Imagine you are a woman in your mid-twenties with the world at your feet. You believe that as a grown woman in Australia, you have the right to express yourself emotionally and sexually.

Poor petal probably needs Gail Dines to come and rescue her. Or not. Photo: Supplied

Now imagine that you are hounded and berated for your honesty. You’re constantly insulted for being yourself and standing on your own two feet. Your chosen career is the catalyst for threats and bullying; you are subjected to abuse and scathing remarks.

Whether you want to believe it or not, this is the reality many women - including those in the sex industry - face today. And sadly enough the attacks are not solely from men. A lot of the time they are from women - with most of it derived from outdated feminist views.

I know a lot of women (and men) in the fetish and sex industry. I chose to be a fetish model, blogger and a sub to a mistress, and I find it liberating and gratifying. I use it as a form of expression.

However my aim over the past six years as a blogger to help women feel liberated and confident has been knocked down many times by some who appear jealous or angry because they think taking your clothes off for the camera is a form of exploitation.

Social media platforms support women in the adult industry, paving the way for more acceptance, even creating career aspirations for younger women who want to earn good money while feeling liberated.

However, there is still a stigma attached - a girl who wants to take her clothes off and dance around a pole for money must be an attention-seeking slut.

Anti-pornography feminists believe that women who participate in pornography are sexual objects purely there to be abused and controlled by men. They also believe those who participate are being degraded and exploited. This also appears to attach a strong stigma to escorts, strippers, pornographic models and participating sexual slaves.

But have many people from the industry been given the opportunity to stand up and give perspective on their own experiences?

I spoke with Penthouse Pet Ashlee Adams on the issue to get a bit more insight from the perspective of a woman who is fierce, independent, and headstrong. Not to mention that, just like many of us in the younger generation, she also thinks feminism is becoming outdated.

Here’s some common assumptions - and the facts:

Assumption: All women who work in the sex industry do so as a last resort due to lack of skills, or are forced to as a pawn in a man’s money making scheme.

Fact: There are a lot of strippers out there who take up the profession due to the money, flexibility, feeling gratified and having complete financial freedom.

Assumption: All women who strip or use their bodies for financial gain are being degraded, victimised and exploited.

Fact: There are women (and men) in the industry who believe that nobody can degrade you unless you let them. There are women and men who will try to degrade you but at the end of the day it is a reflection of someone else’s bad character, not the workers.

Assumption: All women in the sex industry are uneducated, slutty, drug-affected sluts with no self respect.

Fact: It’s a social stigma and just that, an unfair assumption that puts someone else down purely because of their personal choice of how to make money. To quote Ashlee Adams:

I’m normal and happy and not some emotionally damaged whore looking for my next bag of meth.

Assumption: The adult entertainment industry breeds misogynists.

Fact: If anything, it can breed women who hate men and those who suggest the adult industry breeds misogynists are somewhat ignorant and narrow minded. Ashlee says:

In my time I’ve encountered a lot of misogynistic behaviour at work, but I genuinely believe that those men hated women long before they watched porn for the first time or paid a woman to get naked - the strip club just gives them an outlet for them that in their mind seems more acceptable than saying something to a woman in the street.

Society believes women who are sexually promiscuous or choose to work in the adult industry were abused when they were younger, have no self-esteem or have deep mental issues.

You’d think in 2011, after all of the lessons learnt in the past few decades, that this stereotype would be broken down and that pro-choice in women would be far more accepted than it was back in the 70s and 80s.

How is that people still feel they have the right to push their beliefs on another person by telling them how they should feel about their own body and sexuality?

The assumption that a woman has been ‘raped’ (as some radical anti-adult industry feminists put it) because she is promiscuous and likes to take her clothes off is not only narrow minded, but offensive to women working in the industry who are just like the average person you would see in your local supermarket, but there are plenty of women out there who are quick to judge these women.

Just yesterday, I was labelled a fat and ugly whore, among other derogatory names, by a radical feminist on Twitter because I said that Germaine Greer’s views on the sex industry were outdated. There is also a huge assumption that with my own personal fan base for my modelling and my views on sex that my male followers are dogs on a leash that just want to disrespect me.

If anything, my male fans are respectful, encouraging and are genuinely interested in what I have to say and this is the same for Ashlee and every other stripper, nude model, escort and pornographic actress I know. On occasion I do receive the inappropriate comment - but I really do believe it comes down to educating people.

What I want to know is, why do young women allow these types of opinions to further represent us? I admit first hand that we would not be where we are today if it weren’t for feminism, and it is still very important in this day and age - however, many of us feel some of these views being put out there to represent all women are becoming more and more outdated with radical influences from the echelons of high society.

If these people have such respect for all women, then why do they resort to slut shaming, name calling, and personal attacks? Instead of putting someone else down and trying to censor people, we should be working together to ensure that people of all ages, shapes, sizes and genders are educated and respectful to one another.

The world will never evolve if there is no respect for individuals’ choices.

Follow Vivica on Twitter, Facebook, or Tumblr.

279 comments

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    • Erick says:

      06:10am | 15/09/11

      Very good article. I’ve always considered it odd that feminists think men who like to look at sexy women are somehow being “misogynistic”. It’s rather the opposite of misogyny - why would you want to see nude pictures of someone you hate?

      As for exploitation, it makes some sense to consider the sex industry as exploitation of men’s needs for financial gain. Just as the food industry exploits people’s hunger for financial gain - the “exploitation” is all in the perception.

      Feminism has men as its main targets, but it ultimately harms women as well.

    • Tina says:

      07:44am | 15/09/11

      It is certainly true that the sex industry targets men, just like McDonalds and Cadbury target people that like to eat.

      I think though that as you say it can most likely harm women as well.

      This is a very nice article and thumps up if you like what you do. But if you pick a job that is not respected by most people in our society and then whinge about it then sorry but suck it up honey. You had the choice to be an accountant instead. (this is obvioulsy not referring to forced sex work)

    • John says:

      07:59am | 15/09/11

      Feminism is a Marxist ideology, created with the purpose to divide the western man and the western woman from one another in order to further Marxist interests.

    • Sarah says:

      09:05am | 15/09/11

      @Erick.

      Great comment Erick!

    • Brendan says:

      09:05am | 15/09/11

      Good to see John has cranked up the crazy early today and has throw out a challenge to the rest of us:

      “Feminist are marxists” - that probably will take a little bit of beating, but I think there are people here up to the task.

    • andye says:

      09:49am | 15/09/11

      @Erick - in my experience, there are lots of young sexually liberated women who consider themselves feminists. Your tenured university feminist is as likely to be polyamourous and kinky as she is to hold the views being challenged in this article.

      So I think it is a mistake to just say “feminists”. Different feminists hold opposing views on this issue.

    • gra gra says:

      10:38am | 15/09/11

      Erich, are you saying you wouldn’t like to see nude pictures of, (in a group) John Howard, Bronwyn Bishop, Wilson Tuckey, Joe Hockey, et al?
      You’re wierd, you are,

    • Erick says:

      10:40am | 15/09/11

      @andye - I didn’t say “feminists”, I said “feminism”.

      Feminists are a category of people, and they vary widely. Feminism is an ideology, and while it has variations, they are all based on blaming and disempowering men, while promoting women. Feminism itself is inherently sexist and harmful, regardless of what individual feminists may say or do.

    • Margot says:

      10:52am | 15/09/11

      On this I agree with you Erick.
      Women are the biggest perpetrators of abuse towards other women and heaven help you if you’re sexually liberated and actually enjoy men.I have known this first hand(like alot of women) and all I can see is that I don’t conform to “female” interests or activities and this makes me a target.Admittedly I have suffered some horrid things at the hands of men too but theses incidences have been few and far between.
      I am grateful to the feminist movement, lord knows having the vote is great but parts of the movement have become antiquated.I’ve never understood how a feminist (I don’t count myself as one because they have done such a fantastic job that I’ve never had to be) can scream about women being free to do what they please so long as it’s not x,y and z.Whats the point of trying to remove social shackles only to replace them with your own?

    • Kate says:

      03:38pm | 15/09/11

      @Erick - I reckon they say ‘misogyny’ to cover up the truth - they’re jealous. Heterosexual men, whether single or attached, are likely to check out attractive women and there’s nothing wrong with that. I do have a problem with cheating, but I don’t think you can expect men to never have a look at a gorgeous girl walking past. It works both ways too - I’m engaged but I’ll happily have a perve at a hot tradie!

    • Erick says:

      05:24pm | 15/09/11

      @Margot - Exactly. The freedom to choose necessarily includes the freedom to choose to do things that other people might not like.

      @Kate - You understand men! We can’t avoid looking, it’s in our genes. But cheating is something we *can* control, and should.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      06:15am | 15/09/11

      Good on women if they want to make bucket loads of money working in the world’s second biggest industry. I think defence industry is the only one bigger. But your argument would have been stronger by comparing attitudes towards men in the industry

    • bec says:

      06:30am | 15/09/11

      I agree with all of your views and Ashlee Adams’ about sex work. I would also agree that younger generations of feminists need to be more prominently rejecting some of the beliefs espoused by some of the separatists and radicals - particularly with regards to their homophobia, transphobia and general fail to recognise that hating someone based on what body they were born into applies to the other 50% of the population.

      What I think the article skips over is how Third Wave feminists adopt a completely different tack regarding sex work. Bloggers like feministe.com and Shakesville are pretty eager to give a platform to activists and women who are sex workers (even some who do not identify as feminist). Furthermore we’re certainly pretty vocal about being anti-separatist, and Greer has come under a lot of scrutiny from the new generation over the last couple of years. Greer might have been responsible for an awakening decades ago but there is a lot for current progressives to criticise.

      Perhaps it’s my perception of the vocal-ness of the movement, but people who work in the sex industries have made massive inroads over the past five years (and may they continue to do so in the future). Being indiscriminate in criticism of all feminists for holding views that many of us do not believe, isn’t going to do much for that.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      01:07pm | 15/09/11

      “Women are by nature enemies.”

      Arthur Schopenhauer

    • Lapun says:

      03:27pm | 15/09/11

      Having seen the idiotic performance of Germaine Greer on Q&A this week I would suggest that at least some of these Dinosaurs should be put to the sword!  Oooh!  Wrong - burning at the stake wouls be more appropriate,

    • bec says:

      05:07pm | 15/09/11

      “Throwing in random quotes from famous philosophers makes you sound like an eighteen year old first-year Arts student.”

      Bruce Campbell.

    • Al Chunk says:

      10:41pm | 15/09/11

      “Greer might have been responsible for an awakening decades ago” 
      ...and she might have been responsible for developing the miniaturization of electrical components to create microchip technology - well if we’re going to be silly lets go all the way.

    • bec says:

      10:23am | 16/09/11

      Disingenuousness fail :(

    • Fiddler says:

      06:36am | 15/09/11

      The biggest thing holding women back is other women. End of story. I don’t judge a girl because she likes doodle. I don’t mind a bit of spadge so it would be hypocritical of me to do so. Having said that the sex industry isn’t my thing but best of luck to you.
      However for every high class brothel in Double Bay with some intelligent confidant young woman working there are probably ten drug addicts or illegal immigrants on the job in some factory unit in Western Sydney or hanging around truck stops, so some of those assumptions are based in reality.

    • Tis a Pity says:

      08:08pm | 22/09/11

      As a sex worker for 30 yrs I can tell you that there are intelligent and confident people of all gender identities working in all areas and types of sex work and that drug use (except tobacco)  and STI’s are lower in the sex worker population than in the general population. What you are quoting are ill informed media beat ups.

    • Tina says:

      06:57am | 15/09/11

      Okay, I will be the first here to admit the following:

      1. I believe that a woman would not deliberately work as sex worker and if she says so, I believe she suffers from deeper emotional issues.

      2. I feel for women that are forced to sell themselves. I disrespect women that choose to sell themselves.

      3. I am grateful that some women out there do this job, as that hopefully reduces the sexual assault rate.

      4. I think that a woman that is too “sexually liberated” can easily fall into the “cheap” and “no marriage material” category.

      If you call me hypocritical because of those mixed views then that is probably true.

    • Lauren says:

      08:31am | 15/09/11

      I think you have said what most people are thinking, feminists or not…
      Hypocrital, yeah, but that’s the general perception.

    • PsychoHyena says:

      08:52am | 15/09/11

      @Tina, if you enjoy sex why not get paid for it? If you like working with animals you tend to volunteer with the RSPCA or become a vet, if you like beauty therapy you become a beauty therapist.

      The really interesting thing from the girls I know who have worked in the sex industry is that more often than not it ends up being a case of lonely men needing a woman’s ear and comfort.

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:56am | 15/09/11

      Tina

      I often respect your comments but this time you are way off the mark.

      I’ve known a few strippers and sex workers in my time and have even dated a few strippers.

      They don’t do it because they are forced. They can earn a few grand every week and that is very tempting to anyone in their 20s.

      Some of them do it because of the added bonus that they like sex. So why not get paid to do what you like. Seems logical to me. If I could get paid to have sex then I’d do it too. Unfortunately I’d be lucky to be paid three-fiddy.

      You can disrepesct them all you like. Your choice. But remember, when you point your finger, three fingers are pointing back at you.

      To rate them as “no marriage material” because they are cheap or sexually liberated is an unfair assumption. Any man would want a nympho for a wife. That would be the best kind!

      Second-wave feminism sought to free women. Fine. But they also sought to enslave men and force us to be sexless lapdog ATMs because they wanted to control men by using our sex drive against us. They were misandrists who didn’t like the male sex drive and sought to denigrate it. Feminists such as Andrea Dworkin likened sex to rape. Many men are smart enough to ignore this and will cheer their own sexuality these days (myself included).

      The vast majority of girls in the sex industry are there of their own free will and if you talk to them you will find that they are funny and charming creatures who are aware of their choice and enjoy it.

      I don’t know any men in the sex industry but if I did I’d give them a high-five because I would be envious!

    • theo says:

      09:10am | 15/09/11

      i wholeheartedly agree with everything tina has to say, as a twenty something male who has been dragged into the odd stripclub i cannot imagine a well adjusted girl wanting to work under those conditions with that type of consumer, the seediness is enough to make you immediately leave.

    • Janey says:

      09:17am | 15/09/11

      Have another look at your points Tina, especially 2 and 3.
      I would call you more than hypocritical.
      You disrespect the ones who choose to do this but at the same time you are grateful because it may reduce sexual assault?
      Unbelievable.

    • Budz says:

      09:18am | 15/09/11

      1) I don’t know if it’s deeper emotional issues. I know a lady who does it because it’s a lot easier money than working a 40 hour week. Each to their own.

      2) I’m pretty sure everyone feels for women that are forced to do it, how can you not? For those who choose to do it, well I think people used to disrespect women that had sex before marriage, but those attitudes changed too.

      3)
      4) I’m glad you care so much for their personal love lives, but a promiscuous female could easily fall into that same category too.

    • Tina says:

      09:24am | 15/09/11

      @ Tubesteak

      I was aware that my comment wouldnt be popular when I wrote it and I know what I said is not PC and doesnt reflect a lot of people’s views, but I was honest about it. It’s how I feel about it.

    • Tina says:

      09:28am | 15/09/11

      @ Tubesteak

      One question though for you personally. Would you marry a sex worker or pole dancer? Would you be fine with her continuing her job during your marriage and when you have children together? Would you be concerned if the other dads in your children’s school and your friends enjoyed her services?

