On the brink of condemning two women to mutilation

Eric says:

09:19am | 05/10/09

“The reasons for such cultural practices seem impossible to understand”

Indeed, if you can write a whole story about female genital mutilation without mentioning the words “Islam” or “tribal culture”, you will find it difficult to understand.

Multiculturalism means placing such practices on the same level as our own culture. Who are we to say our morals are superior to Islamic Africans? That would be racist, wouldn’t it?

Let’s make it clear that some cultures are better than others, and some cultural practices are unacceptable to a civilised society.

Nicholas James says:

10:00am | 05/10/09

Tell me where I sign up to support their cause…

John A Neve says:

10:22am | 05/10/09

Vanessa,
This is complex issue and raises many questions. This is a sovereign country and their laws,are their laws, who are we to question them? Then you have the fact that these women were born there as were their mothers, the fact that they are alive proves their mothers and the mothers of thousands of other Kenyans have not died.

Then we have the visa situation, Kenya and other countries will be guarded about letting others come here if we don’t honour our responsibilties to international travel. Do we accept every one who has a tale of woe? There are countries thet remove hands for stealing, circumcise little boys, have the death penalty for murder etc. Which brings me back to, who are we to judge?

I find the practice obscene, but am I right?

Sloth says:

11:40am | 05/10/09

John; yes you are absolutely right to find the practice obscene. For too long people have assumed that embracing multiculturalism necessarily means embracing moral relativism. It means nothing of the sort.

Simply because a practice is culturally acceptable does not make it right. Western culture once practiced slavery, and we can rightly condemn the practice as barbaric and inhuman, regardless of the fact that it was widespread. The mere historical fact that slavery happened says nothing about whether it is right. Similarly with FGM - it is descriptively true that FGM happens. This says nothing about the morality of the practice. It is abhorrent and unjusitifiable. Anyone who disagrees is simply - and demonstrably - wrong.

Somewhere along the way we seem to have started to assume that making any moral judgement about other cultures is verboten. This is nonsense; while we should be culturally senstive, and we should seek to understand cultures before judging them, we need to recognise that cultures can and do get morality wrong. Tolerance requires that we seek understanding and not shoot from the hip, condemning practices we don’t understand. It doesn’t require that we stand idly by and refuse to condemn a practise that is plainly and self-evidently evil.

Western culture has gotten moral judgements wrong in the past, and doubtless will in the future. We need to be open to making moral judgements so that we can spot these problems and fix them. Similarly cultures which allow or even require FGM have got it badly wrong. The systematic opression of any group is and should be abhorrent to any rational person. And we should not be shy about condemning such moral failings when we see them.

Dan says:

12:06pm | 05/10/09

Eric, female genital mutilation has nothing to do with Islam, is condemned by Islam, is also practiced by certain non-Muslim groups in Africa and predates Islam. But, you wouldn’t know that since you’re clearly too busy attacking Islam to do any research. You are not a glowing example of western civilisation, and as for morals, don’t group your so-called morality in with others who clearly care more for these women than you do, who are only using these women to vent your anti-Islamic bias!

Also Multiculturalism does NOT mean accepting all practices.

Jade says:

12:07pm | 05/10/09

I feel sorry for these girls.  But if we let them stay then thousands more will expect to be able to stay as well.  We are already to over-populated with the current infrastructure and resources.  Like we can handle anymore legal and illegal migrants.

KO says:

12:26pm | 05/10/09

The fact that visa criteria doesn’t include genital mutilation or honour killings is absurd. We’ll protect people who are persecuted for being a certain religion, race, nationality or having particular political beliefs, but we won’t protect women who are in danger of having their basic human rights violated?

Fitzy says:

12:31pm | 05/10/09

Jade, you should read some statistics about immigration. Australia is so far behind other countries in terms of numbers of immigrants/refugees – other countries that have fewer resources, less money and less physical space. Whatever your view, there comes a point – especially with a story like this – when we have to ask ourselves how can we NOT let these people stay? These women are daughters, sisters, friends. Let’s not let that be overshadowed by selfishness and complacency.

