Punch on: Open thread 20/12/2011

fairsfair says:

08:47am | 20/12/11

LOL. My mum can not continue in life is she doesn’t get the calendar from the butcher - you know thoseoldschool ones that just have the single large picture and the tear off months at the bottom. I must admit they are functional and practical in design. Plus then you’ve got the desk calendar, the small diary in the handbag, the desk diary near the phone. I’m not sure what it is with that woman and calendars…. plus.. she hangs them in the most random places with a rank knob of bluetak holding it there. Urgh. Love her to bits

ausspud says:

12:09pm | 20/12/11

@S.L
Now you need a place to put them all without looking like you have some kind of calender fetish.

Alf says:

07:53am | 20/12/11

@acotrel. Speaking of the ides of March.

The NSW State election was in March and Queensland is shaping up to dump Bligh in March 2012.

Damian Parkhill says:

08:05am | 20/12/11

@Shane

Agreed.

Also add in the American NRAA & SOPA acts, otherwise known as the Laws that gives them the right to shut down any web site and detain any one without charge for any length of time and whats left of democracy becomes a real concern.

Ben C says:

08:50am | 20/12/11

How much longer before Americans have their right to vote taken away from them?

Alf says:

07:32am | 20/12/11

@Mahhratt. Here is a couple more quotes:

A dictatorship is a country where they have taken the politics out of politics. Sam Himmell.

I am not a dictator, I just have a grumpy face. Augusto Pinochet.

Adam Diver says:

08:42am | 20/12/11

“Education backed by authority”

What? It sounds like it came straight from North Korea.

“Teach us what we need, then enforce reasonable expectations.”

Hmm, no help there, it sounds totalitarian.

Mahhrat says:

09:33am | 20/12/11

@Adam, why?

Teach children the value of pride, of personal responsibility, of social consciousness.  Let them understand that success is a noble goal in itself, but is based on the premise that everyone else allows you that success and that your success is entirely dependant upon them.

We none of us live in a vacuum.  People far left and far right seem to forget that in pursuit of their various “truths”.

Teach us what we need to think for ourselves, the put sensible limits in place, then enforce those limits.

The biggest problem Australia faces at the moment is that we won’t punish the truly guilty.  When the deterrent (those “good people”) do nothing, evil triumphs.

Tim says:

10:29am | 20/12/11

Mahhrat,
who’s doing the educating?

Shane From Melbourne says:

12:23pm | 20/12/11

Army Cadets and Youth Corps for the lot of them. Gotta get them while they are young….....

Mahhrat says:

12:34pm | 20/12/11

@Tim: Everyone.  That’s kind of the point of “individual responsibility”; being responsible as an educator.  I teach my children appropriate values; you teach your children the same.

The way we treat our schools as day-care centres, education institutions, babysitters, moral guardians and whatever else while we run around buying our latest SUV is nothing short of disgraceful.  They are only half the job, if that.  A school should teach the RRRs and life skills, with extra “moral” subjects thrown in if they’re a private school and the parents want that for their kids.

Adam Diver says:

02:34pm | 20/12/11

@ Tim, that was my next thought.

@ Mahhrat, I mostly agree but your summary needs work

Elizabeth1 says:

06:20pm | 20/12/11

I like it Mahhrat. I saw some research this week that showed that children as young as 8 months old can identify poor deeds. They can even value punishment and like people who punish bad deeds and dislike people who reward or fail to punish. I don’t think it would take much to strengthen those natural traits. I believe our biggest problem is status.  Status should be accorded to who you are as a contributor to your society not by how much money and power you can accumulate with no regard as to how you made it or how you spend it.

SimonFromLakemba says:

11:11am | 20/12/11

Difference is I don’t think America needed Mubarak anymore, he only really helped them out by agreeing to acknowledge Israel and suppressing the salafi’s

They always need the Saudi Royal Family.

Tim says:

06:47am | 20/12/11

The problem you’ve got with the debate you’re talking about is its been politicised.
One side treat the science as a religion, refusing to look at real world solutions because “we’re all going to diiieeeeee!!!”.
And the other side oppose because the solutions proposed won’t work and are tinged with the ideology of their opponents. These people won’t support it because “we’ll all be roooonnnneeeedddd!!!”.

