Now our Melbourne Cup flutters are out of the way it is worth investigating how it became valid political logic that the healthy fabric of Australian life would be shredded without big-scale gambling.

One pokie palace so big it wants its own post code

Not on horses, but gambling on pokies. Not by once-a-year punters or leviathan professionals, by low-income earners who can suddenly find their rent has disappeared down the maw of a gaming machine.

The glorified role of pokies is a political creation and it is total rubbish.

In fact a lot of rubbish is emerging from the crypt of stupidities where it should have been sealed for eternity. There is pro-pokie madness in the air.

Remember when Cate Blanchett was close to being burned at the stake for supporting a price on carbon in a TV advertisement in which she shared the screen with five others? How dare a rich woman advocate something that would increase household expenses.

But recently, billionaire gambling magnate James Packer turned up to make his thoughts clear on Government plans to introduce mandatory pre-commitment for bets on “intensive” gaming machines. The idea is to help problem gamblers keep their money.

There was no pillorying Packer for speaking out while being a wealthy owner of international casino interests. There was an obedient hush as - surprise, surprise - he objected to the policy.

What a shock.

Blanchett and Packer are perfectly entitled to make their minds known on important public issues, but it seems some elitists are worthier than others when it suits this climate of pro-pokie madness.

One reason the rubbish is being distributed so effectively is that the mandatory pre-commitment policy is not Government policy. It was forced on them by independent MP Andrew Wilkie as a condition of his support for a minority government.

The carbon pricing scheme also is a policy which belongs to someone else, in this case the Greens.

But the fact the Government doesn’t own outright the gambling policy is a more stark instance, and this absence of clear and unencumbered title is making the Government vulnerable to political campaigns.

Those campaigns are largely based on the proposition that suburban Australia would not have the facilities it does today without the massive amounts of cash delivered by row upon row of poker machines, configured to never lose at the end of the day, in local clubs.

This isn’t a national argument. The social fabric of communities in Western Australia, South Australia, Victoria and Tasmania seem to get along intact without the huge pokie concentrations of Queensland and NSW.

But apparently the Government’s proposals are a national affront, and a guaranteed wrecker of communities, say the clubs and their political allies.

Yesterday, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott visited a bowling club in the Canberra suburb of Turner.

“Mandatory pre-commitment is the price millions of Australians are having to pay to save Julia Gillard’s job,” said Mr Abbott, who about a year ago offered Wilkie a $1 billion Hobart hospital for his support of a Coalition minority government.

He said gambling paid for not only games of bowls, but also for facilities used by a local choral group.

“The interesting thing is that the bowling facilities here are funded at least in part by the revenue that is generated from the poker machines. You want to be as confident as you can be that people are only putting what they can afford through the poker machines.

“But we have to accept the reality that there are an enormous number of community facilities in NSW, Queensland and the ACT which are funded in this way, and if the funding source is no longer there, or if the clubs supplying the funding are burdened up with unnecessary additional costs it’s going to be much harder.”

Perth bowls clubs, apparently, are in “a different situation”, said Abbott.

“If you were starting from scratch you would probably do a whole lot of things differently,” he acknowledged.

So poker machines are not pivotal to community development, and are not an optimal revenue source for that development, Abbott concludes. Therefore, we can conclude they are vital only to poker machine clubs.

Now, here’s a radical view - at least radical for the current Liberal Party: What if all that money lost to poker machines instead was spent in the local high street where individuals not clubs were powering enterprise?

What if that dough instead went to the florist, the newsagency, the dress-maker’s shop, restaurants, the milk bar, book stores, the panel beater, the butcher, the baker, the quartz-halogen lamp maker?

This would be a superior, more effective, more socially safe way of spreading a community’s money and strengthening that community.

Poker machine money gets skimmed for taxes, club expenses and profits, and then maybe some makes it way to local sports groups or charities.

Same, to a degree, with local businesses, who would be hiring staff and adding life to moribund precincts. The difference is nobody has gone broke and been forced to sell their home to pay debts from shopping at a milk bar or a news agency.

But those small enterprises find survival difficult and in pokie-riddled areas it is because the pokie palaces are sucking the cash and the consumer interest out of a locality.

And that is what we are meant to be championing, it seems.

 

147 comments

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    • Peter says:

      05:43am | 04/11/11

      The bad side of poker machines pales to insignificance when it compares to this disastrous Labor Government. Thanks to the worst Goverrnment in Australias’ history working families as well as the vast majority are much worse off. The damage already done by the most dishonest, most incompetent and by far the worst Government in Australia’s history wiil take many years to fix and taxpayers will be working longer hours just to pay the increase in living expenses. Working families are doing it so much tougher while the Nation continues to go backwards fast. Being a sucker for Labors spin and lies it’s no wonder Malcolm does not want to talk about this disastrous Government. A big embarressment for you isn’t it comrade.

    • crizza says:

      08:04am | 04/11/11

      the big lie that this is the worst government is spin - there is only one reason this lie gets credence - Abbott and his lackeys, like you Peter, keep repeating it often and loud, loud, loud. But in truth, it seems every proposition that has merit for the country is smashed down by Abbott simply because he sees that the politically expedient way to win the “game”. Keep lying, keep smashing, then get power and…and…oh, who cares about what happens then.

    • Peter#2 says:

      10:10am | 04/11/11

      @Peter - what an idiotic rant which has nothing to do with the article or topic.  Obviously a troll.

    • Martin says:

      10:20am | 04/11/11

      @crizza. What complete Labor bullshit. You just keep your head in the sand and ignore pink batts, BER, NBN, Carbon tax, MRRT, the Malaysian solution, the East Timor sloution, the PNG solution, Grocery watch, Fuel watch, computers in schools, super GP clinics, child care centres and all the other stuff ups that have occurred in the last 4 years. Fair dinkum, Labor people.

    • crizza says:

      11:46am | 04/11/11

      Well, I can see you’ve fallen for it Martin. I’m not a laborite - but I do have to admit a prejudice against Abbott, based on the experience of him gainsaying everything in his unyielding quest for power. I have to work, so can’t waste too much time going through every part of your tory mantra, but much of what you claim as failures are nothing of the sort. They are big ideas that will obviously need work and will get some flak because they are big ideas. NBN - a great idea and a work in progress; carbon tax - an excellent compromise that can benefit us into the future (except for Dr No rather seeing the country go down the gurgler than do anything positive), resource tax - a chance to alleviate the two-speed economy problems and get a fair share of our resource sales.  And what about the GFC - if we’d have had the coalition in power then, we wouldn’t have avoided the worst of it. But keep listening to that big loud lie, it will make it easier for you to rant and rave in the pub on a Friday night.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      12:06pm | 04/11/11

      @crizza

      The problem with people like Martin is they can’t get their small minds around big ideas. The problem for people like us, with people like him, is that they get to vote.

    • Nick says:

      01:53pm | 04/11/11

      Thats right Blind Fred,the majority of people who agree with Martin (about54% V the piddling 30% who agree with you) get to vote.Can’t wait!

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      05:33pm | 04/11/11

      Oh for heaven’s sake, Howard will always have the mantle of worst ever even if you can’t stand Gillard.

      And you did not address the issue of these lying scumbags sucking the life out of communities.

      Pokies are designed only to steal from those who put their money in and have no earthly other purpose.

    • Bev says:

      05:49am | 04/11/11

      We all talk of problem gamblers but this article has touched on another aspect of gambling which is more wide spread.  A friend of mine runs ceramic classes and built a business teaching and supplying the equipment and firing the finished articles.  When poker machines were introduced her business took a dive.  She found people (mostly women) were skimping on glazes, brushes, greenware etc.  Why because they had to have money to put into the pokies on the way home.  Some may say that ceramics are not exactly number one in creative art (true) but its a better than mindlessly sitting in front of a machine pressing buttons. She eventually sold off the business as it was just too much of a struggle.

    • Fiona says:

      06:37am | 04/11/11

      That is truly sad. I imagine that other arty type classes have suffered too. At least you can produce something from these sort of interests. What do pokies produce?

    • Joan says:

      06:52am | 04/11/11

      Thanks for a laugh - ceramics classes closed cos of pokies - now
      that `s a long bow to draw if ever. Ceramics classes were just a passing fad like collecting pet rocks.baking bread, patchwork ,etc etc etc Family members and friends ended up with all sorts garish coloured ducks, plates, mishapen pots and jars as gifts. Everyone breathed a sigh of relief when ceramic class fad was cast aside.  There is no evidence that women headed for the pokies- most probably they charged to pilates classes and yoga,- aromatic oils, spas and Tai Chi.

