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Our troops deserve a mature debate, not a pissing contest

Tory Maguire

by Tory Maguire

13 Oct 05:40am

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Filed under: Afghanistan, Julia Gillard, Politics, Tony Abbott

92 comments

Let’s just clear up one thing before the parliamentary debate on Afghanistan starts. The Coalition supports the troops. The ALP supports the troops. We all support the troops.

My goggles are bigger than yours! Pictures: Gary Ramage

Questioning our role in Afghanistan and seeking clarity on our mission there does not equate to “disrespecting the troops” - despite that being the rhetorical fallback for people who think they’re at risk of somehow losing this important debate.

But both Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard seem to think the way to win politically (as opposed to the way to “win” the war) is to paint the other as inadequate in their support of the 1550 Australian men and women currently serving in Afghanistan.

They’ve both taken part in the undignified contest over which side is more gung-ho in its support of our diggers. Hopefully when the parliamentary debate commences next Tuesday in the House of Representatives, that particular competition will be well and truly over.

In a statement last night the Prime Minister said she “believed it was important that all Australians understood the critical mission in Afghanistan.” Well that would be a nice change.

Exactly who was responsible for leaking the news Gillard had invited Abbott on her Afghan jaunt is irrelevant. When the Opposition Leader made his ridiculous jet-lag excuse for not going with her, Gillard couldn’t help herself:

“I’ll let Mr Abbott work out his own sleeping patterns,” the Prime Minister said in Brussels, where she was attending the Asia-Europe meeting. “For myself, obviously, I went to Afghanistan, then to Zurich, then came here and did manage to get eight hours’ sleep last night and that prepared me for a very long day.”

At the time the dig must have had some impact. Yesterday’s Newspoll, which was taken after the jet-lag circus and before Abbott’s own trip to Oruzgan, showed a plunge in his level of public support.

The significance of this isn’t quite clear, however, as the Two Party Preferred vote remained unchanged, with respondents indicating if an election would be held today not much would change.

What it has done is motivate Abbott to conduct a second offensive on Gillard - dragging the stupid fight out well beyond its used-by-date - on two fronts.

On the first he charged Gillard with “bastardry” over his Afghan itinerary. On the second he accused her of having “stabbed in the back” the three soldiers who’ve been charged over the deaths of Afghan civilians.

Both leaders can say what they like about wanting to see for themselves what’s happening in Afghanistan. The fact is both trips were highly political acts designed to provide the best picture opportunity.

Anyone who’s actually been off the base at Tarin Kowt will tell them what’s really going on. You can read about it here from Punch contributor Jason Thomas.

Abbott and Gillard are engaged in is a sideshow that detracts from what’s important.

And it opens the door to distractions from constructive discussion like this one - when I wrote about the need for a debate on our mission back in August “Ceasar” got hot and bothered and ended his/her comment with: “If you don’t like the war, blame the government. Vote for the party that you believe will give you want you want. But don’t EVER blame the men and women who put their lives on the line for people who can’t defend themselves. Deployed troops deserve our respect, our gratitude and our support.”

The thing is, no one in the 173 other comments on the piece had tried to “blame the men and women who put their lives on the line.” It’s a straw man that ran out of stuffing about a decade after the end of the Vietnam War.

It’s a stupid comeback in an argument that deserves more - but Gillard and Abbott are feeding it with their competition to be the most khaki-friendly.

They need to get it out of their system and start focusing on the real issues, such as clarifying our mission, ensuring the military effort is backed up with resources for rebuilding Afghanistan, and finally telling the public what their real aims are from the conflict.

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92 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Walker Waters says:

      05:20am | 13/10/10

      Surely the time for a parliamentry debate on Afghanistan should have been 10 years ago. The coalition of the willing forged in to Afghanistan thinking it would be an easy and descisive conquest with no regard to the Russian experience of the 1970,s. This is where Howard,Bush and Blair failed absolutely,they are now all out of office and have left their successors the bloody task of trying to create an honorable victory .                                                                        It may well be a just cause to defeat terrorism,however more likely it will just lay dormant and then reemerge on another front. The writing is on the wall for Afghanistan,it is another Vietnam.                                                      Now the only option is more troops,more destruction,but we will always be the invaders on their soil and they will fight like hell on that basis alone. Hang your head in shame the Leaders of the bipartisan war for not having learnt from history,for not having a clear strategy and for not having the Debate before entering this war.

      Reply

    • Eskimo says:

      10:15am | 13/10/10

      The Soviets invade Afghanistan in 1980, hence the boycott of the Moscow Olympics. I expect their 1970s experience is totally irrelevant.

    • BookerT says:

      05:57am | 13/10/10

      Tory, I’ve never had any faith in the ALP, Kevin Rudd or Gillard in doing what is best for this country. Selfish people with selfish motives. Gillard started this pissing contest and she now has to finish it. We need a new election the country isn’t going anywhere and Gillard is trying to distract us with childish antics.

      Reply

    • Pete says:

      07:47am | 13/10/10

      BookerT another note like that and I’ll think you voted Liberal…Abbott made a fool of himself, the public is wise to him and it, along with their policy costing cover-up will bring them undone…those Libs can’t lie straight in bed

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      07:52am | 13/10/10

      BookerT says:05:57am; your post really does say a lot about how informed you are, really pal grow up, open your eye and stop looking at the world through those one eyed pair of glasses. Oh yeah get a life!

    • TimB says:

      09:04am | 13/10/10

      @ Rob R-

      Pot. Kettle. Black.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      09:31am | 13/10/10

      TimB says:09:04am; didn’t realise you were a racist too tiny tim…. of course you’re a snivelling lib

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      09:35am | 13/10/10

      Booker T :  Very well put , i agree fully.
      The P.M. has been caught out playing politics with standard security measures in a feeble attempt to use a gullible media to embarrass Tony Abbott.
      Australia has a real need for leadership but Gillard is unable or unwilling to provide a responsible course of government . Bring on another election.

