Out west, tasering petrol sniffers isn’t an issue

Razor says:

05:23pm | 21/07/09

Ok David - please describe for all your readers exactly what actions you would take when a drunk/drugged/deranged person armed with a tin of petrol and a lighter comes at you.

Alex says:

05:34pm | 21/07/09

Oh, ffs. Could my state get any more pathetic?

I choose to blame the Dalek Mr O’Callaghan keeps in his office, which I have sadly missed seeing since he stopped doing interviews there. It’s clearly eaten his brain or something.

LM says:

05:43pm | 21/07/09

The use of tasers was justified to the public by the police claiming that they were only to be used in instances police would normally feel compelled to use a gun so by your reasoning Mr. Razor a policeman should shoot their gun everytime a ‘drunk/drugged/deranged’ person comes at them?

What appalling police training standards Australians must have if our police are taught to do is shoot a gun, no matter the situation??

Bald Eagle says:

05:45pm | 21/07/09

This is the wild west…. Hard to believe that Mr O’Callaghan already knows all of the circumstances surrounding this event…  The politicians may change the law to say the punishment for petrol sniffing is third degree burns administered on the spot, kind of like on the spot fines only different.  It find it amazing that the police out here wonder why the public has so little respect for these cowboy cops who shoot first and take no prisoners… Couple this with the fact that some of these police are 4 foot nothing policewomen and now you are starting to understand why they cannot deal with these situations..  It has been said that Tasers represent a shift from policing by consent with the community to paramilitary policing.  Is that what we want in West Australia a military police state? These devices are proving popular with police and are obviously being used more frequently than they’re supposed to.  An example of how this type of policing gets away from the police is the use of capsicum spray.  When it was introduced variously around the country five to eight years ago, the selling point from police ministers was it will be used instead of a police officer having to draw his gun. Now capsicum spray is being used around the country every day in ordinary, mundane situations. The same is starting to happen with the taser gun in Australia.

Jane says:

05:54pm | 21/07/09

So what should the officers of done instead of tasering him? Wait for fuel he had in one hand and the lighter in the other to be thrown at them to see what would happen? The officer who was assisting putting the flames out also copped a rock to the head by people watching on and needed 5 stiches. It’s a horrible outcome for all involved but definitely not the worst.

Tom says:

06:03pm | 21/07/09

Trash story.  Mr Penbirty has a better solution, but I guess he didnt want to share it.  I would bet that any jouno who witnessed this incient would have just stood there taking photos, rather than attempt to assist the injured. Unfair on all journo’s I know, but this story seems intent on blaming a ‘state’ of Australia because someone attacks a police officer with petrol and lighter.  What is the reason behind highlighting the fact that the offender who attacked the police was ‘Aboriginal’ what does that have to do with what occured? IDIOT pretending to be intelligent.

benn says:

06:10pm | 21/07/09

i know the policeman who tasered rodney mitchell and comparing this to rodney kings bashing case is unfair and downright wrong. Karl O’Callaghan did not shrug his shoulders, he backed his officers training and experience to make the right decision. i’m sure the journalist responsible for this “article”  has been backed by his editor for similar reasons. its not a new frontier out there, its a forgotten land full of forgotten people. the real story is that we as a nation have left these people to rot, and expect low paid public servants to clean up the mess.

Brett says:

06:23pm | 21/07/09

Shoot to stop the threat and possibly kill or Taser to stop the threat and possibly burn to death? I would have chosen the firearm. It is pretty simple most people have a plain view on all matters that police are contronted with. Try being a police officer and see what your confronted with everyday.

I think it is great the that the WA Police Commissioner is standing behind his front line troops

Chris says:

06:23pm | 21/07/09

Not certain if David wants to make this a racial issue or a taser issue?

One thing that is certain though is if this had happened in Victoria this offender would have been shot dead.

Jay says:

06:47pm | 21/07/09

Razor, the cops called him out of the house to begin with!

I have the uncomfortable feeling that some of these instances could be avoided if the cops backed off. They always seem to be in a rush to bring the perp down and bundle him off to the holding cells. A bit of patience on behalf of the boys in blue and the guy would have just passed out eventually - he was chroming after all.

The tasers, in one way, might be making this worse. Another ‘magic bullet’ to subdue the troublemakers with and provide the illusion that there is a quick and safe way to round up the uncontrollable. Like everything else in out society, the perceived need to rush through everything is creating life threatening situations.

And finally, in spite of what Hollywood shows you petrol does not ignite on in contact with bullets (Mythbusters, anyone?) so it may have been safer to shoot him in the legs rather that use a taser after all, although unlikely.

Luke says:

06:49pm | 21/07/09

David, I don’t agree with your view.
The officer was at risk of being set alight himself and had only limited options. The baton would not have been suitable at that range I would assume. That leaves the taser and the gun. The gun would certainly cause serious injury, if not result in the death of the assailant. The taser is then a risky move, but the safer one nonetheless. Obviously the situation was past talking nicely and shaking hands.
The officers immediately moved to put the fire out, and had rocks thrown at them while they tried.
Now, if anyone, no matter what race, ran at a police officer with petrol and a lighter in hand I am sure the situation would have been no different, so to cite it as an example of ‘white indifference’ is to be honest, inflammatory.
You say this is not a knee jerk column, but it is. O’Callaghan no doubt has better information than yourself, and the media. I trust him far more than what is reported.
If the man was shot dead, I wonder if there would have actually been less of a reaction in the media. For some reason the taser seems to bear the brunt of controversy when in my mind it is the far better alternative to a far more lethal weapon.

barry says:

07:00pm | 21/07/09

What happened to the good old police baton? Has worked in the UK for 150 years and still works!

Nevyn says:

07:21pm | 21/07/09

Oh the old race issue,  perhaps there’s a reason our prison system (especially in WA and NT) are over loaded with Aborigines. Has anyone thought of the fact that they could be the ones breaking the law? Now, I am not 100% familiar with individual laws anywhere regarding everything, but I’m willing to guess sniffing petrol, if not just bloody stupid, is also against some kind of law, as would be running towards anyone , let alone a Police Officer, with a can of petrol and a cigarette lighter. I’ll give any Police officer reading this my 100% full on permission to shoot me dead if I ever run at you in a threatening manner with any kind of weapon and damn the paperwork, Guys, just do your job, and if that needs taser, guns or batons, whatever, go for it.