    • dovif says:

      07:43am | 04/11/11

      Bev

      Did ceramic classes disappear 25 years ago, because in my area poker machine has been around for at least 25 years.

      Again banning pokie machines will not solve anything, just like thinking banning knifes won’t stop people murdering other people and will just be another round of the government trying to control everythingwe do

      Oh the shock horror that people cannot afford their rent because of poker machine. I could say the same thing for anything else for that matter

      In fact, you can fill in the following

      Adam/Eve spend all his/her money on Handbags/ credit card/ car/ stereo system/ casino/ horse racing/ jewelry/ overseas trip and was not able to pay the rent this week

      So we should ban handbags/ credit cards/ horse racing/casino/ cars/ stereo system/ jewelry/ overseas trips?

      As for the stupid argument that Pokies are designed to take your entertainment money, by making it attractive, so are handbags, going to the races, casino, movies, plays, cars, stereo systems, jewelry and oversea trips. Every consumer good does that, or else no one would buy

      So poker machines are not pivotal to community development, and are not an optimal revenue source for that development, Is movies, handbag etc the same, lets ban them too.

      Quite simply, a person who spend all their money on the pokies have personal problems, the banning of pokies, will just push that problem elsewhere and will offer no solution to the social problem

      Noone had been able to explain to me, how someone could put their gambling limit to $5,000 and how that will help someone pay the rent the next week?

    • mick says:

      07:56am | 04/11/11

      Take heart Bev in that there are some posts here made by political plants.  You have touched on a valid point.  Pokies do suck the lifeblood out of families and out of communities.  The 1% of the profit which goes back to communities is similar to the cigarette companies.  They did the same.  In the end both vices are extremely harmful and the pokie industry thrive on the destruction of the lives of addicts. 

      It is wrong but is help up by the same side of politics which wants to give back the mining tax to those who own the most wealth in the country.  Quite perverse when you think about it.

    • Bev says:

      08:49am | 04/11/11

      @Joan @dovif You will note in my post that I said they are not the high point of art.  Granted such things are faddy and some people do move on, some however stay or use it as a launch to other creative exercises.  It does not change the point of this true example as it occured within three years of the introduction of pokies to Victoria.

      @dovif I did not call for a ban on pokies.  It is interesting to note that before the introduction of pokies in Victoria there were pokie weekends.  Buses were chartered by clubs/groups for trips to the border to play pokies in NSW.  The point is these people did not play pokies 24/7 as you can now.  Also often they did other things like walking, playing golf visting local sights and it got people out and about.  So they served more than just playing pokies.

    • dovif says:

      09:36am | 04/11/11

      Bev said

      Also often they did other things like walking, playing golf visting local sights and it got people out and about.  So they served more than just playing pokies.

      I agree there is a social cost of pokies, The issue is how much government intervention do we want, and how much free choice should we have.

      Kids today spend hours in front of the computer/ playstation/ Wii/ X-box, they used to go out and play sport exercise, go walking, visit local sites and go out and about. Places like Australian Wonderland went out of business because kids didn’t go there, kids are more overweight today because of the computer games. Should we ban all computer games?

      You are on a very slippery sloop, once you allow Government to control what you can do and not do

    • Will says:

      11:16am | 04/11/11

      Stop squawking Dovif and friends. No one is trying to control what you can and can’t do. That’s just propoganda being peddled by Clubs Australia and other interested parties but i’m guessing you already know that. If the clubs can’t survive without the proceeds of problem gambling then their business models are fatally flawed.

    • glenm says:

      11:51am | 04/11/11

      @ Will , Dotif makes a valid argument, the article attempts to place the blame for social issues at the feet of Pokies, however I believe the introduction of the television created a bigger negative social impact on communities than the introduction of Pokies. In fact you could argue that the funding of clubs through pokies actually increases social interaction in the community by drawing people out of in front of the TV or computer. If you want to solve a problem gambling issue you need to look at the whole issue and not just focus on one aspect as this legislation does. The government has again failed to think through the consequences of his legislation on the impact on the community and on the the problem gamblers. 
      And in regard to personal freedom well this is the government that also intends to introduce an internet filter. Our personal freedoms are slowly dissapearing.

    • nanny state rubbish says:

      12:45pm | 04/11/11

      Joan you seem so full of yourself, the way you talk about ceramics classes and other topics on the punch. I can tell you are definitely way better than me. Incidently the evidence that “doesn’t exist” came from the posters friend who ran the class and talked with the actual people. Rationalising conservatives like you only love to apply your M.O when it suits you. Narrow thinking.

      I guess dovif you can rightly also rationalise by using the example of your area and projecting that anecdotal data on every other area. And of course all people with gambling problems have the ‘personal problem gene’ which will need to be outletted in some other domain if they don’t get the pokies. Fabtastic stuff - rationality and evidence based understanding for zombies.

      You conservative arrogants and nanny-state screamers will not fight to alter the laws so on the weekends me and my Bolivian buddies can do our lines of ‘Columbias finest’ on the bar at the pub when it is time to party, because your nanny state stuff only applies to your conservative values. You lot are so disingenuous and self righteous that arguing with you is kinda pointless.

    • dovif says:

      02:07pm | 04/11/11

      nanny state rubbish

      You do not argue because I suspect you are incapable of arguing

      To defend people’s right to choose and promotion of civil rights and a reduction of government intervention on civil right. first originated from Social Liberalism in the UK. Social liberalism is actually considered centrist or center left ideals and they led to the creation of the UK Labour Party

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

      Other ideals of Liberalism would include allowing freedom of speech, pro choice, freedom of association, tolerance of gay marriage. It should be as far from the “Religious Right” that I keep hearing about

    • Dave says:

      04:00pm | 04/11/11

      Uh oh. Dovif is another Erick - all quotations of manifestos and conspiricies and theories gleaned from reading too much wikipedia. Combine that with apparently no life experience or a dose of apparent fanaticism and you get a Dovif. Dovif and Joan, Bev’s point is valid and it just requires a bit of commonsense to confirm it: if money goes into pokies then thats at the expense of some other spending (or saving). Thats 100% irrefutable. THe idea that sports and facilities in NSW and other pokie addicted states are particularly benefited by pokies can also easily be refuted: WA has a far sparse population and still manages to field sports teams and sports people at the international standard, not to mention having a thriving recreationals sporting culture. So the “pokies good for sport’ line is crap, and can be shown to be crap. On top of that in perth if I want to show some respect to fallen servicemen I can go down and have a quiet cup of tea or a small meal at a dignified low key RSL club - not one of those big NSW clubs that has prostituted the sacrifices of our war dead to fill their pockets. Best thing to do would be to nuke Sydney. At least that would cauterise the disease and cut all the scrofulous ideas that come out of the place.

    • mick e mause says:

      05:49am | 04/11/11

      What happened to personal responsibilities oops sorry in your brave new world Mal big brother looks after everything. we no longer have to worry about our finances our socialist and Labor government supported by our socialist Canberra press gallery will look after all our needs

    • Timinane says:

      08:15am | 04/11/11

      What happened to the community helping each other instead of just saying it’s personal responsibility and maintaining a status quo.

      One which makes certain people very rich by sucking out all the money from the poor which is reverse socialism and something that should be frowned upon again.

    • mick e mause says:

      11:20am | 04/11/11

      ye mate i know i reverse socialism to the extreme is communism, and its not my job to protect stupid folk who enjoy gambling in whatever form they choose.

    • Steve says:

      02:28pm | 04/11/11

      What else are the Socialist overlords planning on banning next??
      Fishing boats (waste of money), fancy clothes (waste of money), fancy food (waste of money).
      I notice they dont ban things like Art galleries, Cate Blanchet and her w@nker actor mates at the Wharf theatre (waste of money).
      I can’t stand pokies, but it is their money.
      What other grubby plans have Labor / Union / Green goons got in store for us?
      The left is a party of hate, if you’re not on paying your union dues, you are the enemy.

    • Tombowler says:

      03:39pm | 04/11/11

      The problem, Mick e mause (how very droll), is that ‘poker machines’ present a heretofore unseen form of consumer rape. It is not true gambling as has existed in society forever, it is specifically designed at targeting poor people, allowing tiny bets with massive pay-offs so as to bleed them dry $3.00 at a time.

