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North Korea’s Dear Leader is dead - what next?

Felix Patrikeeff

by Felix Patrikeeff

20 Dec 05:52am

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Filed under: International Politics, Kim Jong Ill, North Korea

112 comments

North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il is dead. This means both many people watching the famous Team America “I’m So Ronery” clip, and potentially enormous global implications. For all the news see news.com.au’s coverage here. The Punch spoke to Associate Professor Felix Patrikeeff, who is Head of the Discipline of Politics and Master of Kathleen Lumley College at the University of Adelaide, where he is currently teaching the Comparative Politics of Leadership and Intelligence Studies (he is also the President of the South Australian Branch of the Australian Institute of International Affairs).


What do you think will happen now?
One of two things will happen. One is that the new leadership under Kim Jong Il’s youngest son (Kim Jong Un) will take shape fairly slowly behind the scenes until such a time as he can actually take power in his own right.

Or else, there could be a power struggle at the very top of the North Korean political hierarchy - and that may well include a little bit of relaxation and liberalisation if the country.

Who could the struggle at the top be between?
Between the “faceless men”. Literally, they are faceless - we just don’t have enough material on who occupies the very important positions within the political and military elite who hold sway in powerful places.

All of that happens under a cloak of extreme secrecy Kim Jong Il’s own ascension to the Sun God’s throne was actually via a period of precisely the same sort of blanket secrecy during which time he consolidated his power base.

Should we be optimistic that there will be liberalisation?
The South Koreans are very worried but that’s because they’ve taken a much harder line under the current president.

There have been more liberal leaning people in the North Korean hierarchy who’ve been behind some pressure to create free trade zones in the model of the Chinese ones, so there are liberal elements in the leadership that may serve to connect with the rest of the world. They may well push through a little bit of liberalisation that then could be fed upon by both South Korea and the other countries that need to.

When Kim Jong Il was basically completely off the radar for a couple of years, it was then that a little bit of experimentation went on in a free trade sense.

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said the world will not mourn Kim Jong Il, but that’s not true within North Korea, is it?
Absolutely not. The regime in North Korea is probably the best shaped Stalinist regime over the years. It’s in perfect keeping with the autocratic authoritarian regime where the leader is put up on a pedestal, has very little contact with the ordinary people and he’s seen in image only, rather than in frequent contact with the population.

When they do see him, I’ve seen plenty of evidence that people really do become emotional, because he’s their great champion, their saviour.

Is there anything other countries can do to encourage a better outcome?
Only push and prod and engage at this important time. If the third party powers actually know people in the North Korean regime (and that’s a question mark) then this is the time to send out some feelers to see precisely what the mood is like, and see if any bridges can be built to make a more stable relationship – with the US particularly because that would normalise and regularise the situation better than any posturing.

Is there a danger of complete destabilisation?
Always - if there’s a power struggle and different factions, and remembering the North Korean army is the 3rd or 4th biggest in the world. It really is a question of whether or not those factions will begin to engage in the power struggle.

But we won’t see it. It’s won’t be visible from the outside. What we might see is some of the results of that in terms of social policy… but I doubt it, I think they’ll try to keep it steady as it goes.

We’ve seen a lot of bad guys die this year, figureheads and active political figures. How does Kim Jong Il fit in?
He is both a figurehead and active politically, so we’re in for a very interesting early part of the year and possibly even the whole of next year will be very interesting indeed to monitor because we’ll begin to see whether the regime is capable of sustaining yet another member of the dynasty, whether he is capable because he was only installed last year and he’s very young and he’s really without experience and he’s only there because he was appointed and anointed by his father.

So it’ll be a steep learning curve for him and we can only hope his advisors are level headed people who would prefer a stable regime… but we just don’t know.

Is there anything else you’d like to add?
The only other thing to mention is that in connection with North Korea opening up to the outside world is the fact there’s so many factions and bars in place against it globally that it’s really in the world’s interests to show a bit of concession at this time to make it less of a pariah state than it has been.

When we saw Kim Jong Il go to China and Russia, what he was doing was ensuring he had some form of lifeline to the outside world. So it could be interesting and worthwhile if North Korea could form bridges with other third party states in a genuine way. It would result in an opening up of the situation which would be in everyone’s interests.

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112 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Alf says:

      05:21pm | 19/12/11

      Kim Jong-Very-il.

      Reply

    • hired goon says:

      10:18am | 20/12/11

      The Kim is dead.

      Long live the Kim.