Rosco says:

07:32pm | 21/07/09

David - time for some personal accountability and based on the info at hand it does not suggest the police should do anything other than than continue to do their best.

Adam says:

07:41pm | 21/07/09

Jay you would make a great copper.

“You are under arrest, come with me back to the station”

“No”

“OK, I will back off and see if you want to later”

Leo says:

07:44pm | 21/07/09

David can you please identify why you have linked the unforgiveable death of Mr Ward with the WA Police when in fact it was a private security company employed by the Department of Corrective Services that was responsible for his terrible passing.  Make no mistake I believe that every situation should be reviewed thoroughly and transparently however it would appear that no such rules of openess and honesty be applied by the media commentariate.  I disagree with your assertion that the WA Police Commissioner “should have thought of the race element in it”.  I believe that the principles of justice should supersede the boundaries of race and that by equivocating an issue simply because it involved a person of one race serves only to further marginalise that group of persons from the greater community.  Unfortunately Mr Mitchell, through his own decision making process, as deficient as it has proven to be, has put himself into this position.  Police did not simply arrive and call on “someone” to come out of the house.  People called the police and they have a duty of care to every person there, Mr Mitchell included.  Unfortunately Jay would have you believe that a “bit of patience on behalf of the boys in blue and the guy would have just passed out eventually - he was chroming after all”.  This is unfortunately as deluded a belief as those usually existing in an addicts mind.  If Jay had actually confront ed a “chromer” or similar in his life, he would know that his suggestions are implausible to be polite.  It is very simple to blame the police, and yes let’s face it, it is absolutely very highly likely the taser set him on fire, but to blame or marginalise the police for a failure on the WA public and government to appropriately deal with the issues confronting these communities is such a stupid idea that it could only be published by the media.

And to return to what I said before please research your materials more thoroughly before trying to unfairly link an organisation to an event (i.e. - Mr Ward’s death to the WA Police).

Pissed off boy in blue says:

07:51pm | 21/07/09

The rules are simple: A taser is only to be used “to prevent injury to any person”. Therefore the use was within policy guidelines. End of story. Regardless of whether it ignited the fuel he was about to throw on the Police or not the use was justified. Having 3rd degree burns and beating heart is still preferable to a bullet in the chest and a funeral.  If this idiot had his way there would be 40-odd diferent scenarios listed in when you can/can’t use it. This desk monkey clearly doesn’t realise incidents likethis happen quicker than even his brain can what-if? that many scenarios.

jonno says:

08:14pm | 21/07/09

What scares me is how the police have become masters of the media.

Before any victim has a chance to tell his side of the story the police are all over it. And the story is always the same…. From the police all we here is how they had no other choice. What crap.

The reality is in these situations is that there are multiple police armed to the teeth, with plenty of time and training shoot dead/taser some poor guy who is typically a mental patient.

The options they had were simple… move away to a safe distance.
It is the aggro attitude of the police who come ready to pick a fight that are the problem. To much ego and not enough patience.

In this case they knew the guy was trouble but still managed to make a bad situation worse.

Sounds like we are becoming a police state where only the police get to say what happened. They should shut their mouths and speak only when spoken to… in court.

Diddums says:

08:38pm | 21/07/09

The police officer has acted appropriately.  If they were at the address wanting him to come outside it was probably because they had concerns for the safety of the occupants who most likely called for police assistance in the first place.  Once there police can not simply walk away, they are the last port of call and must resolve the issue. Dealing with violent people high on drugs, booze petrol or whatever is not easy and the average street copper deals with these people on a regular basis.  It is a credit to them that incidents like this do not occur more frequently.  At the end of the day the officer has a responsibility to himself and his colleagues first and he deserves support not condemnation.

John Connor says:

08:41pm | 21/07/09

Police State, Over Reacting Cops, Cowboys, yes I can see where you are all coming from.  You all took that lesson in hind sight didnt you.  Try putting yourself in their position and see if you would act any different.  I highly doubt it.  As for you Mr David Penberthy, perhaps you could take a lesson out of the book of a Criminal Physciatrist from the states.  He like you used to find the worst in every Police action.  After being told, like you no doubt, he had no idea what he was talking about joined the Police Force.  Now seeing as you will have a great library of information, you go find out who it was.  But first, join the W.A. Police Force, forget your predjudices and walk that fine blue line.  Then come back in say 2 years and give us your opinion.  I do feel sorry for the family of the man, but, I feel more for the officer’s and their family.

Ryan says:

08:49pm | 21/07/09

Really, I support the police 100% in this.  No police officer should have to risk getting burned by someone who is being hostile towards them.  Mr Eggington says Tasers should be a weapon of last resort - so what are guns for? Does Mr Eggington believe guns could be used before Tasers? A shot to the leg to drop and subdue him? Of course not, we’d be told how racist the police were in using too much force and Eggington would know doubt say “Why didn’t they just Taser him?”.  Don’t get me started on how Eggington would have responded to the use of a baton.

Ronin says:

08:53pm | 21/07/09

Karl O’Callaghan for PM!

AC says:

09:02pm | 21/07/09

Classic article written by an armchair critic who can not imagine in his wildest thoughts what a situation like this would be like.  Love to see the aithor end up severely injured and then spend a life time re-assessing what he should have done to save himself.  Does anyone know what happened at this point - NO.  You all only know about 10% of it.

Rick big brother knows what is best says:

09:06pm | 21/07/09

I,m with Jay. What ever happened to police negotiations? Confrontation always ends in escalating what is sometimes only a minor problem.

Darryl Price says:

09:08pm | 21/07/09

Sniffing petrol - risk taking behaviour
Brandishing a lighter and a container of petrol whilst being aggressive toward others - risk taking behaviour
The outcome is the result of risk taking behaviour by an individual.
The police on the other hand are trained not to take risks and put themselves in danger. This concept may seem strange - nevertheless it is correct. It is unfortunate that this lighter wielding petrol soaked person caught fire, but a consequence of their own risk taking behaviour.

