I want to conduct an experiment. I’ve tried it at home and reckon it’s ready for a bigger venue. The Sydney Opera House would do. Or perhaps the Louisiana Superdome. I want a huge audience and plenty of space in front of the stage. People with sensitive ears be warned, there will be opera. I need divas. I want Wagner and cleavage and buxom plaited blondes.

Can you hear screaming? Pic: AP

I want helicopters and Robert Duvall  (without the napalm). There will be a monster flower garden planted in front of the stage and when the time comes to bond the divas with their bouquets, an army of florists will prowl the garden. They’ll be picking, snipping and binding the most exquisite and beautiful of the freshest opening blooms.

Here’s what would not happen at my opera.

People would not rush to disarm the florists. There would be no mass walkout. Newspaper editors and blogs would not be flooded with angry missives. The event would garner praise dependent entirely on the quality of the performance, with hopefully a little modest mention for my floral adornments!

At this point, you may be wondering about the point of my experiment. Easy. Picture the same event, but with a veritable Noah’s Ark of a zoological garden instead of a flower garden. Picture the heads being picked and snipped coming from animals of many sizes and kinds. Now you would see chaos. You would see rage. There would be gnashing of teeth. Placid gentle opera buffs would turn into avenging grunting Rambos.

Why the difference?
Plants don’t feel pain.

Over the years I’ve lost count of the number of meat eaters who, when clearly on the losing end of the ethical argument, burst into the “but carrots have feelings” chorus. The latest in this sequence is the Telegraph‘s Miranda Devine in a comment seemingly prompted by the vegetarian habits of former High Court Justice, Michael Kirby.

Miranda states as though it’s a fact that scientists have discovered that “plants have feelings”. It isn’t. They haven’t.

But would it even matter to the argument if were true? Not in the slightest.

Now, like me, Miranda has a maths degree. But even for those readers who don’t, the following should feel familiar from high school. Let’s assume that plants do have feelings. Let X be some quantity of plants in our diet. If we replace those plants with meat having equivalent caloric value, then the animals concerned would need to eat some quantity Y of plants. It’s easily shown that that Y is bigger than X. So, which diet reduces both plant and animal bereavement? It’s every kind of obvious. If suffering matters to you, then you should eat plants, even if the little darlings scream blue murder at every mouthful.

Which of course they don’t.

So the carrot argument is rubbish and wouldn’t cut jelly if it were true.

But Miranda doesn’t stop at carrots. She says animal activists aimed to destroy “the ready availability of protein” by opposing live exports of cattle to Indonesia.

The cattle we export to Indonesia are fattened in feedlots in Indonesia using palm kernel cake (15 per cent protein) from palm oil plantations on what used to be tropical forests filled with wildlife, often including orangutans. The sum total of the protein provided by beef in Indonesia is 0.7 grams per person per day. That includes local beef as well as that from our live exports. This is the “readily available protein”, and of course the undernourished poor are easily outbid for the lion’s share of this beef by wealthy Indonesians, Australian and other tourists.

On the other hand, if we sent Indonesia just half of the 12 million tonnes of cereal that we currently feed Australian livestock each year, it would provide 5 times more protein than that beef. Why don’t we do this? Because the pigs, chickens and cattle people eat easily outbid Indonesians for that grain on global cereal markets.

Speaking more generally, factory farming animals for meat turns large amounts of perfectly good protein into much smaller amounts of protein. Grazing animals for meat frequently starts with deforestation and wildlife extinction before turning vast amounts of vegetation which would normally prevent soil erosion and support wildlife into small amounts of protein. Only about 8 per cent of global meat comes from pure grazing systems anyway. Whether it’s grass or grain fed, the resulting protein is packaged with plenty of saturated fat and, in the case of pig, sheep and cattle meat is also a potent cause of bowel cancer.

Estimates of cancers due to the nuclear disaster at Chernobyl pale into insignificance next to red meat’s toll. Plot the two as per capita impacts on a graph and you wouldn’t see the former. Australia’s livestock are also responsible for about 70 million hectares of deforestation and a raft of extinctions - even before 1900.

I can understand meat eaters being annoyed by vegan moralising, but spare a thought for the anguish vegans endure before wave upon wave of the same poor arguments year in year out. Peter Singer demolished the “carrots have feelings” argument over 20 years ago and it’s not a tough argument to follow, but we are still putting up with it. The penultimate insult from Greg Hertzler, Associate Professor of Agriculture at Sydney University, who hypothesises that “the number of animals killed per loaf of bread, per peach, per egg and per pork chop are all about the same”.

Ouch ... this man is allowed to teach science?

Google ‘trophic levels’.

If you didn’t bother to, here’s the short version. The world produces about 245 million tonnes of meat each year. This obviously involves, at the very least, the deaths of 245 million tonnes of animals of various shapes and sizes. The world also produces over 2,000 million tonnes of cereals which provide 6 times more energy and 2.3 times more protein than the meat. Does anybody seriously imagine that there are 2,000 million tonnes of little critters killed in harvests but unnoticed?

Or perhaps the number is proportional to the protein, so would imply 869 (2000 divided by 2.3) million tonnes of rodents and fish scattered around wheat fields and rice paddies all over the planet.

I’ve met 12-year-old vegans who would be embarrassed on behalf of the Professor for this hypothesis.

Of course some animals do die during grain harvests. The issue is not whether anybody can eat without causing any suffering anywhere, the issue is always ... quantify and compare. This is the essence of good reasoning and good science. I’d suggest any Professor of science whose respect for quantified reasoning is illustrated by the above hypothesis should be sacked.

But I can’t finish this piece without a comment on the vicious little poem at the end of Miranda’s piece, which she says was recommended by Prof Hertzler. Most Australians have worked out that desexing cats is preferable to drowning kittens. And drowning the next season’s kittens. And drowning the next and the next and the next. The fact that a Professor of Agricultural Science is defending bucket barbarism explains something that has bothered me for decades.

Younger Australians won’t remember what Australian sheep graziers did to their sheep back in the 1980s. It was a very dark episode. Following the lead of some anonymous idiot, graziers figured they could extend the productive wool bearing life of their sheep by sharpening their ovine munchers ... with angle grinders.

And so they did. Pretty soon a bunch of contractors sprang up to service this new red necked sheep mutilation industry. It’s simple. Anybody can do it. First, jam the head of your unanaethetised sheep in an iron frame so he or she can’t move. Then apply the angle grinder until those dental edges are nice and sharp.

Would ewe like a complimentary floss with your grind?

Guess what? It doesn’t even work. No matter. The current Code of Practice on keeping sheep in Australia continues to protect graziers from RSPCA cruelty prosecutions by allowing this procedure.

