I love it when Richard Dawkins comes to town. It’s like Christmas for people who don’t believe in Christmas.

Hooray, it's Christmas time for atheists. Picture: AP.

Even though he’s since departed our fair shores, Dawkins’ wake of influence still ripples like the aftermath of an intellectual tsunami, and if anything you have to give him credit for almost single-handedly putting religious debate back on the map.

The debate that follows Dawkins across the globe is largely confined to the mission of getting rid of this pesky notion of a creator once and for all, by using the atheist mantra “celebrate reason” to expose all who entertain the divine as delusional, idiotic disciples of fairies or flying spaghetti monsters or whatever convenient and patronising analogy fits best. Needless to say, there’s a lot of love in the room.

But who needs love when you have science? Love is irrational, fleeting, impossible to measure let alone stuff in a beaker. Science on the other hand is rational, quantitative, and definitive.

And in the eyes of the atheist, God deserves no free pass from enlightened scientific scrutiny. Hear bloody hear. But surely if the big guy isn’t getting handouts, neither should “religious nuts” nor “strident atheists”. The problem with the latter is, the more atheist you are, the more your own logic forces you out of a gig.

In his well-known book The God Delusion, Dawkins postulates that “the existence of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other”, and has illustrated the concept with his “spectrum of theistic probability”. It’s a seven-point sliding scale of belief, ranging from strong theist (100% probability of God), to strong atheist (100% probability of no god).

Let’s start by applying reason to the first flank of the scale, religion: “I believe God exists”. Calling for religious people to produce evidence of their belief is by very nature a logically absurd proposition. Religion doesn’t require evidence, it has faith. By definition, faith negates the need to produce tangible evidence, never claims to possess tangible evidence, and therefore stands up to reason.

The only time when reason fails religion is when believers claim to possess earthly evidence of things that are by their own admission not of this earth, not of the physical realm. It is these extremists who Dawkins so logically and effortlessly scalps, and rightly so.

In the middle of the spectrum you have the agnostics: “I don’t know if god exists”. The agnostic makes no claims in either camp. They say, “There is no evidence for or against, so it is impossible to say for sure. Either could be true”. Applying reason, the agnostic’s case holds together.

Then finally we come to the atheist position: “God does not exist”. The atheist will say it is not up to them to prove the non-existence of God, but for those who do believe to substantiate such claims. However reason dictates once you claim a statement as fact, you are then required to provide evidence to support your statement, evidence of which so far does not seem to exist. This does not hold up to the atheist’s own standards of reason.

Atheists will of course see this as an unfair comparison, comparing “moderate” theists with “extreme” atheists. Yet it seems the modus operandi of vocal atheists to place all people of faith into the extreme “God deluded” bucket, and to argue their own position with all the vigour of someone who possesses concrete contrary evidence, of which on Dawkins’ scale one can only be seen as an extreme position.

It is often difficult to figure out where on the scale any atheist sits. Even Dawkins doesn’t call himself a strong atheist, rather “a de-facto atheist” leaning towards the full monty, and has said would be surprised to meet any atheist who was a 100% non-believer. And why? Because being a strong atheist actually goes against reason and starts contradicting its own definition by becoming a belief.

Maybe that’s why those atheist billboards didn’t say, “There’s no God”, but instead, “There’s probably no God”. But surely probability that something isn’t, means that there’s a possibility that something is? I guess the billboard, “There possibly is a God” didn’t quite have the same kick to it.

If you buy a lottery ticket, the odds of winning may be completely fanciful, but they’re still odds. Winning might not be probable, but it is possible. Now only a complete fool would run around town clutching their supplementary numbers telling everyone they’re definitely about to win the big one, but only a liar would tell them that it’s impossible.

So great existential warriors, which do you want to be: the liar or the fool? Without sounding too evangelical, the good news is you don’t have to be either.

We all love facts, so here is the only fact any human being has ever come up with about the meaning of life that makes any lick of sense:

Who bloody knows.

Not one person on this planet knows what happens to us after we die. Not one. No enlightened Buddhist monk, no hyped-up televangelist, no intellectually evolved atheist convention ticket holder. The fact is we don’t know, we’ve never known, and we’re never going to know.

Sure we can have a bit of a stab in the dark, chuck a few assumptions around, use faith and reason to construct belief; but while we inhabit this mortal coil we know just as much about what goes on after the curtains close as did the primordial organisms that slurped their way out of the soup.

Yet even though it’s logically impossible to know what by definition is unknowable, it’s like atheists have embarked upon a mission to prove they can count to infinity, without ever acknowledging the lunacy and futility of the entire endeavour.

“We’re not there just yet, but were getting pretty damn close. Just a few more numbers to go I reckon. Trust me guys, you just gotta have faith”.

Heh, and I thought only creationism was funny.

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292 comments

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    • B Proletariat says:

      11:09pm | 31/03/10

      Consider ourselves lucky we have Religion. Otherwise there would have been a lot more ponzi schemes.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      09:57pm | 31/03/10

      If “‘probably’ isn’t enough in the argument against god”, then “probably” isn’t enough in the argument FOR god either - simple as that.

    • Sean says:

      12:33pm | 30/03/10

      There should not even be such word as an atheiest. It is not as if we call ourselves every thing that we are not, and therefore have to refer to ourselves with another denigrating name for a non-believer. I do not call myself a non-female, non-italian, non-soccer playing human. I just leave those details out, so to be defined as an atheist is just stupid, I may be a non-believer but to me I’m just a human. If you believe then add the ‘prefix’ to the start of your name, but don’t try and bring me down with you.

    • Ben Finney says:

      12:15pm | 04/04/10

      It would indeed be very pleasant to live in a world where “atheist” was an unnecessary label, like “a-unicornist” or “non-stamp-collector”. Unfortunately that’s not this world.

      So long as theistic beliefs are indoctrinated in children, so long as religious organisations get tax exemptions at all citizen’s expense, so long as pernicious myths abound of morality being dependent on supernatural beliefs, so long as unsupported claims are held immune from open criticism, the need to reject such stuff will remain.

    • SkepDadBlog says:

      09:05pm | 29/03/10

      IMHO has it right.
      When you look at the sky, do you say “the sky is blue” or do you say “the mix of visible radiation that my visual cortex is processing when my eye focuses on that which we have conventionally defined as the sky, appears to indicate a similarity to the colour which I have become accustomed to referring to as blue”?
      It’s shorthand.  Same as saying “there’s no god” when what you really mean is “the balance of evidence I have evaluated provides no compelling justification for the existence of what is commonly referred to as god”.
      The difference is in their preparedness to acknowledge evidence that adds to their body of knowledge.  If every human being on the planet woke up tomorrow with the words “I am the Lord thy God” burned into their foreheads in letters of dancing golden fire, Dawkins, Hitchens et al would be the first to acknowledge it as strong evidence.
      Very poor article really.

    • IMHO says:

      11:50am | 29/03/10

      Chris, what nonsense. I’m not going to read through all the commentry, so my points probably been made. And you’ll probably never see this comment. But I’ll press on.

      In general, prudent knowlege seeking rejects the notion of holding a strong belief about anything where the evidence for the belief is weak. Atheism is simply about rejecting the idea of having a strongly held belief in “god” without evidence. No big deal you might say, except that for a vast number of people around the world their strongly held belief without evidence is a driver of a range of deranged behaviours that put the lives of many of the rest of us at risk.

      So you can rant on with your ridiculously-argued pseudo-intellectual debunking of Dawkins probablilty spectrum, the essence of which I’m sure you fail to comprehend, but for many of us, the descent of the world’s population into a faith-based, evidence-poor, decision-making paradigm is a cause for great alarm and justifies the attention drawn to it by people like Dawkins, who I agree can be abrasive and opinionated but whose essential points are not rebuffed by your ad hominem attacks or weakly constructed musings on the subject.

    • JD says:

      10:30am | 29/03/10

      Is it just me or does any one else notice how religion always always involves the obtainment of money and wealth and the utter control over people’s lives? I don’t know if this is a reflection of whether there is a God or not, because it just could be exploitation of God’s will by people, but still, even if I was spiritiual (which I happen to not be by nature) I would not want to take part in any organised religion with all their rules and dictations on how to live your life (just for eg, you can’t be gay, can’t use contraception in the catholic faith). It just seems like “come join our flock, we love you but don’t do this or that and give us money!”.

    • Kat says:

      10:25am | 29/03/10

      People are shocked when I tell them I believe life has no meaning. They think its sad, but I just think this world is beautiful and we are here to reproduce and continue the survival of what is such a rare and wonderful event - life. I don’t know if reproduction is meaning rather than a biological urge but anyway. I have no problem with no meaning. I also don’t believe in life after death, I think enjoy your one life while you’ve got it! Death is just like falling asleep and not waking up - do you remember anything before you were born? Well no, because you didn’t exist. So you won’t exist when you die either, so what is sad about that? If you don’t exist you can’t feel sad! You can feel sad when you are dying, but after that there is nothing to be sad about really. As for a God, I am 99% sure there isn’t one however I never say never and if God appeared before me tomorrow I’d be the first to preach “there is a God!”. But chances are that will never happen, even though I’d love it to so we could put this issue to rest and stop being so ignorant and mean to each other.

    • JD says:

      09:58am | 29/03/10

      I once heard a comedian do a skit about God which I thought was funny. It went along the lines of his relationship with God being very one sided and he was considering breaking up with him. For example, God never answered his calls, he never made time to see him and was always too busy for him. Additionally, God seemed to never get anything right (war, earthquakes, disease etc) and was far too forgiving which meant he never learnt from his mistakes. Quite funny when you think about it!

    • Kelly says:

      09:48am | 29/03/10

      I am an agnostic, and have so many questions that never seem to get a clear answer. If god is all powerful, why does he need us to believe in him? And if he cares that we don’t, why not just appear before us and really convince us? Why does it have to be up to “faith”? And even if we don’t believe in a Christian God, does it matter? He will just forgive us anyway. What is the consequence? Is there actually any benefit to believing - it has been shown that prayer does not improve the chances of a positive outcome. Does anyone know the answers to this? And if there are many gods that are actually the same god, that we see in different eyes, why would god do this when it leads to so much violence and hatred? Why does God make life so unfair and full of suffering? And if God is the real deal, then why is it that people with mental illness often claim they are God - doesn’t this hint of a link between an imbalance in chemicals and belief in God? All I have been able to come up with from others is “god works in mysterious ways”. I am not having a go at anyone I would really like to know others thought on these questions.

    • SkepDadBlog says:

      09:17pm | 29/03/10

      All of these questions are easy to understand really.  God was a creation of primitive people to explain things they couldn’t understand.  As humans grew up, they found better explanations, and stopped believing in the religious ones.
      Feel better without all that nonsense weighing you down?  Now go live your life, it’s probably the only one you’ll ever have!

    • myidea says:

      08:11am | 29/03/10

      OK this is the third time i have tried to post so am sorry if this turns up multiple times. Chris, you are so right. Faith is not fact. This is totally misunderstood - Indeed the faith=fact equation is receipe for extremism (for religious and non religuos). There needs to be risk and doubt in order for there to be faith - there is no merit in act of faith without these things - its called faith for a reason - you dont say ‘i have fact’, but ‘i have faith’. Attempting to conclusively prove or disprove the existence of God is therefore extremist becuase its no longer in the realm of ‘faith’. Athesits are therefore either extremists who try to prove God doesnt exist (deligitimising other faith systems) or a group of people subscribe to the faith system that beleives there is no God and the world can reach its fullfillment by rejecting God (clearly a faith system in its own right)

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:43pm | 29/03/10

      @myidea:
      “but isnt a lack of belief in a God a belief in itself?”
      No. Though I guess you could say that atheists are people who believe that they have not seen any credible evidence for a god. A bit of a stretch of the term though.

      “if they dont profess either way then i was under the impression this was acutally agnostic?”
      Agnosticism (and its opposite, Gnosticism) relate to what you claim to know, rather than what you believe (although to what degree you know something is another issue).  Somebody who claims to know on faith that God exists would be a gnostic theist, someone like myself (or Dawkins, Dennett et al) would be an agnostic atheist.

      “I would still argue they subscribe to a broad atheist belief system.”
      As abover, there is no atheist ‘belief’, and certainly no ‘atheist belief system’. There are belief systems that are consistent with atheism (ie. they don’t require the existence of a deity), but atheism is not a club or a church – the only ‘membership’ requirement is that you don’t believe in a god.

      “you dont have to agree with them but you can respect them as human beings in control of their own destiny”
      I respect people’s right to hold beliefs.  In my experience, atheists are more likely to defend the rights of religion x than those in a faith competing with religion x (perhaps this is because we’re a minority that we understand the importance of this right).  But if I think an idea is a bad one, or that a belief is unfounded, I will tell people (it’s another right I hold dear).  Not to tell people that I believe they are in error would actually be disrespectful.  Similarly, I do not grant religions any special rights simply because they are religions.  Beliefs about how or why we are here are not magically off limits for conversation or criticism.
      But I agree that people on both sides are not always out to share information, they’re often just out to scream and rant.

    • DG says:

      02:34pm | 29/03/10

      “but isnt a lack of belief in a God a belief in itself? ie a belief that God doesnt exist (irespective of the degree of conviction)?”

      Not really.

      The atheist has no belief, only an observation that there is insufficient evidence for the god hypothesis and that in the absence of evidence we much return to the null hypothesis (i.e there is no god). Without the god hypothesis there would be no atheist.

      For example scientologists are “atheist”, they have no belief in god. There are other religions that are the same (i.e that have no deity, but may have a belief in the supernatural). For that reason it is wrong to assume that there is an “atheist” belief system. For example: Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God - both the Jews and the Muslims reject this hypothesis. Does that mean that the Muslims and the Jews have the same beliefs? They don’t even have the same belief about who Jesus was.

      The rejection of the God hypothesis does not mean a common belief. A common observation perhaps but certainly not a belief. Interestingly, we assume that the God hypothesis is about the Christian God. A much more defensible position is that of the Deist god created all, and then left creation to its own devices.

      As for agnostics: they acknowledge that there is no evidence for god’s existence but are unwilling to reject the god hypothesis. That is akin to appreciating that there is no evidence that Dragons do exist, but being unwilling to reject the Dragon hypothesis. I think that really speaks for itself.

      Militant atheists (or extremists), those that try to disprove god, still require the God hypothesis to exist. They require a clear definition of god which they can disprove. Those who hear the God hypothesis and agree that there is no evidence for the hypothesis are either atheists or have faith (i.e are religious), those that believe that there is proof of God tend to be on the Fundamentalist/extremist side of things (and ignore the ‘proof denies faith’ theory).

    • myidea says:

      12:46pm | 29/03/10

      but isnt a lack of belief in a God a belief in itself? ie a belief that God doesnt exist (irespective of the degree of conviction)?  if they dont profess either way then i was under the impression this was acutally agnostic? the atheists that you described, like yourself, i would not obviously call extremist (who move toward the ‘fact’ arena) but I would still argue they subscribe to a broad atheist belief system.

      personally (unrelated to previous argument) I have no problem with people believing something different to me, what concerns me is when people patronise of a majority of the worlds popultion (past and present) by assuming an ‘enlightened’ position and subscribing to long-debunked idea of the ‘the gullible masses’ - you dont have to agree with them but you can respect them as human beings in control of their own destiny.

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:52am | 29/03/10

      @myidea:
      “Athesits are therefore either extremists who try to prove God doesnt exist (deligitimising other faith systems) or a group of people subscribe to the faith system that beleives there is no God”
      This is a false dichotomy.  Atheism is the lack of a belief in god - not the positive assertion that there is no god.  People who do assert absolutely that there is no god are still atheists - but most atheists (myself included) do not, and I personally have not met anybody who holds that view.  We can of course make the argument that there is no god (not claiming absolute knowledge) based on a lack of evidence (despite no lack of believers searching) and the well-documented tendency for people to invent gods. It is no more arrogant to say that there is no god than to say that there are no leprechauns. I hope this has been helpful.

    • Dee says:

      07:55am | 29/03/10

      And if there was a God or Gods , he or she or they have been badly misrepresented .How could any superbeing be so judgemental and biggotted as the various churches representing him, her or they to be?
      Religion has been , and will remain as a control method for the masses .

    • Matt says:

      05:53pm | 28/03/10

      Matter can spontaneously appear and reappear, in that sense quantum fluctuations can create a universe from nothing.

      No God is required in this.

    • Matt says:

      01:49pm | 31/12/10

      that’s true. and they follow inherent formulae derived from the famous Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

      No ‘God’ needed.

    • monkeytypist says:

      04:10pm | 29/03/10

      @Daddio D the problem with positing that something has to “cause” quantum fluctuations is that you then have to posit something that causes the causer of the fluctuations, and something that causes that, and something that causes that, etc. It’s called an infinite regress and it was established centuries ago as a problematic factor in discussions of God.  And talking about quantum processes as having a “cause” anyway is misleading, since they are inherently random.

    • Daddio D says:

      06:24am | 29/03/10

      And the source of these quantum fluctuations is…?

    • sarahjanejones says:

      04:31pm | 28/03/10

      I was raised in a Christian family, attended a Christian school and have read the Bible cover to cover. I find the entire thing hypocritical, illogical, and often full of ideas that are downright disgusting (treatment of women, treatment of homosexuals, the fact that it sees absolutely no problem with slavery, the many crazy things in Leviticus ect… you all know the athiest rant by now I’m sure).