    • Tits McGee says:

      09:57am | 15/09/11

      Ooh, I love being able to refute opinions!

      1. I have worked in the sex industry. I loved it. I’m also rather happy and sane. I did it because I enjoyed it, I enjoyed how it made me feel and I enjoyed the money.

      2. I did not sell myself, I sold my companionship for a short while. It’s certainly not like I was doing anything against my will. If I wasn’t interested, then nothing doing. It’s really more accurate to think of the whole thing as a first date, with the gentleman paying the bill.

      3. I can appreciate that view, but I’m not really sure if that’s a viable hope. Sexual assault isn’t as much about sex as it is about power. But still, one can only hope.

      4. I’m engaged.

    • Tina says:

      10:32am | 15/09/11

      @ Janey

      Yes that is exactly it. I am against prostitution from an emotional point of view, but at the same time, I am glad that some women do this job, as I think it is a necessary occupation. So I am thankful someone does it, because I never would.

      It doesnt sound nice, I know.

    • Tubesteak says:

      10:37am | 15/09/11

      Tina

      Would you marry a sex worker or pole dancer? Would you be fine with her continuing her job during your marriage and when you have children together?
      I’ve made my view on marriage clear before. Marriage and LTRs are best left for men in their mid to late-forties. I’m about 10 years off that. As I said, I’ve dated strippers and the problem is they’re at work when I’m at home and vice versa. They were some of the nicest women I’ve ever dated though. Alas, it didn’t work out due to the timing thing. I wouldn’t have a problem going out with a stripper but I would draw the line at prostitute because that fits my definition of cheating (something I don’t do). With beautful women you accept that all men are looking at her and there’s no point getting jealous over looks or pick-up lines as it comes with the territory. Better if she gets paid a motza to be looked at wink

      Would you be concerned if the other dads in your children’s school and your friends enjoyed her services?
      Stripping no. Prostitution yes. For the reason outlined above. Any sex is cheating.

      Trust me there are advantages to a woman that can hang upside-down from a pole and spin around it = core fitness! Fit women are the best in the sack and often most comfortable with their bodies = double bonus!

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:08am | 15/09/11

      @ Tits McGee

      1. Is that the subtle scent of rationalisation I smell?

      2. Potato potato. Isn’t the gentleman always expected to pay on the first date? So weren’t you just being a little more honest than most?

      3. Sexual assault is only partially about power. There’s a reason sex is chosen as a weapon when baseball bats have never been cheaper.

      4. Good luck. Just realise your chances of sitting on the porch with your beloved in your autumn years dropped 99.99% the first time you took cash for sex - so get ready for an uphill battle. Be the .01.

    • Margot says:

      11:12am | 15/09/11

      @ Tina
      “I think that a woman that is too “sexually liberated” can easily fall into the “cheap” and “no marriage material” category.”
      Why should being marriage material be a concern?Is that all women can hope for?To be little more than a thing of worth to men?Really?

      “I believe that a woman would not deliberately work as sex worker and if she says so, I believe she suffers from deeper emotional issues.”
      I believe that a woman who doesn’t enjoy sex has deeper emotional issues.I believe that a woman who doesn’t feel beautiful and alive in that moment has deeper emotional issues.

      “I disrespect women that choose to sell themselves.”
      Why?Are women not allowed to make decisions that aren’t socially palatable?I don’t think being a house wife and nothing more is particularly smart but I most certainly don’t disrespect a woman should she choose to. All women should be free to do what makes them happy.Being a house wife makes many people happy and I say power to them,being a sex worker makes a lot of women happy too, power to them also.

    • Tina says:

      11:39am | 15/09/11

      @ Margot

      Its fine that you see it differently. But you cannot list other extremes to make your arguments sound better.

      A married woman does not have to be a “houes wife” (why that is used so negatively is another thing).

      A woman that does not sell herself can be a sexy and sexually fulfilled woman - only that she chooses to be “fulfilled” by her partner only. And a sex worker does not have to be a woman that enjoys sex all the time. Oh, please.

      Of course, you can choose to be a sex worker. But dont complain about struggling for respect in society. You knew about that.

    • HighlyDubious says:

      12:10pm | 15/09/11

      “1. I believe that a woman would not deliberately work as sex worker and if she says so, I believe she suffers from deeper emotional issues.”

      Nail, head.

    • James1 says:

      01:03pm | 15/09/11

      “4. Good luck. Just realise your chances of sitting on the porch with your beloved in your autumn years dropped 99.99% the first time you took cash for sex - so get ready for an uphill battle. Be the .01.”

      I used to live down the street from a .01 percenter, as it happens.  After selling herself for a decade to fund a heroin habit, she gave up that form of prostitution and instead shacked up with a heroin dealer.  Five kids later, and she is on the dole, living in government housing.  So there is hope (of a sort) for former prostitutes. After all, surely being married to a heroin dealer is a slight step up from selling your body to strangers for sex, right?

    • BJ says:

      04:13pm | 15/09/11

      Of course women who enter the sex industry have a mental problem. It is called narcissim and has reached epidemic proportions. We now have an entire generation of young women (in particular) who have spent their entire lives being told what they wanted to hear, all in the name of protecting their self-esteem. The very idea that people might not love them for any reason has never occurred to them.

    • Bella says:

      09:32pm | 15/09/11

      Do any of you have a daughter?? Would any of you want your daughter to be a prostitute or stripper? I think when you are thinking of your children all greed and lazyness is put aside & you come down to the bare truth of IS IT A GOOD THING TO DO? I certainly can see how people get into it, its way easier than going to uni and working hard to get that much money but I dont believe they feel as great about themselves as they say. Not an ideal job environment in my view but who knows, I have never done it and never will. I could never look my daughter in the face if she found out.

    • old fart says:

      11:35am | 16/09/11

      gee, I must be old fashioned. If I asked a lady out on a date, regardless of first, second, third or whatever, I would pay. When did the distinction between first and susequent dates creep in

    • bloke says:

      12:02pm | 16/09/11

      every single chick i have met that has done or is doing this sort of work, has some sort of mental illness

    • Brett says:

      01:00pm | 16/09/11

      @Tubesteak - I believe it is pronounced “tree-fiddy”, as in;

      “How much are the cookies?”
      “About tree fiddy”
      “God damn it lockness monster I ain’t giving you tree fiddy!”

      Funny times.

    • Ian says:

      11:22am | 18/09/11

      Tina, I think you might find that what happens in sex work and sexual assault are two different things. And “no marriage material”? What fairy tales did you grow up with?

    • Jason Todd says:

      09:34am | 20/09/11

      Bella - Morally, I’d rather that my daughter be a stripper or sex worker over a banker or criminal defence attorney.

    • Tis A Pity says:

      08:15pm | 22/09/11

      So many negative comments by people who very little about what they are commenting on.Thanks to those with positive comments who have given the issue some thought.
      And nearly all of you think that all sex workers are female. What about us guys who are sex workers, and how do we fit into the feminist anti-sex work arguments ?

    • Ghost says:

      07:03am | 15/09/11

      Where’s Tankard-Reist to comment on these sort of things?

    • Budz says:

      07:45am | 15/09/11

      Geez I can’t stand her. Couldn’t stand what she was saying on QandA. I prefer a Leslie Cannold brand of ‘feminism’.

    • L. says:

      08:02am | 15/09/11

      She will be published on here tomorrow.. wink

    • Jem says:

      02:01am | 20/09/11

      It’s fascinating how virulently anti-feminist men suddenly become passionate, die-hard feminists when it comes to the right of a woman to sell her body to them for sex.

    • Jhondarc says:

      07:53am | 15/09/11

      While appreciating that Vivica feels liberated by it, ultimately she has become a commodity, and that in turn commodifies all women.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      08:27am | 15/09/11

      Some women does not translate to all women. That is buying into the gender-based victim mentality Vivica is arguing against.

    • Erick says:

      08:43am | 15/09/11

      @Jhondarc - That’s silly.

      You could equally say that any sort of work turns any person into a commodity and in turn commodifies all people. Why is sex work any different?

    • B says:

      08:57am | 15/09/11

      @Jhondarc

      Really??  So then take a builder for example.  They are a commodity by your definition then.  So this in turn commodifies all men.  Oh, we should stop all middle-aged women from doing renovations, as they are commodifying men.

      What a ridiculous statement.  As stated before.  Its all a matter of perspective.

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:59am | 15/09/11

      We are all commodities. I sell my time and expertise to a company for financial recompense. I’m sure you do the same. Sex workers are no different.

      Prositution is the world’s oldest profession for a reason.

    • Budz says:

      09:07am | 15/09/11

      Please explain that ridiculous statement.

    • Chris L says:

      10:43am | 15/09/11

      I work for a large coporation selling my time and efforts for money. I have become a commodity and, in turn, commodify you.

      We all prostitute ourselves but many of us don’t have such enjoyable jobs.

    • Helena says:

      07:56am | 15/09/11

      hi very interesting article as a female feminist myself i have said similar anti sex industry slurs myself over the years and to be honest i think strippers,porn stars and sex workers in general make ordinary women feel very thretened and uncomfortable because we fear loosing our men to the industry. As we are just average looking women we do feel jealous of the gorgous ladys working in the industry with their seemingly perfect bodies it is very confronting. But your article has made me think about things in a new way and i will be more open minded in the future.

    • Tina says:

      08:29am | 15/09/11

      Losing our men to the industry? Oh puh-lease. There is something between a nun and the industry. Its called a hot girlfriend. And that should be you.

    • Tits McGee says:

      10:01am | 15/09/11

      Don’t feel threatened, please. By and large, we don’t want your men for anything more than a short while and an open wallet. Sounds a bit mercenary, but there it is. I think the problem here is less to do with the sex industry and more to do with self-esteem.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:13am | 15/09/11

      “Don’t feel threatened, please. By and large, we don’t want your men for anything more than a short while and an open wallet. Sounds a bit mercenary”

      Don’t be silly, Tits, that sounds almost humanist.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:45am | 15/09/11

      “Don’t feel threatened, please. By and large, we don’t want your men for anything more than a short while and an open wallet. Sounds a bit mercenary, but there it is.”

      Arguably there’s some women who go into marriage with the same intention.

    • gra gra says:

      12:43pm | 16/09/11

      @Tina. One day you will discover the true purpose of nuns, (they are called the brides of christ for a reason), and then you will realise how silly the comments you make about their assumed purity. Rome realised early on that the priests would be human first, and obedient second, so the rather obvious solution was devised.
      There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s the novitate’s choice, just as a woman selling that particular part of her body is her choice. Incidentally, I write poetry, so I am, in effect selling my typewriting fingers for profit. And, I enjoy it. Let’s not be too judgemental, Tina. To each his/her own. OK?

    • Tina says:

      07:58am | 15/09/11

      Any reason reason my first comment didnt get posted?

    • Louise says:

      08:21am | 15/09/11

      As a feminist I believe a woman’s body is hers to own and control. While you see pornography as empowering for women, you have negated to talk about the women who do not have this control in your industry.

      Pornography also places unrealistic expectations on all other women to be ‘porn stars’ when in bed.

    • B says:

      09:32am | 15/09/11

      “Pornography also places unrealistic expectations on all other women to be ‘porn stars’ when in bed.”

      How???  Does “the dark knight” place unrealistic expectations that every billionaire should be a vigilante with a black cape???

      Does a builder give unrealistic expectations that every man can build?  Come on.  Some actual intelligent thought out comments would be nice.

    • adam says:

      09:59am | 15/09/11

      Louise whose unrealistic expectations? Most rational adults understand the difference between fantasy and reality. Most men understand that watching Bullit doesn’t mean they expect their mates or themselves to drive like a getaway driver, most men don’t watch sex in the city and expect all wommen to be vacuous shoe obsessed neurotics. Most men understand porn is a fantasy and understand their female partners have realistic desires and limits to their participation rates and antics in the bedroom

    • Budz says:

      10:15am | 15/09/11

      And the porn doesn’t put unrealistic expectations on men regarding ‘size’?

      Also have some respect for men’s intelligence please, surely the majority of men know that porn is fake and expecting women to be like that is unrealistic. And women should be strong enough to tell their partners that they aren’t porn stars.

    • Tina says:

      10:42am | 15/09/11

      @ Budz

      We grant you to have a brain. And both men and women are nothing more than caricatures in porn. I watch porn but I know it is as close to reality as Walt Disney’s Arielle.

      And now before someone says “Oh, but you said you disrespect sex workers, but you watch porn?”. Correct. And I think most of us do.

    • Tubesteak says:

      10:48am | 15/09/11

      Unrealistic expectations? Really?

      You can’t screw for fifteen minutes in the usual generic positions?

      BJ
      Fellatio
      Cowgirl
      Reverse cowgirl
      Doggy-style
      On your back

      If you can’t manage that then you’re a dud root.

    • Tina says:

      11:07am | 15/09/11

      @ Tubesteak

      That yes, but come on, its overdrawn. How many women say “Oh, yes, please! In my face, aim at my eyes. I love having it all gooping and sticking in my eyelashes so it takes me three weeks before I can open them again”

    • St. Michael says:

      11:57am | 15/09/11

      @ Tubesteak:

      “Unrealistic expectations? Really?  You can’t screw for fifteen minutes in the usual generic positions?

      BJ
      Fellatio
      Cowgirl
      Reverse cowgirl
      Doggy-style
      On your back

      If you can’t manage that then you’re a dud root.”

      If so, then most pornstars are so as well.  They do edit the scenes to allow for breaks between positions, you know.  Not that I’ve been focused on the cinematography that much (unless it’s a very, very badly-made porno.)

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      12:27pm | 15/09/11

      Gone off pr0n for that very reason, Tina. 
       
      How many people do 5 minutes and 30 seconds in each of three or four positions, followed by a faceful of unborn while the girl kneels, tongue out, like Lassie waiting for a liver treat?  Yet that is the sort of formula that makes up most of it these days.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      12:49pm | 15/09/11

      Louise you cute little capitalist, you’re just raging against changing market conditions.

      Whereas once you could get away with a little starfish to lure your gold laden dreamboat into Port Monogamy, now you have to really put on a show, expend real energy, pretend to actually enjoy sex to merely lure a bronze laden ferry into the Bay of Mediocrity.

      You have one of two choices:

      1. Follow Steve Jobs’ lead and innovate, undertake new training and break through your inhibitions and actually enjoy complete sexual fulfillment in this plane of existence. I know, it’s going to be tough.

      or

      2. Single handedly bring down one of the largest industries known to humankind.

    • Tubesteak says:

      01:31pm | 15/09/11

      Tina
      I give those women bonus points

      St Michael
      Yes, the scenes are edited but it’s not like they’re doing anything all that vigourous. If you need a break to change from cowgirl to reverse cowgirl then you need to hit the gym.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:31pm | 15/09/11

      @ SSR:

      “Single handedly”?

      Pretty sure if you’re using both hands you’re doing it wrong!

    • Fiddler says:

      01:44pm | 15/09/11

      @ Louise, women complain about other husbands/boyfriends having more money to their partners all the time, this is just catch-up of the sort of “well look at what she does for him” Lose some weight, lighten up and the chip might fall off your shoulder. Also these unrealistic expectations go both ways, not every guy has twelve inches and can last hours.