What kind of barbarism was afoot in the Australian bush to endorse and support such savagery? Exactly the kind exemplified in the poem. Exactly the kind exemplified in the crocodile tears and quick resumption of sending cattle to be tortured in Indonesia.

Miranda got one thing right, We do all have to eat. The question is whether you make choices that minimise suffering, greenhouse emissions and wildlife habitat destruction, to name but a few, or you make choices to maximise your cruel and destructive impacts on the planet and its other creatures.

102 comments

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    • Nathan says:

      06:21am | 29/10/11

      Miranda Devine is epitome of conservative journalists/Shock Jocks in Australia. Write what they want no matter what the facts are how and get annoyed when some actually does the research and get caught out. Where as you get a piece that has verifiable facts and we hear about how Experts can’t be trusted they never get it right, your just a mouth piece for labor etc from members of the public who only want to listen to what they already think no matter how of base it is.

      I really wish Journalists and any public figure influencing debate were held accountable for deliberate miss information or lazy research it is unacceptable. Lets start with Alan Jones he should be ripped from the airways, the way he attacks individuals after such a checkered past is amazing Cottaging anyone?

    • acotrel says:

      07:28am | 29/10/11

      @Nathan
      ’ Lets start with Alan Jones he should be ripped from the airways,’

      Some things are so bad that they are good, but perhaps Alan Jones is not one of them ?  HIs boss should have his testicles removed !  His toadies such as Jones, Akerman and Bolt are a disgrace !

    • Nilbog says:

      08:28am | 29/10/11

      @ Nathan

      But what does your husband think?

    • jumped the gun says:

      08:33am | 29/10/11

      “Experts can’t be trusted they never get it right, your just a mouth piece for labor etc from members of the public who only want to listen to what they already think no matter how of base it is”

      An excellent example of this is nihonin’s comment directly below.

    • Bev says:

      09:04am | 29/10/11

      acotrel says:08:28am | 29/10/11

      HIs boss should have his testicles removed !

      Question:  Why is it OK to suggest mutilation of men is acceptable?

      If you had suggested that a women should have her ovaries removed
      because of what she says I am sure feminists would be all over you like a rash and Iwould agree with them. You wonder why Erick and others says the things they do.  This is perhaps a perfect example.

    • Erick says:

      11:07am | 29/10/11

      Lefties love censorship and the idea of mutilating people who disagree with them.

    • acotrel says:

      01:04pm | 29/10/11

      There must be SOME reason for Rupert Murdoch wanting to dominate,control and manipulate everybody on the planet, and it’s probably too much testosterone ! Well he started hacking recently, so the end is close.

    • Jeffrey Masson says:

      04:24pm | 29/10/11

      First let me congratulate Geoff Russell for a wonderful response.  I entirely agree with everything he says.  I am surprised at Miranda Devine’s piece.  The idea that plants feel in any way that resembles the feelings of human and other animals is highly speculative.  As far as I know, no respectable botanist agrees (The Secret Life of Plants is an old book, far from reliable even if fun to read).  She quotes Hertzler, but what he says:  “what do people think happens to the hen who laid the eggs for a vegetarian omelette, when she has run out of eggs?” just supports why many of us refuse to eat eggs:  what kind of human gratitude is it to kill the animal who gives you the eggs?  (We should not take away the eggs of another animal, nor should we take away her life—we live just fine without either).  Finally, Devine surely misses the point of the poem The Early Purges by Seamus Heaney.  The boy who watched the kittens murdered and felt compassion has now grown into a man who watches puppies murdered without compassion.  Surely this is lamentable, and not a sign of progress or something to be celebrated.

    • Bev says:

      04:30pm | 29/10/11

      acotrel says:02:04pm | 29/10/11

      So clever Not!

    • palone says:

      02:00pm | 30/10/11

      Erick’s had his ovaries removed? Well, that explains a lot.

    • nihonin says:

      07:18am | 29/10/11

      I get it, I get it, you’re a vego, so for that reason alone plants don’t feel pain or communicate or reproduce (how can you bee 100% sure though), I did love this last paragraph ‘The question is whether you make choices that minimise suffering, greenhouse emissions and wildlife habitat destruction, to name but a few, or you make choices to maximise your cruel and destructive impacts on the planet and its other creatures’. 

      So I take it, clearing land to construct farms to feed the masses after we all turn vego, doesn’t fall within the boundaries of the above paragraph.  I’m also assuming the manufacturing of all the chemicals required to grow, protect and harvest the produce of said farms, will have nil carbon influences on the environment.  There are plenty of other questions I could ask but then I’d have a comment as long as the article Geoff.

    • John says:

      08:08am | 29/10/11

      Wow.  Did you read the article?  We already have the farms that produce the plants that we feed to the animals that we eat.  If we eat the plants instead of feeding them to the animals we need less farmland.  This is the whole point of the article.
      Read it again!

      The bit I have issue with is the teeth grinding reference.  I was working on a large sheep station in the mid 80s, and I don’t recall anybody doing or talking about this practice.  And in the copy of the Code that I just downloaded, I found this:
      “Both teeth grinding and teeth trimming have the potential for causing acute and chronic pain in some animals.  In the absence of sound evidence on the benefits of teeth grinding and teeth trimming, they cannot be recommended as routine flock management procedures.”

    • VVS says:

      08:29am | 29/10/11

      Don’t bring logical argument into this!!!!

    • amanda says:

      08:40am | 29/10/11

      Well said….let’s have a balanced argument at least Geoff….

    • ali says:

      10:02am | 29/10/11

      i guess you didnt read the bit (and this is well known) that MORE than enough food for every human on the planet is ALREADY cultivated but is being diverted to the meat production industry where it produces far less caloric input.  therefore, no more agricultural production is required.  in fact agricultural production could presumably be scaled back and areas of high sensitivity/value could be revegetated for wildlife.

      its a win for everyone. 

      as for the chemical question - companies like monsanto and dupont are profiting off of destroying the environment (and making people sick).  there are effective ways to deal with pests and diseases, save extreme seasonal occurrences, that support the surrounding ecology, the plants and our own health.  most people approach these things with no logic at all - we grow too much cotton (requiring pesticides) instead of hemp, we grow rice in a country with too little consistent rainfall, monoculture crops instead of mixed with rotations, etc.  basically, modern farming is irrational and most people are poorly informed.

    • Jenny says:

      07:57am | 29/10/11

      An excellent article Geoff!

    • Damon says:

      08:06am | 29/10/11

      nihonin, where do you think the animals you eat get their protein from? I don’t think you understood Geoff’s article at all…

    • nihonin says:

      01:09pm | 29/10/11

      I eat fish (Salmon or Mackerel) Damon, very rarely eat red meat.