Adam says:

12:41pm | 05/10/09

The problem is, that if we accept these two, are we not suggesting that every single female from Kenya that makes it to Australia gets a visa?
Or should we allow every single thief from Saudi Arabia too, so we may protect them from having their hands removed?

Where would you draw the line, Vanessa, at protecting people from their own culture, people and homelands?

Sloth says:

12:45pm | 05/10/09

Jade: Australia took in 158,021 migrants last year (net immigration, when you take into account emmigration, was 77,000 persons). Next year the Department of Immigration is looking to expant to 168,700 migrants. That is, the government is actively seeking to increase the number of migrants settling in this country. This information is all available on the Department’s website, http://www.immi.gov.au. The 09-10 Humanitarian migration planned figures run to 13,750.

By contrast, Australia receives a tiny amount of so-called illegal immigrants (both compared to other nations, like the UK, Italy and the US, and on a per-capita basis). In 2008, 133 people arrived by boat, as so-called illegal immigrants. Since the Rudd government has taken power, only 2 people who arrived by boat have been found not to be genuine refugees. Even at its highest level - 3000 arrivals, which occured in 1999 under the Howard Government - arrivals by boat have been a fraction of Australia’s the number of Humanitarian visas Australia expects to give out.

Even if, “thousands more ... expect to be able to stay as well”, Australia will still be comfortably within the number of humanitarian visas we expect and intend to issue. Though, expecting ‘thousands’ of immigrants from Africa seeking to avoid FGM is vastly overstating the position.

Jade, like me, you doubtless get very frustrated when politicians and the media distort the truth, or fail to give a clear picture of what’s happening. I suspect that you’ve - probably unwittingly - picked up a very skewed and incorrect picture of Australia’s migration patterns from people with a vested interest in keep you, and others, ignorant of the truth. But all these statistics are out there, accessible to you, and I strongly encourage you to do your own research on this matter. You might find that what you’re being told and the truth are two very different things indeed…

Jade says:

01:44pm | 05/10/09

Sloth…... Where i am seeing it from is that currently in Australia (well brisbane in the most part….. not to sure about other cities) we have people and families living on the streets, in the NT and Central QLD aboridginal children are being starved, raped etc, we have a rental crisis, water crisis and people are loosing there jobs and are unable to find new ones.  How can we possibly support more people from other countries taking up reasources that us aussies need more. Yes they live in a horrible place where horendous things happen to all of the people that live there.  But we can’t save everyone.  If we keep on going one day we will all be packed in like sardines. We should start in our own back yard and stop the terrible things that happen to people here first.  Its like if you feed a cat once it will keep on coming back for more.  if we help these two it will be seen as an open door for more to come to our so called “free” country.

Gibbot says:

02:08pm | 05/10/09

Had Sydney not been placed under siege by that ridiculously wasteful recruitment junket last year we would not be in this predicament. Having said that, it happened, and these girls are here. Considering the manner in which they came, it would be hypocrisy in the extreme to send them back to face mutilation - or worse. We have a duty to act in accordance with our conscience, and I personally could not live with myself if I were the person to rubber stamp their removal.

Anything else I’d have to say on the matter Sloth has just said very eloquently.

Vanessa says:

02:17pm | 05/10/09

The point is these women are asking for our help! Our law wishes to protect crimes like this, but at the moment it doesn’t.

Both of them have dealt with genital mutilation directly. Grace’s mother was killed for refusing mutilation and Teresia has been ostracized for refusing it.

I understand that barbaric customs exist in our ‘world’. Yet, I don’t understand the reasons - simply, because there is a difference between cultural/religious practices and persecutions against gender which equate to crimes against humanity.

We also must remember that FGM only happens to women because they are women.

They live in our country now and we cannot send them back to be tortured.

We must find a way to help protect people escaping from such persecutions. History is made up of nations opening their arms to one another - why do we stop now?

Regardless our population is growing fast, our infrastructure must keep up with this, which is a completely separate issue and responsiblity.

