WHAT sort of a society breeds little bastards like these?

As The Sun saw it

Thats what Britain is asking itself after the sickening details of how a ten-year-old boy and his 11-year-old brother tortured two other boys to within an inch of their lives were made public here last week.

The facts of the case, which has echoes in the killing of two-year-old Jamie Bulger in Liverpool in 1993, have provoked a storm of anger and re-opened the debate about Broken Britain and where it all went wrong for a once proud country.

They are that the two brothers who had been put in foster care three weeks earlier lured two boys, nine and 11, to a stream on land behind their Yorkshire council estate where they started on an attack of almost unimaginable savagery for ones so young.

The boys were conned into thinking they were going to see a dead fox but when they got to the woodland spot they were beaten by the brothers, stripped naked, forced to perform sex acts on each other and urinated on before attempts were made to strangle them with a clothes line and burn them alive under a plastic sheet.

The pair, who are now referred to in the British tabloids as the devil brothers, used bricks, sharpened sticks, barbed wire and lit cigarettes to torture the terrified boys for no other reason, they told police, that there was nowt else to do.

The boys were forced to eat stinging nettles and one was made to lick his own blood off one of the brothers shoes.

The brothers dropped a 13kg stone on the 11-year-olds head, nearly killing him. That was before a broken sink was carried in and dropped on his head.

Before he fell into a coma, the boy made the heartbreaking plea to his younger friend: “You go and I’ll just die here”.

The brothers filmed part of the attack on a stolen mobile phone and one was heard saying: “Hell of a picture” as he took close-up pictures of the 11-year-olds shattered face with one eye swollen shut.

Nationwide disgust has led to calls for the brothers to be locked up for longer than the five years in juvenile detention they were handed last week but the debate has, naturally, moved on to who are the parents that could bring up children capable of such barbarism?

The short answer is scumbags.

The boys are two of seven boys to a family known to social services in Doncaster for 14 years.

Before being dropped on a foster couple in their 60s with no chance of keeping them out of trouble, the boys grew up in a home without rules, love or care.

At nine, one of the boys was openly smoking pot and swigging strong cider at home while he and his brother would watch porn films and horror films without anyone saying a thing.

Their father spent most of his time can of beer in hand cultivating his marijuana plants.

Before he abandoned the family they were spending $800 a week in benefits on alcohol and drugs, with the boys told to scavenge skips behind the local supermarket if they were hungry.

When the media arrived at the door in the days after the attack the mother screamed through the mail flap: Theyre nowt to do with me.

This shocking urban nightmare has ordinary Britons wondering how people can live like that in the same country they call home.

Indeed in places like central London where people will shell out $30,000 for a terms schooling, a council estate in Doncaster may as well be on a different planet rather than a just few hours up the M1.

The huge difference between privilege and poverty in this country is one of the saddest and most intriguing aspects of Britain, especially for someone from what is arguably a country with a leveller playing field like Australia.

I was reminded of some facts that surfaced last year that show the social apartheid that exists here: Two million people living the UK have never had a job.

Three million more have been out of work since the current Labour government took office 12 year ago under Tony Blair.

Nearly one in six children is growing up in a workless household.

In workless ghettos like parts of Doncaster, the problem is passed on from parent to child to the point where no one knows anyone who has ever had a job.

In light of that, the words of those misguided little boys: nowt else to do, really ring in the ears.

74 comments

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    • awick27 says:

      07:29am | 01/02/10

      Offer these kinds of people about $10k to get themselves sterilized. It quite clear that they are so selfish they don’t care about their own kids anyway. And the cost is tiny in comparison to the costs of the state to have fork out to care, lock up, rehab these problem kids.

    • Liz says:

      07:53am | 01/02/10

      There’s no redemption for these kids,it’s a life sentence imposed by their parents.Thatcher’s Britain saw a return to the time of Dickens.
      Don’t kid yourself that these things don’t happen in Australia.It’s the downside of a welfare state and of the loss of social responsibility.There are too many victims out there and not enough who know how to be survivors.

    • Razor says:

      01:38pm | 01/02/10

      Liz - NuLabor has been runningth e country for the past 11 years.  Thatcher can’t eb responsible for this.

    • Jack Thomas says:

      01:43pm | 01/02/10

      So by your reasoning John Howard and Peter Costello must have taken it to a whole new level with the baby bonus?

      So much has been said about the great benefits from Baby Boomers, but it looks to me that the Baby Boomers (you old farts pushing property prices through the roof and then complaining about how you never got the first home buyer’s grant) includes the generation whose parents could never say no to them, let them stay at home until they are 30, etc.

      The writer’s comments about “social apartheid” are similarly weak, it implies that not having a job is a result of some evil government policy, rather than getting off your @rse to access the millions of schemes and opportunities we have in our 1st world country.

      If you are looking for government to fix your family and others then we’re all doomed (or maybe you’re a current Labor MP or lackey who keeps dreaming up new ideas and laws to ‘produce positive outcomes for Working Families’).

    • DougB says:

      08:06am | 01/02/10

      We are seeing the results of large sprawling centers of population and an effect of a lack of real face to face social interaction.