    • Bev says:

      04:36pm | 29/10/11

      nihonin says:02:09pm | 29/10/11

      I eat fish.  Where do you think they get their protein from?  Since only plants can photosynthesize every food chain starts with plants.

      Anyway the world fishing stocks are over exploited.

    • Richard says:

      08:09am | 29/10/11

      Vegetarianism, and in particular veganism, is a great scourge on the health of modern Australia. We need to be eating large quantities of red meat, that’s what made us strong in the first place..

      In any case, science shows that plants can both think: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10598926 and feel: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-secret-life-of-plants/

      Dude, just because the facts don’t shed the most flattering light on your religion (of lunatic veganism), doesn’t mean you can just slag them off without even bothering to produce any counter evidence.

      You are a pathetic excuse for thinker, and I sincerely hope that everybody can see you exposed as the hopeless fraud and hack that you are.

    • Geoff Russell says:

      09:59am | 29/10/11

      Does an automatic opening door on a bank know I’m interested in taking some money out? Plants have all manner of astonishing mechanisms, but they have nothing even remotely resembling a brain. Plenty of people believe at various time that their computer “hates them” when it doesn’t do as they want ... but it doesn’t ... it’s just a machine. The secret life of plants was debunked decades ago ... never replicated ... which is why we don’t have Plant Experimentation Ethics Committees which scrutinise scientific research on plants like we do Animal Experimentation Ethics Committees.  Your references are soft and prove nothing.

    • Damon says:

      05:50pm | 29/10/11

      Richard, this is an unjustifiably rude response which lacks even a token attemp at civility. You do your argument no favour with such an ad-hominem attack. People like YOU are the cause of much of the brutality in the world and I wish you would argue your positions in a respectful and decent fashion.

    • Richard says:

      10:30pm | 29/10/11

      Yeah, Damon’s right. Sorry Geoff~!

    • Fran Smith says:

      08:29am | 29/10/11

      Message to all the vegetarians out there - we meat eaters don’t care about your whinging and whining. We love our meat and you can look down your noses at us as much as you like, we aint gonna stop eating it. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a BBQ to prepare.

    • Bev says:

      09:56am | 29/10/11

      Like other such groups (the usual suspects) they think if the message is shouted enough times and they trash what others believe everybody will convert.  Wrong people will just dig in their heels and roll their eyes.

      While it can be shown that in many ways converting plants into animal protein is inefficient the fact remains that we are omnivours and even where the diet of a group of people is mainly plants they will eat animal protein when it is available because we are what we are. No amount of vegetarian zealotry will change that ever.

    • ali says:

      09:45pm | 29/10/11

      i guess what you are saying is that in the face of evidence for the environment, human welfare (famine), health and animal welfare, your right to choose (to eat meat) for reasons of taste will always trump what others of us consider to be moral obligations to our planet, other animals and our own species.  to simplify, yours is an argument for selfishness at a point in time when global famine and the greater part of climate change pressure could be eradicated by a non animal product diet. 

      its one thing to be torn over your knowledge and food choices (as many people i know are), and quite another to be wholly self righteous about.

    • Andrew says:

      04:28pm | 13/11/11

      Well said, Ali.

    • Joan says:

      09:36am | 29/10/11

      There is nothing like a smart aleck brainwashed 12 year old vegan spouting `my diet is wholier than yours.` Ten years down the track and he/she can be found tucking into a nice juicy steak at a BBQ.  To live, exist is all about death and life. To live you must eat,  to eat most times something dies be it plant or animal.  unless you are a cow eating diet of grass and hay- even then if allowed to its own devices the cow can kill the green grass from overeating at same spot. . The eating of pulses, beans, grains, prevents the potential for new life - the purpose of each plants existence is to reproduce . That`s life - something lives, something dies so something can live. Always has done,been and will be.

    • Eric The Red says:

      09:45am | 29/10/11

      That picture above looks an awful lot like Tony Abbott, I bet he has the same brain capacity as well.

    • Matt Tidswell says:

      09:57am | 29/10/11

      Brilliant article Geoff.

    • Mandy Deevine says:

      10:05am | 29/10/11

      Miranda Divine and the happy BBQers who’ve posted here present themselves and their justifications for perpetuating cruelty so typically idiotically. Anyone thinking, caring person can see that. Devine makes intelligent people question her obvoius dribble if they even bother to keep reading.

    • Bev says:

      05:01pm | 29/10/11

      Thanks for giving us your opinion of Miranda Divine.  Some agree with you some don’t.  Some would make similar comments about journalists you favour. It adds little to the discussion.

    • Lee Enfield says:

      10:09am | 29/10/11

      You don’t want to eat meat, fine, don’t eat meat, that is your choice. But do not try and stop others who choose to eat meat from doing so. Typical leftist behaviour, I don’t eat meat, so everyone should not eat meat.
      So sick of the leftists trying to force their beliefs and choices on to the rest of us because they apparently know what is best for all of us. If you choose to live your life in a certain way according to your beliefs, fine, but fuck off out of the rest of our lives and lets us live they way we want, without your smug and condescending attitudes.
      I take it then form his last paragraph, that the author does not drive a car, does not use electricity or buy or use any product that is made from oil or any other non renewable material that is mined.  Afterall that would be a choice that maximises global emissions and the destructive impact on the planet.

      The lefties are a cult, where freedom of choice and individuality are banned, and behaviour only in line with the Leftie mantra is tolerated. The lefties don’t educate they indoctrinate.

    • Geoff Russell says:

      12:50pm | 29/10/11

      “If you don’t want to keep slaves, that’s fine, but keep out of the way of those of us who do”, ... “If you don’t like beating women, that’s fine, but keep out of the way of those of us who like doing that” ... sound familiar?
      I don’t give a damn what you do if it doesn’t inflict suffering elsewhere.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      03:39pm | 29/10/11

      Oh please, eating meat is not the same as keeping human slaves or beating women, it is far more satisfying.

    • jf says:

      04:34pm | 29/10/11

      Geoff Russell says:01:50pm | 29/10/11

      “I don’t give a damn what you do if it doesn’t inflict suffering elsewhere.”

      Well stop writing these articles then. They’re painful to read.

    • Markus says:

      04:42pm | 29/10/11

      “If you don’t like beating women, that’s fine, but keep out of the way of those of us who like doing that” ... sound familiar?’
      Trust me Geoff, the pathetic and immature responses from vegan activists are all too familiar to most of us…

    • Bev says:

      04:45pm | 29/10/11

      Geoff Russell says:01:50pm | 29/10/11

      I don’t give a damn what you do if it doesn’t inflict suffering elsewhere.

      I presume you don’t use fly spray then?

    • Lee Enfield says:

      05:05pm | 29/10/11

      Are you seriously comparing eating meat to beating a woman and keeping slaves. I have heard some bullshit excuses and reasoning, but this lot takes the cake, surely you are just hamming it up..
      So should we kill all Lions, Tigers and any other carnivore on the planet, because the prey of these animals die slow, painful deaths as they are eaten alive, or should we indoctrinate these animals to go vegetarian.
      So I take that you don’t kill flies, cockroaches, mice, rats, etc, as they are animals and it would be wrong to kill them. What a pleasant place you must live in, or does your mantra only apply to the cute and cuddly animals.
      Considering the practices of slaughtering animals in Australia is regulated and done in the most humane way possible, I don’t see what your beef is.
      Just because you have a weak stomach and have trouble dealing with natures concept, that some animals on the planet are food sources for other animals, doesn’t give you the moral highground because you carry on like a pork chop, comparing eating meat to slavery and woman beating.

    • Alex says:

      06:06pm | 29/10/11

      Geoff, your comment is a fallacy.
      It has not been proven that animals posess the same capacity for suffering (both physical and mental) that humans do. To argue that the harvesting of animals for food is morally comparable to the keeping of slaves or the beating of women is false and does not address Lee Enfield’s argument.

      P.S. I’m sure you’ve never made those comments to victims of slavery or domestic violence have you?

    • Sneha says:

      03:20am | 30/10/11

      @Geoff Russell
      +1
      fanatics will not understand what you said because they are busy looking for relevance for self.

    • semi concerned citizen says:

      11:18am | 29/10/11

      Do people that don’t eat meat despise animals that eat other animals, Just wondering if you vego guys had checked out the slaughtering practices of say a wolf or a lion perhaps even a dingo? Any chance you wanna start a campaign there?

      P.S I love the way Orcas play with seals before crunching them

    • Sarah says:

      12:08pm | 29/10/11

      Do you always base your ethical and moral decisions upon what other animal species do?

    • Sharon says:

      12:27pm | 29/10/11

      LOL!

      This is equivalent to the pathetic “don’t carrots feel pain” defensive attack line. Can’t you come up with something more intelligent than that, in relation to human intelligence, behaviour and choices? Perhaps not.

    • xar says:

      11:37am | 29/10/11

      just one notation - the divide between ethical consumption and unethical comsuption is not vegetarian vrs. meat eater - there are a host of factors which could make an individual omnivorous diet far more ethical than an an indivdual vegetarians. Kindly stop presuming all meat eaters have reason for guilty consciences and that all vegetarians wear halos - because it doesn’t work that way.

    • Bev says:

      05:04pm | 29/10/11

      all vegetarians wear halos

      But but they must. They keep on telling us so.

    • Sharon says:

      06:12pm | 29/10/11

      @Bev… it’s about encouraging choices that do less harm. Not sure why you and others have a problem with that, unless you actually prefer to the path of more harm. If you do then don’t even bother reading let alone responding to articles like this. Unless of course you feel somehow threatened by such peaceful compassionate suggestions?

    • Lee Enfield says:

      09:28pm | 29/10/11

      Sharon: If it was just about encouragement most people wouldn’t mind. But like all leftist arguments, it starts off as encouragement, when the encouragement fails to have any impact on the rest of society, the calls for banning or taxing soon follow. 
      Also in some cases, it isn’t the message that is problem, it is the patronising, condescending and arrogant manner in which that message is delivered.
      That is the problem people have with left wing encouragement, it is a indoctrination in disguise, because when it falls on deaf ears, like it always does, the left wing solution is taxing and banning so their beliefs are forced upon the rest of society. Then they further annoy people by gloating with a holier than thou attitude when they successfully thrust their unwanted beliefs upon the rest of us.

    • xar says:

      09:28am | 31/10/11

      Sharon - it SHOULD be about encouraging choices that do no or less harm, but often it isn’t. It is often an angry ego trip which ignores any facts or reasonable possitions contrary to it’s own view.
      Lee - you could just as easily be talking about the right, the problem is NOT left or right, the problem is being totally unable to see an issue from all points of view & a compulsion to only listen to that which supports the prefered possition - there are ellements of that in every camp.

    • Sharon says:

      11:44am | 29/10/11

      Great article Geoff, thanks.

      As a child I often felt uncomfortable about eating meat, but succumbed to the family & social conditioning, meat industry sales myths and blissful ignorance for years, including several in rural Australia. As an adult I gradually opened my eyes, ears and mind to the bloody cruel realities behind it all and made the best decision of my life to go vegetarian 17 years ago. I’ve been an extremely healthy vegan for the past 11 years, which included two wonderfully healthy pregnancies producing vivacious extremely healthy children who are now 10 and 8 and have never experienced any hint of nutritional deficiencies.  There are so many myths and lies peddled by the animal ag industries to sell their product. Importantly they can no longer get away with suggesting that meat is “essential” for a healthy diet, because it isn’t.

      Yes, it is all about personal choice - to do less or more harm. Even choosing to eat less animal produce is a positive thing.

      When the choices cause significant pain, suffering and harm - to billions of animals, human health and our environment - Australia alone slaughters over 500 Million animals each year - surely it is a sign of a progressive and caring society to encourage choices that do less harm?

      “The human spirit is not dead.  It lives on in secret…. It has come to believe that compassion, in which all ethics must take root, can only attain its full breadth and depth if it embraces all living creatures and does not limit itself to mankind.”  ~Albert Schweitzer

    • Gorgon says:

      03:36pm | 29/10/11

      OMG
      We have red meat cancer deniers

      “Previous data have linked diets high in red meat, and particularly processed meat like bacon and sausage, to ill health and higher risk of death from cancer and heart disease. Now a new study adds to the evidence finding that people who eat more red and processed meats are more likely to develop colon cancer.

      According to the report, which uses data from an ongoing project by the American Institute for Cancer Research (AICR) and the World Cancer Research Fund, people who ate 3.5 ounces of red meat, such as beef, lamb and pork, every day had a 17% increased risk of developing colon cancer, compared with those who ate no red meat. People who ate 7 ounces of red meat a day had a 34% higher risk.”

      This study was published ten years after your link and coincidentally was not brought to you by research funded by the meat and livestock association.

      Bet you don’t think smoking causes cancer either
      Quackbud

    • Geoff Russell says:

      03:44pm | 29/10/11

      The World Cancer Research Fund’s 2007 report considered ALL the evidence and was quite clear about it. The report represents the consensus view of its 150+ authors from around the world.  In making that assessment they look not just at the body count but at possible causal mechanisms and the causal pathways behind the body count are pretty clear these days ... they know which parts of the meat are causing the genetic damage and almost all the steps between the damage and the cancer.  You can find individual studies on most sides of most causal questions in medicine, but judgements are made on the sum of the evidence. The fact, for example, that you know 15 people who smoked till they dropped and didn’t get lung cancer doesn’t falsify the causal claim. Ditto red meat.

    • marley says:

      05:47pm | 29/10/11

      Well, gentlemen, I’ve read a number of studies published in the last year or so.  And not one of them says, as Geoff does, that red meat causes cancer. 

      There’s a relationship between high (I repeat, high) levels of consumption of red and processed meats, and increased risk of cancer, but no reputable scientist would claim that red meat “causes"cancer.  No one has actually identified the causative mechanism, if there is one.  Until they do, there’s correlation, not causation.

      Further, the relationship between red meat and cancer is confounded by other associated lifestyle factors which are also related to cancer - obesity, lack of physical activity, smoking, alcohol, age. 

      And nothing I’ve seen suggests that moderate levels of red meat consumption constitutes a significant risk factor.  Heck, even high levels only constitutes a moderate risk factor.  Hardly worthy of some of the hyperbole being expended on the issue.

      Oh, and did we forget that there’s evidence that consumption of fish and chicken is a protective factor?

    • DocBud says:

      12:55pm | 30/10/11

      I do so love individuals like Gorgon who let all their prejudices hang out in response to a politely posed question based on a couple of references. 

      Well, Gorgon, I shall dignify your puerile intervention with a reply it does not deserve.

      One of the articles I linked to was from 2007, not exactly 10 years ago is it? Neither article refers to being funded by the meat and livestock association, the earlier study was reported to be “coordinated by the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer.”

      “Bet you don’t think smoking causes cancer either” Well, you’d lose your bet. I believe smoking causes cancer in smokers because Richard Doll’s work found relative risks ranging upwards from 6 to well into double digits depending on the amount smoked. It is a generally held rule of thumb that epidemiological studies with relative risks of less than 2 are not significant. The risks you quote are just statistical noise, as are the relative risks of passive smoking.

    • Observer says:

      01:25pm | 29/10/11

      Sure killing an animal may traumatise it for the rest of its life but they don’t have feelings once they’re dead, so it really doesn’t matter. So being a vegan doesn’t give you the moral high ground at all, my steak is not suffering one bit when I’m cooking and eating it.

    • Sharon says:

      03:39pm | 29/10/11

      So on that argument, killing any individual sentient being, including human, really doesn’t matter. What a ridiculous joke of an argument. Can’t you come up with anything intelligent? Perhaps not.

      As the wonderful Alice Walker once said “The animals of the world exist for their own reasons.  They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.”

    • Markus says:

      04:45pm | 29/10/11

      Sharon the whole point is we don’t need an argument, because we don’t care what you think. Nothing you say or do is ever going to stop me from eating meat.

    • Sharon says:

      06:08pm | 29/10/11

      Fine, then don’t bother reading this then. Leave it to others who are interested in expanding of their thinking and circle of compassion!

    • Observer says:

      07:17pm | 29/10/11

      Sharon you are an idiot.

      Everything on this planet is here to consume and be consumed. And yes women are here for men for without men they serve no purpose.

      Yakka wearing dykes like yourself will argue that women don’t need men, but you still need men to create the technology that allows you to reproduce without men.

      This is why men have, and always will rule the planet and eat meat. We are the most powerful force on the planet and we will always dictate the terms.

      And we eat meat, because animal protein is what makes us smarter and stronger

      Geoff Russells’ inept intelectual weakness is a perfect example of how humanity needs to consume animal protein to maintain our superior comand over the rest of life on the planet.

      This is what makes huMANity superior.

      If you don’t like it leave there are plenty of other planets in the universe.

      OH! but that would require MEN to give you the means to get there.

    • Sharon says:

      02:06pm | 30/10/11

      @observer. Dear, dear, didn’t mean to touch such a raw nerve. Where does all that bile and hatred come from? Please calm yourself.

    • Sharon says:

      04:21pm | 30/10/11

      @observer. by the way, your nasty homophobic accusation based on wildy incorrect assumptions just make you appear even more psychopathic.

    • Bev says:

      04:28pm | 29/10/11

      Sharon says:04:39pm | 29/10/11

      As the wonderful Alice Walker once said “The animals of the world exist for their own reasons.  They were not made for humans

      By that argument ants were not made for anteaters or krill for whales etc.  True nothing is made for anything but all living things exploit what they can find in resources.  It’s called the food chain and without it life would not exist.

    • Sharon says:

      06:21pm | 29/10/11

      @Bev..this is about choices that humans make.

      From your argument I guess you have no problem with killing (yourself of course) and eating any sentient animal.? I assume you have no problem with killing and eating a dog, panda, giraffe et al?  If so, then there is no point in someone like you even responding to articles like this that appeal to humans with a conscience and compassion. I don’t get why you bother even reading articles like this as you clearly treat non-human animals as inanimate machines that exist only for your use? Perhaps I am wrong, and you really are yearning to open your eyes, heart and mind to a kinder path. That may explain why you continue to read and respond to these posts perhaps? Peace and kindness to you for that.

    • observer says:

      09:21pm | 29/10/11

      Sharon, how old are you? I’m guessing about 14, if you are much older you are just ignorant..

      You have no idea how the world works. If I’m hungry I will eat anything, dog, cat, rat, spider,panda, fly, fish,snake,cockroach. What ever it takes to survive.

    • Lee Enfield says:

      10:03pm | 29/10/11

      No this argument is about some humans who think they know better than nature. Nature intended us to eat meat in our diet,  telling/forcing people to become vegetarian because you apply human feelings and emotions to other animals is not a strong argument.
      Fact of nature, animals eat other animals, humans included, hence why we are predators. Some people do eat giraffes, some people do eat dogs, what meat people eat depends on what animals are in their country. We eat cows, pigs, sheep, chickens thanks to the English, Aboriginals used to eat kangaroo, dugong, Goanna and emu.

      It doesn’t matter to the left that in Australia the meat we consume comes from animals that were slaughtered humanely. The left have their view, won’t compromise or listen to any other belief or opinion, and will try and force their opinion or belief on everyone else. If your opinion differs to that of the left doctrine, they resort to name calling, labelling and throw away meaningless lines and attack.

    • Cynicised says:

      04:37pm | 29/10/11

      I’m a “swing” consumer. My ethical instincts tell me that exploiting domestic animal species is wrong but my body tells me that I need haem iron, the only source being from red meat. It’s difficult for me to reconcile the two, especially since I also enjoy the taste and range of dishes that omnivorous eating allows. Consequently, at various stages of my life I’ve been lacto-ovo vegetarian (dairy products and eggs allowed), lacto-ovo-piscene (LO plus fish),vegan (no animal products of any kind allowed, including the wearing of leather or the consumption of gelatine), and have for a fraction of a second considered a fruitarian diet (which only allows the fruit and nuts of plants to be consumed, hence not causing the death of another living organism.) 

      This inability to choose an eating philosophy which satisfies both my physical needs as well as my psychological and spiritual needs, has been a source of some anguish in my life, so recently I decided to be pragmatic and to let my body rule my emotions on the subject, hence a return (to what is undoubtedly our natural state) omnivorousness.

      I understand and agree with the arguments for vegetarianism and admire those who are able to make  and abide by such dedicated ethical decisions in their lives, however I can’t criticize those who choose not to heed those arguments because I don’t myself, in practice. I also believe that vegans who insist on proselytizing from a “holier than thou” position undermine their own arguments by alienating carnivores. Dialogue and discussion is great. Preaching is not.

    • Tanya says:

      05:22pm | 29/10/11

      Great article Geoff. I myself stopped eating meat over a year ago and have never felt better. I still run marathons and ride my bike every day and have felt my general health improve. I get so sick of people’s incredulous “But how do you get your protein?!” exclamations, as if protein is the sole domain of meat. Then there’s the “But what about getting iron?”. My mother had an iron deficiency and she eats meat twice a day every day. I on the other hand have never had such problems.

    • stephen says:

      05:54pm | 29/10/11

      All you gotta do is exercize more.
      Don’t tax fat foods or ban TV’s or claim that microbes can be either good or bad - this last one will just kill TV evangelism - or the insistance that, (because by implication we are all victims and our sentiments, ie. those produced by the highest Poetry and Music and Art is lost to the laptop), the animal kingdom is our equal, and we should be grateful that we do not kill them any more.
      We should not rely on plants and animals for anything ... certainly not for a moral code.

    • michael j says:

      06:20pm | 29/10/11

      JESUS FN CHRIST Geoff , i hope you are telling piggiy lies about GRAZIERS being so fn stupid as to believe sharping a sheep’s teeth wif a angle grinder would/and probably still does improve the wool clip,,These people are known voters for the LIB/NAT parties and i can see why they kept this hush/hush AS a olde butcher/slaughter/killer of these tasty treats i can say i never seen no vampire teeth or cut me finger on a sheep’s tooth,but i suppose them clever GRAZIERS just pulled them teeth before they got to the
      meat-works knowing us LABOR votin scrummbags would never vote to work on vampire SHEEP

    • michael j says:

      07:39pm | 29/10/11

      my son just informed me that backpackers from countries well known for overstaying their visa’s could maybe been behind a gang of sheep dentist’s
      preying on Grazers who might be considered a tad slow or a day to long in the sun while riden the boundary,any-way die i will but there’s not much better than a roast lamb lunch, cept maybe a perfectly cooked piece of young marbled Rump Steak for dinner ,,mmmm yum/yum

    • Cynicised says:

      06:48pm | 29/10/11

      @tanya. It’s  true that vegetarians  generally acclimatize to a lower iron level than carnivores. However, I found that personally I never felt completely well exclusively gaining my iron from non-haem sources. Many vegos don’t realize that iron supplement tablets largely come from animals, so returning to meat eating was a necessary decision for me. You are lucky if your energy levels don’t feel compromised as mine did. (Haem obviously forms part of haemoglobin, which carries oxygen to the cells.)

      Btw, your mother’s iron deficiency may have had a totally intake-unrelated cause.(ie an absorption issue.)  I eliminated my lack of energy symptoms as soon as I returned to red meat.

    • Sharon says:

      07:11pm | 29/10/11

      @Cynicised. I’ve been vegan for 11 years and vegetarian for 6 prior and never had an iron deficiency. Have never needed iron supplements, even during my 2 very healthy vegan pregnancies that went to full term with absolutely no deficiency or other health problems, and produced two beautiful very healthy normal weight babies who are now 10 and 8 and continue to thrive and are extremely energetic and smart. If you do your research and eat a well balanced veg diet, (as me and my family do)  it will provide more than enough of all the nutrients you need.

      PS. I’ve been a regular blood donor the whole time.

    • Sharon says:

      07:11pm | 29/10/11

      @Cynicised. I’ve been vegan for 11 years and vegetarian for 6 prior and never had an iron deficiency. Have never needed iron supplements, even during my 2 very healthy vegan pregnancies that went to full term with absolutely no deficiency or other health problems, and produced two beautiful very healthy normal weight babies who are now 10 and 8 and continue to thrive and are extremely energetic and smart. If you do your research and eat a well balanced veg diet, (as me and my family do)  it will provide more than enough of all the nutrients you need.

      PS. I’ve been a regular blood donor the whole time.

    • Cynicised says:

      10:42am | 30/10/11

      @Tanya. Sincerely, good for you, but you are not me. I did my research and understood a lot about a healthy vego diet, ie Vit C with iron-containing foods to aid absorption; the need to include yeast to get enough Vit B12; eating plenty of nuts and green leafy vegetables for calcium etc. I also ate very well, I just didn’t like how lethargic I felt without haem iron. 

      What works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for all. The mistake that many vegos make in trying to convert omnivores is making the assumption that everyone will make the adjustment to a vego diet easily. That  is simply not so, for many reasons. Your point about needing research and care to eat a balanced vegetarian diet (especially a vegan one) is one of the major reasons that many will not ever attempt it, even if they are influenced by arguments. Omnivores don’t need to be so meticulous, it’s easy to get all your nutrients in sufficient quantities. Many people don’t want to have to think that carefully about the food on their plate.

      Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not arguing against vegetarianism, but I am trying to point out reasons why it won’t ever be the choice that every person makes. Vegos need to respect that fact, the same as omnivores need to respect vegos for their  choice.

    • Cynicised says:

      10:45am | 30/10/11

      Oops, my last comment was @ Sharon.

    • Tanya says:

      01:57pm | 30/10/11

      @Cynicised: You seem to be assuming that my post was in direct reply to yours, which just happened to be published right above my own.

      It wasn’t. I was just making my own independent comment based on my own experience, to Geoff’s article.

      I don’t actually take iron tablets because like I said, I’ve never had an iron deficiency. I’ve been checked by a doctor and I am fine. So I must be getting it from somewhere else. I don’t know where, because I don’t really bother looking into these things!

      But it must be the case that neither protein nor iron are the sole domains of meat, otherwise I’d be an iron and protein deficient, malnourished weakling with barely the energy to stand up, as so many people assume!

      That is just the point I was trying to make. And yes you’re probably right, I am probably lucky, as is my boyfriend (who also does not eat meat) who rides his bike over 100km per week. Both of us have been able to continue participating in endurance sports and feel great.

      By the way, is anyone aware here that the great Carl Lewis (100m champion and former record holder. In running, that is) is a vegetarian? He was right though the time he was competing to now. I wonder how he got his protein??!!

    • Cynicised says:

      04:12pm | 30/10/11

      @ Tanya. I made no such assumption, I merely noticed the interesting juxtaposition of our posts.

      As I said to Sharon, I know that many vegos lead healthy lives and do not feel any lack of energy, however, as I’ve also pointed out, not all who eat a vegetarian diet feel healthy (even if it’s balanced.) I didn’t. To be honest, many vegos don’t look healthy either. Maybe it’s the pallor.

    • Erika Abrams says:

      09:39pm | 29/10/11

      Everyone will be ethically safe who chooses a course in life to consume simply less, endeavor to cause the least pain possible to others, respect all life forms and try to protect as many as you can. When in doubt, consume less stuff. When in doubt, assume sensitivity in others and spare others pain whenever you can.  Simplify your life. Simplify your new life, and simplify your new life. Experience the new exhilaration of consuming less and enjoying the natural world more.

    • Jase says:

      06:00am | 30/10/11

      Well I enjoy a nice steak, or lamb etc on a regular basis. I cant say that I eat it for the protein, more so given the option of some tofu over a steak, well the steak is going to win out every time.

      What the vego’s forget is that in nature, lots of animals do not discriminate when it comes to hunting food for their own. Do you think the lion spared a thought for the gazelle prior to killing it, in what looks like a rather painful death? I doubt it.

    • Alex says:

      07:23am | 30/10/11

      NEW FLASH?
      Why hasn’t anybody pointed this out yet?

    • Kipling says:

      07:52am | 30/10/11

      It seems patently clear that you are either with us or against us, regardless of who the particular us happens to be.

      Personally, I eat some meat. I put a fair degree of time and effort into sourcing dead things that have at least been cared for and ethically killed. The suffering is minimised hopefully.

      A big driver for reducing my meat intake has been the ignorant and arrogant treatment of defensless animals in the name of profit and the ignorant and arrogant justifications of this being held as an ongoing practice. To suggest that it has not been proven that “animals” feel pain is ludicrous and, if you are in the camp that firmly believe this then try this quick test, get a serated knife and chop one of your own fingers off with it. Given animals don’t feel pain you should be pretty right, after all, you are an animal…

      As to plants “feeling” perhaps it is us, the human animal, who are simply incapable of understanding the complexity of plant life. Sure I get it, they don’t have a brain but that might not be the end of it, of course it might be as well. The point though is about the ethical treatment of that which we eat be it plant or animal.

      Comparisons to the human animal’s practices and other species are also a little bit problematic, given that we (humans) claim to be a higher order of species and smarter. Consequently we have a capacity to feel empathy and to understand the suffering we cause, perhaps other species do not. Surely if it is ok to judge other species by our own standards then it should be equally appropriate to apply the same degree of rights to other species.

      In short, we seem to embrace behaving like a spoilt, self obsessed immature species acting without concience, fore though, integrity or reflection.

      That seems something that vegos and meatos both happily ignore…

    • skal says:

      08:38am | 30/10/11

      out of interest what happens to the huge numbers of animals reared for their meat once we all stop eating it - can’t see many farmers caring for them or allowing them onto their land if they can’t amke a living from them…

    • Kelly E says:

      11:32am | 22/11/11

      It’s quite simple, we stop breeding them.

    • skal says:

      08:38am | 30/10/11

      out of interest what happens to the huge numbers of animals reared for their meat once we all stop eating it - can’t see many farmers caring for them or allowing them onto their land if they can’t make a living from them…

    • Sharon says:

      09:18am | 30/10/11

      @skal. Demand and supply - as demand gradually reduces, supply will too.

    • Lee Enfield says:

      10:02am | 30/10/11

      Still have not answered what happens to the species. Do cows, pigs, sheep, chickens become wild animals? Or do the species slowly become extinct because they have no grazing land to live off and no longer serve a purpose,as demand and supply gradually reduce.
      Are you advocating the extinction of species of animals because we should not eat them and extinction is far more humane than eating them.

    • Sharon says:

      03:40pm | 30/10/11

      OK, I’ll expand a little more ... as demand reduces, so too will the number of animals deliberately bred by producers. If farmers continue to breed animals in the face of falling demand, then that wouldn’t be in their best financial interest. The progressive farmers will switch to more sustainable plant options where viable, and/or turn part/all of their property to renewable energy like wind and solar. Growing crops to feed to animals to then feed to humans is the most resource-intensive option (land, water & energy), and the most inefficient way to produce protein. Around 80% of the cleared land in Australia is used for animal production, and some 70% of that is significantly degraded because of it (SoE report 2006). But I don’t imagine a day when the whole human population is vegan , unless the environmental damage and minimal natural resources left actually force this, which could possibly eventuate in the future given that a plant-based diet uses significantly less land and water, and creates far less ghg emissions.  I do certainly see a significant reduction in animal agriculture over time to be a positive reality.

    • palone says:

      11:41am | 30/10/11

      My wife’s father never ate meat for 21 years. My father ate meat every day. Her Dad died at 87, and mine passes away when 77. Proof of anything? Maybe.
      Her father diesd in a nursing home, mine got run over by a semi while chasing down a kangaroo on the Hume Highway. He loved his roo steaks, did that old bugger.

    • Sally says:

      03:36pm | 30/10/11

      Great article Geoff! Reading through the comments it certainly seems that Sam Neil was way off with the claim that meat is brain food!!!

    • MK says:

      08:03pm | 30/10/11

      @Geoff Russell… Sorry
      I stopped reading when you said you had a maths degree

      did you have a point?

    • Gordon says:

      08:47pm | 30/10/11

      There is no doubt that if you promote ethics to the highest priority, and expand your purview to the entire world (galaxy, universe…) you would never eat meat, step on an ant, etc.  But the organ with which we develop ethics, our brain, evolved to help us catch and eat stuff (and avoid the stuff that wants to catch & eat us). Caring, and ethics evolved because survival requires we care for our family and treat nearby others fairly to avoid needless life-threatening conflict. Nobody said we have to necessarily adopt every creature in the the whole world. There is something foolish about using the evolved intelligence of a hunter to think ourselves into a position that denies our nature. Our mind can think us into all sorts of silly shit: scientology springs to mind. Doesn’t make it correct.

      The case for adopting vegetarianism for survival’s sake is also not made. One easy contra example: we can’t digest cellulose (i.e. what grass is made of) but cows can. Raising animals, which can be done perfectly sustainably on grassland if done right, gives humans a food source that is unavailable without buggering up that grassland with imported crops..A sustainable pastoral industry is 100% consistent with long term survival. In short…be a veg if you want to, don’t be too upset if only a few others follow your lead.

