The Australian public are being fed a one dimensional view of Afghanistan by both sides of politics that is misleading and will only result in further domestic political frustration and a public continuing to question why our troops are not winning the war. 

And who's your commanding officer young man? Picture: AP

Our mission in Afghanistan will not be successful through military engagement alone.  The Prime Minister must publicly acknowledge that our mission in Afghanistan will only succeed through the implementation of a range of mainly direct civilian engagements outside the safety of our Forward Operating Bases and a long way from the good coffee in the safe compounds in Kabul.

War is armed politics and counterinsurgency is an armed variant of domestic politics in which numerous challengers compete for control over the population.

Everyone sees Afghanistan differently, depending on your experience or how close or far you are from the “real action”. 

The advice being given to many in the media and government comes from those who have either never been to Afghanistan or travelled in armoured vehicles and helicopters FOB hopping.

This means they are unable to comprehend an environment that is highly complex, ambiguous and fluid.  It is extremely hard to know what is happening – trying too hard to find out can get you killed…and so can not knowing. 

But you absolutely must understand the and influence the human terrain or we will crawl home with our tail between our legs like every other nation that has attempted to tame this tribal Byzantine society. Afghanistan is not known as the graveyard of empires for nothing.

Afghan people are not mobilised individually or by cold consideration of rational facts.  At the same time the simplicity of life is a camouflage for their ability to prevail against asymmetrical threats. 

This means the more our political leaders just focus on troops and the military aspect the more Australian’s will be baffled as to why this poor, illiterate, un-educated men in sandals can defeat a Coalition made up of the most powerful nations in the world.

The complexity of the issues in Afghanistan means that a multi-dimensional approach is required and in most parts of Afghanistan this has only really been tried since around 2007. 

Don’t kid ourselves into thinking we have been seriously at war in Afghanistan since 2001.  Yes, there was an initial brief period after the 2001 invasion but once the Taliban was defeated the US strategy was one of funding the warlords not on winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan people so they don’t support imported terrorist organisations like Al Qaeda.

The Karzai government is being out-governed by the local Taliban at almost every level – security, law & order and reconstruction. 

The unelected, Presidential appointed Governors in each Province are at best corrupt and at worse have direct links to the Taliban.  The former Governor in Ghazni had a bounty on my head. 

It was also well known that the sub-governor in Deh Yak received half of all ransoms paid to local insurgents to release kidnapped local NGO staff.

The ANP are often police by day Taliban by night.

Try asking local village residents (not the Governor’s staff) whether they trust the ANP or the local Taliban to provide security?  Commander Ptang in the District of Andar was considered a “good guy” by the US PRT.

Yet the local Afghan’s were petrified of him and he was assassinated in May this year.  But we are not there to create a reflection of our own society in Australia.  This is a nation with deep ethnic divisions and has been bombed back to the dark ages over the last 40 years.

There is no doubt that more troops will enable Australia to dig deeper into Uruzgon with more tactical confidence but we should be making a larger civilian contribution too.

Without quickly addressing the other failing parts of the strategy Afghan villages will continue to be passively and actively support the local Taliban.

Given my own multiple near death experiences, I guarantee that the majority of Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) that have killed Australian troops were NOT set off by the Taliban but by disgruntled, abused and disenfranchised local young men who made a decision out of money or survival.

It doesn’t mean the locals want the Taliban to become the Government – it just means they have not been given any reason to believe their survival can be guaranteed by anyone else.

There are many reasons the conflict in Afghanistan has not gone well.  Most come down to failure to deal with corruption, criminal violence, government thugs and warlord intimidation as well as a local population that has been promised many development goodies by poorly focused NGOs and military with short tours and strict rules of engagement.

The Australian public are continually misled by our political leaders in how they describe the Taliban.  They are not a homogenous group of insurgents.  There are the Pakistan-funded and armed radicalised jihadists who flood over the border to fight foreign infidels.

There are the local Taliban who can be negotiated with and only care about their local area or district.

Then there are the criminals and thieves who take advantage of the mayhem conducting kiddappings, illegal checkpoints and highway robbery.

One of my vehicles was riddled with machine gun bullets, a worker shot in the arm and $US30,000 stolen – not by the Taliban but by local thugs.

When we asked they Afghan National Police to provide us with security the Commander in Logar Province said “it was too dangerous.”  But if I paid him a large sum of money it wouldn’t be so dangerous for us to travel in his area.

From working with Coalition forces in Afghanistan many US troops I worked with observed how Afghanistan had become a politically correct war.

Ralph Peters hit the nail on the head in his 2006 New York Post article when he observed it is hard enough to bear the timidity of our civilian leaders - anxious to start wars but without the guts to finish them - but now military leaders have fallen prey to political correctness.

Unwilling to accept that war is, by its nature, a savage act and that defeat is immoral, influential officers are arguing for a kinder, gentler approach to our enemies.

Much of this is not due to the military commanders but an omnipresent media and well meaning civilian advisors with a Western democratic mind-set.  In 1901, Winston Churchill said, “the wars of peoples will be more terrible than the wars of kings.”

While Churchill was not concerned with counterinsurgency he foresaw the challenges of implementing war in a democratic age, waged among a civilian population under the spotlight of Western democratic sensitivities.

While entering a village in Waghez District, Ghazni in April this year we came under machine gun and rocket attack.  I saw two men on a motorbike fire an RPG before they sped off behind a building at a distance of about 200meters.

Coming out the other side they no longer had the RPG and because of the rules of engagement the gunner in the MRAP I was in could not fire on the motor bike and the two insurgents.

Most reasonable members of the general public reading this account, knowing this is war, would shake their head and ask “aren’t the Coalition Forces meant to shoot those people?”  If the insurgents had been shot the media reports would have said “two unarmed civilians were shot by US forces…”

Finally, we must also stop using the word win.  The Coalition forces may succeed and we may not like the look of that success.

Success will mean negotiating with the local Taliban, removing corrupt government officials, arresting warlords and drug barons and publically confronting Pakistan in multinational forums for its duplicitous approach to the foreign Taliban insurgency who flood over the border into Afghanistan.

None of this is neat and tidy and none of it will be done by our Australian soldiers alone.

Don’t miss: Get The Punch in your inbox every day

Get The Punch on Facebook

91 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Adam Diver says:

      07:11am | 11/10/10

      Whom would of suspected our on PC and apologists would make war difficult? Its not the fault of these people though, as we should of never went to war, we should just give everyone cuddles and they will all then adopt democratic principles.

      That was a really interesting and insightful piece. Thanks Jason.

    • James1 says:

      09:11am | 11/10/10

      The reason Afghanistan is going badly now is because we got distracted by the idiocy that was the war in Iraq.  If we had just stayed focused on our national interests, and not gotten distracted by whatever the hell motivated the Iraq war, we could have devoted the necessary resources to the war in Afghanistan.

      Also, it is “should have”, not “should of”.  I am becoming increasingly frustrated at the lack of basic English language skills in our society.

