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Modern parenting is losing the plot

Emma Grey

by Emma Grey

12 Jan 05:35am

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Filed under: Abortions, Children, Families, Ivf, Society

152 comments

My attempts to write something in response to news that a Victorian couple - desperate for a daughter - had aborted twin boys conceived through IVF, met repeatedly with failure. I had a dental abscess when the story broke and I couldn’t think about the scenario without gnashing my teeth. 

Contestant from Toddlers and Tiaras

In the end, I had to stop writing, take two Nurofen Plus, lie on the couch and watch inane TV to calm down. 

Toddlers and Tiaras would do the trick, I thought, wrongly.

I watched in horror as an eight-year-old threw a well-deserved tantrum against having to endure another spray tan in the purpose-built tent her mum had procured online and set up in their living room.  She seemed equally nonplussed about being measured for her ‘flipper’ (fake teeth).

‘I wouldn’t say she’s a pushy parent’, observed the woman’s down-trodden husband – staggering to the car underneath several thousand dollars’ worth of taffeta pageant dresses, a variety of wigs and the laptop on which his wife had been checking out photos of their daughter’s main rival.

Then, trailing a manicured hand along the shrine she had built out of ‘Supreme Queen’ crowns in her daughter’s pageant-themed bedroom, the self-professed ‘pageant mom’ said of her little girl: ‘she’s become my hobby’.

At this point I had to ask: was it the double-strength ibuprofen I was taking four-hourly for my dental problem, or had modern parenting completely lost the plot?

The woman in the IVF story, sadly, had lost one daughter shortly after birth and admitted to being ‘obsessed’ with having a girl, which she sees as ‘vital to her psychological health’.  Something is undoubtedly vital to her psychological health, but I can almost guarantee it is not a ‘replacement’ baby girl - at the cost of her sons. 

‘Gender disappointment’ is a taboo topic that many pregnant women struggle with, often silently, from the moment the gender-determining ultrasound reveals pink or blue. 

It’s taboo because there’s something ‘spoilt brat’ about a parent receiving the gift of a child and complaining that it’s not exactly what they wanted – especially when others around them are struggling to have children at all.

I recently unearthed the diaries I’d written as a child.  In one of them, I wrote, ‘When I grow up, I’m going to have a boy first, then twin girls’.  Just like that. Babies made to order.

Childish thought, non?

As life panned out, my best friend ended up with the boy and twin girls.  I had two daughters.  Nine years later, a step-daughter and step-son came into my life.  I now have a baby son.  That’s a completed family picture I never imagined, and one I’m extremely thankful to see displayed on the mantelpiece. 

I’m not in the habit of lurking in online forums, but I admit I spent an hour after reading the IVF story trawling a website called ‘In Gender’, where women support and, dare I say it, egg each other on through GD (Gender Disappointment) when they don’t get their DG (Desired Gender). 

I understand wanting a daughter.  I understand wanting a son.  I can appreciate being disappointed not to have one or the other after several of the same gender. 

I tried to understand the extent of what is described by many women on this forum as ‘grief’ that lasts years, in some cases, when a baby isn’t the ‘right’ sex.  I couldn’t. 

Perhaps it’s the fact that a woman on the forum I do regularly post on lost her baby only a few weeks ago, or maybe it’s that several close friends have been desperately trying to conceive now for years, but if I read one more post about someone being ‘terrified of her ultrasound’ (in case it’s a unwanted boy or another girl), I will howl.

Our family jokes about what our ten-week old baby will ‘be’ when he grows up.  My husband has him pegged as a forward with a French rugby team.  My daughter thinks he’ll be a ballerina. My step-daughter envisages a mixed career of football and stage musicals. 

When my little girl was six, she wanted to be a ‘present girl’ when she grew up.  This is a person who wraps gifts in shopping centres at Christmas.

Whether I end up supporting my kids from the bleachers, the dress circle or standing in a queue on Christmas Eve with a trolley load of gifts I don’t really need that I could just as easily wrap myself, I hope I’ll be thinking the same thing, with the same sense of love - regardless of gender, success or the path they choose:

‘That’s my child!’ 

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152 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • HarlequinBeetle says:

      05:55am | 12/01/11

      Child abuse.  Now to question the legality and then…  the sentence….
      [ How do we avoid punishing the child by removing the parents? ]

      PS:  anybody who has sufficient money to participate in this circus has too much.  Penalty? Forcible annual donation to charity of the sum at least equal to that spent on geegaws and the like.

      Reply

    • Bec says:

      08:36am | 12/01/11

      There should be a test, copious amounts of training classes and a license required before people can give birth. Some people should just not be parents.

    • Rednax says:

      09:54am | 13/01/11

      It’s reality TV. Which is usually far from reality. If you actually believe everything you see on television - especially ‘reality’ TV - that you need a serious reality check.

      Before judging people, walk a mile in their shoes. Go and see a pageant, talk to parents and the kids. Then make a judgement call based on all the facts.

    • theGnome says:

      07:39am | 12/01/11

      Yeah, to those who cannot have children (even with IVF) - the thought of aborting a child because it is the wrong gender is enough to make you go postal.

      Reply

    • Luce says:

      09:12am | 12/01/11

      It’s a chilling thought. I’m not anti-abortion because there are times when there isn’t much of an option, but this couple knew full well the risk they were taking on by doing IVF, that there was at least a 50% chance of conceiving a boy (or two as the case may be). A termination is a LAST resort when NO other options are available… it’s not a get out of jail free card because a conscious, informed choice, with a high risk of not going as planned, doesn’t go as planned. It makes me feel ill to think about what they’ve done. Such an unecessary waste of life which could have easily been avoided.

    • Joan says:

      03:11pm | 12/01/11

      TheGnome, I agree with you!

      I would only understand terminating the pregnancy if the mothers health was at risk, or there was something horribly wrong with the babies.

    • Steve says:

      09:56pm | 12/01/11

      I agree with Luce. I don’t think abortion is something to be done lightly. I think it’s justifiable in cases where a pregnancy has come from rape, when there is danger to the mother if the pregnancy proceeds etc. I don’t think it’s a matter of convenience. The gift of creating a human being is something very special and it saddens me how lightly our society takes it.

    • Elphaba says:

      07:58am | 12/01/11

      Those pagents are creepy.  If your kid wants acting and dance classes, sure, that’s all good fun.  ‘Cutest Baby’ competitions are good fun too.  But this is sexualisation of children at its most perverse.  I wouldn’t let my child do it, even if they threw a Vesuvius-style tantrum.

      Brrr!  Creepy…

      Emma, a relative of mine was apparently devastated when her youngest son was not a girl (according to my Mum - I was not old enough to witness first hand).  But the effects are still there today.  When he brings home girlfriends, she immediately starts in on telling him that “It’s like she’s my daughter!”  Problem is though, whenever she says how much she likes them, that’s when he gets rid of them.  There’s a new ‘daughter’ every few months.

      I dn’t get it either.  But it does happen…

      Reply

    • Luce says:

      09:16am | 12/01/11

      When I have children it doesn’t matter in the slightest what gender they are, as long as they’re happy and healthy!

    • Elphaba says:

      10:30am | 12/01/11

      @Luce, I agree. 

      Although I think I’d want to find out the sex before the baby is born.  I’d find it exciting to know before it comes along.

    • gonzo says:

      10:51am | 12/01/11

      @Elphaba:

      Nothing wrong with that! I do so too… There is a HUGE difference between finding out the sex to know what you’re having and finding out to see if you discard them (sorry for the rough word, but that’s what that couple did. And it makes me sick).

    • Shifter says:

      11:57am | 12/01/11

      It seems hereditary. The successful pageant daughters become pageant mums and the ones who lose weren’t that into it anyway. So the pageantry continues down the family line.

      That said, is it the few that make headlines for the wrong reasons? In sporting fields you get the ugly parent syndrome and the parents who push their kids ridiculously hard so they can be the next sports superstar. Is that any different to the pageant mums?

      @Elphaba - Emma sounds like she’s scaring the girlfriends off rather than her son getting rid of them.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:15pm | 12/01/11

      @Shifter, I think there’s the weird ones on thing like Toddlers and Tiaras, and obviously, the show would not be hitting the right nerve if the parents were not over the top.  But I fail to see anything good about child pagents.  Whether there’s a talent section or not, ultimately they are judging the girls on their looks, and they look like little adults.  Fake tans, coiffed hair, manicured nails, bleached teeth - it’s a bit sick.  Kids are supposed to be concerned with digging up worms and riding their bikes, not sashaying around with more makeup than most sensible women wear.