      I know many Christians who are lovely lovely people and I just do not understand how intellgent and kind people can just fall into “its faith I don’t need proof, oh yeah that doesn’t make any sense but God is just too big to understand” I may not know exactly what happens when people die, and I may not rule out the existence of a superior being or creator (I probably do though) but I certainly cannot support the Christian God. He is not merciful, he is not kind. There is no love and grace about him at all.

    • Craigles says:

      10:05am | 29/03/10

      Daddio D - that’s not very kind, loving, or graceful, is it?  What about those that cannot submit to something they have tried to reason for or reasoned about, and cannot in good conscience, logically believe?

    • Daddio D says:

      08:56pm | 28/03/10

      It’s only when you submit to this God that you find His mercy, kindness, love and grace. Those who reject God and do not submit to Him have none of these.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:17am | 28/03/10

      What, no mention of the Devil? God and the reward of Heaven isn’t as half effective when there is no threat of the punishment of hell…..

    • Daddio D says:

      09:33am | 28/03/10

      I’m so disappointed that no one in this debate has recognised that religion drives scientific enquiry. Therefore God exists and Dawkins’ theories are thus destroyed. Only fools listen to his rantings.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:48pm | 29/03/10

      Since when has religion driven scientific enquiry?

      Religion has often done the opposite, and while many scientists are religious, I have never seen anything in any major religion that might specifically promote scientific enquiry.

    • Drew says:

      08:49am | 29/03/10

      What?  That makes no sense logically or historically.

    • John in Alice says:

      07:59pm | 27/03/10

      The last I heard was that people here were free to worship, or not worship as they pleased, so the point behind all this dialog is???? No one can debate faith, you either have it or you don’t.  It might be faith in your doctor, or your spouse or a stranger who claims to heal by touch.  Athiests simply make asses of themselves by their vile, biased assertions.  Their need to go out of their way in mocking religion, and childish name calling displays deep seated anxieties that they can only resolve by attacking religion.  They are jealous of how simple faith can ease the pain and anguish of human experience.  Happy, content people assured of an eternal life on a different plane have no need to put others down.

      In one regard the author is correct.  Our planet was a beautiful place out of the influence of humans.  There is something vitally wrong with us that makes us aggressive, greedy, destructive and lustful and human laws, courts and jails are simply not enough to make things right and never have been.
      Those door knockers are there to offer something better, but you have every right to turn them away.  If only athiests were so concerned for their fellow man you might actually convince a few that your way of thinking is right.

    • Dave Sag says:

      03:34pm | 27/03/10

      Normally I’d ignore this sort of story but it flashed past just as some irritating old christian lady came to the door to evangelise her beliefs.

      Dawkins, in The God Delusion makes the very excellent point that all Christians are Hindu atheists.  Christians don’t believe in Ganesh or Krishna or Kali or any of that stuff.  They are atheists of the Roman Gods like Zeus and so forth.  So why not just it all one god further; Occam’s Razor and all.  It’s a lot like the old proof by induction I was taught in high school maths.

      To argue that the onus is on atheists to provide evidence that there are no gods is just daft.  Do I have to also provide evidence that there is no flying spaghetti monster (praise be to his noodly appendages)? Do I need to provide evidence that leprechauns do not exist? How about Santa?  Is the onus on me to demonstrate evidence that there is no Santa?

      No.  Outrageous claims require outrageous evidence. Despite all the observable evidence so far there has never been any actual sign of a divine hand in anything. Ever. There have of course been those bunny-in-clouds incidences where people impose their own beliefs on random patterns - the universe is after all far too complex for coincidence not to happen all the time - but when you get down to it, belief in gods requires faith, and faith just doesn’t respond well to being tested.  The more we know about the real world, the less room there is for the supernatural.  Heck I’ve driven over Mount Olympus and there were simply no gods there.  Did they go away because no-one believes in them anymore? Or did they never exist in the first place?

      Sorry all you believers out there, the bible is just a book; the koran is a book; the torah, a book.  That one the hari-krishnas bang on about?  Just a book.  written by people every last one of them.  There are no gods.  Accepting that is the first step to a true appreciation of just how wonderful the world actually is, and how lucky we are to live in it.

      Douglas Adams said.  It’s enough to know the garden is beautiful, without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it.

      And really, for chris’s sake, you’d think, if the Christian God were real it’d send better sales people to my front door.  You believers may not like what I have to say, but you don’t find atheists knocking at your door on a Saturday morning asking you to consider the benefits of a rational life.

      Though there is a Facebook Group called Door-knocking for Atheism. Hooray.  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=40201342857&ref=ts

    • Proud Infidel says:

      03:42pm | 28/03/10

      Peter, don’t you think its strange that you have to rely on science to prove the date of the Shroud of Turin. After all this is the same science that proofs evolution.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      03:25pm | 28/03/10

      Dave Sag, thank you. Some sense a last.

    • JB says:

      12:11pm | 27/03/10

      I have always held the position that some atheists and skeptics, especially those that join societies, are just as extreme in their beliefs as the very religious.  Sure, some of their arguments might have some weight but the vehemence with which they spout their opinion is akin to being preached to.  I like my skeptics to be moderate just as I can also tolerate moderately religious people because they both have their opinions and while they might try to gently persuade you around to their point of view they will never jam it down your neck or verbally put you down for believing differently.

    • Charles says:

      11:45am | 27/03/10

      May God have mercy on all of your souls….you have no idea what peace and grace you’re missing out on.

    • cybacaT says:

      10:41am | 27/03/10

      I have yet to find an atheist who is well-balanced, happy and healthy.  Each has a burning internal anger, usually fueled by personal circumstances.  It’s a chip they carry, and the frustration is that under their own power they’re unable to reach a level of contentment in the world.  Their outlet (and I put Dawkins in this category) is to hate and attack those who appear to have that contentment and happiness.
      Perhaps the best example is the massive - and I mean massive - amount of good work done for the underprivileged by Christians.  This is consistently and continually ignored by atheists in their attacks.  Rather, they latch on desperately to any news about particular cases regarding 1 particular church (the Catholic) and cases of undeniably horrible treatment of kids.  This extremely selective review of the benefits of Christianity for society shines a bright light on the attack by atheists and demonstrates clearly that there is no fair or open-mindedness about their comments.

    • Kelly says:

      10:11am | 29/03/10

      I am an atheist and a very happy, healthy and well-balanced one. I have no hatred or anger toward believers but would love to sit down and have a rational argument with them about why they believe in God. But often I find they get defensive so sometimes it’s best to not discuss these things. But I am happy in my own ideas and not phased one bit by a god/no god discussion. I love a good old brain workout. To be honest I have the opposite problem - I have yet to find a God believer who isn’t defensive and full of hatred/anger towards atheists. Would love to meet some open-minded Christians.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:17am | 29/03/10

      How many atheist do you know? Richard Dawkins is a public figure which one could assume you have never even met. Judging someone without knowing them is very unchristian like. Judging a section of society is very unchristian like.

      I would like to meet a christian who actually follows the word of the lord. What possible argument is there against gay marriage?

    • iansand says:

      04:55pm | 28/03/10

      We should have a beer one day.

    • Jane says:

      12:44pm | 28/03/10

      I would love to meet you!
      I’m a very happy Atheist, nothing dramatic happened in my life to make me this way.
      Christians are good because their ‘god’ tells them to be, otherwise they go to hell. Christians only help others go get them to believe in the big invisible dude in the sky.. Why cant they just help and not mention this dictator?
      I donate to non religion charities, I do what I can for the people I meet, youn know why? Because I’m a nice person with a moral compass, yes even without god, people can be nice.

    • Peter says:

      09:58am | 27/03/10

      It’s OK to be nuts. You can call it faith.
      The old testament God suffers from fatigue and His Son thought Adam & Eve and Noah actually existed.

    • Steve says:

      08:44am | 27/03/10

      God is alive and well and working on a less ambitious project.

    • Marion Simpson says:

      06:33am | 27/03/10

      In the news we constantly see The Cathoilc church involved in various crimes of a sexual nature normally against children and this is done all in the name of God. Parishoners go every week and donate to this church , while in some country somewhere a child is being or was abused. I am not singling out just The Cathoilc church because I am sure its happened in other denominations and all Gods name. How can any rational person see this as a good and just and God like thing?. If there was God , would he be so cold callus and cruel to allow this to happen in his name? Not likely. We believe in God to stave off our fear of death, having a larger brain that any other animal allows us to know that death is the end.

    • Stephen says:

      06:21am | 27/03/10

      You were going well until “Let’s start by applying reason to the first flank of the scale…”

      You can’t compare “I believe god exists” with “god doe not exist” for the word “believe” changes the dynamic of the sentence and reduces it to less than an extreme.

      If you are comparing the two ‘extremes’ then the extremes must read, “God exists” (for this is the statement extreme theists make) and “God does not exist” which is the Atheists counter. They are both therefore subject to reason.

      If you are going to compare a moderate theist to a moderate atheist then the statements must read “I believe god exists” and “I don’t believe god exists”.

      You can’t compare apples to oranges.

      I understand that you believe the MO of atheists is to lump all theists in the same bucket, but this is simply not true. The majority of us (IMO) only take exception to the theists who state their beliefs as true and/or fact.

    • Brent says:

      06:11am | 27/03/10

      Atheism isn’t a belief system. Its the lack of belief (not all belief, I believe in society and believe we can deal with any situation that arises). Your blog is part of the growing ‘lunacy’ of religion. You have pushed yourselves so far into a corner that now the only leg you have to stand on is the ‘other team can’t say they are definitely right so God still exists.’ But I’ll give you the tip, he doesn’t, you turn to dust, love the life you have

    • cybacaT says:

      10:06pm | 26/03/10

      All I hear from Dawkins through his speeches and books is a very bitter, twisted and angry man.  It’s an all-consuming anger that completely clouds any open-minded or fair consideration of issues such as God.  It’s clear this “atheist” does blame someone for his physical state, and the best revenge he can seek is to lie to the masses that God does not exist.  Very sad to the point of pitiful.

    • A says:

      07:57pm | 26/03/10

      @Craigles - Organic Chemistry can’t account for the information in our DNA, a 4 bit self-replicating code. The DNA is the code of life, biological entities take shapes and functions according to their genes. I can see amazing things coming from the understanding of the human genome. The problem that I see for the current understanding of the origin of life (by random, purposeless processes of the evolution) is that it can’t accommodate the existence of information in every biological organism that dictates its composition, existence and replication. From what we know so far, information only comes from intelligence, according to SETI (Search for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence). We’re yet to understand if and how organic matter can self generate information, not to mention intelligent agents….

    • Craigles says:

      11:52am | 27/03/10

      A - DNA is the ultimate example of organic chemistry: the way the bases are formed; the way the bases come together as a single helix; and the way the 2 helices come together, is all down to the way the atoms bond and the sequences they are in.

      The dozens of atoms available in the universe came from fission and fusion of H & He in the stars (like the sun).  The bonds they are able to form vary from atom to atom: C probably is the most versatile.  N, H, O, are too.

    • Not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays says:

      06:15pm | 26/03/10

      Faith flies planes into buildings and is not all there is to knowing God. Faith is all man has since he moved his mind out of his heart and exclusively into his brain.
      Why did the organism bother to jump out of the soup if it didn’t have the urge to strive to be something more advanced? And would it have made the effort if it knew its future was going to hit a dead end when it evolved into Richard Dawkins and his kind? 
      God cannot be intellectualized; it is intuition and coincidence. God is all there is and is inside all of us but we’re too scared to admit to it because if we did we’d have to be nice to each other. God is love, and that’s why he/she can’t be seen or heard, except fleetingly, in this hate filled purgatory. Who would want to spend time in this soup of materiality if they weren’t trapped, or striving to be something more advanced?

    • G says:

      06:00pm | 26/03/10

      When the author of this article says “faith negates the need to produce tangible evidence” I think he is wrong. As a committed Christian I’d suggest that of course faith requires some evidence (there’s no such thing as blind faith). On the hand, faith doesn’t require proof. There’s a difference between evidence and proof. Richard Dawkins may look at the same evidence as I do about something like the resurrection of Jesus. The difference comes in interpretation - I think there is enough evidence to believe in God, Richard Dawkins thinks the opposite. Can I prove it? No. Is God’s existence beyond any doubt? No. Is his existence beyond doubt in my mind? Yes. Who’s right? Well, either we’ll both never know, or we’ll both one day know.

      faith negates the need to produce tangible evidence, never claims to possess tangible evidence

    • Djinn says:

      06:33am | 27/03/10

      Mate, with all due respect, you might want to look up the meanings of proof and evidence. They are the same thing.

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence

      Also, faith does not require evidence. The very definition of faith, is belief without proof. So you’re right, faith negates the need to provide evidence, because there isn’t any to start with which is fair enough. Just don’t go around claiming your beliefs as fact (general comment, not directed at you personally.)

    • Russell says:

      05:55pm | 26/03/10

      “Let’s start by applying reason to the first flank of the scale, religion: “I believe God exists”. Calling for religious people to produce evidence of their belief is by very nature a logically absurd proposition. Religion doesn’t require evidence, it has faith. By definition, faith negates the need to produce tangible evidence, never claims to possess tangible evidence, and therefore stands up to reason.”

      This paragraph is ridiculous. Just because those putting forward the proposition “God does exist” reject the requirement for reason does not mean it stands up to reason. If you accept unquestioningly that believers are immune to criticism of their reasoning there is no way the rest of your piece can possibly be fair and balanced.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:01am | 29/03/10

      Agreed, Russell.  An extra-logical being is indistinguishable from an illogical one. It’s special pleading at it’s worst. 
      I don’t understand why the question of the existence of a creator being is allowed a free pass.

    • Ellie says:

      04:21pm | 26/03/10

      I’m not a fan of these atheist conventions or whatever either. But don’t put as all in one basket. I just want to get on with my life and spend it how I want. It’s religious nuts who should get off our backs. Christians infiltrate our government with their propaganda on gay people. Islamists teach their children to blow themselves up and beat their wives and stone others to death. Both Christians and Muslims believe that marriage belongs to them and they should dictate the rules of marriage, even though it was invented by pagans long before God came around. Fundamentals of Christianity and Islam is that man owns woman, man beats woman if he wants, man has many wives and many slaves, sinners are stoned to death. This is what your bible and your kuran say. I hate it when people try to modernise their religion. Why not make a completely different name for it. Most of them don’t even practice what they preach. Like abstaining from pre-marital sex. Who actually does that these days? Isn’t it a sin anymore? Who would have thought God has changed his mind over so many things the past two thousand years..

    • TB says:

      04:11pm | 26/03/10

      The “probably” is simply the by-product of the kinder, gentler atheism that’s permeated into the mainstream in order to make their position just slightly less offensive to the overly-touchy god botherers out there. In my mind, Nietzsche hit the nail right on the head when he said “Gott ist tot” (God is dead). It’s just that in our society now one of the greatest offenses one can commit is to offend somebody, so now atheists are effectively undermining their own positions in order to sound politically correct, while the thumpers simply keep thumping away for the same reason that a dog will lick its nether regions (because they can).

    • Jim Wiggs says:

      03:39pm | 26/03/10

      Maybe atheists have faith that God doesn’t exist…

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      09:41am | 27/03/10

      Which god Jim? There’s been thousands of the blighters.

    • NK says:

      03:12pm | 26/03/10

      “Religion doesn’t require evidence, it has faith. By definition, faith negates the need to produce tangible evidence, never claims to possess tangible evidence, and therefore stands up to reason.”

      Nonsense.

      What you say may well speak for the majority of religions, but it certainly doesn’t describe Deism.

    • Matt Burgess says:

      03:07pm | 26/03/10

      What a silly article. It’s fundamentally flawed.

      “However reason dictates once you claim a statement as fact, you are then required to provide evidence to support your statement, evidence of which so far does not seem to exist.”

      This is the core issue, but it’s simply not true. Saying “I don’t believe you.” is not a statement to which you should have to prove evidence. The person making a claim has to provide evidence. The person questioning that claim does not have to provide evidence against it. The religious only seem to consider their own beliefs above question, though. By the same standard a Christian should have to disprove Vishnu, Buddha and Zoroaster.

      And another thing - I’m an athiest. But I like Christmas. And easter. I believe in love, and kindness, gentleness and humility. These things are not unique to Christians. They’re part of being a good human.

    • H of SA says:

      02:55pm | 26/03/10

      A request from a theist to the atheists.

      I H of SA, am happy debate the existance of God. However, to actually move the debate forward I humbly request the following

      1) Come up with an argument against God that hasn’t existed for at least 2000 years - and hasn’t been easily debunked for at least 2000 years. (word of advice, Dawkins is using some pretty old arguments - its just been long enough since anyone trotted them out that its “fresh” and very profitable).

      2) If you want to play science against religion. Please make sure you have some understanding of at least one of the topics, preferably both (Another hint, if your playing them against each other, there is a good chance you don’t understand either. I suggests spending sometime talking to the numerous theist professional scientists that exist in this world)

      3) If you want to claim rationality as the basis for your argument against the existance of God, come up with a convincing reason why atheism is more rational than agnosticism.

      4) If your planning on arguing that we shouldn’t believe in God but its not up to you to disprove God, then accept the fact you don’t sound too convincing. The job of convincing lies with the one trying to convice. So when you try to convert an theist to atheism, recognise that telling the theist the burden of proof lying with them sounds pretty hollow, remember you are trying to change their view - it won’t work if you yourself can’t be bothered to make a the effort. Arguing that someone else has to have a reason for their belief but you don’t need one isn’t a good look. Nor is it persuasive.