Sloth says:

02:29pm | 05/10/09

Jade: Certainly those are all problems. Queensland - like everywhere else in Australia - does have problems with unemployment, homelessness, housing affordability and the plight of indigenous children. No-one could deny that for a second.

However, if we step back and take a broader view of the situation, we can see that the root cause of most of these problems (certainly unemployment and housing affordability) is economics. Indeed, even the other problems you mention (Indigenous welfare, homelessness, which is often linked to a lack of availability of mental health servics) are assisted by a strong economy. That is, the government is receiving more tax, and has more resources to allocate to these problem areas.

What kills economic growth absolutely stone dead is a decline in population and an aging population. This is very well recorded, and one of principle reasons why the government of all colours encourage population growth. Recall Peter Costello’s desire to see every couple have 3 children, one for Mum, one for Dad and one for the Country. It’s also the driving force behind the baby bonuses; encouraging people to have more children to strengthen the economy and combat an aging population.

Australia has always had defciencies in population growth and has always relied on immigration to ensure strong growth. That is why the Department of Immigration is looking to intake more migrants in 09-10 than it did in 08-09, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

I agree that the problems you have outlined are serious concerns. But the important point to remember is that if we slow, or indeed stop, migration our economy will feel the pinch and those problems will get worse, not better. Now we can have a discussion as to what proportion of migrants should be skilled vs. unskilled, what proportion should be humanitarian or otherwise, but the general principle is that - as it has throughout its history - Australia needs migrants. Indeed, we rely on them, and always have.

As for allocation of resources like water, that’s an ongoing planning issue for governments, but I can’t find a single credible source that suggests we’re already beyond what the country can support. This of course will be an issue for ongoing debate, but certainly we still seem to be well within what the country is capable of sustaining. However, that’s a seperate issue, and requires a far more detailed discussion.

Again, I appreciate you concerns, but given the actual patterns of migration, Australia’s current policy of increasing our level of migration, and the fact that economic growth is linked to population growth, I don’t think that the concerns you raise will be aggravated by allowing women who might be subject to FGM to be considered a vulnerable group for the purpose of the Migration Act.

pc says:

03:20pm | 05/10/09

Sloth, contrary to their name, has provided a detailed and energetic argument to Jade, who I am absolutely sure is going to do her best to ignore it.

And Dan - you are right. Genital mutilation has nothing to do with Islam as Eric so desperately wants to believe. It is about power - and men controlling women.  But dan I have noticed that you have the same tendency to label people as racists or alike, just as Eric does. Calling someone a racist does not challenge racism.

Eric says:

03:23pm | 05/10/09

Vanessa: “We also must remember that FGM only happens to women because they are women. “

Circumcision is a form of genital mutilation that only happens to men because they are men.

Why make this a gender issue? All people deserve the right to be free from unwanted mutilation.

John B says:

04:38pm | 05/10/09

John Neve…do you have any damn idea what is involved in female circumcision? You may find it obscene, but obviously not “obscene” enough to thin that these women should be spared this primitive, useless (well, it’s “use” is to control women), religious practice done by men who love to be part of a primitive religion which hates women and sees them as no better than dogs. I don’t want us to take refugees simply because they think they can get something financial out of our country, but if they are escaping the sorts of things which we know for a fact go on there, then let them all in.

Vanessa says:

06:04pm | 05/10/09

ERIC -  It’s an issue about human rights, survival and yes, ultimately it’s a persecution against females. There is a reason the UN changed their terminology from female circumsion to female genital mutilation… as the two aren’t comparable. Everyone does “deserve the right to be free from unwanted mutilation” (it’s called mutilation because it is UNWANTED ) but today it happens to be about women.

John A Neve says:

06:35pm | 05/10/09

John B,
I am in awe of you, to know any religion but yours is “primitive’, to know Kenyan men treat their women like dogs, to know they are “primitive”. Yes, I am in awe of you. I had thought of bowing to you but you cannot see me or can you?
Based on your post, you are just as primitive as those you despise.

John B says:

07:56pm | 05/10/09

I rather think there is a slight difference between thieves being punished by removing thier hand, and women being “punished” in a horrifying way for simply being women.

