Impartiality is everything in journalism but at the risk of sounding slightly biased it’s fair to say that if the NSW Government were a dog you would take it down to the bottom of the yard and shoot it.

Romance blossoms among the tough-on-crime photo opportunity. Picture: Daniel Shaw.

Discussing the innate and irreversible badness of the NSW Government is about the most banal thing you can do these days. If anything this may be its most evil legacy – the cruelling of casual political discussion.

It’s like the inspired Gary Larson cartoon featuring nerds in hell - “Hot enough for ya?” – where remarking that NSW seems to be in political strife is as profound and insightful as noting that Germany has a bit of a chequered history, the Cuban economy could probably be doing better, or that Afghanistan has historically under-invested in infrastructure.

Rest assured that this column isn’t about the NSW Government. It’s about something the NSW Government has given us even more of an excuse to do. It’s about drinking to excess, which under the new draft guidelines means having more than two standard drinks at any given time.

It’s specifically about the ritualised moral panic - led by our increasingly puritanical police - being played out with renewed gusto each year as our top cops beat their chests about the allegedly out-of-control scourge of drunkenness, drunken violence, drunken injuries, drunken driving, drunken disco dancing, drunken everything.

And it starts with the most hysterical intervention anyone has made in the alcohol debate – former Police Minister Matt Brown, who served with distinction in the Rees Cabinet for an impressive 72 hours before being punted over just one little incident, which brings to mind the legendary joke about the Greek guy with a fondness for goats.

(There’s probably Mayan Indians living in the jungles of Guatemala who know the Matt Brown story by now but, for the record, Brown was removed from Cabinet last year after it emerged he’d got plastered at a party at State Parliament, stripped down to his green jocks, mounted the chest of fellow Illawarra MP Noreen Hay and shouted across the crowded room at her staffer daughter: “Look, I’m t..ty-f…ing your mother!” Admittedly he only did this once but it was still deemed sufficient to justify his removal from Cabinet.)

Despite this aberrant behavioural pedigree Matt Brown decided this past week to hurl himself into the debate over binge-drinking, holding a press conference in his capacity as the member for Kiama (while clothed, happily) where he enthusiastically backed calls from the local coppers and council for 24-hour drinking bans at the beachside town on Christmas Eve, New Year’s Eve, New Year’s Day and Australia Day, double the length of the existing 12-hour bans.

Here’s what undie-boy had to say:

“In most countries you can drink anywhere anytime and people drink responsibly, but in Australia too often people start drinking and they tend to go crazy. I hope society can move to a stage where prescriptive rules are not required, and that our culture gets away from behaving badly.”
Most of us share that hope, Matt.

But here’s the hysterical thing about NSW right now.

We’ve got a puritanical tee-total Police Commissioner who has written several opinion pieces now about the demon drink, and is now forming a lethal operational pincer movement with the backing of an ethically bereft government that has got no right to lecture any citizen about its moral behaviour.

Commissioner Scipione is a genuinely nice bloke but if he doesn’t want to drink that is his problem. It shouldn’t be mine, nor yours, if you are doing nothing wrong while under the influence. And “nothing wrong” should include being intoxicated in public – I doubt that many Australians could have made it home from the Christmas Party without being pinched if this 19th century edict was implemented to the letter of the law.
 
As for the role of our government in this crusade – it’s just unbelievable, breathless hypocrisy. For the past three years Macquarie Street has looked more like the Last Days of Rome than a functioning government yet here you have blokes such as Matt Brown who, having been flat out keeping his dacks on, thinks nothing of ruminating publicly about where the rest of us are going wrong.

So down in Kiama, because a few locals and blow-ins have been causing trouble on the drink, it’s now been decreed that everyone must suffer as a result.  There have been the usual reassurances from the police about how they will use their discretion in doling out fines for people who breach the ban, and that they won’t necessarily be fining adults who want to have a glass of white on a family picnic, that people will still be allowed to enjoy alcohol sensibly.

It’s an empty reassurance as all this ban does is effectively criminalise perfectly legitimate adult behaviour. It places anyone who wants to have a couple of quiet ones in the criminal sphere. If you are sitting in a park with your kids and with other adult friends, it is an absolute impertinence in this supposedly open society of ours for the cops to even be able to come over and initiate a casual conversation with you, to gauge whether (in their totally untrained and subjective view) you are on the wrong side of tipsy.

If you’re a young person, sitting around with some friends sharing a couple of six packs, forget about it, because you will be an absolute magnet for police attention whether you are actually doing anything wrong or not.

I always thought it was the job of the police to capture bad guys. A few little things have happened in Sydney this year, like bikies being bashed to death in broad daylight at the Sydney Airport in front of hundreds of stunned families, or Michael McGurk being shot dead execution style in his driveway in front of his son – no leads on that one, apparently, but as long as we’re tackling the evil that is the chardonnay-fuelled park picnic, we can all sleep safely at night.

