Mind your language if you’re making a parse* at me

Allan Cox says:

08:14am | 22/07/09

My faith in the future has taken an upwards trend with your acknowledgment that ‘gen-yer’s’ need to avoid ‘grammer’ and learn grammar but I’ll bet you a bunch of parsley to a parsed phrase of Farsi that you use al-gee-bra everyday: If one cup of Mocca costs $5, what is the cost of two cups? notwithstanding any discounts that might be on offer.

BD says:

08:49am | 22/07/09

Lucy, have you heard of Muphry’s Law? Yes, Muphry, not Murphy. It states, more or less, that anybody who writes about poor grammar will inevitably make at least one grammatical error. In this case, it’s a matter of punctuation. We have random commas,  commas inside quotation marks rather than outside (perhaps you are American), hyphens where dashes should be, and no hyphens where hyphens should be. And why is the fist letter of University capitalised? Must do better.

rufus says:

09:05am | 22/07/09

Used to be I couldn’t even spell gramatishun no grammatishen but now I are one.

pete says:

09:09am | 22/07/09

Never mind the grammar.  Spelling, has anyone noticed the number of spelling mistakes in the media, both hardcopy and electronic?  I cringe when reading a paper or watching the news and i have not even mentioned advertising   uuuuugh

MC says:

09:23am | 22/07/09

*Ed’s note to self: must not tell Generation Y that grammar jokes are “cool”. They aren’t.

Lexi says:

09:31am | 22/07/09

Ha, @Allan Cox - I was thinking the same thing!

@BD, it was inevitable that you’d make a typo, too!  I did the same on a post last week, LOL.

And @pete, it’s too true that people working in ad agencies appear at times illiterate - or close to it… Great for younger generations who learn from all text types (and advertising is one).

One thing that helps with an understanding of the grammatical structure of your own language is to learn another.  When I learnt Italian at school, we would conjugate verbs and so on. 

BTW, in primary schools there is a return to earlier English teaching methods - I’ve taught Kindergarten children about verbs, nouns, adjectives, homophones and so on.  And they’re pretty bloody good at it! Now if only they could teach university students…

Loopy says:

09:34am | 22/07/09

Well said Lucy, although I suspect there are some Gen-Yers out there who would resent being lumped in with the great unwashed illiterate. I’m possibly one of them, finding myself often sending friends’ emails back with corrections, much to their delight. Like you, I also missed out on Grammar101 at primary school.
I actually thought our fearless leader Captain Rudd had already flagged the introduction of basic grammar back into the primary curriculum, but perhaps I heard this from an unreliable source - like a barista. Let’s hope it’s truly on the cards and that some of our Gen-Y colleagues learn how to use an apostrophe before we both turn into crotchety old spinsters. Good luck with the hunt for gramatically correct coffee.

Liz says:

09:37am | 22/07/09

Yes we all applaud good grammar,correct spelling but don’t forget language is a living,growing thing and idiomatic speech allows inconsistencies that some written language wouldn’t or shouldn’t. You’re a pedantic nerd who will become a pain to all around you..give the folk some latitude or you’ll find youself alone on Saturday night.

barry bailey says:

09:38am | 22/07/09

It’s now wonder you are single. You’re a snob who finds fault in everyone. Have a good hard look at yourself. Hopefully the gentleman concerned has a heart of gold and you have just missed out on an outstanding catch.

Jonathan says:

09:53am | 22/07/09

Any barista who uses a thermometer in their milk jug is not worthy of the name, no matter how hot they are.

Antonia says:

10:09am | 22/07/09

The subject matter is “music” to any word nerd, however I was taught never to start a sentence with and.

phyllis.stein says:

10:12am | 22/07/09

I correct grammar discreetly, and I try to explain why the alternative is better. Just throwing him the line gives him nothing to work with, no hint. Next time round he’s as likely to say “Dave and I was there,” in an effort to unconsciously avoid saying “Dave and me was there.” As for employers rejecting resumes with errors, they’d have to recognize them first.  And barry bailey you should hang your head in shame for such an unnecessary and unprovoked personal attack on a young woman who has had the good grace to publicly examine her instinctive response. Go to the back of the room.

Coxie says:

10:16am | 22/07/09

To all those ‘twitterers’, contemplate this: To conjugate, or not to conjugal-ate, how would you ‘pass’ that?

patterson says:

10:16am | 22/07/09

Unfortunately there are plenty of employers who do hire journos who don’t know the difference between it’s and its. In one instance canine made it online as k9.

Caroline Overington says:

10:19am | 22/07/09

That basic stepping stone schooling that older generations had to go through.

hmmm…. is that a sentence?

Dom says:

10:20am | 22/07/09

Pete, you can thank the declining rates of pay and increased workload of journalists for the amount of spelling mistakes creeping into major news publications, particularly websites. Writers these days are expected to churn out masses of copy with short deadlines, which means fact checking and sub-editing are being ignored in favour of getting the news up there first (even if its infactual, News.com.au).

It’s about time somebody acknowledged the declining standards of grammar. And hell, what’s bad about having good grammar? If we’re going to talk and write, we might as well do it right. Great work Lucy.

Nick P says:

10:24am | 22/07/09

Lucy,

You are not alone. I’m also a card carrying Gen Y and whilst no expert I too cringe at poor grammar. Don’t despair. There is support out there for you.