Langdon says:

09:22pm | 21/07/09

Agree with Jonno - its not a “win/lose” game - if the peep isnt directly threatening someone, there is no reason to rush in and everything to gain by taking it casually. (remember that poor French dude shot on Bondi Beach? 4 cops around him, all with handguns, no one else anywhere near him, and cause he lunged with a knife they shot him?!?!?!).

I blame what we pass off as ‘police training’ these days - instead of having extended the training period over the years into something approaching a Doctorate, we have reduced it to something like 6 months - I’m sorry that doesnt prepare the average citizen for the a law ENFORCEMENT job. Almost no actual martial arts training, no serious expectation of physical excellence - surely the bare minimum we should be expecting from the citizens we allow to openly carry deadly weapons and to whom we give power of life & death, is a brown belt in Akido (personally would prefer black belt).

With proper selection, training and expectations of excellence, an officer would be less inclined to ‘react’ to situations and be confident in their ability to control situations sooo much better.  Just giving em a gun/taser to use in the worse case situations is negligence, cause a badly trained ‘officer’ will feel fear/threat too quickly and respond with excessive power;.

David JC says:

09:26pm | 21/07/09

Pissed Off Boy In Blue said, “The rules are simple: A taser is only to be used “to prevent injury to any person” Therefore the use was within policy guidelines. End of story.” Now I realise that, for the most part, police aren’t recruited on the basis of their highly refined skills in complex reasoning and abstract thought, but how can he reconcile that statement with the fact that there were actually two people injured as a result of the officers actions? One of whom being the officer himself. His actions hardly “prevented injury” did they? So it seems, on the face of it, that the policy wasn’t followed sufficiently at all. I can’t see why POBIB finds it so difficult to make that connection although I would assume that it is because he is of the type of officer so common today. The pig headed arrogance of alot of these (mainly younger, male) officers is astounding. I’ve seen meat-headed 21 year old Probationary Constables argue points of law with magistrates and District Court judges because “Thats what we were taught at the academy”, as though six months running around a field dragging a 70kg dummy qualifies him in the finer points of statutory interpretation.

I’m no civil libertarian, but as a community we were told that Tasers were only going to be deployed in circumstances that would otherwise require the use of lethal force. How many police shootings do we have, on average, every year throughout Australia? Two or three? And yet now it seems that Tasers are being deployed at least a couple of times every week, depending on the jurisdiction. How has frontline policing deteriorated so drastically in the past few months that officers now need to deploy potentially lethal force so regularly? A cynic might argue that it is a reflection on the sub-standard training and quality of recruits being employed by police services nationwide. If POBIB is reflective of the average copper, then I think we have a few things to worry about.

BG says:

09:28pm | 21/07/09

To all the arm chair experts.  No moatter whatPolice do they are condemmed.  Walk in a Polic Officers shoes for awhile.  Police are not there to put their lives at unnecessary risk.  They have families to go home to.  Police are taught that their safety is first.  After all if the Police are taken out who is standing between these law breakers and thelaw abiding citizen.  The police make a judgement call in the heat of th moment, because unlike the arm chair critics they don’t have the luxaryof hindsight.  Let the incident be fully investigated before you make your ill informed opinions public.

E.Blair says:

09:29pm | 21/07/09

Has there been a comprehensive study carried out on the psychological impact of the persistent use of tasers by the police on the public? I will assume we have all heard of the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment? I honestly question what psychological impacts that the use of tasers will have on the police officers…it would require the officer to completely crush their sense of empathy towards the victim and thus dehumanize themselves. Are we going to end up down the track twenty years from now dealing with the mental health problems of tens of thousands of police officers? Going on our previous records in regards to our Vietnam veterans we will deny a problem till half of them have destroyed their life through alcohol. Not to mention what a dehumanized police force will do to the public in the interim years? I think that any officer who uses a taser on a member of the public in unfit for duty on mental health grounds…only some one disturbed could treat another human being in such a way.

Stuart says:

09:32pm | 21/07/09

As a serving Police officer who has been in a similar situation with an Aboriginal male, convicted previously numerous times for violent offences, armed with a weapon all the while trying to set himself and ourselves on fire after emptying a fuel container over his head, those who question the actions of Police should try dealing with a situation like that in real time, where your and your partners safety is in immediate danger. Again in a regional area where Police numbers are stretched thin.
It this case, we did not have tasers (still dont) and resorted to the use of capsicum spray which fortunately for us worked on this fellow. Next option was firearm. But then all the do-gooders would cry foul that the pain caused by the spray mixed with the petrol is cruel and inhumane. Simple fact is although these options will cause pain, the risk of dying is much less than that of a firearm. Best way to avoid these situations, dont put Police in a position where they have to defend themselves or other members of the public. Only one person is to blame for this, and it wasnt the Police officer.

Jonno, Police arent suppose to make comment on events that make national news? Read any of the articles on the major news web sites and read the comments made by the family and see how wrong your post is. We will welcome you to the real world when you are ready to join us.

Mike says:

10:00pm | 21/07/09

How can the cops be expected to just back away and wait it out, hoping for him (and the situation) to calm down? How is that fulfilling their duty?

How do you think Mr. Penberthy would react if the proverbial were to hit the fan while they’re sitting idle, particularly given the guy has had an illustrious carrer spent working with the police?
There’s no column without material.

TG says:

10:33pm | 21/07/09

Penbo, I normally like your work, but I think you’re way off-base on this one.  I have no time for race-baiters, and I hate to say it but that’s precisely what you’re doing here by suggesting that this is a “racial” issue.

I can guarantee you that here in WA, if a known violent offender who was also known to be under the influence of a drug known to cause users to become even more violent (and a drug which also causes severe deterioration in mental processes including permanent loss of self-control centers in longterm users) came charging at police officers carrying a cigarette lighter and a container believed to contain fuel, and failed to stop when warned, and the police had valid concerns for their safety, it matters not how much fricken melanin his skin has - he will very likely be tased.

The only other options for the police would have been
(a) shoot him dead with a gun
(b) run away

Neither of these would strike any sane person - at least not any sane West Australian - as a suitable option.