    • Tedd says:

      09:20am | 11/10/10

      I agree with James1 that Iraq was too much of a distraction, but another issue has been the failure to anticipate and deal with the uprise in militancy in north-west Pakistan - something that threatens Pakistan itself, and if it progresses, India.  The ripple effect of the stupidity of the so-called Western leaders is tsunami-like.

    • tomboweler says:

      12:42pm | 11/10/10

      Ah yes ‘Tedd’ the stupid evil axis of western leaders..

      Perhaps we should revert to the genius of fundamentalist religious idealogue leaders.. I suggest a hasty reversion to ‘death by stoning’ for women of loose morals and whatnont.. Wonder how the lefties would take a bit of ‘cultural relatvism’ on their own doorstep? hahaha

      No, we should prosecute the war in Afghanistan to it’s successful conclusion. Withdrawal and quarter in afghanistan would pay a clear and quantifiable dividend to islamist militants and validate their playbook of targeting the ‘weak’ (aid workers, missionaries and civilian contractors). If we can crush the taliban and the Iraqi insurgents without pity or quarter- responding to their tactics with increased, not lessened vigour, then we might provide a demonstration of the innate futility of such tactics against a modern army in the long term with the only visible results for these people (who do care about their country as much as we about ours) will be a protracted ordeal of the hell that is a military occupation and total warfare.

    • Tedd says:

      08:26am | 13/10/10

      “If we can crush the taliban and the Iraqi insurgents ” - “if”, “and” - Imentioned Iraq as the thing that stifled the effort in Afghanistan.

      There is now enough militancy to do a good job - for themselves - after the Allied forces leave, so the “futility of such tactics against a modern army” won’t be an issue.  A decade wasted.

    • Dennis Argall says:

      07:11am | 11/10/10

      Jason Thomas offers some useful insights into life for USAID workers in Afghanistan and a sensible basis for rejecting current national policy (would somebody in the media please flay Abbott for his picnic idiocy wanting to risk lives going on patrol).

      But all these thoughts are still about a form of winning. The plain fact is that in common with most people Afghans don’t like having their country invaded. We are parties to having made the situation worse than under the Russians. Sometimes you have to say you were wrong and get out. Tragically neither Labor nor Liberal has any notion of history. A Liberal Foreign Minister in 1971 said to officials “I will shift recognition of China from Taipei to Beijing straight away if you can show me how to do it while remaining consistent with past policy”. It’s not a new disease and it remains tragic. Just say sorry, Kevin, you know how to say Sorry don’t you?

    • acotrel says:

      08:01am | 12/10/10

      ‘If we can crush the taliban and the Iraqi insurgents without pity or quarter- responding to their tactics with increased, not lessened vigour, then we might provide a demonstration of the innate futility of such tactics against a modern army ‘

      Tombowler, I’m glad you used the word ‘might’!  What you are suggesting didn’t happen in Vietnam!

    • T.Chong says:

      07:20am | 11/10/10

      So all those opposing the military invasion and occupation arent just Talibaan ? Who woulda thought ?
      Maybe some of those fighting our military invasion see themselves as freedom fighters, the same as the French, or Dutch, or Yugoslav partisan of WW 2 wre also fighting a hated murderous military occupation.
      Maybe they are some of the same guys and gals who helped defeat the Russians, using American arms and know how. Funny how the west considered them freedom fighters in those days.
      So , I’ll ask again Punchers - if we were invaded by Indonesia, to save us from ourselves - just like we tell the Afghans, who here would take the hills and resist, or even stay put, but resist ? Everyone would fight, yes?
      So why expect the Afghans (Talibaan, or otherwise) be any different.?
      Quislings traitors are loathed by their countymen for very good reason.
      A good article that shows the complexities involved - a lot more complicated than the black and white world so favored by the pro war spruikers.

    • Leto says:

      11:24am | 11/10/10

      Well it appears that there is some confusion about how Taliban are identified. Follow my straightfoward rules, and

      1.    Anyone running; Taliban (Everyone knows that the Taliban are always in a rush to kill ISAF troops).

      2.    Anyone digging; Taliban (it could be for crops, or and IED. Are you willing to take the chance?)

      3.    Anyone wearing a Niqab or Burqa, better safe than sorry; Taliban (Why would you hide otherwise?)

      4.    Little People/ Children; Taliban (everyone knows that explosives stunt your growth).

      5.    There are no limestone caves in Afghanistan. There are only Taliban caves. Taliban caves should be destroyed. With extreme prejudice.

      6.    Anyone taking photographs; Taliban (Telephoto lenses are close enough to a RPG, you won’t get any pesky charges brought against you).

      Oh… maybe I should have written how to identify someone who is not Taliban. Anyone have any ideas about what those guys look like?

      Why is it so hard to figure out what to do with this place? Flood the country with a couple of trillion dollars worth of consumer goods, porn, alcohol, (they already have the best hash), curtains, nike runners and mules. Wouldn’t you stop fighting if you could get a mule?

    • remlap says:

      04:52pm | 11/10/10

      I agree. The Afghani people must be sick of sandals. Time for an influx of mules! While we are at it, throw in some stilettos, knee high boots and the odd pair of thongs for those stinking hot summers. Best of all, we should be warming the feet and hearts of those good mountain folk of Afghanistan with the good old Ugg boot.

    • ann f says:

      07:21am | 11/10/10

      How can you win in a country that has never had a civil society, its always been tribal and the only time they have come together is to fight off invaders. As they obviously see our involvement. As soon as we leave no matter if they have an army and police force in place tribalism and religion comes first. And all these lives lost will have been wasted.

    • PaulB says:

      11:38am | 11/10/10

      Afghanistan had quite a civil society in the 70s, before the Russians began interfering.  Its been all downhill since.  The assumption that they’ve never had a civil society is like that assumption that Jews and Palestinians have been fighting since time immemorial: complete rubbish but a convenient myth for some.

    • Old Aussie says:

      02:09pm | 11/10/10

      Couldn’t agree with this opinion more. Why are young Australian men over there fighting for a better country when their young men scuttle here to live off us? The next thing will be to make this country into a replica of the one they ‘fled’.Shut the door on Afghanistan and let them do their own thing. It is none of our business.

    • David Jamison says:

      07:29am | 11/10/10

      Jason - isn’t it true that you have no military experience what so ever amd were simply working for a for-profit contractor in Afghanistan? Sure, you’ve lived in Afghanistan - but it is a little ironic to have you complain about commentators not knowing much about the issues in Afghanistan when you quite obviously over-play your own role in the war.

    • Andrew says:

      01:35pm | 11/10/10

      How true. A ‘for-profit’ contractor == Merc company pure and simple. BTW I have just returned from kabul you insulting little man. You sure as hell are not a Keith Murdoch with your insulting and factually incorrect piece of drivel.

      PC war, yeah right. The Soviets did it the other way in the 80’s and look how well that turned out. COIN is obviously something beyond your grasp. But at least spare us further attempts at explaining the war.