      Our whole society is losing it’s sense of COMMUNITY.  Once upon a time towns were small enough and interaction was such that, people new the good and the bad.  We knew our community members and we would help them in times of need, (unemployment, disaster, family tragedies etc). We went to dances, we met in the hotels, we had social groups. 

      Now we live vicariously through the internet, and DVD’s of the world.  Even in suburbia, people knew the neighbours in their street.  Street parties and events were common.  Now you don’t dare talk to the person 3 houses down because they have a motorbike and might be involved in drugs etc.

      When children went astray, we smacked them, but even better they had been raised to understand society and it’s values and we made them feel guilty for stepping outside those boundaries.  They were raised with the same values our community had.

      We need to make it safe and fun for people to be together again, meeting new folks and learning to be part of the “tribe”.  Without it we will splinter into small family factions with no respect for the whole.

    • Rob says:

      08:48am | 01/02/10

      What sort of society breeds children like this ?

      One where the average male life expectancy in 2010 is around 60 or below. This is the case in deprived areas of Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, London and so on.  There are parts of Scotland’s largest city when the male life expectancy is on par with that of Botswana.

      The appalling state of the 1960s built council-owned housing stock (low and high rise) and extreme levels of unemployment have created a violent and crime-ridden hell that represents life for many millions in urban Britain.
      It is a socially-dislocated world that is run by criminal gangs and awash with hard drugs.

      Children in these deprived areas are often addicted to alcohol before their teens and then heroin and speed thereafter. Sydney, for example, has its “housing commission” estates in places like Minto and Mount Druitt, but the scale of poverty seen in these places is multiplied twenty fold in cities like Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester. Even in large towns like Doncaster, there are “council estates” that would rival the very worst of their kind in Sydney and Melbourne.

    • CSallen says:

      09:06am | 01/02/10

      maybe the problem started when a family known to child services for 14 years was allowed to have 7 children?
      I really don’t think this has anything to do with the fact that Doncaster etc has lost it’s sense of Community, rather that conditions exist quite how Rob has described above.
      Surely social services should be able to step in, just how they should be able to in Australia as well. If only they had the funding and focus from the Government to keep up.

    • Freaked out says:

      09:28am | 01/02/10

      This is us in about seven years time. Just saying.

    • Babs says:

      12:10pm | 01/02/10

      Isn’t it us now, especially in those indigenous communities where children were deemed to be so at risk the army was sent in to save them.  This is in no sense a comment on the actual conditions of those communities, just on what is reported to us through the press. In the still feudal ‘United Kingdom’  under-class families have no purpose or value so what they do to one another doesn’t matter.  Does anyone else see the parallels?

    • Peter Thornton says:

      09:33am | 01/02/10

      Agree with an earlier post. They are a reflection of their environment and of those who maintain compliance in that environment. Scumbags do what they see other scumbags do…

      It’s extremely unsettling this, and five years (or whatever length of time they’re given for further, erm, training) is hardly appropriate punishment and practically useless as a deterrent. However when a government rewards breeding in an already overcrowded and toxically unhealthy community (for want of a better word) with food subsidies, discount housing, travel etc, what else is to be expected?

      Time to enforce sterilization or, at minimum, closely scrutinize and review those who want to procreate. This won’t go away otherwise.

    • H of SA says:

      09:55am | 01/02/10

      Have a look at some of the reports into child protection in this country Heath, don’t kid yourself kids are growing up in homes just as bad here…..and will continue to do so while society chooses to allow the problem to continue.

      Its become a sad and predictable cycle - horrible thing happens to a child - media outrage - government inquiry - no more resources given to child protection - community had forgotten about it - re-elects underfunding government - horrible thing happens to child - media outrage…....

    • G says:

      10:09am | 01/02/10

      I am sure that violent media had something to do with this, either they had been playing grand theft auto prior to the attacks or watching that saw movie.

    • David says:

      12:46am | 02/02/10

      Maybe it was those horror films he was watching unchecked by his parents, hmmm, yes definitely.
      Pass the buck, that’s the Baby Boomer philosophy!

    • 6clegs says:

      11:02am | 01/02/10

      The tribe of 8 kids, that live next door to me ( gotta be many different sires going by hair colour) ‘mum’ has motor bike and 2 cars - not long after they moved in ‘mum’ and latest partner left saturday morning on bike for what turned out to be the weekend. I saw NO evidence of another capable adult the *whole weekend*. ( this happens fairly regularly - usually when there’s a bikie rally on)

      Anyway, just one of the ‘‘pranks’’ 3 of the under FIVES got up to was to hold the youngest girl child down (12mths/15mths old) while her brother pushed a stick up between her legs…
      That happened on the nature strip outside my house, was witnessed also by my gardening fella (who I think is still in therapy - & yes I stepped in!)... The cops were totally disinterested. It took many phone calls to get the correct Childrens Services dpt which was equally shocked - but nobody turned up at the house that i’m aware of.

