Punch on: Open thread 19/10/2011

Elphaba says:

07:59am | 19/10/11

Exactly.

Ask them to give up their worldly possessions for the greater good and they’d start muttering “Move along, move along…”

Tim says:

08:17am | 19/10/11

Huh?
Weren’t you the one saying that the convoy protesters a few months ago that went (or didn’t) to Canberra were good citizens who frustrated with the political process and were excercising their right to legitimate protest? 
These protesters are cut from the same cloth just on different sides of the political spectrum. They are just as extreme as each other.
The irony in your comment is delicious.

SimonFromLakemba says:

08:23am | 19/10/11

@Tim

Erick and conservatives both share the same belief, they are never wrong.

TimB says:

08:27am | 19/10/11

Tim, their demands are very different. I think you’ve missed the point of Erick’s comment.

Erick says:

09:04am | 19/10/11

@Tim - I don’t think that’s what “irony” means.

I support most of the aims of one group of protesters. I oppose most of the aims of the other group of protesters.

I didn’t say anything at all about either group’s right to protest - a right that is equally shared by both.

Tim says:

09:20am | 19/10/11

TimB,
I know their demands are completely different but their methods and lack of a cohesive message are very similar.
So are the extreme elements that were involved in both.

Erick was on here defending the convoy participants as good old down to earth citizens with a valid message yet calls these protesters:

“extreme fringe lefties who protest everything.”

Where was the similar rhetoric before?

andye says:

09:39am | 19/10/11

@TimB - The point being that people you disagree with are wrong to protest and people you agree with are right?

The protesters aren’t stealing. They are just making their voices heard. To conflate theft with free speech is quite vile and very clearly illuminates the double standard you and Erick hold.

I’ve honestly got no strong feelings about these guys either way. I think it is a poorly focused and ineffectual protest. They have the right to make this noise, however - whether you like it or not.

John says:

09:45am | 19/10/11

Isn’t this another phoney movement? Like the Middle eastern CIA backed movements? In Libya, Egypt and other country’s. All these protests most likely believe they doing it for a good cause, but in reality i suspect they are pawns.

These protests could be CIA organized and planned to counter legitimate protest movements such as the TEA party and the Nationalists of Europe. After all the Far-Left movements have been used for years by the governments to counter Nationalist and Conservative threats. So my take on these protests as just to cause division between and to try to create a counter TEA party movement in the US, lead by feeble minded far-left communists.

So in a sense far-left communists are minions to the international bankers they whinge about. Pawns in a political power game.

In Europe they have these movement’s they call them anti-fa, English defamation league which are highly suspected of being government funded and supported. People you need to try and think one step ahead of the order that rules over western society.

neo says:

09:56am | 19/10/11

To be fair to them, no one deserves to earn millions of dollars a year. There is not a thing you can do to deserve that much money, and people are getting fed up. Greed and slyness should not pay off, and this message is being made pretty clear.

I, personally, don’t want a cent from the fat cats, I want their money to be distributed to those who are starving to death in the world.

Bring on this wave of socialism, God knows this world needs it.

TimB says:

10:10am | 19/10/11

@ Andye- “The point being that people you disagree with are wrong to protest and people you agree with are right?”

Where did I say that? Don’t put words in my mouth.

No-one here is saying that they don’t have a right to protest. What Erick is doing is simply pointing out the amusing comparison between the protester’s demands &  their personal complaints.

That’s why the carbon tax protesters have nothing to do with this. This is a specific observation about a specific demand, not an observation about protesters generally.

BTW Re. “The protesters aren’t stealing” ? Perhaps not, but they’re definetly being violent. And I wouldn’t be suprised if there was some looting (i.e stealing) going on in the middle of all that.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Italy-cracks-down-on-anarchists-after-riot-2221126.php

TimB says:

10:28am | 19/10/11

“To be fair to them, no one deserves to earn millions of dollars a year. There is not a thing you can do to deserve that much money, and people are getting fed up.”

Says who? You? Hypothetical:

I’ve invented a new product. It’s simple yet ingenious, and it fits right in the palm of your hand.  Every person in the world owns one of these, and in many cases, three or four!

Bottom line- I’ve made BILLIONS in profit. And then you turn around and tell me that I don’t deserve it.  “Screw you” will be my response. Then I’ll fly away with my golden jetpack. Because I can.

These protesters act like the wealth that rich people have has been somehow been directly ripped right from the pockets of protesters. Crap.

andye says:

10:38am | 19/10/11

@ TimB - Wasnt Erick’s example about the Wall St ones, not the Italian ones?

Oh that’s right. All leftists are part of the same hive mind. I totally forgot.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

10:39am | 19/10/11

Elphaba - they don’t have worldy possessions and that’s why they want yours.

Erick says:

10:58am | 19/10/11

@andye - All the “occupy” protests are a part of the same global protest movement. They say this themselves.

As for hive minds, have you seen those creepy videos where everyone chants the words of the speaker in unison? That’s real pod-people stuff.

You couldn’t make these things up.

Elphaba says:

11:01am | 19/10/11

@MadKat, did you read Erick’s article?

The one that sticks in my mind was the person complaining about their $5,500 laptop being nicked.

Sure.  They’ve got nothing.  My heart bleeds.  Not.

Shane From Melbourne says:

11:05am | 19/10/11

@Tim B-
“I’ve invented a new product. It’s simple yet ingenious, and it fits right in the palm of your hand.  Every person in the world owns one of these, and in many cases, three or four!”
WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT- The Corporations that are getting bailed out are in the financial sector. The only product they have invented are toxic CDOs, CDS and junk bonds. Savings and Loans, Internet Bubble, Enron,2008 Global Financial Crisis. They are nothing but con men paying rating agencies like Standard and Poor to rate CDOs that have a fair proportion of sub prime mortgages as AAA. Corporations like Goldman Sachs helping the Greek Government to hide their debt from other European institutions.

As for Australian invention and innovation, how many Australian inventions have gone overseas due to the lack of funding or investment? A hell of a lot. If it doesn’t involve digging a hole in the ground then the punters aren’t interested.

neo says:

11:05am | 19/10/11

Tim, yes, say I, and say the protesters.

As for your hypothetical, no, you don’t deserve all that money, excess should only take place if everyone in this world is at least fed, has access to clean water and shelter. If everyone’s basic needs are satisfied, then you can make your billions or whatever, but until then, please refrain from filling your pockets - you can’t eat money, as it has been plainly put on some of the signs.

And the “screw you” attitude of the fat cats is exactly the cause of these protests. They are blinded by greed, they don’t realise that if they do not correct their ways, sooner or later they will be forced to do so, it has happened before in numerous countries and it will happen again. Time to redistribute money, time to address the problem now and find a peaceful solution, before the mobs truly rally.

Anubis says:

11:12am | 19/10/11

@ TimB - yiou say ” I’ve made BILLIONS in profit” That would seem to indicate then that your product is overpriced - then you say “act like the wealth that rich people have has been somehow been directly ripped right from the pockets ” if your product is overpriced and has generated billions in profits then, yes, you are ripping the money straight from peoples pockets.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

11:17am | 19/10/11

Elphaba - before you go attacking me I was agreeing with you - its tongue in cheek. Some people are just to ready to attack without reading posts properly. Do you really think I would seriously be advocating for these people to be able to take other people’s possessions?

SimonFromLakemba says:

11:21am | 19/10/11

“These protesters act like the wealth that rich people have has been somehow been directly ripped right from the pockets of protesters. Crap”

Honestly, pretty outlandish comment, Id like see how their super or pension is! there is a pretty big difference btween inventing something and commiting fraudulent acts to make yourself $100’s of millions of dollars

A hell of a lot of people have lost it all because the investment firms were gambling with other peoples money, making up new products out of thin air as they went along.

Some CDOs were filled with 70% sub prime mortgages and then to rub it in there were ‘shorting’ against their own CDOs losing value!!!

Elphaba says:

11:22am | 19/10/11

@Madkat, as always, tone is difficult to distinguish online.  I read your post just fine.

It wasn’t an attack, it was a statement.  However, in the interests of clearing the air, I apologise.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

11:50am | 19/10/11

neo - “I, personally, don’t want a cent from the fat cats, I want their money to be distributed to those who are starving to death in the world” - you could redistribute all the money in the world and people would still be starving. It’s not the lack of money that leads to starvation of poverty stricken countries and chucking money at them is not the answer.

You should read what’s been written by economists like Hernando de Soto who is co-chair of the World Justice Project. Or hop onto Transparency International’s website to read about the links between corruption and poverty.

