Also, his books explain how he debunked the myth, and show that it was little more than propaganda on our part.  I suggest reading them before you reject his research, which is based on a thorough examination of Japan’s war planning.

“if they had no plans to invade then why print money for the purpose.”

Propaganda - mainly to make Australian soldiers in PNG want to go home, so that Japan could have PNG without a fight, thus consolidating its southern flank and cementing its military position in Southeast Asia.  To put it another way, why print occupation money and plan an invasion, and then give away your plans by releasing the occupation money in another country full of the soldiers of the country you were planning to invade? 

These are the facts: the Japanese navy wanted to invade, but the Japanese army needed about 1 million troops more than it had, so the high command decided not to follow the navy’s preference.  This is not revisionist, it is based on the records of the Japanese themselves.

None of this is controversial - it is very well known among military historians, and indeed has been for a long time.  And none of this diminishes the efforts of Australian soldiers in World War Two in their fight against Imperial Japan.  Whether they were defending Australian territory directly, or liberating hundreds of millions of Asians and Pacific Islanders from Japanese tyranny, their efforts are admirable. 

Why would you think this diminishes their efforts?

Al says:

09:34am | 23/10/12

Accedemics believe in the addage “if you don’t print you die” as a result we get rubbish like this and they are one step closer to a PhD or Fellowship. The fastest way to stop rubish like this make ever article peer reviewed, crap like this will never get up.

BTW I happen to have a copy of a 1938 map of Darwin that has Japanese annotations on key features and recomendations of suitable landing sites. Don’t tell me they didn’t want to land here.

James1 says:

10:03am | 23/10/12

“BTW I happen to have a copy of a 1938 map of Darwin that has Japanese annotations on key features and recomendations of suitable landing sites. Don’t tell me they didn’t want to land here.”

As I say, and as the Japanese records indicate, parts of the Japanese military wanted to but realised they couldn’t, so they never planned for it.  While they might have liked to do so in 1938, this is irrelevant because they canned the idea in late 1941 - when they launched their war.  The idea was completely gone by mid-1942.

Also, all of Horner’s work is peer reviewed by other historians.  It is all fully referenced, so if you don’t believe what he says, you can go to his sources - primary documents - for confirmation.  Do you have any way you can confirm the existence of this map you claim to have?

Al says:

11:59am | 23/10/12

James1, Go to the military museum in Darwin, you can buy a copy just like mine there.

They were reproduced by The Royal Australian Survey Corp prior to 1996.

You clearly have no appreciation of the logistic load to create a map let alone launch close on 100 air raids against a country 5500km away from your home land.  Or the privations required by the troops to capture land for airbases close enough to launch the attacks.

By your reckoning it is equally clear the Imperial Japanese forces enjoyed wasting their countries resources just as much as our current government.

Go and walk the Kakoda track, then walk it again with someone shooting at you, after that go to Townsville and look Nth East. The battle of the Coral sea happened roughly the same distance in that direction as Brisbane is south. Then talk to the 80 year olds that were shelled out of their houses in the eastern suburbs of Sydney by Japanese submarines.

Maybe then despite your clear bias towards the author you will understand the backlash against him.

James1 says:

12:55pm | 23/10/12

None of that proves Horner’s contention to be false.  His work is supported by the archival evidence (as I mention, his work is fully referenced and you can check the sources yourself if you disagree), made up mostly of Australian, American and Japanese primary sources from 1941 and 1942.  I am not baised in favour of Horner, I am biased in favour of the facts and the evidence he presents in support of his argument.  A map from 4 years before the period under discussion does not change this, assuming it is real. 

And I ask the question again, how does the fact they were not defending Australia against a land invasion in 1942 in any way diminish what the Australian soldiers who fought in PNG acheived?  What difference does it make if they weren’t actually fighting to defend Australia, and instead were turning back Japanese tyranny and saving hundreds of millions of Southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders from said tyranny?