    • Sven Gali says:

      09:58am | 13/10/10

      @ BookerT and Wayne. That’s not how it works in Australia. We don’t just keep holding elections until someone gets the result they wanted.

    • Christian Real says:

      10:48am | 13/10/10

      Tony Abbott made up the excuse of Jet Lagg, and he has no one else to blame except himself.
      Tony Abbott’s office excuse for him not visiting the Troops in a bipartisan goodwill visit , was “Scheduling Difficulties”
      The fact also remains that Tony Abbott allegedly arranged this visit to the troops directly with the Australian Defence Force, by passing the Prime Minister and her office, so it is possible that the prime Minister knew nothing of Tony Abbott’s Prior Arrangements.
      Also this from ” The Age”,
      “PM accused of stooping to bastardry” written by Peter Hartcher and Tarin Kowt, October 11,2010.
      “However the reporter who broke the story of Ms Gillard’s offer to Mr Abbott said that the disclosure did not come from the Prime Minister or her office.”
      “I did not learn about it from the government,” The Sydney Morning Herald’s Phillip Coorey said yesterday, implying that Mr abbott was making a serious charge against Ms Gillard based on a misunderstanding.
      * The fact that Tony Abbott is trying to shift the blame away from himself, and he is not man enough to admit that he had erred in what he had said, indicates that the Liberal Party should replace him with a Leader that has more credibility and integrity.
      The photo shoots of Tony Abbott playing with Military weapons shows that he will stop at nothing to big note himself, as well as using our troops in a blatant attempt to deliberately smear the Prime Minister

    • Dash says:

      11:15am | 13/10/10

      Christian, h Gillard knew and the paperwork released yesterday proves it. The ADF has backed up Abbott’s claims. The ALP fabricated an issue, went public to the media and have been caught red handed. The paperwork was made available yesterday for all to see what a low act this was. Gillard has already started running from this because she knows how low she and the party has fallen. She wont comment today except to tell some more lies about being ignorant of the facts!

      Tell me why she would send an “invite” to Abbott after she knew he’d organised the trip, if it wasn’t to fabricate this issue. This whole thing smells very bad for the ALP.

      The ALP’s last three years has been full of deceipt, lies and photo opportunities. No one (except you it seems) believes anything the ALP says any more. Never before has a government promised so much and delivered so little. This is yet another example of the low depths the ALP will stoop for political gain.

    • TimB says:

      11:26am | 13/10/10

      To the Punch Mods:

      We all accept that you have a right to moderate the comments. I generally try to keep my posts relatively civil & on topic, although I admit that on occasion I am sometimes caught up in the debate a little too much, and my comments sometimes end up being rejected. For the most part I can accept that, and cop it sweet.

      However when vicious, slanderous comments like the direct accusation of racism from Rob R Charteris are published, I must question your judgement. How is this kind of post allowed through?

      Nothing in my post Rob that was responding to was in anyway racist. Nothing I have *ever* posted has been motivated by racism. This is a nothing more than a baseless & grubby attack from a small minded individual.

      I am not asking you to delete the comment at this point I want it left there so my fellow Punchers can see Rob R Charteris for the despicable excuse of a person he truly is.  But I hope that in future you at least try to be more consistent with which posts you moderate & why.

    • Mace says:

      12:00pm | 13/10/10

      Why so some people keep repeating ad nauseum that “we need a new election”. Maybe they personally didn’t like the resuIt.  I quite like the idea of the hung parliament to see what might be possible. What I do know is that I do not like either party to control both houses of parliament. When that happens is that power goes to thier heads and they do unhelpful things, even to their own cost eg. the Howard Government and Workchoices.

    • Christian Real says:

      01:38pm | 13/10/10

      Dash
      Where online did you find that information,what paperwork?, or was it on the Liberal party website.
      I read all the major newspapers online, and I don’t think that I would have missed this “paperwork ” that you claim backs ups Tony Abbott’s story.
      Phillip Coorey, who first broke the story of the Prime Minister’s offer to Tony Abbott, has said, and Quote:
      “That the disclosure did not come from the Prime Minister or her office”
      “I did not learn about it from the Government,The Sydney Morning Herald’s Phillip Coorey said yesterday,implying that Mr Abbott was making a serious charge against Ms gillard based on a misunderstanding.”  end of Quote!

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      06:37pm | 13/10/10

      Christian :  I suggest you check again .  The A.D.F. has confirmed everything that Tony Abbott has stated .  Gillard has been caught lying to the public again. Whover is doing your comments for you has really slipped up this time. You need to put far more care into just who you accept help from Christian.

    • Christian Real says:

      05:19am | 14/10/10

      Wayne Fehlhaber
      I had asked Dash where he got his information from, but since you replied for him, I have to ask, I are you and dash are the same person.?

    • Christian Real says:

      07:24am | 14/10/10

      Tim B
      Using the word ‘Black’ can now be seen as racist,and even though you seem to have used an age old saying, about the pot and kettle, political correction now effectively could see the word ‘black’ as racist ’

    • Dash says:

      07:50am | 14/10/10

      Christian, no I’ve never met Wayne. Seems we just agree on this matter. The letter confirming the date of approval was released to the media two days ago and confirmed by the ADF. It is dated before the “offer” was made by Gillard. As Wayne says, Gillard and the ALP has been caught lying again. And as you know from some of my previous posts, if not most, there is a very long line of lies and broken promises from the ALP stretching back to the 07 election.

      Gillard knew Abbott had made these arrangements and was due to honor committments in the UK. You have to ask, if not for political point scoring, why did she make the offer to him and then create an issue in the media. Many now agree with Abbott that it was a low act on the part of the PM and the ALP. And their silence on the matter over the last two days is deafening in what it tells us.

    • TimB says:

      05:32pm | 14/10/10

      No Christian, stupidity woulsd see my comment as racist. The word black is a simple colour and can be used in many contexts.
      I will not strike it from my vocabulary due to overreactions from the simple-minded or vicious sliming attempts by the likes of Rob R.