TimB says:

11:54am | 19/10/11

@ Shane those are rather specific examples. You miss my point. Neo (and others associated with this entire protest) seem to think that no matter *how* you come by your wealth, you don’t deserve it. And that’s crap.
If you take his logic to its obvious conclusion, it means no-one has to bother earning *anything*. It will all just be provided to you by those who have more than you. So where’s the incentive in life? Humanity would stagnate.

Yes it sucks that there are people with problems in the world. But how many millions of dollars of aid has already been thrown at the issues Neo alludes to? They still exist. Clearly a different practical solution is required, not just endless handouts.

But going back to your specific examples of the financial sector corporations being bailed out. Whilst one can argue if a bailout should/should not have happened and the ramifications of each option, I fail to see how that should materially affect the protestors.

So the corporations don’t get the money. What, so that means the protesters do? The corporations may not have earnt a bailout, but the protesters haven’t done anything to deserve the money either
They’d only get it indirectly, with the government having more cash to spend on services and whatnot. For everyone. Not just protesting lefties.

@ Anubis
A) people have clearly *chosen* to buy my hypothetical product so no “ripping” is involved.
B) Just because I’ve made a massive profit it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s overpriced. It could just mean I’ve sold a shitton of said product. (which in my example I did )

MadKat of Melbourne says:

12:47pm | 19/10/11

SimonFromLakemba says:09:23am | 19/10/11 “@Tim -Erick and conservatives both share the same belief, they are never wrong.”

And the left always believe its always someone else’s fault or someone else’s responsibility.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

12:49pm | 19/10/11

Anubis “@ TimB - yiou say ” I’ve made BILLIONS in profit” That would seem to indicate then that your product is overpriced” - strawman bs

Shane* says:

12:50pm | 19/10/11

@TimB

Don’t despair. I got your Simpsons reference.

TimB says:

01:28pm | 19/10/11

lol, Thanks Shane*. I wondered if it was too subtle .

(It was hardly the point of my post but I couldn’t resist slipping it in )

neo says:

01:59pm | 19/10/11

“If you take his logic to its obvious conclusion, it means no-one has to bother earning *anything*. It will all just be provided to you by those who have more than you. So where’s the incentive in life? Humanity would stagnate.”

Nope, the idea is everyone does their part, not for money, but for the sake of making a contribution. Yeah, it’s idealist, but it is also ideal.

There are only so many hours in a day, the only way you can earn more than the maximum is if you start getting others to do the work and pay them less than what their work is worth, pocketing the surplus. Clever, yes, sly, yes, right? Nope.

I’m not advocating pure Communism, it is unlikely until people start to think as a commune and not as a selfish pig that they are. I am only speaking out against the ridiculous amounts of money some individuals earn, more money than they or their trust fund babies can ever spend.

As for the rest, believe me, if enough money is thrown at it, hunger can be beaten, the problem is some people prefer to buy another Ferrari.

TimB says:

02:52pm | 19/10/11

“Nope, the idea is everyone does their part, not for money, but for the sake of making a contribution. Yeah, it’s idealist, but it is also ideal.”

As you say this is far to idealistic. It’s *never* going to happen. There will always be people who decided to do less than others. And once you have some people contributing more effort than others to the society, it’s a slippery slide.

That’s why I disagree with your attitude towards the rich in general. If, as per my example, someone had a moment of brilliance and came up with something that society is willing to pay for to make their lives better…why shouldn’t that person enjoy a reward for what they have achieved? Why should he have to then give away the fruits of his success to those who couldn’t be bothered?

What we should be working on, as a society, is to provide the environment for everyone to have the potential and opportunity to become the person I described in my hypothetical example. No more. No less.
I agree that this scenrio does not exist worldwide, and agree we should do what we can to remedy that. But that doesn’t mean just taking from those who have and giving to the have-nots. It’s not that simple.

neo says:

03:26pm | 19/10/11

I know, we can only dream right. There will always be lazy people who want to do less than others, as there will always be greedy people who want to be better than others.

And don’t get me wrong, I am all for rewarding people who do good work. I just think some people’s rewards are awfully overestimated. Yes, you are a CEO of a company, you work long hours, you have a lot of responsibility. Have the reward proportional to your effort, earn more so you can enjoy finer wines and better holidays. But once you start earning enough to be able to afford a new Porshe every year, I think we have a problem, as long as others are dying of hunger anyway.

Tim says:

03:34pm | 19/10/11

neo,
your post supposes that people are of equal ability.
This is patently false.

neo says:

04:04pm | 19/10/11

Precisely, we are not! Me and you are intelligent beings, we can read and write at the very least, many others can’t! Some because they never bothered to learn, some because they never had the opportunity. But I can tell you one thing, we all feel emotions, we all have dreams, we all want to focus on things we enjoy and not worry about whether we have enough food for tomorrow, we will die just the same, and that is what, ultimately, makes us equal. Some can do more, some can do less, as long as everyone does their honest best, I am happy to do the work that requires wits and leave the manual labor to others. I am happy to get the same amount of money for it as well, even though I may have a higher intellectual capacity. We will never move forward until we start thinking as citizens of Earth, and not as individuals or races. We have wasted so much time already, holding ourselves back with wars, politics and cultural differences, with greed as the driving force behind it.

Mikeymike says:

11:35am | 20/10/11

Hold on Erick, you’re out of line on this one.
While the “Oppose corporate greed” mob have the share of the media’s attention at the moment, the occupy movement is also made up of those that lost their houses in the GFC.  Those people, that thanks to woeful oversight of regulatory bodies, corruption in the ratings agencies and failures of accountability in banking have lost their homes.
Thankfully, we have been largely shielded from that in Australia.
If I had lost my home and my job, seen my taxes bail out the banks that made that situation in the first place, then see those same bankers take home their massive salaries and bonuses…  Yeah, I’d be pretty annoyed too.

Anubis says:

08:27am | 19/10/11

More like “Underarm deodorant, when do we need it….....yesterday!”

RyaN says:

09:44am | 19/10/11

Soap, water and scrubbing brush? Extra hard bristles!

TChong says:

06:22am | 19/10/11

maybe they didnt want to be arrested, or face employment problems for protesting ?
You believe in a persons right to protest, without getting sacked, or arrested, dont you Brian?

iansand says:

06:22am | 19/10/11

Fashion statement

Trevor says:

06:36am | 19/10/11

Don’t be naive Brian.

gobsmack says:

06:42am | 19/10/11

That guy in the centre raising his arm looks like Tony Abbott.  What’s he up to?

Fran Smith says:

06:55am | 19/10/11

They always hide their faces to make it more difficult for the police to identify them when they commit crimes (as the usual leftist rabble do at every protest). Remember the 2006 G20 summit in Melbourne? Protesters dressing in white, full-body suits and white surgical masks hurling rocks and anything else they could get their slimy hands on at the police. They hide their faces because they are cowards. Plain and simple.

TimB says:

07:18am | 19/10/11

Chongy *why* would they be arrested for protesting?

Unless they’re up to something more than mere peaceful protest….

As for ‘employment problems’...assuming they *have* a job (big if), then unless they’ve explicitly arranged with their boss to have the time off, why *shouldn’t* they face ‘employment problems’?

TChong says:

07:50am | 19/10/11

TimB
I was thinking more along the lines that a protester faces similar problems as FaceBookers- a persons thoughts, words, or actions, may , completely out of context, come back and bite.
Have you never ( bad english I know) had an issue about your workplace and bosses- ? eg -They ( your bosses) werent Far Right Wing enough for you, and you wanted even more RightWingness, otherwise you would give up your position as conceirge for Syd. Unis Young Liberals Club ?
Your right to protest should be observed , TimB.

TimB says:

08:25am | 19/10/11

Chongy, that last paragraph wasn’t just bad English, it was just plain bad. It’s not much of an argument if you have to resort to outright ridiculousness like that.

As far as I know, the only incidents of actual sacking by way of Facebook, Twitter etc that I have heard of, have come about because the person in question has foolishly and publicly criticised their employer. I have yet to hear of an incident where someone has been sacked from their job simply for protesting (i.e no mitigating circumstances like taking unapproved leave).

If you have any examples though, I’d love for you to share.

Bottom line though, as far as I’m concerned, if you’re not doing anything wrong, and if you’re not *ashamed* of being part of the protest, you shouldn’t need to cover your face.

TChong says:

08:31am | 19/10/11

TimB
A big   ; )  was ommitted by me, at the end of my 8:50 reply.
Pardon my bad manners by being easily being distracted by a dog with a fluffy tail.
Simpsons “Fear of Flying,” 1994-( must give credit, where its due) !

AdamC says:

08:49am | 19/10/11

What Fran Smith said.

Actually, it is normally only a violent minority at these sorts of protests who cover their faces. Indeed, there have been many OWS protesters that have been more than happy to be interviewed in the press and photographed sans face-covering. They are probably less likely to start smashing stuff.