I have been a member of the Facebook group: ” If you can’t differentiate between “Your” and “You’re” you deserve to die” for several years now.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=2210671912.

There are many groups and blogs out there railing against the forces of poor grammar, but I fear it is a losing battle.

We must accept that the english language is evolving before our very eyes. The fight must go on, but we need to adapt and speak this new language too if we are to survive and thrive in this new age.

Spk 2 U l8r

Nick P

Julia says:

10:24am | 22/07/09

Oh Lucy, you’re toying with me. I was initially delighted to find a soul mate in the tiny and diminishing world of grammar Nazis, until I saw a flaw… I believe you asked us to name an employer who is going to hire a young graduate WHO doesn’t know the difference between ‘it’s’ and ‘its.’

ratter says:

10:24am | 22/07/09

At university we were required to learn Fowler’s Modern English useage and pass an examination on it. Since our Constitution (which may be “assumed” as Australia’s constitution and therefore requires capitalisation)  calls up this publication along with the Oxford as the basis of our language, all law, all of our contracts rely on it…...this seems reasonable.
English is a language that is alive and developing. The use of ” .........” in typed word, of sentences beginning with “But”, adjectives suffixed with “not” to invert their meaning may be viewed as prductive innovation.
But I reckon ya dont need too learn grama, if ya reed enuff books ya just pick it up.

iansand says:

10:26am | 22/07/09

Grammar doesn’t matter until it matters.  Then it really matters.

A properly constructed sentence is an aid to precise communication.  In most cases we can work out an intended meaning.  Unfortunately, sometimes we will be wrong and will not be in a position to seek clarification.  Accurate communication is a courtesy to your readers.

Jacinta says:

10:30am | 22/07/09

Just tell Video Hits - on the weekend they had a competition with requirements that you send “u’r name, address” etc… They abbreviated, yet even did that incorrectly!  My university degree in linguistics makes me shudder.  Oh, what NSG did for our souls.

Evie says:

10:30am | 22/07/09

I’m going to assume Barry Bailey’s comment was a well timed joke since I was about to comment that my dating standards include “proper use of apostrophes” as a compulsory pointer (I’m 23).

Campbell says:

10:31am | 22/07/09

It’s inevitable to have spelling and grammar mistakes in an article about grammar - Muphry’s Law, thanks BD - but it’s equally inevitable to have commenters being picky. A sign that proficient grammaticalness (sic) still exists somewhere!

Miss Speltt says:

10:33am | 22/07/09

“The barista might have been hot but I’m hoping there’s someone out there for me that can use prepositions properly as they proposition me.”

I’m about to make a “lucethought”.

Surely the correct way to write the above would be as follows:

“The barista might have been hot, but I’m hoping there’s someone out there for me WHO can use prepositions properly as they proposition me.”

Also, a bit earlier in the piece:

“Name me an employer who is going to hire a young graduate doesn’t know the difference between ‘it’s’ and ‘its.’”

It should read:

“Name me an employer who is going to hire a young graduate WHO doesn’t know the difference between ‘it’s’ and ‘its.’”

pg says:

10:34am | 22/07/09

My greatest achievement in life, is to have raised a son (17) and a daughter (21) who send grammatically correct SMS’s.

There are more of you out there than you think.

benough says:

10:35am | 22/07/09

You’re not alone being a Gen Y grammar Nazi Lucy. Hold your head up high! Plus a barista who goes to world bar and uses a thermometer? Sounds like you could easily aim higher

Sally says:

10:43am | 22/07/09

Just glad to see a decent gen y representing on the punch. Thank you!

Dom says:

10:44am | 22/07/09

pg, you’re opening a completely different can of worms when talking about grammatically correct text messages and emails! Are they the only places you can be grammatically incorrect and get away with it? Or should we strive to be true to the English language across all mediums?

lucethoughts says:

10:47am | 22/07/09

Thanks for the feedback.  I know it wasn’t perfect, but I think that was the point I was trying to make.  Though I know the basics of grammar I’m by no means perfect myself.
ps. Barry Bailey - Thanks for that, but I think you meant ‘no’ rather than ‘now’

SD says:

10:56am | 22/07/09

So long as the meaning isn’t ambiguous - then who cares?

Whilst “Dave and me” may sound abhorrent to some, it still accurately conveys the intended meaning. In everyday speech, I find this perfectly acceptable.

Different standards apply to professional writing and/ or communication.

I think the misuse of phrases such as “begs the question” are more problematic.

Dnee says:

11:05am | 22/07/09

i’m Gen Y too, but i don’t have a card. Should I be carrying a card?
Also, i hope Lucy is not one who corrects “me and Dave” in all instances.
I had a uni friend who would always, and rather rudely, publicly correct people on that front, even when she was incorrect.
i.e, it is correct to say “she was with me and Dave at the pub”, NOT “she was with Dave and I at the pub”.

Kate says:

11:08am | 22/07/09

My BF had a crush on Masterchef’s Justine until she said twice in one night ‘everythink’... he decided that was a deal breaker for him.

Tim Chapman says:

11:41am | 22/07/09

Yes, poor Lucy was doomed, as are all GenYers, when she sat down to post on grammar. (I have no idea if these sentences are grammatically correct, although I am doing my best).