      I am a conservative and a Liberal voter yet I think it patently absurd to suggest ‘personal responsibility’ is the solution. What we see in suburban poker-palaces is something far more insidious than the local pot dealer. It is nothing short of a wilful and deliberate exploitation of the working poor, non-english speakers and desperadoes.

      If Pokie Barons were so keen on the ‘personal responsibility’ argument I would like to see the laws relating to cheating pokie machines, robbing pokie-dens and their owners become subject to the ‘personal responsibility’ of said moguls rather than the ‘interfering nanny state’.

      The ultimate irony to me is the little sticker on a pokie machine saying “Malfunction voids all wins”- believe me. they mean this. A few years ago a pensioner that won $14,000 from a casino poker-machine was sued for the money back, plus interest about 6 months after then win due to a software fault causing the win. The casino won.

      So when the pokie-barons fuck up, costing them money, it’s the punters fault. When the punter fucks up and spends too much money, it’s the punters fault.

      Again, I am a Liberal voter and very conservative. I am, however, disgusted by those that are so politically one-eyed that they are unable to recognize a much-needed and excellent piece of legislation because it was suggested by the wrong side.

    • Nathan says:

      05:55am | 04/11/11

      You can’t say anything against Abbott here, cause apparently he would be a better economic manager offering a 1b hospital as a bribe just proved that one. What i don’t understand is how anybody could support Packer or the clubs here when they clearly do not put that much back into local areas despite their claims and are profiting.

      Flat out ban the things, i don’t care about a persons right to waste their lives on the bloody things. Im sure people will say it starts here then where will end up. The answer a much better place

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:07am | 04/11/11

      @Nathan, while the bribe is certainly a bribe, Hobart does badly need a new hospital.  The current one really is pish.

      (That isn’t to say other regions don’t require one as well)

    • Fran Smith says:

      07:30am | 04/11/11

      @ Nathan - ban gaming machines? If you’re not going to appear as a hypocrite, then I assume you’ll also be calling for the elimination of all racecourses, and want scratchies and lotto tickets banned also. Either ban all gambling or allow it all.

      You can’t be a little bit pregnant, champ.

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:58am | 04/11/11

      @Fran: So ban cars because some people speed as well?  I can’t remember which logical fallacy you’re spouting, but this ultimate reductionist crap is weak and you should know better.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      12:35pm | 04/11/11

      Mahhrat - Fran isn’t actually sporting a logic fallacy. She’s actually saying if you want to ban one type of gambling why not ban them all or allow them all. Pokies is a subset of gambling so her logic stands.

      Cars are not a subset and unrelated to gambling so you are drawing a long bow.

    • Mahhrat says:

      02:22pm | 04/11/11

      @MadKat:  I think it’s called Reductionism, but I’m not sure.

      And the argument is logically flawed.  Should all cars be banned because some are not safe?  Of course not.  Only the unsafe ones are banned.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      03:25pm | 04/11/11

      Mahhrat - “And the argument is logically flawed.  Should all cars be banned because some are not safe?  Of course not.  Only the unsafe ones are banned.”

      Your logic is still flawed.

      - Your assumption - all forms of cars can either be (1) safe to drive or (2) not safe to drive.
      - Comparability - all forms of gambling are (1) not safe as addiction can always occur.

      Therefore there is no safe form of gambling to compare safe driving too so your logic doesn’t hold.

    • Alf says:

      06:02am | 04/11/11

      There are normally just two sides to an arguement: those who strongly support an idea, and those against. However, in the poker machine debate, I believe there is a significant number who don’t really give a rats arse. Because they are not affected, when pushed, they are more inclined to suggest leaving the whole thing alone.

    • TimB says:

      08:41am | 04/11/11

      +1 to this. Count me in that camp.

    • Tony A says:

      09:17am | 04/11/11

      I love poker machine problem gambling, it is my friend and is good for families and the community.

      “After a decade of research and a comprehensive report by the Productivity Commission, we know the answers to address why 40 per cent of all profits come from problem gambling.
      Some 86 per cent of problem gambling in Australia is from pokies.”

    • Peter says:

      12:22pm | 04/11/11

      Otherwise known as sticking your head in the sand.

    • glenm says:

      01:17pm | 04/11/11

      Agree Alf I personally dont give a toss if we have pokies or not. But I do care about allowing our government to in any way remove a part of my personal freedom. If we are not carefull one day something you do care about will be gone, and then it will be a little late to put your hand up and say something. Erosion of personal freedom of choice is the issue.

    • Alf says:

      01:28pm | 04/11/11

      You can stick your head where you like Peter.

    • Peter says:

      01:30pm | 04/11/11

      @glenm - please explain for me exactly what personal freedom is being taken away from you with the proposed legislation?  This seems to be the crux of your argument, so please tell me because I honestly don’t see it.

    • Steve says:

      02:31pm | 04/11/11

      Peter likes filling out forms for big labor governments. It doesn’t do anything, but it makes him feel good.

    • Mattb says:

      04:43pm | 04/11/11

      Good question Peter, very good question, wrong place to be asking it though. Wont get an answer from any of the far right whingers here.

      Unless of course you count the drivel Steve has just coughed up-

      “Peter likes filling out forms for big labor governments”

      Really Steve, so the possibility of having to fill out a form justifies screaming ‘my personal freedom is bing taken away’. Exaggerate much Steve??. Please, if having to fill out a form or two causes you that much grief you might want to book yourself into the nearest mental institution, cause you’ve got serious issues buddy….

    • murr40 says:

      06:08am | 04/11/11

      Ah yes those evil poker machines that hold a gun to my head and make me put my hard earned into them….

      Please spare me the tears,what ever happened to personal responsible??
      Since weve gone done the Nanny State road can we now have Mandatory Pre Commitment on On Line Gambling and when we have fixed that problem can we then move on to Horse Racing dog racing,sports betting,and when thats done we should move on Mandatory Pre Commitment on Alcohol,thats a bigger evil than gambling….

      And when all you bleeding hearts have solved all of the above problems with society,then maybe we can all hold hands dancing down the road to Utopia singing Kumbaya my lord Kumbaya…..........

      Get a life you moroons,and get out of mine…..

    • Nathan says:

      06:37am | 04/11/11

      If there is something that facilitates depression, suicide, poverty and other social issues and there is an easy way to curb it you don’t want it?

      Get a life mate and look a little further than your own nose. People like you amaze me, they don’t need them in victoria and its hardly a bloody nanny state.

    • Mick S says:

      07:05am | 04/11/11

      You’re mention of the “Nanny State road” of course conjures up images of speed limits, drink-driving laws, compulsory third-party insurance, registration checks for safety, compulsory wearing of seatbelts, red light cameras, driving tests in order to obtain a “license” etc.

      “Dancing down the road” of course could be construed as jaywalking.

      Unfortunately in the real world “personal responsibility” is even rarer than “common” sense.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:08am | 04/11/11

      @murr40:  I absolutely agree.  When will the clubs be resopnsible for the social harm their pokies cause?

      Remember mate, a business is legally considered an individual.

    • James In Footscray says:

      08:26am | 04/11/11

      Mick S, there’s a big difference between laws that prevent us injuring and killing other people (eg road rules) and ones that prevent us doing harm to ourselves (eg spending money unwisely).

      I know you can argue ‘gambling doesn’t just hurt us, it can hurt our families’. But so can spending too much on anything. The basic question is whether it is appropriate for government to control how people use their money.

    • PTom says:

      09:17am | 04/11/11

      @James In Footscray

      Howard thought so in NT.

    • Tim says:

      11:18am | 04/11/11

      Mahhrat,
      Extra Taxes on pokies rake in more than the social cost of the machines, so you could say that pokie companies are responsible, the people complaining about them not so much.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      12:38pm | 04/11/11

      Mahhrat says:08:08am | 04/11/11 @murr40:  I absolutely agree.  When will the clubs be resopnsible for the social harm their pokies cause? Remember mate, a business is legally considered an individual.

      And I hope you don’t drink, smoke or eat fast food because that would be hypocritical now, wouldn’t it.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      12:51pm | 04/11/11

      Ahh Madkat whats wrong with hypocricy in debating? After all if a murdere expresses the view that murder is wrong - they still make a good point.