    • watty says:

      06:40am | 13/10/10

      Obviously Gillard’s security guard wasn’t paying attention when DOD reported Abbott was going to visit Afghanistan in October.

      Our troops deserve better than a Prime Minister telling porkies about the Opposition Leader"s support for opur troops.

      Reply

    • hdr says:

      07:08am | 13/10/10

      watty, I believe that pollies should stay in pollieville and leave our troops alone, (bugger the photo ops). oh hang on, why not bring them all home?

    • T.Chong says:

      07:39am | 13/10/10

      Watty the reason Abbotts visit became such a big issue was because JeyLaggs thought up the most piss weak excuse, when in reality he simply did not want to share the stage with Gillard.
      His choice of words, his choice to state the Tory convention was more important.
      His choice, not Gillards.

    • iansand says:

      08:31am | 13/10/10

      Or we could send all our pollies to Afghanistan.

    • TimB says:

      09:02am | 13/10/10

      T Chong, show me where he stated the Tory convention was more important.

      And meanwhile, explain to me why Gillard invited him to Afghanistan at a time when she knew he already had plans to travel to England, and when she already knew he was going to Afghanistan later.

      She deliberatley set him up.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      09:41am | 13/10/10

      T Chong :  the choice of words means nothing : the over riding issue was security. Gillard was well aware that Abbott was going to Afghanistan , and the A.D.F. confirmed that fact.  Gillard has made herself look like a petty , petulant 12 year old .

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      10:26am | 13/10/10

      The overriding issue here is rAbblurt gaffed and now he’s blaming it on Julia for him own inability to man up. The only one trying to gain political points here is rAbblurt, the problem for him is a lot of his Liberal colleagues are starting to cringe he is denigrating the troops and the office of Prime Minister. But you, tiny tim, watties baked beans are too blinded to see it. Like before the election and now post-election rAbblurt is the Labor government’s best asset. It is plain for all to see why the Independents chose not to go with him. He just isn’t PM material, never will be.

    • Mike T says:

      10:44am | 13/10/10

      T chong…


      You mentioned that TA declined JG’s invitation becasue he did not want to share the stage with her/ How is this possibly his motivation when he already had planned the trip and the timings following the European trip? please explain
      How is it possible that he declined JG’s invitation when he had alreday planned to go?? how is it possible that his motivation was that he did not want to share the stage with her when his trip was already planned

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      10:55am | 13/10/10

      The A.D.F. has confirmed everything Abbott has stated. Even a racalcitrant media is now telling the truth of the matter. Playing politics with security is not a Prime Ministerial function but it suits Gillard very well indeed . About as low as politics can get , except for knifing former Prime Ministers in the back.

    • Dash says:

      11:00am | 13/10/10

      Gillard knew that Abbott’s trip was planned and approved and she also knew he had a trip planned to the UK. She armed with that knowledge, “invited” him to join her knowing for well he was already committed to Afganistan and the UK. She then went public in a political points scoring exercise. And then when the truth came out, she told lies yesterday about her knowledge of what had happened. The truth of the matter is that Gillard tried to manufacture an issue for her own political gain. And once again she lied, just as she’s lied to the Australian people countless times before. Abbott has gone on the attack because the facts don’t make Gillard look very good at all!

      Btw, two of the independents chose to go with Gillard because of the $11b bribe she paid them using taxpayers money Rob.

      And perhaps you should take some of your own advice and grow up with the name calling. This is not the primary school yard!

    • Nicole says:

      11:12am | 13/10/10

      Jeez you lefties a thick. I shall repeat for about the 84th time. Abbott had already planned his trip. Gillard knew this and then decided that she’d get in first. Then she decided to invite Abbott, knowing full well that he would decline, due to already having planned trip. This was a set up and you just refuse to accept the fact she is an outright liar. Now it’s coming to bite her on the ass.

    • The Badger says:

      12:11pm | 13/10/10

      Nicole
      you are such a diehard conservative.

      How do we know Tony planned the trip?
      because he said so?
      You know we can’t believe what he says
      he told us so

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:14pm | 13/10/10

      Well played Joolia.

      Not only did she ‘set him up’ she also made the rAbbott say he was ‘too tired’ to visit the troops!

      As the well known proponent of ‘Political Bastardy’ I’d take the rAbbotts expertise on the subject as gospel.

      So kudo’s Jules, again, well played! You out ‘bastard’ the bastard wink

      I love the smell of Liberal tears in the morning, it smells…like Victory wink

      *que Wagner

    • Sven Gali says:

      02:00pm | 13/10/10

      Exactly, TheRealDave. We’ll have to add ventriloquist to the Prime Minister’s list of skills. Come to think of it, Abbott does look a bit like Gerry Gee. He’s certainly as wooden.

    • Davo says:

      03:38pm | 13/10/10

      ” We’ll have to add ventriloquist to the Prime Minister’s list of skills.”
      Gold!

    • Farkurnell says:

      06:20pm | 13/10/10

      now now boys and girls settle down This quagmire called Afganistan has claimed a few pollie casulties lately ,we don’t want any bloggers as well.
      @iansand..what a good Idea ,a bit of role reversal I’‘m sure Action man and his attack poodle in tandem with Joolz and the Ruddster would bore the Taliband into submission, You can also add Radio Shock Jocks to the list.they would be pretty fresh troops having only suffered bruised egos in there quest for truth and justice. Incidently I haven’t seen General Parrot on the batlefield lately.He seems to be an Afghan military discipline expert with plenty of frontline experience in the ratings war ,

    • Sven Gali says:

      02:25am | 14/10/10

      The choice of words means nothing, Wayne ?

      “It was a very poor choice of words and I apologise…” Tony Abbott

    • JIM says:

      07:59am | 13/10/10

      Tory, you got it right when you said they ned to “start focusing on the real issues”.  Theproblem appears to be that they dont know how. 