    • Geoff Russell says:

      01:14pm | 31/10/11

      Anything is sustainable in small enough quantities. Only 8.4% of the current global production of meat is produced from pure grazing ... (see Livestock’s Long Shadow), so if you are happy to slash global meat consumption to that amount, then it will be sustainable. Well, no. Not even then, because we need to reforest the planet to draw down carbon and more than a little of that grassland will need to be reforested. Eg all the brigalow cleared in QLD and large parts of Africa that would be forest except for annual burning.

      Certainly tiny levels of meat consumption would be sustainable, but its really sweet bugger all.

      As to your “ethical reasoning”. We men have been killing our human enemies and raping their women ever since we split from the chimps ... but we now think it horrid behaviour and imprison people for this.  Happily, we aren’t condemned to live in the future as we did in the past.

    • MK says:

      09:16pm | 30/10/11

      Dear Geoff,

      I do not like unecessary animal suffering,
      I understand that feeding crops to livestock uses a lot of resources, though not all meat is grainfed, some is grassfed in non-arable land.
      I can see there could be health benefits for a well planned vegetarian/vegan diet, (vegan would be harder though)
      Though a 17% higher chance of bowel cancer is not really something that is going to keep me up at night.
      I have tried being both vegetarian and vegan, though the longest i went vegetarian was a month, and vegan only a week a few times.
      I have and do consider not eating meat….
      I could the exact type of person for whom an article might be just enough to sway me over,

      However everytime i read one of your articles,
      it just makes me want to find the biggest meat plate i can lift
      and fire up the BBQ. raspberry

      Try again
      and for a change try something different
      PS. the black and white profile pic works well for you, makes you look less anaemic

    • Carlos says:

      02:57pm | 02/11/11

      Hey Geoff, I really liked this article, but reading the comments makes me truly sad. It just blows my mind how all these meat-eaters come on here to make nasty remarks about how vegans try to “force their beliefs” and take the “moral high ground.”

      What they don’t realize is that being vegan isn’t just a matter of animal cruelty, but also environmental and health issues. Maybe it’s just a case of cognitive dissonance, but I’m tired of hearing excuses where people claim “it’s personal choice so leave me alone.” Well OF COURSE it’s personal choice, but unfortunately most people are unable to make a sensible one. Instead, they decide to fuel an industry which causes much suffering, water pollution, land degradation, greenhouse emissions, obesity, heart disease, cancer, and much more. This is what frustrates me as a vegan. 

      It’s also such a shame that an intelligent species could be so ignorant. All these people claiming that “we are omnivores” and “it’s natural to eat meat” haven’t a clue what they are talking about. It’s understandable that people have been brainwashed and don’t see anything inherently wrong with eating meat, but common sense and a little bit of research goes a long way.

    • Samantha O says:

      11:21am | 04/11/11

      Hi Carlos, We need education and openness so consumers can ALL make an informed choice not just a minority percentage of us who feel strongly about the negatives.There is no transparency so meat consumers cannot make an informed choice and probably a majority of them have little if any idea where their food comes from and how it gets to them. When the fear, blood, smell, sound, mud, dirt, dust, gore, labour and other components are removed and the products are cleanly packaged in neat rows in a climate controlled environment it is easy for people to not think about what they are buying only the cost savings and what they want to consume. We ALL need to see where our food comes from. Perhaps those who want to eat other living beings should be required to slaughter the animals themselves, humanely, in the old fashioned way, in real living sounds and colour. Also I have flat grinding teeth so I do not believe I am supposed to eat meat. Just a thought but if it interests you please pass that thought on to others to see if it can reduce meat consumption.

    • Braydan says:

      10:12pm | 02/11/11

      I wonder if the “the number of animals killed per loaf of bread, per peach, per egg and per pork chop are all about the same” when you include the impact of crops on insect and other invertebrates. Did the Professor’s argument come form a paper, and did it clarify what animals made up the weights calculated?

    • Braydan says:

      09:02pm | 06/11/11

      No answer? I’m really interested to know.

    • Andrew says:

      04:43pm | 13/11/11

      You might have to Google his name and look for his output ... or ring him up and ask.

    • Samantha O says:

      09:52am | 04/11/11

      I avoid using cruelty generated products whenever I can. I choose not to eat any cruelty ‘produce’, especially meat because of the cruelty in the industry and the illogical excuses to constantly perpetrate cruelty to animals in the name of profits and cutting costs. Torturing animals because it the most convenient and cost saving method is not acceptable. And the gratuitous waste of meat and other food which has huge implications right through the spectrum needs to stop as it is unsustainable. A better way of producing food needs to be found to reduce the waste and therefore the ever rising costs which are passed on and all concerned complain about but do not change their practices, except to find ever worsening ways to keep the animals to reduce the costs. Those who wish to eat meat can choose a small private farmer with a boutique operation, somewhat humane or inexpensive, there aren’t many choices when it comes to food and treating animals humanely. The point is they ARE animals, mammals which have a spine and therefore feel pain, so it is inhumane and illogical to make any excuses why these cruelties are being committed. Our current way of life does not portray us as the intelligent specie over the species we abuse. I accept that some people want to eat meat ,so that meat should come from an animal that is treated humanely and killed humanely, while it is an animal, before it becomes meat. To me this is the minimum level, the marker of decency which we should all meet and should be ingrained as second nature. Any less is a blight on us and it is only a matter of time before we ourselves will be treated similarly. Cruelty to animals is exactly that and it needs to stop.

    • Kelly E says:

      11:52am | 22/11/11

      I’ve been a healthy vegetarian for 13 years, and I stopped eating fish three years before that… No supplements needed, no health issues at all. I’m also studying to be a nutritionist.

      With that in mind, I’m all for a sustainable meat industry. If animals were farmed/killed in such a way that was better for the environment and for us, then GREAT! I wouldn’t eat it but I’d be much happier knowing that the steak my boyfriend is tucking into is better for the planet.

      Is there any reason we can’t tone our meat-eating down to say, 2-4 meals per week and make a conscious decision to eat kangaroo or other locally sourced and humanely-killed meats? Is that really so hard to do? I don’t want to take away your right to choose, but I do want the planet to, you know, survive past the next few generations…

      From my research so far, it seems the ‘best’ diet is one that relies heavily on vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, seeds and water, with animal-based sources making up only a small portion of your diet.

      Have any of you omnivores thought to sit back and think about why you feel such a dependence on it and need to defend your meat-eating so voraciously? I’m genuinely interested to know your thoughts aside from the ‘i like meat and it’s my choice to eat it’ argument.

    • Anonymary says:

      01:16pm | 25/11/11

      Great article.. thank you.. also Miranda Devine shouldnt be a journalist as she doesnt write - she merely vomits on a page

 

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They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

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