TimB says:

09:26am | 19/10/11

Apology accepted Chongy

Here, Puff!  Here, Puff!  Hee hee hee!

neo says:

09:58am | 19/10/11

Because their boss may be a right wing nutter who will fire them for their political views? Because the US government has been known to throw people into prisons without charging them for years?

Was that even a serious question?

Aitch B says:

11:39am | 19/10/11

@neo

No….. more likely because if their boss discovers that they are absent from work without fair reason or have pulled a sicke they’ll be fired.

Get a grip!

AdamC says:

11:53am | 19/10/11

I heard they are expanding the prison at Guantanamo Bay so they can hold the OWS protesters there without trial ...

neo says:

11:54am | 19/10/11

Yeah, or that Aitch. Reasonable excuse hehe.

Antikythera says:

06:12pm | 19/10/11

Love a good protest ! However, maybe they are hiding their faces because they do not have any answers ??

neo says:

11:07am | 19/10/11

And that is why the people in power are better equipped to deal with the issue. Address it now, make these people happy, before it gets violent. Or continue ignoring it and see where that path leads you.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

12:55pm | 19/10/11

neo - “Or continue ignoring it and see where that path leads you” - they’re camped out in melbourne and people are ignoring it - going about their lunchtime while they ARE AT WORK. Even had the lefty refugee protestors came past yelling and marching - still people ignored them and went about their lunchtime while they ARE AT WORK. Mountain meet molehill. It will all be over before their next dole payment comes through.

fml says:

10:14am | 19/10/11

I vote for this. :D

Trevor says:

07:43am | 19/10/11

I hope you’re not an investor Fran, because that would pretty hypocritical don’t you think?

Fran Smith says:

08:36am | 19/10/11

Trevor - Investors invest their hard-earned money and accept the risk involved. These oxygen stealing leftists give nothing yet want everything in return. BIG difference.

fairsfair says:

09:30am | 19/10/11

My favourite type of investor is the Storm financial investor.

They blindly went into a scheme that returned them super profits when it worked (they didn’t know when to stop) and now the administrators are selling of Kasimatis’ Townsville mansion and the Storm “victims” want the dosh.

Please - you fools made a bad investment decision, lived the high life for a really long time and now you want the world to pay you back your losses. P*ss off and wear your debts quietly like the rest of us have to do.

Tim says:

09:47am | 19/10/11

fairsfair,
any investor who goes into these high risk investments and then whinges that someone should give them their money back when they go belly up should be taken out and shot.

Same goes with people who mortgage themselves to the eyeballs then whinge that the government should “do something” when interest rates go up 0.25%.

Funny that you never hear these people complain when their house/investment makes 20% in a year.

fairsfair says:

10:09am | 19/10/11

Totally agree Tim. My parents neighbours “lost it all” in Storm. They bought their house on 2002 for $300k and recently sold it for $850k.

After it all happened, the husband said straight up that they were greedy and the wife turned on the tears about the owners being “animals” one day at the house. She wasn’t too impressed with me when I asked them if they enjoyed their recent 5Star African Safari with Emmanul and his wife, the white Christmas they had in Norway “for the kids”, the new car they had recently purchased through their “safety net” and the $7000 (not exaggerating) a month their received in “returns” allowing the husband to follow the V8 Supercar series all around the world with five or six of his mates.

Woe is them. The thing I don’t get is that they got a second opinion from a financial planner and they still went ahead with it. Why - because it was fantastic when it worked. Literally until the day it fell, they had been talking it up. It was almost like a cult and they were desperate to get my parents involved. Thankfully dad’s bullshitometer went off the charts and he took note.

Sorry, I’m babbling I know, but it really sticks in my craw that these people then pushed the class action against the banks and are still crying about their own stupid decisions. Man up and deal.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

10:38am | 19/10/11

Trevor - I hope you don’t earn interest on a bank account or your superannuation, because that would be pretty hypocritical don’t you think?

neo says:

11:11am | 19/10/11

“What do we want?”
“Public money to pay off our super debts”
“When do we want it?”
“Every year or so”

If the banks can do it, why can’t the students?

And to open your eyes a little, no one is asking for anyone’s hard earned money. People are asking for the effortlessly earned money.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

11:32am | 19/10/11

Neo - most of the banks have paid back the bailout money -

Tim says:

11:44am | 19/10/11

“People are asking for the effortlessly earned money.”

please define this “effortlessly” earned money and how I can get my hands on some of it.

neo says:

11:58am | 19/10/11

Oh, well, in that case, all is forgiven. Time to entice more people into debt.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

12:41pm | 19/10/11

No neo - you’ve failed to see the reasoning behind my comment

You said “if the banks can do it, why can’t the students?”

I’m saying the banks paid the bailout back. If you give students the same money under the same scheme then they should also have to eventually pay it back. Why should students get money for nothing when the banks didn’t.

I didn’t say anything about blame and forgiveness. Stop trying to deflect the argument onto other topics.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

12:45pm | 19/10/11

And neo - you don’t think that people themselves are responsible when they get into too much debt? They only have themselves to blame.

Trevor says:

01:05pm | 19/10/11

MadKat,

“Trevor - I hope you don’t earn interest on a bank account or your superannuation, because that would be pretty hypocritical don’t you think?”

I don’t have a choice in that, unlike Fran’s original assertion that “Someone else to work so that I can leach off them”.

Also, no-one is working from whom I am leaching. That’s the magic of fractional reserve banking. I thought you would understand that with a Masters in Economics?

MadKat of Melbourne says:

01:57pm | 19/10/11

Ahh Trevor - wrong again - you can always move your super monies to cash and get no distributions and no capitalisation. That should minimise the guilt you feel at being an investor.

Fractional reserve banking - the basis of the banking system - so what. The bank is only working as a financial intermediarie - taking your money and loaning it onto someone else to earn a profit. Not only are you earning a profit off someone else, but you’re also creating credit and contributing to someone else’s debt. This system requires people to be working - its all a big bad part of capitalism.

I think you’re talking about full reserve banking where no money is allowed to be lent out by the bank and thus no credit created.

Maybe you should move your money to an Islamic bank. They’re not allowed to earn interest.

Still jealous that I have a Masters in Economics and know what I’m talking about Trevor - you little jealous one **squeezing cheeks** -

Jed says:

02:19pm | 19/10/11

Trevor mate. u sound like an idiot. I’d look into fractional reserve banking if I were u. The banks only keep a fractional reserve because they loan out the rest to get people into debt. You make your bank interest off this debt. People are working to pay back this debt with interest which u make your profit off.

neo says:

02:25pm | 19/10/11

MadKat,

It would be our fault, because as intelligent, educated people, we should have known better. But is it the local plumber’s fault? The guy may not be able to multiply by more than 2 and a “great loan at only $300 a week” is probably all he got out of the whole conversation with his broker. Is it his fault? Sometimes. Does that make it ok to entice him into something that he may not be able to afford? Hmm.

Maybe the people are to blame, maybe the banks are to blame for selling debt so rigorously, does it really matter? Fact is there are a lot of angry people out there and nothing is being done about it.

And just a side note, I’m not advocating giving any money to these students, they are well off enough. There are others who actually need the money.

John says:

03:00pm | 19/10/11

Western Finance is giant swindle. Just look at the US the, international fiat printing press. The US basically prints money out of thin air and lends it all over the world for people to purchase iPods, Cars and Homes.

They then expect the world to pay it back with interest. This cause’s massive inflation to the nations that take money. Then you have these US international Banking cartel lending huge amounts of money to US and getting it into huge debt. House prices increase at insane rates, as any top dick and harry can go to mortgager brokers, get a loan of 500,000 from International banking cartel who creates the money from thin air. So basically you have worthless paper buying property all over the world. It’s like the international bankers own the world, and give you permits, ‘fiat’ money to purchase any of their goods.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

03:21pm | 19/10/11

Please John - you’ve been watching too much Zeitgeist nonsense -

MadKat of Melbourne says:

03:39pm | 19/10/11

neo “Maybe the people are to blame, maybe the banks are to blame for selling debt so rigorously, does it really matter? Fact is there are a lot of angry people out there and nothing is being done about it” - yes, misdirected blame matters. Angry people - its sounds like most of the protestors are angry because they have wants but don’t want to have to work to satisfy them. If a person is truly is need then I’m all for helping them, I’m all for the banking regulations here in Australia that prevented the same type of corruption in the US, but I’m not for giving people money just because they want it. I’ve been down to see the protest in Melbourne and these people are mostly young, look like hippies and able to work but obviously choose not to. They are not advocates for people who are actually in need. People have a right to protest but I also have a right not to listen. When the homeless protest on mass I’ll go and protest alongside them - at least they are actually in need.