      Government, at all levels has become so focussed on media management and employing the right people (ie ones that understand the need for medi outcomes).  I have been consulting to government for over 10 years and the quality of public official has continued to spiral down due to the incompetance of elected officials.  There are some great ideas in industry on how to solve many of the issues facing Australia that just dont get a run because noone in government gives a damn about good policy any more.

      Reply

    • Jay says:

      08:17am | 13/10/10

      “Gillard couldn’t help her self”. Our 3 women leaders, Qld, NSW and Canberra use the same bitchy ,bully ,sarcastic behaviour in attacking the person. No leadership or stateswoman qualities here,  Gillard still acts like a teenager. Watching her behaviour and body language in most situations, I think she is an embarrassment.

      Reply

    • Reader says:

      12:39pm | 13/10/10

      Jay - You forgot our GG is a woman too, not mentioning Her Majesty the Queen. You may better investigate the gender of our Almighty God if you are a believer. You sound like you’re a sexist. C’mon, do you still think that this is the men’s world? We share it with women. You’ve filled your sentences with empty words, so I see no substance it what you trying to say. Get over it and stop behaving like you name was Richard Cranium. Read the title of this blog. It is supposed to be a mature debate. I think you are an embarasment my friend.

    • Jay says:

      06:19pm | 13/10/10

      Reader,  I read the content of the article not just the title.  I am a female and not at all sexist.  If the Prime Minister had the same decorum as the Queen and Quintin Bryce, we wouldn’t be having this discussion about the stouch between Abbott and Gillard.

    • farkurnell says:

      06:58pm | 13/10/10

      jay ...you may need to see your therapist,  you may have a mother complex. or are you just a women hater.

    • Holly says:

      08:30am | 13/10/10

      Watty - I will just point out that at no time did Julia Gillard tell “porkies” about Tony Abbott’s support for our troops.  She has made no statement about his support for our troops. In response to the press when Tony Abbott’s comment re jet lag was was quoted to her, she responded that she would let Mr Abbott work out his own sleeping arrangements.  The matter should then have been dropped.  But no - between them the media,  Tony Abbott and Christopher Pyne have force fed us with rubbish.  When Julia Gillard refused to comment further, Tony Abbott just upped the ante and then Christopher Pyne had to have his say.  Neither of them let the facts of the matter or sequence of events,  get in the way of their outrageous comments and inappropriate slurs.

      Tony Abbott’s latest populist attempt to muscle in with comments regarding the soldiers up on charges is entirely scurrilous.  He well knows that this case is to be heard in a military court and it is totally inappropriate for him to comment in the way he has. Quite frankly I think he deserves to have some sort of censure motion brought against him next week in parliament - if that is possible against a leader of the opposition.

      I would also like to see the press quiz Mr Abbott to determine just what he gained for our country’s benefit by attending the British Conservative Party conference at taxpayer expense.  So far I have heard nothing but that he asked the press to leave his interview with David Cameron.  Can we please be enlightened.

      Reply

    • hdr says:

      09:15am | 13/10/10

      thank you Holly, it’s nice to know that someone out there can speak the truth. do not let that skill go. I think I love you

    • Mike says:

      09:27am | 13/10/10

      Your right Holly, Gillard is one tricky decieving operater 10/10 for trickery and deception for Gillard..

    • yofussn says:

      08:30am | 13/10/10

      Might we hope one day the powers to be of the world wake up & clearly see that as long as war is justified wars there will always be.  would it not be a great country that exchanges its defence forces to peace & reconstruction teams,  then maybe the people themselves will come to decide that blowing ones self up with the intention of killing & maiming as many innocent people as possible will have no place to take hold & if the truth be known eventually the will of the people will prevail,  but dont tell the chinese that as we well know the rulers of china are none to afraid to use their tanks & millitary forces against their own all in the best interests of the ruling classes on behalf of that countries general populaces well being & best interests of course.  worry not China you are not alone as half the world seeems hell bent on achieving their own ends mainly by force if not open unadulterated bloodshed (war)  great harmonious world we live in is it not.

      Reply

    • fairsfair says:

      08:32am | 13/10/10

      I actually think the Government’s handling of the three charged soldiers is important. I am glad Tony Abbott has brought it up. Irrespective of his intentions I am a little bit miffed that you can lump this in with leaks and the “bastardry” - it is a whole other beast - that correct me if I am wrong - is the actual STORY here.

      Why don’t the media have the nuts to write an article about that over again discussing the jet lag and the name calling? You say that Tony Abbott is drawing out the fight beyond its use by date - yet all of us talking about it is doing the exact same thing.

      Reply

    • The Badger says:

      09:33am | 13/10/10

      “yet all of us talking about it is doing the exact same thing. “

      Yes but we are very small voices. Especially yours.

    • fairsfair says:

      10:14am | 13/10/10

      Badger, I do have an especially small voice - because I am a nobody. I don’t think anything I actually say is taken seriously by anyone. Lucky I am in touch with reality - because I would be mighty upset if I thought otherwise.

      Ulike your great self, I am not an expert on anything and don’t see the point in communicating with quotes and links and roped learned information out of some journal I read three years ago. That would seek only to demonstrate I am a partronising know-it-all, over an above plain nobody that I am currently achieving just fine.

      My father always says, “he who knows a little about a lot is the greatest fool”. How true.

    • Porkchop says:

      08:59am | 13/10/10

      I don’t support the troops. Afganistan, like Iraq before it, has nothing to do with our national, financial or moral interests. In general our military - in fact our entire defence structure - is an appalling and vain waste of money.
      At best, I might support a small emergency services corps for internal work like rescue and clean-up, and maybe a very small and mobile corps to contribute short-term for peace keeping, but our current numbers of some 30,00 permanent troops does nothing but support jingoistic politics by idiot politicians. We send young men to an impossible situation and when they are killed, we fete their deaths with goulish fanfare an phoney remorse. It’s an out-dated, out-moded approach to realpolitic and i don’t support it one bit.