    • amy says:

      05:21pm | 19/12/11

      well….it had to happen sooner or later

      Reply

    • Bill says:

      05:39pm | 19/12/11

      One far-left wing dictator gone. No tears being shed here. Hopefully the people of North Korea won’t have to suffer much longer under this horrible left wing regime.

      Reply

    • Left wing says:

      05:54pm | 19/12/11

      You are very confused my friend. Go and google left wing, read the Wikipedia entry on what left wing politics is actually about. I think you’ll find it is the complete OPPOSITE of the North Korean dictatorship. If you want to be taken seriously, you at least should know what you’re talking about.

    • Bill says:

      06:29pm | 19/12/11

      @ Left Ding - are you seriously suggesting that the dictatorship the North Koreans are currently suffering under is NOT left wing? Do you not understand that the stalinist regime causing immense suffering to the people there is not born of left wing politics?

      Typical leftist propaganda. Ignore facts, treat citizens as if they are expendable. What a shame that a few people in the west are so gullible that they amazingly support this disgraceful dictatorship.

      If you want to be taken seriously, left ding, you need to educate yourself about the unimaginable suffering left wing governments inflict on their citizens every year

      Long live freedom from government oppression.

    • Karl says:

      06:54pm | 19/12/11

      to be fair, it was originally communist, which is an entirely left-wing system of government. however very few people realise that they’ve officially rejected actual communism, so cut Bill a break
      though the way the place is run is certainly dodgy enough to be left wing

    • neo says:

      12:30am | 20/12/11

      North Korea is certainly not left wing or socialistic. It’s not even communistic, although the people brainwash the masses to think it is.

      It’s a country with one of the worst distributions of income, with the majority of the country’s wealth accumulated by a small group of people at the top.

    • acotrel says:

      04:40am | 20/12/11

      What appalls me about the situation is the level of indoctrination of the populace which must be involved to keep the power structure intact.  We in the ‘democratic’ countries also get our dose of it, albeit to a lesser extent.

    • MarkS says:

      08:16am | 20/12/11

      Left Wing? It was meant to be left wing, but many things have origins that have nothing to do with present reality. Now? The political system most resembles that of Ancient Egypt, the ruler is the God King & everybody is his slaves. Many would call that far right wing.

      But the simple fact of the matter is left/right lose meaning at the extremes. The USSR under Stalin & Nazi Germany where meant to be far left & far right wing, but they resembled each other far more than did they did the centre they moved away from in allegedly different directions

    • RyaN says:

      09:19am | 20/12/11

      @Bill: yet another country who has suffered at the hands of vile leftism. The fact is that just about every despot the world has ever seen has been brought to their throne through leftists.

    • RyaN says:

      09:23am | 20/12/11

      @MarkS: Hitler far right? What was the party that brought him to power again?
      Oh I remember now, “National Socialist German Workers’ Party”. Yup seems far right to me!

      It is nothing more than leftist propaganda that has attempted to paint this fascist as right wing, the fact of the matter is that he was a lefty, a socialist lefty that didn’t like communism.

    • mick says:

      09:27am | 20/12/11

      From all accounts the son is worse than the father.  Lets hope not.

    • neo says:

      10:30am | 20/12/11

      Hitler’s regime was right wing, it was anti egalitarian. As you can see, these are all just words that have been misused for years. Don’t get lost within them, look at substance.

    • Peter says:

      10:41am | 20/12/11

      God, the stupidity presented in all of these comments is overwhelming. Always leaping to attack the left and the right wherever possible. North Korea cannot be compared to either, it is a tryrannical regime that does not concern itself with ideology, only power.

    • MarkS says:

      12:32pm | 20/12/11

      @ RyaN
      The National Socialist German Workers was Socialist, ya right. I guess that means the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea is really a Democracy.

    • Charlie says:

      12:52pm | 20/12/11

      If Hitler was left wing because his party was called “National *socialist*” then I guess that makes the LNP left wing too seeing as they’re made up of a lot of liberals right??  Right???

    • Chris L says:

      12:54pm | 20/12/11

      Don’t be a killjoy Peter, let the kids wear themselves out.

    • RyaN says:

      01:25pm | 20/12/11

      @Charlie: apparently yes, there are entire factions of lefties in the Liberal party.

    • RyaN says:

      01:30pm | 20/12/11

      @Charlie: Are you saying that Hitler was not brought to power by socialism?

    • iansand says:

      01:54pm | 20/12/11

      “Left wing” and “right wing” are virtually useless as labels to describe this sort of thing.  At extremes they converge.  “Totalitarian” and “libertarian” make a lot more sense.  Not that sense is a useful criterion for people who engage in this sort of argument.