This weekend saw the absurd theatre whereby under a joint trans-Tasman operation police in every big city did two things.

They arrested a bunch of drunken, violent hooligans who should be arrested as a matter of course anyway.

And they harassed a whole bunch of innocent young people who were having a great time.

A special Christmas shout-out to the young couple in that photo in the Telegraph on Monday who, having been hand-cuffed and lined up with other drunks along a building wall, still found their way to pash each other silly. It was for me the only reassuring moment in this absurd jack-booted exercise.

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58 comments

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    • Eric says:

      06:08am | 16/12/09

      “Impartiality is everything in journalism”. I laughed out loud at that one.

    • Wayne Hutchins says:

      06:31am | 16/12/09

      “Impartiality is everything in journalism” Took me a bit to recover from that one Penbo… Is that why the debate here on the ETS is such a one sided affair? It seems to me that the views of the few are all we get here but I guess that is another subject. It is unfortunately not only the consumption of grog that they wish to control. It is every part of our lives. We are so over governed in everything we do. You almost need a permit to pee lately. But you got me thinking! Who in politics would I look up to?

    • Jaz says:

      06:32am | 16/12/09

      David, is there a link between extended drinking hours, poker machines, state taxes and political contributions…hmm…lets think about that…my “belief” is that the police are actually trying to send a message to the government…they cannot confront them publicly on fixing the cause so they have to deal publicly with the symptoms, hoping that the punters start asking when this problem actually started. Having listened to the drivell on talk back radio about needing a cultural change needed it became apparent that the problem did not exist to this exist before Bob car allowed casinos in every suburb to pay for the ever increasing size of the NSW government.
      The answer is simple…reduce government spending…remove the dependency on sin taxes…stop the poker machines and the alcohol that they float on…maybe then the police can go back to catching actual bad guys rather then their hapless victims.

    • Old Clive says:

      07:23am | 16/12/09

      Sounds like a breath of fresh air to me. May be Rudd should show a bit of his manliness and take on some of his stuffy looking bimbos. That would certainly improve the farce that is called Questions without notice.

    • Diamantina Dick says:

      08:14am | 16/12/09

      One should contemplate the lack of statesmanship in politics in Australian, NSW in particular and consider why that may be. The media has turned politics, particularly in NSW into a game of Trivial Persuit. The result of that is a focus on the minute, depreciation of the important and avoidance of the obvious.

      At the last election this State elected a leader with “more to do” and the lack of courage to put his party logo on election posters.

      People are at present reaping what they have sown, pure and simple.

    • Andrew Goff says:

      08:23am | 16/12/09

      Hysterical, puritanical, nanny state bulldust.

      An estimated 200,000 people went out in Melbourne last weekend (it’s probably even a lot more than this as it is Christmas time, but I’m citing figures from a few months ago). In “the bigegst Police Blitz on drunken behaviour ever” they arrested 200 people. That is 0.1% of people who went out… and that includes people who were simply drunk, not doing anything criminal (not even throwing up).

      For the record, that is one arrest for every 7 Police.

      If you want to stop drunken crime, send the criminals to jail (don’t just “ban” them for 48 hours… what a JOKE). Don’t push an extreme, ideolodical and puritanical righteousness onto the vast majority of the rest of us.

    • grumpy old man says:

      08:37am | 16/12/09

      Let me get this straight. You want the Rum Corps to do something about the grog problem.
      In a bull pen, you want your friends with the rakes to be impartial about which lumpy bits they spread onto the garden and:
      You want the rubbish that caused all the problems in the first place, (the one percenters who convinced Governor Bligh/Keneally/Fat Barry, that pandering to the minority at the expense of the majority e.g. give drugs to drug addicts and let them do what they want, drive, go to work, continuer to steal and feed their habit,  but lock up drink drivers or take money away from hospitals for preventative health so that for the last twenty years we have not been able to get a bed or a bandaid in a public hospital; and all our health “poor” performance markers have gone thru the roof, in spite of all the “womens health centres”), and you can stick your morals and ethics up your politically correct.

    • Liz says:

      08:40am | 16/12/09

      Take them out and shoot them,reckon they’re making a good job of it themselves.
      Impartiality in journalism..same.Standards have steadily been slipping towards the banal,the biased and the boring for some time now.Pay for news? Never, it’s rubbish mostly.

    • Stephen Pickells says:

      09:15am | 16/12/09

      It’s quite clear in the photograph that the pashing couple are not handcuffed.

    • zoe says:

      09:16am | 16/12/09

      Having been at a hospital emergency department a number of times recently with my young son who has had pneumonia I was absolutely shocked at the people that were there because of alcohol, I had no idea it was that bad.  The message is not getting through to people and something needs to be done.  I don’t know if this is the answer, but maybe it would prevent them clogging up emergency departments

    • rob says:

      09:17am | 16/12/09

      David you are absolutely right.