I think what those soldiers acheived is amazing, and the fact that the Japanese had no intention of invading Australia by that stage has no bearing on my admiration, so your attempt to make a discussion about facts into a discussion about emotion is irrelevant.  I am uncertain as to why you would admire them less on the basis of the Japanese not intending to invade Australia when they launched their war against the allied powers.

Fiddler says:

07:24am | 23/10/12

I would much rather we took Karen refugees than boat people. Or send Rambo to save them.

Gregg says:

07:49am | 23/10/12

There are also heaps of disadvantaged people on the Mynanmar/Bangladeshi border too apparently, very much unloved and uncared for because of neither Burmese nor Bangaleshi ethnicity, just another example of the millions about the planet not having much of a life.

So for us here in Australia it should be all about having some control over how we distribute our help, something that Krudd led us away from with a disastrous result and yes, Karen refugees are as deserving of if not more so than those who have the capacity to garner resources.

acotrel says:

07:27am | 23/10/12

I don’t know whether I support our involvement in Afghanistan or not !  I don’t like our guys getting killed over ther, but I liked 9/11 even less !  There is an old saying ‘a stitch in time saves nine’.  Our involvement in Afghanistan could retard the advancement towards a global conflict stirred up by idiot terrorists who have a luddite agenda and no regard for the consequences of their actions because of the promise of virgins in paradise made by even bigger idiots.

Gregg says:

08:01am | 23/10/12

@acotrel
” There is an old saying ‘a stitch in time saves nine’.  Our involvement in Afghanistan could retard the advancement towards a global conflict stirred up by idiot “
Whilst stitches can help, it also depends on the quality of the stitch and the application, some people ascribing to poverty and persecution being great for the generation of violence and there’re not too many wars where those of existing poverty have been helped, the Afghanistan attack/invasion/war on terror probably as good as an example as you could get of that.

The accompanying corruption and ineffectiveness of any government control outside of Kabul if that at all would I imagine have many Afghanis well resigned to things likely to get a lot worse as we move around towards 2014.
Staying in Afghanistan longer than was appropriate will likely have served along with killings of families etcv. to just harden attitudes of the Taliban against western values, the Taliban themselves not really in the past into global conflict.

andye says:

09:59am | 23/10/12

@acotrel - Afghanistan was the right decision, which was made wrong by then also going into Iraq.

Stephen T says:

12:05pm | 23/10/12

@acotrel: It’s a dilemma; we can only hope that their efforts are not in vain. Still those in power at the time created more problems than they solved, Howard is a lot like his hero Menzies in his need for adulation and recognition, he demonstrated this when he colluded with American and British leaders regarding weapons of mass destruction and allowed us to be drawn militarily into Iraq.  Afghanistan was an appropriate response extending that response to Iraq demonstrated was totally irresponsible.

acotrel says:

05:30pm | 23/10/12

@gregg
‘Staying in Afghanistan longer than was appropriate will likely have served along with killings of families etcv. to just harden attitudes of the Taliban against western values, the Taliban themselves not really in the past into global conflict. ‘

Do you really believe the attitudes of the Taliban can get any harder ?  We still don’t know what they are about, and why the WTC was brought down. There is a real and deep hatred there already, and if it is purely religous, it must be insanely absurd.  I’ve heard rhetoric about western democracy from that region, is that a threat to the Taliban ?

Mahhrat says:

07:47am | 23/10/12

Oh crapola.  There would have been riots, I would suggest.

As a BBQ man myself, who cooks games at the soccer, I have to say - backup gas bottle.  Always.  They are just so, so necessary.

ausspud says:

11:34am | 23/10/12

@Mahhrat-Are you filling up jumping castles with gas,hopefully their are no smokers at your BBQ’S

Mahhrat says:

11:54am | 23/10/12

Christ that would be a cool Mythbusters episode.

ibast says:

10:03am | 23/10/12

Yes I have a problem with the use of the word “terrorism”.  It’s just a loaded and emotive name for what we, in other circumstances, would call heroic.

Don’t believe me?  How do you feel about the French resistance?