“I’m not advocating giving any money to these students, they are well off enough. There are others who actually need the money” - yes neo there are people who need the money but they’re not the ones getting heard are they. They’re being drowned out by people who really have no idea about the issues and don’t put forward any remedies. I haven’t heard any sensible arguments coming from these protestors yet. And don’t mention the truck protest because I had some choice words to say about them too with their ridiculous suggestion for the gg to terminate the government.

Trevor says:

04:44pm | 19/10/11

@MadKat
You need to take comprehension tests as you have demonstrated my original post perfectly.

I understand fractional reserve banking. The original point to which I was alluding was that people gaining ‘unearned’ money through this system as the same as those protesting who you somehow believe are asking for free money.

I wouldn’t want a Masters in Economics, they aren’t worth squat. Especially with the end of growth epoch we are currently in. Unless you sum up you life achievements in dollars.

Good luck with your ambition to join Transparency International. I’m sure they are looking for nice staunch right wingers like yourself willing to give the totally corrupt and opaque US financial system a big massive A+++.

@Jed

Once again, thank you for illustrating my original post.

Western civilisation is crumbling around us and pissant right wingers want to stuff around at the margins by tightening the social safety net that has kept us out of the dark ages. You need to think outside of the box people, not in it.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

06:15pm | 19/10/11

Trevor - you are a joke - under a fractional reserve system the interest you earn is in exchange for people being able to use your funds which they wouldn’t have otherwise - you could even call the interest rent instead. The money is then used by people to do things like buy houses to live in, open businesses to employ people. It’s perfectly justified and isn’t money earned for nothing. And at least it isn’t taxpayers money which is what you would have to pay your beloved lazy students for doing nothing.

Nothing is crumbling around you - delusional crap - the system will go on just like normal which will drive you crazy. Believe your own crap but its not reality. A Masters in Economics can be used under any economic system - its not reliant on a growth economy and my life isn’t measured in $$ - its measured on the research and ideas I can contribute with the knowledge I have. What are you contributing to anything Trevor?

By the way Transparency International is a left wing group who monitor corruption in the world and isn’t run by the US government and don’t work for the US economy. Get your facts straight and look on their website you totally ignorant idiot. Funny how little people like you criticise other people who actually want to physically go out into the world to make it a better place - probably because you’re so half-ass you wouldn’t be able to do it yourself - you can only sit and criticise.

You still haven’t answered my question - put your money where you mouth is - move all you super to cash and open an Islamic bank account. Don’t earn interest so you can live in your little communist utopia. Until you actually act on what you’re saying then your opinion is worth nothing.

And do us all a favour and goo and live in North Korea if this is how you want your world to work. You talk about dark ages - what were communist regimes like Russia, China, Cuba - beacons of shining bloody light??

Trevor says:

03:41pm | 20/10/11

MadKat

Just because I call for a stop to the attack on the social welfare system you think I want to move to somewhere like Russia, China or Cuba? Wow, that’s a leap. I think you’ve swallowed the reds-under-the-beds Kool-Aid once too many times.

MadKat if I could I would withdraw all of my super and blow it on coke and hookers. As you know, I don’t hold much hope if this wobbling top we call modernity lasting too much longer and I don’t expect any super to be left for anyone. Once the global financial endgame plays out and the global economy disappears up its own arsehole of debt, or is hyperinflated away to nothing (More likely), its year zero. I have next to no liquidity trying to raise a young family with a mortgage. I have had the same single bank account for about 12 years now to demonstrate my interest in shopping around ‘to get the best returns’.  I do not possess a credit card or own any shares, companies or other investments (unless you include my beloved ’76 VW Campervan). So I suppose you could say that am ‘putting my money where my mouth is’. 

Your assertion:

“Don’t earn interest so you can live in your little communist utopia.”

Shows you up for the little money wrangler you are or aspire to be. Utopias can only be achieved where there is interest to be made? And you have a go at me below for deriding investors looking for unearned riches! Hypocrite much?

“Believe your own crap but it’s not reality.”

It’s not my own crap I’m afraid. You right-wingers are rapidly being painted into a corner and more and more experts are pointing out fundamental differences with today’s conditions to downturns of the past. I invite you to read the following:

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-10-19/energy-trap-0

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-10-17/review-lieutenant-colonel-fleming’s-us-army-war-college-thesis-peak-oil

http://www.postcarbon.org/article/178709-the-end-of-growth

http://www.postcarbon.org/article/254838-earth-s-limits-why-growth-won-t-return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome

With the advent of Peak Oil, fiat currencies are doomed to fail. There has never been a fiat currency in the history of the world that has survived with the average inception/destruction cycle lasting about 40 years. Remind me when Nixon moved away from Bretton Woods MadKat?

The rosy flat world described by Adam Smith and Milton Freidman does not exist. It was merely obfuscated by the industrial revolution for a few centuries. When it comes to energy, the real driver of the economy, it will always end up being a zero-sum game. The Club of Rome envisioned this in the 70s and was ignored. We can all feel ‘something’ is wrong, yet when the truth is told, few can deal with the cold reality and respond with criticism, condescension and braggatry.

Next post….

Trevor says:

03:44pm | 20/10/11

“Funny how little people like you criticise other people who actually want to physically go out into the world to make it a better place - probably because you’re so half-ass you wouldn’t be able to do it yourself - you can only sit and criticise.”

Funny how people like you think that they know how others work or spend their time by what they post on the internet. FYI, I currently work for the Government in an upper management role developing and implementing housing programs for the poor, disadvantaged and disabled. I have served 5 years in the Army in a combat corp. I’d love to see you haul your fat arse for a 15km forced march with 30kgs of equipment let alone in a shitfight. I worked in China in a frickin orphanage if that tickles your fancy. So don’t accuse me of being ‘half-arsed’, I’m actually in the world making a difference and not working a receptionist job dreaming of reporting to the international bureaucracy about ‘perceptions of corruption’ that exist in third world countries meanwhile spewing whatever verbal diarrhea pops into my head onto the internet.

You see, I have degrees in International Relations and Chinese, so I know all about Transparency International. I see that their website shows the nice ‘lefty’ organisation committed to the betterment of the world through accountable government, however I can tell you in the real world money and power exchange hands all the times for favourable reports and are actually entrenched in free trade agreements etc. I’m afraid it’s you who is the “totally ignorant idiot”. Get you head out of the textbooks.

So you want a purely ontological reason to listen to the protestors and maybe acknowledge their grievances? How about this: If you don’t, history shows that a critical point will be reached and they will take up arms and cause all sorts of havoc. They might even take your beloved stuff.

LC says:

08:39am | 19/10/11

I’m sure there’s people there with geunine concerns which should be looked into, and those who have ended up in a poor financial position because of mere bad luck, like a car accident victim losing his job and being unable to pay his medical bills (understandable, the US’s healthcare system is a joke). But for each one of them, there are three people who are in that position because of their own poor/risky life choices (like spending big $$$ on a arts-type uni degree and then wondering why there’s no jobs, or having a child before they have adequate means to support tyhem, then wondering why they’re broke), and one who merely wants a free handout.

Life isn’t meant to be fair. Life isn’t meant to be easy. What you’ll get out of life scales directly to the amount of effort you put into it. Sorry. There are countries that have attempted to make things “fair”. Quite a few. It generally results in mass graves, mass human suffering and economic collapse because the heavy handed approach required to make things even come close to “fair” is not economically sustainable. One of these nations, Cuba, is hastily adopting free-market policies in order to save it’s economic hide for this very reason.
But hey, if this is really what these people want, there’s a few other countries practicing this sort of crap out there to move to. A word of warning though: In a free (for now) country, you have the freedom to leave, permanently or temporarily at any time, but if you go there and find you don’t like it, you may not have the freedom to come back.

And have you seen their list of demands? They are economic illiterates. If they won’t go away until they are met, then they’ll be there for a long, long time.

LC says:

08:53am | 19/10/11

Furthermore, I find it highly ironic that they protest against corporations and capitalism, yet have no qualms about using the facilities of McDonalds, one of the best symbols of all they hate: A multi-national corporation which brings in tens-hundreds of billions of dollars per year.

TimB says:

09:06am | 19/10/11

Maccas should lock their bathroom. Reserve it for customer use only.

That’d put those hippies in a real bind

AdamC says:

09:14am | 19/10/11

Trevor, your comment made me smile. Don’t get me wrong, it is mind-numbingly ridiculous and laced with all the meaningless slogans du jour, but I think a real crazy lefty is an addition to the Punch. It’s like, where would uni campuses be without nutty pamphlets all over the place and superannuated trots lecturing passers by about the evils of capitalism? Diversity is good.

neo says:

02:30pm | 19/10/11

One step at a time, folks. The system is toxic, inflation has finally hit levels where common people understand this. The dream of controlling people with pieces of paper is all but at an end. Can you smell the freedom? Are you scared of it? You should be.

