UPDATE 8.20pm: Total chaos as meeting ends, set to resume at 8am tomorrow, strong talk that he will be challenged, massive press pack outside Party Room, Turnbull apparently has 41 MPs behind his ETS Plan and 33 against, MPs saying it is not a strong enough mandate to back the ETS, Turnbull has apparently blown up inside meeting, says nothing to press on way out. More to follow.

Update 8.15pm: Sky News reports the back bench vote actually came out 41-33 against the CPRS, but Turnbull declared with the shadow ministers he could get a majority in favour. According to David Speers he made this announcement while some Senators were outside the room. To say they’re unhappy is an understatement.

Update 8pm: Apparently the No vote disputes the party room numbers on the CPRS and are going to move a leadership spill. Kevin Andrews confirms he would put his hand up if the spill gets up.

Update 7.40pm: Malcolm Turnbull says he’s won the support he needs in the Coalition party room. But they’re reconvening at 8pm and there’s rumours of a leadership spill.

Update 5.10 pm: Perhaps not surprisingly Tuckey couldn’t get enough hands up for his motion.

Looking for divine intervention? Picture: Gary Ramage

Update 4.50pm: Wilson Tuckey has just moved for a spill of the leadership in the party room. The motion won’t get up without a majority show of hands. But it’s sure to make Malcolm Turnbull’s day just that much worse.

The next two hours will be the most important in the life of Malcolm Turnbull’s political leadership as he stares down a groundswell of hostility from rebel MPs over his support for Kevin Rudd’s carbon pollution reduction scheme.

The charge has been led by Andrew Robb, the influential former party director, who quit the frontbench two months ago with a depressive illness, and who commands tremendous respect within the party as a tactician and a thinker.

Mr Robb spoke at length and forcefully against the Turnbull compromises on key elements of the package, with one MP saying his intervention makes Mr Turnbull’s position” messy, very messy.” 

While Mr Robb has no designs on the leadership and is still recovering from his illness, he was touted as a possible leadership or deputy leadership candidate earlier this year.

Senior conservatives Tony Abbott and Nick Minchin are also agitating against the Turnbull deal. Fellow right-winger Kevin Andrews is not being seriously regarded as a leadership player but in a sign of destabilisation indicated his willingness to run yesterday should he be required.

Liberal MPs are saying that if any move comes it will come from Abbott.

There is no solid prediction as to how long the meeting will last - Shadow Cabinet endorsed the Turnbull deal at 8am, the Party Room met at 10am and debated through until 2pm for Question Time, and will resume within 15 minutes when Question Time finishes. It could go into the evening - imperiling Malcolm Turnbull’s end of year drinks for the press gallery, which people here are getting a bit worried about.

Mr Turnbull’s people are saying that two-thirds of the speakers so far have been in favour of his deal but there is a long way to go yet and they may not all stick. We wll file again when it pans out.

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39 comments

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    • Patrick says:

      02:49pm | 24/11/09

      How about we get in early and start speculation on the replacement for Turnbull’s replacement for when they are innevitably stabbed in the back themselves.

      My tip? Tony smith.

    • Louis McLennan says:

      02:53pm | 24/11/09

      The U.N. Climate Science is falling apart, it won’t be hip in a few months. The Libs should do what is right by the Australian people and knock it back.

      I went to a dinner where Tony Abbot was speaking on climate change and ETS. I feel his views align with many Australians when it comes to ETS and climate change.

    • Margaret Gray says:

      03:05pm | 24/11/09

      Margaret Gray says:09:42am | 24/11/09

      Sorry Penbo, Andrew Robb is the next leader.


      Anyone want Saturday’s lotto numbers?

    • iansand says:

      03:06pm | 24/11/09

      The sad thing is that “No until Cpenhagen” was and is a sensible position.  All Rudd needs at Copenhagen is to be able to deliver a commitment to do whatever is necessary locally to instigate whatever scheme comes out of Copenhagen.  He does not need to take a scheme that may, or may not, be compatible with that conclusion. In fact I do not understand why it so important for Rudd to go to Copenhagen with a scheme in his pocket.