The fact is, if the shoe were on the other foot, we would behave little differently.

TheRealDave says:

10:26am | 23/10/12

I disagree utterly Terry.

We are a nation of creature comforts today. We don’t have a militaristic popualtion - hell, we don’t even have a weapons culture….so how exactly are these ‘militias’ supposed to fight back against an external occupying force? We don’t have an AK in every house like certain other backwards nations. We don’t have a general populace with military training. We have a nation thats had everything handed to them for the past 60 years. While very small pockets of the country have ‘done it hard’ over the years, onthe whole, the country has suffered no hardships at all and experienced unbridled prosperity.

Should the absolute worse happen in this country - we would collapse en masse in a giant screaming heap. We are not the same society we used to be. Just like much of the educated Western World. We don’t know hardship. Our parents didn’t and most of our grandparents who did are dying off. Its passing from living memory to history.

Tommy says:

10:47am | 23/10/12

The difference is if we were occupied by a foreign force im sure we would be hitting military targets and not torturing, kidnapping, extorting and killing our own people.

But then again most Taliban are likely to be from Pakistan or foreign fighters themselves anyway which moots the foreign occupation argument as they themselves are foreign occupiers and i dont think any of them believe in the concept of a ‘Nation’, State or coutnry as we do, but a global caliphulate.

Markus says:

12:56pm | 23/10/12

Sad but true, TRD. Talk of underground resistance militias in this country are a dream.
The majority of the country have not only never fired a gun in their life, but are in support of even further weapons restrictions.
Half of adults are overweight or obese, and large numbers of parents won’t even let their children play contact sport anymore because of the fear they may get hurt.
Somebody else is always to blame, and it’s always up to somebody else to take action.

TRBNGR says:

08:16am | 23/10/12

“The daughter turned 18 yesterday. Yum.”

Agreed.

Lucy-fer says:

11:04am | 23/10/12

TRBNGR: everyone’s favourite dodgy uncle.

Michael says:

12:49pm | 23/10/12

Very jealous Iansand, i am very jealous of your dining experience.

iansand says:

02:38pm | 23/10/12

The Peking duck consomme.  Extraordinary concentrated flavous.  And venison you could cut with the back of a butter knife…

Tim says:

10:27am | 23/10/12

Yep,
Good on Tony Abbott for supporting the middle class gravy train by objecting to the cutting of the baby bonus.

He obviously likes robbing the productive part of our economy to reward lazy bludgers. What a socialist.

Blind Freddy says:

10:29am | 23/10/12

It’s the Liberals doing the complaining - Labor are just getting on with it.

Dash says:

01:27pm | 23/10/12

@Blindfreddy - getting on with what? Bankrupting the place? What’s the debt for the last 4 years? $168billion and rising.

I think a few of us are concerned about what it is they are getting on with. They seem to lurch from one disaster to the next.

@ Tim, any chance the ALP might balance a budget anytime soon? Handouts when you are generating surpluses and repaying ALP debt is one thing. Hand outs when you are generating record defecits is another thing altogether!

Any sign of the costings for the NDIS? Any sign of the costings for Gonski? The Dental Scheme perhaps? the cost of rebuilding Nauru? Any sign of that or are they in the same place as the 260 child care centres, the coastguard, the root and branch tax reform, the citizens assembly, the cheaper fuel, the cheaper groceries, the more affordable housing, the cheaper better childcare, the green loans, the cash for clunkers and the pokie machine reforms?

How much more deceit and failure will it take for you to wake up Tim?

How is craig Tompson’s credit balance looking these days? Need a girlfriend to set up a slush fund for you Tim? Or perhaps she could witness a signature on a Power of Attorney for you without the signatory even being in the room?

Tim says:

02:00pm | 23/10/12

So Dash,
you fully agree with Tony Abbott and his wasteful policies and increased handouts but dislike the ALP ones.
Got it.

Dash says:

02:47pm | 23/10/12

@Tim - last time I looked, the ALP were the government. Any possiblity you might hold them responsible for the job they are doing?