LC says:

03:11pm | 19/10/11

WTF are you talking about?

neo says:

03:32pm | 19/10/11

Just a bit of prose to dramatise the colossal storm that may soon envelop the world.

I used to think the modern times are a bore to live in, but I may yet be proven wrong

Are you watching closely?

LC says:

03:56pm | 19/10/11

Hate to break it to you Neo, you sound so excited :(
But if I don’t, someone less civil will, so here it goes:

- Inflation is nothing new
- Economic downturns are nothing new
- Protests are nothing new
- Protests demanding some form of quasi-socialism/quasi-communism are nothing new, and such systems are avoided for good reason.
- Socialist/communist movements here are nothing new, and haven’t amounted to much.

Not much is going to come from this, apart from making the participants feel good.

You’re exaggerating. A lot.

Personally, I think the whole thing has more to do with the fall of the US as an economic powerhouse. It explains why the protests are still going strong there, while the protests seemed to fizzle and die here.

Shane From Melbourne says:

04:41pm | 19/10/11

@LC- Actually neo is correct but not in the way he thinks. You won’t smelling freedom and prosperity any time soon. The fact is that the global petroleum based economy is slowly dying. Too much demand for oil and economies tank with in built inflation. Also there is the fact that West can’t compete in labor intensive industries needed to soak up unemployed and thus relieve the state burden on welfare. The fact that Western corporations collude in this process, the importation of products without adding value to the product will accelerate Western decline and contribute to ultimate power shifts within the international system. The surprise is not that there are protests, but that there hasn’t been full scale riots within the US. Currently internal security and memetic control by the United States is strong, but It will be interesting see what effect demobilization has upon the system when thousands of unemployed veterans flood the system when the United States ultimately winds down its unsustainable wars and military budget. Also at some point in time the United States will have to default upon its debt (there is no way that they could ever pay off this debt) and its political system and legitimacy will collapse.

Trevor says:

05:16pm | 19/10/11

@LC, that’s a load of right wing bullshit propaganda you a pushing there mate, although I acknowledge the caveats you have inserted re the broken user-pays healthcare system in the US. Let me break it down for you:

“like spending big $$$ on a arts-type uni degree and then wondering why there’s no jobs”

Back in the day when society actually functioned properly and fairly, arts students could always find a job. They are the one who develop the critical thinking and broad understanding of how civilisations operate and could link the various silos such as economics, law and medicine etc to shape a functioning society. Shit like Medicine, Law and Architecture are nothing but skills learnt by rote, and really should be taught in TAFEs rather than university. So your sentence actually addresses the problem with todays compartmentalised world in an arse-about way.

“…and one[s] who merely wants a free handout”

Nobody wants a free handout mate. They just want to live in a fair and just society where those who have gone before do not kick the economic ladder out after they have climbed the economic/social pole.

“Life isn’t meant to be fair.”

Ahh, the old right-wing catch-phrase that abrogates them for all social responsibility and justifies individuals like Bill Gates to accumulate enough wealth for 10,000 lifetimes and still complain about ‘intellectual property rights’. Well, I think Immanual Kant, Rousseau and others would disagree with you there. They have written many weighty tomes about ‘natural justice’.

“Life isn’t meant to be easy.”

Maybe you have a point there. Maybe you don’t. Remember back a couple of decades when it was projected that ‘in the future’ human would hardly have to work at all, with most functions being done by automaton? Well that time has come and gone my friend. The capitalist system that we have created demands more and more ‘growth’, creating bubbles and un-necessary industries. Heard of planned obsolescence, the fashion industry, the millions of factories throughout China, India and elsewhere pumping out needless plastic crap? All edifices to the bubble economy that has evolved as there are no really new technological ideas to promote ‘growth’. So yes, life wasn’t meant to be easy, however as humans we had the chance to make it so, however our greed and avarice put that dream to bed. 
“There are countries that have attempted to make things “fair”. Quite a few. It generally results in mass graves, mass human suffering and economic collapse because the heavy handed approach required to make things even come close to “fair” is not economically sustainable.”

The countries to which you refer got that way as a result of paranoid totalitarianism, not economics. In fact, you live in a country that has done a fairly good job of making things ‘fair’. It’s called the welfare state and is a mixture of socialist policies to address social issues and capitalism to fund it. These countries have provided humans with possibly the highest sustainable standard of living across the board in human history. So you are dead wrong on that one.

“And have you seen their list of demands? They are economic illiterates. If they won’t go away until they are met, then they’ll be there for a long, long time.”

Ha! Coming from a right winger who presumable supported the bank bailouts and the neo-liberal agenda that precipitated the GFC, I’d be very careful of who I called an economic illiterate.

“Furthermore, I find it highly ironic that they protest against corporations and capitalism, yet have no qualms about using the facilities of McDonalds, one of the best symbols of all they hate: A multi-national corporation which brings in tens-hundreds of billions of dollars per year.”

Icing on the cake. You are a mis-informed idiot.

@Adam

I’d love to watch that condescending smirk slowly fade from your face over that next few years as it slowly dawns on you that economic ‘business-as-usual’ is not returning and all your retirement funds are sucked into the black hole that is global debt. You’ll be thinking “Oh yeah, I remember that Trevor bloke calling for radical change and I dismissed him as a ‘crazy leftie’. Maybe he did have a point worth investigating rather than just lazily and smugly dismissing him without any real argument.”

Or maybe events will overtake you so suddenly that you’ll find you head under the guillotine thinking “Trev, I’m sorry. Please help me buddy!” But of course I’ll be long gone- to the doomstead.

neo says:

06:12pm | 19/10/11

- Inflation is nothing new

Yes, you can’t quite buy a keep with a moat and some land for a sack of gold any more. The question is whether it can go on indefinitely. We may see.

- Economic downturns are nothing new

Of course not, but with the current global economy, we can safely say that each one is more complex than ever before.

- Protests are nothing new

They are not indeed, we have all seen what some protests can lead to.

- Protests demanding some form of quasi-socialism/quasi-communism are nothing new, and such systems are avoided for good reason.

Nothing new, the things that are new are our means of instant communication and other technologies. Our increased feeling of “globalhood” and lack of fear of governments. The Gen Y savviness and education. The countless examples from the past, well documented and studied. And of course, the fact that this seems to be going on world wide.

- Socialist/communist movements here are nothing new, and haven’t amounted to much.

I wouldn’t really say there’s a very strong socialist movement here, we have seen a lot less than the other countries have.

I dunno, we will see, it will be interesting.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

06:22pm | 19/10/11

Trevor - did I read that right - you think medicine is a shit course and should be taught at TAFE and arts degrees are the only things that should be taught in university - you are kidding me!! You are totally stuffed in the head.

MadKat of Melbourne says:

06:34pm | 19/10/11

neo - “One step at a time, folks. The system is toxic, inflation has finally hit levels where common people understand this” - inflation has been much higher - its nothing to get excited about at the levels it is at now - look at some of the South America countries that had massively, massive inflation - that was when they were communist - it was fixed and they’ll all happy little capitalists now -

What - you think this is the only GFC the world has ever gone through -

Trevor says:

09:10pm | 19/10/11

Sorry MadKat, but no. You didn’t read that right at all.

When I said ‘shit’ I meant it in the collective. As in ‘shit like the Mining Super Profit Tax is tops!’ See what I did there? I see how you got the wrong idea though- when I’m ‘talking’ with economic anarchists and simpletons I do tend to flourish my language somewhat.

What I mean is that when learning something like medicine and the law, it is actually more about retaining large amounts of information rather than critical thinking. Sure there may be some, but so does a mechanic trying to work out what’s stopping a car from starting. Just at a much higher level. Like a trade. Hence my belief that they are more aligned with technical colleges.

I don’t think that TAFEs are any more or less important to society, although I am aware of the more important status of uni due to society’s current infatuation with ‘intelligence’(Note the quotation marks). For you to imply that it is an insult shows your own arrogant prejudices I’m afraid.