      If you could follow these points, I reckon we could move into a debate which is actually moving forward from the safe old boring arguments that have failed to converts theist for these last few millenia.

    • Steely Dan says:

      04:10pm | 26/03/10

      @ H of SA

      Let’s ignore the fact you seem to think atheists have the burden of proof…

      1) The age of an argument says nothing about whether its a good argument or not.
      2) The “numerous theist professional scientists” generally subscribe to the NOMA theory - in short, that science and religion are different categories, and they’re not allowed to meet. Another way of saying that religion is not scientific.
      3) Atheism and agnosticism aren’t mutually exclusive! Dawkins is an agnostic atheist!
      4) We shouldn’t believe in pixies, but the burden of proof lies with the person who claims that pixies exist - and for good reason. If I say ‘nobody has ever taken a photo of a pixie’, the believer could say that they’re invisible to cameras. It’s impossible to argue against a god when the goalposts are constantly shifting.  If you make a claim, you have to back it.

      Why don’t you give an argument for the existence of god?

    • monkeytypist says:

      03:58pm | 26/03/10

      H - a few points.
      (A) Atheism - in the sense we understand it - has not been around for 2000 years.  Modern atheism is predicated on a scientific understanding of the world - with knowledge of things like biology, physics, geology and chemistry.  A complete scientific understanding of the origins of life still eludes us, but we have a much better picture that people writing 200 or even 20 years ago.  So to treat atheism as intellectually the same thing over 2000 years is deeply misleading.
      (2) The failure of a given person to be convinced or not convinced of an idea is not ipso facto evidence for its soundness as a proposition.  This is called the “argument from authority” and is a logical fallacy that is addressed in science but not in religion, which holds store on whether an individual accepts something as true, not whether it can be independently demonstrated to be true.  There are very sound philosophical rebuttals for all of the arguments usually made for God’s existence by people like Thomas Aquinas.  Such counter-arguments have been largely ignored and dismissed not on their merits but on the basis that they undermined fundamental views held by a majority of people in society.  That however doesn’t make them wrong, any more than the fact that the majority of people used to believe the Earth was flat made it so.
      (3) As you would know, religion has played a vast and important role in human society for millenia.  In fact, go back far enough and it would be impossible to talk about “religion” being distinct from “society” at all.  It would be extremely difficult to find someone who disagreed fundamentally with the basic beliefs of a society, since such a person tended to be executed.  Now our society is pluralist and intellectually diverse, that power no longer exists and as a result people have begun to think outside of established doctrines and question them using science.  This phenomenon is relatively new, but nevertheless the number of atheists worldwide is growing every day.
      (4) In the theistic societies of the past, it was assumed that religion was natural and innate and that children raised in isolation from other humans would grow up believing in God.  We have since discovered this to be false - children do not believe in God unless they are inculcated by their parents/society.  Atheism is the default human position, and religion is a societal construct, just like agriculture.  Therefore, given the diversity of religious views that exist, it is imperative that a religious person be able to empirically justify their faith.  Otherwise there is no reason for us as rational people to set any store by what they say.
      (5) I don’t know what your own beliefs are, but I am guessing you believe that there is no such god as Thor, or Osiris, or Zeus, and to believe in those gods, and issue sacrifices to them, would be pointless superstition.  Without relying on supernatural explanations (e.g. “God favours it”), explain how believing in Christianity or your belief system of choice is more rational than these other pointless superstitions.  Until you can, there isn’t a debate at all. There’s rational science, and there’s people who choose for whatever reason to put themselves outside of it.

    • J says:

      03:45pm | 26/03/10

      All ver well and good, but the debate will still circle until the end of days (or whatever), because neither side has conclusive proof that a God does or does not exist.

      Some questions just weren’t meant to be answered.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:25pm | 26/03/10

      Chris, this was a terrible article. Sorry, but its true.

      Faith - belief without reason - is reasonable? Really? The fact that believers don’t suggest that their claim is testable is harmful to their claim, provided they believe that their god/s have some observable impact. Deists are safe here, but most traditional theists are not.

      Atheists say “there is no God”? Not necessarily. And not in Dawkins’ case. Dawkins is a self-described agnostic atheist. Like myself. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Atheism is the lack of a belief in god - its true that you can be an atheist and claim that you know that there is no god, and in that case alone the burden of proof would rest with that particular atheist.

      And love is irrational in the eyes of science? Who the hell thinks that?

      Remember Chris, asserting a position that is probable is always going to be a safer bet than a position that is improbable!

    • stephen says:

      02:18pm | 26/03/10

      Even if there is a God - amorphic or otherwise - should it really matter to anyone but a Philosopher, a Poet or a Priest ?
      Do you think a God is going to pay our bills for us, or tell our wives we love them or protect our children with generosity and mercy ?
      How many of you now wander the streets thinking of those great riddles of the Universe, thinking ‘now if there really is a God, I’ll have somewhere to go when i’m a hundred and forty’
      Nup ? That’s right, neither do I.
      Sir Martin Rees reckons he’s gonna find out for us.
      If he does discover the edge of the Uniiverse (that, by implication, with determine who or what God is), every Tom, Dick and Harriet will give a sigh, and get on with bussiness of paying our bills, squabbling with the neighbour (or carousing with them), just like we’ve allways done.
      So any pretence that we really care about such grand things can stop right now !!

    • the apologist says:

      04:17pm | 26/03/10

      You’re wrong Stephen. I am firmly convicted that there is a God, and it affects absolutely every aspect of my life. It is not mere abstract knowledge.
      And actually, I know of plenty of times where God has intervened to ‘pay the bills’ (read the autobiographical account of George Muller…).
      Everything changes when you realise who God is and experience walking with Him day by day as He created us to. I’d say more, but it’s like trying to describe colour to a man blind from birth.

    • the apologist says:

      02:23pm | 26/03/10

      “The fool says in his heart ‘there is no God’”.
      Psalm 14 v 1

    • DG says:

      10:05pm | 26/03/10

      The wise man yells it from the rooftops.

    • AliceC says:

      03:53pm | 26/03/10

      Well if it’s in the bible it’s gotta be true!!!!!

    • Peter says:

      02:10pm | 26/03/10

      I see bitter aethiest as people who simply want to ruin Christmas for children. If you don’t want to believe in God, that’s fine, no problem there, but just get off everyone else’s backs…

    • Ron Saunders says:

      06:42am | 01/04/10

      Nat
      the same could be said about God/Jesus!

    • Nat says:

      10:07am | 29/03/10

      Yes because lying to Children about a man called Santa Claus is very noble!

    • cats says:

      04:09pm | 26/03/10

      Nope you’re wrong. I’m an atheist and I celebrate xmas but for me its about spending time with the people I love and making them feel good, and feeling good myself. That’s what i’ll teach my kids when I have them.

    • J says:

      03:28pm | 26/03/10

      The same could be said for fundamental religious nuts - if you think the idea of us evolving fro fish is laughable, fine - just keep it to yourself.

    • Grant says:

      03:15pm | 26/03/10

      I see I see said the blind man…

      So you religious types don’t like other people preaching their belief’s at you…?  How deliciously ironic…

    • DG says:

      02:44pm | 26/03/10

      Children can celebrate Saturnalia, Passover (which happens to be next week) or simply celebrate life (their own, their family’s or their pet’s). 

      An annual celebration involving Santa and presents certainly doesn’t require Christianity. Fortunately this country, unlike the USA, has made a pretty smooth transition from “Merry Christmas” to “Happy Holidays” without anyone seeming to care.

      There are still presents and celebrations, just less religion. 

      Don’t worry, Christmas is pretty safe. Even I “celebrate” on the 25th of December for the benefit of my Catholic wife and her family. My celebrations have nothing to do with a bloke born in a barn 2000 odd years ago, but I celebrate friends and family and a few days off work.

      Personally I prefer New Years but that may just the the Scottish blood longing for Auld Land Syne.

      ...now if they could determine the birthday of Mitochondrial Eve, perhaps we could celebrate that instead. 25th of December sounds good, we could hijack an existing religious festival and name it as our own. Thus Saturnalia becomes Christmas, and Christmas becomes Eve Day.

    • soraya says:

      02:04pm | 26/03/10

      No silicon heaven? But where do all the calculators go?

    • Timmo says:

      01:43pm | 26/03/10

      Thanks Paul Horn for the nice words. Yes I did make up my comment re Alices brain pain but it was not meant to demean her or him, whichever of the two. Just a bit of friendly banter really. Hope she is not upset. Long ravings by me can be a bit too much for peoples brains I am sure. However I am Panthienistic and always will be, so for me the symbolic side is very important in relation to the higher visions and feelings that arise from them. It obviously is a vast subject matter and it may not be important to others who read here so I won’t go on.Thanks for that tho.Paul, good to have nice things said, should be more of it. Good Luck and vibrations to all.

    • AliceC says:

      08:39am | 29/03/10

      Yes, I agree. Just some friendly banter, not upset at all.

    • Daniel says:

      01:28pm | 26/03/10

      Try being an Atheist and watch your Government dictating policy based on or heavily influenced by their ‘Faith’. It’s terrifying the garbage you believe.

    • Ellie says:

      04:15pm | 31/03/10

      Heres one for you Peter: marriage. Our government will not let homosexuals marry because their Christian faith tells them its not right, despite the fact that marriage was invented by pagans long before Jesus walked the earth.

      Atheists only want themselves represented in parliment? Who has said that to you? I could quite easily say that “Christians only want themselves represented in parliment” simply because i don’t like their beliefs, like you don’t like atheism.

    • Andrew Goff says:

      12:44pm | 29/03/10

      Easy: Churchs are tax exempt.

    • Peter says:

      02:40pm | 26/03/10

      Daniel, which policies have been faith based? Has there been a law passed insisting you become a christian? I keep hearing this, but i am not aware of a single “faith based” law. Im happy to have aethiest in parliament, but i want believers in there too. It seems to me aethiests only want themselves represented in parliament…

    • DG says:

      01:23pm | 26/03/10

      First and foremost, the atheist position is this “I do not believe the hypothesis that there is a god”. Without the hypothesis in favour of the existence of god there is no atheist. There is no need for a god.

      If you are making a special pleading - admit that is the case. Admit that you don’t think that the rules of logic apply and as such we can ignore it the same way that we ignore leprechauns and any other claim that is devoid of logic or reason.

      Your suggestion that evidence denies faith needs to be taken to its fullest conclusion. Your argument for God is that there is no evidence that he exists. So your only evidence for something, i.e the reason for your faith, is the absence of evidence for it? Does that make even the slightest bit of sense to any one?

      “However reason dictates once you claim a statement as fact, you are then required to provide evidence to support your statement, evidence of which so far does not seem to exist. This does not hold up to the atheist’s own standards of reason.”

      There is no statement of fact in atheism, there is simply the observation that your god hypothesis is completely unjustified and, in the absence of such evidence, retain the null hypothesis (i.e that there is no god).


      I did like that you chose to compare believing in god to believing that you will win lotto. It’s a great analogy. The odds of there being a god “may be completely fanciful, but they are still odds”. Now look a step further - It would be a foolish person indeed who lived their life on the presumption that they would win lotto equally It would be irresponsible for you to let your friend live their life in the belief that they were going to win lotto knowing the odds.

      I think you’ll find that the Deist god that you have described, as opposed to the God of the bible who has the traits specified therein, is impossible to disprove. But we certainly have no teachings of such an incorporeal being, we have no guidance of heaven and hell we have only “god given reason” from which to determine how we best live our life.

      That is to say, there is probably no God, stop worrying about God and enjoy life. Life, at least, is real.

    • monkeytypist says:

      03:44pm | 26/03/10

      Peter - both Hawking and Einstein consider(ed) themselves agnostics and did/do not believe that the existence of the universe provides proof for the existence of God.  In particular, in A Brief History of Time, Hawking discusses how he disagrees with Pope John Paul II that there could be considered to be a “moment” of creation, since the purported structure of space-time make such an idea meaningless.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:48pm | 26/03/10

      Awesome comment DG. I thought I’d write this because I think its a travesty that only a creationist had responded to you at the time of me writing.

    • Peter says:

      02:08pm | 26/03/10

      Certainly Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawkins can not comprehend how the universe could have been created without the existence of God. As for these other clown scientists running around with no proof calling everyone stupid for not believing God, I say to them greater minds than you disagree. These smart people like Dawkins prefer to think they were once fish, because to them that makes more sense than the existence of God… But you are right to say, just enjoy life. As a person who believes in God, i believe that believers and non-believers will ultimately be judged on their character. There have been many evil religous and aethiest people in our history.. Simply believing won’t attone people for their sins…

    • Robert Smissen of Rural SA says:

      11:41am | 26/03/10

      To explain the difference between faith & fact/knowledge is easy. My wife KNOWS all her children are hers, I only have faith/hope they are all mine

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      03:53pm | 27/03/10

      Really no trust ?

    • Craigles says:

      11:36am | 27/03/10

      DNA testing will sort out the answer, Robert

    • stephen says:

      02:25pm | 26/03/10

      Ha !! Nice one.

    • Seth Brundle says:

      11:25am | 26/03/10

      Arguments depend upon the application of logic, and faith removes all dependence on logic, so these arguments are utterly futile.  Watching christians trying to argue the validity of their faith is like watching a sponge cake trying to program a VCR.
      Also, I find it patronising that you would compare my god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, to (insert other god here).  FSM is at the very least as valid as your god(s)

    • AliceC says:

      04:01pm | 26/03/10

      Don’t forget James in Footscray’s Frog God….

    • Simon Ingram says:

      11:21am | 26/03/10

      EVIDENCE:
      A bit of evidence for you all.
      The British Museum contains Septuagent versions of the Old Testament, carbon dated to the third century BC. These books contain detailed descriptions of events which happend in 200BC, 160BC, and most importantly of all, 32AD (also 70AD. As just the most detailed examples).
      In other words, manuscripts dated in the third century BC, available for all to see in the British Museum today, have recorded history in the 2nd century BC, 1st century BC, and 1st century AD.
      Is the carbon dating wrong?
      Or was history written in advance, coming from a source that is outside of our time domain?
      “Christians have no evidence.”
      - What crap.

    • Matt says:

      01:34pm | 31/12/10

      Actually, there is proof for evolution, plenty of it.

      Do not confuse the fact that they call it the Theory of Evolution.

      Scientific theory is defined differently than philosphical theory - wikipedia it.

      Just one example of evolution is the recent story of Japanese scientists subjecting mice to be more ‘prone’ to mutations (a stepping stone of evolution), over time the mice began to ‘sing’.

    • Andrew Goff says:

      03:27am | 29/03/10

      Simon,

      With Respect,

      This has been shown to be a beat-up so often I am surprised it still gets a run.

      First: Do you understand carbon dating at all? The date given is when the tree that the paper came from died. Why is this important? Ancient manuscripts were used and reused and reused again. To suggest that a religious manuscript would remain unchanged for 10 years, let alone 500, is ridiculous and no theological scholar would treat such a claim seriously without extra-ordinary circumstance. In particular, the British Museum Manuscript cited contains a (partial) version of the old testament and then a history of the people of Jerusalem. Which, completely unastonishingly, was updated as events happen.

      This manuscript is probably the best evidence that Jesus was an historical figure! But as evidence against carbon dating’s accuracy it is hopeless. 

      The modern equivalent of what you are saying is that The Wall Street Journal contains an article about the recovery from the Global Financial Crisis in 2010. The Wall Street Journal has been around since 1889. Therefore either we knew about the GFC in 1889 or the calendar is wrong.

      The Septuagent Old Testaments in the British Mueseums

    • Dave Sag says:

      03:42pm | 27/03/10

      Peter said “There is no proof, like there is ZERO proof about evolution..”

      Peter there may be zero proof about evolution but there is also zero evidence that the theory of evolution is wrong.  Science is not about proofs, that’s for maths.  Science is about theories that explain the observed facts and then trying hard to disprove them.  So far not a single observation or experiment has cast any doubt on evolution.  Predictions made based on the theory of evolution have all been shown to happen.  Even by simulating evolutionary systems one gets exactly the results one would expect.  That’s why genetic algorithms work.  Indeed there is a whole field of evolutionary computation.

    • Craigles says:

      07:38pm | 26/03/10

      Simon, are you referring to Codex Siaiticus, which is real and highlights the alterations made between its writing and the KJV about 1,000 yrs later.

      For example, Mark 16 finishes at 8 ie. omitting the 12 verses on the appearance of the resurrected Christ – and leaving the disciples exiting in fear; Christ’s supposed words about his executioners from the cross - “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” - are also absent from Codex Sinaiticus.

      Also, it has been shown 3-4 separate scribes copied the work, and five correctors emended portions, one of them contemporaneous with the original scribes, the others dating to the sixth and seventh centuries.  A paleographical study at the British Museum in 1938 found that the text had undergone several corrections. The first corrections were done by several scribes before the manuscript left the scriptorium. In the sixth or seventh century many alterations were made ....

    • iansand says:

      05:40pm | 26/03/10

      If someone knows of a prophecy, as Jesus knew about the prophesces elating to the crucifixion, sets out to fulfil them are they still prophecies?

      Do bears fall over in the woods?

    • monkeytypist says:

      03:30pm | 26/03/10

      And I believe that you still haven’t established why the references in (to take just one example) the Book of Daniel don’t map unambiguously onto any given event - that there are multiple interpretations about each one and not a single reference is beyond dispute.  Not to mention Revelations! Sloppy work by God, to keep us all guessing like that!  And you still haven’t shown the numerous times the Bible claims an event took place without any supporting (archeological, external textual etc.) evidence whatsoever - like the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan.

