NBN: A potential national financial disaster?

@CraigLambie says:

08:53am | 22/12/10

I will take your $7B bet sure.
Only if you take into account the full benefits that will come from NBN.

- Health
People will be able to have diagnosis done from either their own homes with the NBN connection sending live HD quality video of them to high end specialists that don’t like to travel, with only a trained nurse to help with the diagnosis, which leads me onto my next point
- Transport
People will not need to travel to the office anymore to work / meet with people.  The need to be in the office by 9am will be hugely reduced allowing people the freedom to choose to only come into the office for meetings or social reasons (office workers)
This will hugely reduce the need for infrastructure investment in new roads, rail and other projects that have been suggested as other places to spend the money.

We are over 10 years behind in Telecommunications investment in Australia.  The NBN should of happened back in the 90s.
The NBN is not going to “make money” for the Govt, therefore Australians, it is going to significantly improve our lives.  Just like that remote control, or computer that you don’t fully realise, if you start to think outside the box, and use the tools you have at your disposal, you will find your life greatly improved.

Christopher says:

09:17am | 22/12/10

Craig,

How dumb are you??
Instead of going to the doctor we are going to hook up via live HD video, and this leads me onto my next point where we wont need to travel as much so the government wont need to spend as much on roads and rail. What happens when you have something that the doctor needs to see in person, you are going to be forced to use the roads and what if you want to go outside to see friends and family rather than on “live HD video”???

If you are going to contribute to a blog, please make it a constructive contribution.

Ben says:

09:53am | 22/12/10

Thing is Crag, all of those things you mentioned can be done on the current national networking infrastructure. Anyone who says differently is lying.

@CraigLambie says:

10:05am | 22/12/10

@Christopher
I work in IT, and have in depth discussions with Health professionals about the implications of the NBN.
How dumb are you? Do you even know what you are talking about? Obviously not.  The fact that you could get an initial diagnosis via NBN would save a long trip and huge expense, if the doctor then decided they need to actually see the person to make a diagnosis only then would they need to travel.
All the tests, talking and other diagnosis could take place in a regional hospice, or even in the home.
Think outside the box Christopher, or you will stay locked up in the dark, maybe we should put you in the Matrix, then you can stay in 1984 for ever without changing the way things are done, ever.

Ben C says:

10:30am | 22/12/10

@ CraigLambie - Yes, doctors are going to diagnose whether or not that mark on your skin is a mole or a cancer just by looking at it over HD video. They’re going to be able to see whether that cough of yours is a result of bronchitis or a minor infection.

Now, I’m no doctor, but I have enough common sense to know that there is a higher chance of misdiagnosis where the patient is not physically in front of the doctor. Are doctors going to take that chance just because they have access to the NBN? Yes, there are going to be benefits, like a consultation where the patient does not have to present symptoms - situations such as looking at an X-ray, or discussing blood test results - but where doctors are required to diagnose illnesses instantaneously, the NBN ain’t gonna do squat to help the cause.

Transport - I’d love to be able to work from home. Unfortunately for me, files must not be taken out of the office (client confidentiality and security purposes) - how’s the NBN going to benefit me and millions of other people with similar policies at their workplaces?

MarK says:

11:32am | 22/12/10

Sigh.

Craig you are lying or spinning. Whatever.

The fact of the matter is travel is only a small inconvenience for the patient.

There will still be waiting lists. You think it will be just a case of saying goddam I have caught cancer when you wake up and hopping on the net for a consultation?

Really?

How will this speed anything up?

We are saving some patients some trips for $50billion. Is that it? The NBN does not create more doctors. It does not put more hours into the day.

And working from home? There is nothing to stop that from occurring now apart from the logistical and team loss problems that would need to be overcome for a lot of professions. It doesn’t rely on the NBN to do this.

Gregg says:

12:01pm | 22/12/10

@Craig,
No point in asking how dumb you are when you are a real dope!
With ” I work in IT, and have in depth discussions with Health professionals about the implications of the NBN. ” really! and just what concrete has come out of these supposedly in depth discussions?

I’ll give you a few leads from practical experience:
. Well over a decade ago the technology already existed for Xrays to be transmitted, thing is your theoretical patient at home is not likely to have an Xray machine letalone a CT unit or whatever, nor likely to be able to take a blood pressure or do a blood analysis.
That’s all the kind of stuff you usually arrange on a visit to a GP and get some stuff done and then back to the GP who may advise on seeing a specialist.
. Have you heard of medical practitioners insurance?
And just how many do you think will be doing diagnoses online other than coming up with something like I agree ith your GP you had better book into see me.
At that stage a specialist will likely have a whole heap of other tests that you may require.
Sure there are some services already established where medical services/doctors may communicate with oneanother and they are doing it without the NBN.

Then when it comes down to something real simple like getting a regular prescription for medication and there’s no doctor in town if the government wanted to introduce a remote prescription service they could do that very simply withoiut the need for an NBN.

All this fairytale stuff from Gillard/Conroy about eMedicine and eEducation is more just a big Con for since when did education need live hook-ups to educational lectures etc. from abroad when recordings can be made.

You ought to think outside the square a little yourself and start looking at the problems that are already persisting with NBN connections in Tassie and you might just get a handle on what ongoing costs and standard of service could be.
Not surprisingly Conroy has been quite glib about Tassie and even Armidale being testing locations for a new system!
WTF!!!!!!!!! Alarm bells need to be ringing very loudly for should we be spending billions on anything but a proven system?

@CraigLambie says:

12:05pm | 22/12/10

@Ben - You are incorrect, have you ever been outside of the Metropolitan areas?  Current infrastructure can barely handle ADSL 1, let alone consistent ADSL2+ speeds (ie. even 8 Mbps)
The current infrastructure is antiquated, and needs replacing regardless, are you suggesting Telstra fork out to install new copper - as if this would happen.

@Ben C - Correct you are not a doctor, so don’t give your opinion on the ability to diagnose bronchitis across HD video.
Actually the NBN will do plenty to help doctors with instant diagnosis, and there are projects already being planned to take advantage of it.
Information exchange is the most important thing for diagnosis.
The NBN will make more doctors available for initial diagnosis.  Good system implementation will mean better use of resources and increased productivity from the current doctors and specialists that we have.  Imagine a GP in Mildura getting an instant consult from a specialist in Melbourne or Sydney?  This is possible with the NBN.
As to more hours in the day, this is totally possible with efficient use of resources.
Won’t bring more doctors - no correct the NBN will not train more doctors, but it will make more doctors available to patients in remote areas that need them.  We in Australia believe in equal access to health, well now regional Australia will have access to high end specialists without travelling for hours and hours.

Working from home due to file restrictions is a simple IT problem, this can be easily fixed with the right systems and IT knowledge.  Do some research.  Companies are letting people work remotely more and more, with the introduction of collaboration tools like Google Docs and Microsoft Sharepoint it doesn’t matter where you are.  Security of information is a big part of this.
Taking files home, I presume you mean having access to company servers from a home computer.  Remote Desktop applications can be locked down to only allow the remote computer to move files on that network, not down to the “local” one.
Anything is possible, you just have to open your mind a little to the possibilities on offer.

@MarK
Given you quote the price of the NBN almost double the actual cost, I have nothing to say to respond to your obviously ill informed opinions.  If you would like to throw a decent argument, I would happily retort.

Tom says:

12:35pm | 22/12/10

@Christopher Just because you didn’t agree with Craig’s post doesn’t mean it wasn’t constructive. As for your own point, I think you need to take your own advice.

MarK says:

12:39pm | 22/12/10

Yeh Craig I am used to that. People that can’t respond to my arguments usually say stuff like you.

So you have read the business plan yes?

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2010/12/20/1225973/864345-aus-file-nbn-corp-plan.pdf

There it is if you have not.

Look at Page 23

Capital expenditure to Dec 2020 - $35.9 billion - up $200 million form the summary figure given last month

Operational Expenditure - $21.8 billion to Dec 2020 of which $13.7 is a payment to Telstra.

So what I did is take the capex of $36 billion and add the payment to Telstra which they claim as opex and hence a saving at $14 billion to get…..

$50billion.

Now you are confusing the headline figure of $27billion which is the expected government equity injection. You are forgetting to add the borrowings and the forecast use of internal revenue to fund the build.