      These kids, all 8 of them terrorise anyone they think is ‘different’ (ahem - me thinks it’s this tribe that’s ‘‘different’‘) They have NO boundaries wot-so-evah. I can only imagine what they will be like as teenagers - am not hanging around to find out! “Mummy’ leaves the tribe to bring themselves up, only stepps in to scream abuse at them. Belongs to bikie gang and before driving/riding anywhere dumps the empty booze bottles she/latest boyfriend have drunk into the recycle bin.

      In the 6mths this tribes been in the street some of the other children who live here have gone feral with them.

      Why an essentially single parent would have 8 children in this day is beyond me. I do NOT blame the children, they know no different.
      So, yes. Don’t think for a moment that Australia hasn’t spawned it’s own like those in the UK. But the media labelling them “devil children’’ won’t help these boys -  and I’ve gotta hope that they can be helped.  I’m very torn about what should happen to children with rubbish parents.

    • Eric says:

      11:29am | 01/02/10

      “Why an essentially single parent would have 8 children in this day is beyond me.”

      Because she can.

      Thank you, welfare state.

    • Francis Forbes says:

      11:47am | 01/02/10

      They are a result of the society they live in. On many levels generally speaking. these factors take thier toll on kids.

      - abuse with in the family
      - no structure to family life
      - the high divorce rate often no father figure for boys
      - drinking and drug abuse by parents
      - diet, high suger , high preservatives = wacko kids, when can of coke contains 9 teaspoons of sugar and they drink 4 a day what hope do you have.
      - the undermining of the basic family structure by media and minority groups
      - undermining of police and social workers
      - no respect for other people
      - no respect for themselves
      - the ease of availabilty of porn and very violent and horror movies
      - often never punished for thier actions. i.e commited minor offences and got little more than a talking to.
      - high level of materialism


      The kids may well be devils but the are products of our devil society, they are to blame now but we ( yes Australia as well need to have a good hard look at what we expect for out future generations)

    • Eric says:

      02:10pm | 01/02/10

      Vicki PS @ 12:36pm:

      Your meaning eludes me.  What are you trying to say?

    • Vicki PS says:

      12:36pm | 01/02/10

      Parthenogenesis again, Eric?

    • Ben says:

      04:00pm | 01/02/10

      Touche’ Eric - couldn’t have said it better myself

    • Michael says:

      03:45am | 02/02/10

      Well on the bright side at least they are recycling

    • Sad sad story says:

      11:14am | 01/02/10

      It’s called CASH benefits. People on benefits should NO LONGER be given cash, they should get rent vouchers, food vouchers, clothes vouchers, school fee vouchers. My reasoning is summed up in one sentence in the article

      “Before he abandoned the family they were spending $800 a week in benefits on alcohol and drugs, with the boys told to scavenge skips behind the local supermarket if they were hungry”

      You keep giving cold, hard, cash to these filthy parents (who probably had the kids to get the baby bonus cash) then there will me MANY MANY more cases like this, it will happen here, I revert to an article on deliquent kids here not long ago. Benefits in cash…....encourages scum to cheat the system. If they want cash for drugs, booze and cigs then spend you own money not tax payer dollars.

      I am sure these filth will still find ways to abuse the system, but at least make it a hell of a lot harder to do.

    • Bug Catcher says:

      11:34am | 01/02/10

      The simple answer to the problem of too many feral children in Australia is Gough Whitlam!
      He was the “man” who introduced the “Single Mothers Pension” to Australia back in the seventies.
      Since then we have really seen a change in the family unit. The worst of mothers can have as many children as they like because the Govt. is the “father” to all of them.  Actually it is more like us the taxpayers who is the father.  You could forgive a girl getting knocked up once, even twice, but NO more than that.  There should be a cut off point to discourage unwanted children to feral parents. They use their children to pay for their sordid social activities, drugs and alcohol.
      Govt. Departments are stretched to the limit and the breeding of the unwanted children introduces cold hearted unloved unwashed humanity into our society.
      Usually their parents [If they happen to have two] are the last to ever volunteer at schools or in the community.  They think we owe them something.
      A sad world, but as I said Gough Whitlam can take some of the blame.

    • DG says:

      12:17pm | 01/02/10

      “You could forgive a girl getting knocked up once, even twice, but NO more than that. “

      No, no you can’t. Everyone knows what causes pregnancy. If you can’t afford to support kids, keep your pants on.

    • PkrPlyr says:

      12:53pm | 02/02/10

      Right on Bug Catcher. Single mothers and deadbeat dads are to blame for most (if not all) of the social problems we have in western society. As for welfare, you are spot on. Its like when you go to a wildlife park and they have signs that say don’t feed the animals - cause if you do feed the animals they become dependent on handouts and completely unable to fend for themselves. Just like these useless, uneducated welfare dependent type people. It’s easy to hate them but personally I feel sorry for them. They’re so ignorant and dumb they don’t even know how worthless they truly are.

    • Sad sad story says:

      11:48am | 01/02/10

      From the sounds of your neighbours they are not far off what these filthy kids in London did…..not far at all if they are raping their baby sister with a stick…...I need therapy now too after you story, I actually need to be physically sick.

      OMG…...Systems where cash is thrown at scum like that WILL NEVER WORK. Stop givinig these people cash….they should get vouchers that can only be redeemed for food, clothing, rent, school/day care or permanent care fees.