      If the loony Liberals and National Party had managed to stay on that message Rudd would have had a great deal of difficulty explaining why (apart from his ego) he had to take a final position with him.  But they didn’t and Rudd has had an excellent time lobbing the occasional hand grenade and watching the chaos.  Joyce and Minchin have a lot of explaining to do.

    • Joe says:

      03:11pm | 24/11/09

      Turnbull must oppose this ETC nonsense. Does he really think he can win votes on the left of Rudd?

      If you are going to go Turnbull please don’t take the country’s future with you and leave us encumbered with an ETS.

    • Halberstram says:

      03:21pm | 24/11/09

      The problem with so many of the Liberal Party anti-ETS squad is that they have been co-opted by the fringe Right-wing conspiracists in talk-back radio and the blogosphere. . .

      The one uniting thing of this closed-feedback loop of the usual suspects ; Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones, Tim Blair, Piers Akerman, George Moore, Jim Ball et al is their long-standing hatred of Labor and Rudd.

      Climate Change is just their most recent weapon in their ongoing and unbalanced obsession with everything Rudd.

      Remember the Heiner Affair,  $300 bn debt etc ?

      They all sing from the same songbook but some Liberals seem to think they represent the wider community.

    • ShowsOn says:

      03:25pm | 24/11/09

      I can’t believe that they have had all year to decide what to do on this and yet they have left it until the very last partyroom meeting!

      To placate the deniers, I think Turnbull is going to say we will support the deal if the government agrees to one more populist measure of some sort. Say leaving petrol out forever (even though this will be pointless, by 2020 most cars in Australia will be electric). The Liberals need one thing they can talk up to say they forced the government into a better deal.

    • Ken says:

      04:02pm | 24/11/09

      ShowsOn - and I can’t believe Krudd left it this long to start and finalise negotiations. Hold on, it’s because he wanted a DD trigger and therefore his CPRS is just a political tool and not really that urgent, isn’t it? .

    • Susan says:

      04:06pm | 24/11/09

      @Margaret - given Robb retired to the back bench due to a health battle just two months ago, I doubt he’s ready to be the leader. Twill be most interesting to see who he (and presumably Tuckey) are backing… my money is on Abbott/Hockey as a team.

    • Eat The Rich says:

      04:10pm | 24/11/09

      Are we sure these people are grown ups?

    • Razor says:

      04:10pm | 24/11/09

      No, ShowsOn, there is nothing that makes this ETS worthwhile - not from an environmental view or an economic view.  The only worth it has is as a symbolic gesture and it is a bloody expensive one.

      Time to die in a ditch on this - No ETS.

    • acker says:

      04:12pm | 24/11/09

      Bigger problem for the Lib’s is that this may be the only chance there party has any input into the make up of an ETS until after 2020.

      If they roll Turnbull and vote against the ETS causing a double disolution, most likely the Lib’s/Nats will loose Senate seats to the Greens, Labor and possibly Independents. And Labor with an election mandate may pass an ETS scheme with Green and Independent inputs rather than the Libs/Nats.

      I think the Liberal/Nats are living in dreamland if they think they are going to come out of a 2010 election with any more sitting members than they came out of the 2007 election. Infact I would say they are going to come out with a lot less.

      I cant beleive the Lib/Nats are usualy a party that supports spreading and hedging risks, yet far right wing leaders such as Joyce, Minchin, Bernardi and McGaurin dont want any spread or hedging.

      Sad to see usualy more far sighted fence sitters such as Abbott and Robb falling into line between the Far Right Lib Senators who in turn are being led around by the nose by modern day Oracle/Mussolini incarnate of Conservitism…............Barnaby Joyce.