    • Simon Ingram says:

      02:34pm | 26/03/10

      The events I referred to were the Greek, Selucid and Ptolomic Empire conquests and invasions, the Maccabean Revolt and of course 32 AD refers to all of the incredibly detailed descriptions of Jesus’ triumphal entry, betrayal, arrest, crucifixion, burial and resurrection that were all detailed in books written in 7th, 6th and 5th Centuries BC.

      These are just “someone’s wild imagination” how??

      I believe my point still stands.

    • Peter says:

      02:15pm | 26/03/10

      Yes proud infidel, but any accurate carbon dating of the shroud was poluted due to the fact that it had been through a fire. Having said that, i do not necessarily believe the shroud is what some scholars claim it to be. There is no proof, like there is ZERO proof about evolution..

    • Agnostic Atheist says:

      01:56pm | 26/03/10

      Believe what you read Simon?You can quite easily go back through Egyption,Greek writings and others as well!

    • Proud Infidel says:

      01:03pm | 26/03/10

      Simon, this sounds a little like the Shroud of Turin controversy. In 1988 a radiocarbon dating test was performed on small samples of the shroud, concluding that they date from the Middle Ages, between 1260 CE and 1390 CE. As all ways there is debate over the reliability of the test. So I would say no evidence yet.

    • monkeytypist says:

      12:45pm | 26/03/10

      Sorry Simon, but all of those rely on highly subjective interpretations of what the actual references were.  There’s still vigourous disagreement whether specific passages in the Gospels were referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, or to the end of the world. And there is, to put it charitably, no historical evidence for the story of Exodus as described.  Not to mention the extremely suspect narrative of the Two Kingdoms period.

    • KH says:

      12:36pm | 26/03/10

      I can see several problems with your ‘evidence’, but the main one is that history is written by human beings.  How do you know that in 200BC, 160BC, 32AD and 70AD and so on, someone just didn’t write or just make up something that fit a story that was already around to make it appear like a prophecy?  Are there independent alternate sources?

      What exactly is the original wording? It could also be one of those ‘nostradamus’ things, where the language is so obtuse that you can make any interpretation.  Maybe the dating is wrong - or is a range that is actually quite large.  There is (ahem) probably more I could say…............
      Your ‘evidence’ is starting to look a little flimsy.

    • J says:

      12:14pm | 26/03/10

      The dating might be accurate, but are the texts fact, or just someone’s wild imagination?

      You don’t know!

      grin

    • Andy says:

      11:05am | 26/03/10

      What a stupid response from the many posters who claim that because “you can’t disprove something exists” that credence should be given to the possibility that it does. . Can anyone definitively prove that unicorns or fairies,  do not exist? No? By stating that something probably does not exist, IN NO WAY supports a statment or theory that “it possibly does”. In fact, if you read Dawkins further the “probably” is clarified by another statment that “the probability of the existence of god is so small, as to be regarded as impossible”, or similar. At least Dawkins, et al are being intellectually honest with the use of “probably” in the slogan

      And there is NO evidence for the existence of god, none. If there was, faith would not be required. If you are going to asset something, then provide evidence. Atheism would not exist without the assertion that there IS a god been made first. Therefore, atheism can never be regarded as making a posititive assertion requiring proof. It is ALWAYS a rejection of the first assertion tthat god does exist assertion, made without proof.

    • Andy says:

      09:24pm | 26/03/10

      H, you obviously did not understand the argument. “but consider, at one time could anyone prove the microscopic organism exist?”. At no time in my original post was I referring TO or FOR the existence of anything. Therefore your response in relation to my original post does not make sense. The point is, if you are going to assert that something DOES exist (as in your example of microscopic organisms, planets etc), then that assertion requires some evidentiary basis. It would not be wrong for people to respond with “I don’t believe there are planets, show me some evidence (as in my example of fairies. unicorns NOT existing)

      Not recognising the difference between asserting something does exist, or that something does not exist is where your own argument falls apart. To assert something does NOT exist first requires someone proposing that it does/may exist. I am sure no-one just said out of the blue “Oh, you know what, I don’t think there are microscopic organisms”, without the assertion/theory of their existence being put forward first.  Why is God the only thing the same reasoning doesn’‘t apply to?

    • Chris L says:

      08:09pm | 26/03/10

      H, I’m trying to follow. You accept the possibility of unicorns is equal to the possibility of god? If so, I fully agree. Personally (and in all honesty) I also hold out for the possibility of ghosts, werewolves and vampires.

    • H of SA says:

      01:54pm | 26/03/10

      Your argument falls apart early. You said, “Can anyone deifnatively prove that unicorns or fairies, do not exist” - but consider, at one time could anyone prove the microscopic organism exist? Or electrons? Or other planets in the solar system? Or the new species living very deep underwater that have only been proven to exist in the last few months?

      There are many unobservable phenomena that do exist. So to consider it foolish to not give credence to the possibility of their existance is well ....wrong. Your post proves exacty what the author of this article has pointed out about atheist arguments, they aren’t very persuasive.

    • J says:

      10:47am | 26/03/10

      I believed in God when I was a kid.  Prayed a lot too.  I’ve changed my mind as I got older, but that’s because I felt too much pressure with religion - once I rejected it, I felt much better.

      And we do need religion, I think - even if it just keeps people who fear spiritual accountability in check.  The ol’ chestnut of “if there is no God, why be a good person?” has been trotted out here before.

      But I see your point - I agree with Dawkins when he said it’s important to teach children about religion for tolerance purposes, but to avoid indoctrination.  It makes far more sense to provide them with the reference material and let them make up their own mind.

    • J says:

      12:45pm | 26/03/10

      Weird, this was supposed to be in response to Harquebus…

    • xen yasai says:

      10:36am | 26/03/10

      You say:
      “Let’s start by applying reason to the first flank of the scale, religion: “I believe God exists”. Calling for religious people to produce evidence of their belief is by very nature a logically absurd proposition.”

      Actually by claiming something you yourself are responsible for presenting the evidence and have the burden of proof hanging over your.

      If I as a scientist claim I have the cure for HIV, is it logically absurd to demand I prove that I am speaking the truth?

      You write:
      “Religion doesn’t require evidence, it has faith. By definition, faith negates the need to produce tangible evidence, never claims to possess tangible evidence, and therefore stands up to reason.”

      So it is okay to make a claim and back it up by saying you have faith?
      I have faith that I have a cure for HIV.

      What seems more common is when it comes to religion in general, logic has been thrown out with evidence and become seen as something absurd to the believers.

      Again you show the arrogance of believers. You are so certain in your belief in your doctrine, but are unable to produce any evidence for it. Oh wait, as long it is a religion you do not need evidence; only if you deny the truth of the religion of course.

      The irony with most debates with Christians is that they are so busy trying to convince other about their fragile faith so they can still be convinced themselves. Sadly, when they run out of logical arguments and can not produce any facts they resort to ad hominem attacks.

    • Harquebus says:

      10:28am | 26/03/10

      Three year olds are programmed to believe anything they are told. Don’t teach religion to kids then see how many adults take it up.

    • AliceC says:

      10:42am | 26/03/10

      I agree! Let them decide once they’re grown into a mature adult.

    • Grant says:

      10:01am | 26/03/10

      Chris, totally awesome…!!! 

      As you referred to my god in your piece, the flying spaghetti monster, I feel as though I should speak about him and his wonderfulness.

      Like other religions, no one can ‘probably’ disprove his noodly existence.  So we at the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster declare that it was in fact him who created the universe and like other gods is also invisible, can manipulate time and space and pass through matter with ease.

      Everyone should pray for his noodly appendage to bless them with his creamy sauce and take holy communion of his righteous meatballs of redemption. 

      He is indeed a kind and giving god.

      Ramen…

      http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

    • Proud Infidel says:

      12:12pm | 26/03/10

      Grant, I like this god that speak of, having looked at all the others I think I can have faith in his noodly appendage.

    • Agnostic Athiest says:

      10:03am | 26/03/10

      Quote “When you understand why you dismiss all Gods other than your own,you will understand why I dismiss yours”.

    • iansand says:

      09:57am | 26/03/10

      It is possible to reconcile modern science and the existence of God. 

      6,000 odd years ago God, for whatever reason, created us as infinitely curious, highly resourceful and ingenious.  My guess is that he, she or it regrets this now for reasons that will become apparent later in this post, but I digress.  For the first 5,000 years or so everything was pretty relaxed in God’s heaven and all was right with the world.  Then we started discovering things at an ever increasing rate, and God had to keep us busy, so he she or it started creating extra levels of complexity to amuse us.  As we discovered more and more things about the extra levels of complexity he, she or it felt obliged to keep creating more and more complexity.  For the last century or two the poor omnipotent being has been flat chat doing stuff so we don’t run out of things to do.  Busier than the proverbial one armed paper hanger.

    • Grumbles says:

      01:04pm | 26/03/10

      The biggest point missed by all these theologists is the wording of the bible.

      In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

      There is no mention of the time between the beginning and the first day. I do not believe in Evolution, much of the evidence is based on the age of rocks…. which were there in the beginning. It’s the rest of the stuff that got put there 6000 - 10000 years ago.

    • David says:

      09:55am | 26/03/10

      Thanks for a measured blog (finally!) on matters of Dawkins and the religious debate. There were some things in there I wanted to uncontrollably rant about, but then I realised - you were trying to get across both sides of this oft-tossed coin. A good read.

    • Timmo says:

      09:49am | 26/03/10

      Alice, I’m glad that you have a brain to hurt. Go Go Braino, that’s what I think. Didn’t mean to hurt your brain there old bean but if you can get your brain around what I wrote above then maybe it won’t hurt any more. You must be very brainy indeedie. Good luck to your brain and I hope you don’t have much pain as it is of no gain to have a pain in your brain.

    • AliceC says:

      03:45pm | 26/03/10

      Thanks for the support guys! Yes, I do have a brain, and it was hurting, so therefore it exists.

      All this discussion reminds me of the Flat Earth Society. They believe the earth is flat, that they don’t have to prove it’s flat because it’s up to the ‘earth is round’ believers to prove otherwise, and the proof that is out there is a conspiracy!

      http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

      Giggles all round!

    • Paul Horn says:

      11:36am | 26/03/10

      I’m deeply impressed Timmo. Did you make that up yourself?? As old intellectual Arnie once said “Theres no gain for the brain without a bit of pain”. So’s I’d have to disagree with you there old bean. But your previous posts are impressive so well done. Lets toast the gain in Alices brain wherever it may be found or not. We need faith to believe Alice has a brain though she may argue that she posesses one as it is hurting!!!

    • Hayden says:

      09:45am | 26/03/10

      To mount the argument that ‘we have no proof that God does not exist’ boarders on hysterical. In that vein we have no proof the Tooth Fairy does not exist either. But there’s probably no Tooth Fairy. It’s just something somebody made up and has gained less of a cult following than Christianity.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      09:42am | 26/03/10

      Chris, at the first sentence you fall. Christmas is the Roman festival of Saturnalia renamed. Even the sit down meal with pointed hats and the giving of presents is Roman. Dates of the original festival run from the 17th to the 23rd of December. Gee what a surprise.

      I just don’t buy religion. All religions are just man made social clubs with out the proof of divine intervention. None can be true as we can only conceive the truth by empirical evident, emotions have a part to play, as reason is an emotion. Most on these divine interventions seem always happen to men alone in the same types of locations in the desert or up a mountain.

      As for your concern with the new religion of Atheism down worry we are a diverse bunch. I think Atheism role is promoting freethinking without the clutter of religious faith, and importantly to hold all religion to account of its many misdeeds. I am sure many people would agree with that.

      The great Epicurus 341 BCE summed it up best.

      “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? ?Then he is not omnipotent.?

      Is he able, but not willing? ?Then he is malevolent.

      Is he both able and willing?? Then whence cometh evil??

      Is he neither able nor willing??

      Then why call him God?”

    • KH says:

      09:38am | 26/03/10

      Why don’t I believe in religions?
      1. How convenient that women are largely vilified by religion, and have been ‘blamed’ for all these so called ‘sins’, and this has been the foundation of the excuse to treat us like crap for centuries.  This alone is enough evidence for me to know that religion is ‘man’ made, literally. 
      2. Why doesn’t everyone believe in the same thing? Why so many variations? Why so many interpretations?  Why not just have a so called ‘bible’ that just has clear, unequivocal statements, without contradictions? Why didn’t people always believe it? Humans were around for thousands of years - why didn’t they all believe it before? Shouldn’t you just be born knowing it?  Clearly that isn’t true.
      3. Why has religion required force to be spread? Conquests for example, how about some inquisitions? Some witch burnings?  How about some terrorist activity? Threats, torture, deliberately obscure and even secret rituals - the list goes on.  If it all so true and real, why do you need threats and intimidation? Why are these bad things in this world, whilst all the good stuff you promise is in some other world, that you have to die to go to?  Why do you have to brainwash children to perpetuate this nonsense?  Why all the secrecy? 
      4. Why does the bible not mention Australia? Or South America? Or dinosaurs?  Could it be because the people who wrote it just didn’t know about them? If this so called ‘god’ knows everything, why not just tell people?  Why was it nearly 2000 years before they found Australia?
      5. What happened to all the magical genes that don’t mutate, if there were only two people to start with? There is more than enough physical evidence that genetic mutation and the subsquent malformations will eventually kill off a group of humans that does not diversify its gene pool.  What kind of idiot would still believe that there were only two people to start with? And if they only had sons, who did they mate with?
      6. Why should I believe some fairy story about virgin mothers? Seriously?  They had IVF then?  So I should believe people who claim they saw Elvis in a supermarket in Cairns?  Tarot card readers? OJ Simpson? They seem equally sure of their belief, after all.
      7. Why are so many perverts attracted to the clergy?  In the past, these ‘popes’ had wives, and children.  They had lots of money and used it to pursue all kinds of debauchery, whilst preaching something different to everyone else.  Sounds a bit like the top level communists/nazis/insert name of regime here really - telling everyone else to be comrades, while they shopped in western stores and were free to travel, and enjoy all kinds of privileges.  Education was run largely by the church for centuries.  Only the privileged few learned latin - the vast majority couldn’t even understand the services, and thus relied on a few men to tell them what to do, OR ELSE….............

      I have so many more of these kinds of questions. I could go on, for days.  There isn’t anyone on this planet that will be able to convince me that religion is based in the world of reality.  It is about power, for a few men. It is about making people complacent, and accepting the status quo.  I mean seriously, it will be better after you are dead? Get off it.  Lets not even get started on the contradictions that are within religion.

    • DG says:

      02:28pm | 26/03/10

      Your point 5 is flawed. While God only made two people that he sent to the garden of eden there is no reason why other people could not have evolved. It would be consistent with later parts of Genesis where people go off and find partners to carry on the begetting. For starters Cain finds a wife (who bore Enoch) in the land of Nod after killing his brother (not Seth, the other brother, Abel). Seth also found a wife (who gave birth to Enos).

      Consider that the Bible is only intended to speak to those direct decendents of Adam and Eve (and only also those of Noah and his wife that were not wiped out in the flood), and only to those of the male line, down through Abraham and onwards. Then when we get to revelations and have the names of all people written in the book of life from the blood of a goat facing god - we can explain away all of the other people that are not descendants of Noah et al.

      Personally, I think it’s a load of nonsense, after all “there were giants in the earth in those days…” [Gen 6:4], and god says “...Behold, man is become as one of us…..” (which means that there must have been more than one god, and that Man is also Godlike)..... the whole things is just nonsense. Don’t get me started on Job, Deuteronomy, Numbers, Corinthians or any of the 4 gospel.

      Can one person explain to me just how long Noah’s flood was. How long did the water cover the land?

    • BBB says:

      11:29am | 26/03/10

      Your point 4 - Australia doesn’t get a mention in the Bible as the story about Tidilick the frog might be in conflict with some biblical stories.  As for dinosaurs, do you think T-Rex would get a spot upstairs?  The mind boggles.

    • Timmo says:

      09:33am | 26/03/10

      Some of the commenters are really good aren’t they. These articles sure get some good ideas put forth. But maybe the answer is, it’s all about things that go ping, as Monty Python says. Go Go Monty.

    • J says:

      09:53am | 26/03/10

      *sigh*, I love love love Monty Python.  Graham Chapman - a talent gone too soon!

    • Timmo says:

      09:34am | 26/03/10

      Alice, I’m glad that you have a brain to hurt. Go Go Braino, that’s what I think. Didn’t mean to hurt your brain there old bean but if you can get your brain around what I wrote above then maybe it won’t hurt any more. You must be very brainy indeedie. Good luck to your brain and I hope you don’t have much pain as it is of no gain to have a pain in your brain. You know what I’m sayn.

    • AliceC says:

      10:41am | 26/03/10

      Cheers Timmo!!! smile

    • e1 says:

      09:34am | 26/03/10

      I actually feel sorry for Richard Dawkins.  He’s painted himself into a corner.  He’s arguing, sorry, proselytising, the non-existance of God, but like everyone else in the world, when a crisis comes, he will drop to his knees and pray for a favourable outcome.  We’re hard-wired to be spiritual, whether we like to admit it or not.  He must be exhausted!  And one day he is going to be very embarrassed.  Still, it’s all entertaining, if completely unproductive.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:50pm | 26/03/10

      “when a crisis comes, he will drop to his knees and pray for a favourable outcome”
      When all else fails, just be condescending, eh?