    • John says:

      02:08pm | 20/12/11

      Lefty North Korea Down, next on is List Lefty Commie European Union and the Left Commie Obama administration. The west needs to return back to Nationalism, and finally end the enslavement, oppression and looting by the International Banking Cartel.

    • HappyCynic says:

      02:15pm | 20/12/11

      @RyaN

      Like MarkS said, extremism, whether cloaked under a right wing or a left wing ideology is, in reality, neither right nor left but something altogether different and inifnitely more harmful.

      Hitler was originally a nationalist (nationalists are right wing according to the dictionary definition), Stalin was a socialist (left wing), both morphed into murdering bastards once they had a taste of power and turned into something that had more in common than differences including how to deal with people they didn’t like.  The only difference in their philosophy was one wanted to eradicate differences to achieve equality, the other wanted to eradicate all except for the one superior race.

      Neither right wing nor left wing is perfect, in fact both sides these days are too stupid for words.  Your one-eyed refusal to own your side’s mistakes, flaws and imperfections is the perfect example of this stupidity.

      Just as FYI, don’t you dare accuse me of being a lefty, I wouldn’t be caught dead being associated with them either.  They’re no better than you.

    • John says:

      02:45pm | 20/12/11

      HappyCynic

      Church-Hill, French leaders and Roosevelt get away Scott free as angels? Why is that people seem to think that their empire they live in can do no bad? Droping an atomic bomb on japan wasn’t bad? Bombing German city’s in order kill civilians and destroy their nations isn’t bad? It’s amazing how people even after 60 years of WWII they spill spew WWII propaganda. That same thing is happening today, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya over 1 million dead, yet the west holds the moral high ground. It goes to show how naive and easily brainwashed we westerners are. Get off your high horse!

    • HappyCynic says:

      03:39pm | 20/12/11

      @John

      Almost 6 million of my people were killed by Hitler’s regime, 2 million more by Stalin’s.  13 million civilians starved to death under Stalin’s regime, 12 million civilians (including the 6 million mentioned above) were killed directly by Hitler’s plus they killed another 1 million Allied soldiers.  Then there’s the 4 million civilians killed by the Japanese.

      The total Allied bodycount for WW2 stands at about 2.5 million Nazis (plus 2 million unaccounted for), 2 million Japanese soldiers and between 1 and 3 million civilians plus there’s the fact that the Allies were not the aggressors of WW2, Hitler invaded Poland, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

      The maths seems to hold in favour of the Allies even with the nukes taken into account.  From a purely human perspective though the WW2 bodycount in total is a fvcking disgrace and a human tragedy unrivalled by any other.  Rant and rail against the establishment all you want John but a mere 1 million dead civilians in 10 years is amateurish and borderline incompetent compared to the numbers accomplished in WW2.

      But hey way to distort the point.

    • RyaN says:

      08:49am | 21/12/11

      @HappyCynic: Yet both left and right are better than you, there is nothing worse than a fence sitter. Got dual nationalities/passports also?

    • Richard says:

      05:40pm | 19/12/11

      Oh god, how much better would the world be if the exemplary capitalist system in South Korea could propagate across the 46th parallel. Capitalism is the only decent system of organising economics, and in the absence of capitalism, death and suffering reigns supreme.

      Reply

    • neo says:

      12:36am | 20/12/11

      Capitalism is only a stepping stone, useful for building up industry and creating employment. It becomes toxic at a point as well, unless it has been restrained with socialistic measures like equal pricing on various types of labour, such as those present in Australia.

    • acotrel says:

      09:01am | 20/12/11

      @neo
      Your comment about Australia - is this ‘as good as it gets’ ? We have a convergence in ideology, but no sense of direction.

    • Mark says:

      09:24am | 20/12/11

      The arrogance of the current general population is disgraceful- are you really that confident in Capitalism that you would take 100 years of success (Highlighted by massive military manufacturing) followed by 15 years of stagflation as proof of it being “the only decent system” when civilisation has existed and thrived for over 5000 years? Ahh the internet age- the possibilities are endless but the confidence it instils is worrying. Human’s are always striving for perfection, we aren’t there yet so don’t rest on your laurels and accept capitalism as the be-all and end-all of economic management.

    • MarkS says:

      02:59pm | 20/12/11

      @Mark
      Very true, Capitalism as we know it will change into something we cannot at present see.

      Representative Democracy is most likely dead in the medium term. The reason for representatives was that it was impossible for everybody to involve themselves in the decision making process. No longer, now we all could have a say & vote on every issue now decided by MP’s.