    • Eno says:

      04:15pm | 24/11/09

      So who’s going to be leader for Question time tomorrow? Ironbar Tuckey and the Grande Dame of Liberal Politics Bronnie Bishop as vice?? ROFL!!

    • Super D says:

      04:17pm | 24/11/09

      @ShowsOn - Fair go mate, the ALP only gave them the “final” deal today at 10:00am and it did not include all of the coalitions demands.  If anyone is pushing through a rush job it’s the government.

      Just think for a moment that the climategate affair grows legs and completely undermines the public’s and politicians will for any sort of global CO2 deal - as it should.  Where is the ALP then?  They have lashed themselves to the AGW ship and will go down with it.  I for one would love to see an election purely on climate change.  I think the ALP are going to find the debate quickly turns against them.

      In any case this deal that must be passed this week doesn’t start until 2011.  This is pure politics to allow Rudd’s international grandstanding.  Whatever happens there is no way that the scheme if passed today will not be significantly amended once again before it starts.

      As for climate change being a right wing conspiracy, have a good look at what the leading climate scientists have ben doing to promote the AGW agenda.  Data manipulation, suppression of criticism - it’s all there.  The right wingers couldn’t invent this much gold if they tried.

    • H of SA says:

      04:21pm | 24/11/09

      There goes the Coalition. As Jack the Insider said in todays blog-its all over for the Coalition if they make a slip today. They just slipped.

      If this division isn’t healed, goodbye nationals and possibly the Liberal and Conservative sides of the Liberal party will split too.

    • Al says:

      04:28pm | 24/11/09

      Grattan makes the point today that Rudd’s ETS is pretty much the same as the one Howard took to the election last year. Even Howard agrees with that.
      If Howard were still in charge, would we be seeing this choas among the Libs? Is that a reflection of Turnbull, or the sexual tension Johnny generated in the partyroom?

    • Joe says:

      04:44pm | 24/11/09

      No ETS.

    • Joe says:

      04:49pm | 24/11/09

      @Al Howard got bagged as some kind of environmental vandal with his ETS and now as you say Rudd puts up the same ETS and the media make him out to be some kind of savior. If he seriously believed in man made global warming he would be taking a lot more action as the Greens rant. Underneath Rudd just wants something symbolic for his UN bid and to wedge Turnbull with who is so stupid to fall for it. The “science” is falling apart and the truth is slowly coming out.

      No ETS.

    • Eno says:

      04:51pm | 24/11/09

      Ok - if you’re not going to put a cost on the pollution (remembering the Carbon Dioxide is only one of the six pollutants talked about at Tokyo but used as shorthand) through a scheme such as this how do you put it on without completely screwing over the Electricity providers that still use coal and their downstream industries. My understanding is that the “compensation” is a time capped thing - it’s provided to help the industries involved either realign themselves or prepare for BIG costs. Even last week in Victoria one of the big companies - planning to build a gas powerplant to use the left over “Mine gas” I believe - was being touted as not being built unless the government gave them more money. They already had it planned and ready - then teh dollar signs were flashing in their eyes..  Which Liberal was advising them??

    • Douglas says:

      04:56pm | 24/11/09

      They will never agree on Climate Change or Emissions Trading. However one thing they will *always* agree on is ripping pay and conditions away from working families. Whether they will call it WorkChoices again or not, this will always be a core Liberal philosophy and goal.

    • ANDIKA says:

      05:01pm | 24/11/09

      RUDD won’t have a double disolution election on this issue as he also doesn’t want to risk giving the greens the chance of a greater senate power.

      The fact that Labor predicated talks on the expectation of no deal at Copenhagen further supports the voting down of this bill.

    • Sooz says:

      05:08pm | 24/11/09

      I’m with Louis McLennan on this one. Even if the CPRS wasn’t a dog, the Liberal Party should still vote it down or defer the vote until Feb ‘10.

      The scandal of the past 5 days that is (boringly dubbed) Climategate has finally dragged the MSM - kicking and screaming - into the real debate about AGW and the (now) questionable evidence that “the science is settled”.  And when you have a global warming zealot like George Monbiot denouncing the CRU and Phil Jones over the leaked revelations, there must be some fire to cause the huge plume of smoke.

      The Liberal Party will have nothing to gain from aligning themselves with a tax on carbon whilst there is real doubt about the integrity of the peer process involved in the vetting of the IPCC papers and therefore the “official” statements about AGW, which have influenced government policy around the world.

      They have much to gain by either deferring the vote until the next sitting and call Rudd’s bluff about the amendments being of one week’s duration, or reject it outright and fight. Turnbull and the Liberal Party in general will be damaged beyond repair if this bill is passed.

    • Mark says:

      05:26pm | 24/11/09

      Turnbull won’t be going anywhere no matter what happens.

    • acker says:

      05:31pm | 24/11/09

      I think the Nationals are already the biggest loser out of all this.

      Already 2 former National Northern NSW strongholds in the Lower House “Lyne” and “New England” are now held by Independents.

      And many local farmers and graziers in my area the Riverina are passing comments such after seeing National Party Political Representives at Show’s, Feild Day’s and other Event’s; that the Nat Political Rep is often giving them a bit of a diatribe about how they are stopping climate change legislation.

      If the Cocky then try’s to engage the National Politician in a more in depth climate change discussion, the Nat Politician often hastily moves on to another Cocky and repeats the Climate skeptic diatribe almost Parrot like.

      The Nat’s are not winning many new friends with this approach

    • Daniel says:

      05:37pm | 24/11/09

      I love watching the Howardites self destruct. This is better than any silly show on TV. Its a shame that Tuckey wasnt successful in his spill efforts. Major party politics in Australia is so boring.

    • acker says:

      06:36pm | 24/11/09

      @Louis McLennan says:03:53pm | 24/11/09
      >“I went to a dinner where Tony Abbot was speaking on climate change “<

      Out of interest how much did that privilege cost you Louis ?

      I remember quite a few years ago someone telling me I had been invited to a Bar-B-Q with then Deputy Prime Minister and National leader John Anderson, no sooner had I started thinking about what the hell I was going to wear at short notice, the inviters next remark dont forget to bring $XX-XX as a party donation quickly had me back-pedalling with another dinner booking I had with a Cat and a can of Baked Beans..wink

    • Steven Mark says:

      06:53pm | 24/11/09

      It still boggles my mind how we can be so ignorant in pressing forward with this ETS. No decision can be made, whether business, military, or political, without some semblance of solid, conclusive, reliable data. In regards to climate change, this data is hardly compelling.

      Scientists are supposed to neutrally seek answers wherever it leads them, but despite evidence to the contrary, the clique of pro-climate change scientists,  insist on finding evidence to support their beliefs whilst ignoring all else, even there own colleagues.

      Even if you believe in climate change, the ETS is an incredibly flawed system. The passing of an ETS before Copenhagen is at the very LEAST, putting the cart before the horse.

    • Biff says:

      06:55pm | 24/11/09

      I wonder if Mr Turnbull is a wind-up ALP doll planted at the heart of the Lib-NP coalition to do as much damage as possible.

    • acker says:

      07:07pm | 24/11/09

      From the outside it appears that this is starting to follow geographic lines.

      Turnbull appears to be carrying the NSW (minus Abbott) & Queensland Lib’s plus perhaps Chris Pyne and Julie Bishop

      Minchin appears to be carrying the Victorian, South Australian (minus Pyne) and West Australian Lib’s (minus Bishop)

      I would hazard a guess that there is a techtonic shift within the Liberal Party and in the election following 2010 we will see a Victorian skeptic leading the party, most likely Tony Smith who Tony Abbott previously touted as a run with Deputy Leader option.

      I think the once mighty NSW Lib’s will going forward become an endangered species on the Liberal front bench.

    • ChrisG says:

      07:39pm | 24/11/09

      First thought - what can Bob Carr teach Turnbull (or his successor) on successfully uniting and leading an opposition to victory?

      Second thought - The question is whether the issue is the ETS or Turnbull’s leadership competence and judgment and influence. If Howard ended up forging consensus around something like this ETS, maybe on this occasion the issue is the leadership factor, and the key question is: who has what it takes to unite the Coalition again around centre-ground pragmatism.

    • Matt says:

      07:39pm | 24/11/09

      @Halberstram

      Your fall of crap. Cut the left / right bulls**t ok???

      This isn’t a left / right issue. This is about right & wrong.

      A global carbon tax doesn’t solve anything. It’d be nice if you actually had an individual thought because obviously you are parroting Kevin Rudd’s speech to the Lowy Institute.

      I’m neither left or right and your full of it. Kevin Rudd is full of it and so it Malcolm Turnbull. Utter treason.

    • Louis McLennan says:

      07:42pm | 24/11/09

      I can only hope that this ETS does not get off the ground. I hope Kevin Rudd does not sign us into that deal over at Copenhagen even more.

      The liberals are meant to be a bright bunch. Why are they so foolish like the ALP is normally. Who is Malcolm’s puppet-master?

    • Desert Rose says:

      07:50pm | 24/11/09

      I wish Liberal supporters would get a grip - do none of you realise just how bad this is?

      The ETS on offer was virtually the same as the Party took to the polls - and from a Government with the clearest possible mandate to act.

      But instead, tonight we see a major Australian parliamentary party in its death throes. All thanks to its own farcical brawling, its really pig-headed ignorance and its quite unprincipled backstabbers. 

      This is a black day for sense and responsibility in conservative Oz politics. Only The Wilderness awaits now.

    • mountcross says:

      08:38pm | 24/11/09

      Goodbye Malcolm !

    • Steven Mark says:

      08:44pm | 24/11/09

      I was under the impression that under Section 51 of the Australian constitution, The Federal Government did not have the right to make law with respect to the Environment. As far as I am aware this is the purview of the State Governments is it not?

      At any rate, “Desert Rose 08:50pm | 24/11/09 ” says the government has the clearest possible mandate to act. This is an incredibly gullible outlook, in the 2007 elections, the Labor party attained 5,388,184 votes out of a 12,419,863. That means that 7,031,679 Australians voted AGAINST the Rudd government. Mandated indeed…

    • John A Neve says:

      05:26am | 25/11/09

      Steven Mark on 24/11/09.

      The fact is our parliament take little interest in our Constitution! Both state and federal governments have all sorts of dubious ways to circumvent it,
      just look at the water debacle.

      Governments can do what ever the people let them get away with and most of US don’t seem to care.

    • Desert Rose says:

      06:23am | 25/11/09

      Oh please, S Mark.
      The Liberals went to the polls with an ETS, and theone on the table now is all but identical - a joint effort by both main parties. Result - clear madate. Got it now?

      If you won’t help, won’t try to think clearly, won’t bother to check your facts, then get out the way. The rotten carcase of your Party is about to collapse on you. We need action. Now.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      08:39am | 25/11/09

      Irrespective of what happens, Mr Turnbull is a dead man walking. Half his party supports him and half doesn’t. He can’t unite the coalition therefore he can’t lead the party. He should get out and give the gig to someone else. There is no point in continuing to be the “leader” of a party that constantly implodes around him.

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      02:10pm | 16/02/11

      Crowd Love,soldier crisis front odd agency see good possibly interested official season threat kill apparent decide exhibition star currently plant connection light professional generation together these stay male back instrument careful worth between wait afternoon boy eat colleague lay employment formal tell special union generate already answer version substantial issue limit background concern record serious alright combine feature examination throw person conflict water speech afraid prove suddenly enable act provision worker under perfect character married overall which stop typical result walk jump contribute step return worth distinction that concentration

 

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