And as a postscript, please note what Leo (above) wrote.  His whole comment is spot-on, but you really need to heed the fact that our police in WA have nothing to do with the private security company employed by the Department of Corrective Services.

I’m really disappointed that you’ve taken the tack you have on this issue.  Your conclusion, that “this latest case suggests a pattern of white indifference, or worse,” is contemptible.  Expecting our police to treat different criminals differently solely because of their race as you seem to suggest is ... wait for it ... racist.

TG says:

10:44pm | 21/07/09

By the way, in answer to your tweet promoting this story, where you roar “what the hell is going on in WA?”, do you mean “What the hell is going on in WA that drug-crazed violent offenders think that they can charge with impunity at our public servants, threatening them with lighters and petrol?”

Dunno, mate.  What do YOU think the answer to that one is?  That would be a more honest subject for you to tackle than the lame race-bating effort you offer up in its stead.

Northern Light says:

10:52pm | 21/07/09

Somebody has to police this state and if our cops run out of things to say to defuse a situation then i say go ahead and use force. Remember who is in the wrong here people,  there was a man high on Petrol for F*#k sake and on top of that he was threatening the safety of not only the police officers but himself. HE is the danger to society, if he hadn’t of been doing wrong in the first place none of this would have happened. Remember who the BAD GUYS are!

Ian Davies says:

10:59pm | 21/07/09

Aboriginals need SPECIAL attention, NOT COPS who shoot or taser them, do you blockheads understand that? They said they knew the person and they knew his circumstances and that he was an indigenous person, what they should have done was leave him alone, he had committed no crime, and when he has sobered up send a doctor and medical team to look after his problems, take him to hospital, not cops without brain armed to the teeth.The alleged confrontation was brought on by police, the poor chap reacted in an expected manner, and I dont believe a single word the cops said about him coming towards them, just their usual perjury and corroborated lies. WA where police investigates police, like having the fox look after the henhouse.

Davo from St Kilda says:

11:14pm | 21/07/09

You just have to love the armchair critics who have the benefit of taking all the time they want to judge the actions of the police who have to make a decision in seconds. They then proceed to tell the police what they should and should not have done, all the while sitting comfortably at their computer. If the police officer hesitates, he could be seriously injured or even killed.
Jonno, what proof do you have that the police ‘came ready to pick a fight’?  Or that the police have an ‘aggro attitude’?  You have the right to your opinion but I guarantee you that the vast majority of Australians disagree with you. We respect the tough job our police have to do and, unlike you, we don’t’ second-guess every action they take. If you are so sure about your convictions then don the blue uniform and lead from the front, not from the comfort of your keyboard

Boy in blue 2 says:

11:14pm | 21/07/09

We are the ones that go towards those that threaten you and yours!

‘Tactical withdrawl’, ‘running away’, ‘waiting for a little while’ whatever you want to call it, can and does in CERTAIN circumstances work, however there are times where the ‘line in the sand’ must be drawn.

There seems to be this assumption by certain members of the press and public that we are all testosterone fuelled Tackleberry wannabes with no thought process. It makes me sick to my stomach when people who have never once had to deal with a violent/disturbed person think they are experts in the matter.

I have been kicked, punched, bitten, spat on and threatened in my career, but I never once heard these ‘bleeding hearts’ making comment against those that committed these acts of violence against me.

I challenge those who think they can do better to get off the couch, put on the uniform and do it yourself…

I would also like to point out that, the people who find it so easy to criticise and bang on about gung ho cops are always the first to call us when the s**t hits the fan…funny how they can’t wait for us to get there to deal with their problems then eh?

COPS DO NOT WANT TO HURT PEOPLE. FACT!

To those who see the reality of the situations we face thank you heaps for your support, it means a lot.

I hope that the Commissioner reads these posts because as a front line officer I want to say: “Boss, thanks for not backing down, Tasers do help to keep us safe”

Thelma says:

11:16pm | 21/07/09

TG - go put a sock in it, you have provided enough evidence of your intellect which almost ranks alongside the african wildebeest, not quite as smart though.  WA is about 50 years behind the rest of Australia, a mining outpost with corrupt politicians and a sadistic and brutal police force, welcome Adolf Hitler this is your state, you TG, are the quintessential racist, all brawn no brain.

concerned says:

11:23pm | 21/07/09

the following is allegations about an incident that happened about 5 or 6 years ago. these allegations are from people who saw and heard things.

there is a case in newman where an ambulance was called to a collapsed man-bevan ward- in the aboriginal community-parpajinya(500 metres from town). the ambulance arrived with only one paramedic on it and called for police to help.

the ambulance and police arrived. their story was the man wouldnt get in the ambulance so they both left him there, collapsed on the gravel.

the next morning he was dead where they left him.

what happened. nothing.

the police said they couldnt force him to get in ambulance to get help so they left before the ambulance left.

the ambulance said the same.

the relatives and friend said the police and ambulance left him to die.

does this sound right!

check it out, im sure there is a story in it.

Leo says:

11:23pm | 21/07/09

Well, my search is now over, I have found quite possibly the most idiotic, poorly informed, insulated comment ever produced into a blog as follows:

“what they should have done was leave him alone, he had committed no crime, and when he has sobered up send a doctor and medical team to look after his problems, take him to hospital, not cops without brain armed to the teeth…...”

Ian Davies, I salute you….The greater community need no longer search for God or the omnipotent being one chooses to believe in, Ian Davies in fact would appear to know all…The world is now at one

MikeC says:

11:26pm | 21/07/09

David Penberthy, You write absolute garbage and have lost what any little credibility you previously had. Actually you are right on one point, if the police weren’t there this would not have happened. So let us sack them all, and live in the wonderful law abiding world that this would create. Surely that is what you believe?.

Chris of Rockingham says:

12:04am | 22/07/09

I believe that one of the reasons criminals run amok and seem not to care about the law or the lawful instruction of the Police is because they have no respect for either one.  Take the Taser’s off of the Police, issue them with decent batons and give them permission to use the Glock .40 on their hip to shoot dead offenders that do not behave themselves.  In very short order you will here the rat-bags say “yes sir” and you will see a reduction in crime.  We have a soft enforcement service, a soft court system and holiday camps for prisons, where, just where is the deterrent value in this.  As for the comments of other posters that Aboriginal’s are a major part of the prison population and a small part of the overall population, and that they also commit a lot of crimes, in many cases this is so that they can go to prison and see a dentist and see their mates.  There is no deterrent value.