    • ZSRenn says:

      04:18pm | 20/12/11

      I have recently come to support the theory that the Chinese style of democracy mixed with capitalism is a good thing for developing nations. (This is in no way support for the government style of North Korea which is nothing of the sort)

      Chinese democracy as it now stands offers stability which our western method of democracy does not, be it Republic or Westminster. These only tend to work with well educated populations.

      The election of local council areas who then vote the regional rulers who vote the state members who in turn vote in the country representatives combined with a twelve year term for each tier offers stability. In all of the countries where our one person one vote systems have been placed, elections tend to derail the whole process with corruption and violence surrounding them.

      Once the country begins to move forward and gain maturity then moves towards a democracy of our like can be emplaced.

    • iansand says:

      06:26pm | 20/12/11

      ZSRenn - Demos - the people
      I am not sure what the Greek for “party member” is, but “elections” confined to party members ain’t democracy, regardless of the Greek.

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:14pm | 20/12/11

      @Iansand.  You have been here so you must know there are seven parties in the Chinese government. This goes back to Mao who had to make a deal with them to form power and they still exist today. The representatives from the area I live are not ‘Party’ members elected as chiefs (for want of a better translation) by the people of their villages. .

    • the_pseudonym says:

      05:54pm | 19/12/11

      Bet he isn’t so ‘ronery’ now mwahahaha.

      Reply

    • dale says:

      08:04am | 20/12/11

      Ah no Hanz Brix

    • Cry in my Gin says:

      10:41am | 20/12/11

      Matt Damon!!!!

    • stephen says:

      06:02pm | 19/12/11

      Team America’s a scream. Saw some by accident last weekend and had to get out Frank Drebbin’s DVD trilogy for deja-vu.
      The similarity, of course, is from criminals to dictators, and unfortunately, we laugh at them then have to deal with them.

      (Good luck, Mr. Next President.)

      Reply

    • AnthonyG says:

      06:35pm | 19/12/11

      Aren’t they lucky. With a bit of luck the same may happen to ours

      Reply

    • the_pseudonym says:

      06:57pm | 19/12/11

      AnthonyG, even though I may loathe the policies of Julia Gillard,her ethics and the way she’s always acquiescing to pretty much every call Bob Brown makes, I’d never hope that on anyone.

    • AnthonyG says:

      08:33pm | 19/12/11

      Good for you pseudonym

    • AnthonyG says:

      08:49pm | 19/12/11

      sorry I shouldn’t have been so mean to Juliar, its not all her fault. I should have thrown in Oakshit and windsor as well. Oh and my spelling hasn’t improved much either.

    • skinny1 says:

      11:01pm | 19/12/11

      AnthonyG, I wouldn’t miss Ju-liar Gillard or Bob Brown and their fascist mob. I just hate to think what evil surprise these carbon idiots have for us next. Bet they wouldn’t stop short of taking our heart beat to charge us tax per breath.

    • gobsmack says:

      06:09am | 20/12/11

      AnthonyG
      Our head of state is the Queen.

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      01:09pm | 20/12/11

      Never trust the skinny….....they always look like they need a good feed and will do anything for it!

    • biff says:

      07:16pm | 19/12/11

      News travels vewwy vewwy slowly. This idiot has been dead for a few years but his supporters were afraid to tell him to get off the stage.

      Reply

    • Peter says:

      07:52pm | 19/12/11

      After Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong dead.

      Reply

    • King Kong says:

      07:55pm | 19/12/11

      Kim Jong Il dies and dollar loses 0.45 cents. Money well spent. . . . If we are honest.

      Reply

    • Hank says:

      08:07pm | 19/12/11

      Poor Julia and Bob will be in mourning.  Their hero is dead.  Long live comrade Kim!!

      Reply

    • gobsmack says:

      06:11am | 20/12/11

      What a ridiculous comment.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      10:45am | 20/12/11

      Nothing is ridiculous to the far right, as shown with a few posts on here.

    • Mark says:

      11:40am | 20/12/11

      Far right, Far Left. Both Extreme, both with no place in society. Anyone who identifies with either is an idiot.

    • Mike says:

      08:15pm | 19/12/11

      I ate double bread with meat to mark the occasion.

      Reply

    • void says:

      07:23am | 20/12/11

      Rolling out the gourmet.

    • Economic Refugee says:

      08:24pm | 19/12/11

      Jesus and I´ve got a 6 hr stop over on Saturday in Incheon airport. ( about 50km from the border ), then an 11hr one about 2 weeks later…...