Kipling says:

07:05am | 20/12/11

Yep, and that fairly pointedly reflects EXACTLY what took place over lead in our petrol debate some decades ago.

Yet, we are still here, despite or perhaps because the lead was removed from petrol…

I reckon the debate I am talking about is the modern version and is simiply a case of same shit different day…

gobsmack says:

08:18am | 20/12/11

There really is no comparison and this seems nothing more than a shallow attempt to bring up the climate change argument again.
In the case of leaded petrol, the forces for maintaining the status quo were powerful companies that wanted to maintain profit.  While those companies might have employed stooges to discredit the science (in a similar fashion to the stooges employed by tobacco companies or, more recently, be energy companies) there was no serious disagreement amongst the scientific community regarding the dangers of lead to humans.

acotrel says:

08:43am | 20/12/11

@Gobsmack
The only reason that climate change is ever argued is because the science indicates that the neoliberal ideology leads to unsustainability, now in the short term.  It means that the solutions to poverty provided by the industrial revolution cannot be extrapolated to infinity, and we must change our mindset.

Adam Diver says:

08:47am | 20/12/11

From what I understand, there is little to no evidence of adverse effects from lead petrol.

“there is no scientific evidence that shows that lead from vehicle exhaust poses danger as an air pollutant. That is because most is dropped as a lead bromide powder onto the ground.[viii] To date, the EPA has not been able to explain the falling blood lead levels to less than 50% of their 1935 figure throughout middle 20th century when petrol emissions had actually risen by 700%. Landrigan’s testing of the effects of lead poisoning on children and was then generalized to adults. However, children are more susceptible to harmful effects because their chance of intake is higher because they have a natural tendency to put things in their mouths, placing them at higher risk of lead intake. Additionally, children have higher physiological uptake rates and are still in the developmental phases, enabling lead content in the environment to be more influential. These same effects have not shown to be applicable to adult populations as they are larger and can withstand exposure to greater quantities of lead, more than might result from automobile exhaust, before toxicity becomes an issue”

Same with CFC’s, the evidence is based on assumptions predominantly with little actual evidence. Its all a little bit of history repeating…

Tim says:

09:21am | 20/12/11

gobsmack,
” there was no serious disagreement amongst the scientific community regarding the dangers of lead to humans. “

And there’s no serious disagreement amongst the scientific community regarding the dangers of climate change to humans.
The only disagreement is in the level of climate change we will experience and how we can adjust.

gobsmack says:

12:55pm | 20/12/11

@Adam Diver
You reminded me of a chemistry assignment I had uni years ago.  The lecturer suspected that lead from exhaust fumes would accumulate on roofing and then wash down on to a vegie patch (which I think was in his backyard).  My partner in the assignment and I were required to test the tomato plants growing in the patch and lawns at various distance from the road.  We ended up finding next to nothing and got a bare pass for the assignment (although neither of us were great chemists).
The falling lead levels from 1935 probably has more to do with the decreasing prevalence of lead in paints used in things like the outside of pencils and toys than vehicle exhausts.

SimonFromLakemba says:

11:12am | 20/12/11

Why would you bring yourself down to that level?

Shane From Melbourne says:

09:24am | 20/12/11

It’s not a real attempted coup if it doesn’t have tanks in it…....

James1 says:

09:25am | 20/12/11

That’s politics, Pacific style.

My favourite South Pacific political incident was the Coconut War on the island of Espiritu Santo in the New Hebrides as it was decolonised and became Vanuatu.  As it approached independence, a local leader on Santo called Jimmy Stevens declared independence.  No one listened or cared, so Santo stayed part of the New Hebrides.  A year later, he tried again.  Again, no one cared or listened.  So he tried a third time, this time backed by an army of warriors carrying clubs and bows and arrows, powerful francophone landed interests on Santo (and some shadowy American libertarians looking to set up a libertarian utopia), and this time the authorities listened.  The British sent some commandos, who never made it to Santo and sat on a beach near Vila drinking coconuts for several months before being recalled.  The French had soldiers on Santo, but they had no white flags and thus weren’t equipped for battle. 