    • Pochihontas says:

      01:17am | 14/10/10

      From a quick Google its clear this is the same Jason Thomas who made an unsuccessful attempt to stand for Liberal Party preselection in Kooyong against (recently elected MP) Josh Frydenberg. But if we are now to believe his blurb, we might quickly conclude that Barack Obama awoke from his sleep one night with a clear vision of Mr Thomas in his head, and immediately appointed him to “oversee counterinsurgency operations with US forces”. The alternative - working for a private for-profit contractor that repairs concrete drains and digs ditches in outlying areas - sounds far less glamourous.

    • dobbieb says:

      07:32am | 11/10/10

      Well firstly, who the hell is Jason Thomas. No recognition of his qualifications in the article except to say he had been there. The person I spoke to on Saturday, who had been there and was about to return, told me that the Australian forces had rebuilt a hospital in Karen Towt as well as roads and schools. I thought this was what we were trying to do as well as train tradesmen but to do so meant protecting them from the Taliban. What was I told which was incorrect?

    • dancan says:

      08:05am | 11/10/10

      “Jason Thomas was the regional manager for the Central Asia Development Group, implementing a USAID program in south-east Afghanistan. Recently he returned from overseeing counterinsurgency operations with US forces in South East Afghanistan. ”

    • iansand says:

      07:43am | 11/10/10

      You cannot achieve military victory against a people in their own country.  If the Taliban were confined to the top left hand corner of Afghanistan you could win, eventually, through military tactics.  But you cannot subdue a whole country militarily.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:34am | 11/10/10

      If so then Germany and Japan have been running a very good cover for the past fifty years or so.

    • iansand says:

      12:46pm | 11/10/10

      Are you sure that those victories were entirely military?  And did the Germans and Japanese people remain enemies?  Personally, I think the Marshall Plan has a little to do with the current state of Germany and Japan.

    • St. Michael says:

      04:20pm | 11/10/10

      You said you cannot subdue a whole country militarily.  World War 2 says you’re wrong.  Germany was occupied by the Allies and Russia.  Japan surrendered entirely and consented to its military being cut down into a ‘Self Defence Force’.  It’s got nothing to do with the Marshall Plan.

    • iansand says:

      07:30pm | 11/10/10

      Compare WW 1 and WW 2.  The aftermath, particularly with special reference to Germany.  You can defeat an enemy, but you cannot subdue them.

    • Jim says:

      09:16pm | 11/10/10

      ^ This is the kind of thinking that bewilders me. We cannot achieve military victory against people in their own country?

      I mean honestly, where do you get such drivel? Where the Japanese not defending their country? Or the Germans theirs?

      Of course during those wars the objective was to win, not to come home, or to get out with enough of an excuse, it was to win and at all costs.

      The basic fact of the matter is that the Coalition countries involved could of course, if they so felt inclined, completely obliterate Afghanistan and turn it into a parking lot.

      I love how the “no war is ever good enough” peace and conflict studies hippies are now so versed in what can and cannot be won. Put in 200,000+ troops for 10 years and the job will be done no ifs or buts, standard COIN.

      If your going to go to war, then you go to win, no half measures, either that, or go home. Anything else is immoral to those there.

    • iansand says:

      09:32am | 12/10/10

      You are confusing defeating an army with defeating a people.

    • Gregg says:

      08:06am | 11/10/10

      Jason, this would be so laughable if it was not for the mass slaughtering of civillians that has occurred for you do not need to go back as far in history as Churchill and not too far east in distance and you will find a country beginning with V and that may as well stand for Victory but not for the Invaders.
      Yes Jason, you are perhaps a tad young to remember Vietnam.

      You didn’t do too badly with your article with only a few misplaced paragraphs before some more to the point and I’ll do some re-phrasing for you

      The Australian public may be being fed a one dimensional view of Afghanistan in your view but we’re not all dills and some will continue to question WTF are our troops doing there. 

      And who’s your commanding officer young man? Picture: AP
      They’ll have their leaders just like the VietCong

      Our mission in Afghanistan will not be successful Fullstop., the implementation of a range of mainly direct civilian engagements outside the safety of our Forward Operating Bases and a long way from the good coffee in the safe compounds in Kabul will result in many more NGO deaths.

      ” War is armed politics and counterinsurgency is an armed variant of domestic politics in which numerous challengers compete for control over the population. = Afghanistan has known much conflict and why not refer to the Taliban as Mujahadeen resisting the current invaders!

      ” unable to comprehend an environment that is highly complex, ambiguous and fluid.  It is extremely hard to know what is happening – trying too hard to find out can get you killed…and so can not knowing.  “
      Could have just as easily been written about Vietnam.

      All the examples you have given are really just Vietnam moved on half a century and the jungle removed.
      Sure there were different reasons for involvement and as for the Pakistan Taliban Jason, do you not know of how porous the border with the Pakistani NW frontier is, a region not controlled by Pakistan and that the Taliban can also be thought of as the military of the Pashtun peoples, people of the region that comprise the largest % of Afghanis and perhaps those of greatest poverty too.
      Karzai’s committe for peace is wanting to negotiate with the Taliban, Obama is wanting an exit initiated before having to face the voters and so the writing is on the wall, but the Taliban will not be telling anyone just yet what they have written!

      As for Ralph Peters, he may as well have written, a country’s citizens will support a war declared upon it and exactly the reason why the American War of Independence saw the Brits leave, why Hitler was defeated, why the French and the US left Vietnam, why so many invading forces have left Afghanistan and why you will always have Palestinians always fighting against Israel.

      And yes, from Afghanistan, we will crawl home with our tail between our legs like every other nation that has attempted to tame this tribal Byzantine society. Afghanistan is not known as the graveyard of empires for nothing.

    • Chris says:

      08:09am | 11/10/10

      I’m sure punches saw the insightful piece on 4 corners earlier in the year with Major General Cantwell, CTG 633 and his description of exactly what they are dealing with over there and Jason, from reading what you’ve said here and by the sounds of it experienced, and what MAJGEN Cantwell said this isn’t going to be a quick process, it doesn’t mean that we, i.e. the coalition, won’t “win” as such but if we can, over time, make life better for the locals with trade schools and infrastructure which makes a better option in the long long term rather than being a local thug with a dodgy AK47. It doesn’t help though when our soldiers are being taken to court by one of their own, it doesn’t make the job any easier.

    • Angela says:

      08:10am | 11/10/10

      Its not winnable for one reason, to much corruption, the people have no clue as they are uneducated and basically have been kept this way so they can be controlled.

      Its all about control in Afghanistan. Tribal Warlords and Religion. The people are too scared to stand up to the Taliban. I read a story of a whole Town near Pakistan that has totally gotten rid of the Taliban in their region, , they did this as the Taliban was systematically killing everyone and they had enough of them. 

      The people of Afghanistan have been hijacked for centuries for one cause or another. The west should of never interfered. But back to the real reason, once that pipeline through Afghanistan is Finished the Americans and everyone else will hightail it out of there and Once again the Afghans will suffer.

    • Rosie says:

      08:12am | 11/10/10

      With Julia Gillard at the helm what chances do we have of winning in Afghanistan????

