When the Reverend Seth Kaper-Dale took over the running of the Reformed Church of Highland Park, in New Brunswick, New Jersey, he didn’t realise that most of his Indonesian Christian congregation was living illegally in the United States.

Indonesians Harry, Rita, and their two year old American daughter, Georgia. Picture: Paul Toohey

Now, after almost a decade of battles, a deadline is pressing hard on 73 members of his church, who are being told to go back to Indonesia.

This may seem like an old story; and one that is happening far from Australia. And it is, on both counts. But these Indonesians, living in fear in New Jersey, still somehow seem to me like Australia’s neighbours.

Sitting with Seth in his church are Harry Tuwo and his wife, Rita Pauned, from Manado, on the northern part of Sulawesi. They don’t have much time to talk. They’ve got to go. They are under orders to report to the local office of Immigration and Custom Enforcement, with one-way air tickets, so they can be shipped home.

The couple’s story of how they came to arrive in America is not a straightforward, emblematic asylum case. Harry, 41, came to the US on a tourist visa in 1995. He got a social security number, a driver’s licence and a job. He knowingly overstayed his visa. He just wanted to live in America.

Rita, 37, arrived in 1999, during the period of church-burning and religious persecution that hit north Sulawesi’s Christians hard. She too came on a tourist visa, but it was the best way to get out of Indonesia fast. Her story is that she was on a boat travelling to Jakarta when most of the Christian passengers were massacred.

She, too, overstayed. They met and married.

Back then, the US had sympathy for Indonesian Christians and Chinese-Indonesians, whom the mob always seemed to turn on first. America took the view that under Suharto, all Indonesians were persecuted. Tourist visas were easy to obtain.

Then came September 11, 2001. Everything changed. America wanted to know whom it had let in and who had overstayed. 

In 2002, US Attorney General John Ashcroft announced the National Security Entry Exit Registration System - NSEERS. The program, only recently disbanded, required Muslim non-citizen men aged between 18 and 65 to register with the Department of Homeland Security and be fingerprinted, photographed and interviewed.

If those on overstayed visas did not report, they would be classified as terrorist-fugitives.

The Reverend Seth’s congregation, including Harry and Rita, understandably took the threat very seriously. They – like other Indonesian Church congregations around the US – consulted their pastors. They didn’t want to be branded terrorists and possibly end up in Guantanamo Bay.

The catch was that those who hadn’t already applied for asylum before the NSEERS came into force in early 2003 would never be permitted to do so.

“I, along with other pastors in the area, took the view that honesty would be better than a life of hiding,” says the reverend, who now wonders if he gave the right advice.

“I feel we pulled people into the path of destruction, by being honest, and have caused a lot of pain.”

The men all duly registered with NSEERS and lived openly, as registered non-citizens. For several years, nothing happened. Then, in 2006, agents staged a raid on a New Jersey apartment complex where many Indonesians were living.

That night, 35 men were detained. They were sent back to Indonesia.

Others who had registered with NSEERS began living in fear. The wives of the men who had been sent home changed address, or changed their names. Many of them now had young children born in the US, who were US citizens. Some mothers kept their children away from school so as not to attract attention.

None of the Indonesians wanted to go home. They had started new lives. And for those who left at the height of the most intense anti-Christian, anti-Chinese tensions, they remain unconvinced to this day that Indonesia is safe.

There was a constant trickle of deportees after 2006. Then, in 2009, a key member of Seth’s church, Harry Pangemanan, 41, who had come to the US in 1993 and overstayed his tourist visa, was detained and prepared by ICE for deportation.

Seth began a political campaign and had Harry Pangemanan released from custody, just as he was about to be put on a flight.

President Barack Obama had come to power by then and was talking up a new policy on immigration, which would see people who had lived here illegally, and had started families, paid tax and had no criminal history, be permitted to stay if they passed good character checks.

The policy would apply to all, but was mainly designed to bring the millions of Mexican illegal workers into the fold as taxpayers and citizens – and to stop bosses paying these powerless people sub-minimum wages.

The Indonesians benefitted from this vague presidential edict and were put under general supervision orders and told their cases would be reviewed in two years. But now that time has arrived, they are once again they are being told to leave.

This week, an initial group of 13 New Jersey Indonesians reported to their local ICE office after their church staged an all-night vigil.