      But it’s a personal thing. I’m sure if I looked as gorgeous as some of the girls competing in grown-up comps like Miss Universe, I’d feel differently, lol

      As for my relative, I reckon her son is going to marry the girl she can’t stand.  He just hasn’t found her yet. tongue laugh

    • Steve says:

      09:59pm | 12/01/11

      @Elphaba I think finding out before hand for curiosity or more practical reasons is fair enough. Though I personally made sure I didn’t know what any of mine were until they came out - just my preference as I found that far more exciting.
      Playing God though is another matter entirely.

    • Hmmm says:

      05:20am | 13/01/11

      @ Luce you do say that now, but the reality is most parents DO have a preference and sometimes after four boys a mum just wants a girl. She cannot just keep having children until achieving this. I think we are all too quick to judge people without actually stopping and thinking about the reasons WHY.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:06am | 13/01/11

      @Steve, ‘playing God’ needs to be defined specifically.  I’d argue that doctors play God every day by saving lives.

      @Hmmm, I’m with you.  I don’t agree with aborting babies that aren’t the ‘right’ sex, but don’t believe in howling and calling them murderers either.  That’s not productive.  I can’t even begin to fathom the emotions that go into having a child, because I’m not that keen on the whole concept.  It’s sad that it happened, but if gender selection was available, it probably wouldn’t have happened at all.  Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils…

    • Anna says:

      10:45am | 13/01/11

      Elphaba,
      sounds like my mother in law. 40 odd years after having her 4th son she still has not come to term with it, and each time one of the inlaw daughters are pregnant we have to listen to 7 months on “how so prayed for a daughter and when it wasnt to be how she prayed for grandaughters”.
      Now us daughter in laws have to deal with her insane obsession with our daughters. Each time I hear or see her she makes me sick to the stomach, and angry! Angry that the only reason she cares for my child is because it is a girl.
      And of the 4 daughters in law 3 have the same issues and feelings. We all see how she treats the 3 grandsons in comparison to the 6 grandaughters, we tired of being told what to do and how, of her insane spoiling of the girls, of her doing everything for them (Even their coloring in, because “you cant color between the lines yet”). When I see her hug my newborn, press it against her chest and rock it, the only thing I want to do is strangle her. I am utterly fuming that she decided she needed to see my daughter as soon as she was born to ‘bond’ (she didnt I prevented that).

      So this woman who aborted the twins because they are boys, and all the women on the in-gender forums, they should be referred to a shrink AND prevented from having kids until they sort out their issues.
      For the child to be born but also for future grandchildren and to protect the inlaw kids from having to go through weeks of depression due to their actions, like I did.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:17am | 13/01/11

      @Anna, wow, what a story!  That’s awful, what a psycho.  And your mother-in-law to boot.  I’ve heard some freaky monster-in-law stories, that’s right up there!

      I would love to be able to understand the grief women feel about not having a baby of a particular sex.  It’s completely alien to me.  I like kids (a lot), I’ve got friends and relos with little ones who love hanging around me, and I them - but I cannot understand how some women can’t just love babies no matter what they are.

      They’re just too cute, no matter if they’re a boy or girl! lol

      Re: the couple, as soon as I read ‘I need to have a daughter for my psychological welbeing’, that rang alarm bells.  Certainly before being offered IVF again, those parents should be getting some in-depth counselling.  It should be a matter of course.

    • Leah says:

      12:52pm | 13/01/11

      @Hmmm - I have a friend who, after 2 boys, wanted a girl. She got another boy. After the third boy, she *really* wanted a girl. She got another boy. I have heard that they are probably going to stop at around 5, so if they do go for another, I’m sure she’ll really be hanging out for a girl. But she loves her four boys very much and I’m sure she’ll love the 5th (if she has one) no matter if it’s a girl or boy.

    • Anna says:

      01:12pm | 13/01/11

      @ Elphaba yes it;s nuts and very scary, so scary to me that I try to avoid going there and already thinking of excuses to not have my little girl stay there alone (there is a lot more to the story which makes her behaviour worrying).
      To boot, I couldn’t get pregnant, and decided against IVF and after 14 years a miracle,then marred by scares of Down Syndrome and worse. So to us, we didnt care if it would have had pink hair and floppy ears as long as it was healthy.

      Yearning for a child on one gender or another to the point of aborting twins is just unhealthy. It reeks of serious unsolved mental issues and couples like that should be put on a global IVF blacklist until they resolve their issues.
      I can understand that after X boys, you might like a girl but a child is not an accesory, or a trophy. it’s not a case of I got the degree, the job, the house, car, microwave and son, and now I want a daughter to match my cute pink poodle (sorry this issue really touches and angers me).

      I truly hope the court will deny the request.

    • Emma says:

      02:40pm | 13/01/11

      Supposedly I was ‘meant’ to be my aunties and mum ‘stole’ her baby girl from her (my cousin and I are 1 week apart. I am female, he is male). It was all said in ‘joke’ of course, but she still refers to me as her ‘stolen daughter’... she kinda freaks me out

    • Elphaba says:

      02:51pm | 13/01/11

      @Emma - that is weird.  Kinda like the whole stolen baby name thing… pregnant woman tells another pregnant woman the baby name she’s considering, the latter goes into labour first, then names the child with the former’s baby name.

      Is that like what it is?  Were you first?

    • Shifter says:

      03:05pm | 13/01/11

      @Anna - admit it, pink hair would have been pretty amazing.

      I don’t envy you on the mother in law front though.

    • KH says:

      07:59am | 12/01/11

      The woman in that story needs psychiatric help - not IVF procedures.  The thought of allowing another child to be brought up by such selfish self centred people really irks me.  Clearly she wants a toy to play with - a doll to dress up and put bows on.  I feel sorry for her existing children (to know they weren’t what she wanted, particularly the younger ones who will now know forever the only reason they were conceived was in hope of a girl), and any future children - her fantasies of perfection are a lot of pressure for a child, and rebellion is almost guaranteed.

      Your responsibility as a parent is to guide your children into their own adulthood as well adjusted as possible.  Their gender shouldn’t be an issue - you are the one with the problem if it is.

      Reply

    • Hmm says:

      05:43am | 13/01/11

      Oh good, I am glad that we can do that and sacrifice this womans mental health.

    • Mr GG says:

      10:33am | 14/01/11

      @hmm
      She doesn’t have a right to a girl, she should accept that you get what your given. Society doesn’t accept her behaviour(and shouldn’t) and she should be denied and further waste of societies time when there are less selfish people that would make better use of the expensive blessing that IVF can bring.

      She has kids already She should Raise them, She need to Accept She does NOT have a Daughter and Stop being Immature and Selfish.
      She has Sacrificed two Babies already for her ‘metal health’ when really it is her unrealistic expectations that are the problem. For her Mental Health she should be told the Grow up!!!

    • Rose says:

      08:09am | 12/01/11

      Then you have the parents who have their kids enrolled in activity after activity, maths school, language school, ballet, music lessons etc, never giving the kids a chance to just play, or just sit or just be! These are often the same kids who are terrified of taking home anything less than straight A’s. There are some kids who have never been allowed to get dirty, or to make their own mistakes or to live in anything less than a near sterile environment. Parents, kids are not a lump of clay to mold into your idea of the perfect person, they are real people who just need you to care for them, to guide them and to enjoy them for who they are.

      Reply

    • MelD says:

      12:46pm | 12/01/11

      if it’s the kids wanting them then let them do it if you can afford it as it is the childs wish to do these, but if the child doesn’t want to do it then it is the parents agenda only and they should consider what the child wants

    • Jess says:

      09:22am | 13/01/11

      My parents encouraged me to take part in a lot of ‘after school activities’ and often when I’d get bored and want to give up they pushed me to continue. Thanks to them I now understand the value of committment and I’m still reaping the rewards of the activities they sometimes had to ‘force’ me to do! I have been doing martial arts for 12 years and during highschool there were many times when I wanted to go to a party or something but couldn’t because of training or competitions. If my parents hadn’t have pushed me so hard to continue I would have given it up before I realised how much I enjoyed it! The same thing happened with my piano lessons and as much as I felt like it was a punishment at the time I have nothing but thanks for my parents now.

    • grumpy old man says:

      08:10am | 12/01/11

      My mother wanted a daughter. She had 5 successive boys before she got her daughter. All us boys knew mum wanted a daughter, but we didn’t feel any less loved because of this, in fact is was a bit of a family joke ( comments to mum and dad such as “can’t you guys get this right etc) .
      I can’t help applying what these parents have done to my siblings, ( I am the eldest), I would not be without my brothers, and the thought that if my parents had the same mentality as these two rather strange people, I would not have my brothers, is an utterly devastating thought.
      I really think that anyone who suffers mental grief because the gender of their child is not what they wanted needs some psychological help, not IVF. It is natures way to love your child, good, bad or indifferent , boy, girl as they be, unconditionally and eternally.

      Reply

    • Ilana Leeds says:

      08:23pm | 16/01/11

      Thank G-D there are still some relatively ‘NORMAL’ people around who value life above all else. Beethoven would have likely been aborted in this century.

    • Benison says:

      08:26am | 12/01/11

      Good on you! I have three sons and was admittedly disappointed to find out, when still pregnant, the last was a boy, but when he was born I loved him just the same. In the end he turned out to have a disability, which was the biggest reality check of all. The cliche - just as long as it’s healthy - is around for a reason.  Whilst I would have loved a daughter, now my boys are older - two are teenagers - I have realised I am the perfect parent for boys. They are so beautifully uncomplicated!

      Reply

    • Lyn says:

      09:14am | 13/01/11

      I agree!  I have two awesome sons - no daughters.  My boys were lucky enough to grow up in a small, closed country town and therefore were able to explore the world around them.  They got dirty, ended up with a few stitches and even broke a bone (shock, horror!!!)  While we encouraged them to always do their best we didn’t freak out if they failed at something.  Our philosophy was - what you do with your life is up to you - as long as your actions don’t enroach upon, or affect others well being or happiness then do what makes you happy.  The result is two well adjusted young men, with excellent jobs and very high moral values.

    • Carz says:

      08:42am | 12/01/11

      A child is a gift, regardless of their gender. I do believe there can be grief for not getting a child of a desired gender. My mother miscarried three times, between my older sister and I, and again between myself and my younger brother. All of the babies lost were boys. I know what it is like to not be exactly what was wanted.

      BTW, please read the instructions on the Nurofen Plus. I am pretty sure you are only supposed to take them 6 hourly, with a maximum of six in a 24 hour period.

      Reply

    • Abraham says:

      12:16am | 13/01/11

      A child is a gift that is conceived through coitus, and comes with 9 months of hardship on the mother, with a painful (and even dangerous) delivery at the end. This is then followed by 24 months of sleep deprivation. It’s also a life sentence for the parents if the child is disabled, and needs to be cared for for the rest of its life. And to top things off, you become a punch bag for society, as they start their acts of being righteous. Indeed, a child is a gift. Btw, if the Lord asks me to sacrifice my child at the altar, do I listen to Him? Or do I defy Him and obey the Australian law instead?

    • Darren says:

      09:59am | 13/01/11

      Abraham: You obey Australian Law because if you tell me the lord told you to sacrifice your child I would have you commited. Religion should be outlawed.

    • Abraham says:

      11:42am | 13/01/11

      Religion also makes people spew phrases like “A child is a gift”. A gift from who exactly? A child is the labour product of its mother. Why should an unborn fetus hold more significance than whoever is bearing it? We can extrapolate this even further: Shaving and cutting your hair and clipping your nails should be banned. “See this hair on my head? It’s alive and receiving nutrients from me. [Cuts hair] LOOK! I just killed those strands of hair! You can take me in now, Officer”. These are living, growing cells too, and is a “gift” from [insert deity here]. And what about germs and virus and cancer and tumors? These are living things too. What? It’s ok to kill parasites? Ok, so what are the characteristics of a parasite? And what are the characteristics of a fetus? who determines that it’s ok to cut your hair and take your medicine, but it’s not ok to get rid of a “growth” in your womb? Obviously, there are a whole slew of debates on the ethics of abortion (which I’ve conveniently left out), but my point is, people are too quick to pass judgment on the mother, when it is her body to begin with.

    • James Milton says:

      07:05pm | 15/01/11

      @Abraham: her body, but the child is only half hers. If it is true as you say, that the fetus is nothing but a ‘growth’ in the womb, why does Australian law charge anyone who harms that ‘growth’. And in the case of murder, the murderer will be charged on TWO accounts of killing. Why is it magically not a baby when the mother doesn’t want it to be, but an unborn child (under law) the rest of the time?

    • The Time Lord says:

      08:51am | 12/01/11

      Its not only the toddlers and tiaras bit but also some of those ‘display sports’ as well.  My 9 year old granddaughter is very much into gymnastics and knows all about dieting and purging, child abuse, bloody oath unfortunately her parents know better!

      Reply

    • Elissa says:

      07:05pm | 12/01/11

      I pulled my 8 year old out of Gymnastics when she started complaining about being fat - she was at the time still able to fit into size 6 she was soooo skinny. Put her into Martial arts instead as it was about accepting who she was not changing her

    • Steph says:

      09:01am | 12/01/11

      The girls in those pageants are like toys! dress them up, put make up on them, sling a bow in their hair and it’s like playing dollies from your childhood.

      Also, I can see it giving girls a complex later in life (eg. High School). If they win, they’re cooed at and applauded for being a little beauty and, with that self satisfying thought embedded into their head, they fly into puberty thinking they’re God’s gift to men. A cut above the rest of the girls, naturally beautiful but artfully skilled in putting on the most flattering makeup to make her face a little ray of sunshine.

      On the other hand, the girls who didn’t win ... well, you can see where this is going. Self-image issues. Depressive views of themselves. “My mum put me up against other girls and I wasn’t pretty enough to win”.

      Right. Now I better go look after my son. The one that went from (on hearing his gender at 20 wk scan) “Oh. It’s a boy. Well, I’ll love him all the same. I’ll get a girl one day” to (now, he’s 1) “I honestly can’t imagine loving anyone more than I do him. How I will be able to split my love between two children, I don’t know, but he’s everything and more I could ask for” (even now, 8 months pregnant with the second, a girl).

      Reply

    • Luce says:

      10:04am | 12/01/11

      I don’t know if it’s just me but I find it unsettling that some parents place so much emphasis on the importance of physical appearance when their child is so young and impressionable. How can the child, when raised in such a skewed and unbalanced manner, NOT grow up to have a complex of some sort? Either that or have a vapid and vain personality with no interest in life outside of the superficial. The parents are just breeding little clones of themselves.

    • Markus says:

      11:15am | 12/01/11

      Even more unsettling is the bitter irony that all the fake tans and makeup done while obsessing on the kids’ physical appearance, will probably make them look about 40 years old by the time they turn 18.

    • Luce says:

      01:44pm | 12/01/11

      True.. but by then the parents will have fulfilled their need for living vicariously through the success of their children, and the children, unable to retain their youthful looks because of their parents actions, will do the same to their kids as they strive for what they lost. It’s a nasty cycle.

    • James1 says:

      09:26am | 12/01/11

      When my wife became pregnant, we both decided we wanted a girl.  Personally, I have spent far more time around women, and just find them generally much easier to deal with than men, and my wife wanted a girl because she heard they were easier to deal with as babies.  Thus, so as to avoid gender disappointment, we decided to not find out the sex of the child during the pregnancy.  This way, if the child turned out to be a boy, we would not find out until he/she (she, as it turned out) was being born, and who could be disappointed at the birth of their first child?

      All that said, we both wanted a girl and a girl was what we got.  So others might find themselves feeling differently.

      Reply

    • Bilby says:

      10:02am | 12/01/11

      We did that for our first and I was very happy with the girl we got. Things were different for the second, and I wanted a boy. When we found out (we asked for the second, but not the first) we were having another girl, I was sad for sure. This was our last chance and now it was never going to happen. Of course I love my girls as much as ever, but there’s a twinge of envy when I hang out with mates with sons. The trouble is that I now have two healthy happy kids, and the risks involved with trying again are just not worth it for the 50/50 odds. Such is life.

    • Dash says:

      10:23am | 12/01/11

      Wow, a man who thinks women are easier to deal with! What’s your secret James?

    • James1 says:

      11:22am | 12/01/11

      Dash, I think it is the familiarity.  I have 3 sisters, and my father was always away for work, so my mother and grandmother were formative influences in my early life.  I am used to girls and find them easy to deal with because of having spent nearly 30 years around them all the time - that’s really what it comes down to.

      So if you want the same, you better start working on it now…

    • Elissa says:

      07:11pm | 12/01/11

      Girl babies easier???? Whoever made that rumour up never met my first born a girl, that never slept and screamed constantly. I had a boy next followed by a girl - all so much easier than the first girl. Sex has nothing to do with how easy they are. They have personality’s already when born which are nothing to do with their sex.

    • Mum of 2 boys says:

      08:15pm | 12/01/11

      We both always wanted a girl.  our first turned out to be a boy.  We weren’t too disappointed because we knew we wanted more children, well another one at least.  The second one, I really wanted a girl.  We got a boy.  It took me quite a while to get over the disappointment. I’d go weepy when I’d see little baby girls and toddler girls around.  I wanted to find out early before he was born to deal more with my own emotions rather than finding out at birth, knowing I wanted a girl so badly and not being able to bond with baby.  It’s bad enough with all those hormones being out of control.  I still get twinges of envy when I see friends with daughters.  I cannot fathom aborting 2 healthy boys just because you wanted a girl.  Having 3 boys was more than enough boys for that couple so why take the risk?  We knew we did not want more than 2 and statistically you’re more than likely to have another one of the same gender if you’ve had 2 of the same gender before.  That’s why we’re not having a 3rd.  The fact that my second was not a girl was my problem to deal with, which was giving up a dream.  You mourn the loss of your dream and get over it.  I get my need to have girly moments now by spending some time with my niece, baking and buying her girly stuff for her birthday,  BTW, I do bake with my sons too. and a bit like the woman mentioned before, I’m hoping and praying for nice daughter in laws .

    • Caz says:

      08:54pm | 12/01/11

      Bilby, don’t be too disappointed, you will probably end up with a football team of grandsons before you know it.

      I have a friend who is one of five girls, between them there are 13 grandchildren….all boys!

      I have been blessed with both. While my girls are so sensible, my sons, although 23 and 20, are still idiots…..always have been but hopefully will not always be!!! Wrestling, knee reconstructions, cheating on girlfriends (the shame of that!), broken bones, stitches, tattoos (after spending about a million bucks on private education and knowing how much I hate them), drinking too much, swearing etc etc etc etc etc…...A BLOODY NIGHTMARE!!!

    • Bilby says:

      08:50am | 13/01/11

      Caz - Well I do sort of look forward to my sons in law wink And while my BIL was somewhat like your sons, his wife is one of the sweetest, down to earth, sensible girls you’re ever likely to meet who rules him with the iron fist in the velvet glove. Everything has a way of balancing itself out in the end.

    • Anna says:

      01:27pm | 13/01/11

      @Mum of 2 boys: “I’m hoping and praying for nice daughter in laws”

      do but remember if they have girls they are NOT your daughters they are your grandaughters and don’t put your future daughters in law through the hell I am going through because my mother in law had the same idea.

      I spend the first 4 weeks crying because she found it more important that she was denied seeing my daughter within hours of birth then to ask me how I was after a very long and dangerous delivery or to ask how our little girl was. Its all “me me me” with her.

    • Tracy says:

      09:58am | 12/01/11

      Do we have those sorts of pageants here in Australia? I hope not! I don’t think anyone would get involved, surely?
      As cruel as it sounds…the world was easier for potential parents before IVF…those who couldn’t concieve would grieve, then find acceptance, then alternatives: adoption, fostering, or forming deeper bonds with friends’ and relatives’ kids. Now, there are thousands of potential parents who go through years of massive dissapointments each time a cycle fails. They live in hope, only for the hopes to be shattered. The strain on marriages, families etc is enormous. And now it has progressed to cases like this, where people are still feeling massive dissapointment because the gender isn’t right. Life is so very complex…

      Reply

    • George says:

      02:01pm | 12/01/11

      ‘Do we have those sorts of pageants here in Australia?’ - Tracy

      @ Tracy - Yes we do its was called ‘Junior Masterchef’!

    • Elissa says:

      07:14pm | 12/01/11

      I think life was easier before ready availability of abortion. Then there were children to adopt. Now an unplanned pregnancy means abortion and there are no children to adopt. Glad my husband who was an adopted child was born before abortion became so readily available.

    • El Corona says:

      11:35pm | 12/01/11

      @Elissa - Are you on drugs? Abortion is not as readilly available as it should be because of the crazy stigma attached to it, and the number of kids available for adoption is still extremely high which is also because of the crazy stigma attached to abortion. I think abortion should be mandatory for underage pregnancies and the option given to every pregnant woman. This would reduce the global over population and the increasing amount of people living in poverty because they can’t afford a family.
      IVF should be banned until adoption doesn’t exist anymore because the kids that need love are available now! If you need to have a child so desperately get one that needs you as much as you need him or her. That’s what I’ll be doing when I’m ready.

    • Lee says:

      05:50am | 13/01/11

      @Elissa- so women cannot have the choice of what they do to their own bodies? You dont know the reasons WHY they have abortions. Abortion is not isolated to “unplanned pregnancy”, it can also extend to genetic disorder or other disability. People should not be judged for the choices that they make, based on the information given to them at the time.  Your generalisation is a bit offensive to those who have made a decision based on medical reasons.

    • Bilby says:

      09:26am | 13/01/11

      Lee / El Corona - It’s the casual attitude to ending a developing foetus’ life that has changed me from “pro-choice” to “have some bloody respect for life”. I am ambivalent to supportive of termination on severe disability grounds, but we’re really starting to see how far down the slippery slope we’ve come, and I would hope that to more than a few this is cause for concern.

      Lee - People should *only* be judged on the choices they make. That’s the one thing that people have control over.

    • Elissa says:

      09:43am | 13/01/11

      If adoption is so easy here in Australia why can none of my friends adopt. They then turn to overseas adoptions but the red tape and money required for this option also make it impossible.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption_in_Australia

      With the story of the parents who wanted to euthanase their 2 year old daughter because she was diagnosed with Rhetts disorder so much in the media - I don’t see the difference between this and and abortion because a baby has some disorder. And I have given it a lot of thought because I had high risk pregnancies of having a child with a disorder. The only times I see abortion as necessary is the health of the mother and rape.

    • LC says:

      01:36pm | 14/01/11

      @El Corona,

      Perhaps it should be encouraged in cases of underage pregnancy, or in cases where the mother is not physically/psychologically fit to give birth. But it should NEVER be mandatory.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      02:53pm | 12/01/11

      CREEPY, CREEPY, CREEPY, I loved taking my daughter shopping for clothes & now I get to take my grand daughters shopping, but I would NEVER encourage them to be involved in anything where looks were paramount. I’m happy to say, yes they like dressing in nice clothes but also love playing lacrosse too, to me that is a balance

      Reply

    • Sally Marks says:

      06:59pm | 12/01/11

      This is just selfish crap. I would just like to have A CHILD. At 50 and 3 years into menopause, that is impossible. So thanks for making me feel like I belong to a different universe. Luckily, I have nieces and more nieces… actual and referred from family extensions .. I would love more nephews, but I am grateful for the beautiful gifts I share, even vicariously.

      Reply

    • just me says:

      07:34pm | 12/01/11

      You don’t belong to a different universe, you sound like an awesome aunt. I recently had a baby and both of my sister in laws are unable to have children. One is in her mid 40’s and has started menopause and the other has major health problems resulting in infertility. Since my baby was born (a little girl) both her aunts have staunchly ignored her existence. They refused to visit us in hospital, no congratulations were ever sent, they even refer to her as ‘it’ and not by her name. My baby is now nearly 1 and neither of her aunts have ever seen her. Both live less than 10 minutes drive away. You might not have your own flesh and blood but I bet your nieces love you more than anything. I would do anything for my daughter to have an aunt like you.

    • LisaJ says:

      10:24am | 14/01/11

      I can’t have kids naturally, but I spoil my young cousins. Im the bestest cousin they have and we have “cousin moments” which helps strengthen the bond we have. I would do almost anything for them, and they know it. It sounds like that Sally, you’re one popular Aunt!

    • nankypoo says:

      07:17pm | 12/01/11

      I didn’t want children. Of any sex or denomination. My wife (to be) wanted a daughter. We negotiated to “if the first child is a girl, we stop. If the first child and second are boys, we stop at two” As it happened, we had a son and a daughter. I was snipped two months later. We have never regretted our choice.

      Reply

    • Lee says:

      05:37am | 13/01/11

      She was very understanding.

    • the Liberal Loafer says:

      07:23pm | 12/01/11

      Your comment:
      modern parenting passes the buck to the modern grandparents wherever possible.
      Liberals proudly put modern parents to work for modern debts.

      Reply

    • Bilby says:

      08:17am | 13/01/11

      It’s hardly modern. In early societies, the old looked after the kids while the young and able bodied hunted and gathered/worked the fields.

    • LB says:

      07:47pm | 12/01/11

      I had my children in my late thirties.  My childlessness nearly killed me.  I know what it’s like to have to duck into the ladies’ room every hour or so at work to have a quick cry…having to sit in cafes with my back to the other customers, just so I wouldn’t have to see babies…not even being able to watch television because there are so many babies and children in the commercials…I now have two healthy, wonderful children (and no, I’m not saying which sex they are.  It’s irrelevant).  It’s a privilege and an honour to bring a little person into the world.  That’s it.  That’s all.

      Reply

    • katie says:

      07:58pm | 12/01/11

      A child is a gift of nature. Personally I feel that if you are that keen on a particular gender that you stress at ultrasounds and have years of grief, that’s an indication that you are trying to live through your kids in some way which is not a reason to have kids. And that isn’t good for anybody (especially when the kids turn 18 and can’t get out of there fast enough).

      Reply

    • Hmm says:

      06:00am | 13/01/11

      Yes they are a gift, but unless its YOU suffering the mental anguish you will never really know what it feels like.

    • Bitten says:

      11:15am | 13/01/11

      Yeah, and Katie’s point, Hmm, is that it is not about how YOU feel. Parenting is supposed to be about the innocent and utterly dependent CHILD, always, 100% of the time, that’s all there is to it. If YOU are unable to handle that, then YOU should not be having children. She’s spot on.

    • Sharon says:

      08:05pm | 12/01/11

      I have the US shows about Child Pagents and it the parents who are competing. the children are trying to please the parents who are preening over this whole show. It is not pleasent to see. It is sad to hope for a girl or boy and receive the other, BUT, if your child is happy and healthy be thankful with your gift.

      Reply

    • e-girl says:

      08:29pm | 12/01/11

      And what if the child turns out to be born with an intersex condition?  Or turns out to be transsexual, as I was? 

      Having a child is a gamble.  So much is out of your control, the only thing you can control is whether you provide a loving and supporting home to that child.

      Reply

    • Miss Jaded says:

      08:59pm | 12/01/11

      Having gone through IVF as I was not able to conceive naturally I was horrified that someone would intentionally terminate a pregnancy because it wasn’t the gender of choice. I have a beautiful child and not once did I care what gender that child was. Yes I too believed I would have two children a boy first and a girl second (so the little girl had a champion in the school yard and protector at the age of 18 when she hit the pubs!) but it was not to be. I honestly can’t comprehend why someone wouldn’t cherish the children they were given and insist on something they don’t have. I am sure her sons will feel so adored when they are old enough to fully understand her actions. I would love a son if I am lucky enough to get my second child - but if I am blessed with another girl I will thank my lucky stars each and every day.

      Reply

    • TB says:

      08:59pm | 12/01/11

      I have two boys and can’t have any more children…despite my utter desperation to have another. I am so sick of people asking me when I’m going to give my boys a baby sister, when I’m going to finish my family with a girl. So insensitive…what is this fixation with having a baby of a particular gender. I’d give almost anything (almost, because I’d never give my precious boys) to have another baby, of any gender. I’m so envious of this couple’s twin boys…I would have welcomed them into my family with loving, caring, wide open arms. So very sad. I know the utter devastation of wanting something with every fibre of your being, and not being able to have it….so I can kind of understand this couple’s desire for a baby girl…but nothing excuses their decision to abort their twin boys. They underwent IVF, they knew there was a risk of ending up with two boys, if they weren’t prepared to accept that risk and love those babies regardless of their gender they shouldn’t have gone ahead with it. I don’t think they should be allowed to try for more children until they have sorted out what are some very, very significant personal issues. No child should be born with a job to do.

      Reply

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      10:29pm | 12/01/11

      Right on the button, keep loving your sons as I am sure that they love you back

    • Jodie says:

      09:21pm | 12/01/11

      When I was pregnant with my first and went to the ultrasound, I quietly hoped it was a daughter, and indeed it was, but at the same time we found out she had a birth defect, and I forgot about what sex she was, and just wanted her to be alright (she is- after many years of treatment).  Then when I had my second child, I had a new perspective, I really didn’t care, as long as he/she was healthy.  He arrived (and is healthy), and is totally different to her, but absolutely the same as her also…he is unconditionally LOVED….If he had of been my first, I absolutely know I wouldn’t have cared if he was a boy, and I could have had 2, 3, 4 of him and would be happy.  Just as I would be happy if I had more daughters.  Unless there is a serious genetic condition, nature should decide for us what child we have, not a test tube or a petri dish. I cannot fathom aborting a child (or children) intentionally conceived - whether naturally or by IVF- on the basis of sex. The mother should sort herself out first before having any more children because to do what she has done shows a ruthlessness that will manifest itself in other equally awful ways over time.

      Reply

    • BD says:

      03:42pm | 14/01/11

      Jodie, I am pro choice but do find this absolutely appalling.  You make a very good point about the ruthlessness of the action, you really do, its something to consider here and the future of her existing children.  I wonder what else she or both parents really would be capable of.

    • rite of reply says:

      10:20pm | 12/01/11

      I don’t think all modern parents should be judged on the actions of a few. There are freaks at any time, and it just happens that sometimes those freaks have children.

      Reply

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      10:27pm | 12/01/11

      Dr. Mengele would have been at home with these people & the creepy abortionist Dr. that performed the abortion. Medical ethics in Australia are bankrupt! !

      Reply

    • Len says:

      10:29pm | 12/01/11

      I am utterly horrified that someone could destroy those two innocent lives whose only crime was to be the wrong sex. I was told I could never have children but at the age of 39 we were lucky enough to be blessed with a little girl. I wanted a boy, always wanted a boy but when she was born and they told me she was a girl. I loved her straight away, she was our miracle child, our precious little being.
      How can people be so shallow as to end two very precious lives?

      Reply

    • david says:

      10:34pm | 12/01/11

      Your children are not your children.
      They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
      They come through you but not from you,
      And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

      You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
      For they have their own thoughts.
      You may house their bodies but not their souls,
      For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
      which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
      You may strive to be like them,
      but seek not to make them like you.
      For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

      Khalil Gibran

      Reply

    • bubba says:

      10:52pm | 12/01/11

      it’s too late to complain about these parents. Any woman can have a child - any woman can abort a male thing that is not yet a child. this is the law in the lucky country.

      Now that the horse has bolted - we are trying to coerce it down a certain path that makes us all feel okay by being outraged about a woman pursuing her legal rights.

      If the unborn are not human - why would anyone who supports abortion have a problem. Abortion is about the mother being free to choose what happens to her body - not human life. Her reasons for taking control of the growth inside of her should be of no concern to anyone who supports a mother’s choice to an abortion.

      Were the twin boys human or not? Should our opinions be enough to stop a woman from exercising her freedom over her own body?

      You can’t have it both ways.

      Reply

    • Darren says:

      10:57pm | 12/01/11

      if you are capable of coping psychlogically with the fact that you can void the life an unborn children, can you really be trusted to cope with the inherent depression when you finally realise what you have done, regardless of gender. They’re not parents they are soul less animals who do not deserve to raise children because they’re expectations will never be met.

      Reply

    • jeninvic says:

      11:07pm | 12/01/11

      Something is very wrong, both with the parents decision and the fact that it was supported by the medical fraternity. I just cant fathom terminating embryos because of gender, and especially since these babies were IVF.

      Reply

    • Anna says:

      01:00am | 13/01/11

      I am just married, and nearly 30 - and all I get now are people asking me when the baby is coming, when will we make our family “whole”. It’s not going to happen - I can’t carry a child to full term. When I heard about that woman aborting her babies because of their gender I felt a white-hot anger. Then I started to cry.

      I would give my eye teeth for a baby of my own. I can’t comprehend the selfishness of someone who would do that. It might be cold of me and I should be more understanding, but I can’t understand.

      Reply

    • Steph says:

      03:28pm | 13/01/11

      Anna… this may sound stupid, or insensetive, but it’s really not meant to be.

      What about using a surrogate mother? I know it means you won’t have the joy of 9 months of developing your child inside you, but you would get a child that would be yours - using your egg and the sperm of your husband. It could be an option…

    • MumofTwo says:

      06:32pm | 13/01/11

      Oh please Steph. I know you are well meaning..but as an Ex-IVFer, the old “not meant to be” statement is like a knife to the heart and completely patronising and insensitive.

      As for the suggestion for surrogacy. Again, well intended, but the vital question remains WHO DOES SHE GET TO BE THE SURROGATE ? It is now ILLEGAL in NSW (even for those who choose to do it outside the country) and the laws in all other states pretty much stipulate that the surrogate must also be classified as infertile.

      Lastly- Anna. I’m so sorry for your pain and the loss of your dream. You are not cold..you are grieving yourself and have every right to cry over these peoples actions.

    • Annabelle says:

      10:28pm | 13/01/11

      Never say never, I was told similar. Took me 10 years but I did. So please don’t dispair, you’re still young, medicine still improves and even doctors get it wrong at time.

      Goodluck

    • PK - Aussie Expat in CH says:

      11:41pm | 13/01/11

      It’s like when someone told me “everything happens for a reason” when my husband was diagnosed with Cancer.

      After he got better, my father in law was also diagnosed with a different type of Cancer.

      And all I hear is “everything happens for a reason”. Funnily enough the people that say that, haven’t experienced serious illnesses. *sigh*

      Steph telling someone something “is not meant to be” is really hurtful. Especially if you’ve had children of your own. Maybe you are not intending to hurt Anna but can you for one second imagine how she feels?

    • RK says:

      07:06am | 14/01/11

      guys - I read Steph’s comment as her comment may sound stupid/offensive but is ‘not meant to’ (sound stupid).... not that having a baby isn’t meant to be…

    • Elphaba says:

      08:11am | 14/01/11

      @PK, or when people die, and some half-wit tells you ‘they’ve gone to a better place’.

      Telling that to someone who just had a relative or close friend die is not helpful.  Things don’t happen for a reason.  Shit just happens.  There’s no great mystery.

    • Alicia says:

      03:22pm | 14/01/11

      I am sorry Anna, but after reading the backlash against Steph’s comment i have to agree with her. Regardless of the cliche statement, having a child is what it is - it’s a male and female reproducing an offspring. If for some reason you cannot have children- that’s just the facts. It’s not nice, it’s heart breaking but still it’s the facts. I think if we can stop and accept these life roadblocks instead of desperately trying IVF and surrogacy maybe we wouldn’t get ourselves into these morally compromising situations i.e being able to access IVF $$$ until they get the gender they want. I’m not preaching that we shouldn’t allow IVF or surrogacy, I’m just giving my opinion that perhaps we need to try and accept that we can’t have everything . I realise it’s easy to say these things when I’m not the one desperate for a child nevertheless it’s still my opinion.

    • Susie says:

      01:01am | 13/01/11

      I wouldn’t want to have a boy. It’s my right to choose what sex my child is. The poor woman already has three sons doesn’t she? That with her husband is four males in a house…eeek ...a life of cleaning pee from the toilet floor

      Reply

    • Bilby says:

      09:59am | 13/01/11

      On what basis do you think you have the right to choose? Just because you think boys are yukky? Maybe when you’re all grown up you might feel differently.

    • Mr GG says:

      10:44am | 14/01/11

      Where did you get that Right???
      I think you will find you DONT have the right. you have right to kill your unborn baby but not to select anything about it. In case you missed the reason why this is in the news is because the courts “recently rejected the couple’s bid to choose the gender of their next child using IVF”
      And I will (and many other) will fight very hard to make sure you NEVER have that right.  If You cant accept what your given you should be given nothing.

    • fit-mama says:

      01:47am | 13/01/11

      What kind of psychological problems does this lady have if she is willing to abort her two sons just to get a daughter… I was secretly hoping for a boy when my daughter was born but when I developed PND, I was glad I had a daughter because on some level, I was still able to identify and bond with her… Its OK to be disappointed, to have depression and to genuinely struggle with motherhood, I just wish they had thought of the thousands of couples who can’t have children…

      Reply

    • Hmm says:

      05:40am | 13/01/11

      But your not in that situation, you dont know what state of mind they are in. I find it shallow that people find it necessary to make a social commentary on what someone did with HER OWN body.

      Reply

    • RK says:

      07:23am | 13/01/11

      A little short-sighted I think, Hmmm…  This wasn’t an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy - she wasn’t raped, the babies weren’t ill, it is a good time for them to have children, they want a child.  She deliberately got pregnant through IVF, conceived twins, aborted them and wants to get pregnant as soon as possible. She then agreed to be interviewed by the media about it, inviting social comment. 

      Yes, it’s ‘her body’, and I believe she has a right to make decisions about what happens to her. The question is, in her mental state (she admits it is unstable) should she be allowed to go through IVF again?  What impact will this notion of ‘replacement’ have on the girl child if she is born?  What message are they sending the boys they already have?  This is about far more than just ‘her body’ and what she does with it - seeing it only in that light is shallow.

    • Pleasure O'Reilly says:

      07:37am | 13/01/11

      I don’t care what she does to her own body, it’s a shame what she did to her own sons.
      As many have commented, they have LEARNED TO COPE with the disappointment of not getting the gender they would prefer - that is in their mental health interests. Hell, like many others, I’m having to cope with not being able to conceive at all -  can I just say I must have my way or I’ll go mental?

    • K says:

      08:42am | 13/01/11

      I get it, I really do. After suffering a miscarriage and then being told I would need to do IVF the anguish of so many events all in a short space of time gets to you, this doesnt even begin to cover the grief and guilt you feel after loosing a child. One person said to me it was my lifestyle (I had the occasional drink before being pregnant, which about the extent of my lifestyle vices). People are very quick to judge women and child bearing/rearing. I think many people introduce their own bias and morals- people need to remember not everyone shares another persons morals. A lot of comments have been negative towards this woman- her husband also assisted in the decision and also claims he has a burning desire for a daughter.

      I dont think this woman is a monster, like she is being painted. She is trying to wade through the grief of carrying a child to term and then having to say goodbye all too soon and trying to fill that void in what she can only see has the only way.

    • Laura says:

      07:39am | 13/01/11

      IVF is not cheap. the government picks up some, well a lot of the tab, so more infertile people can make use of it to make their dreams come true.

      now, i have no issues with people having the right to choose whether to keep a naturally conceived baby, whether i think that’s right or wrong, it is their choice.

      BUT… if you take the governments money (AKA MY TAXES) to have IVF to get pregnant, then I do have a problem with you aborting the child, or in this case, children for any reason other than protecting the life of the mother. They were your children, you went through an invasive and expensive procedure to fall pregnant with them, a procedure, so many wish they could afford, and you threw them away because they weren’t a girl. it’s disguting, and it makes me feel dirty that my hard earned salary/taxes were used to help you in this.

      There needs to be a law to stop IVF parents aborting unless the mothers health is at risk if the pregnancy proceeds. if you go to an IVF clinic, there is an understanding that you want a child, any child, that you are desperate to have one. This, just makes me want to vomit.

      Reply

    • John says:

      08:41am | 13/01/11

      Playing Devil’s Advocate.
      What if there’s a family history of breast cancer? What if they want to have a boy (granted males can get breast cancer, just incredibly rare), to avoid a potential issue?

      I agree with you in essence. I’m pro-choice in virtually every case, and I’ll admit that being pro-choice after an IVF is pretty tricky, but I’m sure there’s some circumstances where it’ll be an issue.

      I’m also sure that the ammount of abortions following an IVF will be so small as to not be a concern.

    • Ange says:

      08:22am | 13/01/11

      Why aren’t we banning these pageants? The fun police are quite willing to ban anything that has the remotest chance someone may get physically hurt but they don’t seem the least bit concerned with the psychological harm inflicted on these poor children - most of whom HATE every second of it. These children are disasters waiting to happen and the mothers are clearly on the wrong track but we’re not stopping them. Why? It’s disgusting.

      Reply

    • daniel says:

      08:27am | 13/01/11

      Why don’t we just come down to the real point of this, that gender selection should be legal in this country.
      If we weren’t so backwards, and we had this option, none of this would have happened.

      Reply

    • Bilby says:

      10:02am | 13/01/11

      As a genuine question… why should it be legal? Messing with this particular aspect of nature can’t have a happy ending, as we’re seeing in places that do practice sex selection. It’s far beyond the question of rights. It’s more about survival of society.

    • daniel says:

      10:39am | 13/01/11

      Because we don’t live in a society where sex selection is practised. Western society generally does not favour one sex over the other.
      Why would we leave it up to luck, and end up in a society where people are having 5+ boys in the desperate hope they will have a girl, OR, in this horrible scenario, aborting boys because they want a girl. That’s what denying people sex selection technology is leading to.
      There is no detrimental side effects or circumstances, yes, if this was practised in China or India, you’d have a problem, but we don’t live their, our laws are about us.
      Lastly, the argument of “messing with nature” is ignorant and specious,  nature is not a mystical force, it is not guiding us, or choosing for us, all you are doing with sex selection is removing the random chance aspect.

    • Bilby says:

      11:13am | 13/01/11

      daniel - “all you are doing with sex selection is removing the random chance aspect.”

      Exactly my point. The random chance aspect has served us well for millenia, resulting in a very even balance. I don’t know that we have any data to suggest that Western society does or doesn’t favour one gender over the other and while I admire your optimism, I have a very low opinion of people as a mob and would prefer to rely on the randomness that is nature.

    • daniel says:

      11:47am | 13/01/11

      Well if nature has served us well for millenia, then we might as well get rid of all medical and scientific advancements and go back to living in caves. We have scientific advancement to better our lives, this would better many, many hopeful parents lives. If you’re going to be against it, be against it for real reasons, such as if we were in China, I myself would argue against it because it would lead to a massive preference towards males. Anyway, there is a very recent study, I’m trying to find it, where they did a very wide sample size of UK citizens, and found the vast majority preferred even families, 1 boy 1 girl or some variation, and those that didn’t, tended to even out across the population.

    • Mr GG says:

      10:52am | 14/01/11

      OR people could stop being Selfish and Accept what life gives them. Seems more logical than than open the door to eugenics for a few metal defectives that cant cope with the realities of life and the fact that they might not get every single thing they wanted in life. Here is an Idea lets not Subsidise a Selfish Brat who thinks she can raise children yet is acting with the maturity level of a toddler because she hasn’t got the Toy she wants.

    • daniel says:

      09:21am | 17/01/11

      @Mr GG: Never accept any medical care, medicine, technology, burn youir house, and go live in nature and “just accept what life gave you” then.

    • Kyle says:

      08:36am | 13/01/11

      I have two gorgeous boys through two very difficult pregnancies, i am constantly amazed by people who ask when i am having another child, because it might be a girl! One woman even asked, “don’t you like girls?”!

      I am happy with what the universe gave my husband and I. I would not trade my boys for anything in the world.

      Toddlers and Tiaras is a sick and creepy show where the child is just a doll for the narcissistic mother to play with! As for gender selection forget it unless there is a medical reason such as a serious genetic illness for the child! IVF was developed to help people conceive who otherwise couldn’t NOT to satisfy the gender balance of a family!

      Reply

    • Meg says:

      08:46am | 13/01/11

      The thing that never seems to get mentioned in these stories, is what if they get their ‘girl’ that they want so desperately and she turns out to not fit their idea of what a ‘girl’ should be? What happens if they find themselves with a tomboy, a butch lesbian, or, god forbid, a transgender child? How much love and acceptance is a child who is any way different to the ‘norm’ going to get in that family?

      Reply

    • Bilby says:

      09:34am | 13/01/11

      Too true. Try as you might, you can’t change a kid from what they are. You can try and knock off the rough edges but in the end they come with certain things built in. Imagine if this girl didn’t like doing the things mummy likes.

      “Mummy I don’t want to go to dancing, I want to play Auskick with my brothers.”

      The rejection would be palpable.

    • amazed! says:

      09:01am | 13/01/11

      I was channel surfing on Austar the other day and came across that Toddlers and Tiaras show. What a sick piece of s#@t that was. It was just so wrong. Obviously made by paedophiles for paedophiles. And the mothers, all fat and as ugly as sin, they were the best excuse for the pill I’ve ever seen. Trying to turn 4 year old kids into adults with fake tans and bikini waxes, what the hell is that all about? I hope it is only an American phenomenon.

      Reply

    • Ange says:

      09:13am | 13/01/11

      ‘amazed’ - unfortunately this is not confined to the Americans. There are plenty of equally nutty Australian women who drag their screaming toddlers along the pageant circuit. It is sickening indeed.

    • Romli065 says:

      09:21am | 13/01/11

      OMG totally agree!  I’ve watched Toddlers and Tiaras a couple times and I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.  It was like watching a car crash - it’s awful but you just can’t stop watching.  That is some really scary viewing!  Those people are definitely not normal, doing that to their kids.  It’s sickening and disturbing.  Only in stupid, backward America.

    • biscuit says:

      10:31am | 14/01/11

      bikini waxes? Pretty sure 4 year olds wouldnt have anything to wax..

    • Andrew says:

      09:16am | 13/01/11

      Children are now seen as objects, not as a living human being. Kids are now ‘disposable’, and we treat them as any other object. That’s the only reason I can think of as to why it’s so easy for adults to behave the way they do towards them.

      Reply

    • Karl says:

      09:18am | 13/01/11

      This isn’t confined to the US.  The “toddlers in tiaras” pageants are up there with the practice of Australians giving their sprogs pretentious bogan names.  Luckily however it is only an extremely small but well publicised percentage.  I am still sick to the stomach after reading the story of a family on the IVF program that terminated a pregnancy of twin boys so they could have the daughter they so desperately wanted.  Perhaps so they can enter her into a tiara pageant.

      Reply

    • Jane says:

      09:44am | 13/01/11

      I love watching Toddlers and Tiaras.  I am so addicted, I can even tell you the name of the girl in the picture at the top of the story (Eden - and she’s done very well, and has even had a book published).

      Take it for what it is.  People are enthusiastic about things, and the parents are no different than many others.  The kids who don’t want to do it quickly leave the scene. 

      Most of the kids retire from the scene by the age of 7.

      Can’t wait for the next season.  And no, it’s not something I would put my kids in, but my 13 year old boy enjoys the show as much as me, and we both laugh at some of the ridiculous things that are said and done.  And we certainly now know a whole lot about spray tanning, fake eyelashes, and why Ultimate Supreme is what you’re aiming for!  LOL

      Reply

    • Andrew says:

      10:04am | 13/01/11

      Do you really think poor parenting (because that is what is at issue here: the particular variety of poor parenting in question is irrelevant) is solely a modern phenomenon? I don’t. In fact, I will go so far as to say that people who assume that whatever is going on at the time of their writing to be a modern phenomenon can’t be bothered even asking the question of themselves. It is a form of laziness. They have no interest in history. Human nature is what it always was.

      Reply

    • Bilby says:

      03:59pm | 13/01/11

      Christianity???? Wasn’t there something about killing all the first born? Let me google it… yep… there it is:

      Exodus:12:29-30 -  At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

    • Elphaba says:

      08:17am | 14/01/11

      @Steph and Bilby, I wonder if the Wiki article (bless it) is being a little general.  There are different forms of infanticide, like mothers smothering their kids because they don’t want them or they’re mentally unstable, and then child sacrifice, which has a religious connotation, to exposure, which is what the Chinese practiced.

      I think the definitions need to be a bit more specific.  ALL cultures would have engaged in infanticide at one point.  You’re telling me there’s not one Christian who might have smothered their child?  Bollocks.  But if Christians as a whole didn’t engage in child sacrifice (and I don’t know if they did or not), then yes, the argument would be plausible.

    • Bilby says:

      09:09am | 14/01/11

      I think infanticide as a cultural practice is what we’re talking about. I don’t think this has ever been part of Christian culture, but unfortunately Christians are stained by the unconscionable actions of their God. Ironic huh?

    • Elphaba says:

      09:40am | 14/01/11

      @Bilby, that’s what I thought, but I took a skim of the Wiki article and thought it was a bit unclear.  Infanticide is an umbrella term.

      As to Christianity (or any religion) and violence, not touching that with a 10 foot pole.  There’s no point.

    • Aaron says:

      10:20am | 13/01/11

      The only time abortion should be considered is when the mothers life is threatened by the pregnancy. I can understand why people would say abortion is ok in the case of rape, but that’s only making more victims out of the situation. We used to live in a society where kids were protected at all costs by parents, now we live in a society where we routinely kill them off because they’re inconvenient to our lives, the wrong sex or a bit too sick for our liking.
      If any parent thinks abortion is ok they should look at their kids and imagine somewhere there is a child just like there’s in a womans womb being killed because they weren’t what the parents wanted. Where along the journey have we lost a sense of responsibility to the most innocent of us all??
      There are people in this world who don’t deserve to be parents at all. This couple is a perfect example. If they kill off two boys simply because they were the wrong sex which is something the boys can’t control, how can we trust them with the kids they already have? What do they do if the kids throw a tantrum? Do they beat the living crap out of them?? I wouldn’t put it past them.

      Reply

    • K says:

      10:48am | 13/01/11

      @ Aaron, sorry but I wont feel guilty for a termination if there is a severe disability detected (thank god it wasnt). I would never be able to financially afford the type of a care some disabilities require without effecting the quality of life that child could have. For instance in some cases, I would have to stop working. Full stop, never to go back to care for this child full time. How am I supposed to provide for them if I cant even work? It isnt because the child is inconveinent to me, I just couldnt go through with it knowing that a) financially it would be a struggle and b) who looks after my child when I am gone? Your assumptions about their paretning of their other children is emotional obviously to you but probably a bit demonstrative to others.

    • Jodie says:

      11:38am | 13/01/11

      My mum fell pregnant with me out of wedlock, and my father wanted me aborted.  He didn’t win, and I am obviously quite happy about that - but in the end I was wanted by my mum and it was her right to choose.  Whilst I would never have an abortion myself, I feel that every woman has that right - absolutely if the woman was raped (I’m sorry, I can’t imagine having 50% genetic material of my rapist growing inside of me, and it’s a very strong woman who could), and particularly if the child was accidentally conceived or the baby was so sick that he/ she would grow up with absolutely no quality of life and in the end would be unwanted (and in my post above I talk about finding out my child had birth defects- and I had to make that call- we did go ahead because we financially and psychologically could cope).  But the decision to abort should never be taken lightly because to me it is putting out the spark before it has a chance to flame (that to me is the ethical dilemma, not the act of ‘terminating’ an embryo) as perhaps that embryo might have one day grown up and saved lives, ended wars or just simply loved and looked after someone special.  If you intentionally conceive a healthy child - and then are so ruthless as to terminate it on the basis of gender - then there is something seriously wrong.  Gender is not a birth defect and when I think of the IVF resources that are paid for by taxpayers and which have been used and wasted by this couple, it makes my blood boil.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:01pm | 13/01/11

      The thing is, if you ban abortion to all but the most extreme scenarios, then you drive the practice underground.  Banning abortion will not automatically make all women think “Gee, I can’t get an abortion, so I’ll give birth to the child and put it up for adoption.”  A woman who has set her mind on terminating a pregnancy will do it, at all costs and against all common sense.