      Gillard even said that she would prefer to be at school, a comment made by only those that do not have a passion about our involment in Afghanistan which is all “foreign affairs.” Compared to Tony Abbott who was keen to spend a couple of days in the thick of things but couldn’t because of security reasons. My advice to Gillard is to leave the bipartisan thing at home and let the experts visit the war zone. Tony Abbott and Stephen Smith together in Afghanistan would have been a better choice.

      The best we could do for our troops is to support them 100% for to fight the good fight most of all we need heart as said by Bob Katter.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:30am | 11/10/10

      Old Tuckered -Out Tony was keen to in “the thick of things” was he Rose ? Sounds like Private Joker and his buddy lamenting the lack of trigger time in Full Metal Jacket.
      Where do you get your information from ? Do you seriosly believe that Rose?, seriosly?

    • The Badger says:

      09:13am | 11/10/10

      Tony was “keen” to run a marathon between FOB’s, but they wouldn’t let him because they didn’t want him to show them up.
      Also
      Tony left his Dr. NO Lycra action hero suit in Birmingham and the insurgents would not have gotten his"message” without it because he doesn’t speak durkadurkistan languages.

    • Rosie says:

      10:04am | 11/10/10

      Chong & Badger

      I must be saying the right things because of the response I get from the likes of the two of you! Hoorah I am happy and worth my while blogging!

      Chong seriously if you read Today’s Headlines - The Australian National Affairs you will most certainly read and I quote; “Mr Abbott’s request to embed with troops and go on patrol with them was overruled by Defence for SECURITY REASONS.” - “thick of things” was an expression I decided to use.

      No doubt “the act of low bastardry for political gain” is Gillard’s minority Govt’s style of governance and once again have back fired. Like Bob Katter I repeat to fight a fight most of all we need heart! GOOD HEART GUYS! This is what is required for our brave men who are fighting the fight for our sakes and our country!

      Australia doesn’t need an unscrupulous Julia Gillard! The woman hasn’t got what it takes, even Kevin Rudd would be better than her.

      You guys must stop being in denial, this is a serious matter!

    • Dissident says:

      10:18am | 11/10/10

      Congratulations guys - you have managed to take a discussion about practical realities in Afghanistan and turned it into an issue about our ‘local’ politics. Nicely done. The Government and Opposition are in furious agreement about supporting the troops, so there shouldn’t be any debates about what each party is doing. Here’s an idea, let’s try to stay on topic for a while, shall we?

      Strategically speaking, Afghanistan is going to be this generation’s Vietnam. There is no way to win this war the way that we want to win it. There are just too many opportunists in Afghanistan - like the local thugs explained above - who will take advantage of the chaos to gain personal benefit. A strategy for withdrawal with a minimum of disruption needs to be developed immediately. I fully expect the vichy government set up in Afghanistan to immediately collapse within short order, but as long as the Coalition take all of their munitions with them when they go, less damage will be done after our departure. Maybe we should burn all the poppy fields before we go too - at least that will give some short term benefit to the world.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:11am | 11/10/10

      Hey Rosie, you might have missed the part where the ADF were deployed and are still basically following the same game plan as laid out by the then in power Liberal Party of which you are so enamoured and still advocated as the ‘solution’ by the current Liberal Party led by the rAbbot.

      Yeah, I know its a bit hard expecting Liberal shills to remember actual facts wink

    • Justan Oz says:

      11:27am | 11/10/10

      The same old Rosie!! Quite frankly my dear ;you make my day..You are the most rusted on of the rusted on!!

    • Rosie says:

      12:06pm | 11/10/10

      “You are the most rusted on of the rusted on!!”

      Fine by me but very difficult to find respect for a PM that swore black & blue would stay loyal to the nation’s elected PM. She politically assassinated Kevin Rudd for self gain and now is trying to justify her existence!

      To all Gillard supporters I say; No thanks bring Kevin Rudd, he will get the respect due to any Australian elected PM.

    • Dr Dog says:

      01:06pm | 11/10/10

      I would prefer Tony Abbott was at school.

    • Rosie says:

      01:42pm | 11/10/10

      Yeah Dr Dog then we might have had a minority Govt with a PM governing the country instead of playing school kids games and worried about Tony Abbott’s capabilities of bringing down yet another Labor leader.

      Under the controversial circumstances Gillard got herself into power, she is dead scared Tony Abbott will do to her what he did to Kevin Rudd.

      Anyway, we must get back to topic and the fact Afghanistan is a sensitive issue and I repeat what Bob Katter had to say; “to fight the good fight most of all we need heart” not silly games that the unscrupulous Julia Gillard plays to stay in power.

    • TheRealDave says:

      06:35pm | 11/10/10

      Rosie - its over sweety, your bloke lost, get over it.

    • Roja says:

      12:00am | 12/10/10

      “she is dead scared Tony Abbott will do to her what he did to Kevin Rudd”

      Personally my bet is that Abbott is more worried Hockey is going to do to him what he did it to Turnbull. 

      If Abbott continues meaningless stunts like asking to be deployed on the front lines - knowing full well that it would never be allowed and more importantly it would put our soldiers lives at risk.  They are there to do a job, while his job is not to cynically ask if he can hang out for the day for political mileage.  Don’t give a crap about the jet lag line, he had good reasons (the media should have known better) - but the ‘send me to the front line’ is a sign of real desperation.

    • Old Clive says:

      08:16am | 11/10/10

      Where next after Afghanistan, America needs wars to keep their employment ratio within bounds, the arms industry is making millions out of wars plus employing people on the home front, we evenmake land mines here in Australia. Not withstanding the above fact, democracy is a dream to some people and a fact to others, to think that every country in the world is going to embrace democracy is a pipe dream, we have people here in Australia who have no idea of democracy and just do what they are told sometimes by leaders who are just interested in control and power.

    • Isabel says:

      08:30am | 11/10/10

      Iran?

    • RT says:

      01:30pm | 11/10/10

      Give the US an easy target who will just surrender… I’m looking at you France!

    • Jon says:

      08:41am | 11/10/10

      A Byzantine society was a much more sophisticated and civilized than the one we have Afghanistan at the present time, which is a feudal, tribal Islamic Society. They would be far better for then and us if they were a Byzantine society or a Buddhist one as they were once until a previous invasion put an end to that.

    • The Badger says:

      09:33am | 11/10/10

      In Australia we have biker gangs running around dealing in drugs, extortion, prostitution and death.
      We have not defeated these bikers, yet we know where they live, we know what they are doing and we outgun and outnumber them.
      We need civilians to get amongst these bikers and help them change their lives rebuild their shattered psyche and become a force for good.

      Finally, we must also stop using the word win.  The Nations police forces may succeed and we may not like the look of that success.

      Success will mean negotiating with the local Bikers, removing corrupt government officials, arresting biker presidents and biker drug barons and publicly confronting those who support them in multi-state forums for their duplicitous approach to the biker activity and the drugs that flood over the borders into Australia.

      None of this is neat and tidy and none of it will be done by our Australian police alone.

    • Markus says:

      10:23am | 11/10/10

      That is such an ignorant and racist suggestion, Badger!
      Not all bikers are drug dealers! I am friends with a biker, and he is the nicest guy ever, and barely deals any drugs!
      We should respect their culture of riding bikes and violent assaults, and welcome them in our country.