Nonetheless, I share her passion for correct use of the English language and I occasionally amuse myself by reading my copy of Strunk and White’s ‘little book’ on grammar. Every GenYer should keep it at hand.

Grammar Nazis (literally) will also find this amusing:
‘Downfall of Grammar’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8fbrUjjivw

Jason says:

11:50am | 22/07/09

How about hyphenating 22-year-old? And focussed or focused? How about well-constructed, or card-carrying?

Sort your own ship out, lady.

ATH says:

11:53am | 22/07/09

I agree wholeheartedly. We were lucky to have gone to one of the finest schools in the state and I have nothing but the highest praise for our English teachers. However, grammar tended to fall into the assumed knowledge category and high school English was devoted to critical analysis of texts and themes. A simple solution would be to make grammar a compulsory component in Year 7 and 8, while 9-12 could focus on analysis.

On a personal note, the name didn’t register at first but I’m quite chuffed to see another ex-NSG from Class of ‘04 doing so well. Well done, Lucy.

Charles says:

12:05pm | 22/07/09

I interested to find out the identity of “the great unwashed illiterate” to whom @Loopy referred.

David says:

12:12pm | 22/07/09

Some time ago I was reviewing applications for an administrative assistant. The position involved a range of tasks including invoicing, diary management, draft letters, etc.

I decided, as a basic ‘first step’ in the vetting process, to exclude applications with obvious spelling and grammatical errors. I wasn’t requiring perfection, only marginally above satisfactory. Sadly, I ended up with no applications to review.

I then had the choice of re-advertising or reassessing the applications with a lower standard. I picked the former.

Isabel says:

12:13pm | 22/07/09

Subject: Ze Best language….English.               

                             

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English

will be the official language of the European Union rather than German,

which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that
English    
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as ‘Euro-English’.

In the first year, ‘s’ will replace the soft ‘c’. Sertainly, this will

make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard ‘c’ will be dropped in

favour of ‘k’. This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year

when the troublesome ‘ph’ will be replaced with ‘f’. This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent ‘e’ in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as

replasing ‘th’ with ‘z’ and ‘w’ with ‘v’.

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary ‘o’ kan be dropd from vords kontaining

‘ou’ and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu

understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in
ze  
forst plas.

If zis mad you smil, pleas pas on to oza pepl

Rob says:

12:29pm | 22/07/09

Can people stop talking about my Granma she’s been dead for years and doesn’t need all your analysis.

RT says:

12:53pm | 22/07/09

Isabel 11:13am: The philosopher Imannuel Kant, if watching from somewhere out of this life, would be pleased with the dropping of the hard ‘c’ in favour of ‘k’, wouldn’t he? In fact there would be a lot more kants about the place if those spelling reforms were adopted.

Aitch says:

01:03pm | 22/07/09

I like the mangling of the language. I’m glad Jeff Fenech didn’t declare, “I have great affection for all of you here tonight.” I’m pleased Sir Mick didn’t bemoan the fact he could not, for the life of him, feel any sense of satisfaction. I’m absolutely thrilled that Neil Armstrong fluffed his lines after stepping off the Eagle. I believe the nuance and idiosyncrasies of cultural sub-groups makes bad grammar deeply cool, rich and entertaining. I love hearing people speak fluent Bogan: I love the tangled, leering jabber of Cockney. I adore the stripped back, amputated, back-to-front chunks of dialogue you hear among many Afro-Americans. So why can’t you jez git yo ass down wit da program, Lucy?

Adam Dennis says:

01:10pm | 22/07/09

Dear Jason the Hyphenator: if you were concerned about ambiguity in the sentence you could certainly write “22 year-old”, but you’d never put a hyphen before ‘year’. Also, observe that hyphens have a lifecycle: 30-odd years ago, I would have had to write “life-cycle” on my “key-board”. Eventually new words evolve out of joined ones. So maybe it’ll be “22 yearold” in another 30 years.

I think the key point here, and one that I thank Lucy for demonstrating, is that discussing grammar is an important process. Being fascistic about it isn’t helpful unless you’re a writer, but we need to have a set of consistent rules that people understand. The mess of language in SMS, Twitter and other abbreviated environments has neither a consistent set of rules nor any sort of poetry. Both are important, I think. And while I was told never to start a sentence with ‘and’, I wilfully flout that advice for stylistic and prosaic reasons. It ain’t a rule.

Damn, but I enjoy this subject.

PH says:

01:13pm | 22/07/09

Peeple, peeple - we all hav our imperfecshuns, doent wee?

Even eye get Lucy’s pointe abut gramma - end eye dont’ mynd a missd coma, a ‘that’ insted ov ‘who’ - meybey we all kneed to wurk on our lenguige skils.

Let’s evrione go maek urselves a nyce cup of Bonox and haev a ly-down until this feverish spel passis.

Fanks agin Lucy,
Yors,

Pauline H

C says:

01:16pm | 22/07/09

Wow….. This far down the page and no-one picked up ‘job un-security’?

I’m hoping it was a deliberate effort.

I am currently the laughing stock of my Facebook friends for picking up ‘comftable’ in one of the Facebook applications.

So I did triple check, but feel free to pick up on any spelling or grammar faux pas’.

Razor says:

01:22pm | 22/07/09

I learnt how to learn at school.  I learnt how to think at uni.  I was taught how to write in the Army.