In the end, the father of independence - Walter Lini - asked Papua New Guinea to help.  The PNG Defence Force’s elite - Kumul Force - landed on Santo and quickly confronted the virtually unarmed warriors, and ended the war in a matter of weeks.  The war ended after its first casualty - the son of Jimmy Stevens, who was killed by a grenade after running a roadblock in one of Stevens’ five 4WDs.  Once Stevens heard about this, he gave up immediately.

ausspud says:

12:19pm | 20/12/11

To have one conspiracy is fair enough but when you think everything governments do is a conspiracy, well that just makes you a fruit-loop.

Godwin says:

01:31pm | 20/12/11

Sounds like Hitler too!

John says:

02:24pm | 20/12/11

Well not everything, but some things. I’m not the only one that believes that osama bin laden killing was entirely fictional. There are millions of me’s all over the west who believe in the contrary. The western media and governments over the world are losing creditability for their lies. It’s just a matter of time the lying stench collapses. If the media wants creditability then start reporting that 9/11 was brought down via explosives, that osama bin laden killing was a lie. The truth will bring an entire western regime to it’s knees.

iansand says:

02:59pm | 20/12/11

I’m curious John.  What information to you have that leads you to believe that the killing was fictional?  Not suspicion, information.

John says:

03:20pm | 20/12/11

iansand says:“What information to you have that leads you to believe that the killing was fictional? “

1. The information came from the US government.
2.  I know that bin laden was not involved in the 9/11 attacks.
3. It gained political points for Obama while on his birth certificate saga
4. No pictures of the body, or video
5. Body dumped in the sea very quickly after spending trillions of dollars finding him.
6. Bin Laden was irrelevant character. (did not put explosives in the WTC towers)
7. The entire navy seal team was killed in an accident
8. I suspect the seal team was just made up, they don’t exist or ever existed in reality.
9. The western media, politicians are liars, assume everything is a lie first in order to be safe. Liars until proven honest.
10. The war was never about bin laden.
11. 9/11 was not work of al-qaeda or bin laden.
12. Hilary was in office when it occurred, Clinton’s have a history of corruption and lies.

James1 says:

03:58pm | 20/12/11

John, sorry to pick on you fella, but there are some issues with your list.  The only source we have for 5, 7 and 12 is the US government.  If 1 is true, then 5, 7, and 12 must be false.  But if 5, 7, or 12 are true, then 1 is false.

Your list contains internal contradictions.

Semi Concerned Citizen says:

04:30pm | 20/12/11

John,

Please look further into number 7 on your list. I think you will find soldiers from the same platoon/company were killed and they also stated no bin laden slayers were killed in the crash.

Although if you abide by number 1 I guess anythings possible.

iansand says:

05:03pm | 20/12/11

Suspicion then.

NicoleG says:

08:56am | 20/12/11

What? Turnbull is credible and electable? Good Lord nossy, did you bump your head?

fairsfair says:

09:04am | 20/12/11

Nossy I live in hope that Gillard and Abbott go, to a point where I would support Malcolm Turnbull having another crack at the top. I’m not sure who I think in the ALP, perhaps Stephen Smith. Though I think Abbott is a good politician at times - he is like Kim Beazley, the electorate just don’t want him - however, we will never know that if he doesn’t go to the next election I guess.

I’ve said it before. I will launch the Fiesta thought the doors of parliament house if KRudd gets back to the top. I can’t stand that man, and it was not until he left office that I realised I could not stand him. He is a condescending dweeb and does not represent Australia well.

I don’t agree that the coalition have a policy vacuum. I just think that people don’t care to hear them and I’m not joking, even if there are no policies, ‘wingin it’ would probably be more beneficial to the country then some of the Labor suggestions.

All that aside, sorry Nossy - love you heaps - but you don’t have the best track record with predictions champ

mick says:

09:34am | 20/12/11

For once nossy I have to agree.  The sooner Abbott is packed away in the big business closet the better. 

Turnball has a brain so at least you’ll get some discussion. 

Rudd….......well, I think you could do better.  Having heard Combet speak you could do worse.  At least the electorate won’t be spoken to like idiots or small children as currently occurs.

nossy says:

09:39am | 20/12/11

@fairsfair and Nicole - I am not a Rudd fan either but there seems to be a lot of momentum gathering behind a Rudd push - lets not forget too he was an “elected” PM who was ousted by the ALP heavies and he has yet to face the voters - he just might get that chance - having said that Gillard is a tough little bugger who will be hard to shift.