      Reply

    • The Badger says:

      09:37am | 13/10/10

      At least you have the guts to come out and admit you are an unpatriotic bastard that blames the troops for following orders and being in the situation the government ordered them to!

      or perhaps you don’t understand what “support the troops” actually means?

    • Chaos says:

      11:24am | 13/10/10

      What is so unpatriotic about not wanting to follow the blind leaders of the USA into a country that never asked for us to to be there, into a war that has resulted in nothing but increase the global tension between the middle east and the rest of the world?
      Oh and did I mention help line the pockets of the military companies across the globe?
      I don’t remember the Afghan people attacking Australia… do you?

    • The Badger says:

      12:26pm | 13/10/10

      and here’s another one who doesn’t understand what “support the troops” means.

    • Tom says:

      05:17pm | 13/10/10

      @ Badger your posts are dead set stupid.

    • Leto says:

      11:53am | 14/10/10

      I agree. These men and women aren’t fighting for me. We are there as part of our obligations under the ANZUS treaty, so excuse me when I don’t applaud our invasion of another country to fulfil a treaty.

      September 11 ‘Terrorists’ by nationality;

      15 Saudi Arabia
      2 United Arab Emirates
      1 Egypt
      1 Lebanon

      Oh what, Afghanistan isn’t on the list? But lets invade and kill people anyway.

      3000 people died in the world trade center. In Afghanistan, 30,000 civilians and over 5000 US troops are already dead. What a stupid waste.

      Badger… don’t even bother.

    • Bob H says:

      09:11am | 13/10/10

      From any perspective, making up stories to wriggle out of awkward questions is not a good look and Abbott deserves a punch from the polls (not that any take notice, of course).  JGillard played a good hand, but it does show that the government will be constantly distracted from making Australia a better place by efforts to win the next election (already).

      Reply

    • HappyCynic says:

      09:15am | 13/10/10

      Ha our troops may deserve a mature debate instead of a pissing contest, but the days of mature political debates ended decades ago.

      There isn’t a politician in parliament today who would even know the meaning of “mature debate” let alone be able to participate in one.

      Reply

    • Jaded says:

      09:16am | 13/10/10

      Both leaders are playing a cynical game which shows their immaturity and political/moral vacuousness.  Absolutely nothing is beyond their school yard tit for tat petty political bickering and one upmanship.  Not good enough from either of them.  Not only to our troops deserve better but we all do.

      Reply

    • Mike T says:

      10:53am | 13/10/10

      Agree with you 100% Jaded. For this to stop i think as a public we need to stop buying into these sort of point scoring headlines, unfortaunelty the plummet in TA numbers following this little tid bit tells me we are a long way of acheiving this.

      The second thing that needs to occur is that the Media need to take some responsibility and realise that headlines that sell cannot be the only motivation for what they publish. It will never not be a driver of what they run with, but a balanced view, needs to once again be the overriding factor

    • joe says:

      09:22am | 13/10/10

      So when is bob brown going to visit Afghanistan? He is the one who wants us to give up on Afghanistan immediately. But then again bob brown has a monopoly on uninformed and wacky “policies” like this. Why start being realistic and reasonable now?  (Remember that gillard brought on this debate to please brown)

      Reply

    • TheRealDave says:

      09:22am | 13/10/10

      How quickly we, and when I say we I mean Liberal supporters, forget that it was a Liberal government that allowed the farcicle situation where SAS troops fronted a Military Court for - kicking a dead corpse, I shit you not, in East Timor after a contact.

      Funny how many things the Libs ‘forget’.......

      As for the article, if you seriously think there is still not a large element of ADF attitudes in the general public then you need to read a lot more news sites comments and popular forums. I’d agree that on the Punch we don’t see much of it but it is still out there. I dare you to step your dainty toe into the Muslim Village forums and see what young Australian Muslims are saying on a daily basis.

      I also tire of the annoying trend of anonymous comments to news articles being treated as ‘news’ or become part of a report. Its just tacky and poor journalism in my opinion. Surely we have enough expert comment and facts on the subject already without having to delve into the opinion of SexMachine69 from Loveswing NSW??

      Reply

    • joe says:

      09:24am | 13/10/10

      So when is bob brown going to visit Afghanistan? He is the one who wants us to give up on Afghanistan immediately. But then again bob brown has a monopoly on uninformed and wacky “policies” like this. Why start being realistic and reasonable now?  (Remember that gillard brought on this debate to please brown)Your comment:

      Reply

    • jb says:

      09:25am | 13/10/10

      Anyone would think the coalition was running this country and not the Rudd/gillard govt with all this playing the man instead of running our country.
      looks like the task of leading is rather beyond ms gillard.

      Reply

    • Ture Sjolander says:

      09:31am | 13/10/10

      “pissing contest”:
      4 times a day. Approx 1 minute each time X 364 days = lifetime. That’s a big leak and a big lake.
      Our PM’s (Pair in shoes - Two of a kind) should go to Metro Goodwin Mayer and fine tune their skills in acting.
      The Australian news media journalists must be demented!!!
      The leaders have helmets and the audience use harness.

      Reply

    • ex defence force says:

      09:35am | 13/10/10

      Im just wondering if Mr Abbott has had all the necessary training to be allowed to fire live rounds from these weapons. I know that I had to have intensive training to fire live rounds from these weapons.

      Reply

    • Zeta says:

      10:06am | 13/10/10

      I was watching How I Met Your Mother last night, and the pretty one - not the one that was on Buffy, the other one, revealed she’d had a short lived musical career in Canada during the early 90s before meeting the other characters on the show. So they all gather around a lap top and watch her music video, but it looks like something out of the 80s, and the girl says that in Canada the 90s didn’t arrive in Canada until 1993. I guess you just had to be there.