Chaos says:

01:31pm | 22/07/09

You should make it a priority that your new barista can explain what ‘detailed programmatic specificity’ is, then I imagine you will have no problems with his grammar

You he tells you, can you explain it to me?

Z3d1mu5 says:

01:39pm | 22/07/09

Language is evolutionary.

There is no such thing as “Proper English” outside of our own lifetimes otherwise we would all be speaking like ye olde Shakespeare.

Its not being slack or disrespectful, its just people moving on with the times and leaving the rest of us behind with the linguistical habits we were taught and brought up with.

In 200 years time some one will be corrected for using L0L instead of LOL.

Cyal8r,

jim fish says:

01:43pm | 22/07/09

Tory, BD is right, do you think university should have a cap? Wrong!

JimH says:

01:45pm | 22/07/09

Haiitch . . . oops Aitch . . . ain’t it great ye cin speak all them inglish lingos, but preface them all with some decently written English? there’s Bronx, Carribean, Indian, Scottish, Strine and many other variants of the mother tongue Sir Mick’s double negative notwithstanding, English is a dynamic and evolving creature. Latin isn’t. Wasn’t?  Let’s try to keep the original English pure, as a thing of beauty among all the others.

Spence says:

01:46pm | 22/07/09

Barry Bailey:  One word comes to mind. Tool.

My grammatical inefficiencies are the product of my own laziness. I was taught all the ‘proper wordy stuffs’ (tongue in cheek) throughout my primary school years but as that is now a good 16 or so years ago (cringe), I’m just glad when people actually understand what I am trying to say.

As for you, my beloved grammer Nazi, I will continue to roll my eyes when you correct my shortfalls. All the while secrectly taking note of my mistakes to hopefully avoid them the next time. Of course, all bets are off when alcohol and grammer collide.

PS: Great article. I look forward to the next installment!

Bozo says:

01:50pm | 22/07/09

I was asked to check on some videos for program instruction in my job recently.  They were online demonstrations of how a system process was conducted by users of the system.  They consisted of on-screen demonstrations with a voice-over.  Several times the words used, the spelling and particularly the placement of stress on certain words changed the apparent meaning of the instructions.  In one case it seemed to be saying the opposite of what I thought it should be saying.  Nobody else seemed to be worried about this.  Am I the only Nazi in my workplace?

Rebekah says:

02:03pm | 22/07/09

My pet hate is people who insist on capitalising common nouns eg University. Let’s face it, you’re a writer and he’s not and I consider un-security far more embarrassing than “dave and me were there..”

Josh says:

02:04pm | 22/07/09

I’m really just waiting for the “I’m the Gen Y who is sick of people writing as spokespeople for Gen Y” article. Week after week on The Punch it just seems to be people of Gen Y age either tarring their own generation with the one brush by either claiming to speak for us or by disassociating themselves from the stereotype by carrying on its legacy. Boring.

Zoe says:

02:15pm | 22/07/09

Oh Lucy, you’ve warmed my heart. I absolutely agree, with one of my main reasons being simply that I’ve developed some rather obsessive perfectionist ways and hate making mistakes. I want to blame these mistakes on my education. Hurrah for a scapegoat!
Also, for the record, I think it’s perfectly valid for anyone to make grammar and spelling mistakes in an article in which the author is discussing flaws in the education system responsible for providing thorough training in such matters. It’s simply an effective way of proving a point.

stephen says:

02:30pm | 22/07/09

What the hell’s a ‘grammar nazi’? 
(Someone who minds his/her possessives, but really wants to invade Poland)?
And please refer to the comment by Shane Evans.

Michael says:

03:23pm | 22/07/09

For every person who cares about grammar theres probably 20 who don’t and think your a tard for being anal about it. I’d ask you to excuse my language, but you all bring out my deepest apathy.

Vanessa says:

03:46pm | 22/07/09

pete at 8.09am - absolutely agree.  Has the print media sacked all of the proofreaders?

I LOVE reading Women’s Health magazine and value the information within.  However, I cringe when they use terms such as ‘kays’ instead of kilometres.  Kays is not a word.  Kays is a LAZY way to say kilometres and it should never be seen in print.
They also wrote, “protect your cans from cancer” - huh? This is a women’s magazine - since when do women refer to their breasts as ‘cans’?  Must have been a male writer, methinks.  One last point, the magazine is riddled with similes.  The odd simile is fine, but not in every article, please.  I could go on with notable examples.  Still, I do love reading the magazine, even though I cry out in pain when the English language is mangled.

Katie says:

03:48pm | 22/07/09

Lucy, I totally agree with what you wrote about.
I find it ridiculous and somewhat disadvantageous that some ‘academics’ who were writing our education syllabus 20 years ago decided that grammar was not an important thing to teach us. The year after I finished high school I went on exchange to Denmark. One day in my English class in Denmark we had to pull apart a sentence, like your mother used to do in her English lessons, and we had to say exactly what each word was (eg. Noun, verb). I was embarrassed that my 18-year-old Danish peers were so much more educated in the English grammar than I was. Being a mother tongue English speaker (and a straight A English student in high school in Qld) and getting trounced in grammar skills by kids who have only learnt English for eight years has got to be a reflection of how detrimental not learning grammar at school can be.