    • Mahhrat says:

      02:17pm | 04/11/11

      @MadKat, I eat fast food, sure, but then we’re bringing in laws that tell us what’s actually in what we’re ordering, so at least I can make an informed choice on how much I gamble - shit, sorry, consume. Huh.

      Besides, I’m probably the fattest bloke you know and even I can’t eat anything like $200 an hour in food.

      @Tim, all individuals pays income tax, personal or business.  That is not individual responsibility, that’s paying tax. 

      If your argument is that the business individual satisfies their social responsibility by the “extra” taxes they pay government on their machines, then surely I should have perpetual funding to battle any health costs of my addiction, because I pay GST on my burger in addition to the income tax on my wage?

    • Chungo mung says:

      02:23pm | 04/11/11

      It is the game of the spoiled, unthinking, self-righteous and ignorant free worlders who live in the paradise that sits upon the poverty of our globe - that actually correlates freedom and oppression and rights with whether or not one can bet their life away without having the occasional societal ” wait there sir/madam, are you sure you want to do that?”

      F!€k me people! Look beyond your own little space in the world have some bloody respect before you start touting such powerful themes in this relatively inconsequential paradigm.

    • Matt says:

      09:38am | 05/11/11

      “Mahhrat says:

      03:17pm | 04/11/11

      Besides, I’m probably the fattest bloke you know and even I can’t eat anything like $200 an hour in food.”

      What about the right of the family of the bloke who just ate himself into an early grave?

      They have free will too, and their freedom to enjoy the company of their father, or even to play sports, etc with him is being eroded by his overeating.

      (See what I did there?)

    • ChrisC says:

      06:08am | 04/11/11

      Top article.
      Abbott’s stance of pushing for the exact opposite of anything the Government say or do, no matter how ridiculous a position that leaves him in, is wearing pretty thin.
      Pokies are evil, no two ways about it. No such thing as a small flutter.
      Sad to say I was guilty of depriving my family of a sizeable portion of my hard earned by feeding the insatiable pokies on a daily basis for some time. Personally I now find it easier not to play the pokies at all than to try and limit myself to $5 or whatever.
      My local Leagues Club is throbbing on pension day!

    • Angry God of Townsville says:

      06:56am | 04/11/11

      Pokies are not evil, they are just a computer generated random number generator that idiots believe that they can influence through timing and luck.The truth is people who are addicted to them are weak willed and like so many, wanting to hit the jackpot to not have to work hard.

      This matter is just a distraction from the Carbon Tax and we know this because Mal is pushing this and not the destruction of our economy under the auspices of not achieving anything. If you do not control any other form of gambling then you are not fixing any problem.

    • Al says:

      07:03am | 04/11/11

      “Pokies are evil”
      No - they are programmed machines, to be evil their has to be the capacity for choice which these machines don’t have, they just do what they are programmed to do.
      “No such thing as a small flutter”
      HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
      Sorry, but the outright lie in that comment made me laugh.

      Good on you for taking action on your own issue, but why should I have to have a pre-commitment made when I have never gambled more than I am prepared to loose and have never had financial difficulties of ANY kind due to gambling (in general) or pokies (in particular)?
      Maybe the ‘problem gamblers’ need to do what YOU did, stop the pathetic behaviour.

    • James says:

      09:03am | 04/11/11

      1$ Limit works much better!

    • The Claw says:

      09:48am | 04/11/11

      Angry God of Townsville - they’re not random number generators. If they were, I’d have a lot less problem with them. But unlike, for example, casino games of chance, a poker machine does not spin randomly and deliver a win or a loss (with the odds weighted towards the house, like a roulette wheel). It returns a guaranteed amount of money over time - with that guaranteed amount of money of course being less than what is paid in.

      So it is absolutely, completely 100% impossible to ever win over time on the pokies. It doesn’t matter how lucky you are. You are absolutely guaranteed to lose your money.

      Poker machines aren’t gambling - they are theft. If I was looking at poker machine regulation the first thing I’d look at is mandating that they MUST be random (and audited as to the quality of their random number generation), so players at least have a chance of winning.

    • Eric The Red says:

      11:52am | 04/11/11

      @ The Claw, You have my vote Claw, I agree with your comment. The pokies are just theives. I know a club not to far from me (only small) in a country town where the staff seem to know when a pokie is ready to go ballistic and guess who you see playing them? Yep ,off duty staff. Happens regularly I’m told by some patrons.

    • Matt says:

      10:46pm | 04/11/11

      “The Claw says:
      10:48am | 04/11/11
      Angry God of Townsville - they’re not random number generators. If they were, I’d have a lot less problem with them. But unlike, for example, casino games of chance, a poker machine does not spin randomly and deliver a win or a loss (with the odds weighted towards the house, like a roulette wheel). It returns a guaranteed amount of money over time - with that guaranteed amount of money of course being less than what is paid in.”

      Claw, you just contradicted yourself. If you extrapolate a Roulette table over a large enough amount of time, I’m pretty sure you’ll find that that will also be an essentially guaranteed amount of money (working back to roughly a 97.2% return to punters - being 36/37). I would also stake my life on poker machines using a random number generator (i.e. being completely random). Otherwise, people would be able to predict payouts on machines, and exploit it to their benefit. Not that any random number generators are truly random, but to create a pattern would be disastrous.

      There is only one sure thing when gambling: the house always wins. So why is the Government only targeting pokies? Perhaps the plain cigarette packaging should also only apply to smokes over a certain mg? Seems like the same logic to me.

      If you don’t want to lose money on pokies, then DON"T USE THEM! Is that so hard to understand? Whats next to ban? a World of Warcraft monthly subscription? There is a guaranteed 0% return on that particular investment.

    • The Bear says:

      06:39am | 04/11/11

      @Chris. “Pokies are evil, no two ways about it. No such thing as a small flutter”.

      Complete crap.

    • acotrel says:

      06:59am | 04/11/11

      There are two things which suck money out of country towns - the pokies, and drugs.  I wonder where the money comes from, when the kids pay for the substances, and their parents play the machines ?  The druggies up our way acted with impunity, until the police eventually sorted their own corruption.  But that seems to be only two towns that have become clean.  What about the rest?  I believe we need to develop a different sense of direction for our communities, and the answer might lie in better education.  And if we gave the pokies the flick, it wouldn’t be all bad.

    • Brando says:

      07:03am | 04/11/11

      Don’t smoke as your government puts tougher restrictions and increases the taxes on cigarettes.

      Don’t drink as your government increases taxes on alcohol. Only on things the poor people drink like alcopops. $500 bottles of Krug champagne won’t be affected.

      Don’t gamble as your government increases the taxes and restrictions on gambling. Only on the things that poor people gamble with such as poker machines. Racing won’t be affected because that’s the sport of rich people and you can bet the high roller rooms at the casino won’t be affected either.

      Don’t eat as initiatives such as fat taxes are considered. Only for the stuff that poor people eat like Macca’s and KFC. Those calorie laden sauces at posh restaurants won’t be affected as you poor people don’t eat there.

      You see you poor people are a danger to yourselves. We politicians and other well paid professionals know far better what’s good for you than you do yourselves and if you don’t do what we want you to we are going to force you to.

      You can protest all you want because we’re obviously not going to listen to you. After all if you had something worthwhile to say you wouldn’t be poor and living in the western suburbs with the rest of the poor people.

      Australia is fast becoming the nanny state and us wealthy people are proud of it and the sooner you bogans out there learn to conform the better it will be.

      At least it will be better for us

    • centurion48 says:

      07:56am | 04/11/11

      @Brando: In one sense you are correct. The government is trying to limit how much physical and financial damage less wealthy people do to themselves through laws and taxes because it is the government that is left to pick up the pieces. When these poor folk get to 60 or 65 they will have their hands out for a government pension and subsidised housing as well as being a burden on the health system to patch up their cancer ridden obese bodies.
      Why should I pay my share of taxes my whole life and save for my retirement only to subsidise some idiot who smokes, drinks and gambles his/her earnings away and then whinges because the pension isn’t enough for them to continue smoking, drinking and gambling.

    • dovif says:

      08:05am | 04/11/11

      centurion

      There are a lot of people who receive a pension, who has never touch a pokie machine too, they spend their money on shoes, handbags, holidays, movies, cars, wifes, divorces, horse racing, casino, 2 ups, poker

      Actually any form of entertaining cost money!!!!!

      Should we ban all those as well?