      We atheists - in foxholes or out - don’t drop to our knees and pray for a solution.  We think of one.

    • dancan says:

      09:24am | 26/03/10

      I’ll state right now that I’m agnostic in my beliefs.  Although I probably lean toward atheist as I follow and believe science but at the same time I can’t discount God because I don’t understand God and I doubt anyone can understand God.

      I’ll make points as to why it’s impossible to understand God if it exists.

      If god created the universe then God exists outside of time because time didn’t exist till the universe was created.
      If god exists then it sits outside of time but it also experienced all the moments of time simultaneously once the universe came into existence.
      If god exists then it not only sits inside and outside of time but it also exists at all points of the universe simultaneously.
      If god exists then it can create matter from pure energy, and revert matter back to pure energy.

      You have to think what it means to follow those points above.  The moment you try and label any part of God’s existence you’ve already missed the target.

      The flip side is that if god doesn’t exist then we are just a cosmic anomaly.  In the infinity of the universe expanding and collapsing this time the numbers lined up for us and we came into existence.  The human race as we know it may never has existed previously and may never exist again.

    • monkeytypist says:

      09:22am | 26/03/10

      Saying “God’s existence is extraodinarily improbable” is a good basis for scientific reasoning.  You’re quite right that we can’t be completely, 100% certain - but neither can we be completely certain that the sun isn’t pulled by Apollo’s chariot either.  The standard should be “enough evidence to satisfy a disinterested person”, on which grounds it’s extremely difficult to prove that God, or for that matter, Zeus or Osiris, exist.

    • AliceC says:

      08:48am | 26/03/10

      My brain hurts….

    • Timmo says:

      08:38am | 26/03/10

      Thanks J for your nice comment and JJJ I am not trying to define anything for others. It was just a point I was making and J it is as you say the difference between Spirituality and Religion. What we see outside of ourselves is the phenomenal world, the world as a reflection of the Mind the world of forms. The Human Mind is capable of creating objects and symbols. The mind is symbolic by nature, so in the east symbols have always been used to unlock the secrets of Mind related to Gods and Devils, or good and evil tendencies. Yet the mind of individuals remains superstitious and out of that many beliefs came about. Dualism, up and down, to and fro. clockwise anti-clockwise, coming going etc. How can one find any balance while caught up constantly in those things. Yet we know there is a balanced point. All the things we create in life are built to have balance coming from a strong foundation to support. Such as the Buildings, the Motor that drives the car the things we enjoy, but it is within man that the problem of imbalance remains and this is why the world is always it trouble with wars etc. Man is not happy in himself but knows happiness is there and still strives on in the hope of finding it.,That’s what we do isn’t it?. We have to be truthful at least with ourselves.

      The laws of cause and effect create time space and object. The mind has degrees of attraction or repulsion in regard to the objects and other things that surround it. It essential nature is pure but it is not seen in this way as it is alike to the clean mirror covered by dust. It has layers also such as subconscious, unconscious and also a superconscious aspect. The problems in Mankind has always and will always be in the supression of the Mind Itself. As we all know sometimes the Mind sees the world as a great place and at other times as not so great. As the world is dualistic and is constantly moving and changing the mind itself also moves and changes with the currents of the world. But yet the Mind can also become one pointed and find a state of peace, balance and harmony which is said to be the true state. All of us believe in the true state and strive to attain harmony and balance by normally creating things around us to bring this about, but still it moves out again and balance is not found but we keep trying and eventually by trying we will find it. Maybe then we will find the Godhead beyond the balanced state, interconnected with all existence but independent as Master of it’s own nature. This is part of my feelings on the subject anyway.

      I feel that higher thoughts are definately necessary to find the higher state of being which is our birthright but I have found in my life that the direction to go is different. Instead of looking outside for Gods maybe we should look within ourselves and clean the dust off our Mirrors and then hopefully all will be revealed. I hope so anyway.

    • Lee from WA says:

      08:36am | 26/03/10

      The idea that faith = belief without proof maybe true for some religions but for Christianity is total nonsense. When the Bible talks of faith, it speaks of trust. You have faith in the chair you sit in that it’ll hold up under your weight. In the view of the Bible, your trust is only as useful as the object you place your trust in. For example, God mocks the idols of other gods for being unable to speak or do anything because they’re just wooden objects.

      Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Jesus didn’t actually rise from the dead then our faith in him is pointless. Christianity is a historic faith - that is, it points to a real person in a real period of time and says this person is the object of your trust. If he’s the goods then your trust is worthwhile; if he isn’t, then your trust is pointless. The historic evidence for Jesus can be analysed like any other historic figure.

      People should really drop all this nonsense about faith = belief without reason, at least about Christianity.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      08:55am | 26/03/10

      Lee, Buddhism and Islam also speak of real people in time periods.

      The historic evidence for Jesus is minimal at best (virtually negligible if you discount Christian sources), the historical evidence for his rising from the dead is non-existent. Maybe Paul had a pretty good point.

    • Phil Kyson says:

      08:33am | 26/03/10

      Get over your fear of death and do the study. Science has exposed any god produced by the human imagination thus far as impotent not omnipotent and false. Theists need to get used to the fact that their god is in their mind and it’s imaginary.
      The greatest threat to the survival of the human race is this imagined friend who supposedly is going to come back from who knows where and save us all, good and bad a like, depending on who you wish to believe.
      I just hope that evolution works it’s stuff quick enough so that the human race can overcome this psychosis on mass and quickly.
      I fear though that at some time in the future if another species evolves to the point of self awareness and learns the use of tools.  That they’ll find evidence of a past species of hominids that took itself out of the gene pool on mass thus winning the first Darwin Award for a whole species to do so over a imaginary friend.
      Let’s hope that we leave enough evidence behind for that next species if it evolves to the point where it can wipe itself out, not to do so over an imaginary friend and the ideology the accompanies it.

    • H of SA says:

      01:48pm | 26/03/10

      Phil Kyson, you said “Sciend has exposed any god produced by the human imagination thus far as impotent not omnipotent and false”

      I think you just exposed yourself as knowing very little about science. I don’t either the atheist or theist scientist can take you seriously after that statement.

    • the apologist says:

      11:01am | 26/03/10

      “not omnipotent and false. Theists need to get used to the fact that their god is in their mind and it’s imaginary.”

      Is He ‘not…false’ or is He ‘imaginary’? wink
      But seriously, condemning theists that their God is imaginary is pointless. I might just as well say: your belief in your dog is imaginary.You would say, no here it is, i’ve got proof. Attacking the ideas is the same as attacking the evidence in effect, and you can’t say God doesn’t exist cause you can’t prove it.
      Anyway, you’ll meet God one day, perhaps you’ll be able to ask Him all these questions - I don’t think that it will cross your mind at the time though…

    • Coxie says:

      08:22am | 26/03/10

      Dog saw I was goD; so there’s a possibility from the infinitesimal probability God saw I was doG.

    • Sean says:

      08:17am | 26/03/10

      Well written article.

      Atheists need a better argument, the ‘there is no evidence for God’ argument is a weak one. Unless you believe we are at the sum of all human knowledge now the fact that something cannot be proven at this point in time does not mean it is not true.

      Obvious examples - at one stage we could not prove that the earth was round or that the earth revolved around the sun.

      The separate question is whether a ‘Christian god’ is better than any of the other god/s that have come before…I don’t know. I think they are all humanity’s attempt to explain something greater than us

      On Dawkins scale I’m probably a 2.5, I don’t believe it was a ‘stroke of luck’ we exist and I’m arrogant enough to hope that my little uniqueness is going to go for long than 75 years or so. When I die if I’m wrong, it won’t matter.

    • Sean says:

      11:15am | 26/03/10

      Astrosodi,
      I must admit I used those examples deliberately as a wind up.
      I agree that science can also disprove arguments, my point is that at this stage saying that science can’t prove that God(s) exist therefore it doesn’t, is not the same as saying God(s) don’t exist.

      The reason I’m a 2.5 on the Dawkins scale not a 1 is because whilst I believe I’m keeping an open mind about it

    • Astrosodi says:

      09:34am | 26/03/10

      Hey Sean—but also be careful to appreciate there are things science has proven to be false that have been contrary to church teachings and based on faith. The Earth as centre of the universe is one such perspective.

      It is the central issue that regardless of what ‘evidence’ or ‘anti-evidence’ one side has, the goal posts shift as we gain more knowledge. So you prove that the Earth isn’t the cnetre of our universe; perhaps God made it that way—disprove that… Believers will believe, and disbelievers will not.

      Even those with faith use that faith to dismiss the faith of others, that’s why there are so many ‘false gods’, no? Becasue surely believers don;t have ‘proof’ that other religions’ gods don’t exist?

    • BBB says:

      08:15am | 26/03/10

      Hmmm, if God created the Earth, he did not do a very good job.  This plate techonics business has really caused some problems.  Ask the people in Haiti.  I think someone should call the big G up and ask him to do a warranty job on our planet and suggest that next time he (or she?) not rest and have a few beers and a BBQ on the 7th day.  Am I probably right or is this argument not good enough for the big G.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      03:59pm | 27/03/10

      Ever notice that the best energy sources we have found on this planet to date are also the most polluting. How’s that for “intelligent design”. And don’t get me started on the appendix - a random self destruct feature, just what every good design has.

    • the apologist says:

      09:34am | 26/03/10

      He did create the earth. But we’ve done a grand job of stuffing it up…

    • Phil says:

      08:08am | 26/03/10

      I’m not waiting for the afterlife to start enjoying myself, and loving people and making friends.

      If you live your life like this is the only one there is - you’ll probably do all right.

    • H of SA says:

      01:46pm | 26/03/10

      Do you place your faith in this? smile

    • Matt Dee says:

      08:04am | 26/03/10

      Did you hear about the man who was an atheist, an insomniac and dyslexic. He’d lay awake all night wondering if there really was a Dog.

    • the apologist says:

      07:58am | 26/03/10

      I knew you were intelligent Chris smile (if you remember my comments on your last article…) A thought provoking, stimulating and constructive analysis. Obviously I disagree with your analysis, but that’s another matter.

    • Lorien says:

      07:50am | 26/03/10

      The truth is, the majority of us would rather believe there isn’t a god so we can avoid the mob mentality of of organised religion. Where we can be friends with people who are of different faith than us.

      So we can have the milk before buying the cow, just in case we’re lactose intolerant. So that we’re not giving 10% of our income on a Sunday to claim our place in the ‘next life’. So we can kiss girls and boys and both and be in love with whomever we find to be attractive and worthy, regardless of gender.

      Dawkins: “Children really ought not be spoken of as a Catholic child or a Muslim child. They ought to be allowed to grow until they’re old enough to decide for themselves what their beliefs about the cosmos are.”

      You can’t help but think of him as Father Christmas when he gifts people with words like those.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:20am | 29/03/10

      I am afraid that you are wrong. Most people would rather believe in a god. I can tell you why, if your an atheist think about your life after death.

      It is utterly meaningless and unbelievably depressing. Most people are happy to believe in a few stupid myths to create meaning in thier life. Unfortunately I am not one. Best not to think about it smile

    • Warren says:

      07:48am | 26/03/10

      I think the point often missed is this:

      There is no proof whatsoever that any of the Gods worshipped by humanity are real.

      While it may be impossible to disprove the existance of any being of a higher power, it is possible to disprove the existance of the Gods that humans believe in, because they all came to earth at some point.

      The believes often claim that simply confuse two things:

      1) It is impossible to 100% disprove the existance of A God

      2) It is impossible to 100% disprove the existance of MY God

      That is not the case, your God has been disproved. No God has ever visited earth, all of your Gods (in some form or other) have visited earth and have told you something about the universe.

      Those things have been disproven, YOUR God does not exist. A god MAY exist, but your God does not.

    • Chris L says:

      07:58pm | 26/03/10

      On the other hand, holy scriptures can be proven false… or at least plagurised. The deluge and ensuing flood is an old legend used by the Egyptians, Babylonians and Sumerians. While this doesn’t disprove the flood itself (although archeological evidence is yet to be proffered) it does show that the flood was not the work of the monotheistic god. Jesus is almost a carbon copy of Horus and Vishnu combined (both polytheistic deities).

      In the end, there may be some force or entity (or multiples thereof) that caused our reality to be. I’m happy to call that god (or perhaps Kali) but I’m confidant that I won’t burn for all eternity if I don’t drop to my knees and worship it.

    • Grumbles says:

      12:58pm | 26/03/10

      Your reasoning is flawed. Back to the drawing board. Nothing has been proven to not exist.

    • James in Footscray says:

      07:39am | 26/03/10

      Chris Deal - I’m not sure about the lottery analogy.

      We know empirically someone can win Tatts. We’ve seen it happen, and we know there are rules that ensure some people win money. So sure, there is indeed a very slight possibility my ticket can win. Only a crazy person (or a liar, to quote your term) would be a ‘Tattslotto atheist’.

      But we’ve never seen this God. So do we entertain any fanciful thought as ‘possible’? Do we say, ‘Well, actually, Father Christmas is possible’? If I tell you I believe the world is controlled by a frog, do you also put that on the ‘possible’ list?

      Cheers

    • AliceC says:

      09:02am | 29/03/10

      I sure have:

      Acts 14:11

      11And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian,(A) “The frogs have come down to us in the likeness of men!”

      LMAO!

    • James in Footscray says:

      07:56pm | 26/03/10

      Haha AliceC, you obviously haven’t read the Frog New Testament!

      Sorry 6c legs, that was a low blow of mine. Of course Santa exists.

    • 6c legs says:

      11:29am | 26/03/10

      “Well, actually, Father Christmas is possible?...”

      Hey! I KNOW Father Christmas is true - *I* am FC every 25th December!
      (and if a woman whose not keen on other peoples kids dressed in a stinking hot red suit mit fake beard isn’t proof enough of my existence, i dunno what is)
      So lay off saying Santa aint true.

    • AliceC says:

      08:33am | 26/03/10

      ‘And he is a vengeful Frog’....

      LOL!!

    • Melissa says:

      07:38am | 26/03/10

      You say that we might as well hedge our bets, live and let live and all that - but the point Dawkins is making is that organised religeon can be fanatical and that violence and social injustices carried out in its name must be stopped. The belief in God is idiocy - I suffer from bi-polar and am seen as a “liability” yet my friend who believes there is a magical man in the sky who directs her every move is given the sanity stamp of approval. The world is mad as long as acts can be carried out in the name of one’s imaginary friend and the rest of the world nods and smiles.

    • AliceC says:

      08:47am | 29/03/10

      @Dunx, you’re right! I’m gonna start my book today and call it ‘The Bable” (copyright 2010)..... LOL!

    • Dunx says:

      04:50pm | 26/03/10

      @Alice C: I dunno - it worked for the Mormons.

    • AliceC says:

      08:36am | 26/03/10

      I agree. I don’t have a problem with faith, it’s the people who carry out acts of violence ‘in the name of God’ which bothers me.

      If I wrote a book, and told people to live by it ,as God had spoken to me, I would be thrown into the loony bin!

    • Seano says:

      07:39am | 26/03/10

      Personally I’m agnostic because noone can prove to me either way the existence of God. But a belief in God seems to me a complete waste of time because there is no evidence.

      So why waste your time in following a particular god or religion? They’re all made up.

    • Crash says:

      09:08pm | 28/03/10

      @ H of SA

      Sorry, but absolutely not.  The burden of proof rests on the person who asserts that something IS the case,  This part of Logic is an integral part of our legal system.

    • Seano says:

      03:08pm | 26/03/10

      @Ladybuglauren: I know what you’re saying but my way of looking at is that God either exists or or doesn’t exist. Both theists and atheist are trying to tell you the know the answer but neither side can provide any proof what so ever.

      All I’m really saying is that I’m open to proof from either side. But I also make the distinction between God and religion. Religion is a man made construct that I think we can largely do without in these enlightened times.

      So I’m not hedging my bets as it were I’m just saying that I’m open to proof.

    • H of SA says:

      01:57pm | 26/03/10

      ladybuglauren,

      The burden of proof lays with the person trying to do the convincing. When an atheist is trying to convince you there is no God - the burden of proof lays with them, otherwise they are well….unconvincing

    • ladybuglauren says:

      01:20pm | 26/03/10

      I’m not trying to be facetious here, but I’m not entirely sure about the idea of being agnostic because nobody can prove ‘either way’ about god.  I kind of assumed the burden was always on people to prove things DID exist. 

      I for one have seen no empirical evidence definatively disputing the existence of unicorns, the loch ness monster or the Roswell UFO.  That withstanding, I can say with 100% conviction that I do not believe that these things exist, and I think a lot of people would agree with me.

      I don’t really think, then, that the logic that one can’t prove something doesn’t exist mandates that you allow for the possibility that it does.

      BTW Seano I’m not disagreeing with you per se, your line of reasoning just got me thinking….

    • Henrietta says:

      07:16am | 26/03/10

      I come from a Christian background, and I am an unbeliver. There are many many Gods to many different people. And millions worldwide worship them daily, one part of me says “oh what a waste of a life, worshiping a myth”, but another part of me say “well at least they have something to believe in “
      We will never know the real answer till after death and if I am right , it won’t matter because we won’t know a thing about it.

    • T.Chong says:

      07:11am | 26/03/10

      “Proof denies faith” and without faith most dieties are found wanting.