Kieran says:

03:53pm | 22/07/09

I humbly suggest to the author of this blog that she buy a copy of the Macquarie Dictionary and look up the word “colloquialism”.

Vanessa says:

03:54pm | 22/07/09

Someone wrote (and I can’t remember who it was), that you shouldn’t snigger at a person who is possibly less educated than yourself.  He gave the example of the fruit shop owner who has spelling mistakes or wayward apostrophes in their hand-written signs.  It got me thinking - yes, it is rude to feel superior to someone less educated.  So now I am a little more lenient. However, couldn’t a family member check the person’s work?  Anything that goes into print should be proofread by another person. Emails and blog posts are exempt - aren’t they?

BigAl says:

04:05pm | 22/07/09

As a reasonably well-educated baby boomer I can only applaud Lucy for her grammatical tenacity. Refreshing to say the least.

Lexi says:

04:09pm | 22/07/09

LOL why is it that any blog in which the writer claims to be a grammar nazi attracts sooooo much criticism from other grammar nazis?  An irony of our time?  The inner teacher in us all?  I mean, those of us who do aim to be grammar pedants.  And those of us who come from long lines of grammar pedants. *Sigh* How long ‘till another pedant finds fault with this post?

Vanessa says:

04:09pm | 22/07/09

Oh, and another comment, as this topic is a passion of mine.

Many moons ago I worked in a call centre and I had to give the guy on the other end of the phone an address.  I asked him if he had a pen and paper so he could write it down.  He hesitantly admitted to me that he couldn’t read or write.  It took all my strength to hold my composure and not cry while he was still on the phone.  He was embarrassed to tell me and I felt enormous sympathy for him.  I couldn’t understand how a person living in the 1990s could be illiterate.  It broke my heart.

I now teach children with learning difficulties because I do not want another child to go through the social problems that this man would have experienced in his life.  Parents - if your child cannot read by Year 2, there is something wrong and you need to seek urgent help.  If you leave it beyond Year 2, the child will have great difficulty in catching up to their peers and it will be detrimental to their continuing education.

nigel says:

04:45pm | 22/07/09

Biggest annoyances: its/it’s… they’re/there/their… compliment/complement… past/passed… than/then…

Not to mention mixing tenses. If there is something that gets me super-riled it was that.

And I give up on the number of times I have been asked where the cupboard is that doesn’t move. You know - the stationary cupboard.

P says:

04:53pm | 22/07/09

I’m the same.  I ventured out into the world of dating and was considering the prospect of going out with a grecian love god.  He was doing so well until he texted me and used ‘da’.  Sure, admittedly, I wasn’t going out with him for his stimulating coversation, but it was a mood killer and I just couldn’t get past it.

Kieran says:

04:54pm | 22/07/09

Grammar is important but it’s hardly the alpha and omega of text creation. Just as it’s important once you reach higher education to turn your boring algebraic formulas into deeper theories and experiments it is also important that writing must progress beyond p’s and q’s and provide insight into intangible concepts and emotions that make us uniquely human. If people find passion in this than they will, hopefully, seek to improve their craft whereas people who don’t will dedicate as much effort to writing as they want. No one should have the hubris to expect everyone to grasp and master every little tidbit of a constantly evolving and thoroughly bastardised language.

Kev says:

04:56pm | 22/07/09

I have long wondered about comments on several websites, especially lapses in spelling but also in grammar.  My spelling is not perfect but how do people get to know that their (not there)  grammar and syntax (usually the payment to a prostitute) is incorrect and what to do about it?

Justin says:

05:32pm | 22/07/09

Unfortunately, while I couldn’t agree more with the sentiment behind this article, the sad fact is that the example you present is fundamentally flawed. In fact, mistakes between “it’s” and “its” are exceedingly common in Australian media (I can hardly speak for those of other countries); more to the point, you assume that potential employers will be able to discern such grammatical mistakes, when I believe that such ability is becoming less and less widespread. Although, assuming it’s worse here than in the rest of the Anglosphere (an assumption I make without basis), Australians will certainly compete for employment at an increasing disadvantage overseas.

Tash says:

05:34pm | 22/07/09

@ Nigel - ditto! definitely / definately too!

For Gen Y, using correct grammar is hardly a priority. I too am 22, and no I wasn’t taught how to use grammar correctly by my English teacher; it was my year 11/12 German teacher.

Today, as a teacher myself, I can guarantee teaching grammar is a priority in planning my English curriculum. And, as my friends, family and colleagues are well aware, I too have difficulty controlling the urge to correct their errors.

Natalie T says:

06:30pm | 22/07/09

“...before we start having generations of English teachers who themselves don’t know the difference between a verb and an adverb.”
Umm, too late. I’m a high school English/History teacher. I wasn’t taught grammar at university, except very briefly, and can barely remember doing any when I was in high school. The education system has created a generation of teachers who can’t teach grammar effectively because they weren’t taught it themselves.

Death Adder says:

06:30pm | 22/07/09

A 22-year-old who doesn’t know how to use hyphens in compound nouns, unfortunately. But is she hot?

Pez says:

07:06pm | 22/07/09

You should never correct a person’s spoken English, unless you are married to them - and want a divorce.