LC says:

08:37am | 20/10/11

@ Trevor,

Welfare, social security, public healthcare and the like? Sure, provided there are checks and balances are in place that prevents people freeloading off or exploiting the system. For example, look at Howard’s baby bonus. $3000 cold hard cash, paid for with the intent it will help support the child. Problem: Once the money is in the hands of the parents, the government and by extension, the taxpayers (you and me and most of the Australian public), cannot ensure the money does what it was given to do. What’s to stop the parent having a baby, grabbing the money, and spending it on drugs, smokes, grog, pokies or that “needless plastic crap” you talk about? Solution: Have it come in the form of a debit card, which can only be used to purchase things needed to look after a baby: Prams, Cots, baby food, bottles, pacifiers etc. Done. Easy. Something is also going to have to be done about people who are capable of working, but live their life sponging off benefits instead. Maybe the solution for that is demanding if people fit to join the workforce provide evidence they are actively looking for a job if they want benefits for longer than 12 months. The other big one is middle-class welfare. Obviously, it has to be cut off, but this has to be done slowly so these people can acclimatize. If I can live on $95k/year, be able to put food on the table, pay the bills, keep a roof over my head and am still able to indulge every now and then without government benefits, I’m pretty sure you can find some way to manage too. Not spending outside of your means is the key. And let’s face it, if more people did that, the GFC would not have occurred.
The biggest issue with welfare is that you risk stopping people striving to be better, because if they can feed/shelter themselves with just the government handout, why bother taking risks and trying to make a success of yourself? It’s the same mentality that domesticated animals have. They’re not there because they love you, they’re there because of the food/water supplies, a secure place to sleep and the occasional pat to make them feel good. Why take the risk and rock the boat by going out into the wild and fend for themselves? All you’ll ever need is right there for you. Same applies here. For example, there are reports of people getting 150k/year+middle class income refusing pay rises because if they earn more than $150k, they are not eligible for welfare and may end up in a worse financial position than they were before the pay rise. If they weren’t dependent on welfare, they would be more likely to take the promotion/pay rise. Is that a bad thing?

What you believe is “needless plastic crap” is something that has filled a demand. People want to buy it, people find a use for them, and as a result, it creates jobs, wherever in the world, and stimulates the economy. Problem? I think not.

“Shit” like medicine and law are two very important areas which are required to keep society as we know it running. And should be taught in university. The Bachelor of Arts is only a entry step for people to move into other areas with, always has been, always will be. People who go into areas such as acting have to face the fact that there is not going to be constant work available for them and adjust to suit.

As for cretins like Stalin, Chavez etc. They attempted to create societies where everyone is equal, where they took control of everything to ensure that no-one would be left behind, which form the basis of socialism/communism.There’s even quotes of Chavez decrying capitalism. They tried to make their countries fair, but in the end the result was far from it.
At the end of the day, as far as I’m concerned, there is no difference between a hardline socialist, a communist and a fascist. If there were two countires left in the world, one was hard-line capitalist, the other was hard-line socialist, I’d choose the former in a heartbeat. You?

And I only support the bank bailouts because the alternative would be foreclosing on mortgages and loans and throwing people out onto the street. But the shocker here is, I also think the banks should be made to pay back the US government when they are on top of things once more.

Oh, and here’s OWS’ list of demands. Published with a link by sDog (the mods won’t let me publish actual link for some reason):
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/goddamned_hippies/P20/
Economic illiterates? I’ll let you decide.

Much thanks for assuming you know everything about these things, and me, though. Guess I didn’t quite live up to your idea of a right-wing “everyone for themselves” ignoramus did I?

Trevor says:

01:21am | 21/10/11

@LC

You link me to a far-right hate site title “Goddamned Hippies” and think you’ve proven me wrong-case closed? Delusional. You sir have far exceeded my idea of right-wing “everyone for themselves” ignoramus. Well done.

I’ll make one point though. You rail against mothers spending their baby bonus money on crap rather than for their babies and then call it a failure of policy.  The policy intention was to increase Australia’s birthrate, not to ensure that the little darlings have enough to eat. So if the $3000 is attracting women to have to have babies for the money, well then it’s done its job. Who gives a shit what the money is spent on? That was Costello’s plan spurred on by big business looking for eager customers and willing workers. I personally think Australia’s population should be about 7 million, tops.

LC says:

09:46am | 21/10/11

I gave you that link because ThePunch will not let me publish the direct link to the site with the demands. WHICH YOU WOULD KNOW IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE POST, rather than taking one look at the link and brushing it off.

I have attempted to post the actual link three time, all three posts were not published.

Here’s your second chance: Re-read that post, look at my points on welfare and open up that link, then look for a post by sDog and open his link. Viola! There OWS’ demands. Then tell me if their list of demands are economically viable or not, and a sentence or three on why. I wish you luck.

And before I wrap it up here, the money was given by Howard was definitely intended to get more people to have babies, by helping provide money to look after the child. But a fair few of the people just took the money and spent it on anything BUT the child. One of the top reasons why people choose to not have children is the expense involved (maybe it wouldn’t be so expensive if parents wouldn’t buy them the latest electronic stuff the moment they ask and make them earn it themselves when they reach the appropriate age, but that’s an issue for another blog).

Elphaba says:

08:29am | 19/10/11

I love Vegemite, but I’m not trying these.

Maybe Smiths needs to put people’s names on the packets, then they’d sell like crazy…

Aitch B says:

08:56am | 19/10/11

@TimB

I tried a small packet last weekend. Not too bad - I’ll buy another packet this weekend to confirm my initial thoughts or otherwise.

The biggest problem I had was deciding what to drink with them. I tried beer, CC and dry and cider. CC and dry came out the best. but it wasn’t a great combination. I think I might try something non-alcoholic next weekend - maybe Waterfords lemon lime and bitters.

nossy says:

08:59am | 19/10/11

@AdamC yes amazing scenes Adam - poor little bugger looks like he needs a good meal. He seemed pretty overwhelmed by the media focusing on him - I presume he no longer has to present himself for military duty?

Shane* says:

09:39am | 19/10/11

So it was low of me to “accuse” you of being Jewish?
a) I assumed. I asked. I didn’t accuse.
b) Your defensive “how low can people go” comment suggests there’s something wrong with being Jewish, which there isn’t.
c) I made the assumption because you continually used loaded phrases, similar to those employed by the Israeli media. Terrorist. Kidnapped. Hostage. Killers. I pointed out that all those words could equally be applied to both sides of the conflict.

Mark G says:

09:39am | 19/10/11

AdamC,

” the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, many of them killer terrorists”

How do you get the second statement from the release of Palestinian prisoners? How do you know who they released? Most of the ones released would have been nothing more than low level fighters captured during Israeli raids into the Palestinian territories. I assure you that Israel would not release anyone of any real importance. They are more hard line than America on these issues.

AdamC says:

10:03am | 19/10/11

@Nossy, ha, I hope they waive the rest of his tour of duty! And is it stereotypical of me to visualise him tucking into some hummus and felafel?

@Shane*, oh please. When people are talking about Northern Ireland, do you ask them if they Catholic? For that matter, in Shane* land, can ethnic Chinese talk about Tibet, or Hindus about Kashmir, Russian Orthodox about Chechnya, etc? Or do you only single out Jews? (To paraphrase your earlier remarks, I think I will ‘go out on a limb’ and ‘assume’ you do.)

@Mark G, you are wrong. Israel has indeed released killer terrorists as part of this swap. Relatives of the victims of some of the Palestinians being released actually sought to delay the swap for this reason. I don’t dispute that many of those released would not have been the ‘Mr Bigs’ of the Jihad. That isn’t to say they aren’t still very dangerous, of course.

SimonFromLakemba says:

10:27am | 19/10/11

Apprently 80% of israelis support the swap, the irony though is Netanyahu is against caving into terrorism and then goes and does this

Israel has its own problems with its extreme right, mainly the hasidic.

Problem I see for Israel is they have made heros of the prisoners that have been released.

Too bad they still hold 7000 prisoners, and have had upto 500 child prisoners detained.

Shane* says:

10:48am | 19/10/11

@Adam C,

Your language yesterday (and today) is not the language of someone who is objectively viewing the facts. Hence my assumption. And yes, if I read someone using politcally-loaded phrases to describe Chinese dominion over Tibet, I would assume they’re Chinese and less objective than I am.

The fact remains that your language betrays a less-than-objective approach to the issue. From what I’ve read some of the ‘prisoners/hostages’ who have been ‘released/swapped’ are far from ‘terrorists/freedom fighters/’ but are low-level thugs or underage rock throwers.

I recommend you exercise your ability to read between the lines of reports based on IDF media releases. This swap is not black and white ‘good guy for bad guys.’ It is far more complex than that. Fault lies with both sides of the conflict, but language is being used cleverly to frame the issue differently.

And, as always, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

AdamC says:

11:43am | 19/10/11

Shane*, I dispute that you are any more objective than me. (Quite the contrary.) I also don’t agree that my language is ‘politically-loaded’. I simply don’t use idiotic euphemisms. Put simply, people who blow up innocent women and chidren are terrorists. Liewise, snatching people and holding them hosage is abducting them. That is what it is. You seem to think everyone who doesn’t use the cowardly language of excuse and moral equivalence is not ‘objective’ - maybe they are even Jewish! That is not the case.