Barney Canaldigger says:

12:46am | 22/07/09

Fact: WA has a population of about 2.2 million about 25% of what London alone has, yet we are told by Karl O Callaghan that WA is so violent that cops here need to carry, Glock hand guns, tasers, pepperspray, batons and mobile communication devises, the London cops make do with just a baton policing nearly 10 million?  The WA population apparently not only the most violent in the world they are also the most stupid in the world, they can only buy alcohol in licenced designated premises, they can only drink at certain hours, they cannot drink without eating a meal at the same time,  they cannot be trusted with alcohol, the indigenous population too is the most violent in the world, 5 times as many aboriginals are in jail in WA then their white fellow citizens, police in order to protect the WA population from these criminals need to shoot, maim, taser or otherwise brutalize these uncontrollables.

jonno says:

12:47am | 22/07/09

Well ok, I have to concede some points here.

No-one expects police to be perfect and pretty much everyone supports them 100% except in circumstances like this. Personally I think that if someone pulls a gun on a policeman then basically they deserve what they get.

That does not mean however that members of the public cannot criticise the force. After all it is the public they protect. Nor should we the public be condemned as arm-chair critics. Many of us ARE former police officers, ALL of us live under the law and it’s law enforcement people. That gives us the right to have certain expectations.

One of those expectations is that the police will use the minimum force necessary. Another expectation is that police will be trained and capable of dealing with violent and potentially violent scenario’s. A big part of being in law enforcement is having the ability to resolve situations without force. The ultimate goal is take a violent scenario and make it non-violent without the use of force.

Is it possible that a better outcome could have been achieved? Yes, I think it could have been resolved better. Now I am not 100% sure of that because I wasnt there, but the trouble is the police have lost a lot of credibility in the past by killing people unnecessarily.

Further credibility is lost because the police never EVER get disciplined for their mistakes. If I made the equivalent mistakes that police make in my job I would be on the dole. Take for example the police officer in Victoria who pulled in a woman on a warrant for the sole purpose of practising a ‘strip’ search. That cost the tax payer hundreds of thousands of dollars (she sued and won - not surprisingly) but didnt cost the officer her job. Hmmm… talk about job security.

Furthermore, the spruiking by police media spokesman post ‘tragic event’ always smacks of a cover up. You cant help but feel they are trying to influence any inquiry or court hearing - you can almost see the furtive paranoia creeping into their faces and voices. This is not the role of the police to doctor the media and get out ‘spin’. It discredits the police and their officers.

Finally, one could mention that the disgraceful support of Victorian police officers for a Police Union that had so obviously been corrupted was absolutely disgraceful. Any respect I had for Victorian police was lost at that moment.

Lastly, one bit of advice. Stop needlessly killing people and you will get people’s respect back.

Ryan says:

12:48am | 22/07/09

E.Blair - I can’t imagine how you could bring the Stanford Prison Experiment to a situation like this.  The use of a Taser means the officer can defend themself or someone else by subdueing a hostile person without causing the huge trauma that bullets and batons deliver.  No one expected this idiot to go up in flames, its not like he was some innocent bystander concerned with his own health, he was a violent petrol sniffer, a loser.  The police could hardly just run away from him and leave him free to hurt whoever had called the police in the first place when they had options could they?  Its a very sad no win situation.  But hopefully the guy will be able to improve his life from here on and get off the petrol and be happy he wasn’t shot and make something of his life.

Shannon of Perth says:

12:57am | 22/07/09

Of course they found a lighter.  And according to Police, it was the “Taser or the Gun”..  Well I suppose they would have shot him in the head if they had the gun instead?  Oh, it’s okay to shoot someone in the head.  It’s *only* a Taser.. 

Police don’t deserve an ounce of sympathy here.  Time that our Police Commissioner was held to account.  Non lethal weapons are now used frivolously.

office monkey says:

01:38am | 22/07/09

The real story here is the heroic action of the copper who put the guy out, with his bare hands, receiving severe burns in the process, while being hit in the head with rocks thrown by associates of the guy whose life he was saving.

Put yourself in that situation.

If he wasn’t a cop he would be branded a hero by the media.

My job doesn’t require me to willingly injure myself to help others. You have to respect what these guys do. And you have to respect there judgement when they make a decision to defend themselves against injury or death, by unflicting injury on others.

Beamer says:

01:50am | 22/07/09

Karl’s Kowboy Kops ride again - quick on the trigger and then they spend the rest of the day massaging their report to put the best possible shine on it.  At then of the day we now have the hapless victim charging at the heroic blue line brandishing a dangerous liquid armed with a cigarette lighter and intent. Our heroes, in fear and trembling for their lives, had an honest and genuine fear for their lives and shot him IN THE NOSE with their tasar!!!!!  Whatever happened to good old real policing in this country???
Thank you Punch for the opportunity to speak out against this abuse of authority - here in Perth only the police can comment - the police controlled media do not allow public comment in response to the changing and outrageous reporting by the police spin doctors or their tame police reporters.

Ryan says:

04:03am | 22/07/09

concerned - as for the Bevan Ward case: you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.  You can not force someone into an ambulance against their conscious wishes.  If he wanted to put up a fuss and refuse help its not the police or ambulance crews job to force him to seek medical care.  They have more important things to do than try force some idiot into their care, their may be people who want their help instead.