    • Gerard says:

      07:09am | 26/03/10

      Christmas today has less to do with Jesus and more to do with marketing and making cash. Also, its impossible to prove a negative. Simply saying “Hey, you say God doesn’t exist, prove it!” is like saying “Prove that reindeer cant fly!” The only way that you could do that is if you were to talk a very large sample of reindeer, or in fact EVERY reindeer on Earth and push them off a tall building in the hope that at least one of them will fly. You could push a million of them off and each one of them falls to their death. Does that prove that reindeer can’t fly? No. It just means that the million you have pushed off can’t or did not want to fly. You can’t prove that something doesn’t exist, only the probability that something doesn’t exist.

    • Tone says:

      01:22pm | 29/03/10

      Adam, they don’t take a plane on a real flight, with real passengers, and deliberately crash it; just like it would be silly to push a sample of reindeer off a cliff - or all reindeer as Robert seems to want to do.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:13am | 29/03/10

      @ Tone - Actually they do test that. Its part of the safety protocol for al new aircraft designs testing the impact and survivability of a crash.

    • Tone says:

      11:33am | 27/03/10

      Robert, we don’t go testing that 747s can crash killing all on board, do we?

    • Robert Smissen of Rural SA says:

      10:59pm | 26/03/10

      Tone are you Afraid to test your “unproven theory” in case despite your strong “faith” that you are right, you are worried you just might be wrong. How do you think science works, by only testing the things you"think” are true? I don’t think so! !

    • Tone says:

      03:32pm | 26/03/10

      Robert - No reindeer are designed to fly; no reindeer have ever flown.  Testing is illogical.

    • Robert Smissen of Rural SA says:

      11:44am | 26/03/10

      Tone until you have tested your premise on ALL the reindeer you can’t say it is proven.

    • Mavis says:

      09:24am | 26/03/10

      Gerard, what you are proposing to do with those poor defenceless reindeers is very cruel. You should be ashamed.

    • Astrosodi says:

      09:28am | 26/03/10

      Hey Tone and Gavin—Sure Gerard’s example is inelegant, but his point is that you can’t prove the non-existance of something, from a scientific certainty perspective. That’s the essence of this debate, and why it’s not one that can be answered.

      Humans being’s are capable of comprehending things they can’t see, feel, or otherwise physically sense, therefore intellectually we can understand that although we can’t scientifically ‘prove’ something right here and now, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

      Arguing about faith and humans’ ability to believe without evidence is part of the limitation on the science of proving the non-existence of something. Evidence is a positive aspect. If something doesn’t exist, there’s no evidence of it. But that only is a statement saying that we have not found any evidence to date.

      Did witchery trials disprove the existance of witches? No. Can science prove God doesn’t exist? Unlikely. Even if they can prove the creation of the Earth was not Godly, how can science prove that those elements weren’t created by God?

      100% theists will believe regardless of atheists ‘anti-evidence’, and 100% atheists will disbelieve regardless of theists ‘evidence’. It’s what you do with those beliefs (either way) and how you impact others lives that’s important.

    • gavin says:

      08:51am | 26/03/10

      because they have legs instead of wings.

    • Tone says:

      07:31am | 26/03/10

      We know reindeer can’t fly, though.  From reasoning about their morphology, and from observation of them.  It would be unethical to push any off a building.  Why bother with this red-herring?

      Gods are a human description.  The ongoing lack of evidence increases their unlikelihood.

    • Bubba Ray says:

      07:02am | 26/03/10

      He who advances the proposition provides the evidence for the proposition.

      There is no evidence for God.

      Without such evidence the proposition need not be seriously considered.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      07:18pm | 26/03/10

      Hey apologist - the remarkable claim of such evidence for Jesus do you have a source for that at all ?

    • Chris L says:

      06:06pm | 26/03/10

      Also, Peter, you keep simplifying evolution to say we were once fish. The idea (backed up with fossil evidence, geology, biology and a massive amount of rigorous testing) is that life began as single cell micro-organisms that, over the course of billions of years, gradually developed, bit by bit, into the life we have today.

      I get that you want to ridicule evolution the way religion is often ridiculed, but your ridicule is easily countered and shown to be baseless.

      Besides, you don’t have to disprove evolution. Many theists believe it was god’s method for crafting life as it is. (I don’t, but I’m not a theist.)

    • Chris L says:

      05:52pm | 26/03/10

      Peter, we have had civil discussion before so I don’t want to be antagonistic, but please don’t misrepresent Einstein and Hawkings.

      “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.” (Albert Einstein)

      He’s saying that his idea of god is the universe, which is all fine and dandy. To be honest I wouldn’t mind if all the great scientists were fundamentalist christians or whatever, if I remain free of religious constrictions. (yes internet filter/abortion/euthenasia/nudity/cannibus laws, I’m talking to you!)

    • Steely Dan says:

      04:29pm | 26/03/10

      @Robert Smissen
      Craigles is correct - even most Christian scholars agree that the Jesus passage is a later addition. Two main reasons:
      1) Josephus wasn’t a contemporary of Jesus - he could only have heard about a Jesus person second-hand.
      2) The passage claims that Jesus was the ‘Christ’ (messiah) - which is a strange thing for Josephus to claim as he was at the time a Jew, and did not convert to Christianity.

    • Craigles says:

      03:24pm | 26/03/10

      Robert Smissen- the consensus is that in Josephus’ writings, most of the references to Jesus are fraudulent additions; and, Origen says Josephus only refers to “the Christus” - not necessarily Jesus.

    • Peter says:

      02:02pm | 26/03/10

      Certainly Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawkins can not comprehend how the universe could have been created without the existence of God. As for these other clown scientists running around with no proof calling everyone stupid for not believing God, I say to them greater minds than you disagree. These smart people like Dawkins prefer to think they were once fish, because to them that makes more sense than the existence of God…

    • the apologist says:

      01:55pm | 26/03/10

      @Joe:
      How did I find that out? Well, if you take the Christian premise of who God is, it is a logical conclusion. I) He created everything.  II) He exists outside of creation. Therefore - how can you expect to find Him by empirical process? All that empirical process can do is examine existing phenomena in the known universe. God does not fall into this category. No one ‘told me I can’t’ it’s just a logical conclusion based upon a given premise.

    • H of SA says:

      01:35pm | 26/03/10

      Yup, anyone who denies the existance of a historical Jesus stands far outside mainstream history

    • Joe says:

      01:07pm | 26/03/10

      Geez, bloody handy that he isnt subject to our scrutiny. But hang on, how did you find that out? Did someone capable of lying tell you that? Apart from God of course, that is everyone. So, how can you be 100% that the bloke who told that wasn’t telling furfies?

    • Robert Smissen of Rural SA says:

      11:35am | 26/03/10

      Sorry Austin 3:16 Josephus the Roman historian of Christ’s time mentions Jesus many times in his writings. He was a pagan/non Christian. Just because your reading is incomplete, doesn’t make your theory true

    • the apologist says:

      10:38am | 26/03/10

      Well, what I actually said was the impact that Jesus has had is observable evidence as a place to start. Christianity itself based upon who Jesus is - as a testament - was the point I was attempting to make as a starting point for your investigation.  But yeah, the historical Jesus too. There’s more evidence that Jesus existed than there is for Julius Caesar. No scholar would take you seriously if you tried to deny his existence.

      The Bible itself is nothing to be sneezed at in purely historical terms either. It’s got better historical credentials than pretty much all historical documents. Again, Christian and non-Christian historians alike hold this position.

      As for Constantine, depends what sort of ‘help’ you mean. As part of the propagation of Christianity itself, sure, he played a significant role. So did Luther, Calvin, Augustine, Huss, Tyndale, etc. This is consistent with my initial point on the ‘impact’ of Christianity. I’d want your clarification before I commented further on what you’re raising.

      Re. Muhammad – I wouldn’t claim that things necessarily need to be direct revelation from God to have a significant impact on human history. When Jesus says “I am the only way you can know God” I think the claims can then be looked at in themselves, and measured for consistency. I think that careful study of the Bible shows it to be incredible coherent and unified. Certainly more so than if it was merely authored by numerous authors over a space of thousands of years.
      Whereas Muhammed (for example) and Islamic religion is inherently self-contradictory. E.g. they claim to ‘accept’ Jesus, but the worldview and doctrine of Islam is vastly inconsistent with the Biblical Christian position.
      When you start investigating the claims and impacts of religions that claim to be revelational, you’ve got to get into what they’re saying and start assessing it for contradiction. If you think Christianity has got problems in terms of this kind of investigation, I’m more than happy to hear them.

      Cheers

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      09:57am | 26/03/10

      Jesus is an excellent example, is there any (non-biblical) evidence of him? No, not really.

      As to his impact you don’t think that Constantine perhaps helped out a little?

      The same arguments could also be made for Muhammad – surely the rise of Islam must attest to it being the true religion of God ?

    • the apologist says:

      09:26am | 26/03/10

      @Austin:
      I didn’t say He hides from His creation smile Merely that you can’t expect to empirically reach Him (which is the road athiests commonly demand).

      But you raise an important point - any knowledge or experience of Him must be revelational - or, in your language, He must intervene for us to know Him.

      He did this through Jesus Christ. Jesus (and the entire Bible) claimed this: “No one comes to the Father exept through me” and “I am the light of the world”.

      I think the sheer impact that a supposedly backwater, non-consequential, crucified Jew has had on human history is a pretty convincing place to start in terms of blatant evidence…
      No way He would have made any impact with God’s power working through it all. What was it that set Him apart in such a significant manner?? I am fully convinced in every way that His claims are true.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      08:47am | 26/03/10

      Only if the god in question hides from his creation.

      However most believers believe in an interventionist god that interacts with his creation. If that is the case then there ought to be some evidence of that interaction.

      The hiding god is a good ‘hypothesis’ though.

    • the apologist says:

      07:44am | 26/03/10

      If God created the evidence, and exists outside of it, why should one expect to be able to empirically prove Him?

      God is not subject to our scrutiny.

    • Sarah says:

      06:53am | 26/03/10

      From a marketing perspective the Dawkins athiests have a really lame slogan.  It merely preaches to the converted. What appeal does it have to everyone else in the world?  “Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.”?  Gee, thanks for that.  I bet Peter Singer has some ethical issues with it. Now THAT would be a debate worth seeing - pitting the ethical athiests versus the evangelical athiests.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:43pm | 26/03/10

      “It merely preaches to the converted.”
      Actually, that was the point. It wasn’t an argument against the existence of god/s, the campaign was to get inactive atheists to join atheist organisations.

      “I bet Peter Singer has some ethical issues with it.”
      You thought that was meant to be a summation of an atheistic philosophy? Why?

    • Lady Fong says:

      09:50am | 26/03/10

      “From a marketing perspective the Dawkins athiests”  have done very well indeed…how many copies of God Delusion did he sell?

    • Nick says:

      06:54am | 26/03/10

      I went and watched the debate between Cardinal Pell & Atheist Advocate Dan Barker.

      Dan Barker was arguing the how method using theories such as chance and multiple universes (something also unprovable)

      Cardinal Pell was arguing the how and why.

      If there are any atheists out there please share with me your “why” as Your intellectual advocate Mr Barker didn’t provide much towards that

    • Ron Saunders says:

      10:08am | 31/03/10

      Shannon I agree with you, I think the same way! as long as they don’t push it down my neck, they can beleive anything they like!

    • Shannon says:

      01:32pm | 27/03/10

      Why what?

      I don’t believe in any higher power, I have not seen any evidence of it.
      I went to church as a child, but stopped when I was 7, I told my parents I didn’t want to go anymore,so we never went back. Since I was 10 I have been reading books on religion, Atheism and pretty much anything I can get my hands on.

      I got to grow up with a lot of knowledge surrounding me, which is why I decided there is no need for a higher being in my life.

      I don’t feel so insecure that i need a god.
      Saying that though, I can understand why some people believe in god, I don’t judge people who believe, as long as you don’t push your beliefs into me.

    • J says:

      01:02pm | 26/03/10

      Paul Horn, thank you for your comment.  It was an interesting read. 

      However I will reiterate what I said before - having studied both sides extensively, I do not feel any kinship with the idea of a divine designer, Heaven, Hell and all the stuff in between.  Nor am I arrogant enough to believe that science knows all the answers.  I feel comfortable in my beliefs (or lack thereof!).  I feel no less awe when I gaze up at the sky (or look at those awesome pics on APOD).

      You obviously think I’m deficient in my thinking.  No worries.  I don’t mind having all the answers.  It would take the fun out of life.

    • iansand says:

      12:37pm | 26/03/10

      Paul Horn - You don’t know much about quantum physics, do you?  Try looking up “virtual particle”.  Matter is coming into existence and disappearing all the time.

    • Paul Horn says:

      12:10pm | 26/03/10

      There’s a big problem with your thinking though J.  And it goes like this. Present scientific thinking accepts there was a big bang that heralded the beginning of the universe and the start of time. It was a singularity if you like, a point from which everything was created. The scientific problem though J is that something has never been created from nothing! No scientific experiment has ever produced something from nothing. It is implausible. Ask any scientist to produce metal from a percect vacuum and he/she will laugh in your face.

      Now it is possible that matter can be destroyed and converted into pure energy, Einsteins energy equation which we are all familiar with E=MC*2. So whatever preceded the big bang must have posesesed infinite energy to create this awe inspiring universe.   

      The question is what form did it take and what do you believe? An inifinite ether, an inaminate Star Wars “force”?? An infinite number of parallel universes, flying spaghetti monster? No matter what, these “possibilities"are far more plausible than the unscientific belief that nothing preceded this infinity called our universe.

      Then if you accept that something preceeded the big bang what is its most likely form? What is the probability of it being inaminate, that is having form but no awareness of its existence???  I would say just on pure logic that this probability is very slim because it leads to the next question well what preceeded this form??? And so on. The greatest and most logical probability to my way of thinking is that the predecessor to the big bang is an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being that exists beyond the concept of time and space. A being of and posessing infinite energy able to create mass through the Einsteinian equation.

      150 years ago if you had introduced the concept that mass could be completely annihilated and turned into pure energy (one tiny train ticket possesses enough energy to power the worlds largest train three times around the Earth - staggering) you would have been laughed off your lectern and committed to an insane asylum. Conservation of mass was the law. How arrogant we humans are!!! 

      To add even more awe to the whole argument the probability that mass would be created from infinite energy is infinitisemally low. In fact what should have happened is that the big bang should have resulted in lots of radiation and heat spewing out into infinite blackness. But as we know this was not the case as a small precentage of the reaction became star mass from which all known elements of the periodic table are derived.  I leave it to you to ponder but I am in total awe whenever I look up and peer into that never ending blackness called space populated by infinite glistening specks bejewelling the night sky.

      And by the way fantastic article Mr Deal. Definitely the most insightful and well thought out piece I have ever read on this site. Big pay rise for you sir!!! I will even sign your application.

    • Craigles says:

      09:14am | 26/03/10

      Glad we bonded, J, albeit “non-covalently”

    • J says:

      08:29am | 26/03/10

      @Craigles - cheers.  I failed chem in highschool. wink

    • Craigles says:

      08:10am | 26/03/10

      Not an accident, J. 

      Just the way Organic Chemistry works - mostly based around the covalent bonds of carbon (C), hydrogen (H), nitrogen (N), and other atoms; ... and billions of years for their bondings & groupings to get more organised as bigger and more versatile molecules, as well as for the molecules to work together in increasingly elaborate ways.

    • J says:

      07:51am | 26/03/10

      What is with my spelling lately?  Sorry!  hmmm

    • Isabel says:

      07:50am | 26/03/10

      As a child asking that question, I was told that Y is a crooked letter and you can’t make it straight. Since then I have come to believe that each creates their own answer to “why” such as will satisfy enough to just get on with it.

    • J says:

      07:38am | 26/03/10

      God vs no God is an argument that will go around and around in circles because no side can definitively prove their point.  We find out when we die… well, amybe, who knows?

      For me, I researched both sides, and I just find it too incredible that there is some omnipotent deity that sat down one day and created life.  I find it far more plausible that life happened on this life as a pure accident, then the weak traits were eliminated, and the strong traits nurtured, in accordance with the environment, until we reached the pinnavle (humans), who started manipulating the environment to suit them.  I find the possibility of life on other planets far more plausible that the idea of God.  I find comfort in the fact that for me, there is no deep and profound ‘meaning’ to life, and I can just go about doing my own thing, until I die.  My path might not be the right one for everybody, but it suits me fine.

      In the end, that’s all I can do.  I can’t believe in something I don’t, to make people feel better.  I can only do what’s right for me.  So long as a I don’t wilfully hurt, physically or emotionally, other people whilst doing it, I don’t see anything wrong with it.

      Not sure if that answers your question, but that’s all I’ve got. Have a great day. grin

    • iansand says:

      07:22am | 26/03/10

      Why must there be a “why”?

    • Tedd says:

      06:47am | 26/03/10

      Dawkins could have been God if he’d stayed and joined the Tasmanian Greens-now-in-heaven before the recent state election there. 

      Anglican-ex-Cathlic Rudd is currently pseudo-God, but The-Abbott-the-Cathlic is a wanna-be one.

    • Daddio D says:

      06:38am | 26/03/10

      Chris Deal has written and reasoned well. He mentions Richard Dawkins several times. He mentions no one else in making his points in case. I wonder why? Anybody care to mention a few anti-Dawkins’ “de-facto” theory people? Just so we can get a bit of ‘expert’ balance. And please, leave the Bible out of of this.