I use the same, plan English language when describing the Irgun and the Deir Yassin massacre, for example. I openly admit I have more sympathy for the Jewish terrorists of the thirties and forties than for the Hamas and Hizbullah killers of today. That doesn’t mean I can’t be critical of their methods.

“And, as always, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. “

That is a perfect example of some of bland, mindless language so often deployed in relation to this conflict. Hamas operatives are not ‘freedom fighters’ - they are fighting for an oppressive tyranny. Hamas is also not an indepdence movement (‘freedom’ sometimes being used in the context of pursuing national independence) so their fighters don’t qualify on that basis.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That is no secret to Hamas. If it is a secret to you, maybe you need to revisit some of those IDF press releases you seem so fixated on.

Shane* says:

12:33pm | 19/10/11

It’s funny you choose to describe Hamas like that. I could just as easily describe them as the political party who won majority control of the Palestinean Parliament in 2006. In the past they have committed some terrible terrible acts, as have the IDF. Hamas have also have removed all reference to the desctruction of Israel from their charter (a fact I’m sure you were aware of). They engage Israel militarily in a continuous loop, depending on who fires first.

Have they fired rockets indiscriminently into Israel? Yes. Do they feel they have any other option against the might of the Israeli army, heavily funded and supplied by the US, who continue to defy international law? No.

I also highly recommend you do a little reading on the civilian death toll on both sides. It makes “God’schosen people” seem anything but Godly.

AdamC says:

03:39pm | 19/10/11

Oh dear, Shane*, it seems you are reverting to type. Still, I did call you out as an anti-semitic idiot/troll yesterday, so it is to be expected.

Given that, I am sure I won’t convince you to see the fanatical killers of Hamas (who have been just as nasty to their Palestinian rivals as to Israeli civilians) in anything but the most complimentary light. For example, you pointed out that they gained power via an election in 2006, while ignoring the fact they retain power because of a violent purge.

As it happens, as you point out, there are some signs that Hamas is starting to see reason. While the rocker attacks haven’t stopped, they have slowed, for example, and then there is Shalit’s belated release. Still, I am not so naive as to believe Hamas’ change of heart is anything but a tactical retreat.

neo says:

03:46pm | 19/10/11

Israel would not release anyone they consider too dangerous.

Shane* says:

04:09pm | 19/10/11

@AdamC, point out one thing I’ve written that’s anti-semetic.

I’m not an anti-semite. I think of myself as someone who has absorbed the facts and has come to the conclusion that Israel (not Jews… Israel… important distinction, wouldn’t you say?) is far from blameless in this whole mess, and that words like ‘terrorist’ are used cleverly to demonise people the Israeli government have provoked into violence.

I admit I’m surprised by the fact that you’re not Jewish though. Your vitriolic aggression towards a people forcibly displaced of their land is normally only found in people who believe (incorrectly) that they have a God-given and/or historical right to be there.

fml says:

04:46pm | 19/10/11

Dont take it to heart shane, if you say that both sides are to blame AdamC automatically labels you a hamas apologist! and finds your views “amusing”.

Durka, durka, jihad, jihad, etc, etc.

AdamC says:

09:03pm | 19/10/11

Your comments about ‘God’s chosen people’ is classic anti-semitism, Shane*, as if you needed me to tell you. (Though I note your recent, cowardly, retreat that your concern is only with ‘Israelis’, rather than the bulk of the ‘chosen people’.) It sounds like you are doing a bit of a classic backtrack.

Of course, as I have made abundantly clear, I don’t resile from criticising Israel. It is only the likes of you who lack the moral courage to criticise your favoured side of the conflict.

TimB says:

08:31am | 19/10/11

As long as The Punch stays free. That’s what really matters!

Direct says:

09:05am | 19/10/11

Proponents of paywalls are idiots. They don’t understand that users already pay. Punchers pay by their site visits, the content they provide in the comments and often times, by providing consistent personal details to link opinions and comments with names.

If you put up paywalls and thus cut off a massive portion of your audience, you had better hope that your initial content is good enough for people to actually part money with. From what I’ve seen from most online sources, the initial content is mostly effortlessly produced garbage.

nossy says:

09:41am | 19/10/11

@Direct - spot on fella!

SimonFromLakemba says:

10:29am | 19/10/11

WSJ does this, wonder how viable it is for them?

nossy says:

12:23pm | 19/10/11

@SimonFromLakemba yes the Financial Review have had it for some time Simon - Crikey too. Wonder why we all stopped reading those rags.

gobsmack says:

08:44am | 19/10/11

You are Eric Cartman.

fairsfair says:

09:00am | 19/10/11

There was even one in Cairns over the weekend Anubis. You gotta laugh… Cairns?... come on! Bahahahaha.

TimB says:

09:40am | 19/10/11

What were the Cairns mob protesting about Fairs? Baps?

Those bastards.

fairsfair says:

09:57am | 19/10/11

Who knows TimB? I would have had something to say about it if that was the case

They occupied City Place. No doubt they dispursed however because the pavers reach smelting temps in the early afternoon and the park people hit em up for some spare change. Plus, I am sure the coffee shops couldn’t keep up with the demand.

On a serious note however, I can see valid argument from both sides - this whole occupy movement has bit miffed. They have every right to do what they are doing, it just seems even more pointless than the convoy of no confidence or whatever the hell that thing was.

I am sort of of the opinion that if you have superannuation you are in that “1%”. I need the stock market to allow me to reture in 83 years.

SimonFromLakemba says:

10:31am | 19/10/11

Even though I support the premis that they are doing this under, the protesters have lost all credibility and can easily be picked off.

If you went upto them and asked some simple financial questions you would have them stumped.

Its my favourite thing to do to world vision ppl and their similiar kind

Seanr says:

11:53am | 19/10/11

really there was one in Cairns, fairsfair?? I guess they aren’t occupying City Place at present..unless they bought umbrellas. I must admit I saw last week that Townsville was having one so it’s nice to see that they didn’t get one up on us

ausspud says:

12:13pm | 19/10/11

Respect my authoratar!
And the occupy protest in sydney was such a flop,Id have more people over for a barbie. Whis is pretty bad concidering i have no friends :-(

fairsfair says:

12:27pm | 19/10/11

Yeah I saw it on Facebook Seanr - I don’t think it lasted too long. Today they would literally be flooded yes…

On the rain front, I’m going to admit this only because it is an anonymous forum, but yesterday when I went to get my aprichick ingredients I took shelter under a tree in the median strip and a bird/bat shat on me. I took it as a sign and made chicken wraps instead…

Townsville. Pfft. What have they got to complain about? They have a multi-industry economy and the people have jobs… oh wait… its Townsville.

ausspud says:

12:18pm | 19/10/11

@Nossy
So are they hiding their faces because they are ashamed to admit it

John says:

09:35am | 19/10/11

42 Million dead in Russia because of sick twisted ideology of Communism. These maggot worshiping (Darwinists), had no belief in GOD and slaughtered millions because they though life was struggle, between maggot and maggot. There cold and calculating methods lead to war criminals such Lenin, Stalin and Che. The entire polish intellectual society were all shot on the back of heads because the communist party declared, intellectuals as threat to the party. This got blamed on the Germans in WWII, because if the truth got out, it would complicate the World War II propaganda. It goes to show, that helping Poland from invasion was not the intent of WWII.

Khalid says:

10:39am | 19/10/11

You the same john who thinks the Americans flew those planes into the WTC?
If you’re not, you two should hook up.

John says:

02:38pm | 19/10/11

Americans? Remote control maybe. The event could of been outsourced to a foreign nation. They send their secret service to wire the buildings up without the telling the FBI, the CIA director most likely knew, and kept a lid on it. But i don’t think it was Americans with full American citizenship that did it.

RyaN says:

09:42am | 19/10/11

@Loxy: “This is breaking the law” what law, please post what law they are breaking please.

As for why people aren’t organ donors, perhaps you could get one of these people to tell us.
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Organ-donor-wakes-up-20080610
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f71_1195672709
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2745308/posts

Peter says:

09:52am | 19/10/11

I think a solid education campaign would help the cause.  You know, explaining the benefits etc. and the need.  I think that people are scared that they may be used for experiments etc.  Should make it clear that won’t happen.

fml says:

10:38am | 19/10/11

They can have my pickled liver!