    • Roja says:

      10:24am | 11/10/10

      Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ey?  Not much for religion myself but they teach a few key lessons we as the human race continue to ignore.

    • TimB says:

      11:15am | 11/10/10

      Markus, I hope to god you aren’t serious.

      Racist? I mean since when was “Biker” a race?
      “Barely deals any drugs”- Guess what. That means he’s a drug dealer. He’s breaking the law.

      “We should respect their culture of riding bikes and violent assaults”.
      Respect a culture of violent assaults??? This is the part that makes me think your post might be a joke, but I have no idea what you’re trying to accomplish with it…

      Either that or this is a really dumb post.

      @ Badger, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. If the police know these people are breaking the law & have the evidence they should go and toss them in jail, it’s as simple as that. We don’t need this sort of stuff on the streets.

    • The Badger says:

      12:40pm | 11/10/10

      Tim,
      Just wanted to wind you up.
      That’s all

      It’s a parody on how we can’t even effectively deal with biker gangs in Australia and we want to deal with militant extremists in far flung parts of the world.
      perhaps.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      09:50am | 11/10/10

      Sorry but the Coalition is getting their ass handed to them on a platter in Pakistan. You don’t have that many convoys blown up and shot to hell without having to admit that you have a serious problem. But I’d have to agree that there has been no real attempt to embed coalition forces into the village at a local level. Also a war to support an incredibly corrupt government and resumption of the opium trade is not a crash hot rationale…

    • Ibrahim says:

      09:57am | 11/10/10

      An Islamic society’s aim is not to have a luxury goods, industrial might, sophisticated weaponry etc etc. Had that been the aim, then the Muslims would have easily surpassed all other societies (remember when Muslims were the most learned people on earth??????? whilst Europeans were struggling to even have a bath??? The Muslims who defeated the Crusaders would comment on how bad the Crusaders from Europe smelt. Basic items such as soap was introduced into Europe by the Muslims. Poverty is better that having all the wealth in the world and not be a practising Muslim.  I am a Muslim and can tell you that most people in the West value this world more than it should be. The people in Afghanistan will have their reward in Paradise God willing but what will the reward of the West be in the hereafter?

      “Verily Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah’s Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth, which is binding, on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to His covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain, which you have concluded. That is the supreme success.” (The Noble Qur’an: Surah 9 Ayat 111)

      Know you (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of Allah). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception? (Surat al-Hadid: 20)

      It has happend before when a seemingly illiterate people (Arabs in 6th Century) came on the stage to defeat the superpowers of the time (Persia, Roman, Byzantine etc) and came to rule a vast empire.

      Perhaps the “educated” in this forum better read some history books, perhaps read up on Spain as well and when Muslims ruled that country for hundreds of years and how this impacted on the development of Europe.

    • Richard The Lionheart says:

      11:20am | 11/10/10

      Iv’e been to Dubai and KL and seen it all. You are no different to the rest of us.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:26am | 11/10/10

      You might want to double check some of those dates on your history. We’ve moved on a bit in the near 600 years since the high water mark of Islamic history when Constantinople fell.

      Not pressuring you or anything. I know learning and facts are an anathema to most religions.

    • Paul says:

      12:02pm | 11/10/10

      “An Islamic society’s aim is not to have a luxury goods, industrial might, sophisticated weaponry etc etc”
      ......UAE?
      ......Saudi Arabia?
      ......Iran?
      I guess it’s just a romantic notion that makes you feel good but isn’t a true refection on reality.  Tell me, are you living in a mudshack eating from a wooden bowl to pursue your ideology? Or are you just another hypocrite grandstanding?

    • Dr Dog says:

      01:20pm | 11/10/10

      Hi Ibrahim,

      I see you don’t claim that Islamists are the most learned people on Earth right now. Just as well given the attitude of many Afghanis to education and science, especially for women.

      But I digress. Are you trying to say that Muslims have deliberately taken themselves from an enlightened people back into the dark ages of blind faith and that this is somehow a good thing? Just asking because that is what you seem to be saying.

    • Jon says:

      01:43pm | 11/10/10

      Please, you keep the soap. The religion of peace was a failure in Mohammed’s day. Without jihad, there would be no Islam. Islam owes its growth and power to its politics, violence and booty. Whether it is the religion is of peace or not is of no consequence. Islam is the politics of oppression and lethal force. At least Christianity has had a good hard look at its history, but Islam seems incapable of self-criticism. Yes, please read history but not one from the Islamic point of view.

      Regarding Allah, he was a pagan deity pre dating the Islamic era. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters. His symbol was the crescent moon. We even have stone idols of him stored at the British Museum.

    • Roja says:

      01:22am | 12/10/10

      I thought the crusades thankfully failed when two different religious groups started fighting each other, not unlike what happened in Iraq with that whole Shia vs Sunni armed debate. 

      If you are a student of history, you should look at how the idiocy of the crusades was a precedent that helped lead to a secular society - where research that didn’t conflict with religion was allowed rather than burning it’s author for heracy.  It led to the industrial age and now the most enlightened age of mankind.  I’m willing to bet the automobile, Aviation and Nuclear Power trumps soap in terms of contribution to the human race. 

      You mention Spain, it truly flourished when Christianity, Islam and Judaism all got along swimmingly.  Then those crazy Christians types took over and implemented many centuries of the Spanish inquisition which didn’t pan out well for followers of Judaism and Islam.  I believe Spain is pretty keen on secular society these days as well, although too late to undo the damage it did to it’s reputation as centre of excellence in study and knowledge.

      Seems to me the greatest society tends to be one that is balanced and that which allows everyone freedom to express, create and think - not where one dominates completely. 

      Of course it helps if everyone is balancing attention to their current life with the after life.

    • Zeta says:

      09:58am | 11/10/10

      We can’t win Afghanistan. We can’t even succeed. You look at the conflict in theoretical game terms, a variation of the ancient Chinese game Go -

      You got two teams, black and white - the object of the game is to control the most sectors on the board, but unlike a direct military interpretation of Go, the board can also be said to represent the so called ‘hearts and minds’ of the populace.

      The way you win in Go is you surround your opponents pieces and when he can’t move anywhere, the pieces are captured. But in the Afghanistan variation, every time the black team loses a piece, he gains two more pieces. Every time the white team loses a piece, he takes another two pieces off the table. The black team always wins, because even losing a battle contributes to winning the war.

      We talk about the asymetrical nature of warfare as if it favours the Western aggressor with their superior numbers and technology - but when you break it down into game theory, it’s asymetric, but it’s the other way around.

      War is meant to be a zero sum game, that is, when you tabulate the wins and losses of each side they should always equal zero. But insurgency doesn’t work like that. For every insurgent you kill, you create two more insurgents. For every civilian you accidently kill, thier brothers, fathers, sons and husbands become insurgents. While every one of our soldiers they kill is not replenished, and eventually, there is a number of soliders that can be killed that will result in the mission being aborted.