      You say why would someone have 8 babies…...well in Australia those 8 babies are worth about $45000 in cash upon delivery into this world…..that is where the sickness comes from

    • James says:

      12:05pm | 01/02/10

      That is a staggering thought Sad sad story - $45000 - if only it were an exaggeration, but sadly it is entirely true.

      My child was born when I was 20.  At the time, I had just started university.  We got $800.  That covered a few months of essentials like nappies, formula and other ancillary items.  I relied on welfare until finishing my honours year, since when we have relied on my PhD scholarship.  I have to say that we would not have minded at all getting our welfare payments in the way you describe, perhaps with a small cash element for us to spend what was left on things we wanted.  I would argue that the only ones who complain about such ideas are those who do the wrong thing to begin with.

    • waldo says:

      11:59am | 01/02/10

      Hysterical post, hysterical comments. Society has ALWAYS thrown up extreme cases like this. It’s because we now have 24 hour scream media that we hear about it more.
      There’s 60 million people in Britain which area is 250000 kms, just a little bigger than Victoria, pop. 4 million. The resultant societal problems are unknown here.
      The Murphy brothers (who butchered Juanita Cobby) were the product of the same sort of family.
      There will always feral children from bad families wreaking havoc within the community. This extends to stupid teenagers who kill themselves and several of their mates on the road due to their utterly brainless behaviour.
      As for Bug Catcher blaming Gough; you sir, are a poltroon.

    • northern monkey says:

      12:25pm | 01/02/10

      right on, waldo. good post. and good use of the word “poltroon”.

    • Tom says:

      12:45pm | 01/02/10

      I was waiting for a reasonable response to this story.

      Everyone always assumes these kinds of things didn’t happen ‘in their day’. What a load of rot.

      They did and they always will. It’s extremely sad but there will always be people on the fringes of society doing things that the rest of us find abhorrent, welfare state or not.

    • Julia Burns says:

      12:46pm | 01/02/10

      Here here! Thank you for being a voice of reason!

      Blaming some people’s disgusting behaviour on the “Single Mother Pension” (the terminology itself reveals a sexual bias towards blaming women for ‘getting knocked up’ and letting the fathers off scott-free) is absolute nonsense.

      And “forgiveness” for having children outside of a relationship? Bug Catcher,  what kind of 1950s throwback are you?

    • 6clegs says:

      12:01am | 02/02/10

      ‘‘waldo’’ - if you’re suggesting that I was ‘‘hysterical’’ when i typed that - no, i wasn’t. I would be dead from a heart attack if i remained in an ‘‘hysterical’’ state with all their antics.

      Yes, they have upset me greatly, and pressed buttons that i thought were no longer ‘pressable’, but i assure you that i was quite relaxed when i wrote that post.
      If i’ve mistaken your use of the word ‘‘hysterical’‘, or your comments weren’t aimed at me - then I apologise. grin

    • Zeta says:

      12:13pm | 01/02/10

      I love watching where people put the blame in tragedies like this. It’s always the system’s fault for either not doing enough, or doing too much. It’s always the Government’s fault, the Prime Minister’s fault. Then it’s the parents fault. They’re not allowed to discipline their children anymore. Maybe it’s their fault because they did. Some times, it’s even the kid’s fault. Maybe they’re just plain evil. Or it must be society’s fault, the media’s fault. It’s because our culture is permeated with violence and misogyny. It’s teacher’s that don’t care. It’s institutions. It’s God. It’s because God has foresaken us.

      Nobody ever says ‘It’s my fault.’ We won’t admit to that. And thus, we have our answer. It’s not about parental responsibility. It’s about personal responsibility. Yours and mine. We are all culpible because we see children being raised poorly, or not at all, and we do nothing. We say nothing. We see them rampaging through our trains and buses and we simply turn up the volume on our iPods and stare out the window. We say that ‘it’s not our place to do anything’, we blame the parents and the Government and video games. How many people saw these two children acting up in public and ignored it? They’re just as responsibile as the system that failed them and the parents that neglected them.

      I can think of few people in my life who might be able to put their hand on their heart and say they took responsibility when no one else would. I certaintly don’t, I’m lazy, and I morbidly enjoy watching bad situations escalate. My mother took responsibility when she saw children in strife. We would have to drive through a really grotty housing commission area on our way to school when I was very small, and I remember she’d pull over and pick truant children up and take them with her. She’d see the little miscreants wandering around and she’d take them back to their parents, who’d give her an earfull about over stepping her mark. It might not have made much of a difference. I imagine those kids probably grew up and had their own foul, brick throwing spawn. But imagine if we all did that. Imagine if everytime we saw a kid acting up, we intervened. Told them to stop being dicks. People will probably reply and say ‘I’m a saint, I call Community Services when I hear the neighbours beating their kids’ but that’s just passing the buck. How many people go and knock on the door, and put themselves between children and harms way?

      I believe some people are just bad. But I also believe bad people are kept in check when they know they can’t get away with being bad. Knowing that responsibility rests with the Government, with the system, emboldens bad people, bad parents, and bad children, because they know the system moves slowly, and is impersonal. They know an individual won’t come up to them and throw their bad behaviour back in their face.