    • acotrel says:

      07:05am | 04/11/11

      The town of Mansfield in NE Vic, has two excellent pubs which sell superb meals, and no pokies in the town.  So what is the story ?  Do we really need the pokies to provide such a dubious form of entertainment?  The truth seems to be that many of our business cannot succed unless they take the easy path and exploit addictions !

    • dovif says:

      08:14am | 04/11/11

      Acrotrel

      I think you are finally getting it, it is a form of “Entertainment” some people find movie/ shopping/ gambling/ going overseas/ eating/ playing computer game as entertainment.

      I think shopping and gambling are dubious form of entertainment, but that does not mean I want them banned. I for one, think, if someone want to pay $50,000 for a remote controlled plane and fly them all weekend for fun, The government should never get a say, even if that person cannot pay the rent

    • Bev says:

      09:09am | 04/11/11

      dovif says:09:14am | 04/11/11

      I call you line of reasoning a red herring.  Sure people do spend more than they can probably afford on other things however pokies are top dog in sucking up the disposable dollar.  I don’t say ban them but perhaps numbers should be reduced.

    • dovif says:

      10:00am | 04/11/11

      Bev

      How is that a red herring? Pokies is an entertainment for some people, just like horse racing is for other people, just like shopping, or going to the movies.

      Pokies give you a thrill when you win and have bright light to attract you to the machine, that is their advertising

      Designer handbags have latest colour and designs, and they are given out to celebrities for free, so you see them in a magazine and want to buy one, that is their advertising

      I know of a girl with 80 pairs of shoes and Imelda Marcos had hundreds, most of which she wore once, if that

      Both of them are addictions, gambler thinks the next win will make their life happier, some girls thinks getting the 81st pair of shoes will make them happier

    • Bev says:

      10:45am | 04/11/11

      dovif says:11:00am | 04/11/11

      Bev

      Both of them are addictions, gambler thinks the next win will make their life happier, some girls thinks getting the 81st pair of shoes will make them happier

      I doubt that the examples you cite do or could cause the problems that pokies do.  In that respect they are a distraction from you core comment. How much interference in our lives by government is too much? There is a middle road which most people agree with some control is sensible and necessary obviously. Is pokie control necessary? I believe so.  Should pokies be banned?  No though a reduction in numbers may be the better answer.  The biggest pokie addict is the government.

    • dovif says:

      12:41pm | 04/11/11

      Bev

      Actually I believe credit card debt to be a 100 times the problems of the few people addicted to pokies gambling.

      How many people out there are maxed out on their credit cards? How many of the brought that car/shoe/bag that they did not need? That could even be caused by gambling

      How many are paying 18-21% interest on their credit cards, meaning that bag cost them $3,000 instead of $2,000

      How many of those people are having issues with rent?

      I do not think Pokies addiction is in the top 50 social problems facing Australian society. I think Credit card debt is much bigger, I think Child obesity, the associating health cost , and a generation of kids without social skills will be a much bigger social issue. The Government aka Wilkie, whom .00001% of Australian voted for has got this completely wrong

    • James In Footscray says:

      07:08am | 04/11/11

      Driving through Prahran the other day I noticed lots of luxury car dealerships and expensive restaurants. It struck me the rich are wasting their money. I thought maybe we should introduce some sort of control on how many BMWs they can buy and how much they spend when they go out for lunch. But then I realised rich people are smarter than poor people, so they don’t need us to tell them how to lead their lives.

    • acotrel says:

      07:40am | 04/11/11

      At least when you buy a BMW you have something of value which gives enduring pleasure, and which takes loving labour to produce. Perhaps it all comes down to values ?

    • centurion48 says:

      08:06am | 04/11/11

      @James in Footscray: You might want to read this report:
      <http://www.sprc.unsw.edu.au/media/File/NSPC01_Doughney.pdf>
      In part it states with respect to poker machine gambling:
      “Two important facts have already emerged from independent research: machines are concentrated in municipalities that have a lower than average socio-economic status; and average losses per adult are concentrated in these municipalities.”
      The gambling industry knows where its target market is - and it ain’t the rich folks. While you are reading that report, have a look at the quantum and percentage of gaming machine losses in Victoria compared with other forms of gambling.

    • James In Footscray says:

      10:23am | 04/11/11

      Hi centurion, yes I understand pokies are concentrated in poorer areas (like around here in the western suburbs of Melbourne) and losses will have a bigger impact on a person’s income.

      But the people who play pokies know this! Why do we suggest poor people can’t think rationally, and can’t make their own choices? Do they really want to be looked after by nice middle-class experts?

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:13am | 04/11/11

      “..funded at least in part..”

      Yeah, 1.6% return on average.  That’s just awesome, pokie owners, well done.

      Seriously, are we as a society really stupid enough to fall for this bullshit?

    • Shane says:

      04:06pm | 04/11/11

      Read the comments from Alf, Peter, etc and tell me people don’t need to be saved from their own pig ignorance.

    • jay-ded says:

      07:22am | 04/11/11

      I was most saddened when most of my favourite clubs/pubs in Northern Sydney in the 80’s took away the stage area and replaced it with new modern fangdangled pokie machines.  No more local bands, no more juke box dancing area, just the Bing and Bling of pokie lights and pokie noises.  Where were the crowds that usually turned up to watch the band, stand at the bar and actually talk to each other?  Oh, there they were, placing their money into machines, ignoring everyone else around them.

      That was the year that I no longer took enjoyment from going to the pub, listening to new rock music and talking to people from all walks of life.  This was all taken away from us by the pokies.

      The end of an era.

    • Bev says:

      09:01am | 04/11/11

      So very true all of have seen it. They ripout dance floors, reduce bistro’s to pie warmers (well sort of) anything so you have wall to wall pokies. I don’t say ban them but they have assumed a significance way beyond what they should in clubs.  The original purpose of many clubs now takes back seat.

    • jg says:

      08:00am | 04/11/11

      My local club used to be a vibrant place full of people socialising and bands playing on Friday and Saturday nights.

      These days its a dim, dull world of mindless morons all staring intently at poker machines. No talking, no bands, no dancing.

      If they banned pokies all together I wouldn’t be too worried.

      However, that sort of government intervention seems draconian so I have no idea what to do. The peope have spoken and they want pokies.

      How sad.

    • Anna C says:

      08:04am | 04/11/11

      State and territory governments collectively receive about $3b in tax revenue each year from pokies.
      http://www.sacoss.org.au/media/2011/110527-states-compromised-on-pokies-reform.pdf

      Now if people want to voluntarily gamble away their money and thus pay more tax who are we to deny them this right? People who play the pokies would probably waste their money on other shit like drugs, alcohol, tobacco etc if pokies weren’t there. No one is pointing a gun to their head and forcing them to gamble. They have free will.

    • Mahhrat says:

      09:01am | 04/11/11

      @Anna, what about the right of the family of the bloke who just lost his weekly pay’s right to a decent feed?

      They have free will too, and their freedom to eat dinner is being eroded by pokies.

      (Yes, that’s emotive and extreme.  We’re human, this is what happens when people become addicted to shit)

    • James says:

      09:19am | 04/11/11

      “After a decade of research and a comprehensive report by the Productivity Commission, we know the answers to address why 40 per cent of all profits come from problem gambling.
      Some 86 per cent of problem gambling in Australia is from pokies.”

    • Anna C says:

      10:29am | 04/11/11

      “What about the right of the family of the bloke who just lost his weekly pay’s right to a decent feed?”

      Mahhrat, I have encountered people like this a lot during my working life in both the Community and Charity sectors. If the mother had one iota of sense she would take the kids and leave this guy. If the guy had any sense left he would take their leaving as impetus for seeking treatment.

      From my experience you can’t help people who won’t help themselves. I know it sounds harsh but this is what more than 15 years of experience dealing with people like this has shown me.

    • Steve says:

      03:25pm | 04/11/11

      @Mahhrat
      “We’re human, this is what happens when people become addicted to shit”
      Are you saying the Labor / Union / Green party should be banned?

    • Nic says:

      08:18am | 04/11/11

      Pokies are designed to suck people in, they are addictive and they are predators on the wallets of the vunerable.

      Mother-in-law has done $400k inheritance in 4 years, yes she is an idiot.. 
      but the clubs prey on idiots.

    • Anna C says:

      08:40am | 04/11/11

      “But clubs prey on idiots.”

      Lucky for the clubs then that they have a never ending supply of idiots to feed their machines. A fool and his money are easily parted as they say.