      Any one who’s ever played Go, or studied Game Theory knows in that situation, the only way to ‘win’ is to reach a Nash equilibrium - that is, we know the equilibrium strategy of both players.

      We know the Taliban’s best strategy is to kill all Coalition forces, or else continue to confront Coalition forces because even having their own numbers killed is advantageous to their cause in the long term.

      Our ‘best strategy’ has to therefore be one that does not give the Taliban an advantage should they change their strategy, nor should it change the payoff matrix of our own strategy - therefore, the equilibrium point in Afghanistan is to simply remove our pieces from the table - since the only thing that will happen if we stay is that our people will die while the Taliban’s numbers increase it is the only way to stop the Taliban’s numbers from increasing.

    • jack thomas says:

      10:16am | 11/10/10

      when you have nothing to eat for 2 days and your pack weighs 40kg and your mouth and eyes are full of sand..and the bastards are shooting you up and NO air support..and negative bastards like you are telling us how to win the war….. grab a rifle.. plenty of room here….AUSTRALIA has commitments ... WE KEEP EM’

    • Zeta says:

      10:51am | 11/10/10

      Your enemy has lived with sand his entire life, his pack weighs a quarter of yours and consists of one AK-47 assault rifle older than the average Australian soldier and the chest rig it came packed with, it probably belonged to his father, who killed Russians with it, or else he was given it by American intelligence. He will never have air support… and he will never complain. He trains every second he’s awake. He doesn’t go home, he is home. And if you eventually kill him, his son will fight to avenge him, or his brother, or his father.

      You want to keep a commitment to fighting that?

    • Leto says:

      12:29pm | 11/10/10

      Vietnam vets can admit that their war was a waste of time and that they should never have been sent. When will you Jack?

      So as to not appear unhelpful, I have decided to give you some tips. Goggles are very useful for protecting the eyes. I use them at home when I am drilling things in the garage, so they should be ok for sand.

      When I was in the army, we used to do clever things cut our toothbrushes in half to try and save weight. have you done this? I didn’t bring spare underpants either, but I didn’t tell anyone else that. Repack and try weighing it again, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

      Can’t help you with the air support; did you try to radio them? CAS pilots aren’t mind readers you know.

      I say stay at home, it will solve all the problems you outline.

    • Richard The Lionheart says:

      10:21am | 11/10/10

      The war against terrorism must be won. Immagine the future when suitcase size nuclear devices can blow up a suburb in the name of God. Dysfunctional Pakistan, Iran and North Korea come to mind for their deep seated hatreds of “the West”. Back to Afganistan, our Generals should take a lateral viewpoint and prevent amunition supplies to street thugs and Taliban by attacking their supply routes through the NW mountains. The enemy being lazy, use donkeys. Donkey’s 60 km either side of the boarder should be destroyed. A trade off with genuine farmers can be swapped with a ute. Donkeys are used to carry the poppy trade back into Pakistan. Starve the enemy of supplies like we did with Japan and the Africa Corps and then we can negotiate.

    • Zeta says:

      10:45am | 11/10/10

      You realise there is no such thing as a suitcase nuke? The only evidence for their existence comes from GRU defector Stanislav Lunev who claimed the Soviets had caches of nuclear weapons weighing 50-60 pounds. No cache was ever discovered. And since one can assume that should such a weapon ever have been developed and subsequently lost, and subsequently handed to terrorists they would have used it at their earliest opportunity it’s safe to assume they never have.

      The myth comes from two sources - a long standing rumour that KGB agents smuggled the components for a nuclear weapon into the United States over a period of a decade inside diplomatic satchels, and because of the Mk-54 SADM, a backpack nuke designed for destroying bridges and dams - it would have been pretty ineffective if let off in a suburb.

      The only supplies the Taliban needs are bullets. The caves in which the dwell are rich in enough sulphur, charcoal and bat shit to make all the bullets they’ll ever need - and the last two wars have supplied them with all the empty shell cases to keep the war going a long, long time.

      Even then, how do you deal with the fact Pakistan can simply fly helicopters through their own military corridor they provide the Coalition and hand over more sophisticated weapons when ever they want.

      The after action reports released on WikiLeaks are rife with accounts Pakistani secret service operatives delivering weapons to Taliban fighters via Pakistani military helicopters. All the donkey killing in the world aren’t going to stop that.

    • Jack B says:

      01:27pm | 11/10/10

      You realise there is no such thing as a suitcase nuke?

      You obviously haven’t seen 24!

    • Roja says:

      04:22pm | 11/10/10

      The non-existent backpack nuke’s you speak of are for one purpose only, to sell the idea that terrorists can inflict a nuclear strike on home soil.  Terrorists aren’t the only ones using fear as a weapon, western governments tend to be pretty keen on using it for their own purposes as well. 

      Your donkey strategy is also pretty uneducated, Iran is a lot better equipped at supplying it’s proxy foot soldiers in Afghanistan with all sorts of goodies - with payments made via Iranian aid & construction workers on a per head & vehicle basis. 

      Essentially this is like Korea & Vietnam except this time around it’s Iran funding the enemy instead of China.  Or like Afghanistan in the 80’s when the US funded the taliban to fight the Russians.  With that in mind I say we let the Taliban take control of the country and then just fund and equip the numerous drug barons, warlords and disparate insurgent groups to cause trouble.  That theory worked pretty well against the last 5 ruling powers there.

    • Tony Matthews says:

      11:30am | 11/10/10

      Richard The Lionheart -  stop beleiving in propaganda released by mainstream media… Google the term “Government Staged Terror” and you will find a LIST or should I say a plethora of terrorist acts that have been staged by governments to bring in legislation, laws and war!

      We are in Afganistan for the money involved in war, oil and HEROIN! We did it in Vietnam and it is happening again… History repeats itself and it is the same propaganda that sells the idea and fools that fall for it!!!

      Dont be a sheep and do your own research!

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:30am | 11/10/10

      I agree with the author. We cannot win militarily in Afghanistan.

      Not when we commit a single Company minus (say just under 1/4 of a single battalion) of Infantry when we have 7 full strength Infantry battalions, Artillery, brand new tanks and other armour, armed helicopters - basically the other 95% of our Defence force - sitting on its arse at home.

      And the same goes with our Allies.

      We could provide a lot better security in Afghanistan AND NW Pakistan tomorrow if we actually committed the resources needed.

      If only we had the political will - and we don’t, from BOTH sides of politics and from our Allies. This will not be a Military loss, its another political loss.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:13pm | 11/10/10

      Thomas’s clarification of the various armed threats in Afghanistan makes for interesting reading.  How anyone thinks we’re ever going to have enough force to exert any real authority in that country is beyond my comprehension.  It’s a case of simple numbers, and the West doesn’t have enough volunteers to do the job.  It never did.

      Our *political* leaders don’t know how to win in Afghanistan because they’re (a) too squeamish to contemplate what “winning” might entail, and (b) not being military don’t know how in any event.  But our *military* leaders also don’t know how to “win” because the West hasn’t “won” an asymmetrical infantry war with against a determined insurgent opponent since 1945.  And before you point out Desert Storm: that’s 100 hours of conventional conflict against a conventional army, not against civilian-disguised guerrillas.  Not much of a war, and not much in the way of experience on *insurgent* wars.  Bosnia also doesn’t count since that was a peacekeeping mission and control was maintained overwhelmingly via air power, not by troops on the ground.