    • H of SA says:

      09:47am | 16/12/09

      My Sympathy for the “right to drink” argument went out the door with the first Paramedic assaulted for trying to help.

      If you can’t be responsible enough to not disgrace yourself, then someone else has to take responsibility for you. What’s more the money spent on the drunks by cops, hospitals, road accidents, family support services is astronomically high. Ever wondered why your kids school isn’t as good as you’d think your tax dollars could make it? Its because a hefty chunk of your tax money was spent in an Emergency Department keeping some drunk from dying.

      Sympathy for the right of drunks to keep ruining their and everyone else’s life is at an all time low . No-one has the rgiht to trample the rights of others

    • Louis McLennan says:

      10:01am | 16/12/09

      Ah well, get what ya vote for. Just unfortunate that the rest of us have to live like this because of the dummies right David?

      I don’t drink often. However, I’d like to actually drink when I do! I can see the frustration here, then again I’m not a socialist so I’m frustrated with almost every new law.

      I see your first sentence is in response(bait) to Paul Colgan’s article yesterday. When I read it I thought “what a smart ass”.

    • Ian F says:

      10:03am | 16/12/09

      Amazing that I keep seeing opinion polls suggesting that more than a quarter of NSW voters would vote to re-elect the Obeid / Tripodi Government.

    • bella starkey says:

      10:06am | 16/12/09

      OH MY GOD! Young people getting drunk! Rich people taking cocaine! Teenagers spraying trains! OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

      I love a good moral panic, dont you?


      (i also love that photo!)

    • fitter says:

      10:16am | 16/12/09

      Penbo, did you say impartiality is everything in journalism? I take it that was said with tongue planted firmly in cheek!

    • James says:

      10:26am | 16/12/09

      Does that make you an anarchist, Louis McLennan?  Or perhaps an anarcho-syndicalist?

    • Andrew Goff says:

      10:34am | 16/12/09

      @Zoe: “I don’t know if this is the answer, but maybe it would prevent them clogging up emergency departments”

      You’re right, you don’t know if it is the answer and banning it probably will prevent “them” clogging up emergency departments. It won’t fix the problem at all, but it will stop people showing up to Emergency departments.

      @Ian F:
      That is amazing. Who are these people? Surely there can’t be that many corrupt party officials and developers in New South Wales?

    • Chris says:

      10:35am | 16/12/09

      “but as long as we’re tackling the evil that is the chardonnay-fuelled park picnic, we can all sleep safely at night.”
      GOLD! Chardonnay fulled park picnic. Im lovin that one…

    • Jack says:

      10:38am | 16/12/09

      H of SA, how many people drink, and how many have ‘assaulted paramedics’?

      Maybe instead of trying to make alcohol illegal, we should make assault illegal? Bold, I know.

      Go back to hiding under your bed with your photo of John Howard.

    • Lucas says:

      10:42am | 16/12/09

      “In most countries you can drink anywhere anytime and people drink responsibly, but in Australia too often people start drinking and they tend to go crazy.”

      The elephant in the room is the question WHY are people going crazy after a few drinks.  Until you answer that question with any level of certainty, you cannot begin to formulate an effective response.

    • Richard says:

      10:57am | 16/12/09

      The Nanny State becomes more powerful with every week of this rotten Labor Govt. The idea that bureaucrats and politicians know best is laughable. It’s about time individual responsibility and enforcement of the law became the focus instead of the hysterical fear mongering we see on the news. For this lot, its a great distraction from creaking hospitals, overcrowded trains and a revolving door at the top.

    • Drewboy says:

      11:07am | 16/12/09

      Impartiality is everything in Journalism?? Well that is a funny for a Wednesday.

      If there was impartiality Rudd would never have won the last election.

      But getting back on topic. Penbo have a walk down George Street on a Friday or Saturday night and you will see that the heavy hand of the law is required is required.

      Even though this was a dog and pony show exercise it would be nice to see the police reclaim the street and little more often as apposed to letting the PC police run the place!

    • Carl Palmer says:

      11:07am | 16/12/09

      Penbo, were you on the p-ss when you put this together? Were you on the weed? Are you serious? Every morning I wake up and on the news there is a fight here and a glassing there. Bus stops and property are vandalised and people threatened. It annoys me - no it angers me when I hear that we need more money for our hospitals. When will the media do some homework and report on the **unnecessary** visits to the hospitals of these buffoons. The same buffoons that *waste health care funds* who takes someone else’s place – the elderly, someone who is *genuinely* in need of assistance, where ambulance drivers have their equipment – funded by you and me stolen.