      @Tony, you have it wrong, that is exactly how I do it. I used to use a clock with an alarm, now I just instinctively know when it is five minutes thirty seconds.

      @Tubesteak, how could you possibly leave out piledriver?

    • Kate says:

      03:44pm | 15/09/11

      @Louise, I don’t believe that’s true. I’ve never been with a man who’s been disappointed that sex in real life is not like porn. Real sex can be awkward, may not last as long and often doesn’t feature multiple orgasms, but it also has an intimacy that sex depicted in porn tends to lack.
      Not all women come after thirty seconds and like their faces ejaculated on, just like not all men have ten inch wangs. The majority of men (and women) are aware of this.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:50pm | 15/09/11

      @ tubesteak:

      “St Michael
      Yes, the scenes are edited but it’s not like they’re doing anything all that vigourous.”

      Clearly we are not watching the same porn.

    • Louise says:

      04:19pm | 15/09/11

      Thanks for all the comments about my sex life. However I was making reference to an article on pornography in the September issue of The Monthly. If you care to widen your reading you may find it balances this argument somewhat.

      And @Fiddler I don’t think ‘lose some weight’ actually resolves the issue of the misconceptions pornography creates about sex.

      By the way, assuming I need to lose weight is like me assuming you have a small…...

    • bella starkey says:

      04:52pm | 15/09/11

      @tubesteak:

      you know a blow job and fellatio are the same thing right? I think the word you were looking was cunnilingus. Or is that not in your repartoire?

    • Condor says:

      06:00pm | 15/09/11

      * repertoire

      If you’re going to correct someone at least ensure your own accuracy.

    • Snake says:

      04:13pm | 16/09/11

      Damnit Tina you can act. That “aim at my eyes” comment got me needing a cold shower.

    • Lauren says:

      08:24am | 15/09/11

      Not sure if picking on Greer is justified in this case… She did say her views are outdated and she can no longer relate to girls of today on Q&A.

      But honestly…. What the bloody hell do you expect? That industry has always exploited women and children, and people (not just feminists) can’t easily separate that thought when they think of the sex industry.

      So you get one negative comment from a troll on Twitter - welcome to the Internet! Toughen up mate.

    • John says:

      08:29am | 15/09/11

      Whats funny also the people that pushed for porn in the US were Marxists who despised christian culture. So the Marxist are not only pushing the idea that woman are oppressed and exploited by the evil western white christian man but they are also pushing porn at the same time(sexual liberation from oppressive Christianity as they say). Moral Decadence in the west has been largely pushed by atheistically Marxist types who want to undermine western society. It’s no surprise that porn which is entirely degrading to the western woman have been influenced by Marxist intellectual thought, then the blame is shifted on to western men, to further to exploit the situation. Blaming white western men turning white women into sex objects. Funny isn’t it!

    • gra gra says:

      01:57pm | 16/09/11

      You are the funny one. “christians” have been exploiting women for ages. Think the ‘christian’ slave-traders, brothel owners, churches,
      etc., and you will remember how unwilling women have been to participate in the sex and no-pay work areas. Perhaps they were also Marxists, John. What do you think, given that ‘christians’ have such a disgusting record of maltreatment of the female sex?
      Further to the main point, [ women’s right to choose and ‘christianity’ don’t belong in the same sentence], if this trade is what the girls wish to follow, if they are filling a need, and harm no-one, what on earth do the wankers complain for.
      And remember John, some women conceive after sex with men other than their husbands. Like Mary , in your wierd philosophy, supposedly did. And they did it without payment. Why? Because they chose to, nitwit.
      And martyn Healer(?), you ask from the same stupidity base as John whether I would like my Mum, daughter, etc, to participate in the sex trade? And I shall answer in like. If it was good enough for the object of your adoration to be born as a result of an immoral relationship, then why should not someone else’s mother also have a fling, married or not. And be paid for their services. Nitwit!

    • martyn Healer says:

      08:38am | 15/09/11

      As a man i find little sisterhood in this article and a lot of hypocrisy, The simple question i ask men is would you like your mother ,sister ,wife ,daughter to be involved in the sex industry ,if not do not watch it or buy into it ,For every empowered woman there will be 50 disempowered . Why do i know this ? Because i worked for 7 years setting up drug programs for the OPD. THE fall out from the sex industry is horrendous . sex slaves are real and it is estimated there are over 2000 eastern europeans in the UK alone , The huge majority of women in the sex industry have been sexualy abused before realising they may as well get paid for it ! Having spoke too and interviewed hundreds of vulnerable abused sexworkers i know this !!! sex is sacred in my world, its not too objectify women,would a women be at peace and secure enough too marry a male porn star ! i dont think so and no man wants the mother of his child and the love of his life too have been an ex sex worker ! too support the sex industry is too support the objectification,slavery and deep misery for the majority .Wake up and smell the money ,ooops i mean coffee !!!

    • Tina says:

      10:36am | 15/09/11

      Thank you. You have all my support.

      The article reads great in the beginning but it is a farce. And that is the reason why its been written - because if she was liberated, she wouldnt think about writing it. I dont have to write an article about justifying my job.

    • Tim says:

      12:58pm | 15/09/11

      I don’t respect sex workers but I respect their ability to make their own decisions and that is why I support the sex industry.

    • Chris L says:

      02:13pm | 15/09/11

      Martyn, those kind of abuses are illegal and any cases you hear about should be reported. That doesn’t make the industry bad any more than the institution of marriage is bad because some husbands beat their wives.

      You said yourself the huge majority of women were sexually abused before entering the industry, so you can’t say it was the industry that caused the problem.

      I would estimate that close to 100% of women have either used men’s desire for sex to get something they want, or they would happily use the desire if they could. Why is it different if the woman wants cash up front? I consider that the more honest approach anyway.

    • Fiona says:

      06:01pm | 15/09/11

      Where on earth did you get your views on women Chris L??? Have you taken a poll on women that use their desirability in exchange for goods? How about a poll on men that will wave the cash in front of women for goods? They’re both insulting ideas and only a minority of people are like that anyway.
      Those going into the sex industry aren’t all from abused etc backgrounds, but boy do a lot of them end up with problems, be it drugs, alcohol, hatred for their clients etc.

    • Chris L says:

      06:25pm | 15/09/11

      As I said Fiona, that was just my own estimate. I don’t have extensive knowledge of the industry, but I’m willing to take on board the opinion of an expert while reading her article.

      Tell me, do you expect nothing of your own sexual partners? Would you be happy for them to be unemployed, or to spend their time doing their own thing without having to give you the attention you may or may not desire? Is there no situation where they might find themselves sleeping on the couch? Just curious.

    • Fiona says:

      07:09pm | 15/09/11

      Chris L, seeing as I’m married I only have one sexual partner, ok? Yeah, of course I expect him to do stuff, just as he does me. It’s called a relationship, but I don’t view him as just an ATM, just as he doesn’t view me as just a vagina. Don’t remember using sex as a bargaining chip before marriage either. Some of us don’t actually do that. How about you? Do you expect your partners to have sex whenever and clean the house and cook your dinner after?
      I just found your comment somewhat insulting.

    • gra gra says:

      02:55pm | 16/09/11

      You, martyn, are too too much too. Your Twos, tos, and toos show me that the drug programs you put toogether are Two my way of thinking a little to unimaginable.
      Perhaps a trip back two school would show that to times too doesn’t make two. Go back anyway.
      I’ve got too visitors coming at to o’clock so I must twodle off. Tworah!

    • Chris L says:

      07:55pm | 16/09/11

      Fair enough Fiona. You very well may have the kind of relationship where you would both spend your lives together even if sex were never involved again. I guess I just always suspect ulterior motives, not just from women. Cynical perhaps, but my own experience, and that of everyone I’ve spoken to on the subject, tends to be different to what you describe.

      Congratulations on the happy marriage.

    • Mil says:

      02:40am | 20/09/11

      Thank you Martyn.The idea that most women happily and freely choose prostitution is not borne out by empirical evidence. The illegal sex industry in Victoria for example is approximately four times that of the legal industry and this is mirrored in other countries where prostituion is legal/decriminalised. The majorirty of women in prostitution worldwide are women from developing countries and/or of minority races. The woman who wrote this article speaks from a position of privilege. Sadly her privilege could be ripped out from under her at any moment. Prostitution is statistically one of the most dangerous ‘jobs’ there is in terms of physical/sexual violence and murder. I personally know girls who died in this industry and whose lives have been deeply impacted by trauma. I myself am still suffering the physical, mental health and personal consequences so many years later.

      “You said yourself the huge majority of women were sexually abused before entering the industry, so you can’t say it was the industry that caused the problem”.

      There is a consistent connection between child sexual abuse and prostitution according to the American Psycholgical Association and other researchers. The abuse acts as grooming for promiscuity prositution. It’s called trauma bonding. The idea that you can disconnect childhood sexual trauma from adult prostitution is completely disengenuous.

      I personally think this tendency for people to disconnect is a large part of the problem. I don’t understand how a man can look at a woman who is so obviously abused and exploited and switch off any empathy and compassion so he can go ahead and exploit her more for his own gratification. We need to start focussing on *those* personal choices in my opinion.

    • John Smythe says:

      08:41am | 15/09/11

      Excellent article. Well written and very clear in its message. Good also, to see women defending their rights against outdated feministic positions.

      Please continue to contribute to the punch!

    • Anna C says:

      08:42am | 15/09/11

      Vivica, if you think that taking your clothes off and having sex with men for money is empowering well then good for you. I don’t personally and would rather flip burgers at McDonalds than resort to doing that, but then that’s just me. I do find it interesting however that you feel the need to justify what you do for a living.

      Bottom line is do whatever makes you happy. You can’t please everyone, so you’ve got to please yourself.

    • Chris L says:

      02:15pm | 15/09/11

      She’s not justifying her profession, she’s telling people like you to quit abusing her for it.

    • Outraged says:

      05:24pm | 15/09/11

      @AnnaC: stop being so self-righteous!

      You actually get more dirty flipping burgers at McDonalds than being a Sex Worker!

    • Susie says:

      08:47am | 15/09/11

      Good article - but have you ever read any of the empirical studies on men’s shifting attitudes to women after they watch porn?

      Regardless of how empowered a woman may feel doing this, it definitely doesn’t translate into dignity or respect from the typical man. Have a read of ANY report of work done in this area - it opens up a plethora of issues many of us don’t consider! Among other things it suggests heavy porn users have increased expectations for women to perform ‘traditional’ roles ... hardly empowering!

      I’m 100% behind women’s equality, but I hardly think this is an effective way of getting it… all evidence points to the contrary…

      The studies are really interesting though… I definitely recommend you have a read.

    • Fiddler says:

      09:28am | 15/09/11

      what reports? You mean something written by Gail Dines? Guys like hot chicks, girls like rich dudes. Us guys watch porn if we can’t pull a hot chick, women watch SATC if they can’t get a rich guy.

    • Susie says:

      12:08pm | 15/09/11

      Haha each to their own! I meant research papers though - fact based rather than emotive writing

    • Erick says:

      01:37pm | 15/09/11

      Well, Susie, why don’t you link to these “research papers”? I suspect they’re written by feminists or religious fundamentalists with a barrow to push.

    • Chris L says:

      02:16pm | 15/09/11

      Susie, could you provide a link to one or more of these reports?

    • Kay says:

      01:57am | 20/09/11

      Obviously not many people have read Gail Dines but are just indulging in the age old strategy of personally attacking feminists, as opposed to engaging in their actual arguments. I urge people to read her book with an open mind. It’s very well researched, not emotive or irrational at all. She’ s been researching the sex industry for years in terms of the impact it has on consumers, users and women and men in the industry itself. She also refers to research by others in all kind of fields such as social science, psychology, child health, and neuroscience. The evidence is increasing that there are serious ethical problems with this product - at the very least.

    • AdamC says:

      08:54am | 15/09/11

      Vivica, I liked your article. But it did use a lot of words to fail to reach the obvious conclusion that many feminists have a lot of undeclared hang-ups about sexuality, especially women’s sexuality.

      They are by no means alone. Catholic and muslim doctrines display incredible insecurity about - and revulsion towards - female sexuality. Some feminists are litte different in their response, it is just expressed differently.

    • Catherine says:

      11:07am | 15/09/11

      it’s not about a revolution towards sexuality, it’s a revolution towards the fact that there are many young men today who cannot respond sexually to real physical sexual acts, because they have been conditioned visually to only be stimulated by porn. So yes it is revolting, it’s revolting how young people can’t have healthy sexual relationships any more because young men are used to seeing women systematically degraded every time they have sex. The average age that children see porn is now 11. The average age of sexual intercourse - 16. There is 6 years for young men (and women) to be conditioned to expect sex to be like porn. The majority of porn is not made for the pleasure of women, it’s made for the pleasure of men. People are never shown giving consent. Porn is acting as sex education, and given the plethora of porn on the internet, this is really scary stuff for the future of healthy sexual relationships.

    • AdamC says:

      11:34am | 15/09/11

      Catherine, I think people are getting a bit obsessed about porn. Most men don’t think porn reflects any kind of real, fulfilling intimate relationship. Either it is used merely as an instrument to enhance self-gratification (wow, how often do you get to use that term in the literal sense!) or a way of exploring fantasies that are hard or scary to engage with in a real-life context.

      Porn’s influence on the real sex-lives of people is overstated.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      12:15pm | 15/09/11

      Catherine, you don’t need to worry. Us men realise the majority of women are tight little balls of insecurity and inhibitions when it comes to the bedroom.

    • Fiddler says:

      01:26pm | 15/09/11

      @Catherine, you have just about quoted Gail Dines word for word>Maybe young men can’t get aroused because so many of the young ladies these days are so fat and ugly? Maybe explains why you have such an issue with it.

    • Budz says:

      05:17pm | 15/09/11

      @Catherine: Once again you are talking about different issues here under the guise of “porn is bad”. I don’t think anyone disagrees that kids should not have access to porn.
      “The average age of sexual intercourse - 16.” I reckon it’s been around that for thousands of years.
      “People are never shown giving consent.” I don’t know what porn you watch but in a majority of it out there, the women seem pretty keen!

      “young men are used to seeing women systematically degraded every time they have sex. ”  Again I don’t know what kind of porn you watched, but a majority of porn out there is consensual m/f sex.

      To summarise your main gripe is that kids are having access to porn at a young age. And who can argue with that? Parents should take more control over what their kids have access to. But I don’t know how you can blame porn for that.

    • Grant says:

      08:56am | 15/09/11

      GoGo Vivica Delicious !

      I couldn’t agree more. 

      It’s about the personal freedom to choose.

    • Erasmus says:

      09:00am | 15/09/11

      Just took a look at “Facts” that the writer put forward.

      I couldn’t see one substantiation.

      Unless I missed something.

    • Syl says:

      10:05am | 15/09/11

      First hand experience in the industry?

      Common sense?

      Pick one.

    • Erasmus says:

      10:24am | 15/09/11

      Okay, so we’ve got a sample group of one. Plus something called “common sense.”

      Just wanted to check the full force of the argument we’ve got here.

    • James1 says:

      11:14am | 15/09/11

      The problem is that the author claims that our stereotypes of the sex industry are wrong because her and one other sex worker say they are.  That is very poor substantiation by any standard.

      You need to cast the research net wider than this to validly substantiate such large claims as those presented here.