      How do you define a “win”? Gen. Douglas MacArthur had the answer to that one in his farewell address to the students of West Point: “There is no substitute for total victory.”  Feel free to pontificate that MacArthur’s forces were the only ones to detonate nukes against a human target, but his results speak for themselves: Japan is a de facto Western country who *loved* MacArthur while he was there in occupation over them.  Similar can be said for Germany and Italy.

      MacArthur’s point being that you cannot have a halfassed win.  You either win, are defeated, or win without destroying the enemy’s capacity to harm you or your people, which is the same as a defeat because it merely delays the onset of further conflict.  If you are not prepared to win, do not send your military in to begin with; find another way.  Patton was no different.  People can sneer all they like at these men’s personal failings, but their military record is close to unmatched.

      Politicians and the career military are more interesting in talking a good game than doing what has to be done.  They disguise this by only vaguely describing what it is they want to do.  Hell, the “mission” is no longer to bring Western democracy to Afghanistan, it’s now apparently to train the ANP up to take control of the region.  Gosh, that sounds familiar.

    • dobbo says:

      12:29pm | 11/10/10

      Simple solution..keep our own Action Man Tony embedded with the troops. Please. That’ll solve things.

      Mind you he was momentarily humble enough to tell the troops he couldn’t win an election so mightn’t be much use in a fire fight.

      But why Abbott has to keep boosting Gillard’s stocks by (indirectly) praising her political cunning in outmanoeuvering him is beyond me.

    • notSue says:

      12:29pm | 11/10/10

      Of course we can’t “win” in Afghanistan, it doesn’t take a genius to work that out. However, I notice very few people are mentioning the uncomfortable truth of why we entered the conflict in the first place, and that is because of our very necessary (deny it all you like) alliance with the USA, who were attacked by terrorists supported and sheltered in Afghanistan. Since we entered the conflict in order to support the US in it’s effort to nullify that support mechanism, it became imperative, propaganda -wise. that we are seen to be attempting to leave the country in a better state than that in which we found it, which is of course irrational and unachievable, as history has shown. “The graveyard of empires” is right.

      Anyone who belives stupid conspiracy theories about ’ government sponsored terror” needs urgent help, by the way.

    • St. Michael says:

      04:30pm | 11/10/10

      I’ve said before that in Australia we have a habit of making blood sacrifices on the altars of our colonial overlords for the sake of an apron of protection.  Albeit the price seems to have come down from the tens of thousands of men the UK required to 21 in the current conflict.

      Doesn’t change the fact we have a moral duty to object to the rules of engagement and pull out if we’re not heeded.  I very much doubt the US is going to break the US-Australian alliance if we leave, simply because they need our signal bases here.  We volunteered for Afghanistan, the US didn’t ask.  I don’t see NATO being disbanded because Canada and the Netherlands have decided it’s time to take their bats and balls and go home.

    • Doug says:

      12:30pm | 11/10/10

      We can win very easily in Afghanistan. It simply depends on how much force we are prepared to use. Because the West IS civilised and endeavours to fight according to certain standards, we don’t bring our nastiest weapons to bear. We could torch the poppy fields today; level communities like Kandahar, Quetta [yeah I know where it is but we have the weapons is my point] and any other hotbed of opposition; nuke the whole country if necessary - BUT WE DON’T. We don’t because we actually are trying to win this war FOR the Afghans as much as for ourselves. And, in a conventional sense, we could employ overwhelming force; military government; and bottom up re-education of the Afghan people. It’s just so expensive and we haven’t been provoked to that extreme. People who say we can’t win need to qualify their statements. If we fight nice and limit our options, that is a risk. However, because we want the Afghans to have some chance of enjoying better lives, we choose to fight nice.

    • Markus says:

      01:12pm | 11/10/10

      It really would be interesting (read terrifying) to see the USA finally give up on trying to win over nations and instead start acting like the corrupt imperialist scum that it is so often accused of being.

      It’s hard to be fundamentalist when you and your entire nation were just wiped off the face of the earth with a few ICBMs.

    • Gregg says:

      03:05pm | 11/10/10

      Doug, in short I think what you have posted could read we do not know what we’re doing there and if we don’t know it’s WTF are we still there for.
      As for FOR, winning for Afghanis means the Afghani Pashtun I’d also assume, not only the highest %of Afghanis but also strongest support base of the Taliban and they’re also Afghanis whom it just so happens Karzai’s mob is attempting to broker a deal with!
      So yeah!, more WTF!

    • James Hunter says:

      12:43pm | 11/10/10

      Excellent.
      Can this be made compulsory reading for all members of Parliament. ?
      If not , Why not !!
      Maybe The Punch could be so kind as to forward it to the in box of all the usual suapects ??

    • Markus says:

      12:58pm | 11/10/10

      After having mastered the art of winning over nations through capitalism, why are the USA trying to go back to the ever-unsuccessful tactic of militarily backing a corrupt government to succeed?

      Pump Afghanistan with all the McDonalds, SUVs and Ikea furniture they can handle, then throw on some additional Burger King and Subway (eat fresh!) for good measure.

      Let’s see how much they hate the West once they never have to worry about excess food or comfy furniture ever again.

    • Dr Dog says:

      01:50pm | 11/10/10

      I am with you Markus,

      Peace and the like are, largely speaking, middle class concerns. If we want Afghanistan to share those concerns then we should do our best to make them middle class.

      After all as pointed out in the article one of the reasons we can’t properly prosecute this war is that we have become squeamish about killing people.

    • Colin says:

      03:07pm | 11/10/10

      If the scientists put as much effort into making Afghanistan a fertile place as they put into making munitions, the Afghan people would have no time for war or the taliban and peace would break out. This terraforming would also give our scientific community practice for colonising the planets. I doubt the vested interests would let that happen though.

    • Chris says:

      04:19pm | 11/10/10

      That would be great, but I didn’t realise that the Taliban originally seized control of the country as a result of lack of farming land?

    • St. Michael says:

      04:23pm | 11/10/10

      ...Well, leaving aside the science fiction, Colin, Afghanistan doesn’t need any terraforming.  It’s a perfectly fertile place as it is.  You do realise where a large slice of the world’s opium comes from, don’t you?

    • nosthow says:

      04:13pm | 11/10/10

      Glad to see our Opposition leader Tony “jetlagged” Abbott finally found the time to call in and see our serving troops in Afghansitan ! Now hes arrived back in Australia with reputation in shreds he is blaming Gillard for the furore - forgetting of course it was him that made the statement he was too jetlagged” to call in. What a rabbitt this Abbott is ! And now we also find the Coalition did not audit their election promise fundings as they said they did - god help me if this poor form keeps up I will never join the Liberal party !