    • Brizben says:

      08:38am | 04/11/11

      Nice article Malcolm. I can’t believe idiots out there are defending poker machines. The machines take far more than they give to communities.

      The question is not whether poker machines should have mandatory pre commitment, the question should be “when will poker machines be banned?”

    • Steve says:

      02:36pm | 04/11/11

      Everything should be banned, except things that Gillard and Bob Brown like doing.
      We should all be forced to wear Red wigs, watch the ABC, and live in Tasmania with our boyfriends.

    • Brizben says:

      03:19pm | 04/11/11

      Are you right Steve?

    • ban stuff says:

      03:43pm | 04/11/11

      Brizben

      I think Steve is saying that why limit banning stuff to things that cost people money?

      1,000 people dies in car accidents a year, that kills people, lets limit cars to 30km per hours.

      Smoking kills people, lets completely ban it

      Eating Chips can make people fat, fat people have lower life expectancy, lets ban chips

    • Steve says:

      04:20pm | 04/11/11

      + Its lucky we are banning things that poor people like doing.
      Banning boring plays, street theatre and pointless art would not be acceptable at all!
      + I wonder if the same “ban it brigade” are all for legalising drugs “cause everyones doing it anyway” and the laws aren’t working?
      Pokies are a tax on bad mathematicians, sad, but true.

    • Brizben says:

      04:30pm | 04/11/11

      It is not about “banning stuff”. Gambling addiction is an illness and the venues with poker machines prey on vulnerable people. As for all the other issues you raised you need to get back on topic and stop throwing distractions up.

    • bella starkey says:

      08:41am | 04/11/11

      As much as I can’t stand the whitlams most of the time, Tim Freedman almost won me over with Blow up the Pokies.

      http://youtu.be/79o8qiGmkOU

    • Rowdy says:

      08:59am | 04/11/11

      No…...the Whitlams suck ALL of the time…..

    • Brizben says:

      10:02am | 04/11/11

      Nice song

    • Anthony Sharwood

      Anthony Sharwood says:

      10:43am | 04/11/11

      Good thought Bella. Embedded it now at the bottom of the piece

    • jf says:

      10:52am | 04/11/11

      If there was ever an argument for pokies, it’s this song.

      Personally, I don’t like pokies much. What I don’t like more is sanctimonious idiots who want to forcibly impose their lifestyle on others.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      11:23am | 04/11/11

      @ JF

      “Flashing lights – it’s a real show/And your wife – I wouldn’t go home/Little bundles may care, but you can’t be a father there….”

      Too bad about those addicts imposing their lifestyle on their families though eh….?

      Society reaps a very bitter harvest from the libertarianism which permits addictive behaviour. Is it not just that society step in a protect society from addicts? Particularly those who can’t protect themselves like say – the children of gambling addicts.

    • Mar says:

      09:07am | 04/11/11

      Very good Article, see the old perennial anti ALP bloggers Joan and Dovif are here. I have worries about poker machines, I know probably 88% of people just have a “flutter” and from what I read they won’t be affected, it is the “problem” gamblers and more importanently their families I am concerned about

    • Dan says:

      09:09am | 04/11/11

      Great article, Mal.

      I remember Barnaby Joyce making a similar line to Abbott - along the lines of if we had our time again, we wouldn’t have them at all.

      He’s right. But the argument that they are such a fundamental pillar of society, that they can’t be ripped out, is absurd.

      Tens of thousands of problem gamblers pour their families livelihoods down the throat of the pokies every year. Why the hell are we letting them do that?

      And for what? Are we that dependant on the >2% of clubs revenue that goes back to the community?

      Last time I checked, the Under 11’s football scene in Melbourne was going just fine without pokies revenue. The RSL’s still provide community buses. I don’t think NSW communities are that totally relient on their clubs, who rely on pokies. And if they are, that’s a real problem.

      NSW has one in 4 of all poker machines, worldwide. There’s a reason no one else puts up with these things.

      Bring in mandatory pre-commitment on high-intensity machines. At least it will stop, and make a gambler think before pissing away their wages.

      And if that doesn’t work, rip them out. We, like most other developed nations, will survive. In fact, I doubt we’d even notice.

    • Peter says:

      09:11am | 04/11/11

      Perth bowls clubs, apparently, are in “a different situation”, said Abbott.

      “If you were starting from scratch you would probably do a whole lot of things differently,” he acknowledged.

      So poker machines are not pivotal to community development, and are not an optimal revenue source for that development, Abbott concludes. Therefore, we can conclude they are vital only to poker machine clubs.

      So we have to protect Pokie clubs profits? Shame Tony, shame.

    • James says:

      02:03pm | 04/11/11

      Disgraceful that we need to protect clubs that take 86% of the problem gambling via poker machines.

      WAKE up LNP, this is a good change for the health of our society.

    • Matt Holden says:

      09:30am | 04/11/11

      The pro-poker machine people here are suspiciously vehement. Who could care so much? What do any ordinary people really stand to lose if poker machines are a bit more regulated? Totally smells like Astroturf …

    • The Claw says:

      09:52am | 04/11/11

      There are no pro poker machine people here. Everyone posting in favour of pokies is doing so simply because it is a stick to beat the ALP with. I guarantee you, if the ALP were proposing to reduce regulation of poker machines, the exact same people would be posting about how evil pokies are and how bad the ALP are for not regulating them more!

    • Tim says:

      12:01pm | 04/11/11

      Yeah,
      How dare people believe in freedoms and personal responsibility.
      Your comment totally smells like bullshit.

    • Bev says:

      09:34am | 04/11/11

      A straight forward question about pre-commitment.  Poker machines return 80%? of what you put in on average. Many play then pickup the winnings from the tray and reinsert their 80% and so on till it’s all gone or they win a jackpot.  If pre commitment is on the original stake they at least get to keep 80% on average returns as you cannot feed your winnings back.
      I get the impression that however it is just a max dollar amount which does not stop you reinvesting your winnings.  Which is correct? If the first it’s a powerful stopper if the second it really does not do very much.

    • Bev says:

      10:18am | 04/11/11

      I add in the first case if you commit $10 you get to keep on average $8.

      In the second case $10 or perhaps.

      $10 + your winnings (your money) $8 + $6.4 + $5.12 + $4.09 + $3.27 + $2.62 + $2.09 + $1.67 +$1.34 + 1.07 ............
      Though again it could be argued that you have only lost $10 dollars the money you walked in with.

    • Aussie Overseas says:

      10:03am | 04/11/11

      Consider the scenario…......Should Tony, and his pledge in blood, had actually had the ability to convince those nasty indepenants and make him PM in this hung parliament with their demands for pokie reform etc….......All the spin, spun by the Mad Monk and many others here about thepokies, broadband, carbon, mining, aiding Queensland’s recovery and just about anything else when railing against this government .........No no no it couldn’t be possible good ole Tone doing exactly the same as this government is faced with right now…Such is the hypocracy of being in opposition

    • Alf says:

      05:57pm | 04/11/11

      @Aussie. Dream on dude. The Independents will bite the dust along with Gillard. Abbott will need them about as much as he needs you.

    • brad says:

      10:30am | 04/11/11

      A neat piece which encapsulates the real issue - clubs are ‘for profit’ and only deliver to communities what they’re obliged to under law. If that. And who decides exactly where that meagre amount can be spent?

      In a loose segue, clubs of this nature can be likened to the power, control and damage to communities by the big supermarkets and their various enterprises. How many small businesses close or become unprofitable when the big supermarket/retailer comes to town? Instead of the money passing through the community several times over (generating jobs, cash-flow and taxes) the vast majority of the money goes straight out of town.

    • Kate says:

      10:30am | 04/11/11

      As my colleagues from WA keep saying, the don’t have pokies there yet despite what the Clubs lobby will have you believe, they have sporting clubs and community groups and pubs still survive

    • jimbo says:

      10:38am | 04/11/11

      As usual, everyone is an expert and nobody is wrong.  Just more spin from a failing Govt.  I’m giddy, please stop spinning.

    • Keith Hammersmith says:

      10:52am | 04/11/11

      “Not on horses, but gambling on pokies”

      so throwing money away at the track is fine is it?  Consistency.
      If you really care about problem gambling,  then care,  this crap about one type of problem gambling needs to be stopped whilst the other is fine is ridiculous.  It has as much consistency as a carbon tax that does nothing to curb vehicle emissions..