Biff says:

08:21pm | 05/10/09

Vanessa; all cultures are equal. Remember that? That’s the PC drivel that was used to cow us in case we pointed out the shortcomings in other cultures and thought ours was superior. All you are doing now is confirming how people like you are to try to stifle free speech.

Liz says:

08:17am | 06/10/09

How can a woman ‘embellish the threat of genital mutilation’? In many countries it is real for all women and a cultural practice.Give these young women protection and support.It’s amazing they have escaped they knife for this long!

SD says:

08:57am | 06/10/09

On cultures:
- Moral relativism is a poor philosophical ideology. The moral relativist says “there are no moral truths – all cultures have their own merits”. This statement is non-relativist and the argument fails before it even gets off the ground.

On refugees:
- Any person who will be, or has a well-founded fear that they will be persecuted on group membership (race, gender) can claim refugee status under the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees.

- The Convention has been carefully formulated and has been deliberately left vague to be as operationally broad as possible.

- If the women [in question] are indeed refugees, then Australia has a legal obligation under the UN Convention to offer them asylum. Vanessa: I’m not sure what your issue is with the current state of the UN Convention. The Convention certainly has the scope to cover these women.

- The Minister, in deciding that the women in question should be sent home, must have reasonable evidence that the claimed persecution will not eventuate.

- You can read about Australia’s specific policies and stance here: http://www.humanrights.gov.au/human_rights/immigration/asylum_seekers.html

- Perhaps the relevant question is: on what evidence did the minister make his decision?

On economics and growth:
Whilst quality of life is closely tied to GDP, and GDP is correlated with population in SOME countries, as a general rule, there are other much more important factors to consider. For example, technology is usually taken as a multiplier when assessing a country’s productivity function. This implies that productivity, hence output, hence GDP and hence quality of life can in fact increase without population growth.

Why does growth, in particular economic growth, have to be the dominant philosophy? Indeed, it does not. What has worked well in the past is becoming increasingly untenable; the world population dictates that a growth based philosophy is unsustainable.

So whilst I disagree with those that attempt to advocate increased immigration on an economic basis, I am in fact inherently supportive of immigration per se. I support refugees (economic or not) in totality and believe that we should certainly increase our net migrant intake. Partly in view of justice and partly for the somewhat selfish reason that it enables me to more easily intermingle with others of different backgrounds, with different stories, opinions, skills and interests.

KM says:

09:34am | 06/10/09

Eric asking someone ‘why make it a gender issue’ ??
hahaha - Now I’ve seen it all on here!

Meanwhile, this practice is absolutely horrific. Congrats to Vanessa for raising awareness for the plight of these two girls with this article, and so many others like them. People the world over should be working together to condemn this type of violation.

Germaine says:

09:43am | 06/10/09

Genital mutilation is an obscenity which even the most ardent progressive relativist apologists for multiculturalism must abhor, so saying “it’s part of their culture” is no option.

But the highly emotional tale about these two women does raise some questions of detail.  At the age of 21, why are they suddenly at threat of FGM?  The “cultures” which impose this barbarism carry it out on young children, so how did these two women escape such “certain” mutilation much earlier in their lives?

And if they were Roman Catholic pilgrims to World Youth Day, why are they said to be in danger of suffering from a Moslem practice?  They may well not want to go back to Kenya, but there seems to have been some massaging of the facts in this report.

Dan says:

01:12pm | 06/10/09

In answer to your last question, Germaine, it’s not a Muslim practice. There is nothing in Islam that condones this practise, and in fact it pre-dated Islam. It’s also not practised by non-Muslim groups as well. Ultimately, it’s about power, it’s about notions of sexual purity and there is no recognised religion, whether it be Islam, or Christianity or Judaism etc… which supports it.

marley says:

01:23pm | 06/10/09

I’m appalled by genital mutilation, of course.  But so far as I know, genital mutilation is conducted when the girls hit puberty, not when they’re in their twenties.  And would good Catholic girls from good Catholic families be subject to genital mutilation anyway?  I’m not so sure.