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      09:01am | 15/09/11

      If it is a real choice, then do what you like. It does not affect me in the slightest and I certainly do not judge sex workers.  As long as we do keep on top of illegal brothels with forced sex workers.  Live and let live.

    • MarkS says:

      09:02am | 15/09/11

      I suspect that many feminists, particularly the old style ones have a lot of issues with their own sexuality. It does not therefore come as a surprise that they look down on women who do not have their same issues.

      All men who are honest with themselves understand one thing, it you are heterosexual & male you always pay for sex. Sex workers are simply more open & honest about what you pay & what you will get.

    • Tina says:

      09:31am | 15/09/11

      @ MarkS

      You dont have to have issues with your sexuality just because your dont approve of women selling themselves. You can be a hottie and still have the values to see sex as something between you and your partner. And for free.

    • Nafe says:

      11:10am | 15/09/11

      Tina, Everyone’s values are different. No one is forcing you into or to use a sex industry worker or no one is forcing you into a strip joint or to watch porn.

      Why would you need to judge someone just because their moral compass does not agree with yours?

      It’s a free country and women are permitted to do what they want to do, with or without your permission.

      Just be happy you have a husband who is happy to have missionary with a starfish every few weeks rather than to judge others who wish to be a bit more adventurous and do something they love.

    • Tina says:

      11:46am | 15/09/11

      @ Nafe

      And now you were judging and even insulting me.

      I spoke my mind. Its subjective. I am judgemental. I am faulty. I am by all means not always right.

      And when you put prostitution on the same level as being sexually adventurous then I personally and subjectively disagree and say its not the same.

      Why is the general opinion here that a woman has to be a pole dancer or sex worker to be exciting in bed? What about all your girlfriends and wives? What a sad result.

    • Nafe says:

      12:08pm | 15/09/11

      @Tina, thats not what i’m saying and you know it. You sit there and judge Viv and everyone in her industry but when i judge you as being close minded therefore bad in bed you get offended too?

      See there are two sides to the coin here, you are judging this woman by her chosen occupation therefore all people in the sex industry are thhe same in your eyes but don’t want to be judged as being bad in bed cause your niot in the sex industry.

      Generalizations suck don’t they.

    • MarkS says:

      02:03pm | 15/09/11

      @Tina
      Free really? You expect nothing from your boyfriend whatsoever but mutual sex. I call bullshit.

      Is your boyfriend employed? How often have you had a serious relationship with a man who is either long term unemployed & of a seriously lower socio-economic status then you?

      Do you expect him to act in a certain manner? He pays you, the price is not simply money, but you have a price. No doubt part of your self-respect is that you do have a price, not that you call it that. You call it standards & not being cheap.

      The very fact that you in a post above called a woman being cheap in relation to being willing to sleep with men for money only betrays your knowledge that men pay you for sex & you are not willing to just accept money.

      Do not bother asking him which parts of his behaviour & interaction with you he considers part of the price he pays for having sex with you. He will lie, that is part of the price. Does my bum look big in this? The answer is always, without fail “No dear”. Even & indeed more importantly when you do have a massive butt.

    • George says:

      09:02am | 15/09/11

      No matter how much feminism we’ve had men still get judged by the size of their wallets. So it’s only fair that we get to judge a woman by how she looks.

      I’ve heard women in the sex industry can clear $10k a week, so after a year or two they could set themselves up and be free and clear from any dependence on men for the rest of their lives.

    • fairsfair says:

      09:04am | 15/09/11

      What a great article. I certainly appreciate that it does not apply to all women in the industry, but it is very true - women do have a mind of their own.

      I think the principle goes much further than just the sex industry though. Anything other women want to do is heavily criticised by other women. Fiddler is on to it up above. If a woman wants to have children and create a home and not work she is a failure. She is throwing sand in the face of all women who soldiered on before her. If a woman does not want to have kids and work hard her entire life, she is a failure. She will never experience “the joys of motherhod”. If a woman wants to do both (and essentially fail at both) she is a hero. More likely the outcome is she will manage for a short period of time, frazzle and then blame male dominated society or the economy for her issues. No toots - only other woman place these stupid demands on you and try and make out that you are a superhero purely because you have a vagina and something came out of it.

      I am so very thankful for all the average women who came before me. Who took up gainful employment in horrible conditions. Missed out on jobs purely because they were women and overcame adversity. You guys rock. I am not thankful for the Gail Dines and the Melinda Tankard-Reists of this world as they are simply perpetuating this issue. Women look to them and watch the bleet and b*tch about the choices of other women. If they were really interested in liberation of Thai child prostitutes they’d be over in Thailand at the coalface - they wouldn’t be writing wanky academic papers and novellas on the porn industry and degradation of women for the UK and Australian public.

    • AdamC says:

      09:41am | 15/09/11

      Very well said, Fairs. This is one of the best comments I have seen on here for a while.

    • adam says:

      10:06am | 15/09/11

      thank you one thousand time Fairs. If olny more women took your attitude to life MOST of us would, I suspect be far happier.

      I am starting to see some of the female behaviour you rail against being manifest in the male sphere, judging others decicions/choices againts a percieved norm and i don’t like it one little bit thank you very much

    • fairsfair says:

      04:50pm | 15/09/11

      naw thanks AdamC. Shucks LOL

      adam, that is a bit sad to hear. I always envied men for their lack of bitchiness and ability to just “move on” from things. I think if you scratch the surface, most women are subject to horrific inner turmoil. Many of them put on a happy face well but when they are aware that other women are going to judge them whatever they do - they second guess absolutely every decision they make in life, from what they will wear/say/do to eat etc etc. It is sad to hear that such a horrible trait is wearing off on men, but then again I am not sure why I am surprised. Women have become so accustomed to shifting blame for their incompitence or inability or wrong decisions over the years - men are probably likely to do the old “if ya can’t beat em join em”.

      It is very damaging, but I think it has gone on so long it is just widely accepted and too late to reverse. The female mind is a complex little nugget.

    • bec says:

      05:15pm | 15/09/11

      Fairs, if you want to disavow yourself you can come watch the boys at my school. Men not bitchy? You will laugh until you cry at how even the most stereotypically manly of them will turn to bitch about their best mate in a heartbeat. Our motto really should be “if you don’t have anything nice to say, come sit next to me” in Latin.

      Served time in both single sex boys’ and girls’ schools. The girls were remarkably less bitchy.

    • fairsfair says:

      09:32am | 16/09/11

      Fair point bec. I do recall the same sort of stuff going on when I too was in high school, but in an adult sense I think it is quite different.

      I have worked in predominantly male and predominantly female offices and I will take the boys any day. Women are preoccupied by gossip, they hold grudges and they will scratch your eyes out to get above you. The men I worked with had issues yes, faught on occasion, but it was usually resolved with a “pull your head in” and things contunied as per usual. Yes the competitiveness is there and if push came to shove they too would probably scratch out eyes for victory, but I just find men work better together. I always thought it was down to the fact the jealousy isn’t there.

      I would hate to walk into an office of men and have one say “pfffthahhah did you see what shirt James is wearing today?”. That happened within the female dominated office multiple times daily in my last job. Its tiresome and downright sad. I know not all women are like this (I certainly am not), but we are outnumbered!

    • bec says:

      10:22am | 16/09/11

      I wouldn’t say we’re outnumbered. We’re more likely the norm than the exception - it’s easier to notice the two or three bitchy women in a workplace (who are only a small minority of what, twenty?) because we have the cultural conditioning to say women are bitchy than it is to make the same sort of sweeping statement about men’s bitchiness. People aren’t bitchy or assholes because they’re men, or because they’re women: they’re assholes because they’re shit human beings.

      I’ve worked in a variety of workplaces and there’s not been a huge difference in aggressiveness, passive or otherwise. I worked as sole lady in an all-male cafe where a chef pulled a knife on the (dickhead) manager after working eight days in a row. I’ve worked in chemistry labs where long-standing grudges and miscommunication between male and female scientists resulted in industrial fires and people being hospitalised. Some people are just poor communicators who don’t work well with anybody, and I’ve spent enough time over the past three months sorting out student disputes and unravelling their lies to say definitively that there’s nothing separating men and women in terms of backstabbing apart from public perception.

      When I was in a co-ed environment as a young person, I remember the people who made unpleasant comments about my appearance, family situation, attractiveness and intelligence. None of them were girls. I hate the whole “women are their own worst enemy” spin.

      I love my job especially because I love the students I work with. You get away from the individuals who are catty and vindictive and you’re working with future prime ministers and world leaders. But the number of boys - even reasonably nice ones - who will pretend to be friends with someone they don’t like simply because they have their license or a car, or their parents are permissive enough to let them hold massive booze-fuelled parties each weekend, is pretty staggering…

    • Caz says:

      09:07am | 15/09/11

      I had to chuckle at the suggestion that the author believes her male fans are genuinely interested in what she has to say…..........yeah right!!!!!  You keep that fantasty alive sister….

    • Tina says:

      09:35am | 15/09/11

      *smile*
      Thanks for confirming that I am not the only one thinking this.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:50am | 15/09/11

      I’m sorry, what did you say? I was too busy looking at the author photo.

    • Anna C says:

      12:28pm | 15/09/11

      It’s like those guys who say they only read ‘Playboy’ for the articles. Yeah sure you do.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:54pm | 15/09/11

      But I do read Playboy for the articles, I just have to (THIS PART UNFIT FOR PUBLICATION) first.

    • Tubesteak says:

      03:51pm | 15/09/11

      and you think men are interested in whatb you have to say because…...?

      Glasses houses. Stones. Refrain.

    • Outraged says:

      05:46pm | 15/09/11

      Caz, Tina, AnnaC: your jealousy is very transparent!

      You have never gotten over the fact that men chose the hot girl over your bookish charm…

    • Lauren says:

      09:51pm | 15/09/11

      “You have never gotten over the fact that men chose the hot girl over your bookish charm…”

      Are you still stuck in high school or something? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you use the “you’re just jealous!!!!!!1111”  line? Honestly.

    • Andrea says:

      09:12am | 15/09/11

      Interesting opinion piece. Whilst I accept your take on this, and understand there may be women/men in the industry that feel this way, there are certainly cases where this freedom & self-gratification is not the outcome. A friend working for Red Cross deals with many situations of sex trafficking where (mostly) women from developing countries are put in horrendous situations where they are sexually exploited purely for the financial gratification of others. Do you think this would happen if the industry had enough free-willing workers?

    • St. Michael says:

      12:10pm | 15/09/11

      That argument would be stronger if the the sex industry was the only industry where exploitation of third world natives for first world money takes place.

      Try your average Thai maid in a Saudi mansion, for example.  Or indeed your average illiterate cleaner in Australia who works for Shonky Bros. Inc.  The presence of free and willing workers doesn’t stop workplace abuses - but the sex industry does not have any particular distinction on that other than being the oldest industry of them (not to mention, because of the societal taboo, one of the most unregulated.)

      A better query would be: in places like Amsterdam where the sex industry is expected if not catered for, and better regulated because it’s officially acknowledged to exist, what’s the abuse rate like?

    • Jade (the other one) says:

      04:16pm | 15/09/11

      @St Michael, it is recently coming to light that as many as 3/4 of the sex workers in Amsterdam are international workers. There are concerns that those international workers are not all there willingly. For some, it is the extreme difficulty of getting other work in those countries, and for others it is a result of the scourge of human trafficking from Eastern Europe.

      Either way, Holland is not particularly concerned about the plight of non-citizens working in the red-light district.

    • Ella says:

      09:20am | 15/09/11

      While we should in general respect other peoples choices, and definitely not resort to name calling, there is a limit to what people are able to consent to. There is a really interesting law precedent for example where a judge ruled that no one can consent to having their genitals nailed to a table (don’t ask), and in employment law there are certain things which you cannot sign away in contracts. So I thing there is a genuine question about whether people can choose certain things, that we have certain natural rights which we cannot abrogate. I think some areas of the sex industry maybe straddle the line.

      I also think we need to distinguish between actually empowerment and the illusion of empowerment. Sometimes people mistake the attention they receive from doing certain things as power. It might feel like it is, but it is an illusion of power. It is something that someone else chooses to give you, and they can remove at anytime, and if it is based on looks will as soon as you start to get old. True empowerment should be inalienable.

    • BobM says:

      09:30am | 15/09/11

      Have you seen Craig Thomson lately?

    • Max Redlands says:

      11:02am | 15/09/11

      Back of the net!!

    • James1 says:

      11:08am | 15/09/11

      If so, don’t let him pay by credit card.

    • Mahhrat says:

      09:35am | 15/09/11

      Great article Vivica, but I’m afraid it only holds true for those sex workers who, like you, genuinely chose to do it and have the mental toughness to survive it.

      When I was driving cabs a couple years back, I had a regular passenger who I’d take to work and she always had a purse full of cash.  Trouble was, I could see the damage that the industry was doing to her.

      She was certainly attractive, and showed me some (tasteful) photos of herself before she started.

      She was eating even more crap than I do, had put on a mountain of weight, and was talking in ways that really caused me to worry about her mental health.

      I know she got out and went to Sydney, and I guess I hope she is doing alright.  She seemed like a nice person, but she seemed to be getting very damaged by her employment.

      That’s more what I worry about - for those mentally resilient enough to handle it, I’m sure it’s a very liberating and well-paid employment.  I’m just worried that those people are, like you Vivica, few and very far between.

    • Chris L says:

      03:34pm | 15/09/11

      Working in a call centre can have a similar effect.

    • Tubesteak says:

      03:58pm | 15/09/11

      How is that the fault of the industry as opposed to her own life choices?

      By your argument all dentistry should be abolished because dentists have one of the highest suicide and depression rates amongst all professions.

    • Silva says:

      09:41am | 15/09/11

      I’m a young feminist myself and have read all of Germaine Greer’s books….I must admit Germaines comments over the past few years are often not apropriate and sound very against men and not in the plight of women’s rights. However a true feminist does not hate men…I love men and have much respect for those who show it to me…Feminism is not about hating women in the sex industry either…Its about gender equality. That being said…
      There is nothing wrong with being a gorgeous looking women..I am one…I choose to liberate myself sexually in my own private life with my partner. I liberate myself through my artistic ventures as a painter..I liberate myself through my work..and my role as a mother…..I liberate myself as a woman by simply being myself regardless of whether I am accepted as sexy by society….and hopefully I will pass these traits onto my young daughter.

      I do have much respect for those women who feel it is genuinely liberating but this is not always the case. I work in community services and see many women who work in the sex industry and 9 times out of ten they feel far from liberated and its such a shame as they most of the time they are brilliant young women…who are much more than an object.

    • Jason G says:

      09:42am | 15/09/11

      Great article. Freedom of speech, freedom to choose…... Look forward to your next article

    • Ricky says:

      09:52am | 15/09/11

      I can’t understand the perception that “women who use their body for financial gain are sluts” because both men and women do that. Why is it you see healthy individuals on T.V and not someone who has some excessive weight? It’s all about appearance so who cares and besides the only difference between a stripper and myself is she takes her clothes off more regularly for insane cash.

      Even if I were called a slut for taking my clothes off for financial gain I would just chuckle at the moron looking down on me and explain the amount of money I get from my career and how fun it is.