I will explain something to you as you seem confused. If they get no borrowings because the thing doesn’t styack up to investors the government will have to kick in the whole $36 billion capex and $14 billion to Telstra.

If the revenue is nit sufficient to pay the debts what do you think happens?

The taxpayer kicks in.

Rememebr all of our copper is decommissioned. It ain’t there anymore.

Of course since this is a monopoly 2 things can happen.

The government takes flack for increasing taxes to prop it up or the NBN simply raises prices. I wonder what the government preferred option is.

So you see Craig I really think it is you with the huge isuue re the price of the network.

If you think I have anything wrong do not hesitate to correct me. Please tell me what the depreciable amount of the asset built will be.

I wait with bated breathe for you response.

Feel free to ask me other questions by the way. I am the proverbial fount of knowledge.

Ryan says:

12:55pm | 22/12/10

@CraigLambie: here is an experiment, how about the next time you are to see the doctor you take an HD video and send it in for diagnosis.. Lets hope it isn’t anything life threatening.
On the Transport side, well a good 80% of companies can do that RIGHT NOW but they don’t, why? because of old school management mentality and a lack of planning (or will to plan) in middle management. The problem with this is not the communications network, the problem is that the government needs to offer incentives to get people to work from home.. won’t happen under this backward, short sighted,  incompetent Labor government.

Ben C says:

12:55pm | 22/12/10

@ CraigLambie - no, I mean actual paper files, like those that you put in a big metal box called a filing cabinet. There are many workplaces that still use these. If everything was on the network, I know I can get access remotely - I’m not slouch with a computer. How about you think outside your own little box and realise that not everyone is using electronic data, that there are many millions of people that are still dealing with paper files everyday.

Daniel says:

01:00pm | 22/12/10

Because comparing the emergency spending of the GFC stimulus packages is totally a valid comparison.

The Dark Knight says:

02:43pm | 22/12/10

This is the funniest thread i have read all day!!
Keep up the good work peeps!!

MarK says:

02:52pm | 22/12/10

How is page 23 of the report going Craig?

It isn’t that big

Lisa says:

03:40pm | 22/12/10

How does a doctor take your blood pressure over a HD connection?

Likes Joining Dots says:

03:51pm | 22/12/10

@Craig

Many people have been able to work from home for years (at least 25 years in my experience) using remote connections, but it has rarely happened. Why? Blame management, blame someone, anyone - but bosses want you at work - the NBN speed will not change that simple fact.

Similarly with e-health.  Both myself and my doctor have been in a position to exchange and diagnose information electronically for years - yet it has never happened. Why? It was possible years ago.  So he could not diagnose me in standard definition, he had to wait for high definition to make that call? Is he waiting for 3D HD now? He still won’t do it.

The NBN is not new technology. It is the same technology, just faster and still subject to the non-technological standards or expectations that have previously applied in everything we do.

@CraigLambie says:

04:15pm | 22/12/10

1. Unmount Internal SD Card>
2. Format

@MarK
You would appear to have a reasonably argument there.
A couple of holes I have to point out.
1.
The reason it is listed as OpEx as they must have a deal with Telstra to pay them an annual fee for the use of their ditches, as they use them.  Kinda of like when the Banks sold all their Branches and rented them back, this is fairly standard operating procedure, so you really can’t count that as a capital expense.

2.
The reason the copper is being decommissioned is that it doesn’t actually work anymore, and/or it is to expensive to fix/ maintain.  Hence needing to get rid of it.  As a Telstra shareholder one might like the idea of being paid for this massive investment that is pretty worthless.

3.
You might like to note that there is a $20B income over the period you are talking about, which is going to cover the payments to Telstra.
You might think “what if people don’t take it up” well - they will, what property owner would allow their property to be “off grid” in the 21st century, regardless of whether you want internet, phone, pay tv or any other form of communication, it will come down on this “pipe” so, as they are in Brunswick, people will take this up as it rolls out.  Let alone the fact that you would have to pay 10x more to get it connected at a later stage.

As to the Tax payer kicking in and paying for the full $36B, that is pretty unlikely, there are stacks of Super Funds around that are looking for a nice long term blue chip investment, hey they invested in Tollways, why wouldn’t they invest in the future of telecommunications.

So if you are going to quote the Biz plan, the most you could hold over is $37B expenditure.

@Ryan
I would love to be able to do that.  Unfortunately the Health system is not setup to do this as yet, as nothing like the NBN has come along to make them think of it yet.

@Ben C
If your company are so antiquited that they still “store” things using paper, then maybe the NBN is a good opportunity for them to upgrade to a more modern approach of document storage and retrieval.  I help companies make this move everyday, with the modern age of computing you can find files faster, never lose documentation and never have to carry around big heavy stacks of paper based storage… I can fit 200,000 reams of paper on my phones internal memory, let alone the fact that I can access the entire internet from it, why would anyone still use paper?  As @Ryan suggests it is due to management mentality - and they are the problem, but more and more companies are following the leaders and moving to systems that properly utilise IT systems.

@Tom
Thanks for the support

@MarK
Sorry - I have a job, a life, other things to do than carefully monitor a thread on the punch… I have obviously taken the time to have a quick glance at the report, and you can see my remarks above.

@CraigLambie says:

04:17pm | 22/12/10

@Lisa - if you read a little more carefully you would find that a trained nurse would be assisting the doctor in his diagnosis - as in with you in a room.
Or your local GP.

Craig says:

04:24pm | 22/12/10

That’s never going to happen, do you really think doctors are going to be able to get medical indemnity insurance for consultations conducted over the internet. You work in IT, yeah so do the guy’s on telstra bigponds help desk, that doesn’t mean they know what their talking about.

MarK says:

07:28pm | 22/12/10

@Craig

1. We can argue about the relative merits and correct accounting for the payment to Telstra but let us agree on one thing. Telstra will be sitting there getting paid $13billion. Account for that on revenue or capital account (love to see the ATO interpretation on it) Telstra will still get a cheque one way or another which means cash has flowed.

It is a cost of the business. - it is why they need cash from the government + borrowings in excess of $40 billion. They hope and pray to pay the balance out of operating cash flow.

50 vs 37 - meh…..they are both best case scenarios. Best Case….

2. No you are wrong. The copper is being decommissioned because it is a direct competitor to the NBN. Along with the copper going Telstra is being paid to shut down its HFC network. This of course runs through the capitals etc. This is a payment to ensure this is shut. You will note they still make an allowance for Optus cable users because they cannot find an economic way to shut them down. Hence the needless duplication a lot of this system brings.

The other bonus that you sort of touched on is the unbelievable concession they give to to Telstra taking the USO off them. It is incredible Telstra is actually getting paid to rid itself of a liability.

So Telstra gets roughly 1/3 of its market cap as cash, gets to rid itself of a depreciating asset and an ongoing service liability.

The NBN actually cashes up its main competitor and remains a huge ongoing cost from it.

Does not seem smart to me. Helloooooooo 4G.

3. They forecast that there will be $20 billion in revenue to 2020. Most business budget out a a few years. Past that is a guess. We are told the speed that technology moves and changes and yet they give us a 30 year plan and you are satisfied.

The truly scary thing is telecommunication cost have been and are falling in real terms over time.

the business plan does not address this.

So question.

What if the projection are wrong.

What if revenue is $10 billion?

What then?

In any case if the build from cash flow it is still a cost that will go on capital account. They will not leave it off in some accounting nirvana. they will show it and depreciate it.

Your faith in the government and its ability to get it right is admirable but flys in the face of all evidence in any of its actions to date.

Oh and the Superfund thing. Blue chip? This? There is not a prospectus out. Rudd and Swan actually contravened a few laws by spruiking this as an investment originally.

This is a utility at best. No self respecting fund manager will be tossing wads of cash at this.

Ben C says:

08:25pm | 22/12/10

@ CraigLambie

Try working in tax, then see how much paper you need. With the ATO sending the majority of correspondence via post, how could you not use an “antiquated” system? With the amount of workpapers that you need for a tax return, how could you go completely paperless? When we do audits, where we have to physically mark papers, everything needs to be on paper. Company minutes need to be on paper. When you look at it that way, it’s not antiquated at all, like I said earlier, there are many other organisations that still use paper and filing cabinets. There are some industries where there is no choice but to use paper.

For a firm of our size (6 staff), and with minimal work to be done outside the office, the NBN ain’t gonna be of much use for us, especially since most of our software does not require internet access.

@CraigLambie says:

07:06am | 23/12/10

@Craig
I work in IT, I am a consultant, BA and Developer. I work on huge systems that are designed to reduce paper and increase work flow, efficiency.
As to Doctors getting insurance, it will be the hospitals that are making this happen, and they will get it.

@MarK
1.
Yes we could argue all day about accounting, and at the end of the day never agree.  Accountants can make things look like they are profitable or not, that is just life, so if you want to believe we don’t need it due to cost, listen to those figures, if you don’t then listen to mine.

2.
On what documented basis are you suggesting the copper is only being decommisioned due to its competition with NBN?
I have heard from high up in Telstra that the copper network won’t last the next 10 years without MASSIVE investment… and if you ask me, why invest in something so outdated.  We are in the 21st century, lets start acting like we are.

3.
If the projections are wrong, then they are wrong… and I do not have faith in this Government, or anyone for that matter to be able to forecast 10 years in advance.  The only thing I have to say is that this Govt at least are trying to see 10 - 30 years into Australias future and setting a path of worlds best practice.  To be honest, I don’t really care about the cost, the benefits will far outweigh any cost, so long as people utilise the technology to its best abilities.

You are right, this is a Util, and the Superfunds have purchased plenty of those, including some of the worst investments ever - Coal fired power stations, but hey that is life.  Lots of self respecting fund managers are throwing cash at these types of investment.  An IRR or 7% is not bad, especially when it is Govt Gauranteed.

@Ben C
The ATO are going paperless as we speak, and more and more accountants and lawyers are too.  The NBN will actually allow people and governments to finally take the digital bull by the horns and finally get on with going paperless, some 30+ years after the age of computer started.

If your firm are not using cloud computing yet, or software as a service, then you are simply spending oodles of money on unnecessary licensing and hardware that is going obselete as you put it on your desk.  The NBN puts some amazingly cheap and great software and devices at your fingertips at lightening fast speeds.

Ben C says:

10:25am | 23/12/10

@ CraigLambie

The only licencing fees we pay for software are for programs that are not available online - our tax return and compliance software in particular, that should never be run on a cloud server due to sensitive information (TFN’s in particular), and will never go obsolete. When MYOB and Quicken develop solutions that are affordable for our clients, then the NBN may be of some use.

Roja says:

12:08pm | 23/12/10

@CraigLambie - You might want to note that this entire site is riddled with liberal party cheerleaders who have way too much time on their hands.  If you want open minded discussion, you might want to pick another site. 

I’m with you on the benefits of this investment, look at South Korea for an excellent example of what it can do for a countries reputation. 

As for your medical scenarios - the entrenched in the past posters are looking at the worst case scenarios.  If a doctor sees 100 patients a week, where the NBN can be used to virtually see say 20 of them (medical certificates, extension of prescriptions, centrelink medical assessments, follow up discussions) the benefits are obvious.  My wife and Auntie both visit an encologist regularly as a precaution following cancer - they are discussing a pre-arranged scan that could be provided to the doctor electronically, the doctor at no stage physically examines either of them.  In my Aunts case that would save her a very tiring 900km round trip, which sounds pretty awesome to her in what is the last year of her life. 

Sure it’s not for every scenario, but it sure works for a lot of them.

@CraigLambie says:

09:20am | 24/12/10

Thanks for your support @Roja, you are right.
To many people with their heads stuck in the sand, can’t see the forest for the trees etc.

@Ben C - The NBN is being developed and installed over the next 10 years, I am sure by the time it is available to you and your clients you will have gone paperless, unless of course you plan to continue on in this antiquated methodology of using filing cabinets and paper to store information.
My accountant went completely paperless a long time ago btw.  The ATO allows a lot of information to be submitted electronically these days, in fact they have just had a huge system upgrade from what I hear (from my accountant) Maybe you should look into it, might save you some money (storage space, printing costs, admin staff to do the filing and retrieving of files etc)

notsurprised says:

01:02pm | 24/12/10

Reply to Roja. South Korea is hardly a comparison for Australia. The population there is 2.5 times larger than here and their landmass is 76 times smaller, making it one of the most densely populated countries on the planet. In such a scenario, the case for fiber is practical and financially viable. The scale of Australia’s landmass make a hardwired choice a massive risk requiring expensive ongoing maintenance. If it was such a winner of a business idea, shouldn’t we see a flood of investors coming forward?

@CraigLambie says:

06:48am | 25/12/10

@notsurprised I think you don’t seem to understand that the reason the Govt is fronting 75% of the cash is that we live in such a low dense populated country.  Otherwise we would have had private investors building networks like these 15 years ago, like they did in the USA.
In order for their to be equal coverage to All Australians, this has to be a Govt sponsored project.
When you get your head around the word equality, only then will you see the real benefits of this system. 
As a capitilist you must realise that sometimes the Market does not supply the best result for the consumers of society.  And most of the time it will not lead the country into a new frontier, which requires infrastructure investment.
Building Hospitals is not a good investment, building the road from Echuca to Mildura is not a good investment, in fact the ROI on this must be negative, but the Govt does it to ensure equality and access to our beautiful country.

Rich says:

08:17pm | 26/12/10

@Craig

- Health

Telehealth exists today. There is no need to wait for the NBN to deliver health services. Suggesting NBN is the only way to deliver these services is either naive or deceptive. This is precisely why a cost-benefit analysis should be performed - i.e to compare alternatives.

Source: NICTA

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/130277/NICTA-Telemedicine_Report_cr_-pdf.pdf

- Transport

While I have been able to work from outside the office for the last 10 years I would disagree with you that we should automatically not invest in public transport because of the NBN. Our cities are growing in population and public transport should remain a priority. In places like Sydney there are vast areas which are underserved and need additional investment today.

“We are over 10 years behind in Telecommunications investment in Australia.  The NBN should of happened back in the 90s.”

Wrong. In the latest 90s we were still struggling with the migration from 56K modems to ADSL. GPON hadn’t been invented (it was first published as a recommendation in 2003). Even in the late 90s the fastest core router could only handle 40Gbps throughput. Today a single core router can handle 4000 Gbps.

jb says:

06:49am | 22/12/10

Yes and no one I know uses their tv remote to it’s full potential after 30 odd years either so your point on computers would be?
Oh yeah thats right 95% of the country will be paying for a service that 5% of the country use.
You idiot!
Sorry you 5%er idiot!

Blazes says:

07:04am | 22/12/10

You haven’t addressed the main point of the article - that the NBN is not financially viable and not cost effective - any fair minded person would admit it.

Rosie says:

07:06am | 22/12/10

acotrel it doesn’t matter how hard you and the likes of you try and sell the NBN, some of us just won’t buy anything this stand for nothing Govt that cannot get or do anything right.

I repeat the problem here is Gillard and her team of wanna be politicians are so desperate to have their stamp on something and unfortunately for us it is the over priced NBN. The try hards so want this NBN not for the betterment of this country and its people but as proof that while in power have made a decision and have delivered. It would have been great if they weren’t using our hard earned $$$$$$$$. I and many many others will not benefit the slightest because we are very happy with what we have today and realize it will be updated with time.

Super D says:

07:08am | 22/12/10

I get it now.  How could a cost/benefit analysis possibly incorporate the benefit to society of being able to quickly share slide shows with commentary?

$36 billion is an awful lot to spend on entertainment (of dubious quality)

Besides which all things you’ve suggested don’t require an NBN - or for that matter even internet connectivity.

If you could respond with a link to a narrated slideshow detailing your arguments I’ll watch it.

majority says:

07:22am | 22/12/10

Nbn is going to teach people these skills? your point is an argument against nbn. nbn will mean the people you speak of will still not be able to do these things, just faster and more expensively.

TimB says:

07:30am | 22/12/10

So your argument is that people don’t use the technology we have now to its full potential…and your solution is to spend billions of dollars on more technology that they won’t use to its full potential.

You sir, are a genius.

Peetme says:

07:34am | 22/12/10

Acotrel, where did you get your information that the article appearing above is blatant scaremongering with political intent? Did you get it from You Tube?

Or maybe it came via You Tube from the Ministry of Truth at Labor HQ. It sounds like you are very familiar with this department

The unfortunate thing about a lot of the articles published on You Tube is that they are in general, a lot like your commentaries. They are utter crap, so why would anyone want to download them anyway?

MarK says:

07:34am | 22/12/10

Hush.

You talk of things you do not understand.

Why would anyone want to take a .flv and make a DVD of it? No one needs to burn to DVD these days Alan. Decompressing a flv will lose quality anyway. Waste of time.

The technology is readily available at Harvey Norman to allow you to either stream the content directly to the TV if you want or to easily and simply convert the .flv to .avi that most modern TV’s will play natively via USB port or most modern DVD players will play natively via cd or dvd disk even if they themselves have no USB port.

There is no need to convert it to a DVD movie format. Why you want to muck around with the codecs that are perfectly viable now is beyond me. Yes the tech is available at Harvey Norman now. You get a new TV and a USB flash drive. It is a male female connection - see the St Kilda football club for practical demonstrations.

Frank has rightly pointed out some of the glaring hairs on this business case.

The whole premise of the NBN being off budget is the assertion by Labor it can stand on its own as a business. Most banks would laugh at this business plan. If it is so viable why the need for public money at all? Just float it. Lets put it to the market test eh. The reson for this political gymnastics is that to pop the NBN on budget would ensure deficits going forward. Labor cannot political swallow that given their chest beating promises or surpluses to come.

You keep saying, along with others, that it will be a “quantum leap” forward. There is so much it will do.

The one and only concrete example put forward on The Punch by the fanbois has been the revelation that medical services/therapy will be delivered by the Wii gaming console.

Well booyah. The Labor party discovered on line gaming which a lot of us have been doing for over a decade anyway. That’s it.

Wow. All these huge, but totally awesome, unkowns.

Totally worth 50 hospitals.

NGS says:

07:53am | 22/12/10

And how important is it , really, to download a clip from You tube, or make a slide show. Im sure I have no interest in a slide show of your photos, and I dont need to waste these huge amount of dollars for your self aggrandisment. I mean, how valuable really is Microsoft Moviemaker, and why does it need to be superfast? You need to stop fiddling and join the real world, the one that lives outside!

Phil says:

08:02am | 22/12/10

acotrel.

Would you be happy for the ALP and its supporters to personally back this project beyond its business plan. In business thats what I have to do. If I screw up guess what I go broke. Therefore to make matters simple, The Australian Lying Party and its members could guarantee the project with their personal wealth/super or lack thereof if it does not do as they say in the report. Consequently I and probably every person who think the NBN is well on the way to being a white elephant, would be happy for them to take any profits beyond what they anticipate ie a 7% return on investment. If costs blow out they pay. If it comes in under budget delivering what they say they keep the cash. Perhaps those polititions pushing this could invest all their generous government super in the project privately. If it works great they get an awesome return on investment. If it fails, its on the dole for labor and its supporters.

Anyone can augue its great, just like the new Ferrari in the showroom looks great and probably drives well. But can I/we afford it. As Prof says above, what better could be done with that money?

Problem is acotrel, if labor served you up a shit sandwich and told you it was world saving chocolate you would swallow the lot.

Rocket Surgeon says:

08:25am | 22/12/10

@ Rosie, so you can’t see the wood for the trees? The NBN may be the greatest thing since sliced bread but because it’s being implemented by Labor you are automatically against it.

The rest of you comment is illogical. How can governments build infrastructure without spending your hard earned $$$? Yes, what you currently have will be upgraded over time, this is it. The current copper network needs replacement and this is the best way to do it. And you will benefit, you’re just too short sighted to understand how.

Elphaba says:

08:51am | 22/12/10

acotrel, watching you embarrass yourself day after day on here is some of the best entertainment the Internet has to offer.

Sadly for you, I don’t need super fast broadband to enjoy it.

jj says:

09:13am | 22/12/10

The argument isnt over whether better broadband will bring benefits, it is over how best to get the widest coverage and in a way that is affordable, with speeds that are capable of doing all things necessary. You dont need 100mb/ps to do video calls, or have fast download speeds; for most internet needs around 20mb will pretty well do you.

Ben says:

09:27am | 22/12/10

NBN is a financial disaster unfolding before our eyes. The Australian taxpayer has been tied up and is screaming, but gillard has dumb oakeshot so she can destroy a country without accountability.

Watching gillard is a bit like one of those scary old movies with the insane woman ironing and humming gently to herself and the camera pans down to show the cord is not plugged in.

Luke says:

09:30am | 22/12/10

Bt the time they’ve finished rolling it out we will have man on Mars.

The Badger says:

09:39am | 22/12/10

acotrel

Guess the overwhelming desire to support the party of NO has these commentators twisting and turning, firing in random directions in an attempt to shoot at that which they do not understand and can never see.
Take down this project and deny all Australians a level playing field in life and the all the benefits that will flow from the NBN seems to be the game plan.

Distract by mouthing ridiculous observations about porn, pirated media, internet filters and alternative solutions like wireless. These idiots would seek to confuse the masses with their bullshit and wrecking agenda.

Essential infrastructure that is the single most important project ever initiated in Australia -  a game changer for the nation, they attempt to discredit purely for political gain.

Sad bunch of wreckers really - and not very good at it either..

Never argue with a fool. Someone watching may not be able to tell the difference.

Dash says:

10:09am | 22/12/10

acotrel, the problem is, no one believes this ALP is capable of delivering anything but waste, lies and rorts. And you can’t blame people when they have had the world promised and nothing delivered!

This NBN will go the same way as grocery choice, fuelwatch, 200 childcare centres, root and branch tax reform, more affordable housing, cheaper better childcare, cheaper books for all Australians, the green loans fiasco, the insulation fiasco, the not negotiable profits tax, the school halls rip-offs, the 2020 summit, the commitment that no child shall live without a laptop, the East Timor Solution, the ETS, the returning of the budget to surplus, the Epping to Parrammatta railway, the promise of no carbon tax and Labor’s promise to honor all of their promises!

Time to wake up acotrel!

Badger - if the ALP had listened to NO, they wouldn’t have wasted $47billion on the second stimulus, would not have had to use $11billion in taxes to bribe it’s way back into government and many of the failures listed above may well not have happened! Oh and the ALP have been confusing the masses with bullshit for over three years now. What else would you call fuelwatch, grocery choice, more affordable housing, cheaper better childcare, root and branch tax reform, and the promise to build the Epping to Parra rail link? I’d call it - BULLSHIT!!!!

MarK says:

10:14am | 22/12/10

Hi Badger.

What home application need a gig of bandwidth.

Please provide me with a list of routers that I can purchase that will support the full gig potential of the NBN bandwidth. Preferably at Harvey Norman. I have one local and god knows I don’t want to use an insecure potentially dangerous and hackable wireless signal to buy stuff over the interwebz. God forbid. The NBN provides a real security boost doesn’t it?

Please also, since you have this tech stuff awesomely sorted, show us EXACTLY where in the NBN business case it guarantees a level playing field vis price for all customers dependent on location. This is now a very serious concern.

Can you give us the detail in the report that puts this to rest.

Thanks.

Jim says:

10:23am | 22/12/10

...again with the party of NO and the wrecker comments. Are you incapable of coming up with anything original Weasel??

Cudos though, for posting under the name Badger instead of Mr Mustela or sven gali…and cudos too for not just doing the Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V and change a few words thing.

Actually, whilever there is such a Party of Lies, Waste and Mismanagement in control, I’m glad there is a Party of No in opposition. Aren’t you?

The grand NBN scheme will take 10 years to roll out. By then it will be so outdated and we’ll be stuck with it, because it will take several decades to repay the debt your beloved Jooolya and Kevvie have put us all in, there will be no money left for anything we really need.

majority says:

10:36am | 22/12/10

ah yes, Alcotrel and The Badger. We just need Nosthow to complete the set. You gotta laugh.

Ben C says:

11:07am | 22/12/10

@ acotrel - Stop and think for a minute. Is the NBN going to improve people’s computer literacy just by being built? Is there anything in that list of yours that requires the NBN to work? Let’s count:

- Understanding the capabilities of a computer - NBN may help, but at the same time, Bill Gates made his fortune before broadband was widely available.
- Downloading videos from YouTube and making them into DVD’s - don’t think many people care. For those that do, the NBN isn’t going to be much difference, just makes the download faster. The DVD burning programs aren’t going to improve because of the NBN.
- Use Microsoft Movemaker - no Internet connection is required for that.
- Digital photo slideshows with commentary - see above re Moviemaker.

My point is, the NBN isn’t going to provide any exclusive benefits over what is currenlty available. If people want to learn how to use a computer to its full potential, the NBN isn’t going to be of any benefit - it’s only a novelty. The only parties that are going to benefit from the NBN are those in remote areas and businesses with high Internet usage. For the average home, most Internet traffic is from overseas based servers anyway, so the NBN isn’t going to improve anything.

The Dark Knight says:

02:52pm | 22/12/10

Maybe this needs to be examined a little closer to home!
 
  So the street leading into your home is cluttered with junk, shrubs, trees and all manner of obsticles. Same for your footpath and even into the front of the house. Your house has doors hanging from the hinge and electricity that operates intermittently. On top of ths, you have no room and no appliances to store your food. Just a pile of whatever in the corner.

    But somehow, you have acquired some money. So you decide that the best thing for this money would be to purchase the latest and greatest entetainment unit and computer system.

  Not a very bright idea yet this seems to be totally acceptable for an entire country.

Sven Gali says:

09:11am | 22/12/10

“In fact, the BER has been a gold standard stimulus program, delivering tens of thousands of jobs, when they were needed, building needed infrastructure, across a vast number of locations…”

Here, have a good read of the facts, Rosie.

And who knew they had billiard tables in hospital waiting rooms these days ? I’ll have to get crook sometime.

Jedi_T says:

10:07am | 22/12/10

@ Sven Gali
Your using an Opinion Piece to justify your argument against another Opinion Piece. Thats just stupid.
You join acotrel as one of the most foolishly entertaining people on here. If your going to link something, make it something factual!

Greg says:

10:49am | 22/12/10

Sven, fact is that state school principals could not choose their builders. In NSW they had to use builders hand picked by the state ALP. And those builders were found to have their noses in the taxpayer trough. There are numerous instances of over charging and under delivery under the scheme. That is a rort and a fraud on taxpayers regardless of how many jobs may have been created!

In addition, we had the situation in NSW where tha state ALP were accused of paying bribes to keep stories out of the media. And you don’t have a parliamentary inquiry into well run, squeeky clean schemes.

You can dress a dog up any way you like, but it’s still a dog!

Sven Gali says:

11:30am | 22/12/10

Couldn’t you find the link to the report, Jedi ?

Here it is for you then, since you obviously still need to be spoon fed >

http://www.deewr.gov.au/Department/Documents/P1_BERIT_First_Report.pdf

And speaking of stupid, here’s something else for you to read when you’ve finished the report >

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-You’re-and-Your

Daylight robbery says:

12:08pm | 22/12/10

@Greg “In NSW they had to use builders hand picked by the state ALP. And those builders were found to have their noses in the taxpayer trough. There are numerous instances of over charging and under delivery under the scheme.”

Interesting, a distribution of taxpayer funds to ALP building companies guised as a stimulus for building workers.  None of the builders complained.
We have more school buildings at the school across the road than in the 70s when the neighbourhood peaked in population.
All the playground area has diminished to a bitumen rectangle with a small grassed area.

Back to the NBN, we are being sold this as a 100 megabit speed connection when really many will be using 12 megabit connections at $70 retail.
Its taxpayers paying for business infrastructure at the end of the day.  The upload data is the big one for HD data to regional hospitals.  This could be done with satellite transmission both ways when you consider the issues you have with FOXTEL compared to what data problems you may have with your internet connection.
Thats a pretty poor case justify to justify the NBN.

Its going to be finished in 10 years though.  That’s a long long way away. 
Imagine if they had built the Sydney harbour bridge now?  Would it cost any less now with better technology?  NSW users are still paying for it though.

43 Billion might sound cheap in 10 years?

Are they still going to sell it off to a private media owner?

Jedi_T says:

12:15pm | 22/12/10

Sorry I didnt use correct grammar or spelling when asking you to link factual evidence.
I am also sorry that I did not be specific.
The link you supplied was a .gov site.
That means it was written by the Govt, the same Govt that introduced the BER failure.
It would be considered foolish that they would report there own failings.
But I did notice that they put in a few defects at the end to make it look legit & a section for complaints.
Please supply something that doesnt scream Govt, or Govt A** Kisser.
I think you’ll find that an independant assessment would have been less favourable.

Paul says:

12:33pm | 22/12/10

Sven, thanks for a link to a .gov.au website. This report is by the government for the government! The taskforce is headed by Brad Orgill a proven ALP yes man and socialist who was openly critical of the LNP before the ‘07 election. His previous review of the Foreign Affairs department fell over itself rushing to support Kevin Rudd. It would appear he has been given the task of producing a report to back up the Rudd/Gillard government no matter what. You just have to read the report’s executive summary to realise it’s a fraud!

The government appoints a committee, tells them what to say and then sells it as independent. No one in their right mind would buy that!

You’ll get a better idea of the BER rort-fest by simply Googling “BER rorts”. Or perhaps go and talk to the NSW principal offered a bribe by the state ALP to keep the schools complaint out of the media.

Oh and btw, what builder wouldn’t be stimulated by charging and receiving $750,000 for a $250,000 job?

Sven Gali says:

01:27pm | 22/12/10

I look forward to reading your independant (sic) assessments, Jedi and Paul.

James Milton says:

12:49am | 23/12/10

@Sven Gali

You’ve just been owned by those two posters, yet you remain defiant and believe in the BS govt reported you linked to. Man up and admit defeat!

Sven Gali says:

11:24am | 23/12/10

Exactly which parts of the report do you claim are “BS”, James ?

I look forward to your claims, along with their independant (sic), assessments, which I’m still waiting for. They’ve gone very quiet since they were asked to put up or shut up.

teldan says:

11:04am | 22/12/10

Have you actually tried using 3G in a crowded inner city area? Performance is often terrible because there are too many people trying to use the same service, and it’s not something you can fix with another base station either, it’s a fundamental problem of wireless technology.

I don’t understand your objection with putting cables underground. They don’t actually need to dig trenches anymore, they have burrowing machines that dig through the ground like worms pulling cable behind them. Thankfully someone wasn’t happy to stop innovating at picks and shovels.

Tom says:

12:30pm | 22/12/10

@teldan, people choose to use it in preference to fixed lines. The factors you raised are not sufficient to deter them. That’s all the proof that is needed.

The “objection with putting cables underground”? ... $43billion that would be more humanely and profitably spent on hospitals, education, roads and rail.

TimB says:

09:02am | 22/12/10

Tubesteak, all of those kind of projects are on the budget,.

Is the NBN? No. The goverment are treating it as a commercial enterprise which is why they wont put it on the budget books.

And if it’s a commercial enterprise, it needs a proper cost benefit analysis.

(That one’s for you too Seano, if you’re reading)

Markus says:

09:07am | 22/12/10

It’s all well and good providing vital infrastructure that won’t necessarily be financially viable, the issue is that is not what the Labor are saying.

If Labor’s entire sales pitch is based on the premise that it will be making a return within x years, then understandably people’s arguments against the NBN are also based on that very premise.

Andy says:

09:35am | 22/12/10

Roads are essential or the world would come to a halt, Schools are essential or no one would be educated, Hospitals are essential or we would all be sick or dead. Fast broadband???? ummmm?????? Silly comparison there Tubesteak, just like the Governments.

The Badger says:

09:53am | 22/12/10

Right on Tubesteak

You are wasting your time with theses political hacks
No is all they have. This project doesn’t need a cost benefit analysis, it just needs to be done, in the same manner as roads, schools and hospitals need to be built
All they have are distraction techniques and NO as their weapons.
They attempt to perpetuate this idea that the government is somehow responsible for the deaths that happened in the insulation scheme, but that argument ran out of steam a long time ago.
They attempt to perpetuate the myth their friends in the media started about rorts in the BER scheme. They have nothing but three word slogans. NO policies, no ideas and no hope of being elected.
 
They would deny all Australians the path to a better and fairer future through technological advances that can only be enabled through this technology.
Why? Because they are blind political animals.

Tubesteak says:

10:17am | 22/12/10

TimB - It will be on the budget when the expenses are incurred.

Markus - Labor’s sales pitch isn’t solely aimed at the commercial viability of it. They are saying they are building a vital piece of infrastructure that also happens to be commercially viable down the track.

Andy - the NBN will benefit the education and medical systems. Plus many other things. It’s not all about playing WoW much easier.

Meispod says:

11:38am | 22/12/10

@tubesteak and what about railways - they have never been financially viable.  Unfortunately we have let the accountants out of the back rooms and take over with only accounting metrics to guide them.  Accountants use simple tools and should keep away from national decisions, there is no column for nation building in the balance sheet and so completely out of their field of vision.

MarK says:

11:59am | 22/12/10

“Tubesteak says:

10:17am | 22/12/10

TimB - It will be on the budget when the expenses are incurred.”

No it will not.

It does not come onto the budget because it is “deemed a commercial venture”

All of the budget forecasts contain NOTHING to do with the NBN.

Please understand what the hell the thing is before making a comment.

That is one of the most basic reasons the whole thing stinks. If they could not justify this as a commercial venture with commercial rates charged then the whole thing collapses back to being a budget item.

What do you think the reaction would be if Labor came clean and said we will never give you a surplus for the next 20 years but you will have really good internetz?

That is the reality. That is why they are desperate to find a return above the government bond yield rate.

That is why there are so many heroic assumptions made in the business case - and I hasten to add probably why 260 pages was withheld due to “business sensitivity”. It is more like the info in those pages exposes some inherent reasons why it should be on budget.

So you got it Tebesteak?

It WILL NOT be on the budget bottom line while ever the charade of it being commercial can be maintained.

Get some facts and come back for a visit please.

TimB says:

12:14pm | 22/12/10

Tuybesteak, that’s not how a budget works.

When you create a budget you estimate how much something is going to cost or how much revenue it will generate in an upcoming future period.

Writing down the expense after the fact is not budgeting. That’s simply financial reporting.

Also big lol @ Badger calling others political hacks.

Tom says:

03:58pm | 22/12/10

@meispod, “Accountants use simple tools and should keep away from national decisions, ....” As in Greece and Ireland, eh?

No thanks, Meispod, I would prefer some accountants to run a crap detector over your pompous visionaries.

Jim says:

11:49am | 22/12/10

They already did Terry….remember the much publicised launch in a staunchly Labor part of Tasmania? Extrapolated out, the costs to cover the nation ran to hundreds of billions of dollars, and they had a very poor take-up rate, despite the fact that the media were there in droves and Gillard herself launched it (which usually cons extra people into taking it up, you know, be a part of history blah blah).

MarK says:

12:14pm | 22/12/10

The take up rate was around 10%. in Tasmania

They then changed the rules form an opt in system to an opt out system.

This was when all connection was free and trial plans were essentially nothing.

So 10% take up rate when given away.

70% in the business case - to make it barely viable.

10 is less than 70 right?

http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2010/10/22/249665_latest-news.html

marley says:

09:14am | 22/12/10

Excuse me.  “Cheap vote winning stunt”?  There’s nothing cheap about the NBN.

Catching up says:

10:11am | 22/12/10

Picture a family of five that operates as a democracy.  All members of this family have equal say when it comes to spending the money. This family has a hundred thousand windfalls to spend to on the family. This money is available after the normal household and family needs have been met. The mother decides that an extra bathroom is needed.  The present the kitchen and bathroom are in need of upgrading.  This according to her would lead to the betterment of all in the home.  It would make her job easier when cooking meals and cleaning. It would ease the pressure put on the present bathroom with five people using it. The eldest son believes that the kitchen and bathroom are OK and does not need changing.  He believes that the family would benefit from adding a games room and gym.  He believes this would improve the family’s health and encourage them to stay together.  The eldest girl foes not agree with her mother and brother, she thinks their ides are stupid.  What she would like is a granny flat added to the home.  This would allow her some independence. The family would benefit by having more room in the home for their own endeavours.  The baby of the family thinks a pool would be wonderful.  He thinks that he could learn to swim.  The family would benefit by having somewhere to cool down when it was hot.  He also thinks that when he has his mates over, they will have somewhere to play.  Now we come to father.  Father is of the belief that the money should be saved for a rainy day. He argues that having this money in savings would be a buffer if the family suffered misfortune. All the schemes are worthy but the need for each is in the eye of the beholder.  Nothing will be done in this family unless they drop their own scheme and line up with other members of the family.
  Do not governments face the same dilemma?  There is much can be spend the money on, but priorities have to be made. Yes, the NBNco money could be spent on more health, housing and education or other worthwhile endeavours. The question is would that be more beneficial than on NBNco. 
What I am attempting to say, the argument that the money should be spent on existing infrastructure is a little empty.  The money needs to be spent where the country will get the most benefit.  With all new long range, projects whether private of government there are always things that are not expected.  If we believe that unless we can guarantee that everything can be planned down to the last dot, nothing would be built.

Debbie says:

09:47am | 22/12/10

Jim says: @ 08:06am | 22/12/10

1. While we may have a super-duper fast system built at exravagent costs, most of our internet comes from either Asia or the US via old clunky undersea cables. What point is there in building something fast inside Australia if the lines feeding the place are maxxed out?

Jim ... you haven’t got a clue what you are talking about here. The undersea cables are nowhere near capacity ..

Jim says:

10:16am | 22/12/10

Not saying they are now Debbie….but the traffic through them will be the bottleneck.

Mr Mustela says:

10:34am | 22/12/10

I got this far and couldn’t get past this outright blatant lie.

“While we may have a super-duper fast system built at exravagent costs, most of our internet comes from either Asia or the US via old clunky undersea cables. What point is there in building something fast inside Australia if the lines feeding the place are maxxed out?”

Jim you are exposed for the fool you are.

Their is no bottleneck currently and capacity is increasing.

International bandwidth is currently around 6Tbps. By 2012 with the addition of a Nextgen 2.56Tbps Perth-Jakarta link and the Pacific Networks 5.12Tbps Sydney to Los Angeles link, Australia’s international internet bandwidth will more than double.

Why? To service increasing demand. Is it likely that more cable will be laid to cope with increase demand as more Australians come on-line with cheap dependable broadband? I’ll let you figure that one out on your next smoko.

You sound like Mark who bases his decision on the NBN based on what’s in stock at Harvey Norman. Weak as piss

MarK says:

12:06pm | 22/12/10

Got any answers to any of my questions yet Badger?

The Badger says:

12:36pm | 22/12/10

mark
You can write 1000 words, where 20 will do. You can link to numerous right wing newsites and denial groups that support your twisted views with twisted logic and lies but yet, you can’t find answers to the silly questions you pose?

Looks like you either aren’t capable of understanding anything not espoused by your opposition mates or are too dense to assimilate information for yourself.
I’ll go for the latter.

Jim says:

12:50pm | 22/12/10

Sorry Weasel, but you calling someone a fool is as funny as acotrels ramblings on random threads.

MarK says:

01:23pm | 22/12/10

So you have no answers foe me Badger.

You cannot refute my arguments.

All you have is ad homien attacks. And not very good ones.

Game set match. Anyone else want to play?

TimB says:

04:56pm | 22/12/10

Badger why does MarK have to answer his own questions?

You’re the one with the case to prove. You answer them. If you think they’re silly, maybe it’s because you lack the capacity to understand the issues.

NicoleG says:

05:39pm | 22/12/10

Ok Badger, lets see your 1000 words on why this NBN is so shit-hot-whiz-bang. Even 50 will do. All you ever do is throw mud at anyone who disagrees with it. You never offer an explanation as to why it’s sooooooo good, never. Lets have it. Maybe, just maybe, you’ll be taken seriously.

Syl says:

09:38am | 22/12/10

Actually HappyCynic, Wi-fi tops out at 300Mbps, but why quabble on numbers.
Wi-fi would never be used as a service based distribution method anyway as it is strictly a short-length technology (only used with a building for example),

There are new wireless technologies (such as 4G and WiiMaxx) that are showing amazing promise in regards to speed and reliability that are serious competitors to an amazingly expensive fibre solution.  Fibre backbone, sure, but to the home?
So many people seem to think that wireless ends with 3G and Wi-Fi and don’t go to the trouble to find out what is actually available.

I would like to see a cost/benefit comparison of the NBN vs a comparible wireless solution and a proper, considered decision being made.

I agree that Australia needs to be dragged into the 21st century, I just don’t think that latching on to the first idea, no matter what the cost, without a proper comparison to other solutions is the answer.  In fact it seems completely bloody ridiculous.

On a side note, the NBN is faster internet, nothing more, nothing less.  It isn’t going to suddenly allow people to stay at home, or not have to go to the doctors or create a black hole to another dimension where world peace exists.  It will allow you to download and stream media faster, and will allow more people to do so.  Lets not make it into some magical technology.

Expat says:

09:18am | 22/12/10

QED.

david d says:

10:05pm | 22/12/10

go back to watching today tonight.

MarK says:

10:03am | 22/12/10

It is not $37 billion.

That is the figure they allocated to capex.

They are calling the $13 billion cheque they write to Telstra to shut down its competing services and for access to the ducts etc opex.

Hence they can spin the project cost less than the $43 billion guess Rudd and Conroy came up with.

Stated capex $37 billion (rounded)
Stated (bullshit accounting trick) opex to Telstra $13 billion (rounded)

Total $50billion at best case scenarios before interest and the rest.

Michael says:

09:13am | 22/12/10

You are so right, Nick! What’s more, all that (and more) can be done now with our current ADSL connections. 24 hour video surveillance is possible with a dial-up connection. As for GP or specialists over the internet, that’s been going on for 10 years now… It would happen more, but it does not work very well.

If you throw your minds back to the late 90s, you might remeber this sort of talk. Everyone was saying exactly these sort of things about the internet back then too - just before the IT industry imploded and was crushed under the weight of the unmet expectations. All the money that was spent on internet systems led to 66% of IT job evaporating, and one of Australia’s biggest export industries (software) vanishing overnight.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it! (conroy, gillard, I’m looking at you!)

James Earlwood says:

09:34am | 22/12/10

@Michael

So Australia’s software industry evaporating had nothing to do with the cheaper cost of labour in places like India and the Philippines?

Michael says:

11:07am | 22/12/10

Sure, that had something to do with it too, but not until much later… The worldwide crash in 2000 was massive and it happened almost overnight. I was like an industry specific depression. The outsourcing to India really only started a few years after that when money started to return to IT.

@CraigLambie says:

09:14am | 22/12/10

Well said @Dave Sag

simon says:

09:15am | 22/12/10

Dave, your ramblings make you look desperately foolish. Of course there is no going back to dial up, what a deperate comment to make. No we should be moving towards 100mbit 4G LTE/WIMAX wireless for domestic use like the rest of the world. I like most people do not want so much money squandered on a plan that could achieve better results for much less money. Believe me mate, you are in the lunatic minority!!!!

MarK says:

09:18am | 22/12/10

Which are all on the budget and have a defined use.

Pop the NBN on the budget then.

If you really need to have the payback for having a modern defence force then you are beyond help.

Just a small note. The 6 collinc class subs we have now were tendered for $3.9 billion. An F22 Raptor you can get fly away (seriously that is a term apparently) for $150million each.

The total defence budget for 2010/11 is around $26.5 billion.

I will leave it to you to tell the service men and woman they are no longer required.

Michael says:

11:10am | 22/12/10

What the!? I don’t know what Afganistan has cost us, but I do know the NBN cost would replace every jet fighter we have and still have enough left over to buy a few new subs. Where the hell are you shopping for jet fighters?

marley says:

09:17am | 22/12/10

Your “handle,” sir is well-chosen.

What’s your point?  What argument do you have to make in favour of the NBN?

Daryl says:

09:53am | 22/12/10

That would be the pack who paid off over $90billion in ALP debt, provided 5 consecutive years of income tax reductions, surplus budgets, full employment and GDP growth higher than any nation in the western world !

Compare that to your pack of morons who delivered the insulation fiasco, allowed taxpayers money to be rorted by ALP backed builders under the school halls program, failed to deliver fuelwatch, failed to deliver grocery choice, failed to deliver root and branch tax reform, failed to deliver cheaper better childcare, failed to deliver more affordable housing, failed to deliver public ownership of hospitals by July 2009, failed to deliver the laptops in schools. And is still promising to build the Epping to Parrammatta railway (ha ha ha).

What an intelligent lot your ALP are. Lied about the carbon price and want to increase everyones electricity prices, drive up inflation and as a result, put further upwards pressure on interest rates. Lied about an East Timor solution which never existed! Burnt the $20billion surplus, racked up record levels of foreign debt and offered $11billion in bribes to be returned to government!

Any chance of getting Gillard and Swan back into their box? Let’s hope their stupidity, lies, waste and rorts have lost most everyone!

Jedi_T says:

12:05pm | 22/12/10

In your entire statement above, the only correct thing that is written is your name, Clueless Drivel. As it suggest you are clueless and you do drivel.

marley says:

09:20am | 22/12/10

Well, if the NBN is to be judged on the same lines as the police, the military, roads, etc then don’t pretend it’s a commercial project.  Put it into the budget as pure infrastructure costing.  But if you’re claiming its a viable commercial enterprise, then produce the figures that anyone asking for a bank loan to set up a business would have to do.  Because we the taxpayers are the lending institution.

Bobster says:

10:04am | 22/12/10

Agreed, but it was always unlikely as the ALP seems to be politically incompetent and/or still terrified of the ghost of John Howard.

It seems to be the one common thread running through all of their schemes.

That said, they’re wrong to approach it this way and everyone else is wrong to approach it that way.

Greg says:

10:25am | 22/12/10

Bullshit Bill! you need to get out more. I have been to Europe and the US over the last 12 months and we are no third world in terms of IT!

Stop buying the ALP’s lies. You probably still believe the ALP will build the Epping to Parramatta railway, that no child shall live in poverty, that the read my lips L.A.W. taxcuts will finally be delivered, that rollback still exists and root and branch tax reform will be real. Sorry but pigs might fly!

MarK says:

10:38am | 22/12/10

Yes.

All third world countries have what Australia has over a range of quality of life issues.

That is why we have no problem with economic refugees seeking a better life…..oh shit hang on a moment….

Shall we now address the way to fix your doozy of a problem might not be best served by spending $50 billion off budget?

Gregg says:

08:16pm | 25/12/10

It’s even BS about the boon to the country people too Robert for living in the country myself I have a very adequate satellite connection.
Surprise, surprise, where do you reckon the 7% that will not be covered by the NBN will be? - that’s right, in the country and still on satellite etc.
Conroy is just on a giagantic ego trip and Gillard would not have a clue, both completely irrational reasons and the logic behind stuffing the country further down the drain than they have.
The huge unanswered question for country people already with copper for IT or just phones is what is actually going to happen for their landline if the copper network is to be curtailed?
Or when push comes to shove will there still be copper in that part of Australia where the NBN does not go?
That will be the equality that the NBN supporters rave on about.

Robert S McCormick says:

11:29am | 22/12/10

Why are they persisting in refusing to conduct a “Cost Benefit Analysis”? We have already seen a cost blow-out on the whopping $43 billion. NBN have admitted that already so what will the whole thing ACTUALLY cost?
There must be easier & cheaper ways of getting Country Australia up to city-speed - a point the government keeps telling us is essential & one of the principle reasons for the NBN & no-one, not even Telstra & Optus combined, they would have us believe, are capable of doing. That, of course, is typical bullshit from a government full of it.

Jane says:

12:25pm | 22/12/10

Trouble is future generations won’t be using broadband as technology is changing at such a fast pace. By the time they finish rolling out the NBN it will be so 2010!

fairsfair says:

01:39pm | 22/12/10

you completely fail to mention the ongoing (direct) economic benefits of the coalition’s PPL scheme. Like allowing small business to remain competetive in the skilled job market. Also, it was costed in the budget. The NBN is external. Where is this money coming from? Noting it in the budget helps people put things in perspective when it can be compared to where other money is being spent. Can you honestly say $43b, that would by X. NO - we are so out of touch with what this figure means because we can’t comprehend just how much money it is. We know it is a lot, but given it is not a denomination we deal with on the daily we just see it as “a lot”.

It is the ongoing (direct) economic influence that is my problem with the NBN. We don’t know if it will be positive and we can’t accurately capsure its actual cost etc etc. This is why people have the right to ask questions about this entire scheme - the biggest of all being do we really need it?

So I am sorry, you can’t take people’s concerns about this network with a grain of salt. With comments like that, no wonder you guys are viewed to be uppity and snipey. The lovely Julia is the most condescending of all.

Jim says:

12:39pm | 22/12/10

ChrisV, you’ve said enough with “Twenty years ago nobody saw any need for an internet service at all”. You are of course correct. Technology has indeed come along in leaps and bounds in the last 20 years…even more so in the last 10.

Why then, support something so goddamn expensive, that will take 10 years to implement? In 10 years the rest of the world will have something far better, but we’ll be stuck with fibre optics, with no money at all left for anything else for the next 40 years.

MarK says:

11:22am | 22/12/10

So you are contending that the 7% IRR will be the MINIMUM return the project can expect.

Screenshotted and archived.

Will provide a few laughs in a few years time.

Wellcome to fairyland says:

03:02pm | 22/12/10

Why don’t you just tie in to the antenna mast that will be sitting outside your house in 10 years.
Hope the “waves” don’t fry you and make your children sterile.

Ryan says:

09:18pm | 22/12/10

Hasn’t yet and I have a 300mb wireless connection floating around at home, yes that’s 300mb, 3x faster than the promise of the pathetic joke they call the NBN.

Angry God says:

08:41pm | 22/12/10

Your harmful radiation is an Urban myth simply because the towers signals are at lower power than currently emmitted by the Sun. Also, by going to a wireless solution you increase the number of towers to reduce the issues that you have raised with coverage. More towers means lower power requirements on both ends and increased reliability. This eliminates your sticking points at the product offered by the NBN.

The fibre that is currently being strung up in the streets is vulnerable to the impact of Joe Moron loosing control of his vehicle. The damage will take a significant length of time to repair as fibre does not break like wire in a single location and it also does not stretch. Your general telstra tech could rejoin a failed copper cable in short order by the use of cable joiners, the fibre will be required to have a length replaced and the impacts are downstream from the break who will now loose, not only their internet but their telephone as the copper was decommisioned.

To build a network like this would be significantly cheaper and also quicker, giving more people access in a shorter time and able to provide the speeds specified by Mike Quigley in his interviews yesterday. Your last line is correct, but neither a wireless network or the NBN are currently built and so the discussion should continue before we create a network that will cost Australia a lot of money for neglible difference in stated performance.

The above wireless network would be backboned by fibre, this gives you the inter-network speed gains of the NBN, without having to connect every house. As the fibre is being run out to support this network, you could offer a premium service for commercial Australia, as well as to hospitals etc. But this does not need every house to be connected.

When given the stated performance levels of the NBN there is no logical case to require the physical connection of every house to the NBN. Wireless would be rolled out quicker, give comparable performance to the stated services, and would also enable people to be more mobile with their computers and associated devices.

Wireless will not meet the maximum exploitable speeds of fibre, but neither will the NBN, so why waste the $26 Billion difference between FTTH and an advanced wireless network.

simon says:

03:11pm | 22/12/10

The only problem David is that the number of fixed line internet users is dropping like flies. Everything will be wireless in the future, no question of that!!! Come on mate, get some vision!!!

Andy says:

02:30pm | 22/12/10

Spoken like a true Labor staffer.
Why are you so upset?
Actually mindless is a very good word. It describes more than adequately the ardent Labor supporter, in the face of mounting evidence of incompetence and waste by their beloved party of the Union hack, all they can do is proffer a preset routine of petty insults.
Keep up the good work, comrade!

MarK says:

02:52pm | 22/12/10

“The hysterical end of the word rhetoric…”

Gosh.

Wouldn’t it be awful for people to exaggerate and stuff.

Over the interwebz no less.

MarK says:

02:50pm | 22/12/10

We will not be silenced.

We will not go quietly into the night

Because today….

IS OUR COST BENEFIT DAY.

What estate are you in by the way and what exchange?

I can have a look and see what can be done with some real basic info. The Punch staff can email it to me if you want….exchange and housing estate is normally all that is needed.

You do have a copper telephone line at the moment I take it?

Syl says:

03:09pm | 22/12/10

Actually JulesG, we NEED a solution.  The NBN is NOT the only solution.  There are others that may be just as effective, more easily upgraded in the future and cheaper.  We NEED to compare all the available solutions and pick the best one for Australia.  Not jump on the first proposal put forward.

Sly says:

03:25pm | 22/12/10

I agree syl
Let’s connect a few tin cans with some string.
Back to the future with the coalition.
Forget about the bush and regional Australia, they’re just fly infested hicks, no need to give them equal opportunity.

Andy says:

03:27pm | 22/12/10

I’ll bet you live 18km WEST of Perth? Might explain the lack of cable.
Actually, speaking of kilometers, count all of the kilometers between Perth and the next major city. Not many European cities with those sorts of numbers separating them, and a major hurdle in any infrastructure project in AUS. Wireless broadband is capable of greater speeds than that you currently claim are available to you. What’s your carrier/plan?
What do you so desperately need 100 Mbs that you would be prepare to “pay anything” for, Jules?

The Badger says:

03:29pm | 22/12/10

mark
I think JulesG would rather have someone who technically knows what they are talking about than a political hack.

MarK says:

03:38pm | 22/12/10

Good on yah Badger. I really wish I could get a job in politics.

You seem to think I should.

So here is Badger, the opponent of “NO”, rubbishing me for attempting in good faith to help someone.

And you know I have no technical knowledge of ...what exactly? Instead of attempting to deride people that actually offer others assistance maybe you would care to offer some yourself.

If not hush. The grown ups are speaking.

Syl says:

04:07pm | 22/12/10

sly

Did I miss something?
You say you agree then go on some anti-coalition rant that is confusing as hell.  What point were you trying to make? (not being a smart ass, I honestly can’t decipher your post)

nosthow says:

07:03pm | 22/12/10

@The Badger - hang in there Badge against Dr No’s meagre army ! Looks like poor old Marky has had 40 cups of coffee today - love ya Marky ! Hope you saw my “Tony Awards ” elsewhere fella ? Merry Christmas - breaking out the old budgie smugglers ?

NicoleG says:

08:18pm | 22/12/10

Oh nosthow, just shut up ! That is all.

Peter says:

05:34pm | 22/12/10

Like copper? That stuck around for a while. Who knew copper would be carrying this very internet traffic that i am blogging with you now??

Fairyfloss says:

09:29pm | 22/12/10

Sure and the coalition will put transporters in your house so you can commute to work over the wireless.
Unless the weather acts up.
Not sure where you’d end up in a broken transmission event.

Give the wireless shit a rest. It isn’t the answer. Stick to bending bananas, at least they are easy to understand.

Alex says:

10:19am | 23/12/10

No, NBN Co have clearly stated that connecting the fibre to your house is free UNLESS you choose to opt-out. And given that you’re not forced to forfeit your copper connection, why would you reject the free hook-up to fibre?

grumpy old man says:

10:18am | 23/12/10

bad news for you Alex, data isn’t going to travel at the speed of light. If it did, we would not measure the speed of data in mbps…it would have too many digits, and you can’t type that fast anyway! The reality is that the speed of data transfer is limited to the speed of the slowest component in the process. And you don’t get 24/7 access on fibre unless you have developed some way to carry the fibre with you, and that will get very messy on the train!.
For the majority of people, all they want to do is a bit of surfing, pay the bills, check the bank balance, send the odd email, maybe download some music occasionally. I seriously doubt that the majority of the population want to “use the Internet: streaming devices, high quality video, online gaming, telecommunications and the constant and regular downloading of websites, audio, podcasts, music, software updates and so on - all at once - “.

I use wireless exclusively, and its just as fast and reliable as the adsl2+ that I cancelled, and its portable.