DP says:

04:56am | 22/07/09

I am a serving Police Officer in a remote country community, about 80%of the population is aboriginal. I have been in the Police service for 16 years, and i have worked both country and metro locations, including high risk squads/teams where we deal with some extremely violent criminals where we have to have our wits about us, as most of the criminals we dealt with wouldn’t hesitate in injuring you if given the opportunity…

I have just finished my shift, and during my shift, i visit our aboriginal community here in town, as we got out of our car, about 40 of the local aboriginal kids ran up to us to say g’day, every single one of them knows mine and my partner’s first name and everyday they yell out to me when they see me… we had a kick of the footy with them, had a chat with them, ensured they were being fed that night, and if not i make arrangements that they get a feed… (considering mum and dad and rest of family were flaked out after being on VB cans all day, that would be about 95% of the kids…) then i ensured the same kids would be going to school tomorrow… of which the response was ” if you give us a lift”  ..which means i will be back up at 8am to get them to school, then i will start work again at 3pm that afternoon for another shift of the same sort of thing…. Do you know why i do this, because as a Police officer, i CARE…. no one else will be out doing this .. i know that, because i witness it day in day out…I often get asked by tourist’s who witness me interacting with the local aboriginals how i manage to have their trust, its easy… as i said earlier, i care….i challenge you Perth armchair critics to come out into the real world and do the things that country coppers have to do… but i couldn’t imagine anyone leaving their castles in Perth or even the bigger country towns like Kalgoorlie where all the services are provided to ensure you wouldn’t have to actually do something like that…

In these communities i police (get that word.. i POLICE), every now and again someone does something stupid, where some sort of force is going to be needed to get the situation under control… and i will not hesitate to use that force, i make no apology for that.
What goes through your head in about 1.2 seconds as someone is running towards you with knife or a nulla-nulla stick or a tin of petrol and a lighter… run or fight, which weapon, where are other members of the community (if i have to draw my firearm, i have to ensure no one else is going to be in my line of fire…) etc etc….
now if you have an 18 year old aboriginal male who plays a lot of footy or runs around all day long… who is extremely fit… and he is charging at you with a knife after having a blue with his mrs who he has threatened to stab… you expect us to run away and sort it later?????? yeah right… then if i did that, and i end up in coroners court after he goes back and kills the girl he threatened, i will be asked ” why didn’t you stop the threat? that’s why we arm you?” i would hope you armchair lawyers would have the right answer for me, cause i will need it!

As for Penberthy’s comments you really have shown your true colours there..It was a privatised company that was involved… how that equates in anyway to the Police Service i have no idea… before it was privatised, can you tell me how many incidents like the Ward debacle occurred when Police used to escort people remanded in custody???? i think you will be surprised at what you find…

Police officers have a bloody hard job, but i wouldn’t have it any other way, but i tell you what, i will quite eagerly take anyone out who wants to experience life on the beat and how quickly a situation can go from situation normal to “pear shaped” especially in these aboriginal communities that everyone seems to conveniently like to forget about where there is no backup to help us…

think about it in your own occupations… how many times do you make a decision or speak to a customer or client and then go…hmmmm i should have done that a bit differently later on when the dust has settled and you lost a sale or a client took business elsewhere???? same theory people in my occupation.. so think about that for a second, cause you might have just lost a sale, but that same decision making process means life and death to any number of people if a police officer gets it wrong!!!

So to all you people out there kicking the coppers, can you come out, ensure the kids are being fed and taken to school for me, and make sure you deal with any other problem they feel confident enough to confide in you with when they knock on your door at 3am, ensure there are no domestic issues amongst the mainly intoxicated adults of these communities… cause apparently us coppers are all just out for a blue and to inflict pain on people…

to everyone else out there supporting the Police, i thank you, and i am heartened that we do have some sort of support out there..

TG says:

05:08am | 22/07/09

Thelma @ 11:16

What a shining exemplar you are of the enlightened, ‘progressive’ Eastern states! 

How soundly we in the West will sleep tonight knowing that our cultural and intellectual superiors the other side of the Nullarbor, you foremost amongst them, are on the case ...
...
...
...AND on the other side of the Nullarbor.

Xusia says:

08:06am | 22/07/09

David, I read your article with interest. However, I am at a loss to understand why you played the race card in your writing. Regardless of this offender’s race, he was a known violent offender. This by itself would be enough to put any sane police officer on his guard when approaching the person. The media have become rabid in their sensationalism of any news story that could be attacked from the race angle, and the only result that I can see from this approach is that racism has become worse instead of better. In order to report responsibly and in an unbiased fashion, the mention that this offender is an Aborigine should be struck from the public record. You are just fueling an already heavily burning fire by suggesting that the reason this fellow was tasered is because of his ethnicity.

The bottom line is that no matter what colour, creed, religion or sexual preference, there are really bad people out there, and our police need to be given a medal just for turning up to work each day to combat them. Moreover, whenever something like this happens, the police ARE NOT ALLOWED to tell their side of the story except through their official media channels.

So the bad guy gets to be on “A Current Affair” saying that the cop did this and the cop did that, lying through their teeth most of the time, and the poor old copper has to sit at home with his mouth shut watching himself being publicly slandered without being able to so much as whisper a reply for fear of violating his code of conduct. And then he STILL comes to work the next day.

So please, please stop playing the racial card to garner readership, and think carefully of the policeman - who is human believe it or not, and is subject to human failings and human FEELINGS. And in most cases the policeman is a person of good moral standing in the community, with high integrity, and is a productive member of society. The petrol-sniffing violent offender is someone to be felt sorry for, because he may not be able to get himself out of the vicious circle inside which he is trapped, but for God’s sake DON’T make him the hero at the cost of the police officer’s standing and integrity.

Because although you feel sorry for him, the fact remains that he is at worst an evil person, at best a lawbreaker, and in a confrontation, I will always be hoping and praying that the police officer comes out alive and with his sanity intact. And for anybody who thinks that tasers and guns and capsicum spray shouldn’t be part of a policeman’s accoutrement, try to imagine yourself in a situation where someone is attacking you with the intent to kill you, because he is out of his wits on drugs or alcohol. He won’t stop if you ask nicely - he’s gonna KILL YOU. What do you do? This wouldn’t happen to most people in their lifetime, and most people would not be able to come up with a true answer until it did happen. I for one am all for effective deterrents in the hands of police, merely so that they have the means to protect their own lives. And they don’t use them indiscriminately. They follow a strict set of procedures, and the sheer quantity of paperwork involved after deployment of any deterrent is usually enough for the average policeman to try non-violent means in every situation before resorting to the use of the spray, taser or gun.

Mick says:

08:47am | 22/07/09

Just take the Tasers off them and leave them with their Guns. Should solve a lot of problems with repeat violent offenders.