      Anyone who expects the Government to fix this stuff is stupid and lazy. You have to fix it. Next time you see the neighbourhood kids acting up, pull the car over, get out, and take them to task. Take their parents to task too if they arc up. If you see neglect, don’t wait for the system to take care of it. It’s your responsibility because you saw it. I’m not even going to mention the applicable quote about evil florishing because good people do nothing because it would be gratuitous.

    • Greeneggs says:

      12:29pm | 02/02/10

      This comment resonates with me. I was on the train the other day at going home from work/school time and a young man was in the foyer area smoking. Apart from me (not physically intimidating sized woman) there were two high school girls, a young tradie and a middle aged business man. No-one said anything. I glared, but didn’t dare confront him. In the past I have spoken out, but the abuse I get back scares me so much I stopped.

    • TheBigMicka says:

      12:17pm | 01/02/10

      Here’s a good idea - let’s grow the population to 35 million by 2030!

    • Bug Catcher says:

      12:27pm | 01/02/10

      If I was a wretched coward, I would not have written my words. I would ignore the problem, like most people chose to do and say nothing.
      I was just mentioning the root cause!

    • monkeytypist says:

      12:28pm | 01/02/10

      What’s changed about “Broken Britain” since the days when it was “great” is nothing, except that thanks to modern communications networks the class division and societal alienation that has always characterised the country is more visible and more easily felt.

    • Sad sad story says:

      12:36pm | 01/02/10

      Hi James,

      I agree that the vast majority of people who need the help are awesome parents like you, and do put the money towards the needs of the baby 100% when they had a little surprise.

      All the best for your future and, you Sir are an inspiration to all who might experience the unexpected but get on with life in the best ways.

      If only more people were like you!!!

    • SM says:

      12:38pm | 01/02/10

      There’s nothing that can be done.  It follows that as the kids of dickhead parents grow up and have their own, and their kids do the same, the situation gets progressively worse.  Govt will do nothing, except throw wasted money at hopeless reactionary groups like Docs. And the police

      On the whole, society is largely made up of people who couldn’t give a rats about anyone but themselves. Examples like this are the (albiet very extreme) sharp edge of that. 

      If you live in a bad area, and are concerned about the standard of the neighbourhood, save up and move to a better one.  Otherwise, get used to it. 

      Zeta’s ideas are noble, but these people are beyond help.  Just avoid them, spend your time with decent people, and hope for the best

    • AdamC says:

      01:01pm | 01/02/10

      While we have to be careful about media hysteria in these cases, there is no doubt that – in Australia at least – child welfare problems appear to be increasing.

      The immediate causes are fairly self-evident: neglect and abuse generated by parental apathy and drug or alcohol addiction. The ‘root causes’ are surely idleness in the form of unemployment and family breakdown. Hence the single mother with a whole brood of kids: nothing better to do with her time than conceive them, and no husband to restrain her recreation (but a series of boyfriends to assist it).

      As to what can be done, it is difficult. Certainly some kind of welfare reform is essential.

    • H of SA says:

      01:26pm | 01/02/10

      Hi Adam,

      Your right about welfare reform - and most states in Australia have had held inquiries into the reforms needed - some changes have been made but child protection continues to be underfunded so the reforms can be piecemeal/ineffective or simply not budjeted for.

      However the fact is we need not just welfare reform but community attitudes reform. No government in Australia can afford what it would cost to deal with the issue effectively. It would bankrupt the government or we would have to pay a lot more tax.

      Government can’t do the communities job. Child protection is the communities responsibility - as long as we shirk it then any welfare system will fail. Calling and reporting it won’t do the job cuz there just ain’t enough police and social workers. People need to actually start standing up to their friends/acquaintances that abuse. Neglecting mums who have no idea how to parent (cuz they were never parented themselves) could do with a visit from someone on their street just to show them how to cook something cheap and nutritious for the kids.

      The majority of abusers don’t actually want to abuse - and with some more support from the community wouldn’t abuse or neglect. But if the community continues to say - its governments job we will leave government to do it, we shouldn’t hold our breath waiting for something to happen.

    • Peter Thornton says:

      01:03pm | 01/02/10

      Yesterday, while descending the Roseville Bridge, the driver of a 4-wheel drive vehicle in the adjoining carriage way was on his mobile phone. As my window was already wound down, and because his children were riding shotgun in the near side rear passenger seat, I yelled out, ‘get off the ‘phone, you bogan imbecile’. I don’t think he was deterred from his conversation, zeta. I am not surprised.

    • Judy Shepherd says:

      01:12pm | 01/02/10

      Once, not so long ago, it was considered a moral sham to bring a child into the world before we were either ready or at the least part of a family unit…children of those mothers who could simply not abort chose often instead to give both of these infants - the newborn and its often too young mother a better chance in life….I grew up knowing so many adopted children and in the main they thrived in loving adoptive families - it was a win win for almost everyone.  Then, for some misguided reason we decided that every child,  every time, should be with its biological mother.  This has continued to be the case, in fact has been socially and financially encouraged and at the same time we as a society have decided we are above dicipline, either parental of self…..and slowly the world is going to shit….