Peter says:

09:47am | 20/12/11

Please god, not Rudd again!  I would almost vote for Tony Abbott over Rudd.  Almost.  But I’d certainly park my vote with Turnbull, if he could pull a decent team together.  Make Hockey the minister for tourism or something that he can handle.  Get rid of Pyne.  In the meantime, I’ll stick with Gillard and Swan.

nossy says:

09:47am | 20/12/11

@mick you are a wise man mick - I did say last week if they put Shorten up as PM I will personally volunteer to help Abbott shift into the Lodge - political suicide that fellow. Smith a nice man but “colourless”.

NicoleG says:

10:08am | 20/12/11

You know what? I am truly sick to death of the whole fucking lot of them. This latest boat sinking has just made me snap. It’s your fault, no it’s your fault. Blah, blah, blah. People have died. Children have died and all they can do is throw shit at each other. I’d like to sack them all and start again!

fairsfair says:

10:23am | 20/12/11

Stephen Smith and Malcolm Turnbull at least appear stately. I am sick of having dumb and dumber standing at the lectern. I long for the days when you can listen to the leader of either party speak to a crowd and actually communicate (and not cringe with embarassment).

NicoleG says:

10:30am | 20/12/11

Sorry for swearing in front of you nossy. 

Alf says:

10:31am | 20/12/11

In your dreams nossy. The reality will be:

Rudd will agitate to a point where Gillard will have to act and sack him. The backlash will cause the ALP to fall like a house of cards.

Abbott just needs to sit and watch. He will be our next PM - by a country mile.

Peter says:

11:12am | 20/12/11

@Alf - “Abbott just needs to sit and watch. He will be our next PM - by a country mile.”

And I assume you think that is a good thing.  Just wondering, why?  Honestly.

nossy says:

11:22am | 20/12/11

@NicoleG reed Nicole lets get rid of the lot of this bad bunch - surely now with good salaries we could attract much better class of pollie - PULEASE - anyone want to try?

Ben C says:

11:26am | 20/12/11

I will take anyone but Rudd, Gillard and Swan as PM. To be honest, I’m just waiting for Shorten to have a crack at Julia.

Abbott needs to promote his policy stronger than he has in the past, or face being shafted. I don’t think he can afford to sit back and watch the ALP implode, especially if a new leader comes in.

Joan says:

11:35am | 20/12/11

Tanya Plibesek all ready mixed up and confused giving out wrong information to pensioners - 2012 will see pensioners paying $5.80 per perscription and not $5.60 as she is going about telling all.  She can’t even get that simple fact right - she`s sure gonna mess up Health one big heap 2012.

nossy says:

11:56am | 20/12/11

@Joan merry christmas to you Joan and a happy new year!  xxxxx some kisses from nossy.

Alf says:

01:43pm | 20/12/11

@Peter.  Abbott is the leader of the opposition, he is the alternative PM. Any speculation over an alternative leader of the coalition is hypothetical (and not about to happen).

You think Rudd and Gillard are a good thing? Just wondering, why?  Honestly.

glenm says:

02:09pm | 20/12/11

@nossy,

How do you suggest the ALP sell Rudd to the electorate at the next   election , the slogan could be…
” Moving Back ” to a good government thats found its way,  trust me I’m Kevin and I’m here to help “

Any other sugestions?

Joan says:

02:27pm | 20/12/11

@nossy 12.56pm:  thank you nossy for the unexpected good wishes. Tis the season to be jolly- and a Ho! Ho! Ho! one big top of the season smoooooch for you! All the best to you from Joan and Joanie smoooooooooooooch !!!!!!

nossy says:

03:08pm | 20/12/11

@glenm personally glen I dont give a rats arse how they sell him - thats the ALP’s problem not mine fella. Merry Christmas to you Glen.

Alf says:

10:54am | 20/12/11

@Tony. “I’ll predict that the lying redhead comes up with something meaningless”.

Very predictable. She has turned ‘meaninglessness’ into an art form. Even that must be Tony Abbotts fault.

Freddo says:

11:46am | 20/12/11

What planet are you on?

Tremendous success for GIllard this year. Shocker for Abbott and Co.

Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

ausspud says:

12:28pm | 20/12/11

@ Freddo
“Tremendous success for GIllard this year. Shocker for Abbott and Co”
Excellent piece of sarcasm(I hope)

Alf says:

02:03pm | 20/12/11

@Freddo. “Tremendous success for GIllard this year”.