Ian says:

09:17am | 22/07/09

Just for once, will people like Jay stop suggesting police shoot people in the legs.  Try it some time on a moving target that is trying to hurt you.  It is a gazillion to one shot.  So until you have walked in our shoes, see what we see,  shut the f..k up about it.  And nice one to the d…head journo for trying to turn it into a racial issue.  Perhaps you should look at the outrage of this person making a police officer have to use a tactical option rather than not breaking the law.  I guess that just isn’t sensational enough though is it?

Frank K says:

09:43am | 22/07/09

This is a reply to Ian (9;17am)  So you are a police officer. You sound like a very angry person, and it appears this is your ‘attitude’ when you deal with the public. Do you always tell people to shut the f**k up when speaking to them?

Leo says:

10:19am | 22/07/09

This is a reply to Frank K (9:43am) So you are not a police officer and instead are qualified in assessing the psychopathy of an individual on the basis of a singular paragraph.  You sound like a very incompetent person, and it appears that this would likely pervade your everyday behaviour and that you would instantly judge a person based upon a singular comment or action.  Do you always intentionally bait a person who is clearly expressing frustration at the unabated ill-informed rhetoric appearing within a blog?

If, however, Frank you had any knowledge what so ever of any of these issues, in particular the highly emotive nature that they are of, you would understand that there is considerably more at play here that a singular incident and unfortunately input such as yours serves only to perpetuate a problem, you do nothing to solve it, nothing at all, which in fact makes your actions even more guilty than those of people involved.  Society is full of people standing up to make a difference, some are doctors, some are nurses, some are teachers, some are police, some are politicians, some are journalists, some are foster parents, some are lobbyists, some are unemployed….Do you try and make a difference Frank K?  or is your contribution to this blog as far as you go?

Zoe says:

10:52am | 22/07/09

there will always be those people in society who shout and whinge about the police, some soppy lefties who seem to have this silly idea that life without police would be much better (or those who have been ‘involved’ with the police in their professional capacity). maybe they should all go set up this utopia on some island somewhere, see how long it takes for anarchy to set in.
as for comments about london and uk cops doing ok with only batons - i can tell you now if there are any situations where violent armed offenders are apparent they are straight on the radio to the armed police. they have never been armed - that doesn’t mean they should never be armed. nor does it mean we should take tasers or guns from aussie cops.

if i was in some sort of situation where i needed to call 000 i would much rather the police turned up armed, so that if/when the s*it hits the fan they can look after me and my family. imagine if i called them and they had some of your attitudes of ‘walk away and let it calm down and go back for a chat’. if i am being threatened or my family is, i want that person brought down and quite frankly i would not care how the police did it. and i would bet all the money in the world that all you police bashers on here would be exactly the same. it is so easy to sit on your backside and pass judgement on everyone else. if you know a police officer you know what they have to deal with, crap from all sides including their own at times - but you support them. if we do not support them, who will help us? who will come out at 3am when you need them and dial 000? who will have your back when you are in trouble? none of these whingers and holier than thou people on here that is for sure. maybe everyone should make acquantance with a police officer and hear their stories and try to walk a few steps in their boots and imagine doing their job. any cops reading this - you have my support. i don’t just listen to the headlines, i read the stories and hear the reports and wade through all the histrionics and form my own opinion. and my opinion is - you deal with all the s*it on our streets, made by people who have no respect for themselves or anyone else, and i THANKYOU for looking after us.

Andrew says:

10:57am | 22/07/09

would you be making such a fuss if it was a white man who was tasered????
nope, didn’t think so.

He put himself in that position by sniffing petrol and being violent. The police officer did the right thing morons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve says:

11:19am | 22/07/09

So David,

what you are saying is the only reason he was tasered was because he was aboriginal?????

rob_399 says:

11:59am | 22/07/09

white, black, aboriginal or not. doesn’t matter. don’t act up in a stupid threatening way and police won’t have to respond.
get a grip.
taser, truncheon or handgun? or should we take them all off the police and just leave them a whistle. why not dress them in a tutu as well. what should the poor copper have done? asked him if he wanted to join his support network?

barry says:

12:18pm | 22/07/09

I am always amused by the standard ‘if you are not a police officer you don’t know what you are talking about’ line.  It is a substitute for ’ I have very poor education and limited communication skills. I cannot construct a logical argument so will abuse the media and Mr Penberthy for having the temerity to write an interesting article’

Bozo says:

12:34pm | 22/07/09

It seems to me if we (the media?) allowed the police to conduct a proper enquiry into the situation, and what could be done to prevent it in future, instead of rushing in to congratulate or condemn without knowing fully the facts, then the sort of bravado demonstrated by the Commissioner would be unnecessary.  But we don’t so it will.

elsbrook says:

12:48pm | 22/07/09

Some of you critics are unbelievable. What would have had the cops do, wait until he thru the petrol at them followed by the lighter? Have you had any experience with violent petrol sniffers? have you been to any of these communities? Have you ever been threatened with violence? The answer to all of these questions is likely “yes”. As the Comm. said, the alternative was to shoot him. Take the blinkers off people and just think about the circumstances. Also bear in mind that in WA police do not have workers compensation. If it were me I probably would have drawn and fired. (no pun intended)

DC says:

01:09pm | 22/07/09

After 15 years of service I chose to leave.

Now I just need to switch off from listening to all the armchair peanuts.