      For mine – ZERO TOLLERANCE and if there is some friendly fire along the way then so be it. The media isn’t doing something about it just whinging, parents ain’t and these clowns are let loose on our streets. There will always be a cop or two that will be heavy handed and go over the top, I’d rather that than take a softly softly approach. If someone wants to confront the police and hurl violent and threatening language then my expectation is for the police to take firm and decisive action. Fight fire with fire - period. There is an appropriate way to behave and this is not acceptable.


      I don’t go out every night or every weekend, but from what I’ve hear from the kids (they are in their 20’s), the police in our area are in the main reasonable and sensible.  I know of a couple of incidents where a group of kids were drinking and parting on the front lawn of their unit which so happened to be just across from the beach. The police came around and asked them to turn the noise down and be quiet since it was late. The kids didn’t yell abuse or tell the cops where to go they did what was asked of them - they turned it down and everyone including the police was happy. Had the opposite occurred – then zero tolerance.

      As for the government, they probably didn’t know the blitz was on, we all know how impressive the NSW government is in administering and running our state.

    • Bacon & Eggs says:

      11:07am | 16/12/09

      ‘Mounting’ Noreen Hay??? Matt Brown should have been sacked for extremely poor taste!

    • Jack says:

      11:11am | 16/12/09

      Lucas, the *real* elephant in the room isn’t ‘why are people going crazy after a few drinks?’, it is ‘are people actually going crazty after a few drinks, or is it just a beatup by sensationalist media outlets, supported by a police commissioner itching for more power and funding?’

      Not once have they ever been able to back up this ‘zomg the sky is falling! crime is out of control!’... mainly because every source of crime stats shows both normal and violent crime falling, not rising.

    • T.Chong says:

      11:14am | 16/12/09

      All commentators: if you think this is bad now, wait for the Lore’n'order
      auction to start as the state election approaches.
      The Libs will match and better every crackdown proposal Labor has.

    • Vicki PS says:

      11:14am | 16/12/09

      “I always thought it was the job of the police to capture bad guys.”  That saw is a favourite line with citizens who think that laws only apply to criminals, usually just after they’ve been caught doing something objectionable for which they have no excuse e.g. speeding.  Speaking of moral lectures, “nothing wrong” with being drunk in public rather begs the question, doesn’t it?

    • Tom says:

      11:15am | 16/12/09

      H of SA, I go out reasonably often and drink to what many would consider to be excess, but like most people, I have never gotten in a fight, never stolen anything, never been arrested, always got home safely whilst drunk etc. As stated in the article, the number of people actually causing trouble relative to the number of people going out is minuscule, hence why it makes no sense to punish the majority for the sins of a few.

    • Adam says:

      11:41am | 16/12/09

      Right on Penbo. Let’s get rid of these clowns in every state and territory that they infest—and end the Aussie fascination with intervening in each other’s lives.

    • Louis McLennan says:

      12:06pm | 16/12/09

      James, it would appear many new laws (disguised as protecting the people) hinders freedom and does not do much for the people in the end. This is not always the case. However, when it comes to pub lock-outs or alcohol in general new laws either fuel violence or do nothing to curve it.

    • Albert Hammond says:

      12:12pm | 16/12/09

      But Penbo, you’ve been waging your own war against chardonnay drinkers for yonks now.

    • AdamC says:

      12:26pm | 16/12/09

      Good article, Penbo, I am increasingly sceptical about the whole binge-drinking-linked-violence premise. How drunk are these thugs when they commit acts of violence? While they have, no doubt, had a few in most cases, would they be sufficiently staggering-around drunk to be arrested in a police round-up of drunks? Surely, it would be hard to bash someone effectively when you can’t even walk in a straight line.

      I suspect alcohol is simply an easy scapegoat for violent street crime, rather than a bona fide cause of it.

      PS, this libertarian, larrikin stance of yours is a bit selective, Penbo. Just a day or two ago you were apoplectic with moral panic about that silly Yaris ad!

    • James says:

      12:30pm | 16/12/09

      Sorry Louis mate - missed the “new” in your original post.  Thought you meant laws more generally.

    • Boris says:

      12:31pm | 16/12/09

      Christ, I think that might be my little sister smooching her BF in that photo!

    • Andrew Goff says:

      01:05pm | 16/12/09

      Carl Palmer wrote:
      Are you serious? Every morning I wake up and on the news there is a fight here and a glassing there. Bus stops and property are vandalised and people threatened.
      AND
      The police came around and asked them to turn the noise down and be quiet since it was late. The kids didn’t yell abuse or tell the cops where to go they did what was asked of them - they turned it down and everyone including the police was happy.

      a) People get in fights? On a daily basis? Oh my! Quick call the government.
      b) Bus stops are vandalised? Oh my! Quick call the government.
      c) Kids comply with police requests? Oh my! Quick call the government.

      The whole point is wrapped up in (c). 99.9% of the time there simply is no problem. If someone glasses someone else then send them to jail. But DO NOT pretend this is an epidemic, do not stuff up the 99.9% of people who do not behave in any way offensively when drunk.

      How about Police focus on the hoons who DO assault people, not try and change the laws to stop the rest of us having a good time based on the ranting of the insane teatotalling empire builder they put in charge of police?

      As for the media? They love it since the pictures are great and sell papers, but violent crime in absolute terms is down since 2000, and as a percentage of the population has never been lower since records were kept. Never let the facts stand in the way of a saleable story.

    • H of SA says:

      01:23pm | 16/12/09

      Hey Tom, its refreshing to hear a counter argument which is actually sensible! A few points of clarity to what I said before though may help.

      I don’t believe in punishing the majority - and neither do the police - I highly doubt these claims of arresting people for being drunk-that would be illegal, its “drunk and disorderly” or public nuiscance - there is no crime for being drunk. I’m guessing those that say “I was arrested for being drunk” are leaving out the part about pissing on somebodys car, continually feeling up some girl who already told them where to go ect.

      Also Tom, I too like you currently do - used to drink too much and the only immediate consequence were that I made far too many bad jokes - though some advice from a former Nurse about how he could see from looking at my eyes I had damaged my health through drinking was a bit of a wake up to my thinking about my “safe drinking”.

      Anyway, you can drink and not assault anyone - good. But there are many who can’t. In every pub/bar/club there is always at least one dunce. He probably thought he could drink without problems in the past, this is the 100th time he has gotten pissed, surely it will end the same as the last 99. But tonight maybe he is grumpy about the day he had, maybe the last few months haven’t been great, suddenly it gets to him and he is feeling angry some guy bumps his and suddenly - its on. Not too many people plan to go out and become pissed idiots, it just happens. When they are sitting in the cell or the ED they will regret it - they didn’t head out at 7:00 that night planning to be there…but there they are.

      So yeah if arresting people the instant they start acting like nobs and runing everyone else’s good time prevents assault - well much better the perp is charges with public nuisnce and the victim only has to put up with the guys lip than the alternative which is let the guy keeping getting away is bad drunken behavior to the point he is charged with assault and the victim is in hospital.

    • 6clegs says:

      01:34pm | 16/12/09

      Re “elephants in rooms’‘; Why are people going out with their priority to get drunk, in the first place? (every weekend, not a ‘one-off-thing’) Thats what I just don’t get.

      AND… am I the only person to see that there is a *very young* black person also lined up against the wall? WTH is with that???
      Considering the low number of black people in this country it seems to me that the police still target non whites…
      Gawd, if YOU, DP think it’s tough being a Chardy drinking white fella,  imagine - if it’s possible, & just for a mo- what it must be like for people with permanent sun tans!? (I’m caucasian BTW)

      I’m not in NSW, but just going from how ‘Right’ the liberal party has become Oz wide, anyone who thinks that things wouldn’t get even more ‘‘moral’’ under them? has rocks in their head.

    • Jack says:

      01:39pm | 16/12/09

      H of SA, did you even read the story you quote as ‘evidence’ ? Despite the journo’s best attempts at whipping up a ‘alcohol violence epidemic’ story, it is pretty obvious that a) they dont have enough staff for the ambulances and b) the ones they do have are unhappy about their pay structure.

      But, by all means, use an isolated example as a reason to restrict the freedom of the other 11m of us that dont assault medical officers.

    • AT says:

      02:04pm | 16/12/09

      I too, would like to extend my compliments to the pashing couple. In fact, what’s missing from The Punch is an awards program. Perhaps such a facility could be established?

      In the “deadset legend” category, the pashing couple would obviously be finalists and I should wish to nominate the motoring couple illegally crossing the Sydney Harbour Bridge, as well. It was on the night the bridge was closed for the installation of grass on the road for a stupid picnic the next morning. An otherwise stupid act was not only redeemed but elevated to legendary status when the driver yelled out to the workers; “keep up the good work”, while police were in hot pursuit.

      In the “what a deadshit” category my nomination would be the copper who felt compelled to inform the media that protests like Greenpeace unfurling a banner on a sail of the Opera House made him “angry”. Here was a senior copper, in his uniform, sanctimoniously and somewhat unprofessionally allowing his personal emotions to interfere with his professional duty and publicly declare his anger at the heinous crime of… trespassing.

      With attitudes like that freely and unselfconsciously expressed as if it’s perfectly normal, it’s little wonder Scipione’s crusaders can rampage through town and country and not be subjected to the sort of scrutiny they deserve.

    • Jack says:

      02:45pm | 16/12/09

      Wow, so now you are quoting

      a) the union trying to bargain for higher pay for its members, who fought to have assault on ambulance officers to be a more serious crime than against you or me, and who base their ‘statistics’ off a survey of its members. Seems like an unbiased, reliable source of information.

      b) An article which talks about assault in general, nothing to do with alcohol - apart from anecdotal evidence from this one guy.

      c) a broken page from the DoH, cant wait for that one

      d) a report from a rural newspaper about a roundtable of an association funded by an anti-drug and antialcohol ‘community group’.

      How about some quotes from the Roadrunner asserting that the Coyote is, in fact, a jerk? Or maybe some statistics from real estate agents telling us that property is ‘completely awesome’. Do you lack the ability for critical thinking?

      You state that ‘sympathy for the right to drink went out the door when the first paramedic was assaulted’. Yet such an incidence is exceedingly rare, and there are existing laws to deal with it.

      Then you go on to claim ‘statistical evidence’ even when, as many people have stated, by every reliable metric, crime in both absolute and relative terms is decreasing, and has been for two decades now.

      This is a pretty easy game, when you disentangle yourself from the vested interests, political rhetoric and media sensationalism. There is no massive alcohol (or crime) epidemic sweeping Australia. There arent ‘rivers of blood washing down our city streets every weekend’ (thanks, Tele!). There are a couple of dickheads who get in fights, just like there always have been. Then add a healthy dash of a Salvation Army commissioner who wants to pump up his budget, and newspapers who want to hype a non-story to sell a few copies.

      The answer isnt anything to do with ‘the right to drink’. It isnt new laws. It isnt a bunch of overzealous cops hassling random people walking home from a Christmas party. It is to catch people who assault others, and utilise the judicial process. You know, the job that the police are actually paid for.

      And as for your ‘AD HOMINEM INTERNET ATTACK’ - sorry. I just jumped to the conclusion that anyone who seriously thinks that there is some kind of epidemic of alcohol fuelled mayhem sweeping our streets is living in a bubble. You know, the type that wish Tony and John would take us back to the 1950s. Sorry if I wasnt familiar enough with your thepunch posting history to know better.

    • Ben says:

      02:54pm | 16/12/09

      Hey Carl Palmer, why don’t we just get the Gestapo in? Or better yet just execute people on the spot for looking like they might do something wrong. That’ll help you sleep at night I guess. I can’t wait til me generation takes over, the aged care you lot will be in will be nicely rundown by the time you get there. Enjoy your Kerosene baths as payback for trying to ban absolutely everything that could be considered remotely enjoyable. Go back to church.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      03:03pm | 16/12/09

      @ Andrew Goff says: 01:05pm | 16/12/09
      Take a tablet - I never suggested that there was an epidemic – YOU did.  Re-read my post – no don’t worry you missed it the first time second won’t make any difference. 

      As for a) b) & c) – get it right it’s the police you call. Call “the Government”??? Huh?
      As for “…insane teatotalling empire builder they put in charge of police?” – now that’s a very impressive contribution. I would encourage the commissioner to do it again and again and compared to past commissioners he is doing just fine. I’ve never met him but he seems reasonable to me and someone who is genuinely concerned.
      Clearly you have not had any direct experience working in an ED nor running a hospital, but I’d bet you’d be the first to whinge and complain about the waiting queues and that more money should be thrown at the “problem”. Dealing with the cause rather than the symptom might be a really good start.

    • Andrew Goff says:

      03:24pm | 16/12/09

      H, you are arguing fairly which is better than some of the warriors on here… but I’d suggest that you are actually quite wrong about who causes alcohol related violence. It isn’t the guy who has gone out 99 times before and never been in a fight… it is the guy who picks on him.

      People do dumb things when they are drunk, but to suggest anyone suddenly decides it is a good idea to glass someone is not reflective or reality. People do indeed go out planning to have a fight! I’ve known some (though, of course, didn’t “tag along” for that bellyful of laughs).

    • H of SA says:

      03:33pm | 16/12/09

      Jack, apology accepted. for the broken DOH report google, alcohol + cost to Australia, 2nd link down. Maybe the alternative path of access will do the trick.

      The buble I live in, or not so much live in but work in in service to victims of child abuse - as you can imagine alcohol is one of our proven risk factors for most kinds of abuse, from research (our own and international). I have additionally some past work history of alcohol and crime links.

      Yes crime is dropping, incuding assualt - however the seriousness of crimes is on the increase. Where as a few years ago people had fisticuffs with only the occassional David Hooks type incident - these days glassings are on the increase-which of course is more damaging. No one is suggesting the rivers are running with blood (as far as I know - there can be some zany hyperbole out there) but several govt departments and NGO’s and comissioned research by private companies put the annual cost of alcohol abuse into the billions. When multiple sources tell me the same thing I see in my work, when I’m out and when I attend emergency depts I’m inclined to agree - critical thinking doesn’t automatically mean investigating the claims and finding the false. It means investigating and searching for fault - my own conclusion on the balance of evidence is that yup the cost is massive.