    • acker says:

      06:25am | 26/03/10

      Very perspective insight by the article author .... An Athiest who participates in Christmas is a pure Oxymoron

    • Shannon says:

      07:14pm | 26/03/10

      Im an atheist, i don’t celebrate jesus or god, i like presents and spending time with my family.

    • Astrosodi says:

      09:12am | 26/03/10

      Lol, in the modern age, Xmas and Easter are straining to maintain religious meaning for many people. I know a few people who still aren’t sure which one is a celebration of what, and they’re from judeo-christian stock!

      Saying an atheist attends a Christmas function is not evidence of much more than they are attending a family function. Even a staunch atheist might still have social skills and attend church sanctioned weddings. With that logic, a 100% theist wouldn’t attend a civil ceremony, because that’s not a real marriage.

      Geez, stores had Easter ‘eggs’ in stores by February!

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      08:43am | 26/03/10

      Hey Bella, that’s one of the things I like about Christmas it’s so flexible. The symbolism of Xmas now includes the pagan, the Christian and the modern commercialism. It’s a timeless festival.

    • bella starkey says:

      08:12am | 26/03/10

      A pagan is not an atheist so it still doesn’t make sense.

      However, if you look at christmas as the cultural festival as it exists today, where very little of it’s religious beginings bare on it’s current rituals or participants, I don’t think atheists should hae a problem engaging in it.

    • acker says:

      08:04am | 26/03/10

      @Warren….Orwell showed in “1984” if you change history people soon forget why they are doing thing’s. Maybe the godbotherers did that with Xmas 1700-2000 years ago, the Athiests are in the process of putting their spin on Xmas now.

    • Warren says:

      07:31am | 26/03/10

      Surely Christmas was originally a pagan festival, the winter solstice, since appropriated by Christianity?

    • Tedd says:

      06:40am | 26/03/10

      and one who participates in Easter is a bunny? or a bad egg? or just an older-fashion pagan?

    • Tone says:

      06:20am | 26/03/10

      After death, all brain activity has ceased.  It is finite.

    • Amelia says:

      11:35am | 28/03/10

      Regarding the comments of the weight of the soul…

      I was under the impression that the loss of weight with final death was the loss of tidal volume of air from the lungs. We know that air has weight. When you breathe in and out normally, on the out breath there is always a volume of air still left in the lungs (otherwise they would collapse). This is called tidal volume. When you die, you lose this tidal volume and so lose a small amount of weight.
      That was my understanding, but I am open to correction if I am mistaken smile

    • G says:

      06:14pm | 26/03/10

      There needs to be death to be a resurrection. Your statement doesn’t do anything to prove that God doesn’t exist and that death is the end. You’re just stating an obvious fact.

    • Steve Smith says:

      11:08am | 26/03/10

      @Tone: many people have tried weighing the soul. Look up Duncan MacDougall for the earliest instance. He researched into the weight of the soul over 100 years ago. He came up with the result of 21 Grams which was used for a film recently.

    • J says:

      08:54am | 26/03/10

      @Bob H - I prefer cremation, personally. I know it won’t matter when I die, but the thought of putting me in a box to slowly decompose is icky.  Brig on the fire!

    • T.Chong says:

      08:06am | 26/03/10

      Hey Keith, that sounds like a great premise for a flick. I’ll get my people to call yur people.

    • Tone says:

      07:54am | 26/03/10

      Keith, verification would be appreciated.  Perhaps a study reporting a reasonable sample-size of people lying on accurate, appropriately-sensitive scales before, during and after death?

    • Bob H says:

      07:46am | 26/03/10

      Just food for the worms

    • keith hammersmith says:

      07:40am | 26/03/10

      actually at the moment of death, the body loses 7 grams in weight.  Could this be the weight of the soul?

    • Tone says:

      06:51am | 26/03/10

      Nope; no spirit, no soul.  No more imagining them, either.

    • Andrew says:

      06:45am | 26/03/10

      So there’s no spirit?

    • Payton L. Inkletter says:

      06:19am | 26/03/10

      Professor Dawkins et al do well to ridicule the naivete of naïve religion, but they do very little at the profound end of the scale, where some of their own beloved theories are on shaky ground.

      While they persistently attack the kindergarten level of institutionalised religion (which admittedly would encompass the overwhelming majority of believers), they are very short on acumen that could withstand rigorous epistemological examination. I’ve read Dawkin’s ‘The God Delusion’, and found it to be strong on matters of highlighting the absurdities of naïve religion, and weak on matters of scrutiny of the necessary principles underpinning a valid examination of theism versus atheism.

      One of the silliest things Professor Dawkins continues to maintain is that the existence or not of God is a scientific matter: the crucial nuance he misses is that the better definitions of God include his/her/its necessary transcendence of time and space, being of necessity the cause of time and space, while science can only discover facts measurable with the things of time and space, within time and space.

      He would do well to wake up to the understanding that if God exists, while such is neither provable nor unprovable by science (nor religion), the situation would then prevail that science is discovering facts in a universe divinely caused and upheld, and thus would be expected over aeons to uncover many hints of such an origin. This is very different to proclaiming that the existence of God is a scientific matter, even though the difference takes a little understanding.

    • Matt says:

      01:29pm | 31/12/10

      wait, wait, wait….
      as a physicist myself, specialising in quantum mechanics, you’re saying that an atom is good ‘evidence’ of intelligent design?!?!
      then you are suggesting that ‘God’ has at least (once before) interacted with space/time (our 4-dimensional universe).
      Hence, it logically follows that there must be proof?!? where is it?

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:00pm | 06/04/10

      @Payton:
      “And no, complexity doesn’t equal design, but yes, complexity can suggest design; maybe you are agreeing with me?”
      I agree that complexity does not require design.  So do you see that making a point that means we could both be right isn’t helpful?
      “The theistic – atheistic divide is not a false dichotomy, it is a dichotomy.”
      Correct.  But you were presenting a theistic-antitheistic divide.
      “He may want to, or be invited to, share his reasons, his justifications, for his belief or opinion, but if so nothing can be proven of a final nature regarding the nub of these beliefs.”
      So if you don’t want to back your beliefs with reason, you don’t have a burden of proof. Fair enough. The null hypothesis will stand until reason is provided.
      Re your story:
      You’ve presented another false dichotomy.  I can think of examples of the greater coming from the lesser, and examples of greater coming from the greater still. 
      The stuff about atheists denying that we could come from elsewhere is laughable given that Dawkins gets so much scorn from theists for suggesting that panspermia is a possible origin of live on earth. 
      And the “moderate voices” should look into genetic markers for altruism.  The suggestion that the scientific world is completely perplexed by the existence of ‘truth, beauty and goodness’ is extraordinarily naïve.

    • Payton L. Inkletter says:

      04:14pm | 02/04/10

      @Steely Dan:
      (“And are you aware (I could be forgiven for assuming not) of the assumptions inherent in your use of ‘natural’.”) “I am.” Well then, you’ll resonate to the philosophical lessons implicit in the following story:

      Mankind developed scientifically in leaps and bounds, and began the process of terraforming Mars, and over the subsequent million years made spectacularly fast and successful progress, producing a planet with oceans teeming with marine life, continents covered with land life, an atmosphere like Earth’s, and most of Earth’s species present, and many new ones.

      It was time to take the bold step and introduce humans; two space liners set off, one carrying a thousand adults, the other a thousand children. On the way a massive rogue extra-solar system planet hurtled in, colliding with and obliterating the adults’ vessel, and its gravity was so great it pulled Earth with it and on into a fiery death upon the surface of the Sun. By some amazing stroke of luck the children’s vessel made it to Mars, and as it was on automatic pilot, landed and despatched its living cargo successfully, before it blew up, leaving shredded remains which eventually were washed deep into the sea and covered with sediment.

      Many of the young maroons survived and bred, and over the next several hundreds of millennia wrought out an advancing civilisation, from the cave man standards they began with, and around a million years from that fateful day when those little ones became ‘little green men’, their society was on a par with the Earth of the current readers of this tale.

      Some folk believed in God, some believed in no God, and debate raged perennially about the origin of reality. There were those who maintained that THE GREATER COMES FROM THE LESSER – “We are living proof!” they said – while others held that THE GREATER COMES FROM THE GREATER STILL – “Only an infinitely intelligent creator could originate reality, whether involving evolutionary processes or not!” they said.

      “Nonsense!” the atheists bellowed. “Entirely natural mechanisms at work here on Hearth (their name for the now third rock from the Sun) brought us about.”

      “What, meaning no outside help or influence by higher intelligence?” quizzed the theists.

      “No, we don’t believe in fairy tales, and neither should you!” they shouted back in unison.

      One of the less hairy but atheistic erudites wrote a book, calling it ‘The Supernatural Delusion’, in which he legitimately lambasted the many stupidities, naiveties, and atrocities of the professional class of religionists that had sprung up, but try as he might, Professor Chuck Meeno Phaireetayl could not eradicate the pesky belief in God held by many.

      There were always persistently valid and crucial questions which his theories could not dispense with, despite the unwitting help the ugly and immature theists lent his cause. There were always some – sometimes very few – moderate voices calling out “But Chuck, what about this anomaly, what about that dead end, where is the genetic code for the appreciation of truth, beauty, and goodness?”

    • Payton L. Inkletter says:

      04:34am | 02/04/10

      @Steely Dan:
      “So complexity = design?  What about complexity suggests conscious design?” This is confused: ‘conscious’ is a redundancy. And no, complexity doesn’t equal design, but yes, complexity can suggest design; maybe you are agreeing with me?
      “It is a problem if you’re trying to get someone to believe what you do.” There are several ways to classify theists and atheists, and in our immediate topic’s context, consider these few:
      Aggressive: striving to convert those of opposing belief/opinion;
      Passive: willing in some circumstances to debate the issues involved foundational to the beliefs/opinions held;
      Apathetic/Neutral: preferring not to get involved.

      Professor Richard Dawkins and many fundamentalist theists fit the aggressive label, and thus have the problems to wrestle with to which you allude; as does anyone of any of the classifications who enters debate with them.

      I place myself loosely into the passive group; though a theist, I don’t mind anyone who is an atheist, or a theist of different bent, or an agnostic (and I am fascinated with the prognostic, although I have issues with the caustic!); I enjoy debating issues, especially if my interlocutor is intelligent and sincere; I do mind ugly behaviour, both in myself and others.

      I note that Richard Dawkins’ behaviour in general is exemplary, if a bit arrogant at times, but in general he is a gentleman of a high order, and many ugly theists, some very prominent, would do well to emulate his behaviour. He doesn’t threaten violence to anyone.

      Now I’m less interested in ‘trying to get someone to believe what (I) do’, than trying to get a person to rigorously examine the issues and principles germane to their belief, of whatever a/theistic flavour. The Dawkinsensians of the world as well as ugly and naïve theists come as obvious targets, but in both cases, bizarrely so in the case of the former, intelligent debate is too often an excruciating and fraught procedure, in which the non sequitur and moving goal posts are but two of the constant hazards needing to be negotiated around.

      “You’re aware that this is a false dichotomy?” The theistic – atheistic divide is not a false dichotomy, it is a dichotomy.

      “You’re also aware that the person making a claim has the burden of proof?” Yes, if he is making a scientific claim.

      Not so, if he is claiming “God exists!” or “God does not exist!”, for he is then making a statement of faith-belief or opinion, not of conjectured scientific fact, regardless of whether or not he is savvy to the epistemological nature of these statements. He may want to, or be invited to, share his reasons, his justifications, for his belief or opinion, but if so nothing can be proven of a final nature regarding the nub of these beliefs.

      If you willingly find yourself debating things ontological with an equally willing opposition, why not revel and rejoice in the opportunity and stimulation of polite intellectual striving and investigation to the end of advancing reason and mutually learning from one another? Your twains may never meet, they may meet part way, or the one may hop right over the divide to the other.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:12pm | 01/04/10

      @Payton
      “Of many material things, I consider the atom to be a superb piece of evidence supporting (possible) design”
      So complexity = design?  What about complexity suggests conscious design? 

      “Well, it may not be a problem at all, for that depends upon the individual’s outlook”
      It is a problem if you’re trying to get someone to believe what you do. 

      “it is clearly a difficulty for both sides: if you claim there is no God, or if you claim there is”
      You’re aware that this is a false dichotomy? You’re also aware that the person making a claim has the burden of proof?

      “And are you aware (I could be forgiven for assuming not) of the assumptions inherent in your use of ‘natural’”
      I am.

    • Payton L. Inkletter says:

      05:45am | 01/04/10

      @Steely Dan: You are making an educated guess that I believe in God, if you confine the indications to my comments thus far to Chris Deal’s article here; you assume correctly however. It matters that I have never in my adult life been a member of any organised, institutionalised, (nor, for that matter, disorganised) religion.

      What evidence do I base my belief in God upon? Firstly I must pay my dues by promissory note to the linguistics realm, by registering in passing the caveat that ‘belief’, and – especially – ‘God’, are complex concepts which suffer from so much ugly distortion and ‘simplisticification’ in so many minds, and thus it would be wise some time to hone the cutting edges of these words’ semantic payloads, in regard to my employment of them.

      A tad of history: the inception of my considered belief in God dates from my very early adulthood, triggered by the reading of a non-fiction book in which the author related his belief in God as a side issue, not the subject nor message of his exposition. This belief has developed and ripened over the almost 40 years since; not surprisingly, the nature of it has changed: specifically, the degree of certainty has increased vastly, as has the appreciation of the being believed in.

      So the origin of my belief in God was more in the order of an appeal from another’s mind, and subsequent thinking about it, than specific scientific evidence, and the intellectual groove has been the primary pathway, by predilection, that I’ve followed in establishing the foundations for my deepening belief in, growing faith in, and increasing valuing of, God.

      My (subjective) certainty of the existence of God is now but an infinitesimal fraction of a flea’s whisker’s breadth from my certainty of my wife’s existence; her I touch, argue with, feel her regularly lessening the weight of my wallet as well as feel her slaps (!), all with my gross senses, and I love and adore her with my finer ones: God I experience (subjectively) exclusively with the subtler range of human awareness capacities.

      Back to evidence: Taking ‘evidence’ to mean observations-measurements-perceptions (the scientific kind), and expanded to include intangible qualities such as love, purpose, consistency, sensibleness, and such, embracing intellectual conundrums, paradoxes, mysteries, and the like (these latter being of the non-scientific kind), taking these things scientific and non-scientific, and grouping them together as things suggestive of (or in need of) explanations for elements of the reality ‘set’, or the whole collective, I find I have an abundance of evidence supporting my belief; not proving it, but lending support. I also acknowledge evidence that tends to counter the existence of God, or support both mutually exclusive possibilities.

      Of many material things, I consider the atom to be a superb piece of evidence supporting (possible) design; it is hardly proof, but is a good example of a successful machine which is stable in scores of versions, but is flexible enough to combine to form possibly limitless molecular states, and which thus is a candidate for a system to design for purposes of chemistry and biology. If the physics we know did not exist, and human-kind existed by other means, and was or grew to be highly intelligent, it is conceivable, at least as a thought experiment (I don’t anticipate that human intelligence could reach the level required), that we could design such a physics to make the atom possible, for the purpose of its fulfilling the roles we know it does.

      And but another two suggestive pieces of evidence for me for the existence of an infinitely intelligent designer of the foundations of reality are morphogenesis, and the genetic transmission of behaviour.

      You wrote: “The fact that it is impossible to make a scientific case that links physical evidence in our time and space to the existence of a being outside of time and space is only a problem for the person making the claim that they are in fact linked.” Well, it may not be a problem at all, for that depends upon the individual’s outlook; however, in the sense you appear to mean, it is clearly a difficulty for both sides: if you claim there is no God, or if you claim there is, this transcendence quality breaks the scientific evidence trail at the portal to or from time and space; grasping this might take a tad of thought, but it is problematic for all dichotomous claimants, myself included.

      And are you aware (I could be forgiven for assuming not) of the assumptions inherent in your use of ‘natural’ in your statement “…consistent with entirely natural mechanisms…”?

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:17pm | 31/03/10

      @Payton: “I introduced the continuum analogy to demonstrate that meanings are fuzzy.”
      And I don’t think it’s particularly helpful or relevant. Everyone’s well aware of this fact, and this is an issue that has to be factored into every examination, not just questions of the existence of god/s. (I’ve omitted any discussion of your Dawkins book review as I’m not sure it’s relevant).

      “Your last sentence above betrays that you view the putative existence of God and the physical effects of this in the same way that a science experiment is conducted”
      Betrays?  I’ll pronounce it openly.  I have no “philosophical problem” with my statement that if the number of purported divine interventions were really occurring, the vast number of believers should be able to produce some measurable, testable evidence that is not also consistent with entirely natural mechanisms.  It is not rational for me to accept the existence of a god based on a lack of measurable, unambiguous evidence, even if a lack of measurable, unambiguous evidence is entirely consistent with the existence of a hypothetical transcendent being.  The fact that it is impossible to make a scientific case that links physical evidence in our time and space to the existence of a being outside of time and space is only a problem for the person making the claim that they are in fact linked.

      Why don’t you explain what evidence led you to believe in a god?

    • Payton L. Inkletter says:

      06:35am | 31/03/10

      @Steely Dan: Let me clarify regarding ‘objectivity’ and ‘subjectivity’: I introduced the continuum analogy to demonstrate that meanings are fuzzy.

      No word’s meaning is discrete, not a single one. The most obvious evidence for this a perusal of a dictionary. And all pursuits of knowledge at the human level must first pay their linguistic dues; this is unavoidable, even though often unpalatable to some or many or most.