      It is better to have a safe and legal option, than to drive it underground.  Sometimes human rights are ugly.  We need to let go of the things we cannot change.  If you are not involved in the situation (ie, it’s not your baby), then sure, you can disagree, but that’s about the extent of your involvement.

      I would say for the most part, abortion is a heartbreaking decision that isn’t come to lightly. What happened to basing our view of society on the majority, rather than the minority?

    • Bilby says:

      01:28pm | 13/01/11

      Elphaba - That’s what makes this such a mind bending topic. Before abortion was available, women put their lives at risk to procure one. Now if someone is prepared to do that, it seems that a caring society should look after them. On the other hand, a caring society gets upset if a dog is mistreated. Perhaps a developing human being deserves at least the respect that a dog gets. (I’m a dog lover… just using the analogy).

      A tough question with losers on both sides. Sometimes, even if a woman wins, she loses. You just never know how you’ll feel about something like this till it happens, and it’s a brave woman that can admit to herself, let alone others, that she made a mistake of this magnitude.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:58pm | 13/01/11

      @Bilby, regardless of how some people abuse the service, I still think it’s a valuable one.  There will always be arseholes.  We can’t start eliminating services just because of them.

      I don’t find it particularly mind-bending, just sad.

    • Bilby says:

      06:20pm | 14/01/11

      Elphaba - I’m not anti-abortion. I understand that there are circumstances that warrant the option. I’m just profoundly uncomfortable with the realities of the situation. When we tested our first kid (in utero), I was a little uncomfortable about the possibility of terminating the pregnancy, and where exactly the line would be drawn with respect to genetic abnormality or deformity. By the time we tested our second kid, thinking about it made me physically sick. When it’s not just academic it takes on a whole new meaning.

    • Cameron D says:

      10:37am | 13/01/11

      This always disgusts me when i hear of people who try to “Gender Pick” so to speak, i was adopted out at 3 months old (My biological mother had substance abuse as well as many other problems) and i was lucky enough to be raised by 2 loving people along with my younger sister who was also adopted, by people who desperately wanted a child and had been trying without natural success for years

      Why should it matter what the sex is? As long as the child is healthy you should be extremely grateful you can even conceive naturally or with IVF as some people can’t. There are so many people out there who would give their kidney just to have a child and yet these people are selfishly jumping up and down because they wanted a “girl”???? What is wrong with them????

      iIknow when i eventually become an uncle (As i have made the choice not to become a parent myself) i’ll love them regardless of gender.

      As for the pageants i caught an episode on “Arena/Lifestyle You” about a week ago and there was this one family that had flown from the UK to Texas for a paegeant (Both son and daughter competing) and the mother was saying how “I never push them into it” and yet in the next scene she’s pouting and carrying on because her daughter didn’t win a trophy!!!!! (Meanwhile she’d won about 2 others) that to me is parenting at its worst and i really feel for those kids!

      Yes i agree modern parenting certainly has lost it’s way

      Reply

    • Tara says:

      10:54am | 14/01/11

      You were three months old when you were adopted - lucky for you that you’ve had such a happy ending. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but why do you have a younger sister when your birth mother was obviously not a fit parent and it was known well before your sister was conceived(unless she was your twin)?
      My point is that anyone can have a child, that doesn’t mean that they should.

    • Beka says:

      10:00pm | 16/01/11

      Who says Cameron’s adopted sister was his biological sister?

    • Heather says:

      10:53am | 13/01/11

      Should be bloody illegal.  What is WRONG with the parents? Maybe seeing someone for their mental health would be a better thing to do then to do this sort of thing to their own kids.

      Reply

    • Concerned Aussie says:

      01:07pm | 13/01/11

      This couple could’nt care less what all you people think it’s their choice and it’s not illegal,  I would do the same life has no value these days anyway, just like if i was a vegetable I would want to be put down too. just because its not the mainstream doesn’t make it wrong. to hell with you all..

      Reply

    • Mr GG says:

      10:56am | 14/01/11

      “recently rejected the couple’s bid to choose the gender of their next child using IVF”
      It is illegal, they are fighting to make it legal. We are arguing against that. Don’t like it, well I don’t care I want the laws on this matter to stay as they are and I will Pursue my opinion.

    • JRM says:

      07:37am | 14/01/11

      Its not just parenting gone wrong. Its the whole gender equality thing. We may as well all be robots and swap test tubes.  The modern day relationship and lifestyle is gender ignorant.  Boring.

      Reply

    • Minerva says:

      02:22pm | 14/01/11

      We had three boys and then tried for a fourth, not because we wanted a girl but because we love being parents and wanted another child. I can honestly say that all we hoped for was that our fourth child was healthy and we consider ourselves fortunate and blessed to now have four healthy children.
      I was nauseated when I heard the parents had aborted twin boys. I am very sorry that they lost a daughter but there are no guarantees in life - sometimes children die, sometimes at birth, sometimes years later. As someone who conceives naturally, I do not get to pick and choose the gender of my children and I don’t feel that people who undergo IVF should be allowed to do so either.

      Reply

    • what parenting says:

      03:47pm | 14/01/11

      Title does not reflect on the story.
      Sorry, but the parenting loosing the plot?
      suggests to me that the children are not being properly supervised or have nbeen wrongly advised.
      what has it go to do with the type of child one brings in the world.

      Reply

    • Erica of Brisbane says:

      12:20pm | 15/01/11

      Be careful what you wish for! I never found out the sex of my children before they were born, and really didn’t mind what we were blessed with.  My youngest daughter was an absolute tomboy from the age of 4, and indistinguishable from her friends, who were all boys, until she got to about 13 years old. Pretty ribbons and makeup? Not a chance! For those who yearn for a daughter, they are not there to fulfil your wishes and needs, and each individual is precious. To place all your hopes and dreams upon the gender of your next child is to live life in the most narrow way possible.  Be grateful for everything you have.

      Reply

    • Kittyz says:

      04:12pm | 15/01/11

      This IVF couple may very well be in the same boat as many infertile couples, Will we ever be able to identify every possible genetic abnormaility or disease? Is there a combination of partners together that can ONLY have boys / girls or no children, because of genetic type or possibly the chance of introducing a new genetic condition if they were to sucessfully have a living girl.

      We these days play down the risks of childbirth and preganancy, we forget what the mortality rate used to be like for women during childbirth and what the infant death rate was. I have heard lately a few ladies losing children because doctors allow them to go two weeks over due date. Is this a medical fault by the doctors or what should ‘allowed’ to happen naturally (frankly going over my due date is actually a pretty scary thought).

      Back to point though, what we humans dont know is all the FACTS why infertility or the inability to carry fullterm or have particular sex of children happens, It scares me that with IVF we may be introducing things to the human race that ARE NOT meant to be there (or evolve as such) through allowing people who cannot concieve to do so through a tube. Does it worry anyone else??

      Reply

    • Nathan says:

      06:01pm | 15/01/11

      We shouldn’t have children to fulfill our own needs. We should have children when we are ready to fulfill their needs

      Reply

    • Ilana Leeds says:

      03:17am | 16/01/11

      B’H
      As someone who had a total of five failed IVF attempts and had my son through donor egg at 49 I feel incensed that some one would even consider aborting any healthy fetuses because of gender. I mourn the loss of two potential boys but am consoled partially by the fact that these two bitches would have been unworthy parents for them anyway.
      Disgusting. Thank G-D these two beautiful little souls were spared being brought up by two such women. Let’s have a return to Mums and Dads who are happy for any child and never mind the gender. Each child is a gift from G-D.

      Reply

    • Phil S says:

      01:17pm | 16/01/11

      I’m pro choice, and I believe that a woman should have the chance to abort an unplanned pregnancy if she wishes. I’ve seen friends have unplanned pregnancies and terminate them by doing drugs and drinking too much. While it would be good if people were sensible enough to not let this happen, it does, and so they, long with people with medical conditions, and rape victims, should have the choice.

      HOWEVER, if you have planned a pregnancy through IVF, you should not be allowed to abort unless there is a medical condition affecting the child, or a physically life threatening condition to the mother. A Psychological condition does not count as life threatening, even if she is currently suicidal. She should be able to overcome it with the proper therapy.

      To be honest, there probably should have been some sort of psychological screening before the IVF but anyway…

      Reply
 
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