      But that kind of sums up Australian politics. It’s like American politics doesn’t arrive in Australia for like, 4 years after it arrives in America. Somewhere out in the Pacific Ocean, time slows, and political strategies transmitted here take longer to arrive. They were Supporting the Troops in 2003. They were Hoping and Changing in 2007. Now we’re just catching up.

      It’s bit hard to see the call to support our troops as anything but hollow rhetoric if you look back over the ocean, and see this same political discourse played out years before hand.

      ‘Support the troops.’ 2003 called, they want their slogan back. America has moved on. They’ve lost thousands of the poor bastards. And now the catch phrase is a parody of its self. And we’re a parody of America.

      Reply

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:37am | 13/10/10

      Lets go to the mall Zeta, or we could build sandcastles in the sand.

    • Mike T says:

      10:39am | 13/10/10

      Thanks for the article Tory. My assessment of political point scoring and how it occurs is noted below

      1) Politicain of staffer pass onfo onto a journalist
      2) Journalist runs with the story
      3) Public sees the story
      4) Points scored as most Aussie’s are taken by the headline rather then reviewing the issue

      If my assessment of political point scoirng is true i must ask what responsibilty do the media play in fueling this?? surley you guys are a VERY important cog in the wheels of the spin cycle that is currently occuring.

      Take the recent leake around TA afgan travel. Does the journalist who recieved tht info from the ALP member not have some role to play? after all if she/he does not play ball then the point scoring cant occur…. why is it this journalist cant stand up and say i was told this by so and so… would this not put a massive dent in the ability of pollies to point scroe?

      Okay lets assume that your response is that the journalist that recieves the leak is entitled to protcet thier source. If thats the case do they at least not entitled to find out if it is actually correct?? and what from other journalist. Why can abother journalist not investigate these sort of leakes and point scoring plays??? what is stopping you from investegating and reporting these…..is in that difficult to investegate where the leaek came form, ie, the ALP leaks during the election…why not expose the person??

      Reply

    • Richard says:

      11:38am | 13/10/10

      So if you believe Tony Abbott then it was Julia Gillard who launched the smear campaign against Tony Abbott last week, but if you believe Julia Gillard it was the media who launched the smear campaign against Tony Abbott last week. My question is, why can’t both Gillard and the media grow up, stop having tantrums and start taking our National Interest seriously?

      So what, Tony said he didn’t go to Afghanistan at Gillard’s beck and call because he wanted to be fresh and alert for his meeting with the 2nd most important Foreign Head of State to Australia’s National Interest…

      That’s not a ridiculous excuse Tory! That is the rationale of a mature leader who puts the Australian National Interest above petty political cheap shots and photo ops.

      But (elements of) the media tried (and are still trying from the looks of this OP) to take this reasonable position of his as an opportunity to mock and harangue Abbott and manufacture ridicule.

      Why isn’t anyone else disturbed that highest priority on the Gillard government’s agenda is to try and tear down the reputation of the Opposition leader and play petty tit-for-tat games? And why isn’t anyone disturbed that large parts of the media seem to be only too willing to be the government’s accomplice?

      Its so ironic for Gillard to accuse Abbott of being a wrecker when she is the one without anything positive to say, she is the one trying to wreck Abbott’s good-standing and she is the one without a decisive vision of where to lead her government for the remainder of this term.

      Reply

    • Betelnut says:

      01:07pm | 13/10/10

      Let’s not get too carried away there, that meeting with the “2nd most important Foreign Head of State to Australia’s National Interest”...... went for 15 minutes.

    • Richard says:

      01:36pm | 13/10/10

      Yes that’s right Betelnut, it does sounds ridiculous when I blow the whole issue up out of proportion in a way that is favourable to Mr Abbott.

      So why didn’t it sound equally ridiculous when the media blew the whole issue up out of proportion in a way that was unfavourable to Mr Abbott?

      The answer is of course that Abbott is well-hated by many immature people, who are just itching believe any negative aspersions cast against him, a process which Gillard gleefully eggs on I’m sure.

      But this whole scandal illustrates just how out of hand the situation has become. Abbott is the unchanllenged leader of the party that exactly half of all voters want to see in government, so its high time the press (and Gillard) put away their juvenile sensationalism and started treating him with the respect he’s earned.

    • Betelnut says:

      02:29pm | 13/10/10

      I agree Richard, the whole “jetlag” episode is deserving of ridicule, especially Gillard, Abbott and the media.  At the end of the day, Australia was the loser last week courtesy of the childish antics of all involved.

      That said, the attack on the separation of powers regarding the upcoming court martial by Abbott and his defence minister are absolutely and unequivocally stupid and show a complete lack of understanding and respect towards the institutions that make the Australian liberal democracy great.  Combined with his intemperate comments about JG, I think Tony will continue to struggle to be given any respect until he proves himself worthy of respect via his behaviour.

    • Democrat says:

      11:58am | 13/10/10

      Liberals have politicised every military contest Australia has been involved with from Korea to Vietnam, to Iraq and now Afghanistan.  In the earlier wars it was to attack Labor as being soft on communism, latterly that they were soft on terrorism.  The politicisation won them elections but involved us in immoral wars.  Now Abbott leads the charge again with support from the likes of Tory (by name and by nature it would seem).  Abbott got himself into trouble with his own ‘jet lag’ language.  Nobody made him say it.  His intemperate language is an embarrassment .  But as usual the conservatives are being allowed to cover up their exposed lies over the so-called auditing process of the black hole figures during the election by turning to matters military.  The past masters of ‘bastardisation’ of the political and military process are the conservatives for whom attention to such matters are a means to an end not a national interest.

      Reply

    • Richard says:

      12:37pm | 13/10/10

      “Abbott got himself into trouble with his own ‘jet lag’ language.  Nobody made him say it.  His intemperate language is an embarrassment”

      What Planet are You From Dude? Haven’t you Ever caught a plane before? Good Heavens, if you were going to meet the 2nd Most Powerful Man in the Western World, wouldn’t you want to be fresh and alert?