YarsRevenge says:

04:12pm | 22/07/09

It seems to me that there is no doubt that further investigation into the actual cause of the fire should not have been halted. No matter what, seeing that the actual cause of the fire isn’t clear it absolutely should have been investigated. That being said, if the man had ran at the cop with what was believed to be petrol and a lighter and he refused to stop then I see no issue as to whether or not the cop was in the right to fire the taser. Essentially the cop was being come at with a very dangerous weapon, indeed, police are armed with weapons such as tasers , batons, and even guns to protect themselves in such cases. It’s hard to have a clean cut opinion though since the investigation was halted so we don’t really know for absolute sure what the details are. Indeed, it should have been further investigated, but if the man was actually coming at the officer with a can of petrol and a lighter I would have to side with the officer… wow, it’s pretty rare for me to do that when it comes to stories like these.

zoe says:

05:42pm | 22/07/09

barry my opinion that it may help people to understand what police have to go through is formed by the comments on here from people who evidently do not know what they have to go through, judging by what they have stated. it is not down to poor education or communication skills. it is down to the fact that comments on here that the police apparently just make their own rules, that they go out intending to bash people, that they are racist, that they could have done this, should have done that, should have left the bloke alone, let him quieten down etc. if they know what the cops do and how hard they (mostly) work, they may think twice.
i suggest you should read all of the comments posted here, and maybe see that, actually, comments displaying a poor education - at least regarding the work the police do - is on display by the people having a go at our police, and not by those supporting them.
and it makes perfect sense that if you do not know about somebody’s life you cannot understand it. same with jobs. i cannot understand about how doctors work, as i don’t know any doctors, or nurses. you clearly cannot construct any kind of logical argument if you think you can opine about matters you have not researched or got a background or working knowledge of.

jonno says:

01:46am | 23/07/09

Here is another example of ‘bad boy’ cops.

“In the original judgment, Justice Smith found Carter and Sesin created false accounts of big parts of their evidence.

Carter is still a police officer. Sesin resigned a year after the incident.”
(http://www.theage.com.au/national/payout-for-police-assault-20090723-dtph.html)

Is it any wonder the police have no credibility. Cry wolf one to many times…

Ryan says:

05:04am | 23/07/09

Shannon of Perth - in their place would you have just let the man, stoned on petrol fumes keep running at you and burn you? The police were called to the scene to help, they can’t just turn tail and run because they might hurt someone threatening them!  The criminal is always on the receiving end of sympathy here its ridiculous.  The used a less-lethal option not expecting that the man running at them would burst into flames, no one saw that happening.  But what do you suggest the police use against violent offenders like that? A shotgun loading with rocksalt or rubber pellets or something to that effect?  There is no easy answer.  Several years ago he would have just been shot somewhere in the centre of his mass (safest/best place to aim at a moving target) or the police may have received horrible or even fatal burns trying to subdue him with a baton or barehanded.  What would you have done?  Gotten burned? Abandoned those who called for your help? THINK

jonno says:

11:27am | 23/07/09

And another example… (my god how many do you need?)

“Evidence gathered during the operation suggests that opportunistic officers exploited both a lack of accountability and of supervision to take personal advantage of the informant funds,” the report said.

Some of the allegations raised in the report also suggested some police in the Armed Robbery Unit:

• Forged the signatures of informants.

• Knowingly furnished false documents.

• Falsely claimed payments had been made to informants.

• Misappropriated money from the informant funds.

• Fabricated audio recordings and written receipts as evidence payments had been made.

In one of the most stunning cover-ups, officers fabricated an audio tape as proof of payment to an informant.

Although they claimed the tape had been made in a Brisbane cafe during a meeting of two police officers and an informant, the CMC investigation found it was had been recorded in the police headquarters carpark using an officer “posing” as the informant.”
(http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25823172-421,00.html)

murray says:

06:23pm | 23/07/09

behave yourself and you dont get tasered, or shot.
I am sick of people sticking up for the offender, The Police didnt make him sniff petrol, it was his own choice and he know the outcome, because it wont have been the first time.
If you dont want the Police to react. Dont call them! handle it yourself. Then see what happens.
Have been on the receiving end of being shot at etc < not funny I can tell.
And I wasnt in the Police Force.
Act stupid and you will be treated accordingly.
Onya Police

Jas says:

08:00pm | 23/07/09

According to the http://www.stepforward.wa.gov.au/why/salary/ website the salary range for a police officer is $ 54000 -$76,116, plus shift penalities, but wait there is more, Other allowances - subject to individual circumstances at the time
Overtime ,District ,Travel ,Subsidised housing in selected country areas
Subsidised power and gas in selected country areas, Relieving,Transfer and Removal, Camping ,Disturbance ,Property, Higher duties ,Motor vehicle. Now this is what people are calling a low paid job. Sheesh, WA police could find themselves out a job if they keep killing and maiming their meal tickets. And they even et a bit of target practice in too.

kaz says:

11:58am | 25/07/09

Gotta laugh at most of these idiots comments on here. Why dont they join the police force and do a better job at it. Maybe go visit Northbridge Friday nights and see what these officers put up with . Bet they cant be bothered.
What a joke these officers recieve between $54000 and $76000. As far as I am concerned they do not get paid enough and is a low paid job.
Its a common fact you can go work up north earn inexcess of $130000 plus shift penalties ,travel allowance ,transfers and removal
get your rent at $1800 a week paid for, all your electricity and gas paid for,
flights to perth paid for when doing a course.and their life is not threatened.
Sheesh Jas you wanna prey that police officers dont   find themselves out of a job we will be in big TROUBLE or better still maybe you and the other idiots on here could do it for them.
How bout you all get on with your job and let them get on with theirs.

watto says:

09:18pm | 25/07/09

Take a few deep breaths and wait & watch (& demand) for a fair, transparent investigation. On a bigger scale this redneck Aussie impulse to rush in righteously and zap ‘them’ or judge before we get or consider the facts, has also cost the totally unnecessary loss of thousands of lives, maimings & serious burns of young US & some Aussie soldiers in Iraq etc (that a few bad apples aside are as dedicated to our protection as most police.)  Kangaroo courts and I-know-cuz-I’m-a-copper-or-the-chief of-police & I rabidly love-unquestioning-police-states, don’t cut it & is the domain of simple rednecks. And violent totalitarian governments and theocracies. Make a choice.

Mick Gold Coast QLD says:

11:41pm | 25/08/09

Who wrote this rubbish? Have you all gone mad over in WA? You don’t deserve a police force - put the petrol sniffers in charge of law and order and self immolate with them, swiftly. What a bunch of self righteous, hand wringing, grief stricken lunatics!

Bob says:

08:10am | 26/08/09

To DP, thank you for your comments about life as a cop in these areas.

This is a poorly researched article, strong on hyperbole and designed to create outrage rather than address the issues.

The only thing I can see in this to complain about is the apparent lack of independent investigation of the incident. This should be standard procedure in any state when serious injury or death results in the process of policing, regardless of race.