Your “we maybe shit, but so are you” defence of ALP incompetence is wearing a little thin!

My previous post which you chose to ignore, shows what it is you blindly and unashamedly support. Not suprised you have no response as it’s a bit hard to defend the indefensible. A party to fraud, deceit, thuggery and corruption. Must be hard to sleep at night.

Tim says:

04:54pm | 23/10/12

Dash,
So you completely ignore my points and go on another rant about the ALP and I’m ignoring your post? Lol.

See I don’t have to defend the ALP’s crappy policies because I don’t support them. You on the other hand seem stuck between being ignorant and a hypocrite.

Tim says:

10:33am | 23/10/12

Yes it was fairly interesting.

They probably should have done a bit more consultation and explanation to the public before allowing the vessel in the first place.

The ban can’t be supported on the basis of science but when has that ever stopped a government from making a populous decision? Hell, the same could be applied to our ridiculous stance on whaling of non-endangered species.

TheRealDave says:

10:53am | 23/10/12

Best Wishes for your cousin and his mates Elphaba, I sincerly hope they come home safe and sound at the conclusion of their deployment. I know only too well that heart thumping moment when you hear those fateful words on the TV or radio ‘An Australian Soldier has been….’

Elphaba says:

11:12am | 23/10/12

Ta, @Dave.  He should be ok, I word is that he is fairly confined for the duration of his deployment, not a whole lot of moving around (for this one, at least).

Currently, I’m getting together a little care package for him.  Something funny (a Garfield calendar for next year), something sweet (bags of lollies), and something from home (pics we took last year at Christmas of us all consuming potent mojitos in the kiddie pool!)

Draconian says:

12:11pm | 23/10/12

Know how you feel Elph.  My nephew has been over there several times, comes back for 3 months, spends some time training in Melbourne for a few months and then gets sent back again.

Dash says:

08:57am | 23/10/12

@Gwen - you are kidding right!

The NDIS not budgetted. The Gonski School welfare redistribution not bugetted. The Dental Health Scheme for ALP demographics not budgetted. The cost of Nauru not budgetted.

Who has a billion dollar hole in their budget???

Fact of the matter is that this government, in response to global economic downturn in 2008, spent spent and then spent some more. Swan has spent the last three budgets churning out the biggest defecits in our history. Now faced with continued global eonomic downturn, he wants a surplus at all costs. A different policy approach to the same issue.

This government has spent the last four years punishing the productive parts of the economy and rewarding the unproductive parts. now they want to complain about falling revenue? IDIOTS!

Fact is, the ALP cannot handle money. They have not balanced a budget in over 20 years. And this one is a cooked book surplus which at this rate will not see their debt paid off for over 100 years. Given their big announcement spending plans, they will never return the nations finances to where they found them. That is the admission of a government that has taken us financially backwards. A measure of their failure.

This government has now officially given up on economic management and handed that responsibility over to the RBA. All in the name of politics!

And your response is to get on here and blame….... Abbott. For what exactly?

Btw your last comment is mysoginist by Gillard’s new definition.

ausspud says:

11:26am | 23/10/12

@Gwen-When the budget is 25b off,he will be the only person in this country that did’nt know that our $ is high.

patsy says:

10:25am | 23/10/12

Congrats Anubis and partner. Google 20th anniversary for ideas. It tells you what the traditional and modern gifts are. So depending on your budget you could go to the local chinese (as in china) or buy jewellery (as in platinum.) Have fun. I’m sure you’ll be inspired.
The gifts that symbolize ninth anniversaries didn’t didn’t suit my tastes so I bought nine small gifts of lottery tickets for him instead and they got up. That paid for a night out.

Draconian says:

12:47pm | 23/10/12

Do what my hubby and I did Anubis.  Forget about it all together. 

I didn’t realise until a month afterwards that we had both forgotten our anniversay let alone the fact that it was our 20th!  hahahaha

Anubis says:

09:51am | 23/10/12

@ Tim - is that like the expensive and uncosted NDIS, Gonski or Dental scheme?