    • taiabada says:

      09:04am | 12/10/10

      The “jetlag” comment was typically Tony but in itself was nothing.  The real issue was Gillard’s statement made on camera about Tony not going with her (to trail along like a lapdog) and the smirk on her face as she made her snide remark about his sleeping arrangements and herself being fresh and alert.  I suspect both Tony Abbott and his family would be pleased to know she had nothing to do with his sleeping situation - look what happened to Caraig Emerson!
      She has surpassed herself since becoming the PM - she has even managed to become more bitchy than Kevin Rudd, and that means a lot.
      Abbott’s reply was merely bumbling - her’s was gross bitchiness and political opportunism.

    • Peace Monger says:

      06:57am | 12/10/10

      Just send all Afghan male asylum seekers and refugees back to Afghanastan so they can fight for their own country instead of our troops losing their lives for a hideous religious war.

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      07:45am | 12/10/10

      Ibrahim, Well I can see from your comment that you are a Muslim and like all muslim people you are proud of your Allah. But the problem lies in the fact that if you cannot produce your Allah for the rest of us to see then we would construe that Allah is a figment of the imagination.

      Another problem in this for me is that, I have a God of my own. Now my God has never written anything, made any commands, never spoken and in actuality cannot even create. He sits in stillness and absolute silence and doesn’t move from his seat. It is because of that that the world is not destroyed. It is the feminine principal that creates in this world. Now it’s alright to have Gods but we must put them in the right perspective.

      Every man and Women believe differently even if they have the same religion, therefore one could presume that God is a personal issue for us all. To imply that Allah is greater than everyone elses Gods is an insult to God. Just because people gather in large numbers doesn’t make anything true. The Christians also think that their God is great as well.

      Now it doesn’t matter how great you make your Allah I will tell you that Allah is not as great as the God I have. So there is no point in making insulting remarks about my God on here and presuming that your Allah is greater. It depends on how high one can think and imagine and what attributes are given by us.

      Those who live by the books and the words of zealots are just really pushing the barrow of others and their dogmas of control. They don’t realize that it’s what it means to them that is important. Forget about what it means to the Imams and Ayotollahs, they are not important. It’s what it means to you that is important, never forget it.! But the fear is there and is well promoted in Religions.

      People think that by gathering together in large numbers makes everything true, but it is weakness and fear that is the true reason for gathering together. People think falsely that more is better, but it is not true. It is actually less that is better. Now I think that Islam is a nice religion and is equal to say Christianity. They have some nice things in the Muslim faith, things such as music, art etc and you are probably right in saying that Islam gave a lot to the world from their culture but we must remember that unless absolute proof is given by religions to the others of the existence of God then none will come to that side.

      Your ancient ancestors were not muslim, Jesus was not Christian, Buddah was not Buddhist. Yes there were Religions around long before modern Religions,  They thought that their Gods were great as well but were probably not as arrogant, but we all know that history shows that Islam and Christianity were moved forward by the sword otherwise no one would have bothered. If your religion is so good then they should stop their murdering of others who are different and let your religion stand on its merit and see how many come to your side.

      The nature of this world is creation and then annihilation. Everything that is created in this world will eventually be destroyed and we know that it is just not a theory that we have birth and death. So to my understanding there is no point in following some Religion that eventually will be destroyed by the laws related to Creation, time, space and object. Yes as Islam was created it will be destroyed and the karmas that come to destroy it will be metted to Islam in the same way that they metted out their false ideologies on others.

      All your religions will eventually be destroyed and new ones will arise. You can’t continue to give false impressions to God. So I will stay with my God and you will never know about that one, shame really. But don’t put down my God and think that by the insecurity of gathering in numbers to worship make in some way that your Allah is greater. The reading of verses is ok for the ignorant and intellectual but to know God requires greater things to be made in the practical application of what is written and I would like to see where Allah spoke, wrote something, moved form his seat and spoke great things. You produce that and I will convert to Islam otherwise it is individual belief for me. But I do wish you good luck with your belief but just realize that there are others who are the majority who have their own and that it would be right to have respect for them and for Allahs sake killing should be stopped immediately. What was the old saying form the scripture about turning your weapons into plough shears, well maybe there may be some wisdom in that, and that should be applied and then we can all have our feelings and move on with individual life. Now that would be good don’t you think.?

    • GGibson says:

      09:43am | 12/10/10

      Defence is at its constant 3rd world levels….so what could be expected of them? The Defence gun cupboard is empty of weapons for a citizens home guard defence force and China is secretly building a 200 million man army. Mao spoke about this (his)  200 million soldiers way back in the early 1960s and the number lines up precisely with Revelation 9:16’s 200 million. Fill the gun cupboard because China is surely going to move outwards into asia. The classic Divine revelation of enemy soldiers on Australian soil comes from Jack Burrells book WHAT WILL BECOME OF AUSTRALIA 1974. Excerpts are on the net.

    • Fred says:

      11:25am | 12/10/10

      Wondering whether politicians and military chiefs have asked the refugees who fled and were allowed to settle here,  how to deal with the Taliban and the foreign insurgents in Afghanistan. Without cultural and historical understanding, Western help whether development aid or military might ,is pretty useless. I’d appreciate knowing what “winning the hearts and minds” of the people of Afghanistan actually means and understand our troops are doing a good job in this regard. But. How do you stop genocide based on tribal and religious difference? How do you protect women and children from homicidal sexist armed brutes with the political power, for whom women are things, possessions and owned? What must we demand of the Karzai Government by way of reform?

    • Sunnie says:

      01:47pm | 12/10/10

      Afghanistan is another word for Vietnam
      We are conned again

    • Anjuli says:

      02:05pm | 12/10/10

      Every one is an expert from afar, regardless of any ones opinion our troops need all of our support and all that goes with it.

    • St. Michael says:

      05:13pm | 12/10/10

      Spot the person with Rear Area Guilt laced with Treatment Of Vietnam Veterans Guilt Syndrome!

      Me, I don’t give a flying frak how much red paint was thrown at Vietnam veterans.  Stupid deaths are still stupid deaths regardless of how patriotically they took place.  If the troops are in a country and shouldn’t be there because they’re only going to get themselves killed for a futile exercise, it’s our duty to bloody well protest about it in Australia.

    • Cicero says:

      04:03pm | 21/09/11

      Worked with this idiot in Adghanistan - perhaps you should ask him why he was ‘let go’ after he started dispalying a Walter Mitty/Rambo type personality that worried all of us he would get himself killed - but worse us with him.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Malcolm Farr

@AndrewCatsaras Agreed. Kills more people than AIDS. Yet tolerated. Meanwhile: Good Insiders piece again Andrew.

Daniel Piotrowski

RT @JamieTravers: I'm in Europe and don't care for Eurovision, why is my twitter feed filled with Aussies recounting the bloody thing!?

Anthony Sharwood

Dementor doing a good job for sweden #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

Ukraine song pinches chord progression from The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony. Fo real #sbseurovision

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

An email was sent to almost every politician in Australia this week saying that someone should cut off…

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

We admire them, but we’re not entirely sure why. We allow them to operate in the shadows; we rarely…

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

Like a fat full-stop, it lay in my hand. A small orange – not exactly fresh, but purchased anyway…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

243 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter