No silver bullet in the binge drinking debate

Margaret Gray says:

12:10pm | 04/09/09

Drinking and alcohol is not the problem.  Violence is the problem.

They are not mutually exclusive, but why are these young men (and some women) so violent?

Target the cause of this unfettered aggression and anger before you tackle the drinking ‘problem’.

Tim says:

12:17pm | 04/09/09

Drinking is not the problem,
just punish those who offend harshly and watch the amount of bashings reduce. Its not rocket surgery Steve.

Kieran says:

12:39pm | 04/09/09

If we had a justice system that would adequately punish these offenders we wouldn’t have such a big problem. The police work there buts off to arrest them only for the courts to let them go.

Formersnag says:

12:50pm | 04/09/09

Call me cynical if you like, but i have seen this problem up close and personal, as a cabbie on the night shift. In my opinion many young people involved are the daughters and sons of our so called “elite of society” and so nobody in power really wants to tarnish or punish, their own children.

Steve says:

01:01pm | 04/09/09

What very few people want to consider - and especially the preventative health industry in their push for funding - is the role of amphetamine-type drugs and energy drinks. 

I think the violence is worse than before, but as neither the alcohol or the human metobolism has changed, we have to look at other causes as well as how alcohol is supplied and consumed.

simon says:

01:04pm | 04/09/09

Steve the answer everyone skirts around is making folk personally responsible, and empowing police again.
Toughen up law and order, let police be the meanest boys on the block again, and have courts damage people with punitive fines and custodial sentences for anti-social acts.
Let every person who is on a night out on the town have a semiconscious thought of the dire consequences of “playing up”.
The streets would be safer before you knew it.

G says:

01:07pm | 04/09/09

It’s very easy to gain political momentum on such a red button issue when the public is so easily polarised by these types of articles on this issue. 

I can see remarkable similarities between the temperance movement, prohibition in the US and your own religious affiliations, media releases and policies.  I believe that deep down if you had the chance you would enact a variety of laws that would restrict the public’s freedom for their own good.

ts says:

01:28pm | 04/09/09

we already have restrictions and laws in place - why not enforce them rather than complain they aren’t working? if everyone is driving at 80 in a 50 zone is the answer reduce the limit to 30, or to actually punish those breaking the law?? surely its not that hard.

from the violence i’ve seen on the streets in ‘trouble spots,’ its the prevalence of drugs such as ice thats the problem, not a few too many beers!

daza says:

01:55pm | 04/09/09

Alcohol effects people differently, you get - happy drunks, singing drunks, sleepy drunks, sad drunks and angry drunks.  We need to target the angry drunks and get them off the streets and off the booze, the rest are harmless, unless they fall asleep in the middle of the road, or can’t sing.

Cindy says:

02:06pm | 04/09/09

In our culture we keep making everyone else responsible rather than the individual. We are wrapped up in so many cotton wool laws that people are not growing up, they have no need too. They think that it doesn’t matter what they do because the penalties are laughable, until eventually it does hit the fan, and it does, and they don’t know what hit em for a six but then its too late. There is no learning curve.
Often people drink to escape from reality, dutch courage, why, now that’s another huge issue to be put on the table don’t you think. I wouldn’t think that when someone is puking their guts up on the sidewalk, crawling out of someones bed they don’t even know the next morning, getting into drunken brawls, ending up on the internet in very compromising positions etc. self esteem is not high on the agenda.
If an individual makes a mess, get them to clean up, if they waste police time, make them pay for the time, if they use hospital time because of their own self abuse get them to pay the bill. If the person in question is underage get the parents to pay the bill or get the individual to do community work.

Reprobate says:

02:15pm | 04/09/09

I say ban the selling of pre-mixers to children (18 - 24 year olds). Majority of young people I see are fuelled up on those pathetic drinks because they go down like water and they’re too weak to drink real booze. “Beer or something on the rocks only, kid” Watch the clubs clear out and the violence drop.

TimT says:

02:22pm | 04/09/09

Some people would look at that ad and actually be encouraged to drink *more*....!

Nick says:

02:27pm | 04/09/09

The first thing you need to do is stop listening to advice from do gooders who don’t even drink. Most of the poor suggestions come from them. Raising alcohol prices wouldn’t work; people will just spend less on other things. Earlier closing times won’t work either; people will just start drinking earlier. And sober people already get caught up in the responsible service of alcohol nonsense… getting kicked out of pubs and clubs because a bouncer with poor judgment decides they ‘look drunk’.

The problem isn’t excessive alcohol consumption. A lot of people consume “excessive” amounts of alcohol, don’t cause any trouble, and don’t end up passed out in the gutter. They have a good time and they go home. The problem is underlying anti-social and violent behaviour from what is essentially the minority. Alcohol isn’t the cause, it just gives them the excuse to do what they were going to do anyway. This needs to be fix first, and then the ‘binge drinking problem’ can be re-evaluated.

Dan says:

03:09pm | 04/09/09

Seeing as people don’t want to take responsibility for their own stupidity, its time that the law does it for them.  Offenders need to be punished and it needs to *stick*.  Its no good sentencing someone for alcohol-fuelled violence when they can appeal for a reduction because they’re sorry (see the young man who had his sentence reduced for an unprovoked glassing).  How is that a deterrent to other drunken idiots?

Dane Knows says:

03:14pm | 04/09/09

$16bn bill? From grog? You are kidding….. Across the board, even taking in that expense, the Government is making a killing on alcohol. Consider the GST on every sale, plus the added taxes (Ever notice how cheap duty-free booze is?), plus the spike on pre-mixers. Then add in the tax on cab fares that the majority of late-night drinkers catch, the drunken money blown on poker machines, and in the TAB. Add on the tax for the cigarettes that part-time puffers suddenly need after a six-pack. Why do you think gambling and drinking are synonymous? Or that the smoking bans hit pubs and clubs so hard. Don’t try to suggest binge drinking is a drain on the taxpayer; if anything, its an alleviation on them.
As for it being an epidemic, Violent drunks have always been there. The thing that everyone seems to forget is that its a tiny minority that ruin it for the rest. Suggesting bans on pre-mixed drinks is just dumb. I like the convenience, I could be classified as a binge drinker, and I have never been arrested or in a fight, in 9 years of drinking on the Gold Coast. Furthermore, having worked in pubs in the area for six years, I would say the majority of unsavoury behaviour I have seen has involved over-30’s. The only reason young people are the focus is because Surfer’s Paradise, the area with all the CCTV and police, is aimed at young people. There are plenty of pubs and clubs outside of the Surfer’s bubble that have to deal with older people getting into fights, falling asleep at poker machines, and soiling themselves.
In the end, its a personal responsibility. The Government can legislate all they want, people will get around it. Look at illicit drug use rates. Being illegal has created zero result with regard to ecstasy, speed, cocaine, and whatever else.
Trying to impose sanctions simply will not work. Instead, an increased security/police presence, to weed out the ones who are going to cause trouble and allow the people who simply want to have fun should be the priority. Too often, police on the beat spend their time busting kids for having open bottles in public or people urinating on the beach, instead of identifying people who are going to cause them trouble later, and intervening before it gets to that point. Don’t make the majority suffer for the actions of a few geese.

mikk says:

03:14pm | 04/09/09

Stop the mega profits that are being made by the alcohol producers and sellers. It is this greed motive which is driving the increased promotion and consumption of this drug.  Whilever there are millions to be made from the latest fad drink and the pushing of more and more alcohol on people the brewers/distillers and the publicans will continue to sabotage and fight any efforts to tackle excessive drinking.

Kym Durance says:

03:46pm | 04/09/09

It amuses me to read some dont think drinkng isnt a problem - ( see kym laugh ) the link between violence is well established - the link between booze and family violence is well established - ( mariajuana is also a large contributor to FV ) then you get liver disease, oesophgeal varices, peripheral nerve damage, motor vehicle accidents ( nearly 1/3rd are grog related ), slips and trips - we are a nation of booze hounds - some of us just keep our penchant for poisoning ourselves in doors - still the scourge of booze is far worse than that of all the other drugs combined with the excpetion of our other poison of choice tobacco - we just need to admit to it first.
Face up to that fact and maybe we can arrive a a solution - but we are probably all too pissed to bother

Matthew C says:

04:34pm | 04/09/09

When are the politicians and bleeding-hearts going to wake up and realise that this is their fault? Why? Because they’re the ones that have been slowly and surely eroding and form of ‘discipline’ in society. You always had bad eggs in society, but in general people knew what behaviour was expected of them by society because they were brought up in a manner that enforced societal expectations. How? Through corporal punishment. As children, and at school, if you misbehaved you were punished. Simple.

Now that child-rearing has become so weak and ineffective the government has to follow suit and become the “nanny state” that it is today. No longer can parents, schools, or governments say “don’t touch, or else” they have to take things away so poor joe citizen doesn’t cause himself any trouble.

Bring back corporal punishment. Bring back personal responsibility. Bring back the rules and enforcement that is needed to raise respectful and responsible members of our society. The experiment failed, and we are now seeing the consequences. Now, let’s all go sit on the naughty step.

Steve B says:

04:42pm | 04/09/09

Mr Fielding, Australia doesn’t just have a binge drinking epidemic, Australia like much of the western world has a binge everything epidemic, for at least the last 30 years we have been “taught” by the laws and policies of your political predecessors, backed up by corporate news/entertainment outlets that “more” is always better.
More money, more house, more food, more car, more TV’s, more brand names etc. 24/7 news cycles, always underpinned by the need for ratings have meant that every violent, sad or outrageous story gets run, re-run, dissected and analysed and that has undoubtably given us another more in our society, more FEAR!
Fear the drugs, fear the terrorists, fear the child molesters, fear the cancer, fear the fat, fear the mentally ill, fear anybody who doesn’t look, act, dress or speak the same as you.

We have also seen the rise of the chemical fixit mentality, feel pain? Take a drug. Feel tired? Take a drug. Feel depressed? Take a drug. Now put the two together, if a little bit is good, more must be better. If 3 beers is good, 12 must be great, if 1 joint was good enough for Dad, best I smoke 3. If my parents had their first drink at 18 I must have it by 16.

In Australia this is also compounded by policies which have allowed house prices to rise to such rediculously high levels that the average single income is no longer able to purchase (or even rent in some cases) an average home, so now with both parents working we have less home cooked meals, less time to talk, less child supervision, less patience, less playing, less time for anything that does not distract us from the fact our lives have become so hollow in the all important quest for more. All the time being reminded by our big screen TV’s of the things that we don’t have, and if only we had “more” we could be as happy as the pretty people we watch in between bulletins telling us what to be afraid of.

Whilst you may claim not to be in favour of a “Nanny State”, your comment “We have laws for a reason, and that reason is to PROTECT OURSELVES from venturing too far and doing too much harm to society” shows the exact opposite. Laws should be designed to protect people from each other, not from ourselves, politicians are not our ‘Keepers’ - you are our employees.

I honestly believe that a large part of the problem we are now facing is this idea that governments have a mandate to protect ourselves from ourselves, every law that tries to interupt natural justice, regardless of how well intentioned, removes the requirement and therefore the ability of people to actually learn to consider the consequences of their actions.

For example, the natural consequence of not wearing a seatbelt or motorcycle helmet used to be increased injury or death in a crash, the artificial penalties that we apply to people too stupid to do what is in their own best interest have made people now believe the penalty for not wearing a helmet or seatbelt is a fine or demerit points. These well intentioned nanny state laws also have the added problem of making people angry at the government and worse angry at the police, each new law (everything from drug prohibitions to council restrictions on cubby houses in the backyard) may only cause a small percentage of the population to be disaffected (people just don’t like being told what they can and can’t do with their own bodies and property) but it then flows on to their children, through the attitude parents display towards police and government. We have been implementing these “For your own good” laws for about 3 or 4 generations now, hardly surprising then that so many young people have little regard for ‘authority’.

The other problem we face is the overuse of prison as a punishment, I would have the same penalty (ie jail time) applied for stealing someones car that I would for stabbing them with a broken bottle, the length of sentence would (hopefully) be longer, but the actual punishment is the same for both. Prisons were meant to protect the community from violent people, these days we use them to protect people from themselves. We have effectively taught our society that harming another person is no more serious than (potentially) harming yourself, or painting a wall or telling a lie to get money. Governments also have an absolutely appalling record of admitting something is not working so we should try something completely different, as opposed to, increase the fine, increase the jail time.

Billy Pilgrim says:

05:37pm | 04/09/09

‘mariajuana is also a large contributor to FV ‘

Well now I’ve heard everything

Maggie says:

06:56pm | 04/09/09

I turned 20 this year, and my friends and I drink a lot. I am one of the people a campaign like this is trying to target. Interestingly, though I agree we need to as a culture curb our binge drinking problem, I then see no problem in going out and drinking 3 or 4 nights a week. There are a number of reasons that I drink as much as I do.

Firstly, there isn’t much enertainment for people our age. We are too old for things like Ice skating or bowling that we used to do in high school, yet going out to dinner bores us. There are only so many movies you can watch and we need something to do for fun. When you have to make your own fun, drinking is good because it lowers your inhibitions. Suddenly things that seem stupid when you are sober can entertain you for hours. So a solution here would be to try and invest in drink free ways for 19-25yr olds to have fun. Get them to do something other than drink, which happens mostly for want of anything better to do.

Secondly, and I know this sounds lame, but it makes you feel “cool” to drink. Why? The sooner you start drinking in high school, the cooler you are. It is a way to show that you are fun and exciting but doesn’t require taking harder substances. I honestly think that lowering the drinking age and making less of a big deal about it will do wonders.

I see a big difference between smoking ads and alcohol ads. Smoking we know, for a fact WILL DEFINETLY do damage to you in some way or another. Alcohol can yes, but it is much less certain and having drunk for years just fine the ads only make me want to drink more to spite the government babying me. This is quite a common reaction. Negative ad campaigns have no effect and may even make it worse. I’m less sure about a positive ad campaign and what its affects would be. Becky’s not drinking tonight was good when it was on but I think an ad campaign alone isn’t enough.
I hate to say this because though I know it will be effective, alcohol should be taxed a lot more. Your binge drinkers are also mostly poor uni students so that will really cut down on drinking. But remember, our only preference is for cheap liquor. You have to make it ALL more expensive, there is no point just targetting a certain type like alcopops.

Finally, with regards to drink driving, me and my friends NEVER drink drive. But I think that having better public transport at night would go a long way to helping that problem. It can be really difficult to get home and cabs are expensive, so I can certainly see the temptation to drink drive (though I never ever would)

Hope that offers some insights!

Maggie says:

07:07pm | 04/09/09

also in response to Reprobate comments to ban pre mixes. Have you ever tried to get drunk off a pre mix? Its impossible. They are so sweet that you can only drink so many before you feel ill and you are still probably able to drive at that point. The violent drunks, the drunks throwing up in the gutter the binge drinkers we are worried about moved onto straight spirits a long time ago.

NNick says:

09:03pm | 04/09/09

Not when you’re a short, 55kg female teen, Maggie.

Bruce says:

11:57pm | 04/09/09

Banning or increasing tax on pre mixed drinks has no effect. Banning premixed drink just makes the “drinker” look for some other booze of choice. Increasing taxes on premixed drinks makes the drinker look for cheaper alternatives, such as 2 bottles of burbon and 6 bottles of coke. This is not rocket science, just ask a party of 18 - 25 year olds how to have a party and get wasted quickly. The solution to “binge drinking” is most probably more complex than we can imagine. I believe it is an ingrained part of our culture and part of the solution most probably lies with the attitude of parents follwed by an ongoing education program focusing on the negative consequences of getting wasted. After that, I believe it is in the hands of the gods. Generations before us have done it so why are we surprised that it happens now. Just ask your parents what they did at a similar age, if they will own up of course.

G says:

12:28am | 05/09/09

Steve B,

Short and punchy comments will carry your message across quicker than a long drawn out rant.

RT says:

08:14am | 05/09/09

Here is the usual misinformation on the deterrent effect of taxes on alcohol drinking habits. The ATO’s figures clearly showed the deterrent effect of the alcopops tax on pre-mixed drinks tax, and the marked fall in the sales of them was not matched by an equal rise in sales of alternative alcohol product.  The same effect is observed anywhere in the world when taxes on alcohol is increased.  Those saying ‘they’ll just buy something else’ are talking from opinion, not fact.

And for those that think alcohol related violence is not a problem - you should get out more. Or maybe not, because one look at one of these 24-hour licence areas will have you staying away.

Maggie says:

01:53pm | 05/09/09

Nick, 55kg teenage girls are really not the problem here. And yes, even for them, it is still very difficult to get extremelly drunk from an alcopop. People who want to be drunk do not drink alcopops. And RT, therein lies the problem with looking at ATO statistics. So you stopped some teenage girls getting a bit tipsy. Big deal. that was never the problem. Alcohol sales may have gone down but from what demographic? Not very many of the serious problem drinkers I assure you.

LIZ says:

03:27pm | 05/09/09

Its good to quote the ATO’s data if it had adequate duration to give meaningful information and therefore can be translated as a fact. It is after all a new tax and this where the debate begins. The evidence is not clear, as the human element takes time to kick in and see what long term behavioural results take effect. Just keep reading more and different websites, there appears to be much conflicting information. In my opinion,  increase the tax on all alcohol !!!

jed says:

04:31pm | 05/09/09

go away, fielding. you are a fool and an enemy of freedom. we can only hope the LDP and the common sense continues to rise. that ensures that the most important things in our lives are freedom and liberty - not a plonker who wants to dictate to us and legislate away freedom on behalf of a bunch of fairy stories.

Kenith says:

11:14am | 06/09/09

Every species that over populate themselves have social problems. They are a product of the world we’ve created. They have viewer feasible outlets due to cost expectation and practicality. How can they head to the beach to camp and have a few beers when their expected to work on saturday’s for a rubbish salary. Who’s going to spend loads of cash on expensive fuel to spend hour upon hour in traffic on dangerous roads to escape our cities. Where are they going to find a place to camp that hasn’t already been sold to developers. We jam pop culture down their throat to keep the capitalist beast alive then condemn them for absorbing it.  We’ve established the unhealthy environment, their just doing what we do, Drink to escape it. Only with more vigor and in greater numbers because of our direction toward dense populations . The sad part is our elected representatives will only look for solutions in area’s that do not contradict their own staunch views. In a parliament that is dripping with mythology and addiction growth above substance we have few options other than more restrictive laws relative to population growth.

SteveB says:

04:16pm | 08/09/09

G says:12:28am | 05/09/09
“Steve B,
Short and punchy comments will carry your message across quicker than a long drawn out rant”

No G,
short, punchy comments are little more than the blog version of the “sound bites” that seem so pervasive in all things political in Australia. Great for point scoring, but of little actual substance.

Mr Fielding has asked for comments and opinions (something that should be encouraged in our politicians, whether we agree with them or not.) I gave him mine, perhaps a little less punchy one liners and a little more actual debate/conversation and something intelligent could actually be the result.

Vaughann says:

07:17pm | 08/09/09

I think Maggie nailed it (so to speak).  A certain section of society thrives on fitting in to groups and meeting new peeps no matter what the cost.  These groups are so boring that you need about 12 drinks to stand them.  Everyone in the group acknowledges this.  As you get older you get more selective with the people you associate with, and need fewer drinks to feel comfortable.  Personally I drink alone occasionally and need at least 15 beers to get a conversation going. hmmmm.

Plewis says:

07:30pm | 08/09/09

Where is Fielding getting this “$16bn alcohol toll” stuff from?

SteveB says:

10:59am | 09/09/09

Plewis, you add up all the costs associated with the deaths, illnesses, accidents, violence and the loss of work days etc that go with them, it’s not the first time that sort of number has been raised. I believe if you have a read of the “National Alcohol Strategy” documents it shows the basic math.

sean says:

09:33am | 02/11/09

teenagers drink. some drink alot, some dont drink at all. there is no amount of compaigning any government can do about it to stop it.

there is an undeniable link between alcohol and violence, but the fault does not lie with alcohol. it instead lies with the person who is consuming, and their personality. a violent person with a temper is going to get angry, whether they is under the influence of alcohol or not. yes alcohol may further that anger, turning it into violence, but the way the government is going about solving the problem is not the right way.

And by the way, that “$16 Billion Dollars A Year Alcohol Toll” satistic is absolute rubbish

Paul says:

03:15am | 08/02/12

Yes – I can’t rebemmer who, but someone recently wrote a great piece about the actual experience of being in poverty – it’s extremely boring and often very stressful, and most alcohol drinkers find a snifter of something strong helps relieve or at least dilute the intensity of both of these emotions.Bear in mind as well that super-strong booze in most African countries is incredibly cheap. It’s not like a poor farmer is buying a bottle of tusker – he’s more likely to be drinking a pombe of some description, often maize beer – which, like Guinness, has some nutritional value.