When they turned up at the ICE offices, none took their passports or one—way plane tickets, as ordered – but they did have volunteer lawyers. None of them were arrested, but all were told to report again in coming weeks.

Others members of Seth’s church have been fronting up at the ICE office throughout the week.

Seth holds out hope for his Indonesian congregation three reasons. The first is that God will answer their prayers.

The second is that the Obama administration sent out a memo on June 17, this year, asking ICE agencies to exercise prosecutorial discretion on cases where people have established families and no criminal history. He says all members of his Indonesian congregation meet that criteria and he can only think that the local New Jersey ICE office hasn’t yet seen the memo.

The third reason is that a bill went before Congress this week. It is called the Indonesian Families Refugee Protection Act, and seeks to allow all the estimated 2000 people who arrived between 1997 and 2002, during the Indonesian turmoil, to file for asylum.

This would not help the two men named Harry, who are mentioned in this story. Both arrived before 1997. And it may not help any of them.

The proposed bill would not be passed until after the next year’s election, if at all. The Indonesians’ only hope is that news of this Democrat-sponsored bill sends a message to ICE officers to put their cases on hold, again. But that is wishful thinking.

If there is no immediate political or divine intervention, the Indonesians expect they will be deported, within weeks or early next year.

Husbands and wives say if that happens, they will leave their US-born children behind, to be raised here by friends or relatives.

Rita and Harry Tuwo have two American-born children, the youngest being Georgia, a two-year-old with Down Syndrome.

“Here, she’s got therapy,” says Rita, who made inquiries whether there were similar services available at her home in Indonesia. “(There, there) are none. I don’t want to see my baby die over there. Honestly, it’s better she stay here and someone else take her. She’s going to have a problem over there.”

By late Thursday, US time, things had turned ominous, the group got a message from a prominent Indonesian Christian in the US who said he had received advice from the Indonesian consulate in the US warning that those who tried to stay and were deported to Indonesia could face five years in prison upon arrival.

The threat is uncorroborated at this time.

Paul Toohey’s American Story column runs every Saturday on the News Limited iPad apps.

Most commented


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    • acotrel says:

      05:48am | 11/12/11

      If you were going bad in America , you wouldn’t want to look to the Republicans to help you !


      08:42am | 11/12/11

      Hi Paul,

      Would it make any positive & negative difference to their situation, if they were from a very different culture?  In the last few years we have bombarded by the images & the very extreme views about some Islamic Nations.  And Indonesia being one of them, I just have to say no wonder!

      However, according to the US Government Rules & Regulations, these people did happen to arrive in the USA were illegally anyway!!  I am certain that right now in the USA, a lot of Mexican families are in the very similar situation as well.  Can we make exceptions for anyone based solely on their cultural & religious backgrounds? Can we really spot our enemies based on their looks or which church do they all belong to?

      Also is this any different to how we treat the asylum seekers or the boat people arriving illegally by our shores?  Rules are meant to be broken, how about for this particular family? Best regards to your editors.

    • Paul Toohey says:

      09:48am | 11/12/11

      Hi Neslihan,

      The Christian Indonesians believe they are being targeted by ICE because they come from a majority Muslim country. But the Reverend Seth is not so sure. His belief is that the ICE people are being overly officious with this group, who are rare in the fact they actually declared themselves. Therefore, they’re easy targets for removal.

      I did point out that these Indonesians were not all emblematic asylum cases. Some - like the two Harrys - came to America and knowingly broke the rules. But more than half of them came here at a terrible time in Indonesian history and also came on tourist visas because it was the most expedient way to get out of the country.

      Technically, all of the group is in the wrong.

      As we know, most illegal overstayers in Australia come by plane, not by boat. Successive governments and the various immigration and refugee tribunals have been much tougher on boat arrivals - firstly, for political reasons, secondly, because we know who they are and are easier to track.

      The USA, however, has a much bigger problem with illegal immigration, especially in regards to the estimated 11 million illegal workers from Mexico. But both sides of US federal politics are currently questioning whether it really is such a big a problem.

      Both Democrats and Republicans know that when they enter a shop, are served in restaurant, have food prepared for them, or walk on a freshly swept floor, that there was probably a Mexican involved somewhere. Over in the New Jersey factories, to a lesser extent, you might find an illegal Indonesian.