      Regarding the subjectivity-objectivity continuum, each observation and then each interpretation of that observation, could, in theory, have a quotient applied to it, namely, a subjectivity/objectivity quotient.

      So if a toddler encounters a brick, her observation-measurement-perception of ‘a big hard thing’ would attract a low objectivity quotient, or OQ, and her interpretation of her observation would have to earn an even lower OQ, or higher SQ, subjectivity quotient.

      A modern engineer’s OQ and SQ scores for the brick hopefully would reflect far better on both, with the SQ scores close to the 0 end and the OQ scores close to the 1 end.

      But no human can score a 1 for OQ for any observation and lesser so for its interpretation. Pure objectivity is not a thing we encounter like the things of energy-matter, not a thing we can bump into and then examine. It rather is an ideal of mind reality, and an assessment or judgment upon the degree of objectivity (reliability; even value!) contained is made anew by every student who ponders some presented fact.

      When this is appreciated, it invites a degree of appropriate humility to be invested into any subject of inquiry and its discoveries, its facts. And I AM NOT thus saying, as some do, that no facts are safe: I risk my life gladly every day, as do we all, based upon the solid (high OQ) facts of science; I AM saying that some ‘facts’ are on far shakier ground than many of their proponents – on both sides of the theistic-atheistic divide – insist, even still, in this 21st century.

      Dawkins does not evince an adequate understanding of the linguistic limitations encircling the subject he fancies himself on top off in his ‘The God Delusion’, and this reader found scores upon scores of fallacious reasonings and conclusions of his flowing from this ignorance. And I must add, I have no problem with accepting the part that natural selection has obviously played in evolution. The pity is that his delusions of grandeur at being an expert in the things of surmised divinity not only put him in the same asylum as the religiously naïve (I’m feeling too polite to use the word ‘nutters’), these delusions regarding his discriminative powers detract from some of the excellent work he has done in his disciplines of ethology and evolutionary biology.

      Your last sentence above betrays that you view the putative existence of God and the physical effects of this in the same way that a science experiment is conducted: ‘…the hypothesis that a god/s has a physical impact on this earth is unfounded without a measurable impact…’

      Science uses the things of time and space to measure the things of time and space. Automatically you have a philosophical problem looming if you seek to scientifically test a purported ‘intervention’ by a creator being who by definition transcends time and space, but I’ll trust that some of our readers will process that one relatively unaided. Just let me drop a hint of the issues to be dealt with: the scientists of and within the system of time and space have to devise a means of proving or disproving an ‘impact’ – your words – arising from ‘outside’ this system. Good luck to them…

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:02pm | 30/03/10

      @Payton
      “Both evidence and its interpretation are subjective at the human level.” But in your very next statement you say this: “Evidence is an observation-measurement”. If it’s measurable, it is not subjective. A measurable, observable brick is (conclusive) evidence of the existence of that brick. Subjectivity (and I’m not 100% sure that’s the right term to use) comes in when somebody then asserts something that is not immediately measurable or observable (eg. ‘that brick was used to break the window in the break and enter case’). Human minds are certainly fallible, but this is what the scientific process is for – to try and eliminate the fallibility of one mind’s interpretation.
      To bring this back on topic – the hypothesis that a god/s has a physical impact on this earth is unfounded without a measurable impact that is not perfectly compatible with all opposing hypotheses.

    • Payton L. Inkletter says:

      04:14am | 30/03/10

      @Steely Dan: Both evidence and its interpretation are subjective at the human level.

      Evidence is an observation-measurement, and thus requires mental processing for its apprehension-comprehension, that is, evidence is a result of perception. Evidence is first experienced as real in the observer’s mind. The human mind is finite in quantity and quality, it is sub-absolute.

      Both a million observers of the same brick, or one person observing the brick a million times will render unique perceptions, however slightly different; the same applies even more so to the interpretation of the brick.

      Thus evidence can be placed on a continuum of ‘objectivity’, increasing, for example, from 0 to 1, 1 being totally reliable/accurate, totally objective.

      Thus interpretation of evidence can also be placed on the same continuum.

      These positionings are determined by both the nature of the thing observed, and the nature and limitations of the observer, for but two determiners.

    • Steely Dan says:

      09:58am | 29/03/10

      @Payton: Evidence is not subjective – but our interpretation of the evidence can be.  Saying that something like an atom is evidence for design is pure speculation – yes, it’s consistent with the hypothesis that everything came from a designer, but also consistent with the hypothesis that there is no compelling reason to assert that a designer designed anything. Again – plausibility is not possibility.  It is very easy to construct an un-falsifiable being (eg. Flying Spaghetti Monster), but it is very hard to show that there is reason to believe it exists. 
      In the case of a theistic God that answers prayer, ‘guides’ evolution or has some other physical impact on the universe, we should be able to record it.

    • Payton L. Inkletter says:

      04:47am | 29/03/10

      Thanks @Daddio D, @iansand, @Mike, @Steely Dan, for taking the trouble to try to slap me into line somewhat. @the apologist understands my empiric point and re-expressed it well.

      @Steely Dan: ‘Evidence’: is observation-measurement needing of or supporting various explanations, but it is such a subjective concept; and much evidence supports contending explanations at the same time: take as one simplistic example of which, the invisibility of God: this supports the atheist’s contention, because something that doesn’t exist won’t be visible, while this same invisibility supports the theist’s contention, for something that is outside of time and space can’t be visible.

      Take the evidence of the atom: it’s as close to a perpetual motion machine as we’re likely to find, the moving parts of which keep on going for billions of years against ‘frictions’ and ‘drags’ of various kinds (gravitational and electromagnetic for example): One person considers the atom, and sees it as the result of an ultimately accidental agglomeration of forces for no reason, with no ultimate purpose; Another sees an ingenious mechanism designed to be both incredibly stable and amazingly malleable, making chemistry and biology possible.

      As for the putative principles I alluded to, consider but two: Dawkins and his faithful, whether they are aware of this or not, are pushing to prove a principle that is ontologically profound, namely THE GREATER COMES FROM THE LESSER. Many equally intelligent thinkers push for a mutually exclusive principle, namely THE GREATER COMES FROM THE GREATER STILL. This latter principle is not damaged by the process of evolution, in which case a process of development from simple to complex intervenes between the GREATER STILL and the GREATER.

    • Steely Dan says:

      06:02pm | 26/03/10

      @the apologist:

      @Steely Dan:
      “Perhaps it would be good to contemplate how very little of what happens in the world you experience my friend.”
      I don’t claim to have absolute knowledge. I claim that nobody has presented me with any credible evidence.

      “How can you empirically find something which is not subject to empirical process?”
      You can’t. So how does one distinguish between lack of evidence and evidence that can’t be detected?

      “Our knowledge of Him needs to be revelational.”
      So your argument about evidence was pointless.  You don’t think we would be able to believe in God via non-personal revelation. So why has this God refused to come to show his/herself to me? Let me guess: because I’m a nasty person who has ‘closed their heart’?

      “Can you see the logical flow based upon the premise?”
      I can. Just back your premise and you’re good to go!

    • the apologist says:

      04:12pm | 26/03/10

      @Steely Dan:
      Perhaps it would be good to contemplate how very little of what happens in the world you experience my friend.
      In response to your point on different standards of proof for the creator claim: From the Christian perspective, it logically follows that if the Creator created all things, and exists outside all things, the ‘normal’ approach to testing claims (i.e.empirical process) doesn’t apply. How can you empirically find something which is not subject to empirical process? (which is an evident truth with God).
      Our knowledge of Him needs to be revelational. I think this is the direction that Payton was heading. Can you see the logical flow based upon the premise?

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:37pm | 26/03/10

      Payton, if someone (and most people in the world are in this category) believe that their God has some physical impact on this world (through answering prayer etc), we would be able to see evidence of this.  And we should be able to test this. Dawkins’ point is this - why does the existence of an intelligent creator require a different standard of evidence than any other claim would? Plausibility is not probability.

    • Mike says:

      02:25pm | 26/03/10

      I think Peyton is saying that God is a timelord. For they transcend time and space, and alternate universes aswell. And they have cool accents too. Except for that one Doctor. You know, the american one. How crap was he.

      But I also agree with you Daddio, Time and space are constructs of man to define existence.

    • iansand says:

      07:21am | 26/03/10

      Lot of words to say nothing much.  You can call the first cause that brought the Universe and its physical laws into existence God if you want.  Or you can call it Veronica.  Or the Big Bang.  That is just a label.

      It is the ongoing micro-managing god that is the problem.  The one that created the natural laws of the Universe then chooses to flout them.

    • Daddio D says:

      06:40am | 26/03/10

      That’s all very well if you believe that Time and Space exist. I don’t believe either does. Both were invented by some men/women of mankind to give some order to the world we humans inhabit. When was the last time you saw a cat or an elephant wearing a watch? Or carrying a measuring tape? Yet both know when and where and how far to go to get food. They don’t write rubbish either. In fact they don’t write at all.  grin

    • Timmo says:

      05:58am | 26/03/10

      Well, for the people who believe there is a God there is a God and for the people who believe there isn’t a God there is not one and then there are the people who say, if there is there is and if there isn’t there isn’t”, and they leave it open and don’t get into spiritual danger and we surely can quite easily. So what’s the problem. There is no problem. We should all believe what we want and it will be right for us, but not necessarily true as belief is just that, belief.

      Every one of us has a belief in something, even non belief is belief in nothing. Religions say, come this way, go that way, we know, we have the power of the God,we are better than you. We have been given the Light from the God. They all say it and they also promote their God as being the only one and much greater that the others. Do they think that in the world of Gods they are more greatly favoured than the others who believe differently. Doesn’t make any sense to me at all, because I can tell all of you good believers out there that, the God that I have created in my imagination is the Greatest of all the Gods and all of your Gods bow down before my God. My God will never be unseated from his throne of Goddom and will destroy all of your later gods as he is the primordial God. The God even of all the Gods. I do not need an organization for my God as he doesn’t have need for money and power as his power is Absolute, and cannot be disputed, so he tends just to hang around where I am all the time. No need for churches and temples and mosques for him as he is always where I am, so where I go he goes. I am aware of him and he is aware of me and that suits us both very nicely thank you. I just have to sit down anywhere, close my eyes and there he is within me. Now isn’t that great, I feel so anyway. Hope you agree!.

    • Frazer says:

      10:25pm | 26/03/10

      Not sure about belief in nothing is a belief. Does that mean that NOT being involved in stamp collecting is a hobby.

    • Bind Faithful says:

      02:53pm | 26/03/10

      Yeah, Timmo, that is great, let’s all join hands and dance in a circle in a sunny, mountain meadow with our happy-happy joy-joy Gods inside us.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:30pm | 26/03/10

      Well, for the people who believe Barack Obama is a reptoid he’s a reptoid and for the people who believe he isn’t a reptoid he isn’t a reptoid. So what’s the problem?

      The problem, Timmo, is that I don’t think you or anyone else actually believes that there are multiple truths out there. Multiple interpretations, sure - but some people actually want to know the truth.

    • Simon says:

      01:28pm | 26/03/10

      Nnnnnnnnn God.

    • MichaelS says:

      10:01am | 26/03/10

      LOL nice one sounds a bit like live and let live to me, way to go! i like this, there is no need to run around with a board with a nail in it smashing it in to anyones head that does not agree with you!

    • Sam Chowder says:

      09:41am | 26/03/10

      My gods been there all the time, ain’t omnipitance great.  Unfortunately I’m relying on public transport before the mother of all battles can commence.

    • AliceC says:

      08:21am | 26/03/10

      Oh GOD! smile

    • Isabel says:

      07:46am | 26/03/10

      Sam, we (God and I) are in the carpark watching.

    • Sam Chowder says:

      07:35am | 26/03/10

      I’m sorry Timmo but my God is harder than your god - outside in the carpark now

    • Isabel says:

      07:34am | 26/03/10

      Timmo, have we met in my imagination?

    • J says:

      07:04am | 26/03/10

      And that is the difference between religion and spirituality.  Nice one, Timmo. grin

    • JJJ says:

      06:44am | 26/03/10

      If only everyone felt the same way you do, Timmo. I am all for people having their own faith, but allow me to have mine & stop trying to label something that is undefinable.

    • Ron Saunders says:

      05:57am | 26/03/10

      If there was a real story to any bible it has been lost through translation
      over the centuries so we will never know the real story behind it as every
      translators has either left out or added bits that they either liked or
      disliked or were told to do so.

    • Jim says:

      02:23am | 27/03/10

      Ron thinks that 4000 years ago, humans had the same literacy to perverse and pervert things, as they do on facebook today.

      Seriously. The Bible still has it’s original text that is carbon dated as well.

    • Ron Saunders says:

      07:31pm | 26/03/10

      Well Steve what was the first language the bible was written in!

    • Dave in Perth says:

      04:25pm | 26/03/10

      Us regular folk have to make do with Codex Sinaiticus (~450AD) as a biblical start point.  Everything prior is just conjecture. Word of mouth? Handwritten? Who knows? Every played Chinese Whispers?

      The first PRINTED bible wasn’t until 1450’ish, so all sorts of transcription errors would have crept in along the way.

      Lee from WA obviously has a VERY comprehensive library at home, cause it would appear he’s got Moses’ Tablets to practice his Greek on!

      I climbed Mt Sinai a few years back, and NOW I realise why I didn’t find the Tablets along the trail. It’s cause Lee’s got them !

    • Craigles says:

      09:15am | 26/03/10

      How can we know what the original texts were?  There are only the texts that have been discovered, which may be rewrite number 53 for all we know

    • Lee from WA says:

      08:44am | 26/03/10

      Any evidence for that? Because if you go and learn New Testament Greek, you can look at the original texts for yourself, no need for translation. That is one of the great things about the Reformation - knowing Greek and Hebrew is important because for many centuries, the church told you what to believe.

    • Steve says:

      08:35am | 26/03/10

      Ron, how do you come to that conclusion?

    • John A Neve says:

      05:48am | 26/03/10

      The question; is there a God, should be replaced with, how many Gods do we want?

      Do all religions worship the same God?  Or do they all have their own? It matters not how these questions are answered, either way we have a problem.

      Then we have the issue of creation; if there is a creator?  Does the creator have to be a God?  Could the creator not be the Devil?

      If there is a benevolent God?  I don’t think there is, this omnipotent thing has failed mankind. The world it created has been ragged, bagged and shagged, rather than live in a garden of Eden, we are fighting amongst ourselve for the crumbs of existence.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      06:55am | 29/03/10

      Wayne - Faith, like a Jackal, feeds among the tombs, and even from those dead doubts she gathers her most vital hope.

      Herman Melville

    • Mike says:

      02:06pm | 26/03/10

      Lee from WA and Robert Smissen: To quote Alec Baldwin from a movie whose name escapes me, ” You accuse me of having a God complex? Let me tell you something, I am God.”

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      12:58pm | 26/03/10

      proud infidel :  Whether you embraced a belief in God , via a religion , as a child or an adult , your belief is still faith .  Yes , you may form that hypothetical religion in your mind and still believe in God . You believe in Him because you have faith. You don’t have to embrace religion to have faith and believe in God. I am not a religious person but i do believe in God. I have faith.

    • Grumbles says:

      12:48pm | 26/03/10

      John, relax, life is actually pretty good. We are not fighting amongst ourselves for the crumbs of existence, the fact is there is plenty for everybody. It is all well and good to blame God for the state of the world, but what about man, with his free will. This is where we have ended up and the state of the world doesn’t say anything for or against the existence of God.

    • Robert Smissen of Rural SA says:

      11:33am | 26/03/10

      Lee from WA you could be right. My thoughts are, God doesn’t think he is Kevin Rudd, however…............

    • Proud Infidel says:

      11:06am | 26/03/10

      Wayne, faith in religion only exists because it is taught to children. By your logic Scientology or any religion invented, even one I just invented in my mind as an abstract concept has truth, because I may be able to convince myself to have faith in it. Sounds like you are confusing faith with hope.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      10:51am | 26/03/10

      SR :  Your analysis of faith contains the message that you once had faith ,  that life has not dealt well with you and you now struggle to maintain your faith. This can happen to all believers during life and certainly leads to an individual questioning or abandoning his or her faith.

    • SR says:

      09:26am | 26/03/10

      The problem/paradox that the “faithful” have is that they often confuse faith/belief with selfish or self interest desires/wants.

      When faith and self interest are combined (unsuccessfully), “righteousness” is the result, which basically means “God is on MY/their side”.

      God is on no ones’ side, except apparently Jesus’ which means pretty much nothing.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      09:12am | 26/03/10

      John , simply put , there are billions of people in our world of varying religions , who believe in God . The basic virtue required is faith . You can persecute them in so many ways , destroy their material lives , force them into a life of misery but you will never take away their faith.
      Your question ” Do all religions worship the same God ? ”  has a simple answer : we all worship the same God even though we see Him through differrent eyes.  Faith can not be physically taken from a believer even if he or she is forced to renounce his or her faith.

    • Lee from WA says:

      08:40am | 26/03/10

      iansand: lol, maybe Kevin Rudd is actually looking for a spot on that committee rather than the UN.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:53am | 26/03/10

      Iansand,

      Methinks you could be right, the Camel theory at work!  God like committees don’t work either, now that makes me feel a lot better.

    • iansand says:

      07:21am | 26/03/10

      Maybe all the gods sit as a committee.  Decisions (or, more accurately, lack of decision) by committee would explain some of the otherwise inexplicable stuff that happens.

 

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