      Time to stop this change for change sake mentality that we seem to be so enraptured with….my generation of self-deluded love-all hippies caused the problem….hopefully my kids generation of new-conservative over-pampered immature children will by default, self-interest, or pure laziness, fix the mess.

      Its just becoming so so sad…

    • James says:

      01:21pm | 01/02/10

      I was probably not ready when my daughter was born Judy, but now I am so very glad that we let her come to term, and did not put her up for adoption.  Had we adopted her out, she would have lost two loving parents, and we would have lost the most beautiful girl in the world.  I do not consider our decision to make the best of our situation as being misguided.  It is not as simple as old ways = good; new ways = bad.

    • Eric says:

      01:35pm | 01/02/10

      Judy, this is called “feminism”.

      The single mother rules over all, and must be supported. Never mind the damage to society.

    • Ben says:

      04:16pm | 01/02/10

      OMG Judy what a fantastic post!  As a gen X, I’m so angry about the current state of society and its attitudes and extremely upset about gen Y’s vacuous values that I have to slap myself in fear of rising up as a brutal facist dictator ready to weild the government scalpel and cut out the poisonous cancer in our modern society that seems to manifest as shamelessness and can be fixed with one simple mandate - “enforced personal responsibility”

    • stealthpooch says:

      01:45pm | 01/02/10

      I agree Liz. Australia is not immune to these problems. 

      Head into the Northern Suburbs of Hobart and you can see the effects of inter-generational welfare dependency.  I was in Big W in Glenorchy a couple of months ago and a bogan mum was telling her small girl (about 7 years old?) to put the toy down her jumper if she wants it.  Nice. 

      A trip through the local bus mall during business hours is equally as enlightening:  mums and dads in tracksuits with cigarettes hanging out of their mouths, screaming abuse at their kids, using words that no child should have to hear, and threatening punishments that are no less than child abuse. 

      This is the reason why Tasmania’s juvenile detention centre is swarming with these poor neglected kids - if you have parents that treat you like that, who teach you how to steal, demonstrate that physical and verbal abuse is okay, it’s no wonder they turn out to be criminals.

    • Zeta says:

      02:35pm | 01/02/10

      Now that brings back memories. Tasmanian bus malls taught me the definition of irony and made me the man I am today. Why is it that Tasmania’s under privlidged congregate in bus malls when none of them are going anywhere? Why is the official uniform of Tasmanian bogans, spray-on-stove pipes, flanalette shirts and dirty dunlops the same as worn by Sydney’s inner city, latte sipping elite? I bet I know which bus mall you’re talking about too, in Glenorchy, across the road from the council chambers. I once saw a fight there that makes Kings Cross or the Battle of Thermopolae look like the WWE. I wish we had have had camera phones back then. Those were some amazing bogans. God’s own prototypes. Where ever you go in Australia, bogans can be easily identified by the unique suffixies they place at the end of their sentences. In NSW, it’s ‘but’, as in ‘I’m goin to score some eckies, but’, so if there is always an unspoken, other option. In Queensland, it’s ‘eh’, as in ‘goin get us another carton a bundies eh?’, as if all statements lack definition, and are of themselves, questions. In Tasmania, the under class’s suffix of choice is ‘ngh’, occassionaly used as a prefix. To acheive this miracle of human speech, you need to curl the upper left quadrant of your lip into a snarl. Helps if you’re smoking. ‘ngh, give us a smoke ngh’. Glorious.

      But in all seriousness, Tasmania has done amazing things in the last decade. They have this incredible interaction between employment NGOs, community services and the State Government that has done really remarkable things to the State.

      Chances are, while those parents you see in the Northgate Shopping Centre might never have jobs, their children will, thanks to them being identified early as being at risk by the public school sector, and diverted to VET and other employment programs instead of being forced through years 11 and 12 that they have no interest in. Tasmania has one of the best unemployment rates in the Nation now, and the highest rate of home owner ship at 80 per cent. The days of the Bridgewater Bogan, second generation housing department tenants without jobs or job prospects are a thing of the past. Those same kids who once graduated to a life spent knocking up and knocking around the missus, whilst engaging in petty theft and binge drinking on the side are being turned into apprentices feeding the skills shortage as Tasmania builds more houses to meet increased demand.

      Tasmania isn’t perfect, but it’s doing a lot better than the rest of the country.

    • James says:

      03:04pm | 01/02/10

      I used to live in Toowoomba, and back then the bogan hangout of choice was the bus stop out the front of the shopping centre in the city called Village Fair - now named Gardentown.  In Canberra, it is much the same - every central district here has bogans hanging around bus exchanges, begging money “for the bus” that you know will go towards the cigarettes they are smoking, or the rum can concealed in a paper bag in their hand.  What is it about bogans and bus exchanges?  My theory is that it is where you find lots of people with loose change in their pockets.