      The emerging view in the 2012 political race is that illegal immigrant bashing is bad news, and that there needs to be a way to acknowledge that Latino families are settled, are good workers, are taxpayers and have children born here should be brought into the fold.

      Alabama has enacted a law to try and run the illegals out ... it has been disastrous. It is the businesses who employ them - and sometimes exploit them - that are complaining loudest. These workers are needed.

      People should, of course, queue in an orderly fashion and wait their turn. But that is not reality of life for desperate people.

      Any government must be concerned about who it lets in. The 9/11 hijackers show that.

      This case is a test of compassion for the US Government. I suspect that they’ll be big enough to act more favourably than ours might in a mirror case. But we’ll see.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      02:47pm | 11/12/11

      Paul, you mention boat arrivals being picked on and you are right but the difference between Australia and the US is that there is no offence committed in entering or staying in Australia without a visa and hasn’t been since the law changed in 1992.

      We pick on the so called boat arrivals to pander to the racist bogans who expect Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians and Sri lankans to stay anywhere but here and die without us being bothered.

    • Andrew says:

      09:03pm | 11/12/11

      So Marilyn, do you have the same sympathy for the iraqians who were dying under saddam, or do you care about the afghans dying under the taliban, obviously not as your happy for the taliban and saddam to stay in power.


      10:41pm | 11/12/11

      Hi Paul,

      I do appreciate all the information that you have provided & thanks by the way!  I truly hope that I have learnt something new from you.  I also would like to know,  how the USA actually copes & closes its eyes to the very fact of Mexicans arriving illegally & staying on for years in the USA performing unskilled labor?  I am also wondering if the so called employers pay any taxes at all?  These workers are entitled to any benefits like health care, which seems to be one of the biggest problems facing Americans.

      Living the culture & religion issue aside, I also would like to know the true definition of “a classic refugee”?  Because, I personally think the visas on humanitarian basis, should only be provided to people who genuinely fear persecution once they are deported back to the country of their origin.  How do we all make sure that we do the right thing?

      Once upon a time the USA welcomed almost every one from Italian, Irish, Greek, Jewish migrants to the land of Liberty, Equality & Justice!!  Why is this any different anyway?  I also want to know if the USA actually recognizes the International Laws of the European High Commission for Human Rights?  Thanks once again.  Best regards to your editors.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      02:08am | 12/12/11

      Yes Andrew you stupid prat.  But because Saddam and the taliban killed people doesn’t mean we get to do it too.

    • stephen says:

      09:01am | 11/12/11

      Wouldn’t such a family and friends, however, fail a character test because they overstayed their visa and hid from the authorities ?
      Rightfully, they would be subject to charges and prosecuted.
      But then, they could excuse themselves from such legal treatment by claiming asylum, retrospectively.

      If Indonesia threatens to imprison for 5 years those of its citizens who flee and then are sent home,  - for whatever reason -  then why is this country, (and any other country, for that matter) having any sort of relations with them, for, such a Law should not be excused because it is a local matter, but should be damned because it usurps basic human rights.

      (But then, an ‘uncorroborated threat’ doesn’t mean much, does it ?

    • Linda Houston says:

      09:09am | 11/12/11

      Stupid Yanks. Bring them here. Problem solved.

    • stephen says:

      06:39pm | 11/12/11

      If there’s a problem, why the hell should that ‘problem’ come here ?

      (You’re not Mrs. Abad, are you ?)

    • subotic says:

      08:09am | 12/12/11

      Yes, I concur, bring all of them here and let Linda Houston provide for all their needs.

      Good work Linda, I hope you succeed in providing for all these individuals. Wish I had the mansion & money like yourself to be able to offer to take on such a challenge by yourself without drawing on the Australian tax payer dollar.

      I like you philanthropist types. A lot….

    • Ryder says:

      09:39am | 12/12/11

      Oh good job Linda!

      I sure as hell do not want to see my country degraded even further so your offer to take them at your own expense for the term of their natural lives is very generous of you. Some may even say exceedingly generous.

      You were not speaking for me were you? I do not recall giving you that right.

    • marley says:

      09:26am | 11/12/11

      One of the real problems for immigration policy-makers is the public disconnect between immigration policy writ large, and individual case stories.

      People say - yes, let’s get tough on illegal immigration, let’s deport overstayers, let’s go after immigration fraud, let’s bring in skilled workers but close down on their parents migrating to join them.  All good and well.  And then, a story like this comes up and we want to make an exception because these are good people who haven’t caused any harm.  And of course we’re going to blame heartless or incompetent immigration officials for implementing the policies we told them we wanted.

      How do you write a policy which is fair and equitable, but which allows exceptions at every turn?  To whom do we apply the policy, and to whom do we allow exemptions?  And how is that fair?

      Immigration policy has to be more than a collection of individual responses to individual situations. There has to be a driving ethos to it.  And if that means that taking a tough stance against illegal migrants, is going to affect peoples’ lives, just like those in the story, well that’s the price of that policy.  And we all need to recognize it .

    • Dark Horse says:

      07:06am | 12/12/11

      Well said Marley. An ad hoc policy is no policy. These people need to return to a part of Indonesia where muslims aren’t killing and raping this week. That way they may stand a chance. Better still, they should arm themselves and fight back.

    • paul says:

      02:36pm | 12/12/11

      @ dark horse,  you do know they would be fighting back against the largest muslim population in the world?
      I have been following the religious violence for years and I remember a couple ago 3 christian school girls were beheaded on there way home.
      I think we should defiantly take them in, whether you like it or not we are a christian nation, and still have a duty to fellow christians.
      I doubt the greens or left would allow it though. Theren not muslim

    • franklin says:

      04:48pm | 12/12/11

      Visitors have an obligation to obey all of the laws of America when they are in that country. It is nonsensensical that they pick and choose which aspects of the law they obey or do not obey.

    • gobsmack says:

      09:32am | 11/12/11

      I’m a bit confused here.  The article states:
      “The program, only recently disbanded, required Muslim non-citizen men aged between 18 and 65 to register with the Department of Homeland Security and be fingerprinted, photographed and interviewed.”
      Aren’t the subjects of the article Christian?
      Also, how do you get a social security number on a tourist visa?

    • Paul Toohey says:

      10:16am | 11/12/11


      1. They’re Christians from a majority Muslim country (ie, NSEERS didn’t distinguish on religion, but nationality).

      2. How do you get a social security number? I asked the same question. Pre 9/11, you just asked for one and got it. Or you made one up. Officials don’t ask to see your social security ID - they just want the number. They’re more interested in photo ID. Once you’ve got the SS number, you get a driver’s licence. And you’re home.

    • An American says:

      12:04pm | 11/12/11

      Paul, you are mistaken regarding getting a social security number.
      You were never able to just rock up and get a social security number.
      From the U.S. social security website information on getting a social security card:
      For a U.S. Born adult or child over 12
      You must first obtain the original documents proving; U.S citizenship, your age and your identity.
      Important - Anyone age 12 or older requesting an original Social Security number card MUST be interviewed by Social Security.
      All documents must be either originals or copies certified by the issuing agency. We cannot accept photocopies or notarized copies of documents. We also cannot accept a receipt showing you applied for the document.
      What original documents do I need?
      Citizenship- We can accept only certain documents as proof of U.S. citizenship. These include a U.S. birth certificate or a U.S. passport. 
      Age - If you have or can obtain a U.S.-State-Issued birth certificate that recorded your birth before age 5, you must submit it. If not, we can consider other documents, such as your passport, to prove your age.
      Identity - We can accept only certain documents as proof of identity. An acceptable document must be current (not expired) and show your name, identifying information (date of birth or age) and preferably a recent photograph. For example, as proof of identity Social Security must see your U.S. driver’s license; State-issued nondriver identification card; or U.S. passport.

    • Brian says:

      07:03pm | 11/12/11

      While I won’t claim knowledge I don’t have, An American, an excerpt from the current website doesn’t say anything about previous practice.

    • marley says:

      03:44pm | 12/12/11

      It is possible for a non-citizen to get an American Social Security number.  You have to have proof that you are a legal permanent resident, or that you have a work permit, or that you have a visitor visa which allows you to work.  Now I don’t know how well integrated their systems are, and whether it would be possible to produce a forged document in order to get a number, or whether it would be easier just to obtain a forged SSN card.  But you don’t have to be a citizen to get a genuine one, that much is clear.