Is this what you call success Freddo:

Education revolution - fail.
Border protection - fail.
Root and branch tax reform - fail.
National health care - fail.
BER, Pink-bats - fail.
National debt $141b - fail.

Other than that, she can take full credit for Labor’s 21% primary support.

Alf says:

05:02pm | 20/12/11

@Freddo. “What planet are you on?”

Melmac. How about you?

jay-ded says:

10:09am | 20/12/11

Hahahaha - Never heard it before nossy.  Still having a little giggle. 

nossy says:

11:18am | 20/12/11

@jay-ded   thats 2 days in a row I have made you laugh jay-ded!  hahah you liked the santa one yesterday didnt you? I will put the link in again in case anyone missed it and needs a laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_PySjoFfk

jay-ded says:

11:34am | 20/12/11

Ah, but can you make it three days in a row?  hehehe   Eagerly awaiting tomorrows link.

jay-ded says:

10:10am | 20/12/11

Why?  Have you fallen off one recently?

Peter says:

11:04am | 20/12/11

Read the papers mate.  Another guy in Sydney fell 8 stories doing a stunt on his balcony.  Seems this happens all the time.

jay-ded says:

11:36am | 20/12/11

@ Peter, yes I know, I saw it this morning.  My comment was referring to the wording of your comment.

Tim says:

11:40am | 20/12/11

One guy is all the time now?

Peter says:

11:58am | 20/12/11

@Tim - honestly, i feel like i’ve read abourt this kind of stuff many times.  Schooly kids at Surfers Paradise, Planking, etc.  Maybe in my imagination, but seems to happen a lot.

Tim says:

12:47pm | 20/12/11

Peter,
I think it’s just the reporting of these matters that might have increased, not the actually incidences.
Add in a little confirmation bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
and it’s happening all the time.

Yuri says:

03:38pm | 20/12/11

@Tim

But does confirmation bias even exist?

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2444#comic

James1 says:

10:46am | 20/12/11

That’s awesome.

gobsmack says:

10:53am | 20/12/11

That’s hilarious.  Thank you for posting the link.

nossy says:

11:30am | 20/12/11

@RyaN bloody brilliant ryaN - your best post of the year fella!

RyaN says:

01:41pm | 20/12/11

Pure genius by the advertising company! Glad you fellas enjoyed.

NicoleG says:

11:15am | 20/12/11

That is so nice. It made me cry.

fairsfair says:

11:30am | 20/12/11

I blubbed too. Thanks Mr Sanderson, that was a very sweet read.

nossy says:

11:32am | 20/12/11

@iansand beautiful stuff iansand - as a dog owner myself I can say it hurts like buggery when a pet dies - best wishes Malcolm and family

Ben C says:

01:19pm | 20/12/11

Beautiful words for a beautiful dog.

iansand says:

02:27pm | 20/12/11

fairs - TimB thinks using my name is cool.  MarK thought using my name was cool.  RyaN has done it a couple of times.

As is apparent, you are in pretty dodgy company.  Grow up, and leave the kiddies behind.  If you continue I will start calling you FairsfaiR - you will not be able to live with the shame.

Erick says:

06:49pm | 20/12/11

Awww, moderators didn’t like my Matrix quotes?

*sulks*

fairsfair says:

07:42pm | 20/12/11

Lol iansand Sorry - it is a habit, in real life I call people Mr and Mrs even when I know their first name and they don’t expect to be called Mr and Mrs/Ms/Miss.

I’ll stick with iansand as I dare not take on the capitals!

bahaha Erick - I said it in that voice too

RyaN says:

08:46am | 21/12/11

@iansand: eh what? Are you accusing me of posting under your name?

Tim says:

11:48am | 20/12/11

Vegemite is one of the foulest foods on the planet.
Just the smell makes me want to vomit.
*shivers*

nossy says:

11:53am | 20/12/11

@Elphaba   Kevin Rudds favourute spread Elphaba - Vegemite - my goodness am I detecting a trend here?

Joel B1 says:

12:21pm | 20/12/11

Ok…..

Coles have bags of Smiths Vegemite Chips on (remainder) sale for 20c.

I’ve bought several and in a taste trial of 20 people only one didn’t vomit.

Vegemite good! Smith Potato Crisps good!