      Reply

    • SimpleSimon says:

      07:26am | 20/12/11

      You travel with Jesus? Awesome.

      *da-boom-tisch*

    • Dave says:

      07:48am | 20/12/11

      Good Luck on that one

    • MarkS says:

      08:18am | 20/12/11

      Does Elvis tag along as well?

    • Mike says:

      10:55am | 20/12/11

      While you are there on your 11 hour you could go on a DMZ Tour . . Should be fun. i did one in July this year .. was very interesting.

    • David Smith says:

      09:06pm | 19/12/11

      Every dog gets his day.. What a excellent Christmas present to the rest of the world! Now I hope the real heroes stand up like the Egyptians and demand a democratic government!

      Reply

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:09pm | 19/12/11

      @David Smith- They did and then promptly voted in the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Nur. Go figure….

    • neo says:

      12:39am | 20/12/11

      Well, considering things in Egypt are at the worst they’ve been at for a long time, I wouldn’t be so hasty as to call the revolutionists heroes.

    • stevem says:

      09:51am | 20/12/11

      The problem in North Korea is that the population know nothing of the outside world. The people believe they have it good and that the rest of the world is out to get their wealth. With all foreign radio and TV signals jammed, the population is kept in the 19th century.

      With no idea of what the world can be like, they won’t be clamouring for democracy but rather a strong leader who is capable of keeping the evil world at bay.

    • neo says:

      10:33am | 20/12/11

      Isn’t America usually quick to right the wrongs in this world? Oh wait, that’s only if the country is militarily weak…

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      10:47am | 20/12/11

      The Muslim Brotherhood there isn’t to bad, its Al Nur which is the elephant in the room.

      I hope somehow they don’t even get close to leadership.

    • ba'al says:

      06:54am | 20/12/11

      Why celebrate? He lived a long life and died. No one brought him to account, he won. The world stood by while he killed millions and now he sing hollow at the death of a old, rich and evil man. There is no celebration here.

      Reply

    • TChong says:

      07:16am | 20/12/11

      He killed millions?
      When?

    • marley says:

      07:40am | 20/12/11

      @TChong - well, the famine of the 90s killed possibly up to a couple of million.  Plus, there’s the infant mortality rate, which is around 36/1000 compared to South Korea’s 5/1000.  So that’s quite a few deaths attributable to the regime and its mania for shuffling all its resources into military expenditure.

    • TChong says:

      08:24am | 20/12/11

      All its resources still is a mere drop inthe sewer compared to the US and its expenditure on military ways to subjugate and murder .

    • marley says:

      08:56am | 20/12/11

      @TChong - North Korea killed its own people to no good purpose. South Korea has managed to keep a strong military and improve life for its population.  So, for that matter, has China.  North Korea’s failings are its own and no one elses.

    • Cookie Monster says:

      09:17am | 20/12/11

      So TChong what you’re saying is that in the bigger picture Kim Jong Il wasn’t too bad. I mean you didn’t even know his regime had killed millions of its own people. Sounds like you’re defending him to me.

    • chuck says:

      09:22am | 20/12/11

      Yeap . Figures pulled out of a crystal ball perhaps and why so many people crying at his death. I would have thought wild rejoicing or resolute silence. Perhaps the media has created a somewhat coloured picture of the bloke ?

    • ba'al says:

      10:06am | 20/12/11

      Acolytes of the left too often become apologists for stalinists. You are no better than those who apologise for hitler or forgive the catholic church for its genocides in Europe. I do not forgive America for cluster bombs, i do forgive the taliban for it’s theocracy, i say string up the investors who make millions speculating on grain prices whilst poor starve, i pity the poor chinese hidden and trampled, i cry out for the slaves that build dubai.. I do not forgive che for terror or stalin for his pogroms. Left, right, it all comes down to the powerful hurting the weak.
      I gives thanks my parents had the sense to flee to this country, i work to make this country better and support the efforts flawed as they are to protect this country.

    • the_pseudonym says:

      11:45am | 20/12/11

      ‘Acolytes of the left too often become apologists for stalinists’ .  ba’al, you’ve noticed that as well, there seems to be quite a few here on the Punch.