      At the end of the day we’re all the same but we sure to love to categorize people into groups to demoralize and belittle them because they’re “different” to me so they must be a slut/freak/whore. When people begin to understand being men or women that we all just want to live and enjoy what we have and not what we are then people will get along.

      I am a “nerdy” individual so-to-speak but I can get along with “jocks/whores/sluts/queers” whoever because I don’t care about how someone decides to live THEIR life. This society needs to stop being so judgmental and just accept that people live different lives.

    • James1 says:

      09:54am | 15/09/11

      “There are a lot of strippers out there who take up the profession due to the money, flexibility, feeling gratified and having complete financial freedom.”

      I put it to you that it is possible to do and have all those things and at the same time maintain your dignity as well as continue to have those things once men no longer want to stare at your body due to the effects of aging. It might work for a while, but what will all those strippers do when they turn 35?  To consider this a valid career option displays a considerable lack of foresight.

    • Labs (d)rool!!! says:

      09:22am | 16/09/11

      What do sportspeople do once they turn 35?

    • Anna C says:

      10:07am | 15/09/11

      Vivica, if you are so liberated, comfortable with your choice of career and proud of standing on your own two feet as you say, then why do you feel the need to use a pseudonym. I’m assuming Vivica Delicious is not your real name.  Is it really because of the alleged threats and abuse that you say you receive or is it something else? Is it because of privacy concerns? Or maybe it’s because you’re not as liberated as you say you are and are ashamed of what your family, friends and acquaintances might think?

    • Erasmus says:

      11:32am | 15/09/11

      I don’t think it’s about privacy per se. It’s about maintaining cognitive dissonance between the public self and the private self.

    • PsychoHyena says:

      12:44pm | 15/09/11

      *sigh* Vivica Delicious would be her stage name, most likely, and is a character created by Vivica who is unconstrained by societal norms, more often than not the character displays all of the desires the person has without the constraints.

      Unless you have worked in the entertainment industry you wouldn’t understand, what Vivica does allows her to feel more emotion and have more experiences (sexual and otherwise) than the majority of people out there.

      I would suggest it would have less clout as an article if it was written by Miss Anne Smith than under her assumed name also.

    • LJ Dots says:

      07:39pm | 15/09/11

      @Anna C - ‘then why do you feel the need to use a pseudonym?’

      Who knows, perhaps you could ask yourself, me, Erasmus or PsychoHyena the same question.

    • Kassandra says:

      10:08am | 15/09/11

      Well sorry guys but I think this is a complete load of drivel. It has nothing to do with feminism or exploitation. Prostitution has been regarded as morally out of bounds for a lot longer than feminism has been around. What people think about sex, what they like to do (in private) and how much they find it gratifying or “empowering” (ugh) is one thing, but seeking money for it as a prostitute, stripper, “mistress” or whatever is another thing altogether.

      So this is a legitimate “job” or career choice? How pathetic. If my daughter went down this path I would never forgive myself for my failing her. What sort of UAI do you need to get into the sex industry anyway? Possibly a tad more than your shoe size?

    • Anna C says:

      10:54am | 15/09/11

      “What sort of UAI do you need to get into the sex industry anyway?”

      I don’t know about UAI’s but I’m sure 12 DD’s would sure come in handy.

    • Chris L says:

      05:44pm | 15/09/11

      Prostitution became regarded as morally out of bounds after the rise of Christianity. Before then, and I mean from the invention of bartering until the domination of Christianity, prostitution was a perfectly normal and appreciated profession. Being an actor was a more frowned upon profession.

    • Kassandra says:

      01:05pm | 16/09/11

      No that is not right, unless you regard slavery or life-threatening poverty for yourself and your children as “normal and appreciated”. The only “professionals” offering sex were courtesans, but many of them were not prostitutes.

      In most parts of the world most prostitutes in ancient times were slaves, and sexual slavery was a punishment for free women in ancient Rome and other places. Those women prostitutes who weren’t slaves came from and led impoverished lives and had no other means of survival. They did not do it out of choice. There were other groups of women who were available for sex though, priestesses of certain deities as part of their “religious” duties and courtesans (some of whom were prostitutes and some not) among others.

      During the early Middle Ages prostitution was tolerated by the Roman Catholic Church who held it to be less sinful than, and hoped it might lessen the practices of rape, sodomy and masturbation. Islam prohibited all forms of prostitution but sexual slavery was common. It became outlawed during the later Middle Ages in Europe by civil more than religious authorities who wanted poor prostitutes removed outside town walls. Attitudes against prostitution hardened further in Europe from the 15th C following epidemics of syphilis brought back from the New World. Prostitutes in Asia historically followed a similar divide between women who were slaves or impoverished on the one hand and more courtesan-type women of means (who did not necessarily provide sexual services) on the other.

      Christianity is not the main reason for the societal disapproval of prostitution even in Christian parts of the world. Historically it comes from the association with slavery and abject poverty, and the social disapproval of selling sex for money largely by unmarried women to married men (the Greek word for prostitute is porne, from pernemi [to sell]). .And btw being an opera singer was more frowned upon than being an actor.

    • Chris L says:

      07:58pm | 16/09/11

      Thank you for that Kassandra. It seems I have much to learn.

      I stand corrected.

    • Clare says:

      10:17am | 15/09/11

      Vivica, you may be a winner in this industry, but you are not in the majority. What is missing is any sense of value for your body or for sexuality other than monetary gain. Now you may be perfectly happy with that, but I think it speaks volumes for our greater values in society….important things are worth more than just money. When you are young, you think money is enough, it is only as you get older that you realise that it isn’t. Many women are exploited by the sex industry (Thailand anyone?), it would be crazy to pretend otherwise.  Raunch culture promotes the idea that a woman can use her sexual power to control her life, but I believe that is generally not something that is actually available to many women at all, if it is actually in fact more than a fantasy or wish fulfilment. That beauty and sexual power does not last. What does a woman do then? Before feminism, women were seen entirely as objects of male desire, and makers of babies. You can pretend that there was no restriction in that, and we don’t need to fear a return to that, but I think you would be very wrong. For those who are beautiful and have the self confidence necessary, I am sure there is much fairly instant gratification to be had by using those gifts. It doesn’t make it wise, or something that can work across the board for all women, or some new sort of liberation. It is what it is…

    • Tina says:

      10:27am | 15/09/11

      Are you really that confident and “liberated” that you dont hold your breath when you fill in a form and write “prostitute” in the occupation field? Or do you lie about it or put some nice other new term into it to make it sound better?

    • Anna C says:

      10:57am | 15/09/11

      I bet you she writes ‘entertainer’ on her forms. I wonder if she lodges a tax return????

    • Tina says:

      11:05am | 15/09/11

      Yeah, the tax return is tricky. How do invoice your customers? And if this whole thing is so “liberated” then why shouldnt be able to invoice someone for services rendered? If this is all so normal then why do your customers hide?

    • Gherkin says:

      10:30am | 15/09/11

      I love it when someone criticizes someone else for currently holding an “outdated” point of view.

    • MisKel says:

      10:35am | 15/09/11

      I have been fortunate enough to have read all of Viv’s blogs over the past 5+ years, and i have to say there IS a woman out there that is willing to discuss the real topics of women these days. Not the scrape the surface sexuality type stuff we saw of Carrie Bradshaw and in women’s magazines. But the deep face shielding “How can they do that!” raw side of sexuality.

      Its going to always be a very debated topic, But would it be conveyed differently even if written word by word by a man???  Most likely..
      And to Caz, Viv has had a large following for her blogging a long time before she started modelling, She is a very open and expressive woman who is definitely not afraid to tell it like it is to who ever it is, as you have seen lately.. she doesn’t need a photograph to get a following of male fans. Viv’s blogs are aimed at both women and men alike and come from experience and fact, not fiction.

      There are a lot of perspectives on the subject, but the main point here is Women’s liberation, not taboo in the 21st Century… Sex is out there now days in every shape and form and if someone is out there to ‘rock the boat’ and have a say about the “taboo” and their own form of “liberation”  GOOD FOR THEM! Its time for people to be educated in the oldest form of human nature!

      Viv! You just keep being the person you are! And congrats on a great topic!

    • Zaf says:

      10:37am | 15/09/11

      A general question:

      Why do so many articles (and responses!) published on Punch about the sex industry (sex work, pornography) focus solely on the heterosexual side of it and then draw broad conclusions about pornograhy and sex work rather than about heterosexuality?

      There are TWO sides to pornography and sex work (at least) - gay and straight.  Surely you need to look at both before drawing any conclusions about pornography and sex work.

      Can anybody explain?

    • Tina says:

      10:50am | 15/09/11

      Do I whinge because the picture doesnt include a blonde woman although I am one and I am sure it refers to blonde women as well?

    • AdamC says:

      10:57am | 15/09/11

      How different are they, really, Zaf?

      Aside from the silly gender wars angle, I don’t think that there is much of a distinction. Mind you, gay men who have to pay for sex must be really hard up!

    • St. Michael says:

      11:48am | 15/09/11

      @ AdamC:

      “Mind you, gay men who have to pay for sex must be really hard up!”

      If that was an intentional pun, well played, sir.

    • Zaf says:

      12:36pm | 15/09/11

      @ Tina

      [Do I whinge because the picture doesn’t include a blonde woman although I am one and I am sure it refers to blonde women as well?]

      Can women of colour validly object to an white middle class feminist perspective that assumes it speaks for ALL women?

      Replace white middle class privilege with heterosexual privilege, and you’ll see where I’m coming from.  Some things may be the same.  Some things may be different.  Why do you *assume* that everything that matters is the same, and that therefore your view is normative? 

      Perhaps some people are genuinely different from you, and your issues are not always universal.

      @ AdamC

      [How different are they, really, Zaf?

      Aside from the silly gender wars angle, I don’t think that there is much of a distinction.]

      There’s probably very little difference (apart from the obvious) in the mechanics of the sex work and pornography, but there’s big difference in how men and many women (apparently) broadly perceive it and experience it in society.

      For example: I have never met a gay man who seriously felt objectified or demeaned by gay porn. Not. One.

      How do straight people perceive and experience straight porn.  Some women find it demeaning and degrading to them, whether they act in it or not. (In fact apparently usually when they don’t act in it.)  But again, I have never met a straight guy who felt demeaned or degraded by straight porn – whether it features men in diapers being whipped or not. (Hey, I’m sure it’s out there!)

      Making broad generalisations – men and women seem to experience porn differently.  Does this say something about porn (if so, which pov do we choose and why?), or about how men and women experience the world differently? 

      Without making it a gender war thing.  And recognising that neither group is homogenous, there is going to be a diversity of opinion and world view in both groups.  Which jives with what the author says.

    • Paul Horn says:

      02:55pm | 15/09/11

      Good point Zaf women or feminists perceive hetero porn as demeaning to women because it involves heterosexual sex. Any heterosexual sex is aggressively opposed by all feminists simply on the basis that any interaction with the male is a form of oppression!

      They say nothing of gay male or lesbian sex except that for the latter straight hetero males are most likely the viewers and would therefore be opposed.

      Pornography basically vicitmises men pure and simple. Huge numbers of men are sex addicts. This causes absolute havoc in their intimate relationships with women and contributes greatly to an unsatisfactory sex life with their partner. 

      It also increases a mans desire to seek extramarital encounters. Porn creates a masive imbalance in a mans natural sex urge. Many men prefer to masturbate over pornographic imagery than have sexual relations with a woman. I believe John Meyer has made a statement indicating this to be his preference.

      I know numbers of sex addicted men and many are suicidal over their lack of control and the destruction it has wrought in their relationships.

      The internet has made this perfidious condition a major problem and one we will be grieving the rewards for many years to come!

    • Zaf says:

      04:41pm | 15/09/11

      @ Paul Horn

      That wasn’t exactly what I was saying, but if you have an addition issue, I think you should get help instead of let it make you miserable. jmho.

    • Chris L says:

      05:55pm | 15/09/11

      Zaf, I suspect it comes down to “female sexuality = good/ male sexuality = bad!”.

    • Zaf says:

      10:25pm | 15/09/11

      @ Chris L

      It isn’t safe off the pedestal, but the pedestal isn’t a human place. 

      It’s insidiously awful.  For women.  Whether they stay on it or not, or end up with one foot on the pedestal and the other on the ground.  Meh!  My sympathies, ladies.

    • Stephen says:

      10:52am | 15/09/11

      Old school feminists have a great deal more to answer for than simply making sex workers, models and strippers feel a sense of shame. The damage to the social fabric imposed by women who’s views were distorted and perverted by sociophobic, confrontational harridans runs much deeper. It has created social division, it has imposed one form of discrimination with another, more insidious version, it has promulgated deception, and worse, has applied no small effort in making men feel inappropriate guilt for no reason but vengeance.

      Old school feminists are a blight on a fair and just community, and one can only hope that men and women alike wake up to their “class war” mentality, and work together to achieve balance and harmony that has been rendered impossible while these hapless harpies screech “Sexism” at every opportunity.

      Their day is done. Their exclusionary, combative and judgmental idealism is now an anachronism. Their services are no longer required.

    • Shane says:

      11:48am | 15/09/11

      Sorry @Stephen but it is your services that are no longer required.
      Bitter,  “Woe is me” complaining about how men are so hard done by because women want to have choices.
      Your time is done - and please take Erick and John with you.

    • Stephen says:

      02:05pm | 15/09/11

      Is that right, Shane. Are you an apologist for the rabid feminists? You apparently did not read my post. My point was that society as a whole, not just men, have suffered from this scourge. Are you also naive enough to think that it is simply about women having choices?

      It seems that the Vivica made a choice,  but you don’t seem to respect it. The point of the article is clear; women have suffered just as much at the hands of militant, old-school feminism as men.

      Look around, Shane? Is this the better world that Greer and her cadres promised? Is this a fair and better community we live in? Are people happier, better adjusted, and comfortable in their gender roles?

      Or do you think that as long as women can make a choice, that is all that matters?

    • Demoman says:

      03:07pm | 15/09/11

      Shane thinks being a male feminist makes him attractive to women and is desperate for a few crumbs off the table.

    • Chris W says:

      10:55am | 15/09/11

      Actually, Anna C, I know Viv’s parents and they are very proud of her and support what she does 100%. As to her friends supporting her, I’m one of many that fully support her 100% and couldn’t be prouder, and wouldn’t change a thing about her smile

      Also, have you never heard of DJs, models and others in the entertainment industry using pseudonyms? Hate to break it to you, but “50 cent’ isn’t his real name wink

    • Shane says:

      11:52am | 15/09/11

      So, @Chris W, Viv’s parents are very proud and support what she does, hey? Wow. Unfortunately, that says far more about Viv than her words. 

      Having said that, I’d love to see the Christmas letters mum and dad send to their family and friends.

    • Anna C says:

      12:03pm | 15/09/11

      Yes Chris W, but if she is so proud and liberated by what she does why does she need a pseudonym. What’s wrong with using her real name? Is it not sexy enough? I suppose her clients would much rather sleep with a Ms. Delicious rather than Ms. Smith.  Her real name would kind of break the mystique and kill the mood I guess. 

      Chris W, why are you so proud of what she does? Since when is sleeping with men for cash something to be proud of? It’s not like she’s finding a cure for cancer for god’s sakes.