    • I love everything liberal says:

      11:32am | 04/11/11

      Bit slow are you keith?
      “After a decade of research and a comprehensive report by the Productivity Commission, we know the answers to address why 40 per cent of all profits come from problem gambling.
      Some 86 per cent of problem gambling in Australia is from pokies.”

    • Keith Hammersmith says:

      11:58am | 04/11/11

      So the machines are the problem, without them these problem gamblers will be fine?
      yeah right, they will be at the track or find some other way to satisfy the urge.  It is simply shifting the problem, not solving it, like i said, if you care about problem gambling, then care,  but don’t give me this half ass crap.  There is one reason why track betting and other kinds of sport betting are not getting reformed and pokies may be, - and that is because Wilkie hasn’t told the labor party to do it yet.

    • Cars says:

      01:38pm | 04/11/11

      What a stupid argument Keith. It is quite obvious the machines are part of the problem. That’s not a long bow to draw when 86% of problem gambling is on pokies.
      No one said by regulating pokies all problem gamblers will be fine. You’re making stuff up so you can shoot it down and feel good.
      It just seems, by the numbers, that attacking pokies is the best place to start. Sure you can put more money into helplines and counselling services and whatever - but i doubt that would be as effective.

    • The Claw says:

      03:07pm | 04/11/11

      If you lose money on the track, how quickly can you chase your losses by betting more money? The average race meeting has maybe eight races spread over a number of hours. Now, how quickly can you chase your losses on a poker machine? One second? Two seconds? That’s why so much problem gambling is on the pokies, it’s the crack cocaine of gambling.

    • punter says:

      04:09pm | 04/11/11

      The Claw

      Have you actually been to a track?

      They allow u to bet in Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth, New Zealand etc, there is a race every 5 minute at most

    • Keith Hammersmith says:

      07:01pm | 04/11/11

      @ the claw,  or have you sat a pub with pokies and TAB,  you can bet on any horse race and dog race in the country,  literally you would have to wait 2 minutes max between races,  this is going on 10 feet away from pokie machines.
      Why can sports betting companies advertise on TV?  why is that such an accepted medium for an addicted gambler to lose it all?? 
      @cars,  86% of problem gambling is on pokie machines..  perhaps,  do you think if there were no pokie machines 86% of problem gambling would disappear?  Or would problem gamblers simply shift to sports betting, or any other kind of betting they could get their ‘hands’ on?
      Are you seriously telling me that Labors new found war on pokies has nothing to do with Wilkie forcing their hand?  You can not honestly say that the government cares or they would act across the board.  ban advertising for betting,  limit bets on sports etc.

    • Matt says:

      10:55pm | 04/11/11

      “I love everything liberal says:
      12:32pm | 04/11/11
      Bit slow are you keith?”

      So plain packaging on cigarettes should only apply to 6 mg or higher smokes?

    • Cars says:

      11:09am | 04/11/11

      OK. I support Liberalism generally but most of the “pro-pokie” people are missing the point. They keep comparing pokies to other forms of entertainment like shopping / buying cars or even other forms of gambling like horses. What people like myself have against the pokies in particular is their low return in actual entertainment. It’s anti social - you aren’t cheering the same horse as anyone, or sharing banter round a poker table. It’s not mentally stimulating - all you do is press a button. They’re more addictive than other forms of gambling. What’s to like about them?? Ban the filthy things altogether! I can bet that they are not making anyone happy long term!

    • Adam Diver says:

      11:27am | 04/11/11

      I agree with Mal

      “by low-income earners who can suddenly find their rent has disappeared down the maw of a gaming machine”

      We should quarantine and export low-income earners because they are lesser people who can’t control their indulgences. When I see them on the street it makes me feel dirty, and I just don’t know if they are going to go on an alcoholic, smoking, drug-induced, gambling binge and that terrifies me.

      So unless you are an “elite” such as a political journalist with oodles of bias, and not enough logical reasoning to notice it, then your actions should be controlled by big government or socialist progrmas because they have never f**ked up before.

      BTW I hate the pokies, don’t play them, and think they are over-representated in licensed establishments, but guess who let them in there in the first place?

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      11:37am | 04/11/11

      “Why the hell are we letting them do that?”

      Umm, because they’re adults!

    • hot tub political machine says:

      12:27pm | 04/11/11

      Adults whose kids are starving and living in filth due to their addiction

    • Anthony says:

      03:14pm | 04/11/11

      Ah the children! Lets save the children, what percentage of Australian children live in poverty because of problem gambling? Can we have some science please?

    • hot tub political machine says:

      03:49pm | 04/11/11

      Anthony:

      http://www.ncfpc.org/specialngisc.html

      Relevant quote from this one:

      “Children of compulsive gamblers are often prone to suffer abuse, as well as neglect, as a result of parental problem or pathological gambling”

      and from a neuroscience perspective:

      http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1162

      Which state are you from? Child protection agencies are state specific agencies so let me know which state you live in and I’ll dig up your local report.

    • Alf says:

      06:04pm | 04/11/11

      @Anthony. “what percentage of Australian children live in poverty because of problem?’

      Should be none since1990 if you believed Hawke’s bullshit.

    • Fiona says:

      08:34pm | 04/11/11

      Have you seen kids stuck hanging around a pub because their parents are in the pokies room Anthony? I have and it’s not pleasant. They get a soft drink and bowl of hot chips for tea/lunch etc and will hang around any family they vaguely know.

    • Andrew says:

      12:23am | 05/11/11

      Hi tub, lets ban alcohol and smoking then, how many children live in poverty because of that. I dont like pokies, not sure if I agree with the policy or not but it amazes me that people think this will stop people wasting there money. People becoming addicted to pokies have other underlying problems, and they will waste there money in other ways unless those problems are addressed. It may save the lives of a few people but so will banning smokes, banning alcohol, banning knifes, banning guns, banning fatty foods, banning motorbikes, banning old people from driving, banning swimming in rivers, banning motor sports, banning flying, etc etc etc but exactly how far do you go, exactly were do you draw the line and let people make there own decisions.

    • Deano says:

      11:48am | 04/11/11

      I am a Punter. I called the gambling help line which number was on the poker machine with my problem and much to my amazement i could get no help from the lady on the end of the line .My problem all gamblers face when playing poker machines was ,was it Red or was it Black on the Double up feature.

    • Jane Salmon says:

      12:17pm | 04/11/11

      I’ve lost a family member to suicide following a huge pokie blitz. Then his mother followed. I’m not saying it was his only problem, but I AM saying that this industry is parasitic and preys on vulnerability and misery.  Worse are the RSLs that claim to be supporting returned servicemen through trauma but in fact reinforce the damage.

    • adrienne says:

      12:32pm | 04/11/11

      Well done Mal, very good points. A shame some of the arguments on this site are as flimsy as opponents of pre-commitment.
      I don’t want to live in a nanny state but nor do I want to see people taken advantage of financially to the point that their families and lives are destroyed. Nobody is saying people have to stop betting - the amount they are prepared to lose is up to them.
      We throw people out of pubs when they are too drunk; we should give them the help they need to break away when they make a rational choice about how much they can afford to lose in one sitting.

    • Flossie,Mopsy & Cottontail says:

      03:53pm | 04/11/11

      Tony Abbott speak with forked tongue. Always.

    • Kika says:

      03:56pm | 04/11/11

      “The difference is nobody has gone broke and been forced to sell their home to pay debts from shopping at a milk bar or a news agency”

      Or people who end up killing themselves because they have lost everything they ever had because of their pokie addiction. We BAN drugs because they are bad for us. We BAN speeding in our cars because it’s dangerous and bad for us. We BAN smoking everywhere because it’s bad for us.

      Don’t give me the whole personal responsibility thing. If that’s the case, go live in Monaco where there are no laws or taxation and you can live the way you want to live. Go speed, take drugs and emit noxious tobacco fumes on as many people as you like.

      Yet we live in a society, and part of that is determining in law what is and what isn’t acceptable, and what is and what isn’t good for us.

      Lots of people can smoke drugs yet never become addicted. Lots don’t. Lots smoke it everyday to the point it takes over their lives. We ban it because it’s dangerous to their health and social wellbeing. What is the difference in pokies?

      i’m CERTAIN that there are people who can casually use a pokie machine and never become addicted. However there are THOUSANDS who can’t. We need to, as a society, determine what is or isn’t acceptable. Spending all your life savings on your pokie addiction ISNT acceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated. A cap on your spending is a little way we can help families cope with addiction. Surely. It’s not even a ban.