      I simply cannot believe that Anybody would try to paint Tony Abbott’s off-hand comment about jet-lag as a faux pas. Just goes to show the length desperate lefties will go to discredit someone they’re genuinely afraid of.

    • Mace says:

      12:49pm | 13/10/10

      While I agree with Democrat’s comments, it is unfortunate fact that the only way we can judge whether a war was “just” or “moral” is through the prism of hindsight. As someone who believed at the time in the “domino theory”, “monolithic communism” and the need for the war and whose number went into the Vietnam “lottery”, I now give thanks that my birthdate did not come out. We all now understand that while the war may or may not have been justified (depending on your view), it turned out to be futile and wasteful of the lives of the soldiers and Vietnamese! As a final point, it seems nearly impossible to deal with a local insurgency and geurilla tactics using conventional military forces. I will not even attempt to comment on the Afghani government and the war lords. Roll on the exit strategy ...

    • Sven Gali says:

      02:32am | 14/10/10

      “I simply cannot believe that Anybody would try to paint Tony Abbott’s off-hand comment about jet-lag as a faux pas. Just goes to show the length desperate lefties will go to…”  Richard

      “It was a very poor choice of words and I apologise…”  Tony Abbott

      So Tony Abbott’s a “desperate leftie” now, Richard ?

    • nosthow says:

      12:18pm | 13/10/10

      Whilst i agree with the main gist of your excellent article Tors it must be remembered it was Tony Abbott who slipped the matter into the gutter by declaring “I didnt want to be jetlagged when I met the British PM” as his excuse for not calling in to see the troops in Afghanistan. Now of course in true Liberal fashion he is blaming Julia Gillard. Ya gotta love him ! Thank goodness he wont be around the political scene this time next year taken out by his ever decreasing poll figures - Gillard holds a whopping 21 point lead over him as preferred PM and Tonys Satisfaction rating has plumetted 9 points to a low 39%. How low can the “limbo” kid go - we will all see very soon. Hullo Mr Turnbull !

      Reply

    • Andrew says:

      12:29pm | 13/10/10

      I’ve wondered lately if the media agenda is to try and destabilise the Lib Leadership so they can start their usual Leadership challenger alert, just like you nosthow. The attacks on Abbott from the media have been relentless, and usually about nothing of importance.

    • Dash says:

      01:18pm | 13/10/10

      Notso nosthow! If you take a good hard look at the facts of this nonsense, you will realise that the ALP and Gillard clearly fabricated an issue in true ALP gutter fashion. Abbott had planned and had approved, a visit to Afganistan before Gillard. She knew that and asked him suddenly to join her in order to fabricate a story in the knowledge that he had other committments. Now that the real timing of events has come out, she and the ALP look like the dirty rats they are! They are running for cover and she’s playing the Sgt Shultz excuse. “I know nothing, nothing”.

      Lets see how the ratings look after the public realise that Gillard mislead them again and is a compulsive liar!

      You also seem to forget that it’s the faceless men of the Labor party who get the knives out on the basis of ratings! “I fully support PM Rudd” “oops, this knife appears to have slipped right into his back, there goes my football carreer”

      Don’t look now but Abbott’s satisfaction rating is higher than the ALPs primary vote (ha ha ha).

    • nosthow says:

      06:49pm | 13/10/10

      @Dash - are you related to the “Oistrich” family fella - you know - head in the sand !

    • nosthow says:

      08:51pm | 13/10/10

      @Andrew - Andrew, Andrew how could you think such a thing about your good friend nosthow ! I am deeply wounded fella.

    • stiffy says:

      12:27pm | 13/10/10

      Why did the PM offer the opposition leader a ride with her to see and speak with our troops? The offer does raise questions of motivation. Was it as innocent as ‘Oh, im going that way do you want a lift?’ to me it seemed to be a planned political move. Which appears to have worked if the leadership polls are correct. The political advisor who thought up the jet lag excuse should have got it themself on a 1 way ticket back to Canberra.

      The truth would have been a far simpler answer. Firstly, a logical response would have been ‘I am not going to openly discuss my plans on visiting Afganistan due to security reasons’. or the political reality that he did not want to be seen together with the PM there.
      Doesn’t the opposition leader have the right to visit our troops seperately to the PM. This would allow the people who speak with him the ability to express their thoughts openly to him no matter what level of rank or public office. Australians would not want to see the two of them visiting together would they? I agree with some of the calls above for Bob Brown to visit there also but he maybe he’s on his way there right now.

      Reply

    • taiabada says:

      02:03pm | 13/10/10

      Stiffy, the PM wanted him to be travelling with her as “second fiddle”.  She wanted him to look like her lapdog and to diminish him by doing this.  He was absolutely right to decline the offer.  P.S. Stiffy, do you have Moe!

    • Richard says:

      12:47pm | 13/10/10

      “...it was Tony Abbott who slipped the matter into the gutter by declaring “I didnt want to be jetlagged when I met the British PM” as his excuse for not calling in to see the troops in Afghanistan.”

      “Slipped the matter into the gutter”?

      He “slipped the matter into the gutter” by articulating his reasonable desire to meet the Prime Minister of Australia’s 2nd most important ally in a fully rested frame of mind?

      At what point are you willing to stop swallowing the media hysteria and start thinking for yourself Nosthow?

      And don’t hold your breath waiting for Malcolm Turnbull to challenge Tony Abbott anytime soon, seeing as the its Labor voters that are calling for his ascension the loudest. Pretty much, anything Labor thinks the coalition should do, its probably wise for the coalition to do the exact opposite.

      Reply

    • Sven Gali says:

      02:37am | 14/10/10

      I’m certainly not, Richard. As shown by the huge difference between the popularity of the parties compared to the popularity of their leaders, keeping Tony Abbott as Leader of the Opposition is just what Labor wants.