    • Anna C says:

      12:10pm | 15/09/11

      Yes Chris W, but if she is so proud and liberated by what she does why does she need a pseudonym. What’s wrong with using her real name? Is it not sexy enough? I suppose her clients would much rather sleep with a Ms. Delicious rather than Ms. Smith.  Her real name would kind of destroy the mystique and kill the mood I guess. I’m sure her clients prefer not to think about the fact that they are hiring someone’s daughter or sister to sleep with them for money. They much prefer the fantasy which is Ms. Delicious.   

      Chris W, why are you so proud of what she does? Since when is sleeping with men for cash something to be proud of? It’s not like she’s finding a cure for cancer for god’s sakes.

    • Chris W says:

      12:28pm | 15/09/11

      Well actually Shane, it just shows that she has supportive parents.. isn’t that what any son or daughter wants, their parents to support them and be proud? Just because they and Viv have a different opinion to you, doesn’t make them or her a lower person in society, nor does it mean you’re better than them.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      12:33pm | 15/09/11

      Anna
       
      pretty much everyone in the kink scene uses a nick. For some it is because they need to protect their identity (either from work, family/kids or similar), for others it is just a bit of fun. 
       
      Don’t forget, even if *you* have no hang-ups about it, people about whom you care may be affected by bigots and close-minded individuals.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:43pm | 15/09/11

      “I suppose her clients would much rather sleep with a Ms. Delicious rather than Ms. Smith.  Her real name would kind of break the mystique and kill the mood I guess.”

      Odds are on the reason she has a pseudonym are largely the same as most people taking pseudonyms, including entertainers, do so: because it allows the person a measure of security so that:
      (a) disturbed people
      (b) holy rollers
      (c) reporters
      (d) any combination of the above
      do not constantly turn up on her doorstep making nuisances of themselves.  Like it or not, that is a feature of her chosen profession which is unique due largely to the nature of the job.  It’s not that much different to safety vests for blokes working on the mines.

      It’s also there because it’s a marketing tool, if you’ll pardon the expression.  Odds are on when perusing the phone book you’re more likely to read, remember, or even call Vivica Delicious for all your sub/dom needs than plain old Angela Smith.

      Taking a pseudonym does not connote inner shame over your profession.  It is merely something that you have to do in your chosen job as it is to wear a tie in the corporate world.  Just because I wear a curious shred of cloth around my neck that suggests a rather colourful noose does not mean I am ashamed to be in my job.  It’s merely something I’m more or less required to have so I can get on in my chosen career.

    • Chris W says:

      12:53pm | 15/09/11

      Anna C, you seem to be misguided. At no stage did Viv say that she sleeps with men for money… She’s merely defending the rights of other women (and men) to do so, and who are quite happy doing it. You might want to re-read her article sweety smile

      Why am I proud of her? Because she tells it like it is, doesn’t take sh*t from anyone, and is happy to express her own views and opinions without fearing reprisals from people like you.. and also, have you seen her fetish photos? Phew! They make me hot under the collar and I’m gay wink

      By the way, when you get your first article on The Punch, I’ll be proud of you too smile Go get em tiger!

    • Anna C says:

      12:54pm | 15/09/11

      Tony of Poorakistan is that supposed to be a hint? Maybe we should start calling you ‘Kinky Tony of Poorakistan’ instead? Ha ha ha.

    • Shane says:

      12:55pm | 15/09/11

      Actually @Chris W, my comment was not about the sex industry. It was about bad parenting. The idea her mother and father are cheering her on to work in an industry that destroys lives (despite her rose coloured view on the matter) is stomach turning.

      I am sure it’s not a fashionable view in your mind or their (allegedly) empowered environment, but there you have it. Am I judging them and their parenting? You betcha.

    • Lyn says:

      03:04pm | 15/09/11

      So because Vivica takes her clothes off and poses in perocative positions for the camera, this makes her parents bad parents? Vivica may be submissive but she does NOT earn a living from sex. If you read her Facebook she makes this very clear. She has ties to the sex industry but has never once taken money for sex. Sex and the Fetish scene for her is a lifestyle choice. And bringing her parents into it is pretty rude to say the least. Any parents who support their daughter with whatever choice they make are a winner in my eyes. Standing by your child no matter and not rejecting them is REAL parenting.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      03:17pm | 15/09/11

      Anna

      I’ve been caning naughty girls’ bottoms (and tying them up, pouring hot wax on them and other things I wouldn’t share in a family forum such as this) for years.
       
      And, as an aside, DSM V has de-pathologised BDSM so that you are no longer thought to have a mental disorder if you are a fetishist, transvestite, sadist or masochist, so I’m officially normal.

      The kink scene has a wonderfully diverse cross-section of the wider community. Yes, there are a lot of sluts (*ahem* , I mean sexually liberated women), but there are also a lot of monogamous couples. And everything in between.

    • Jade says:

      11:00am | 15/09/11

      My Mum recently just left a job as Manager in one of the top brothels on the Gold Coast and from stories she has told me my thoughts are:

      1. Most, if not all of the women there do the work purely for the money, where else can you get paid so much for opening your legs?
      2. A lot really don’t like doing it that much, having sex with multiple men in a night = some very sore hoohoo’s come the end of your shift. Although the plus would be most men are either that drunk/drugged up (having just rocked up from Surfers Paradise) that they can’t get it up anyway.
      3. A few do have daddy issues/previous history of abuse - be that drug, sexual or physical/mental.
      4. A lot do it behind their husbands/families backs.

      I don’t feel that these women are liberating themselves. I am in no way a feminist but I feel sorry for anyone who works in this industry as it really isn’t pleasant.

    • Fiona says:

      09:12pm | 15/09/11

      Jade, that’s probably the most honest post yet.

    • progressivesunite says:

      11:00am | 15/09/11

      Good for you… and how dishonest. Not everyone in the ‘sex industry’ has such a positive experience of it. There are women in the industry (and girls….) who are degraded, assaulted, treated like dirt etc and get into the ‘work’ because there’s not much else for them after childhood abuse or whatever.  But the men who buy them don’t care about them as humans, so it doesn’t matter.

      Articles like yours are leapt on with glee by men who want to pat themselves on the back that the $50 meth addict last night “loved it”, when really, she was probably trying not to vomit. There are different sides to the ‘sex industry’ - you could do worse than be honest about that….

    • Conservatives Unite! says:

      11:40am | 15/09/11

      I was going to say something like “Oh, don’t act like you don’t love it, babe.” But then, given that I generally agree with you, that would have been a bit gratuitous.

      I see the sex industry in much the same way as I see drugs. Neither are especially good for anyone, but it is better to regulate and tax them than to try to enforce prohibition.

    • progressivesunite says:

      12:39pm | 15/09/11

      Yeah I think the regulation thing is important - it seems like the best way to try to ensure that people in the industry at least have some protections rather than everything being underground.

      I just think there are some very vulnerable folk out there (including teenage boys, btw) who do get exploited and their experiences shouldn’t just be dismissed by more empowered people in the industry who talk about ‘choice’ etc.

    • gra gra says:

      11:01am | 15/09/11

      It has always, well since Germaine raised genuine issues back in the day, been my humble opinion that the ‘feminists’  have no compunction about wearing clothes made in sweatshops staffed by female slave labor.
      I might be well out of order here, (I don’t have a feminist mind), but it seems to me that an issue of that magnitude has more relevance to ‘liberating’ women than whether they should be allowed to take their clothes off to get a quid.
      Our society goes berserk if a muslim shiela covers herself up, (but not so one of the ‘Brides of Christ’), and equally berserk if some girl who choses to do so, strips naked.  They like a happy medium, (but not a drunk psychic).
      It’s all so confusing.
      Are all women evil, or just the ones Erick knows? Are all women good until men turn them around? I dunno.
      What I do know is this :  Everybody should be able to do whatever they choose as long as that choice does no harm to anyone else, intentionally.
      And if we do wrong we should be prepared to accept responsibility for our actions. Without complaint.
      Done!

    • Shane says:

      11:56am | 15/09/11

      Interesting points, gragra but not on feminist clothing. There is no doubt women in third world sweat shops have better conditions than the women in third world brothels. Also, try finding clothes these days that were NOT made by people in third world countries.

    • Zaf says:

      03:03pm | 15/09/11

      [There is no doubt women in third world sweat shops have better conditions than the women in third world brothels.]

      Actually, a study of sex workers in India last year found that a significant proportion of female sex workers had moved to that profession from domestic work (ie being maids, or cooks).  The reason given for the move: better money, less arduous work.  fwiw.

    • james hunter says:

      11:06am | 15/09/11

      I have amoung my friends two girls who are in the sex for dollars industry. They are both well off financially well educated and well travelled. They are two of the most well adjusted people one could hopew to meet and love the money the freedom and strange as it may seem the people they meet. They are both very carefull where and how they work . Only one thing in life gets them going and that is the religious cranks who simply have no idea.

    • Tina says:

      11:21am | 15/09/11

      What does this have to do with religion? Sure, most religious people are not in support of prostitution, but there are more people who have a decent set of values.

    • Ricky says:

      11:51am | 15/09/11

      Tina you have to be the most opinionated woman of this century. I read the comments and see your comment in nearly every response. Are you that unhappy with yourself or the conditions your living in that you result to just blindly object to everything? My god let the people be. Take a step back and look at yourself with your “blonde” hair and stop pointing your nose up high.

      This article was fascinating and insightful in many aspects and look forward to further articles from you Vivi. Your past has no relevance to the present you. Well done

    • Tina says:

      12:05pm | 15/09/11

      @ Ricky

      Very fair. I get a bit carried away on the topic (understatement). I can be every mans (and womans) nightmare when I sometimes cant just shut up.

      I am actually brunette.

    • Anna C says:

      12:45pm | 15/09/11

      I love it how nobody here admits to having friends in the sex industry who are either forced into it or junkies doing it to fund their drug habit. No of course not ... they are all just doing it for the money or love what they’re doing according to some people commenting here. Yeah right. I don’t think most people work in that industry because they choose to, regardless of what Vivica says. I think people like her are in the minority.

      I heard recently that the number of women working as prostitutes in America has increased massively due to the GFC. Do you really think that these women freely chose to work in sex industry? I seriously doubt it. They do it to survive and to put food on the table for their children.

    • PsychoHyena says:

      01:20pm | 15/09/11

      Anna, chances are those that have been forced into prostitution don’t open up about it. I’m sure I’ve probably met both men and women who were forced into it, however the majority of them that I know were in it for the money, as in they enjoyed sex and figured they might as well get paid for it.

    • Fiona says:

      09:26pm | 15/09/11

      Anna C, I’ll be the first. I knew a Couple of girls that were junkies that turned to prostition to support their habit. I also knew a guy that was a male prostitue as well. I also went to uni with a poor little rich girl who turned to it in her last year, f*^ked up finishing her degree and ended up on the drugs too. A girl I went through primary and high school with starting off being a stripper and ended up on the drugs and a prostitute. She also ended up in jail at some stage.
      There’s more, but that’s enough I think. Oh and it’s not BS either before anyone calls it.

    • ibast says:

      11:43am | 15/09/11

      I went to a picnic last weekend with a bunk of feminist.  It was terrible.  Nobody made sandwiches.

    • ibast says:

      11:58am | 15/09/11

      Bunch!  Bunch!

    • fairsfair says:

      12:08pm | 15/09/11

      lol, thought for a secong that “bunk” was perhaps the collective noun…

      I like it.

      LOL

    • gra gra says:

      01:00pm | 16/09/11

      Feminist ‘bunk’? Sounds reasonable.

    • Erasmus says:

      11:43am | 15/09/11

      If the comments so far have proved anything, it’s that Suzy and Fiona from Eros Foundation are extremely well organised. There publicity machine meant comments have been completely controlled from the start in favour of their industry group, the Eros Association. The big bill payers behind them are seeing great value for their dollar.

    • Chris L says:

      06:06pm | 15/09/11

      It’s all a conspiracy!

    • richard.perin@gmail.com says:

      11:59am | 15/09/11

      Vivica = Hot. LMFAO.

    • Shama says:

      12:10pm | 15/09/11

      Women getting money and power through sex. That’s about as old as the hills.  Hetaerae and courtesans were about as powerful as women got in the past.

      I think old school feminists had a little more in mind when it came to women’s empowerment.  A life of the mind was what was denied to women in the past, not a life of the body (you want to be viciously attacked - try being a really brainy woman).  Instead we have a steady coverage of sexy women as proof of empowerment making it seem that biology will be your destiny if you are a woman.

      But its very poor form to call anyone a fat and ugly whore.  Part of old school feminism is to remove such derogatory terms, to remove the idea that women who employ sex are somehow the fallen folk.  That woman is no radical feminist.

    • Danielle says:

      12:20pm | 15/09/11

      As a woman, I completely suppport the notion of personal freedom and choice.

      However, this article is fundamentally missing a crucial point: just because I can respect your right to choose, does not mean I have to respect your choice.

      And the idea that feminism is “outdated” is ridiculous. Consider the fact that for the women and girls in the world who are victims of sex trafficking, they are not enjoying the rights and freedoms that women in predominantly Western countries have.

    • BJ says:

      04:31pm | 15/09/11

      Absolutely right! It is a bit much for people to champion freedom of choice but define which opinions that we are allowed to hold about those choices.
      My favourite feminsts have a sociologist’s perspective and will analyse the context of every choice. They don’t just applaud every decision that every woman makes to appear non-judgemental.

    • neo says:

      12:35pm | 15/09/11

      Nothing like a bit of girl on girl action.

    • jade (the other one) says:

      12:50pm | 15/09/11

      Vivica, its great that you feel liberated, and that your experiences in the sex industry have led to you and some of your compatriots feeling more empowered and positive.

      The reason that many of the stereotypes exist however, is that for many women in the sex industry, the reality that you as an educated woman in a country with a high standard of living experiences in the industry is far different from that of many women in that industry. There are still huge and unresolved problems related to the exploitation of women in this industry, particularly women from poor, uneducated backgrounds, or the third world.

      When all women in your industry are there by choice, as you are, and the exploitation that exists in your industry is minimised or non-existent, then attitudes will be more likely to change.

      Were the clarion call to go after those in your industry responsible for the exploitation of young women to be trumpeted by workers such as yourself, I would have a far greater respect for the workers in the industry. It seems though, that they would rather hide the problems, or ignore them out of either fear, or a need to deny the very real tragedies experienced by many.

      But to imply, as your article does, that because YOU have never been exploited in the industry, that such exploitation is not a pervasive and problematic issue, is similar to the Senegalese rapper Akon suggesting that because he had never seen the exploitation associated with conflict diamonds, that this scourge on the diamond trade was a fiction.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:50pm | 15/09/11

      I might note here in an economic sense that branded products and target markets versus commodities make a difference as well.  Yes, economics!

      See, in economic terms, if you offer a niche product (pardon the expression) to a smaller target audience, you are in effect offering a brand to people.  A Ferrari is not sold in the general marketplace because it’s a branded car, the name itself carries enormous perceived value to its intended buyer.  A branded product can command a premium price for that reason.

      Applying that to actual sexual activities rather than Freudian substitutes, being a brand or commanding a premium price, in the case of prostitution or the sex industry at large, allows the seller greater control of the situation.

      In short, if you’re the only foot fetish speciality prostitute in a whole state, you can allow for a smaller client base that wants that particular product and is willing to pay a premium for the brand, as it were, and because that client base only wants that brand, so to speak, you have better control of the financial transaction—“Make sure you wear deodorant, and I have the right to kick your ass out if I find a wart on genital inspection.”