As for reduced revenue to the Government. There revenue has actually increased by nearly $40 billion over last year. It’s just that they had bodgy forecasts saying they would have more than what they in reality have. More money in but still unable to get close to a surplus. Pathetic Government.

Dash says:

11:33am | 23/10/12

@Tim - NDIS - un costed and unbudgetted, Gonski school wealth redistribution - un costed and unbugetted, Dental Health Scheme for ALP demographics - uncost and unbugetted, Nauru backflip - un costed and unbugetted.

You have the backflip on the carbon tax pricing model yet the “compensation” scheme bullshit unchanged - whats the cost of that?

Corporate tax compliance changed from 4 cycles to 12 cycles. And a tax called a saving!

“hodge podge” is very accurate in this respect.

And Anubis is correct. The Governments revenue has increased by $39million. To say $160b has been “wiped out” is bullshit! The reality is, Swan and the treasury got their budget estimate wrong! No suprise there as they got last years budget wrong to the tune of $22billion!

But then, Tim the ALP apologist gets on here with the same “look over there”, “we may be shit but so are you” defence for crap government.

Tim says:

12:40pm | 23/10/12

Dash,
it’s actually a different Tim that made this comment but I broadly agree.
Looks like great minds think alike.

“But then, Tim the ALP apologist gets on here with the same “look over there”, “we may be shit but so are you” defence for crap government.”

LOL apologist????
I suppose when you only berate one side of politics for their crap policies whilst completely ignoring (or even lauding) the crap policies of your own “team” it might seem that way.
But why would I ever say “We”? I don’t support the ALP in any sense as you well know.

And I know why you always try to assign me as an ALP supporter because that way you can completely ignore my points because I must be one of those evil ALP trolls rather than having to deal with reality.

Dash, it’s not my fault that you can’t look at issues with even the slightest semblance of balance.

Dash says:

01:33pm | 23/10/12

@Tim - keep telling yourself you have a great mind mate.

At the rate at which you fall for bullshit, I’m sure you’ve already convinced yourself of that. - LOL

Tim says:

03:16pm | 23/10/12

Dash,
I’m not the one on here selectively whinging about one political party whilst completely ignoring that failings of the other party every day.

And I don’t fall for anything, I judge each issue and party on their merits. Perhaps you should try it sometime instead of your usual “rah rah Libs” speech?

Dash says:

04:21pm | 23/10/12

@Tim - Well you seem to be doing ok selectively whinging about the LNP. And you seem to be doing even better whinging about me! In fact you are turning that into an art form (all be it very slowly) - lol

But just a thought: perhaps you are not the well balanced, great minded individual you keep telling us??

TheRealDave says:

10:34am | 23/10/12

If you’ve served you’d know what a stupid comment you’ve just made Greg.

Simon M says:

12:17pm | 23/10/12

Greg,

Not only is that comment insulting, Its also downright Disrepectful.

Try to have a tiny bit of respect for our soldiers KIA

our War Dead shouldn’t be used for snide point scoring

simonfromlakemba says:

01:11pm | 23/10/12

Would be interesting to hear from ppl that have served the different races they have come across in the Army.

I know on the Army page where recruits ask questions there were a few Muslims there who had submitted applications to join which was nice.

I have a few Asian friends in the Army as well but wouldnt know if its widespread.

Dash says:

11:46am | 23/10/12

No, the government’s tax receipts revenue has increased. What you say is not true. the governments total revenue has increased by $38billion since the ALP has been in power.

In fact, in 2000 the LNP were able to generate a surplus of $13.5b off a revenue base of only $167b! The ALP last year delivered a defecit of $40b off a revenue base of $338b!!

And Swan is crying poor! Give me a freakin break!

You’re 70 billion is bullshit. Nice round number that is. Where does it come from? The ALPs treasury? Swannies arse? He only got the budget wrong by $22billion last year!