    • Razor says:

      01:49pm | 01/02/10

      Yes, there are always goign to be the poor, dilinquent and disadvantaged.  However, there has been a significant fall in the power and respect for groups like the Police, Schools teachers and various welfare authoirities.  the rise of human rights bullshit also means that delinquent parents’ rights are seen as more important than whether they are able to parent competently or retain access to children.  An example here in Australia is the fear of removing aboriginal children from their families and placing them with non-aboriginal families.

      I recommend that anybody who is a parent of 3 or more children and reliant on welfare to survive should be offered $5,000 for the mother to have her tubes tied and the father(s) of her children to have a vasectomy.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      02:13pm | 01/02/10

      Of course the main fault in this sorry situation lies with the parents of these monsters, but much of the blame should be aimed squarely at the namby-pamby snivel-libertarian do-gooder types who flatly refuse to accept that people should be accountable for their own actions - and of course the gutless vote-grabbing politicians who let them get away with it. They’re so caught up in their delusional PC ideology that reality has become a completely foreign concept to them.

      Karma ran over their dogma long ago.

    • James says:

      02:47pm | 01/02/10

      Exactly.  The type of people who do not accept that breaking the law can often result in punishment, and have no sense of accountability for their actions…

    • Charles Kelly says:

      03:54pm | 01/02/10

      No, draconian law enforcement is part is the problem, as it breeds a culture of disrespect for the law. Currently many people are targeted for trivial offences just so the government can give the appearance of “taking action”, while those guilty of far more serious offences are ignored. This gives rise to the opinion that the law as it currently stands is a joke - and rightly so.

    • James says:

      04:14pm | 01/02/10

      That approach, according to some anyway, worked in New York.  According to others though, it was not the zero tolerance approach (which went as far as arresting jaywalkers and people urinating in public - very common in New York) that led to the decrease in crime, but instead it was Roe vs Wade, and the resultant increase in poor peoples’ access to abortion.  Either option is not very a palatable thought, to my mind - imagine a choice between vastly increased rates of abortion and draconian law enforcement.  I guess the question is: are there any other options?

    • Charles Kelly says:

      05:00pm | 01/02/10

      Frankly, if they threw in vastly increased rates of sterilisation (starting with the mother of these two monsters) with the vastly increased rates of abortion, I’d be all for it.

      I’d much prefer that potentially unsuitable and irresponsible parents have ready access to retroactive contraception than unwanted children are forced to suffer.

    • James says:

      09:59am | 02/02/10

      Or maybe you could just drive around our primary schools in poorer areas…

    • Lamington says:

      02:47pm | 01/02/10

      Lets just hope they don’t send these disfunctional kids down here!! They seem to be a dumping ground for all these ratbag kids..someone please tell them we are not a penal colony anymore. We have our problems with our children, I to know a few on welfare with 5 or 6 children who just run amoke. And I honestly wonder was more money the reason they had these children. It desperatly saddens me because what sort of adults will these kids make? And its not their fault, you need love and caring to grow up to be a functioning individual. Fortunalty we have some wonderful Australian parents, who children are a delight, that gives you hope

    • James says:

      03:01pm | 01/02/10

      The hardest part for me, in seeing these kids and how they live, is that there really is nothing at all you can do.  When I see my daughter’s contemporaries at her school, coming to school without lunch, or books, and unable to read at age seven, all I want to do is take them home and give them what my own child has.  If only there was some effective way of addressing these issues, but every initiative just seems to make things worse, or at best, does nothing at all.  Maybe it is time to tear up the rulebook and start from scratch?

    • bella starkey says:

      03:09pm | 01/02/10

      YAY EUGENICS!!!!

    • Ben says:

      03:41pm | 01/02/10

      This article made me cry…........  Imagine if this happened to your own children…...

      These kids are sooo damaged they must be put down and the parents tried in the 1st degree, as if they commited the crimes themselves.

    • Bugalug says:

      03:48pm | 01/02/10

      E> Judy, this is called “feminism”.

      E> The single mother rules over all, and must be supported. Never mind the
      E> damage to society.

      Maybe it is just that the single mother has been given (almost) the same ability to shirk their responsibly as the biological father that ups and runs.  Why not rail against these absent fathers since both parties are essentially acting in the same manner?  Feminism may have exposed the me-me-me attitude of women, but only to the point of emulating the male attitude that has existed for quite some time.  Is it solely women’s responsibility to save the world from feral children, or is it just convenient to say that it is?

    • Eric says:

      06:16pm | 01/02/10

      Bugalug, in our society it is women only who have the right to choose abortion, women overwhelmingly who have the right to child custody, and women overwhelmingly who have the right to become single parents.

      Therefore, single mothers are responsible for the choices they make.

      (P.S. This is a general statement - in this particular case it was both parents who were responsible)

    • Judy says:

      08:00pm | 01/02/10

      Children deserve two parents that want them….this is the best case scenario - it doesn’t mean that a single parent can’t do the job - they are many that can and continue to do so - often against all the odds.

      It really does not matter if those parents are the biological ones or not….genetics does not give you the right to stuff-up a child for life….where adoption was once a noble and rightous thing to do - both for the young mother and the child - now it is shameful, why??  Isn’t it better to admit at the outset that your not ready and give someone else the opportunity to enrich a baby’s life.  In these enlightened times it not mean relinquishing all future contact with a child. 