      Straight “commodity” prostitution is much less capable of imposing these restrictions because of straight customer choice: if you’re catering to men who want sex, any sex, you are competing with the rest of the world’s oldest profession and the customer base will gravitate to the cheapest price, just as with any other commodity like fruit, vegetables (and now we’re getting a bit strange).  Similar goes for “desperation” prostitution, since the person’s negotiating power is much less and therefore their capacity to impose restrictions or make a brand is much less as well: a prostitute in it to support a drug habit is much less likely to impose restrictive conditions on selling sex because they’ve allowed the power in the transaction to revert to the buyer: no sex, no cash, no drug.

      Therefore, women who are in prostitution by choice, or those in the paid sex industry to service a particular niche (which Vivica seems to be—she describes herself as a submissive to a dominatrix, though whether it’s paid or not is equivocal due to very careful writing on her part) are naturally better able to control their work conditions and their prosperity than women in prostitution who are there perceiving no other choice.  Someone who says “everyone around me chose to go into prostitution and I don’t have anyone who had bad experiences as a result” is only seeing half the equation.

    • Jade (the other one) says:

      02:59pm | 15/09/11

      St. Michael, I don’t doubt that Vivica is an empowered and liberated woman who is making an active choice to sell a niche product. All I am saying is that she is fortunate enough to have the education and advantage that enables her to be powerful within her industry.

      And I personally find it disconcerting that because SHE has all the advantages of education and choice, and evidently so have her colleagues, she attempts to silence legitimate criticism about the pervasive problems in the industry for those who are not as fortunate.

      That she has made this active choice to celebrate her sexuality is laudable. That she implies that legitimate criticism of an industry well-known to exploit vulnerable, uneducated women, and to imply that this is not a pervasive problem is not. Her article asks us not to consider the plight of those in this industry, seemingly because it makes her uncomfortable that the industry she willingly and enthusiastically associates herself with does indeed have a dark side involving the coercion and enslavement of those who have not chosen this career path willingly. Better to ignore these problems than confront them.

    • marley says:

      01:11pm | 15/09/11

      I think it’s ironic.  Advocates for the world’s oldest profession are calling feminists “old school.”

    • monkeytypist says:

      01:27pm | 15/09/11

      Can you provide citations for the “assumptions” you’re positing here Vivica?

    • Debbie Does says:

      01:36pm | 15/09/11

      OMG.  Talk about some bizarre attitudes.

      Anyone - man, woman, feminist or rabid right wing religious nut - who dares to make assumptions about my sexuality or emotional health based on my occupation is way off base.  My choice to work in the sex industry is not because I have no other options.  I have a post graduate education, a loving and supportive family and a strong sense of social justice.  Those people who sit back from outside the sex industry and pontificate at length about how damaged we are, how awful the clients are and how we must have been sexually abused as children - I am telling you now, you are really, really wrong. 
      When you take in the entire sex industry - not just the most highly visible street workers - we have no higher rate of drug use than the average aussie.  Most of us are working to support a family where the other partner is absent or unemployed.  Many of us are students working our way through a degree.  Some of us - a minority - are those with few choices and major drug problems.  So are some of the women I worked with in the public service :|
      So - next time you go to slag us off - just think….we are everywhere.  We *could* be sitting at the next computer wink

    • Tina says:

      02:20pm | 15/09/11

      But you obviously keep it secret.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:55pm | 15/09/11

      And, in continuation of my “economic superiority provides more options and therefore more control of the transaction” theme, Debbie, are you working the street?

    • progressivesunite says:

      01:47pm | 15/09/11

      What gets me is that the “industry” knows there are lots of tragic cases but it’s bad PR for them, so they pretend bad things don’t happen and anyone who points out that they do happen, is labelled an ‘old school feminist’ or a freak who wants to ‘shame men’s sexuality’ or ‘shame prostitutes who love what they do’ etc.

      The industry’s lack of concern for the many exploited people in it is what is genuinely shameful…and that goes double for the men who don’t care why the prostitute they use is in the industry, what’s been done to her, whether she’s being coerced, whether they’re bloke number 20 tonight and she’s actually in pain, whether she’s really an adult etc etc. They don’t ask, because she’s not a person to them.

      The industry and its clientele exploit vulnerable women and girls (and boys…) - but don’t point it out, because that might spoil the “fun”.

    • Anna C says:

      02:03pm | 15/09/11

      Vivica claims to love what she does. Regardless of whether I really believe her or not I think anyone who gets paid to do what they love is very lucky.  I only wish I could get paid to eat chocolate all day.

    • Lyn says:

      02:40pm | 15/09/11

      Anna, did you read the article properly? Vivica never claimed once that she has sex for money. She is a fetish model, a sex writer and if you do your research she works in an office during the day. She is merely defending the sex industry and the people she knows very well that are apart of it.

    • Tina says:

      02:52pm | 15/09/11

      Please, Lyn, Anna just made a sweet comment to lighten things up a little.

    • gra gra says:

      05:24pm | 16/09/11

      Anna C, you are such a dear.  You must, however, get yourself an agent. If you really, (really!!), wished to get paid to eat chocolate all day you could. As long as you spread it in the right place.

    • Ray says:

      02:30pm | 15/09/11

      Look, let’s cut to the chase. No one has to respect women’s choices. They’ve had more choices than the 50 cent punter and never brought home a winner.

      It was enough for me the other day when Ita Buttrose (or was that Bita Uttrose?) and the usual cultprits of a morning television show, discussed some book about women using their sexuality to gain promotion.

      Aghast, shock horror, the vehement denials of the endorsement by Bettina Arhndt of said principal. Aghast, shock, horror by all three diva protagonists..

      Here’s three very successful women belittling themselves for ‘the cause’, or just plain too sensitive to let another opinion lie. Or more likely a mentality that comes with the inferiority complex package, from birth.

      I mean how many comments here are talking of empowerment, liberation or some other idealism, Utopian objective. Basket cases the lot.

      Just like the deeply drawn intellectual vacuum associated with post modernist feminism (whatever that means). It is as ludicrous as having women’s studies at our Universities which can produce more thoroughbreds of the same mentality. Please Marley, Tina, Ann C, I sympathise with you. but particularly James the First, please don’t drag your mother,sister, daughter, grandmother into this enlightened discussion of supply and demand. It behoves their dignity.

    • James1 says:

      03:43pm | 15/09/11

      Why would I?  You haven’t gone out of your way to insult them this time.  Everything my mother, sisters, wife, grandmother and daughter have acheived has been on the basis of merit, and I don’t see you making blanket assertions about everyone with a vagina like you usually would.  You confined your criticism to where it is deserved.  Well done, Ray, and I concur wholeheartedly.

    • Chris L says:

      06:16pm | 15/09/11

      To be honest Ray, if any of my family members (male or female) were a prostitute I wouldn’t think any differently of them. Then again, I’m one of those few people who can acknowledge that his parents had sex without shuddering.

    • Ray says:

      07:08pm | 15/09/11

      Chris I think most of ‘em here were conceived under immaculate conception. Just ask ‘em. And I reckon your parents did shudder when they were having sex.

    • Chris L says:

      11:03am | 17/09/11

      @Ray - If they had known what the results would be they probably would have.

    • Ray says:

      02:45pm | 15/09/11

      Come on Vivica, please you need to publish my blog for a victory to perspective.

    • seniorcynic says:

      02:53pm | 15/09/11

      I wouldn’t mind shooting a few clay pigeons with the woman pictured at the start of the article.

    • Kate says:

      03:34pm | 15/09/11

      Vivica, this was a great article.
      I also think that feminists who judge women for making so-called ‘traditional’ choices are turning modern women away from the feminist cause. Women who want to be stay-at-home mums, or who genuinely look forward to being wives and homemakers, are not dumb or a threat to feminism - they’ve just made a different choice. I dropped out of a law degree to become a primary teacher and got engaged at age 22, and I’ve had feminist friends give me a hard time for not trying to ‘break the glass ceiling’ and playing into patriarchal society. I don’t see it that way - I’m just exercising my right to choose to do what I love. Feminism should be about choice and equality, not judgment.

    • Elizabeth1 says:

      07:07am | 16/09/11

      I agree.  My understanding of feminism was that it was all about having choices.  I am in two minds in regard to the sex industry.  I know of more than a few tragic stories for both young women and young men in the industry. If this is not just bravado, then I tend to think that young women like Vivica, who hold a genuine sense of self, can overcome the social sanctions and are able to maintain their own self determination and autonomy could be just what the sex industry needs. The sex industry is never going to go away while there is demand and there will always be demand.  Its not helpful to demean the people who work in this industry.  I imagine it could be a tough enough gig as it is.

    • Lyn says:

      01:08pm | 16/09/11

      I also agree. I think there’s only a small majority of us who actually understand what Vivica is trying to address here yet there are too many arrogant people who choose to only skim over this article and read what they want to read. I consider myself a feminist, but in no shape of form will I defend some of the views that the older generations have today by blanketing street sex workers with problems to the ones who work in safe brothels, strip clubs, sex shops etc.

    • Lyn says:

      03:55pm | 15/09/11

      For those poor sad people who are slagging off this poor young woman, I think you all need to do your research. Yes of course Vivica isn’t her real name as she prefers to keep her public life separate from her private life. Whilst she does talk about her experiences openly she prefers to keep some level of normality in her life which is held close to her. Many people in the fetish and modelling scene don’t use their real names. Secondly, she does not have sex for money whatsoever and it wasn’t even mentioned in this article so I do not understand how anyone could have possibly come to that conclusion. As having worked as a manager of a brothel in the past to then being a call girl, Vivica’s voice has represented many of us that hold this opinion. And last of all, Vivica is studying a University Degree, runs a small business, works casual in an office and interviews and researches subjects and people before she writes blogs. I’ve been following her for quite a few years online now and I can honestly say, she is a very good person. From what started on a discussion on a topic it’s saddening to see some of you blatantly putting someone down because of their difference in opinion. Some of you have done nothing put prove the point she was trying to make at the end of her piece.

    • Simon Waller says:

      04:18pm | 15/09/11

      And everyone did what was right in their own eyes!

    • right turn only says:

      04:31pm | 15/09/11

      Conservative males think that the future of feminism is islam !
      Liberal males think that the future of feminism is pornography and prostitution.
      Man eating barflies think that the future of feminism is subservience to males,magic with males in bed, child minding and domestic chores.
      In Sociology, there are four distinct schools of feminism of which conservative feminism , liberal feminism and radical feminism are but three types of the four feminist schools.I cannot remember the four feminist school of the four feminist schools

    • Erasmus says:

      04:56pm | 15/09/11

      Given the paucity of research provided by the author, I thought I’d look for some proper psychological studies done amongst sex workers.

      One bit of decent qualitative research amongst a base of 26 subjects by Harold Greenwald in New York. The findings were published by Ballantines in his book, The Call Girl.

      And what did he find? This quote from the review in Time Magazine is pretty illuminating:

      “Without exception, the girls felt worthless and insecure. Though they paraded in mink coats and made a point of being seen riding in Cadillacs from expensive apartments in the best parts of town, they were forever afraid that the world was ready to laugh at them. To dull their anxiety they sought relief in drink (though none was technically an alcoholic); 15 used marijuana, and six took to heroin. Said one: “Being a call girl helped me overcome my inferiority complex. I used to feel very unattractive to men, but since so many of them want to pay me ... I guess I can’t be all that unattractive.” Largely because of their uncertainty about father and mother. 15 of the 20 had homosexual relations. None of the girls had any capacity for solid friendships, sought out friends who were unstable because of similar emotional conflicts.”

      I can’t think why the findings would be much different in Sydney or Melbourne.

      Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,893889,00.html#ixzz1Y08cM8ll

    • St. Michael says:

      05:10pm | 15/09/11

      It’s not a bad attempt, Erasmus, but I think the problem is the sample and its size, as the article points out:

      “Greenwald’s is a highly specialized sample from the profession’s top economic stratum. Six call girls went to him for analysis; he personally interviewed ten more; and ten others (too gun-shy to face him) were interviewed by three of the call girls themselves.”

      This is a total of 26 prostitutes out of presumably hundreds or even thousands.  Each of the 26 sought analysis—i.e. they are all confessing to a mental issue.  And the idea that it’s the profession’s “top tier” is a strange assertion when you read into the article that they made between $20 and $100.  That’s a hell of a lot less than you’d pay for a high-class escort in Sydney, let alone New York.

      On the other hand, the indication of the defence mechanisms used to rationalise or justify their actions makes for interesting reading in light of some of the responses above.

    • St. Michael says:

      05:20pm | 15/09/11

      Further to the entire debate, covering not just female but also male prostitution, this 2005 study seems a bit more in-depth into the subject: http://www.bayswan.org/New_Directions_prost.pdf

      Note in particular this quote from that study:

      “Workers’ psychological well-being is associated with a range of structural
      factors, including their education, control over working conditions, resources
      for protection, and client base. As Lucas (1998: 320) concluded from her
      interviews with escorts and call girls, these women had the “financial, social,
      and emotional wherewithal to structure their work largely in ways that suited
      them and provided . . . the ability to maintain healthy self-images.” In sum,
      although certain aspects of the work are disliked, indoor workers are more
      likely than street prostitutes to describe positive aspects of their work.”

      These are all rational economic factors, as I’ve been saying.  Indoor workers have greater control of the transaction.  They have more power in the transaction.  Therefore they are able to engage in it on a more level playing field than their colleagues on the sidewalks.

    • bec says:

      10:31pm | 15/09/11

      Stop it. Now you’re just asserting that life experience is dependent upon more than one variable. That’s crazy talk.

    • Right turn only says:

      06:05pm | 15/09/11

      Balls Please, men !
      Else just get lost !

    • Ray says:

      06:28pm | 15/09/11

      FFS I didn’t realise that so many had a blue ribbon doctorate with honours in prostitution. Friggin feminism, empowerment, discrimination, liberation and make for a collective waste of time.

      Just look at ‘em all on this blog. Gone into intellectual stagnation on a matter that’s like breathing fresh air. although that’s getting rarer with the amount of bullshit here.

      Talk about women coming out from under their mushroom to exhaust themselves on a topic that can be expressed in three words or less.

      Talk about taking yourself too seriously.

      It is the predominant female trait on which they wile away half their life, with hand wringing self endorsement spurned by over analysis of matters of which only they give a shit..

      Football tomorrow night. Races Saturday.

    • Fiona says:

      09:39pm | 15/09/11

      Well you’ve certainly given us more than 3 words…..

    • St. Michael says:

      10:30pm | 15/09/11

      ...just say no?

    • Nicole says:

      06:52pm | 15/09/11

      Well it all seems to me that the majority of feminists of todays age are the new sexist pigs, do they really think that calling another female a whore for working in the sex industry is going to make a male respect that female?
      Really, you have got it wrong.

      Is it that hard to let women work in an industry they want to, while NOT feeling like bottom of the barrel shit, and just leave them to it? Honestly, you have some issues if you feel the need to slander those of the sex industry before you even bother to do some leg work and talk to the ladies who work in the adult entertainment sector.

      If you feel intimated by these women for their looks/their power or what have you, you are the one who has a problem and need to spend time looking at you and your life and why you feel the need to scream “whore”.