    • ochrebunyip says:

      02:20pm | 13/10/10

      Not only do we have to demand our pollies stay focused on the real issues, we also need to demand a responsible media. Gillard and Abbott’s spat over visiting the troops has nothing to do with the success of our troops’ mission in Afghanistan, doesn’t address whether they should be reinforced or withdrawn entirely, doesn’t debate the actual measurable targets for success of operations or consider the issue of adequate equipment. Instead, we get half-baked sound bites so the various media can draw out an essentially non-story for a few days to pad out an otherwise unremarkable week of news. In fact, the absence of decent news concerning what our government and opposition are doing is highlighted by the attention given to this charade. Move on with real government and real reporting, nothing to see here.

      Reply

    • Gerard says:

      05:59pm | 13/10/10

      Am I the only one that thought the picture of Abbott was Mini Me at first glance?

      Reply

    • Democrat says:

      06:07pm | 13/10/10

      @Richard
      That is exactly the point.  Abbott made an ‘offhand comment’.  He didn’t think and that is why he is not to be feared by his opponents - either inside or outside the Liberal Party.  His capacity to self destruct is enormous.  By his own admission his word (another off hand comment I guess on 7.30 Report) is not to be believed unless he has given it in writing.  However, we now know that not even that can be believed after his change of mind (another off hand comment perhaps) on the pairing of the Speaker after signing an agreement to that effect.
      By the way the British PM the 2nd most important?  You might need to rethink that one.  This is the 21st Century Richard- not the 19th.  At the moment I would give that title to the Vice President of the US , or perhaps Putin or even the leader of China.
      Also nice to see how well that ‘2nd most important person’ knew Abbott since he even had to ask him how long he head been leader.

      Reply

    • Ex Digger says:

      12:43am | 14/10/10

      Labour as an entity doesnt believe in having a land based army capable of attack, only one of defense.
      They only believe in sea & air defense as a deterrent to others.
      The defence white paper 1984 proved this, the budget for the army was cut so far back that there were guys filling trucks on the side of the Bruce Highway with pretend diesel from pretend diesel tankers, guys on field exercises yelling bang, bang cos there wasnt any money for blanks to be used yet the air force & navy recieved all of the dough for ageing fighter bomber upgrades or building submarines that didnt work so well, at least the AMWU was happy.
      Mark my words, the budget cuts will come from the army and they will come from the equipment issued to the boys in Afghanistan in turn.

      Reply

    • Christian Real says:

      07:37am | 14/10/10

      Some media described Tony Abbott as “Action Man Abbott, but it seems that he should not have been allowed to fire off live rounds of ammunition because he is not a trained soldier, nor is is part of the trained Defence Force.
      Also,what is Tony Abbott’s qualifications in the use of guns,especially sophisticated weaponry, and what if he had accidently shot someone while doing this publicity stunt.

      Reply

    • Sven Gali says:

      09:23am | 14/10/10

      Relax, Christian. History has repeatedly shown that if Tony Abbott is going to accidentally shoot anything, it’ll be his own foot.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      07:00pm | 14/10/10

      Why don’t you all just lay off Abbott? By being in Afghanistan he was serving his country where he was most needed.

      Reply

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      01:35am | 16/10/10

      God, many people go on about nothing. So what if Julia authorized Tonys trip and knew something or other obviously to get at him in some way, blah, blah, blahhhhhhhh.

      Tony Abbott is running around the place playing as if he is the Prime Minister of Australia. No Tony, guess what!, You didn’t win.

      I don’t really care who runs the place or who goes to see the troops in Afgaspistan or anywhere else. It’s not even newsworthy. Why the punch has to regurgitate these things all the time has me wondering if there is any other thing happening of more importance in this country.

      The last time i looked i noticed that Ms Gillard was the elected Prime Minister of Australia whether the Election worked out to be a hung parliament or not. The independents made their choices on who to support after quite a long deliberation.

      But just think. If we were not wasting our armies time and public money trying to free people from something that they cannot ever be freed of, and people who probably wonder who all the strange people wandering around everywhere like aliens are ,well maybe we could help people in Australia who have no homes to go to tonight and are battling there backsides off trying to keep their heads above water all the time.

      Yes everybody, even tho we want the world to see how really great we really are, and throwing away our money on useless unwinnable wars everywhere, we should realize that charity begins at home. Yes, Aussies are good people on the whole but we can’t continue to waste public money on unwinnable wars. Now the Army chief says that we can win the war in Afghanistan but i would like him to tell us something about how we are going to defeat the undefeatable..

      How can we ultimately win anything when we sit down and think about the human cost of warfare, in particular the cost to innocent civilians, lives and livelyhoods lost. And any death of a afghani family member is a tragedy for them as well as it would be for us here.

      Our soldiers are career men and women. They are a fighting army and are trained to kill and paid well for it. This may seem a bit callous and unpatriotic from me but it is true. It is their job. The Australian army are glorified by us too much i feel because we now know that they would shoot us down dead if the government ordered them too. Yes if civil disobedience happened here then they have a law that howard put through to allow that to happen, and this law had never been there before in the history of the country. We could end up like Afghanistan ourselves and have to have our own civil war.

      Just to finish all I have to say is that no one wins in war. It’s a waste of Money. Let Afghanistan sort itself out. The Taliban are Afghanis aren’t they. Where else are they going to live. Why can’t we just let people live their lives. I can’t understand why the Taliban want their own peoples to live their lives in misery. Now Saudi Arabia is a Sharia governed country as well and you can be stoned decapitated crucified and have your limbs chopped off as well there. Just as bad as the taliban but we don’t try to change them and make democracy there do we.? Why is that I wonder!. Chinese Government, human rights violators thugs and murderers of their ethnic peoples, we do nothing about them as well, interesting!.

      If the Taliban win there and form a government of Jihadis I wonder what their national anthem would comprise of. It certainly wouldn’t be one based on hope and freedom now would it. What a miserable lot they are!. Let’s get out of there asap otherwise we’ll still be there in another 10 years time saying we can win. No one ever wins.

      Reply
 
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