Mark G says:

11:17am | 19/10/11

Do the same people who support the legalisation of marijuana also support and increase in funding in medical and mental health services that this legalisation would require. Yes people already use marijuana but only at a rate that is dictated by its illegality. If use of marijuana became common place in society the health issues would outstrip cigarettes and alcohol. Given the state of the American Medical system and the amount it costs for lower income families to access it, is this really a good idea? I find it hard to believe that more than 50% of Americans support this given that most Americans support moves against tobacco companies due to the health effects of cigarettes. Just because something has public support doesn’t mean that it is in the national interest. If you did a poll that asked “should the government give everyone $100 cash tomorrow?” you would find that the poll would probably show more than 50% support.

Knemon says:

11:46am | 19/10/11

@ Mark G - “If use of marijuana became common place in society the health issues would outstrip cigarettes and alcohol”

What have you based this statement on Mark G?

Figures coming out of The Netherlands don’t seem to support this.

Kallum says:

11:56am | 19/10/11

Yes Mark
It’s good to demonise and make criminals of people whose only crime is to smoke a joint in the privacy of their own home, but it’s OK to allow drunks who cause most of the domestic violence and anti-social behaviour in our society.
You are blissfully unaware of reality mate.

Dash says:

01:26pm | 19/10/11

Ha - hippie to the rescue of pot smoking greenies!

@Kallum - Using cannbis in Australia is illegal. If you use, sell or give it to others you can be given a jail sentence for it.

The use of cannabis has numerous effects including:

1. increased risk of getting bronchitis, lung cancer and other diseases of the respiratory system
2. decreased motivation
3.  decreased concentration, memory and ability to learn new things
4. decreased sex drive
5. depression
6. psychological effects

Sorry but it’s not a great thing to put into your body. And it’s not a substance to defend! Alcohol and cigarrettes are bad drugs too.  We should not be encouraging the abuse of any drug. All of them have negative impacts on society. At the moment Pot is illegal. People need to show some respect for the law.

It’s called dope for a reason.

Mark G says:

02:41pm | 19/10/11

Knemon,

“Figures coming out of The Netherlands don’t seem to support this.”

What figures? And don’t give me a link to a dodgy free marijuana site. I love how supporters of legalising marijuana conveniently gloss over the health effects or accuse doctors of making them up.

Kallum,
“but it’s OK to allow drunks who cause most of the domestic violence and anti-social behaviour in our society.”

I didn’t say that that was OK. In fact I agree its not. That’s why we need tougher laws governing the sale of alcohol. Your argument amounts to “well these other things have bad effects too so therefore we should legalise marijuana”. Why add to the social problems that you have identified by legalising Marijuana? If you feel so strongly about these issues, why would you want to add to the list of people being treated for the adverse effects of alcohol and tobacco?

Kipling says:

08:31am | 21/10/11

@ Dash,

Could you please cite the research done for your six points as to the effects of cannibis use?

Right up front I will say I think you will struggle to find any difinitive studies completed. As you point out, Cannibis use is illegal, therefore diffinitive research is also impossible to do.

Further to this, anecdotal studies done, particular in cultures that have incorporated Cannibis use do not reflect most of the points you claim as fact….

Just saying…

Dragon says:

11:04am | 19/10/11

Not to mention Aussie icon of the 80s - Jacko!!

RyaN says:

03:09pm | 19/10/11

@What A Croc: I’m not!

nossy says:

12:17pm | 19/10/11

@fairsfair - yes does look a little dampish up your way FF mmm hot steamy days coming up soon as well - humid weather - hope you have air con?
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR731.loop.shtml#skip

fairsfair says:

01:30pm | 19/10/11

Ah its pretty typical Nossy (if not a bit sooner than usual), and I am really enjoying it.

Bring on Summer I say - I’m ready for it!

I have aircon, but I don’t use it. I was brought up in a house where electricity wasn’t wasted - my dad is a lights nazi - so I have never regularly made it part of my lifestyle (same can not be said for my siblings). I’d much rather an open window and the fan. I have issues with fake climate control - when in cold climates too, I’d much rather don the tracky dacks, slippers and a couple of jumpers than turn on a heater.

Arts Student says:

02:45pm | 19/10/11

I’m not between projects I’m ‘occupying wall street.’

gobsmack says:

12:47pm | 19/10/11

Isn’t there high unemployment levels in the US?  Whose fault is that?

Dash says:

01:54pm | 19/10/11

No body’s fault! It’s the state of the economic cycle and the way their government is managing the situation.

Business does not drive down the economy! But they do employ people.

Their debt is catching up with them. Unlike our country which had responsible government who was prepared to pay off the ALP’s debt, they have continued to lift the ceiling! 

Greece has had a socialist lefty government in place for years. Take a look at the state of their economy and their unemployment rate. Are these lefties in the US marching for that???

John Smythe says:

02:31pm | 19/10/11

keep that entitlement mentality going gobsmack.

gobsmack says:

03:52pm | 19/10/11

@John Smythe
What entitlement mentality?
I’m simply pointing out that if there is high unemployment then it is hardly fair to tell people to get a job.
Some may be able to, but not everyone can.

John Smythe says:

04:27pm | 19/10/11

maybe I read it wrong then…yay to the printed word….but you know how it goes….

It’s not my fault. It’s not fair. I “deserve”.........

As you point out, there are a lot of people in this situation, but that doesn’t make it completely useless a situation.

nossy says:

12:34pm | 19/10/11

@ausspud - dont you upset my good friend Daniel ausspud - he is the “jewel in the crown” of the Punch team - the creme de la creme - and hes smart too.
P.S. Daniel buddy hows that judging going?  hahahaha

fairsfair says:

01:26pm | 19/10/11

I was watching that in the tea room with some others Knemon and we were all looking at each other slack jawed. WTF?

It was wierd. We all agreed with what he was saying (keeping in mind we all work in oil and gas) and it was just a strange strange sight.

Honestly says:

01:33pm | 19/10/11

And the silly lattee drinking skank who asked the 1st question…something about the truckies driving to Canberra and Alans comment about the Fed Police….not only did Alans answer make her to look like a fool on national television but she also had the gall to show up with a fools face on national television

gobsmack says:

02:02pm | 19/10/11

He’s an expert on methane gas emissions.

SimonFromLakemba says:

02:04pm | 19/10/11

haha yea saw that to, had to do a double take!

Dash says:

02:23pm | 19/10/11

@Fairs - you have a tea room with a tele???

fairsfair says:

02:37pm | 19/10/11

I do Dash. Its a wall mounted 50” LCD and it also has couches and an area to lay down…It used to always be on Dr Phil when I went in there, but thankfully someone put it on ABC24 and hid the remote. The buttons are on the top too, nobody can reach them.

Not quite Google HQ, but it is appreciated

Dash says:

03:15pm | 19/10/11

@Fairs I can see myself on the couch in front of the tele with a cold can of something better than XXXX come cricket test match season! No couches here except the ones in reception!

Do you have alcohol in the fridge and those cream filled Arnotts bickies for your tea and coffee? And you wanna go to the cops?

Tim says:

03:47pm | 19/10/11

What’s a lattee?

fairsfair says:

03:49pm | 19/10/11

Yep, we got the good bikkies and a proper coffee machine (currently not working, but will soon be returned). No alcohol though as the Texans are bad enough sober! Encourageable bunch.

Downside is - we have to have all office functions in the tea room because it is nicer than most restaurants Melbourne Cup Lunch - in the kitchen.

...and nothing is better than XXXX!

@gobsmack - sheer gold too champ. Thats one of the funniest one liners I have read in ages

Ben C says:

04:44pm | 19/10/11

Hold on Dash, isn’t Gillard supposed to be working for you anyway? As a matter of fact, isn’t she supposed to be working for the people? Why is she still in her job?

gobsmack says:

04:48pm | 19/10/11

Do they take into account the free meals and accommodation she gets?

John Smythe says:

03:07pm | 19/10/11

Vote +1

Erick says:

06:07pm | 19/10/11

@SCC - There are lots of big problems with the blog software used by News Ltd in Australia.

It’s made in-house, and it seems to be made not very well. There are frequent stupid error messages, comments are lost at random, formatting is haphazard, and so on.

I’ve been complaining about this low standard of software for at least three years, but most of my complaints have been censored, lost or ignored.

For some reason, News Ltd in Australia sticks with crappy software, instead of licensing a professional blogging package from one of the competent providers out there.

marley says:

07:56pm | 20/10/11

@Erick - it could be worse.  It could be The Drum.

Erick says:

04:52pm | 19/10/11

I don’t know who kidnapped the old nossy, or what they did to him. I hope it wasn’t too cruel.

But I have to admit I like the new nossy a lot more!

Shane From Melbourne says:

04:57pm | 19/10/11

Australian defence procurement is generally woeful. Unless the bureaucrats are spending on themselves. They manage to do that alright…..