What is the cost of the NDIS? Where will that come from. What is the cost of the Gonski school scheme? Where will that come from? What is the cost of the Dental care scheme? Were will that come from. What is the cost of the Nauru backflip? Where will that come from?

There will be no surplus because the ALP do not know how to manage the nations finances.

The LNP delivered 8 budget surpluses. The ALP still haven’t delivered a surplus budget. If you are 25 or under, you’ve not lived a day when the ALP was capable of balancing the nations finances!

168.4 billion in ALP debt in 4 short years and rising without a plan to restore the financial state of our nation to where it was when they took office!

168 billion 168 billion 168 billion

And that’s a real number , not some made up bullshit ALP spin!

Tim says:

12:43pm | 23/10/12

“168 billion 168 billion 168 billion”

Dash,
what were the Libs plans to cut 130B+ worth of programs from the budget due to the lower than predicted revenue?

Oh that’s right, they didn’t have any. But you keep prattling on about ALP debt if it makes you feel better.

Draconian says:

01:01pm | 23/10/12

@Dash.  I’m 46 and I’ve never lived a day when the ALP was capable of balancing the nations finances.

Where did you get the under 25 from?

Dash says:

03:58pm | 23/10/12

@Tim - mate why are you rattling on about the LNP.  What’s the point of asking what the LNP’s plan for the federal budget was? The ALP are the government!! They are the ones responsible. And they have failed. “Oh you had no plan” is a stupid argument when they were not responsible! Now you are trying to hold the LNP accountable for an ALP budget. It’s just silly silly stuff again from you!

The ALP has racked up the 168billion.

If they had listened to the LNP when they proposed the second stimulus, that 168m would have been at least $15billion lighter. If they had listened about the NBN it would be a further $40billion lighter. If they hadn’t screwed up the Pink Batts program it would be $4billion lighter. If they hadn’t allowed ALP backed builders to rort the BER taxpayer fund it would be millions lighter! There you go, I’ve just found half of your $130 in ALP waste! If you include the money being thrown around for the Carbon tax compensation bullshit, the $13million for the carbon tax propaganda mailout, the $10million to set up the climate institute, the $21million for fuelwatch, the $13million for grocery choice, the waste from having to rebuild Nauru, the rediculous cost of the huge consultancy bills, the cost of the tax forum and the 2020 summit, not to mention craig tompsons legal bills, Peter Slippers legal bills, the cost of the community forum propaganda talk fests etc etc boy I’ve saved you a shitload!

@ Draconian - I think you have to go way back to the “budget that brings home bacon” to find an ALP surplus. But you’re right, the ALP can’t manage finances and that’s been the case for ever.

Tim says:

04:58pm | 23/10/12

Dash,
The NBN isn’t on the budget.

So out of all that you’ve identified maybe $20B in savings that the Libs possibly would have made if they didn’t increase spending in other areas. Thanks for proving my point.

nihonin says:

01:00pm | 23/10/12

Yes Blind Freddy, the Liberals dog whistle, whereas Labor lead the Choir.  Same coin, opposing sides.

TimB says:

01:49pm | 23/10/12

As an interesting aside, it’s amazing how often the term ‘dog whistle’ is constantly misused.

A dog whistle is a whistle such that when it is blown, only dogs can hear it & react to it. Yet here Blind Freddy is here acknowledging the whistle, and reacting to it. Figure that one out.

As it stands, the decision to cut the Baby Bonus is a good one. But Abbott does have a point when he attacks the one size fits all logic given for it.

All the ALP had to say was they didn’t think we should be paying for the lifestyle choice to have children. Then that would have been that.

TheRealDave says:

03:01pm | 23/10/12

Obama politicized the war?? Obama?!?

The war has been ‘politicized’ since the day we lobbed up back in 2001. Its ALWAYS been politicized! Why do you think we’ve only ever sent a token commitment?

Shit, if anyone actually wanted to do the job properly we would have had more troops and gear in there in the first place and most, if not all, would be home already and we’d probably have fewer names to inscribe on the Memorials walls…