Together they’re just like the ALP and The Greens.

Joel B1 says:

12:32pm | 20/12/11

nossy,

you’ve forgotten everything you ever learnt, a trend requires more than two (2) observations.

Still, you are a die-hard ALPer so perhaps we shouldn’t expect too much.

Have a happy Xmas, I’m sure you’ll be working out how much of your money is going to prop up corrupt regimes under the $10Bn Gillard is giving to them via the UN from the CO2 rip-off.

Elphaba says:

12:39pm | 20/12/11

@nossy, I like Vegemite therefore I’m a Labor supporter?  Lol!

gobsmack says:

12:43pm | 20/12/11

Vegemite on toast, with a strong cup of tea, is good hangover food.

Redeker Plan says:

12:50pm | 20/12/11

@Elphaba.

Yep, vegemite on fresh rolls…Yum!  I loved that as a kid, but haven’t had it for years; I may have to revisit over the holidays. 

Similarly, the other day the cupboard was pretty bare, and I indulged in a couple of slices of bread with real butter to tide me over until dinner. No vegemite, no jam, just butter. It was delicious, and reminded me of when I used to spend my school holidays with Nana in the country as a young’un.  I was an atrociously picky eater when I was a kid, but the country air used to make me ravenous and dinner was always finished off by a couple of slices of bread and butter to fill me up.

Oh, and another favourite that an old aunt introduced me to - Granita biscuits with butter on them.  Mmmm butter.

Alf says:

04:22pm | 20/12/11

Billy Connolly once described Vegemite as: “like licking a cats arse”. I don’t know how he found the found the comparison.

nossy says:

04:59pm | 20/12/11

@Joel B1   merry christmas to you to joel and may 2012 be a beauty for you fella.

Erick says:

05:00pm | 20/12/11

@Alf - Yeash. I don’t know either. Why would he have tried Vegemite?

Redeker Plan says:

12:56pm | 20/12/11

Shenanigans.

Well done, that’s put a smile on my face!  Good luck with your fort-buddy!

Ben C says:

01:03pm | 20/12/11

Haha, your stories about your physio just get better by the day Shen.

Elphaba says:

01:20pm | 20/12/11

*smug*

I knew your whining about dating being a suckers game was nothing more than bluster.

You’re way too young to be that bitter.

jay-ded says:

01:23pm | 20/12/11

Awesome Shen.  Personally, I would have suggested taking the boxes outside and riding them down a grassy hill - but that’s just me. 

Cardboard forts are good too !

Shenanigans says:

01:34pm | 20/12/11

She starts physically abusing me again tomorrow. Least now I don’t have to go find a physio open during Christmas, I got my very own one who can come to me :p

Shenanigans says:

01:42pm | 20/12/11

A bluster it may have been, but I believed it till I met my physio. She is fair amazing :p this shoulder reconnstruction was a blessing in disguise

Tim says:

02:00pm | 20/12/11

Now you just have to invite her to Mooseheads and go the drunken pash.

shenanigans says:

02:15pm | 20/12/11

Tim, mate, I got more class then that bro :p but thanks for the offer but seriously, I hate mooseheads with a burning passion. Unipub FTW! And drunken pash’s suck, would rather remember the first kiss :p

James1 says:

02:49pm | 20/12/11

I prefer the Front in Lyneham, but then I like to pour scorn on the hipsters, so I would say that.

I reckon take her to the Front, Shen - at least then you won’t have to shave, brush your hair, or dress well and you will still look impressive compared to the hipsters.

SimonFromLakemba says:

04:01pm | 20/12/11

I think ICBM or Shooters may be better…..

HAHAHA

Shenanigans says:

05:45pm | 20/12/11

I know i’ll take her to cube…......... *cough*

Alf says:

06:00pm | 20/12/11

@Shenanigans.

You can have her….I am over he now. Wasn’t much of a physio either.

Tony of Poorakistan says:

04:15pm | 20/12/11

Nothing quite like a Bondi cigar first thing in the morning whilst swimming ...

Alf says:

06:06pm | 20/12/11

Not swimming, but going through the motions.

SimonFromLakembas says:

04:02pm | 20/12/11

ALP just came up with another policy

nossy says:

05:03pm | 20/12/11

@jay-ded   yeah all clear jay-ded - Bob Browns solar panel just caught fire!  hahahahah