    • baal says:

      01:41pm | 20/12/11

      @pseudo.
      Whatever my leanings, no matter how much of a big gay socialist I am. I think the far left is dangerous. They wish to undermine a system that works somewhat with a system that will never work fairly. The same can be said for the far right.
      Australia is currently experiencing a golden age. People might laugh at that but look at history, look at the facts and you will see it is true.
      However gold is wealth, not strength. We need new vision to make this country something truly magnificent.
      So when i see leftists wanting an open border policy or rightists wanting to abolish the minimum wage with neither side calculating the real costs of their ideological positions I lament.
      When people ask me why i do not do more, I work an 80 hour week and have kids. I am tired, grateful tired and worried.

    • Dave says:

      07:49am | 20/12/11

      Team America took him out!!

      Reply

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:01am | 20/12/11

      Living in China and experiencing the truth about it compared to what is reported about it in the western media, I can’t help but wonder if <span style=“text-decoration: line-through;”>most</span> all of these comments are based on lies and misinformation.

      Reply

    • Dave says:

      08:25am | 20/12/11

      After living in China, where the media is so tightly controlled by the government you should ask yourself who is more likely to be broadcasting lies and misinformation to its people.

    • Mark says:

      09:31am | 20/12/11

      Your country is responsible for North Korea. China should be held responsible for its actions. Not that China has any idea about human rights.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:42am | 20/12/11

      Dave, Thanks for proving my point. I am able to read all and any Australian, US, Canadian, New Zealand European etc, news websites. In my home I have CNN, NSBC, Fox, and all of the European news broadcasters, Aljazeera and of course the local CCTV news. (Can you say the same about Australia?)

      Recently I have noticed that CCTV does not miss many stories that the others report. If the Chinese government does not want a story to go to air it simply does not go to air. Unlike the bullshit you just stated and have been told by the AU media.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:56am | 20/12/11

      @ Mark I am ninth generation Australian. China for that matter does what it can with NK. Recently KJI was summoned to Beijing and read the riot act. The Chinese way of thinking is that it is a sovereign nation; they can only advise but will not interfere in its machinations.

      Yes China can be strict at times on its people but they are trying to keep 53 ethnic groups together which until 60 years ago were in a constant state of turmoil, for nearly 5000 years, is a tough job. Personally I would like to see a stable China. As that turmoil decreases they are reducing that strictness. Did you know that they just introduced China’s first old age pension in that 5000 year history?  Probably not!

      Ask yourself what you really know about China apart from what you are told in the press. Unless you have lived here is probably not much.

    • Anonymous says:

      10:49am | 20/12/11

      At least over here, we haven’t had Google and Facebook either censored or outright banned. Don’t sugarcoat it either. Restricting how a person accesses information and communicates is a violation of human rights.

    • AdamC says:

      10:56am | 20/12/11

      ZSRenn, China is notorious for its control of the internet, and its massive investment in ‘point-defence’ internet censorship. You see what the Chinese government will allow you to see, and they certainly make no secret of that.

      I don’t disagree with you, however, that China has only limited control over North Korea. Not because of some sincere concern about the inviolability of sovereign states - I almost laughed when I read that - but because China needs to prop up the Kims to keep North Korea as a buffer state between it, (South) Korea and the US troops stationed there. And the Kim clan knows it.

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:24am | 20/12/11

      @ Anonymous i don’t know where you are but my Google.au works fine. Facebook twitter and Youtube yes but a VPN soon fixes that and I got one free over the internet.

      @ Adam C I repeat! I am reading and contributing to this forum VPN free in China. How much else of what you said is true?

    • MarkS says:

      12:40pm | 20/12/11

      @ZSRenn
      How much of what you say is true? Not much I hope.

      It would be best if you where what you appear to be, that is some Chinese Communist party internet propagandist.

      Instead of what you say you are, an Australian who has sold out Australian interests for Chinese money.

    • Anonymous says:

      01:01pm | 20/12/11

      @ZSRenn

      Ahhh yes, and I wonder what your precious Chinese government would do if they found out you were circumventing their censorship regime… The fact that you need a VPN to access those sites in the first place is despicable enough.

    • AdamC says:

      01:07pm | 20/12/11

      @ZSRenn, given how obsequiously sycophantic you are being towards China’s authoritarian rulers, your being able to post here is hardly evidence of the CCP’s willingness to allow freedom of expression. It is only freedom of expression if you can say things the authorities don’t want to say.

    • Dave says:

      02:07pm | 20/12/11

      @ ZSRenn: “(Can you say the same about Australia?)”

      Why, yes.  Yes I can.  You see, I have unhindered access to all forms of media including, television, internet (currently without national firewalls, I might add, and the ability to vpn tunnel my way through, otherwise), books, magazines, podcasts, etc.  So yes, I think I probably do have access here, and in most western countries, to the news being reported by other nations.  Thanks for asking.