    • Jason says:

      06:25pm | 04/11/11

      Kika, Were is this banning everything going to stop? Banning everything to save the minority is not the solution to the problem. Speeding for example, we continually lower speed limits, yet more people are being killed on our roads. Quit a few other countries have open speed limits and they have far less deaths.

      Most of us do not want to live in an oppressive society, if we want to gamble unlimited amounts of money, drink excessive amounts of alcohol or what not, no government policy should have the right to say otherwise.

    • Sandra says:

      04:00pm | 04/11/11

      I think it is a given that people should take resposibility for their own actions. However as a society we introduce rules to protect the weak. When problem gambling means people committing suicide or not feeding the family or going bankrupt then it does affect all of us. Our taxes have to provide financial support and health care to those in trouble. If people are playing the pokies for fun then surely machines that ONLY allow you to lose $120 per hour should be sufficient for fun. Perhaps limit the high intensity machines to high roller rooms in casino’s rather than having them in normal pubs and clubs.
      Personally I haven’t put money into a poker machine for many years but we used to have fun with 1 cent machines.  You would only lose $20 in a night and that was an affordable night out. Put $20 in a machine now and it wouldn’t last for long. I think poker machines may have originally helped to provide facilities in clubs and supported the local community but I’m not sure that it the case any longer.

    • Keith Drain says:

      04:21pm | 04/11/11

      Whatever happened to freedom of choice and personal responsibility?
      I really hate the idea that the government is trying to make me spend my money in a certain way.

      Stay out of my home and away from wallet Australian Government you already get more than your fair share!

    • Horns Up says:

      08:19am | 05/11/11

      “Whatever happened to freedom of choice and personal responsibility? “

      Ok well I don’t want to pay taxes, drive on the left or vote. Oh wait yes I do, because anarchy sucks.

      This is nothing to do with limiting personal freedoms and everything to do with helping addicts. You can still blow your money if you really want to.

      The real question is whether this measure will work. I think it will for some, forcing a moment of clarity and for others it wont matter (and as such I’d like to see other changes adopted as well e.g. restrictions on lights, noise, number of payouts and banning from being put into machines etc).

      What is certain, is 1) the industry’s claim that this measure wont work but will cost jobs is just plain silly, if it wont work how does it cost jobs? And 2) Tony Abbott’s do nothing approach is just not an option.

      \m/

    • The Cricket says:

      05:04pm | 04/11/11

      The number one argument being put forward by opponents of Mel’s argument is that no government should tell people what they should spend their money on.
      That is a complete red herring, and I suspect they know it.
      This legislation does not stop anyone wasting their money on pokies. If they want to fritter their rent money or child’s bank account to mindlessly pour into pokies, they still can.
      But the measures are aimed at helping addicts who want help by making it harder for them to lose so much, so quickly.
      Arguments about “personal liberty” are a crock of shit. No-one’s freedom is under threat here.

    • stephen says:

      07:50pm | 04/11/11

      Your wrong about carbon pricing.
      It is the first step in reducing our use of products that affect weather, and that money, or pricing, (to put it as a ‘retail’ product, which it is) is the best way to change behaviour.
      (People do not like the carbon price advocates ... just look at the hullabaloo over occupiers who want to point out the bleeding obvious : that those who might kick their tents, are those who would argue against paying one cent to stop carbon pollution.)
      Actually, I’m surprized the BCC has not yet worked that out, (and being Labor, may have had a bit more empathy with those youngsters still on the grass).
      Polkies are bad because Coles and Woolworths own all the pubs and clubs.
      They shouldn’t, because the feeling for pubs, as once they were places that a family could go and eat, hear a band or an acoustic muso, and have grass out the back where the kids could go and play, is gone.
      Money making, and nothing else.
      And these machines are the worst aspect of the Australian Pub, gone to the dogs.
      (I only hope Westfield doesn’t get into the business ; they’d be charging a fee to use the dunnies.)

    • Lloyd says:

      08:45pm | 04/11/11

      The atmosphere of an RSL with pokies is so depressing. Bunch of old people or bogan parents with nothing better to do, reeking of desperation. Stale beer. Hideous colours. Terrible 80’s rock playing. Cold Chisel….ugh.

    • Aussie Battler says:

      10:01pm | 04/11/11

      I posted this the other day in regards to the Pokies issue.  It is still relevant at this time.  All the below happened mostly before the advent of the big community clubs etc. -  What I find strange is that there were “Addicts” when all we had was the old one armed bandits,  yet no one did anything at this time?.  There were no flashing lights, loud music etc to draw the player in.  Perhaps education at that time may have reduced some of what we are seeing nowadays?
      I also beg to differ with those that say Horse Racing, Dog Racing, Lotteries etc is different.  Many years ago I was involved in the debt collection industry and I can tell you that there were plenty of people affected by losses to ALL forms of gambling. They were losing cars, furniture and marriages were breaking down yet it all appeared to have been brushed to one side, not spoken about and ignored till it now appears to have got out of hand.
      I do not know if Wilkie’s legislation will have any affect on problem gamblers,  but if someone really wants a bet, they will find a way.

    • Ross H says:

      03:20pm | 05/11/11

      Rightly or wrongly, the harsh reality today is that in places like the ACT, the community is more directly supported by clubs with pokies than they would be without. In an era where goverment forced more and more costs onto users of things like sporting grounds, those clubs had to find the money form somewhere to pay for it. The degree of sponsorship coming from the clubs is greater than that coming from sponsoring businesses pre-club sponsorships. Having been out there, beating the drum to help find the bucks to cover the government-created budgetary black hole in the club’s books, I know just how hard it was to get those funds. I would far prefer a society where we didn’t have people pouring so much money into pokies but at least the clubs are putting some of it back - albeit government forced in some instances.

    • zif says:

      08:54pm | 05/11/11

      Bulldust Ross
      In West Australia, we have a tremendous sporting community and produce world class athletes.
      And guess what Ross.  We don’t have pokies
      Clubs suck the life out of communities with their poker madness.
      There is no defence for this behaviour and the politicians that brought in Pokies to begin with should hang their heads in shame.

    • Pokie Madness says:

      04:24pm | 06/11/11

      To be honest if I could get pokies installed ANYWHERE to help raise revenue for a small local business I would. I live in a small rural town that gets little or no help from the local council much less the state of federal government.  This small town has an 18 bed Aged Care facility that gets barely enough funding to stay open. Minimal staff doing the best they can under a very stressful situation and of course for very low pay. I recently attended their Melbourne cup fund raiser and the proceeds would go for a syringe driver. A syringe driver is to assist residents in extreme pain with a terminal illness. It allows them to go a bit more peacefully and with dignity. So if I cannot get pokies put up in my garage or backyard then I would hope the local clubs would cut their profits a bit and help out.  If they are unable to assist local organizations more then they can close down for all I care.

    • Jay says:

      09:34am | 07/11/11

      Let’s get a few facts straight. After 8 years of the disastrous Cain/Kirner Govt it was Labor that introduced the Pokies in Victoria.We had to sell of the State Bank, GIO,electricity, gas and water and slash nursing,police and teachers.Let’s not forget the Brumby Govts brilliant myki card debacle and let’s not forget the desal plant which has put us in debt for 30 years to the tune of 30 billion dollar, plus they have incurred a further 17 billion dollars in Govt debt, but Brumby would tell us we had a budget surplus. Now the Federal num nuts want to get rid of the industry that employs 300,000 people nationally, provides large amounts in community grants and sponsorships but more importantly pays a huge amount of tax. Instead we have a carbon Tax which will cost jobs and investments after this Govt blew a 20 billion dollar surplus and zero Govt debt with their pink batts and schools upgrade which we all know was a rort. .Is it any wonder people play the pokies? They are desperately trying to get ahead of all the bloody Govt taxes that the num nuts keep imposing upon business and individuals. Malcolm I wish you and your socialist mates would keep your nose out of my business and let me get on with my life.If a small minority cannot control their gambling, why should I have to pay for this? They can still buy tatts tickets, scratchies, bet on the horses footy,cricket basically on anything they like online without ever leaving their homes. Do you intend to punish us for this as well? Maybe before go on the net we should obtain Govt permission.
      I am sure you and Comrad Brown would support this action.

 

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