      I am not trying to stop people drink, even if I wanted to I have no idea where you would get the money to police that, i am advocating discipline on anyone who costs the community by their drunkeness. That means i support more arrests for public nuisance. If you can sit at a bar get utterly pissed and not cause trouble then I’m not bothered. If you break the law and cause damage to others I advocate discipline. Its an opinion formed by working in a context of very traumatised people where alcohol was a major factor in theri trauma.

    • H of SA says:

      03:44pm | 16/12/09

      Hey Andrew Goff,

      Sure the causes of alcohol related violence are often the pre-meditated people for whom fights are weekend routine they planned - but there is also a large number who I suspect would avoid the trouble if they were sober. I’m not saying everyone who is drunk commits crime - of course not most people don’t - but some do who otherwise might have the inhibition control not to when sober just don’t when drunk and/or get themselves into bad situations (such as not staying calm when being picked on verbally and smaking the guy). The costs of these things to society and the ongoing costs are huge - think of all the extra hospital, ambulance, SES, pyshocological services and child protection resources would be freed if there was more policing of alcohol offenders (not just people who drink, people who drink to the extent it harms others).

    • Tom says:

      04:10pm | 16/12/09

      H of SA,  vandalism, assault, theft, public urination etc. are all illegal as is. The laws are perfectly sufficient, it is just a matter of enforcement. Certainly I, and any rational person I’m sure, would have no problem with people being charged when they are caught committing such offences. But past experience shows that heavy handed law enforcement - i.e. the war on drugs, is rarely effective, as ultimately there are many idiots out there who will cause trouble regardless of any regulation.

      And your linking of poor schools and hospitals to drunks is tenuous at best. There are plenty of things that cost the community a lot of money - drunks, drug abusers, smokers, fat people, people with a genetic predisposition to certain diseases, car drivers, old people…need I go on?

    • Sean says:

      04:26pm | 16/12/09

      Keep your head in the sand if you want to.

      I’m not for decrying anyone the right to have a drink responsibly, but if you think for a second the crisis is non existent then I wonder if you actually have been out on the streets or been to any of these towns recently (have you Mr Penberthy?) Simply put, the police are trying to keep places safe for those of us who are simply trying to have a good time and be safe from those who abuse alcohol by choice.

      And the statistics are pretty clear and conclusive concerning assault and crime. Go and sit in the Downing Street Centre on any given day and see how many assaults are due to drinking reprehensibly. Then you will completely understand why the Commissioner is standing up to it. And besides, if this drunken and disorderly behaviour is deemed acceptable in public then it will be seen to acceptable at home. Any police officer will tell you, alcohol and drugs not only cause the majority of violence on the street but in the home as well. If we stand up to the public behaviour it may well supplement movements and platitudes such as white ribbon day. But I suppose Mr Penberthy you were too busy having a beer down the coast to notice the bipartisan recognition of violence against women, of which alcohol is a major contributing factor… ???

      As for Police (show them respect of not calling them cops at least) coming over to see how you are going in public, I have no objection to responsible policing interacting with the general public, enforcing what is perfectly reasonable in the circumstances. I think a lot of people would welcome Police on the beat checking everything is okay, rather than waiting for a response to a urgent call to ‘000.’

    • H of SA says:

      04:34pm | 16/12/09

      Hi again Tom. I think we are actually pretty close to the same position but just slightly different. Exactly as you say - its enforcement we aren’t actually debating the laws. Perhaps the difference is I would like to see more enforcement - My understanding is that you are concerned about heavy handed policing causing more problems than it solves - which I think is a legitimate concern.

      My take is I would like to see what may seem like less “tolerant” policing by having more intervention including on the misdemeanour end of the scale. In order to stop trouble early so that it doesn’t escalate to more serious incidents. E.g. through the guy who is groping every girl in the pub into a cell before he provokes one of the girls boyfriends to glass him. It may seem heavy handed - but it also avoids the more intense intervention - e.g. assault arrest/ambulance ect.

      And yes there are plenty of groups that cost the community - non offending drunks and smokers pay for their cost through the high tax on alcohol and tobacco so they aren’t an issue for public purses. Yes illicit drugs is a community cost and very difficult to police - perhaps targetting more intervention at the reduce demand rather than the police end of the spectrum? Car drivers, well they pay rego fees so they add to the pot too, people can’t really do anything about their ageing or genetic predispositions so we just live with the cost. So that leaves the unhealthy eaters and the drunks who do offend, I’ll leave the obesity for the many other threads about the topic but yeah - I’m in favour of better policing of the drunks who commit crimes to help reduce the extra costs down the line.

    • bella starkey says:

      04:34pm | 16/12/09

      I have met and interviewed Andrew Scipione, as well as Catherine Burn, the Metro assistant commisioner. They are both reasonable, logical people who firmly believe in community engagement as a path to crime reduction and effective policing. In fact Catherine Burn has stated that she doesnt believe that alcohol related violence is increasing, infact she knows that it has decreased. She told me that policing powers rise and fall with public perceptions and currently it is on the rise. The tide will turn.

      Talking to these people you really realise how much of a media beat up this is. Anyone who goes out in Sydney can see the evidence and knows it is.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      04:57pm | 16/12/09

      @ Ben says: 02:54pm | 16/12/09
      Ben, what I said was “Every morning I wake up and on the news there is a fight here and a glassing there”. I should have also added the occasional knifing. I’m assuming that the people reporting the news are not making this stuff up. Therefore if it’s not fictional then it must be real and someone got really hurt. Now, my apology for been concerned and feeling sorry for the person that was knifed and the grief that it caused.

      So, in very simple terms I’m saying glassing – knifing – violence is not acceptable and you response is “just execute people on the spot for looking like they might do something wrong”.  Well if they look like they may do something wrong then guess what they probably will. Can I suggest Ben that you drop the execute bit it’s a tad harsh.

      If you think that this is acceptable behaviour then just in case you are not clear – it is not! If a Gestapo is required then so be it, maybe one of the Gestapo might prevent you from been glassed.

      As for “payback” – I am comforted in the knowledge that there will be many many others in your generation that will make a far greater contribution to this society than the dribble in your post. Maybe you should go to church it will definitely do you some good.

    • Clinton says:

      05:08pm | 16/12/09

      Spot on Penbo - I’ve been absolutely astonished at the ridiculous holier than thou flood of police on the streets, doing everything they can for their photo ops, harassing people doing something that is totally legal - drink.

      Yes they get drunk, loud and obnoxious. But why we need to spend all that money and resources over-policing people for being annoying, is beyond me.

    • Phil says:

      05:53pm | 16/12/09

      Grog doesn’t punch people.

      People punch people.

    • Jamers Hunter says:

      12:29pm | 20/12/09

      Bella Starky, love your attitude Bella “political leadership”  unfortunately is an oxymoron. What pollies do mostly, is follow .Follow any wiff of what they see as a voter winning idea. “course they have warped perceptions so that does’nt help !

    • cats says:

      04:57pm | 20/12/09

      Maybe if they made Weed legal (like it should be) the problem with alcohol will lessen somewhat. When people smoke weed, it is very, very unlikely they are going to harm someone else, it is almost impossible to overdose on, doesn’t give you a hangover, and if people smoke it at home before they go out, they may not even want to go out because they get lazy and just want to sit and eat and watch movies. Alcohol has FAR worse effects than weed - don’t argue because it’s true. And smoking can be replaced with eating/therefore minimal health effects.

    • Arios says:

      11:17pm | 10/01/10

      As someone who never has anything to hide and never drinks myself silly, but definitely enjoys a couple of drinks in moderation every now and then, I wouldn’t mind if police came up to me and had a chat, good on them for caring and keeping an eye on things. I would have nothing to hide and therefore nothing to be bothered about. I like the fact that police get out and about and take an active role like this.

      My father was a cop for 23 years, perhaps I appreciate what cops do a little more than most. They are just ordinary people doing their job. We need them out there. If you have nothing to hide and aren’t a scum bag, you have nothing to worry about.

      This comes across to be as a bit of an ungrateful whinge Penbo. You either want police to be actively out there keeping an eye on things (which comes in very handy when there are yobs around - which is every single day in every single city in Oz), OR you don’t want any cops “ruining” your quiet chardonnay picnic. You can’t have it both ways. Like I said, if you are sitting there being responsible and sensible, you have nothing to worry about. Cops aren’t idiots, they won’t lock up perfectly good people for nothing. They are pretty good at seeing the trash and identifying trouble makers.

      You have to realise a lot of the time that these laws are more often not, created just to give the cops these powers “if and when they require it”. It does NOT mean they are going to go around and ruin every sensible person’s quiet picnic.

      The reality right now is that Australian streets are literally filled with scum and thuggery. It’s all too common, the bashings, the smashed bottles, the chaos. I don’t see any of this here in Tokyo where I now live - and Tokyo is far from a perfect place. But the culture here is ingrained a lot more in each individual and people don’t cross the line like they do in Australia. There is a much greater sense of responsibility here with the individual. And unfortunately the Aussie culture just doesn’t have that as part of it. There are so many things that Aussie culture could learn from the Japanese. But until that happens (never), we have to enforce what is needed and stop the thugs and drunks from crossing over the line, because sure as hell they aren’t going to grow extra brain cells and work that out themselves. Which has been proven every single weekend. Just watch the news for the next spate of bashings, glassings and thuggery. We all know there’ll be more tomorrow and next week. Therefore drastic changes are needed and if culture doesn’t self-medicate this, stronger rules/laws are required to make those decisions for the thugs who can’t be responsible for themselves.

 

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