    • ZSRenn says:

      03:25pm | 20/12/11

      Ah the old because I am enlightened to the facts about China I must be working for the Chinese government and sprouting propaganda or have sold out to China chestnuts. I wondered how long that would take.

      In my position I am responsible for about $AU1.2 million each year flowing into Australia. Not out as with many expats here. Each election I make the journey to Hong Kong to vote. If you care to look at my other posts on The Punch you will notice that I am very much a right wing supporter.

      Adam C you have a point that some forms of freedom of expression are controlled in China but are they not also in Australia. This is usually so because of China’s want to keep peace within its borders. A sentiment that I agree with, as the world needs a unified China to pull us out of the shit that US bankers and now European ones are dragging us into.  Also only a few of us in this forum express support for China. The rest of the comments are very much against it. I can see all comments on the screen not just a selected few.

      @ Dave I was talking about cable channels and unless things have changed, I believe that you are not able to get many countries news services in Australia, including CCTV news. I think you knew that. When I return to Australia, I am unable to access many Chinese sites fully. Please do not be so naïve to think that Australia does not have censorship laws. These are usually in the name of copyright or broadcasting laws but still censorship.

    • Dave says:

      04:09pm | 20/12/11

      Renn, my dear friend, it’s called satellite tv, for one; many, many channels from around the world are now available to us, just as they are in much of the western world.  We also have access to online streaming broadcasts from many other countries.  And then there are other resources that aren’t government approved (first-hand accounts, leaked documents, etc.).  You know this as well as I do.  Due to the increase in personally-available technology, more information makes it out of China to the rest of the world than your government would like.

    • iansand says:

      06:29pm | 20/12/11

      When I go to China access to my flickr account via hotel networks is severely circumscribed, if not impossible.

      Any other questions?

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:17pm | 20/12/11

      @ iansand I have never really understood that one either but just because you can’t access pictures of your wife does not negate the fact that I am watching news on CNN as I type.

    • Shenanigans says:

      08:30am | 20/12/11

      He’s so ronrey, so ronrey, so ronrey and sadry arone.

      Reply

    • Frank says:

      08:44am | 20/12/11

      I just hope that his son isn’t like many other dictators spawn…i.e Saddams crazy sons who were by all means 10 times worse than their father…let’s hope that he isn’t the one with the balls to fire a nuke at the US…

      Reply

    • MarkS says:

      12:36pm | 20/12/11

      Maybe we should hope that he is. A North Korean missile could well miss & the Yanks would turn the place into the glowing parking lot of Hell.

    • BallsUp says:

      09:22am | 20/12/11

      The tyrannical dictator is dead ...

      Long live the tyrannical dictator

      Reply

    • P. Darvio says:

      09:33am | 20/12/11

      North Korea – possibly the most theocratic State on Earth, comparable to the Vatican and Iran.

      Why?

      Well…There’s The Father…..Kim Il-sung

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il-sung

      “Kim was raised in a Presbyterian family; his maternal grandfather was a Protestant minister, his father had gone to a missionary school and was an elder in the Presbyterian Church, and both his parents were reportedly very active in the religious community. Kim was an accomplished church organist.”

      What the…. !!!!

      ..and there’s the Son

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#Birth

      “Official biographers claim that his birth at Baekdu Mountain was foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens.”

      What the….. !!

      “…birth…foretold by a swallow…“ and “…a new star in the Heavens”…M’mmmm – this has a familiar ring to it – where have I heard all this before…? Maybe that swallow was really an angel? Maybe his mother was a virgin as well….?

      And now there is the “Spirit” of the Dear Leader – the “Great Successor”

      Kim Jong-un

      The Holy Trinity is now complete……again this has a very familiar ring to it…isn’t there a religion like this…a kind of celestial North Korea?

      Reply

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:58am | 20/12/11

      Yes wikipedia is a fountain of truth lol

    • Robert says:

      10:08am | 20/12/11

      Another murdering bastard bights the dust!
      You must ask:
      1) “What sort of brain-dead morons are the North Koreans that they put up with this sort of bullshit”?
      2) Don’t any of them ever got out of town & see the destruction this monster & his father wrought on the country & people?
      What about all those stupid, fancy titles they give themselves? What did any of them ever do for their country & it’s people? Nothing.
      “The Great Successor” the great suck-hole is more like it! Grossly over-weight big tub of lard. With any luck he will go the same way as his mad father only hopefully North Korea won’t have to wait until he, too, is 69.
      What is wrong with the North Koreans? They must see the palaces, the golf courses, the extreme wealth, the gourmet food, the alcohol which this Kim Jong whatever family surround themselves with. All the while millions are starving to death. For what?
      For every death by starvation, for every one of the 36 in 1000 children who die at birth it is not just the Kim Jong whatevers who have to take responsibility. The Great People’s Republic of China with its despotic Socialist Government must also take a lot of it.
      China, & before it that other Great Socialist People’s Republic, the former USSR, has given unstinting support to this corrupt, dishonest regime.
      Or will the Great Suck-cessor, the obese slob, Kim Jong Un herald in the start of the long-overdue “Asian Spring” which will see the elimination of these Socialist Gods. Yes, that’s an oxymoron but isn’t that exactly what Kim Jong Whatever have made of themselves?

      Reply

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:43am | 20/12/11

      @ Robert Please look at what you’ve just said for one second, stop and think, if it is the truth or not!

      Show me the link to the pictures of the castles and the golf courses.

      Have you ever thought that the translation from Korean of “The Great Successor” might be a little tarnished by the western media? After all they are two very different languages with different grammar and syntax.

      Do we have some responsibility for the infant mortality rate, as it is our embargoes that are keeping supplies out of Korea? China and Russia are providing what they can to ease the burden but they have their own problems supplying their own people sufficient food and medicine.

    • John says:

      10:23am | 20/12/11

      We are all under the yoke of dictators, even the west. Western democracy is political theater. The are people who sit at the top that state the world is better run by few great minds, rather then the unorganized mass’s. The problem is the so called great minds are not so great. These so called western dictators are leftist leaning, and think the world needs turned into huge empire under leftist view point. I despise their rule, it’s why it must be uprooted.

      Reply

    • Peter says:

      11:23am | 20/12/11

      Derp

    • void says:

      01:59pm | 20/12/11

      Double Derp

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      10:38am | 20/12/11

      T Chong
      There is a difference between what the US spends on armaments & what North Korea does.
      yes, the US & other Western nations are responsible for many deaths etc. but the difference is that those nations are Rich. They have not allowed their citizens to starve to death as that despotic Kim Il mob have done & all for the sake of creating Weapons.
      Of course you pseudo-Socialists must all stick together. Doubtless you, Gillard, Swan, Wong & the rest will be wearing mourning clothes & probably, at our expenbse, they will all be flying off the North Korea for that murderous bastard’s funeral on the 28th December.
      How about those fancy titles they give themselves?
      I thought the whole concept of Socialism was that everyone is Equal. No-one is better, greater or more heroic than anyone else.
      Seems I was wrong for, despite the fact that neither Kim Jong Il, his father & his successor have never done an heroic thing in their lives they claim to be just that “Heroes”
      Of course, if you regard people who are great big obese slobs who eat & drink the very best of the world’s food & alcohol whilst the rest of the people starve to death as being “heroic” then indeed they can be classed as such.
      Decent human beings would never regard such people as heroes.

      Reply

    • 14th Man says:

      11:48am | 20/12/11

      Another one bites the dust as 2011 goes down as the year of the fallen Dictator. Bin Laden, Gaddafi , now Kimmy.  Which domino is next ? Gillard Brown we hope !

      Reply

    • Rick says:

      12:46pm | 20/12/11

      another fail.

    • All says:

      01:18pm | 20/12/11

      Can’t wait for our foreign minister to revert to black hair, reveal his name to be Kev Rud-dur and announce that he is the eldest son of Kim Jong-il. followed by his return to Nth Korea to take over as Dear Leader. Born for the job, a natural for the Nth Korean system, couldn’t take Aus down this path so he’s going home to where his talents WILL be appreciated or else.

      Reply

    • Sicko Fant says:

      03:52pm | 20/12/11

      Rumour has it,  his tomestone will read “I told you i was Ill”.

      Reply

    • Robert Williamson says:

      08:18pm | 20/12/11

      What comes next….Global domination then the moon then Mars, then to outer systems. Baby Jun is on his way and he at least has to do a few better than his old man….....This bubbys no Buddha…..plenty of death here yet!!!

      Reply

    • Seth Brundle says:

      10:16am | 21/12/11

      Its good to see that this issue wasnt left to one of the usual Punch writers but that you instead brought in someone knowledgeable on the subject.  Knowing your limitations is an admirable quality.

      Reply

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:25pm | 21/12/11

      “Between the “faceless men”. Literally, they are faceless”

      So, they literally have no faces?  I sincerely doubt that.

      Reply
 
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