Mike_The_Fisherman says:

02:51am | 07/10/09

Sure the practice is archaic, and in most cases unwanted.
I say in most cases because there are some of these people that willingly go through with this mutilation to maintain family honour.
It still doesn’t excuse it.
I think we need to forget that this is happening to women.
We are all people - and this is happening to other PEOPLE.
The very fact that most of you keep harping on about the differences between men and women and that this is happening to women is one of the core reasons that there is still a separation of the sexes.

Stop making this about women, and the “power” men hold over them. Because if you keep making this, and every other issue, about the differences between men and women; it will always be the thing that keeps us on separate footings.

People used to say black people were animals. No matter how exceptional they were, or how gifted. They could never rise further than the shackles we kept them in.
It wasn’t until we started accepting them as the humans they always were that we saw just how inhuman we were ourselves.

If the women of the world want equality - stop being women and just accept that your human.

Bee says:

01:12pm | 07/10/09

Mike_The_Fisherman - you have completley misconstrued the topic and managed to branch off into unsophisticated dribble - We are all people??? - yes you are right - but are we all HUMAN??? Humanity is the key topic under discussion - This debate has little to do with world inequality on the basis of gender - We are not talking about the fact that a male CEO has a higher pay package…..!!!  This debate relates to how we as Humans (not just people) treat other HUMANS regardless of race, sex, religion! It’s your choice to turn your back on an issue but to suggest we all “forget” it, is by far the most atrociously insensitive and selfish proposal I have ever heard. Are YOU Human???? Do you have any idea what indecencies occur around the world regarldess of gender? Perhaps if we just ignore everything - it will all miraculously go away…….

Catherine Mwangi says:

11:21pm | 02/04/10

GRACE AND TERESIA ISSUE.
I have been following this Teresia and Grace issue with keenness and I am surprised at the length some people can g just so that they can leave their own countries and go live in foreign countries. My name is Cathy,I travelled to Australia in 2008 and eight to attend the World Youth Day with Grace and TERESIA. We were among other Youth. The Charplain who organized the trip for us Fr. Peter was very clear from the word go that not everybody who was travelling was with the intention of travelling and coming back to Kenya. Many young Kenyans have immigrated illegally after attending the world Youth Day since Canada and Germany so this story of Grace and Teresia is not news to me!
What is amazing is the way they have gone to the length to lie that they will be exposed to mutilation if they were to return back to Kenya. The guy who facilitated the two to travel to Australia Fr. Ndikaru wa Teeresia…note the Teresia surname according to the Kikuyu culture from which the two come men use their Mother’s names as surname if they were raised by Single mothers, is notorious for organizing such trips for young people….in Canada he organized for many youth to immigrate illegally.

They cite mutilation as a way for them not to return, what I know is that they want to survive at the mercy of Australian tax payers money s that they get taken to school and come back to Kenya to brag about their learned stature. I am appealing to you Australians, you were my hosts during the World Youth Day and I loved your country but since my promise was to attend the WYD and come back, I did just that. Don’t allow your sympathetic nerve to be deceived by people who used a very beautiful event to immigrate illegally. In as much as some communities are still practicing the practice, not all women in this region are exposed to the same. It took us three flights to get to Australia, people who are primitive and are still practicing such can not afford a 3 flight ticket to get as far as Aussie. Hold your guns investigate stuff and ask around before you load yourselves with responsibilities that will hurt your country as Tax payers. These girls are the laughing stock here daily as people know that they are trying at all costs to remain in Australia for all the wrong reasons. It is so embarrassing that a Catholic Priest is behind all this deception. Before you accuse each other please get facts right. You can contact Fr. Peter the one who organized the group that we came with and he will be in a position to explain the truth. I am tired of hearing this lie over and over and keeping quiet means that before God am condoning it. Deport the girls and move on with your lives and give peace to your Immigration Minister. Call the Catholic Church of Nairobi Kenya Holy Family Basilica and inquire. Please. I came back and I am safe and sound. Don’t base your judgement on hearsay, also hear from the other side after all every story has two sides to it.