Simon says:

07:07pm | 22/07/09

My pet peeve is when I see people write/type “alot” when they should be using “a lot”. It’s two separate words people! I think that is becoming such a common mistake these days, that within ten years english will have evolved to accommodate this mistake. (which will only serve to further infuriate me)

Oh and on a second note, as much as I am a grammar nazi myself, I also feel quite hypocritical when I correct people. Because I am certainly no saint myself when it comes to grammar. I too am equally prone to the odd mistake or two. Does anyone else feel like that? You want to correct other people’s mistakes, but at the same time, are worried because you will expose yourself to just as many.

Razor says:

07:10pm | 22/07/09

I learnt grammar by learning German.

Peter Thornton says:

07:44pm | 22/07/09

Being a grammar Nazi (gN) is so 2004! Plus, the average Gn always comes across as one who mines the depths of naffness in order to climb upon a high horse. Grammar miners? More like Grammar minors.

Peter T.

I need a new handle says:

07:54pm | 22/07/09

Language is abused by so many people and it is rightly disgusting. I love language but most admit that I still make mistakes with it’s and its. Bear in mind that English, for all its myriad rules taken from many other languages, is still considered one of the hardest languages in the world to learn due to these very rules! That said, the corruption of the language from lazy people does not help the situation one iota. That’s right Generation Y - I am talking to you and your generation group following.

Scott says:

09:33pm | 22/07/09

I used the word parse the other day to describe the act of reading through an industrial agreement to get a list of the allowances etc that our payroll needed to handle.

After asking around the office, my ops co-ord had to ‘fess up she had no idea what I was talking about.

She certainly didn’t understand the explanation about taking a sentence and deconstructing the parts of speech.

Sue says:

10:49pm | 22/07/09

Unless you are a teacher or a parent, correcting someone else’s grammar is just rude and patronising. There is something Gen Yers can learn - manners.

TheRighteousAvenger says:

12:14am | 23/07/09

Either it was poorly advertised or I’m travelling in the wrong spheres (mmm! 3D mothers!), but I was not adequately informed that it’s “Sweeping Generalisations Day”.

The members of Generation Y can be very polite (tut tut, Sue) just as those born pre-Generation Y can possess sub-par grammatical skills.

We can only assume writing with chalk and slate and/or on cave walls, as was the custom of old people, happens to bring about super grammatical powers.

Matt says:

08:08am | 23/07/09

What about those people that pronounce a “th” sound as an “f”?  This is the habit that drives me up the wall!  When I hear my co-worker say things like “fe fing wif fe”.  Translation - “the thing with the”.

andy says:

09:11am | 23/07/09

Miss Speltt,

I respectfully disagree with one of your corrections:

“Name me an employer who is going to hire a young graduate WHO doesn’t know the difference between ‘it’s’ and ‘its.’”

I believe, as the word ‘who’ has already being used in the sentence that it should read:

“Name me an employer who is going to hire a young graduate THAT doesn’t know the difference between ‘it’s’ and ‘its.’”

I often read younger peoples job applications, and I am shocked at how many people cannot spell or use correct grammar. I am not gramatically perfect myself by any means, but especially with spell and grammar checking avaiable these days, the number of basic mistakes is apalling.

July 22nd, 2009 at 09:33am

Kaia says:

10:16am | 23/07/09

I don’t know that I’d be willing to reject a possible date on the basis of grammar (my boyfriend can’t spell anything other than his own name correctly), but I agree with the education points. 
At 24, with 2 university degrees behind me, and having been educated in French, German and Italian, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve lamented my lack of grammar education.  I knew nouns, adjectives, and verbs, but the rest of it was a mystery.  Learning foreign languages was a huge shock - suddenly having to figure out adverbs, pronouns, perfect and preterite tenses etc.  I consider it great fortune that I’ve always been an avid reader, and have learned (or learnt?) good grammar through osmosis, and that my education in other languages has helped me put a name to the things I know. 

Still wouldn’t mind doing a course in English grammar though.  Just for a bit of fun.

Kaia says:

10:39am | 23/07/09

@Jason & Adam Dennis
(as well as anyone else who commented on the use of hyphens)

I seem to recall being taught that using hyphens was being phased out of most words, and was no longer the correct way to write.  For example, co-ordinate is simply supposed to be coordinate.  22 year old is acceptably written without hyphens at all, rather than as 22 year-old.  Well-being is accepted as wellbeing.  The rule I remember, and use daily, is that if you can read and pronounce it without hyphens, then join the words.  If the words don’t fit together, or make equal sense on their own, separate without a hyphen.  22 year old, for example, is separated by a space as you may sometimes change it to 22 years old.  The hyphen is only applicable when pluralising to 22 year-olds, as you need to be clear that ‘22,’ ‘year’ and ‘old’ are all one connected idea. 

I was also taught that punctuation should lie within quotation marks, as it applies to the preceding word, not the preceding item.  “I was so excited!” only makes sense with the exclamation mark inside, not outside, and thus the same rule applies to commas and full stops.

I’m not looking for an argument, but I am interested to find out if other people were also taught these rules, and how they compare to what was taught to older generations.

spider says:

10:42am | 23/07/09

I also belong to this granfalloon known as generation Y yet I didn’t need explanation of your pun in the headline.  In fact, I’m even clever enough to know that British English uses “learnt” while American English uses “learned”.  Big clap for me!  I don’t even have a degree!  I know lots of clever bunnies like me in the same age group.  Apologies if I sound bitter, but I’m a little tired of this idea that generation Y have been brought up as ignorant spoilt brats who can’t conjugate their verbs, even when it comes from someone in the same spuriously-based category.  Sure, some of them are, but in my experience the numbers don’t justify the negative stereotype.