      This is such a better alternative than treating children like pets or worse toys.

    • Bugalug says:

      01:47am | 02/02/10

      Eric>Therefore, single mothers are responsible for the choices they make.

      Everybody is responsible for the choices they make to be sure.  I was replying to your statement that “feminism” is in some way damaging to society.  If the only way to keep society in order is to not grant equal rights to all participants, then it is broken.  This goes both ways.

    • stephen says:

      04:13pm | 01/02/10

      Sterilize,sterilize, I am perfect.
      Wasn’t there a post on yesterday’s Punch about this ?

    • Frank Merlot says:

      06:52pm | 01/02/10

      To 6clegs:  At least she recycles!  :oP

    • 6clegs says:

      11:36pm | 01/02/10

      grin  yep. LOL. (I’ve gotta laugh - or i’d be crying all day every day) amazed it took so long for someone to twig to that.

      “zeta’’ - I did try speaking to the ‘mother’ shortly after they moved in, offered help [but not babysitting - i don’t do babysitting]. I was polite, wasn’t being judgemental, just trying to be a ‘good neighbour’....  when boyfriend got home he burst out their backdoor and yelled ” ya dirty b***h mind ya own business!!!!!’’ at me while i was speaking to someone at my front door - among other *threats* when i turned my back on him. naice.
      The Supreme Court here in Launceston has dealt with 3 different murders ths last 12mths:1 victim put a wheelie bin in the middle of the road to stop a car load of hoons. So they beat him to death.

      Another victim stopped a car for directions - they ran him over - and over, and over again.

      The third victim had complained to police about noise and bad behaviour. For that he was beaten and left to die - which he did on Christmas day in hospital.
      These all happened within a 5/10 minute drive of where i live.
      I’m a single woman, she and her boyfriends are bikies. I’m quite at ease dealing with 17hand horses that muck up, but i couldn’t fight my way out of a paper bag, or even know how to. (‘self defence’ classes won’t help with idjits like these - i’ve done them) So I’m not in any hurry to step in between them when they’re going at it hammer n tongs.

      ngh. wink

    • Arios says:

      08:11pm | 01/02/10

      Oh it’s so obvious isn’t it? We pay these people to have children!

      Scrap the benefits. How about: Only have kids if you WANT them.

      Then yes also pay these people some cash to become sterile (pain free). It’s honestly the smartest thing to do and we would see a dramatic reduction in young scum bags being raised in years to come.

      You have to be “harsh” to a few who are already harsh to their own, in order to be kind to the greater majority.

    • ~Rumpleteazer~ says:

      07:55am | 02/02/10

      The saddest part of this whole story.
      There are many beautiful loving Australian couples out there who would love to adopt a child of there own.
      There are non available these days.
      Only fostering and you can love a child so much then have it snatched out of our heart at the whim of the parents.
      Very few children are given up for adoption. Mostly special needs babies and you have to be a special Mum to take on this role.

    • N says:

      11:56am | 02/02/10

      I wouldn’t want to adopt children that are born to people like this. I’m sorry, but there is no way I would take a chance at these trogs coming back into the kid’s life when the child turns 18.

    • Harquebus says:

      04:22pm | 02/02/10

      What society breeds these kids? Today’s society.

    • Sam says:

      01:44pm | 03/02/10

      There *would* be something to do if they were hungry. The government feeds them, the system tries to look after them, so they end up with a lot of spare time.

      Why should we feel guilty if we choose to not water the weeds? They are weeds aren’t they? You gotta be cruel to be kind, and you’re not helping them with your “softly softly they’re only kids” delusional attitude.

      Angels become devils when the fear of God is gone.

    • Steve of Cornubia says:

      06:14pm | 03/02/10

      Only yesterday an Australian woman who gave her 5yo son alcohol - sufficient to get him drunk and hospitalised, was given a suspended sentence….....

      Police had called for her to be jailed, as she had breached two previous suspended sentences, one for drunk driving and another for leaving her three children alone while she went out drinking. The kids were all under 10yo.

      The magistrate/judge was lenient because she had (another) young child. Surprise!

      Even less surprising was the news that she no longer lived with the father of her new get-out-of-jail-free card was no longer on the scene.

      Maybe she couldn’t pick him out of the line up.

    • sydneysider says:

      06:16am | 06/02/10

      Thanks to the ability to look at the massive disaster emerging in the UK after 50 years of the welfare state, Australia has a choice to make to save itself.  As others have said, stop paying people who are bad parents to be parents.  Make welfare a condition on having NO more kids. Make RU486 implants and the snip conditional on getting welfare.  Both reversable.

      I LIKE paying taxes to help people fallen on hard times through illness, accident, or bad luck.  But only enough to get them to help themselves back onto a normal life.

    • Peaches Delight says:

      10:40pm | 10/02/10

      Perhaps Heath Aston, if you regard this British society as so messed up and depraved, you should take your little self back to Australia where you can inflict your closed minded sensationalist rubbish freely. Unless you have something positive and insightful to offer to this horrific story, maybe you should keep it to yourself or change your day job.

 

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