    • Destry says:

      10:21am | 11/12/11

      Ultimately, the moral issue here is not American immigration policy but the actions of muslim of Muslim extremists who are tolerated, if not supported, by the Indonesian Government.  The jackals murder whole villages of Christians and vow to eliminate every Christan adult, child and baby.  The press has no problem ignoring what happens in Celebes, the Maluku Islands, West Irian and elsewhere in favour of celebrity “news”. We give Indonesia military assistance and they could stand on Irian shores and piss into Cape York.  If you are looking for significance in this article, it is that Australia should be taking thousands of endangered Indonesian Christan refugees—and no economic refugees arriving in boats.  Why should the Christrians have to try to get into a far country like the USA when we live down the road from them? Tjhe other 50% of our refugee intake should be Karen refugees from Burma; there’s enough of them imprisoned in Malaysian camps.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      02:54pm | 11/12/11

      Destry, there is no such thing as an economic refugee.

      A refugee is a person outside their own country who have a well founded fear of persecution.

      Do dry up.

      The ones who are frauds are the thousands of students who fail their courses and then apply for asylum but then the media never tell us about them.

    • marley says:

      04:09pm | 11/12/11

      @Marilyn Shepherd - true, there is no such thing as an economic refugee.  There are, however, certainly such things as illegal economic migrants.  And some of them come by boat.

      As for the thousands of student overstayers making asylum claims - so what you’re saying is that an asylum seeker who arrives by boat is a refugee and an asylum seeker who arrives by plane cannot be.  Perhaps you should actually familiarize yourself with the Convention you’re always quoting - because it says that an asylum seeker has a right to seek protection, no matter how he got to Australia.  Are you going to deny these people the right to make a request for protection?

      Pretty hypocritical of you, isn’t it?

    • acotrel says:

      09:01pm | 11/12/11

      ‘There are, however, certainly such things as illegal economic migrants.  ‘
      I just love all these things about which you are so certain ! Talk about dogmatic ! ! !

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      02:10am | 12/12/11

      If there is no such thing as an economic refugee how the hell can there be illegal economic refugees?

      Honestly the stupid pills have been swallowed well and truly today.

    • marley says:

      07:09am | 12/12/11

      @Marilyn - wasn’t me who swallowed the stupid pills.  Read it again:  “economic refugees” do not exist;  “illegal economic migrants/migrants” do.

      And I suggest you read the article to which I’ve referred acotrel.

    • Jase says:

      01:35pm | 11/12/11

      Any person overstaying a visa, is an illegal immigrant, it does not matter how much motivation or sympathy vote they go for, they are breaking the law.

      An immigrant overstaying a visa and working illegally is no different to an Australian citizen committing murder but justifying it because they were hard done by at some point.

      Swap the situation and look it from this perspective, as an Australian you are looking for asylum overseas and decide to move to Indonesia illegally. Oh how I would like to see that outcome…. You would either be deported immediately or shot.

    • the_pseudonym says:

      02:15pm | 11/12/11

      More than likely you are right Jase, Indonesia isn’t governed by hugtards with an agenda of unicorns and free lollypops for one and all.

    • Brian says:

      07:09pm | 11/12/11

      Interesting assumptions there. Apparently overstaying a visa means you’ve immigrated, regardless of duration. Of course, the fact that if you apply for asylum then you are by definition NOT an illegal immigrant until that asylum is denied is rather inconvenient, isn’t it?

      And Indonesia, although hardly to be lauded for its human rights record, has many, many asylum seekers who have not been deported or shot. Sure, their situation isn’t great, but neither of your claims are founded.

    • subotic says:

      08:30am | 12/12/11

      @Jase, what in the hell would possess me to pick Indonesia as a place to move for asylum? Hell, I wouldn’t even book a flight that has a stop-over in Indonesia, let alone purposely go there to escape anything.

      Rather die fighting on my feet here than die begging on my knees in Indonesia.

    • stephen says:

      07:01pm | 11/12/11

      We have to be very careful about boat arrivals.
      When people like Marilyn up top says that we are part of Asia, what she should say is that we are surrounded by Asia.
      We are not Asian, and so many come here by boat because we are not Asian.
      (I’m not talking about white versus oriental, or any such primitive comparisons, but that from the influx of information and people see how others live, it so happens that many people do not want to live in their own cultures.)