  I find older people stuff up wtih their grammar and spelling just as easily as any 20-something.  The variance depends on something other than high school English curricula.  I’d suggest it’s to do with reading.  People who hate reading books tend to end up with pooer grammar and spelling than those who love books.  Hating books is not something I can fault people for (NB: it’s been OK to end sentences with prepositions since the 11th century), but hopefully the internet provides people with a wider range of reading material - not to mention search engines to find questions to more tricky technicalities in English like split infinitives and the correct use of “whom”. 

Therefore I’m a little more optimistic about the future with or without an overhaul of English curricula.  Perhaps the reason they dropped grammar from the syllabus in the first place was that it was boring students out of caring about English, damaging their English skills more than trying to foster their literacy in other ways.

Ted Tyro says:

12:21pm | 23/07/09

Lucy, you are magnificent and I am very attracted to you. Your grammar is my pleasure. Your article didn’t touch the possibility that, while poor grammar may reduce the chances of romantic involvement, good grammar may well attract you to like-minded people. I feel this phenomenon to a certain degree in my own relationship. My partner is an English teacher, and insists on deviating from the curriculum to get grammar and spelling into the heads of those thematically-driven students of hers. Oh, how I love it. She is from Singapore where they have TWO high school English courses – English language and English literature. One is technical in focus, the other thematic. Why hasn’t anyone here caught onto this?

Like yourself, I am a Gen Y-er and know all too well the shortcomings of our thematic English education, but love grammar nonetheless. I am the only person I know who uses proper grammar in SMSs. I have even, at times, referred to myself as a ‘grammarian’. That may not be a real word, but damn it, it’s grammatically appropriate.

Your story has touched my heart. Were I not already in a committed relationship, your grammar may well have begun something special between us.

Ames says:

12:21pm | 23/07/09

Aitch, I finks I is in love with you.

Marry me geez.

Jessie says:

12:31pm | 23/07/09

OMG! Does IM talk really annoy you as well? I am one of those people who hate bad spelling and grammer. Ok, so I am not perfect at my spelling and grammer, by no means, but I did pay some attention in school and I will correct people when they make the painfully simply mistakes. Like writing “their” when they really mean “they’re”, or simply saying “youse” or “youse guys”. “Youse” isn’t even a word, people! I am also one of those people that will type out an SMS word for word, not using a single IM abbreviation. I hate IM talk, it is making people bad spellers. “L8r” is not how to spell “later”.

I even refused to go out on a date with a guy because he wrote me a text message and every word in it had been abbreviated to IM speak. It was painful to say the least. You may think that sounds shallow, but I would have been correcting him on his grammer at every chance I got.

I know I have probably make some spelling and grammer mistakes in this post, but like I said, I am not perfect.

josh says:

12:45pm | 23/07/09

I debate that youse isn’t an accetable word. It is a plural of you. No one uses thou anymore in common speech and wiring. Words come and go in the English language so don’t get too hung up about it.

My wife hates, and I tend to agree about the lack of adverbs too. Why do people drop -ly from the end of words? It appears to be an American trait.

Prof (Peter Mackinlay) says:

01:11pm | 23/07/09

Just read your story about a barrista’s grammar in today’s (23/07) Geelong Advertiser, wherein they spelt your name ‘Carte’ (did they pay you for the article or just lift it?), and GOOD ON YOU! However I don’t think you were listening (mind on other things?). He would have said: “... me and Dave were there last Thursday”.
I totally agree with you and most of the comment posters about the importance of grammar and punctuation as an aid to the conveying of meanings with precision. It is essential where contracts and costs are involved, and most desirable elsewhere. Yes, English is a living language, but it should evolve to assist clarity of communication, not because someone can’t be bothered writing properly (lowest common dominator). In the 1950s a mis-placed comma in a New York Port Authority document cost them millions of dollars in revenue becaused it changed the meaning of the sentence.

Rebecca says:

01:40pm | 23/07/09

Let’s not forget the apostrophe and its incorrect usage.  I blame technology for people’s poor grammar and spelling - when people send text messages & emails and abbreviate of words.  There is also the reliance on the spelling and grammar check in Word.

James says:

02:24pm | 23/07/09

The english language is not fixed immutably in time and space.  How easy is it for you to read the Canterbury Tales in the original English of that period?  That should give you some idea how quickly English has changed from then to now.  Now add in all those people who use English as a second language and you can guarantee that pace of change is increasing.  Being over fifty I have noticed this first hand.  Saudi Arabia is a melting pot of peoples the world over.  When say a Thai wants to speak to a Pakistani in that environment you can almost guarantee that the language they use is English; or at least a version of.  English is the closest thing to a universal language that we have.  My grammar is not perfect.  Yours is probably out of date.  I think we should be trying for clarity, not perfection.