      You are the disgusting ones.

    • Servaas says:

      08:46pm | 15/09/11

      This writer is quite out of touch with reality, fact wise I mean. Feeling liberated is no grounds for argument or to push your view. I understand that she has been hurt by slurs thrown at her and her peers but unfortunately the reality is that all girls who ‘celebrate their liberation’ does fuel the idea that girl’s ahven’t much value outside of sex. It degrades women regardless of the intentions of individual pole dancers or strippers.

      The men who rape and disrespect women are fully to blame but we can’t look past the fact that they are products of a culture, and that culture is kept alive by porn, strip clubs, brothels, other erotic media and the entry level to it all are these Sports Illustrated Swimwear type efforts paraded so innocently.

      Scream about your freedom and choice all you like, tell me it’s the 21st century (the worst argument, always) reality is reality.

    • uhuh says:

      12:15pm | 16/09/11

      couldn’t have said it better myself.
      this article needs actual and thorough research rather than simply regurgitating the opinions of a few people as fact.

    • Lyn says:

      01:01pm | 16/09/11

      It’s an opinion piece from someone who works in the adult industry based on the facts that she has sourced from a lot of people she knows that work in it as well. That’s not to say that everyone will agree. It’s also funny that no one has bothered to respect the other women here who have made comments about previously working in the sex industry with positive experience either. I think it’s people like you that only read what you want to read/see/hear because of your own opinions getting in the way.  These are women who have opened up publicly who have said they don’t want to be lumped in the same basket as everyone else yet the other side won’t listen.

    • rosinki says:

      09:06pm | 15/09/11

      At the end of the day you have to laugh because they’re dancing naked around a pole for cash.

      It can’t be very liberating if your only option to make good money is within the sex industry. I agree with @james1 about there being a lack of foresight when choosing this career. Surely it would be more liberating for these people if they had the added choice of having a well paid job that extended past their 35th birthday (and not with the sex industry). If this were an option I imagine these girls would be content with hanging up her stripper shoes.

    • Kristyle says:

      10:59pm | 15/09/11

      What makes you think you are a model? Do you have a photographer friend who takes your picture in too small lycra and you post them on facebook? Well, arnt you the minority? Everyone does that. You are a good writer but unfortunately you are a small minority. Great writers consider all perspectives. You feel you are not exploited. You are the minority; most people in the sex industry are exploited. You obviously dont take cash for sex but you fail to realize that while you have good intentions people see the sex industry and their workers as objects. You may feel empowered but men are empowering themselves while they are using your pictures for ‘personal use’. You are an intelligent young women who should feel empowered by something else. Please keep pursing your dreams as a writer and not a mistress sub or whatever that. Tell me when you fill in forms for a doctor etc are you proud to say fetish ‘mode’ (LMFAO)? Maybe you like the term entertainer or public figure? Ha, go figure!

    • nikki says:

      02:01pm | 16/09/11

      Before you go jumping to conclusions about people, maybe do a little research on them first.
      And I can tell you this, VivD is proud of being a fetish MODEL and is damn good at it, so she has no shame in telling people or filling out forms with this…but keep in mind fet modelling is not her only job, you’ve read this article written by her so that is obvious.

      You are clearly a person who speaks before they think, so next time keep that in mind. You leave yourself coming across as a sub educated being.

      P.s…Viv doesn’t adorn herself in cheap and nasty materials such as lycra, try upper class latex…oh wait, you didn’t know that? Maybe that’s because you did not bother to view fet modelling either.

      Silly girls trying to force people to “feel empowered by something else” that’s not for you to say and sure isn’t for you to slander, you are what’s wrong.

      If minortities just sat back and took the slagging and the degrading we would be in a much worse world.

    • Kristyle says:

      04:59pm | 16/09/11

      If it’s so right why do you feel the need to justify it? Oh and I seen the latex shot. Sorry still not classy. I find your comment somewhat ironic; you’re complaining about people make assumptions and you’re making them too. Today I felt a sense of power and accomplishment, I assisted a group of down syndrome students on a day out! This topic isn’t about jealous people, it’s much deeper than that. It’s about values and ideal ogled. And I’m sorry not everyone is going to have the same ones as you. Good luck in your journey of justification.

    • Lyn says:

      02:03pm | 17/09/11

      She isn’t justifying what she does at all. She used it as an example. I think you’re a sad jealous woman and you’ve displayed the point that Vivica was making here by resorting to personal attacks. You are indeed really sad “Kristyle”.

    • Monika says:

      07:28pm | 17/09/11

      The whole 16 year old ‘you’re just jealous’ probably isn’t the reason. I think it’s about values.

    • Soos says:

      02:12am | 16/09/11

      Tubesteak says:08:59am | 15/09/11
      ...Prositution(sic) is the world’s oldest profession…
      No it isn’t; fruit picking is. Eve picked apples and Adam ran around with his banana wagon.

    • luke says:

      04:19am | 16/09/11

      There is more exploitation in television shows now than what you would ever see in a strip club….
      but what would i know, i’m just a dumb arse consumer, being exploited by everything and everything,
      yes, even including the nice ladies at the strip club who serve the customers overpriced drinks and sell vouchers to stick down the garters of your favourite dancer, quite possibly because of that old saying “you never know where that money has been… could have been up a chinamans bum for all you know…” either way,
      everyone involved is being exploited if people want to start throwing that one around,
      Because at the end of the day the world is exploiting all of us,

      hopefully the remains of our rotting corpses will eventually turn into fossil fuels so the cycle of exploitation continues….

      Feminism? Misogyny? All these stereotypes just keep feeding the old fashioned values regarding sexuality that were never really adhered to anyway, just hidden away like a disease.
      But why progress as humans, whats the point? Why is it that for some reason, the most “open minded” people you talk to are often the most ignorant people you will ever meet,
      I can’t tolerate those kinds of people, you know… the kind of people who can’t tolerate intolerance (how does that work i ask you?)

      I still reckon that the world will be a much nicer place once people stop worrying about where other people come from and what they choose to do with their genitals.

      Sorry about this garbled mess of a replay it’s 4am and im not in the mood to jerk off….

    • Timinane says:

      08:41am | 16/09/11

      We who don’t like porn will usually point to the worst of it just like the worst of the sex industry that is misogynist. East European, Asian syndicates ferrying girls and woman across borders to work as prostitutes. If there are woman who aren’t part of that side who find that the sex industry suits them well I’ll support my mum’s style of feminism which is about women having a choice. While it is simple minded to lump all sex industry workers in that misogynistic exploited category if you are not being exploited then good work and help out the ones that are being exploited by giving them a pathway to better work.

    • Debbie Does says:

      11:52am | 16/09/11

      Erasmus if you are looking for academic studies, try Sex Work and Sex Workers in Australia - rather than rely on overseas research.  Roberta Perkins UNSW 1994.  This book gives all concerned with the industry a chance to air their views, including police.
      You could even try something a little more recent - Elena Jeffries work on Chinese women working here:
      http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue26/jeffreys.htm

      Neither of them fit in with your all-of-us-are-victims theory - but may provide some insight…?

    • Franci says:

      02:52pm | 16/09/11

      What makes me laugh is the term ‘high class’ as in escort, brothel etc. Sorry but there’s nothing classy about a woman who sells sex for money. ‘High class’ just means high price tag!

      Don’t care if other women do it, it’s their choice, but also don’t expect that others will not find it a very distasteful way to make a living.

      Was just in Las Vegas. Saw a couple of girls dancing in a cage in their undies near the front of a casino we walked past. Hmm yeah they just looked thrilled to be there, and their career satisfaction was palpable .....

    • Tigger says:

      04:32pm | 16/09/11

      I have to say, I am astounded at how nasty and judgmental some of the women are here. Funny I’m not seeing the same venom from the men. So much for the “sisterhood”...

    • Ray says:

      05:51pm | 16/09/11

      They’ve got the venom alright Tigger. Trust ‘em like you’d trust a black snake that might turn on you. They have form.

    • gra gra says:

      06:14pm | 16/09/11

      Tigger, you must have realised that some of the ‘venom’ comes from overweight, or middle-aged, or unattractive-someway, or restrained women who fear “having a go”, mustn’t you?
      Having said that it must also be glaringly apparent that men also have a need to give forth an anti-porn/prostitution stance in case we judge them by their own, (displayed), attitudes. It’s the old, “I could not co-habit with someone who ‘sells’ their body” announcement that covers the fact that the only reason they haven’t visited a brothel is because they are a bit short in some department.
      Also remember that when in a brothel men are doing nothing other than, (in far too many cases), just doing what they would like to do at home.
      Franci at 2.52 pm says he was in Vegas, (no-one who has been there calls it Los Vegas), and he wasn’t impressed by the upfront display. Why were you there, Franci. A church convention?
      You stay home with the wife Franci. Give her your pay envelope and then take her to bed. It’s much more moral than “paying” for it.

    • Elizabeth1 says:

      08:35pm | 18/09/11

      Gra Gra - This industry has some terrible aspects. You can tell yourself otherwise but it wont change it.  I dont buy coffee or chocolate unless it is registered as fair trade.  I do this because I wont participate knowingly in anything that creates human misery (slavery).  Justify it all you like, it won’t change a thing.  The sex industry is rife with slavery, coercion and damaged miserable individuals.  Empathy is the separation from being a sociopath.

    • Mil says:

      01:31am | 20/09/11

      “I’m normal and happy and not some emotionally damaged whore looking for my next bag of meth”.

      Good for you. When I was a teenager I was ‘an emotionally damaged whore’ as you so charmingly put it who was homeless, addicted to drugs and who had been raped and sexually abused as a child - the perfect grooming for prositution. Thank you for doing what you just accused ‘old school’ feminists of doing - insulting ‘sex workers’ personally and placing stigma and shame on them.

      Regarding stigma - reality check. The sex industry’s bread and butter is stigma. Men pay for women who they perceive to be ‘not like those nice women over there’. That is the entire point. I wish you luck removing the social stigma. You’re going to need it. As unfair as that is that’s the reality of the ‘industry’. This should be a lightbulb moment for you ...

      Your personal choices don’t change the fact that the sex industry is largely unregulated in practice, unethical and arises from women’s oppression socially, economically, racially and sexually. It involves organised crime, trafficking, coercion, assault, rape, abuse and long term physical, mental and sexual health impacts and trauma. I’m suffering from all of these health effects over 20 year later. The fact that this is not your experience does not change that reality for a vast number of women (and children and men) in this industry, if not most.

      That is what ‘old school’ feminists (of all ages) attempt to address, amidst a tide of indifference and simplistic liberal rhetoric about ‘personal choice’ and the blatant lie that the sex industry is a benign, innocent ‘industry’ just like retail or hospitality etc. For the most part, it is not. That is a fact that even industry insiders themselves will attest to.

    • Mil says:

      04:33am | 20/09/11

      I don’t understand how pointing out the significant ethical problems within the sex industry and attempting to address them can be characterised as ‘old fashioned’. That’s a bizarre position to take. It’s also dishonest as there are plenty of younger feminists challenging the sex industry from the same perspective, many of them survivors of the industry themselves. This obviously has nothing to do with ‘judgement’ or personal attacks. If someone did personally attack you they probably weren’t a very good feminist. But to tar all feminists with the same brush is also unfair and hypocritical. Also, if the author is concerned about people judging women in the sex industry, she might want to take her own advice and not quote offensive comments about some of it’s most vulnerable women.

    • Mel says:

      09:16am | 20/09/11

      Fair enough women should respect other women and avoid judgement and name-calling. But I don’t see any of you calling out the many men in this thread who have viciously insulted and ridiculed other women who respectfully disagree with you.

      There’s a reason those men are on your side by the way, and I’m pretty sure it’s not because they give a damn about women’s rights.

    • Mil says:

      10:56am | 21/09/11

      Just as it’s an over-simplification to conflate street prostitution with other types of ‘sex work’, it’s also an over-simplification to suggest that other types of ‘sex-work’ are completely safe and harmless. In the UK for example a study found that trafficking, prostitution, verbal, physical and sexual harrassment and assault occur in strip clubs and other ‘adult’ establishments. Harrassment is also directed to women on the streets in the vicinity of these establishments. There have been cases of trafficking into strip clubs. One case is being tried in UK the courts currently. I’ve heard of women doing relatively tame ‘erotica’ shoots and nude modelling taking friends/bodyguards along to shoots because they’ve had ‘bad experiences’.

      The legal brothel industry is regulated on paper, but even police and sex industry advocates admit that there are little resources to enforce them and corruption is a problem. Women have been assulted and raped in legal brothels (OH&S guidelines reveal the inherent dangers in prostitution, for eg. the neccesity for panic buttons and removal of pillows from rooms), underaged girls have been found working in legal brothels in Victoria and elsewhere, as have ‘migrant sex workers’. Regulations and codes have been found to be seriously breached in some cases, to the detriment of the women working there. And as in all places where prostitution has been legalised, the illegal industry has expanded to many times that of the legal industry. The involvemnt of organised crime in prostitution both legal and illegal is common.

      These are the problems that feminists and others are attempting to address and I think that’s perfectly valid given the danger, trauma and harm that all types of ‘sex work’ can cause to women, men and children. It has nothing to do with being ‘out of touch with the times’ or a ‘prude’ or ‘judgemental’. It would be ethically bankrupt for us as a society to ignore these problems simply because some individuals say that they have no problems working in the sex industry. If someone has personally attacked you, that is wrong. But feminists in general are not about attacking women in the sex industry. Many of them are victims and survivors of the sex industry themselves, myself included.

    • Mil says:

      11:24am | 21/09/11

      I forgot to mention trafficking into pornography as well. This is a significant problem in Eastern Europe and Asia. Even in the most regulated sector of the porn industry in the US, there are ethical problems with the produciton of pornography - yet another AIDS outbreak there attests to that. The fact that this can happen in one of the most popular mainstream porn publishers attests to that. Warning, this is sickening. http://www.thewrap.com/media/column-post/alleged-sex-slave-appeared-hustler-photoshoots-20766

      It’s not all about one individual’s ‘sexual expression’ or sexuality. It’s not about sex. It’s about the ethics of *the commercial sex industry*, or more accurately the lack thereof. Sorry to rant, but I feel very strongly about this because I’ve been in it and it has impacted every aspect of my life, especially my mental and physical health. I have an infectious disease. I suffer serious anxiety and depression. People don’t understand the impact it can have. It’s ‘just sex’ or ‘fantasy’ to them. The indifference to what can happen to women in this industry is shocking to me. It’s ‘the banality of evil’ all if I ever saw it.

    • Mel says:

      10:10am | 26/09/11

      It’s interesting that pro-pornography feminists are so against anti-porn feminists apparently making into women ‘victims’, yet that’s exactly how most pornographers present women in their material. Victims of sexual violence, victims of rape, victims of bondage, victims of S/M, victims of torture, victims of crime, victims of pedophiles etc. etc. ad nauseum. This is standard pornographic fare. Why the silence about that? Or is the cognitive dissonance all too much?

      The other thing is that refusing to name women as victims - of violence, exploitation, sexual abuse, assault, rape or simply victims of circumstances that drive them into the sex industry - simply because they’re women, denies women our basic humanity, which is about as anti-feminist as you can get. We have no trouble naming other groups of people as victims of exploitation, crime or abuse if that is what they are.

 

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