      But we have, so far , a good and controlled mix of different types of people here and they enjoy what Australia is good for.
      The catastrophe would be if we were pressured by an influx of illegal arrivals which we’d have to accommodate, and rioting and misbehaviours continued so that there was a subsequent reaction to all others in our communities, here as immigrants, who may be under suspicion as unlike the typical white-boy.
      This would be the tragedy, and is, under the circumstances, quite possible an outcome for this government’s bungling.
      They could bloody well ruin everything if they do not make changes.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      02:12am | 12/12/11

      Who said we are part of Asia?  We are in fact in the Asia Pacific region and unless the island is dragged off to other parts of the world this is where we stay.

    • Greg says:

      09:33pm | 11/12/11

      What exactly is the point of this story?

      Some illegal immigrants have been caught out and now wnat to be exempted from US law, and receive special treatment.

      They don’t evoke much sympathy either, when they promise to abandon their anchor babies if they are treated according to the law. Nice.

      Why is it that whenever they report a simple case of right versus wrong, journalists always take sides with the latter?

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      02:13am | 12/12/11

      Staying in another country is hardly the world’s greatest crime.

      Do you get off on being ridiculous?

    • Greg says:

      05:29pm | 12/12/11

      They are not just “staying in another country”. You are being ridiculous, as always. They are deliberately breaking its laws.

      They have illegally obtained social security numbers, so that they can illegally claim social security benefits that they are not entitled to.

      They are placing additional burdens on the US health system, and they are trying to make the more gullible taxpayers feel guilty about it by threatening to abandon their anchor babies.

      They are parasites on society, looking to suck from the juiciest host.

      But no matter how unethical their behaviour is, no matter how many laws they break, no matter how many boats they sabotage, no matter how much identity fraud they perform or how many children’s lives that they place in danger, the parasites can always rely on the infamous Marilyn for support.

    • Ryder says:

      06:32am | 12/12/11

      So in summary:

      1. Enter country on a tourist visa with every intention of overstaying said visa. No bloody wonder you get the third degree when entering the US if this is what people do.

      2. Acquire a fraudulent social security number and with no paperwork to support it, and pretend you are a US citizen.

      3. Have children that you can later use as leverage to obtain actual legitimate citizenship maybe.

      4. When asked to leave, complain and threaten to abandon your children.
      5. Apply to a sucker country like Australia where you will be accepted as a full citizen so you can further drain any of quality of life and amenity for existing citizens and degrade their way of life by cheapening everything with your third world standards.
      “18 bucks an hour! I would do the job for half that.”
      “Asbestos, who cares, I will demolish that house for 5k cash.”
      “Tax is for dumb aussies, my small business is cash only!”
      “Got my elderly parents coming here to live next year, cost me nothing for healthcare for them here.”

      Yes, SE Asia is such a terrific place isn’t it? Shame even the locals do not want to live there given the chance to get out.

    • Aidan kelly says:

      10:38am | 12/12/11

      Get over it “youse guys” - people have been hopping countries for ever - they will continue to do so - countries need to allow this to happen - what is now happening is that the matter has become political for a number of reasons as explained by paul’s article and in every australian newspaper this weekend—further the process has been captured by the administration - so it becomes a game of officious snakes and ladders - what the story tells us is that individuals then either get lucky and get in or not - but under- lying that is the human story about escaping a brutal regime to ironically get shut canned by a bunch of xenophobic westerners - it is partly their choice - a voluntary assumption of risk! - will the same criteria apply to itinerant Europeans who have started running from the euro collapse - I am grateful the debate is happening - the policy makers need to earn their money on this - yes work on it - and I think that the hung parliament will deliver the best policy - and for all those who react in the negative because they think a busted arse refuge will take their job or cost them something else - I want to strengthen the deportation laws just for you - no matter when or where you came from - xx

    • marley says:

      12:58pm | 12/12/11

      @Aidan Kelly - oh, I quite agree, people have been on the move forever, and countries do need to let it happen. I believe they call it having an immigration program.

    • Mark says:

      06:00pm | 18/12/11

      Wth unemployment and a failing economy (apart from tearing up more enviroment to support more people) why would you want more people. To be sustainable one of the first and most important issues is to keep your population size under control, race, creed, colour makes no difference the issue is still the same.


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