Kate says:

02:36pm | 23/07/09

I draw the line on grammer mistakes when they affect the readers ability to understand the meaning of sentence.  A poorly placed comma or incorrect tense can be misleading to the reader and change the underlying meaning of what the writer is trying to convey.  With that exception, I am fairly forgiving and tend to write English in a form particular to the situation.  For example, an sms or quick email to a friend will use shorthand and emoticons whereas when I’m preparing a professional report or resume I am more formal and particular with sentence structure.  I also find I often speak at or around the same level as those with whom I am conversing. I believe it helps break down barriers and allows me to communicate without seeming like a snob, particularly in my profession where I am often training people with varying education levels.  I am far from grammatically perfect and when in doubt I usually go with what ‘sounds’ correct rather than knowing the rules.  I remember being taught (I’m 29) verbs, nouns, adverbs and the like but was never great at remembering them. When it comes to spelling, I refuse to forgive spelling mistakes in job resumes, not because it indicates the applicant can’t spell, but because it indicates that they are too lazy to put in the most miniscule of efforts to ensure that the single document that represents them and their capabilities is correct.  I know I don’t want someone that lazy working for me.

Lily says:

03:53pm | 23/07/09

Lucy, you’re fantastic! I agree with you wholeheartedly. There is nothing worse than an illiterate Gen Y’er.

P.S - Jessie, it’s grammar…not grammer.

Friendless says:

04:29pm | 24/07/09

Lucy, ignore the ignoramus mob - nothing’s more attractive than taking pride in your work. Dump the boofy barista and find someone good enough for you. Also, dump half of your commenters.

davido says:

12:16am | 25/07/09

Wot generation am i again?

Deb says:

09:30am | 25/07/09

This is quite amusing! Those, who pride themselves on using the correct grammar, both written and verbal, are making mistakes.
I am sure there is a message in between those lines!
I have always felt that those who correct someone elses’ grammar in public, are in themselves committing a faux pas. In fact, my beloved grandmother would have stated ‘‘tis the height of bad manners!’
Whilst she was an avid follower of the ‘Queens English’, she was wise enough to note that most worthy people are judged by their actions, not by their grammar alone!
Check my mistakes!

Dave Sag says:

12:48pm | 27/07/09

Great article.  We employ a reasonable number of GenYs and, on the whole, their spelling, grammar and (possibly even more importantly) their ability to convert thoughts into well set out series of words, is often better than some older (than me, and I’m 43) management types who simply refuse to learn how to use “it’s” vs “its”, add grocers apostrophes (tempted to write apostrophe’s just to make the point there), or, my personal pet hate, use “I” when they should use “me” and vice-versa.  “He ran the document past my wife and I” is wrong, just wrong.  would you say “He ran the document past I”? No. People who make this mistake need to run off and read “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” by Anita Loos.

I’m a long standing member of this facebook group.  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2209553478&ref=ts “I judge you when you use poor grammar.”  Join us!

Typically however journalists are trained in the correct use of language.  It’s innumeracy that plagues the papers!  How on earth do we fix that?

Tijana J says:

12:08pm | 28/07/09

Ha! I get how the bad grammar thing is a turn-off. I do it too sometimes - it’s just an automatic revulsion; mindless, but uncalled for. The sad part is that makes me a hypocrite. I am amazed at the poor grammar that sometimes comes out of my mouth…but really I know it doesn’t matter, because if and when I need to, I can ‘turn it on’. My mum, also a grammar-Nazi, often scoffs and laughs at my ‘yobbo’ speech. So I throw a bit of English theory back at her – “it’s discourse,” I say. And so I can justify it. “It’s all about audience and purpose,” is what the English teachers out there would say. So that casual chat in a coffee shop, or a comment on a social networking site, is not necessarily a true representation of a person’s hold of the English language. They may just feel a bit too ‘posh’ and ‘proper’ to bother with it in mindless conversation…or maybe conversation is just more colourful and easy-flowing without it! And for all those people criticizing on commas and punctuation throughout this page – everyone does it differently; just as we all speak differently. I use my punctuation to show what I write exactly as I’d say it. I tend to pause a lot, and so get criticised for having too many commas - but that’s how i talk, so tough! There’s always a grey area… Read a little bit of literature by some of the most acclaimed writers and I’m sure you’ll find some punctuation you don’t agree with.

David says:

01:53pm | 28/07/09

The latest thing on news.com.au which annoys me is the headline such and such a company makes a “profit loss”.  I am no economist, but what is a profit loss?  Then I read the article that linked from the “profit loss” and it got worse.  The article said the company had posted a loss but the article said they had posted a pretty good profit, but less than the previous year.  Damn, what is a boy to do?

AFR says:

05:18pm | 28/07/09

Just don’t get me started with people who say “here, here”. That’s something you say to your dog.

Whitewall says:

07:43pm | 10/08/09

‘job *insecurity*’

Other than that, congratulations for flying the flag. Standards should be upheld!

Rebecca says:

11:39pm | 01/10/09

This article’s great! I loved the ‘purse’ and ‘preposition’ remarks. I’m also a Grammar Nazi, and people hate me for it; but it’s fine because I hate them for deciding various words require a plural (Heys!, Sorrys!) and thinking that saying ‘would of’ rather than ‘would’ve’ makes sense. I have no idea whether or not those examples are strictly limited to my peers (I’m 17), but it happens nonetheless.

When I was scrolling to the comment box I noticed that somebody linked a Facebook group; it just so happens that I also made one…

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111496480162

It’s titled “Stop Abusing The Word ‘Literally’!”

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