Marriage - the only thing that works better after 40 years

Elphaba says:

11:08am | 03/12/12

Absolutely.  I think a lot of couple expect some lightning moment where things are suddenly different after getting married, when if you’ve lived together, it’s pretty much same same.  Still got to pay the bills, walk the dog, clean the house and make time for one another.

I’m with you on the old-fashioned notion of marriage before kids.  If it was just me and partner and we were remaining kid free, I wouldn’t worry about being married.  But if he wanted kids, I would tell him I wanted a ring.  No wedding ceremony or any of that guff - just take me to the registry office and make it official.  Then I’ll carry all the progeny he wants.

Sounds fair.

JTO says:

11:13am | 03/12/12

Where getting married changed things for me was in the long term planning. So long as you’re not married, there’s no long term, just the present. The big things in life require sacrifice (kids, mortgage, that sort of thing). Why would you make sacrifices for someone that hasn’t made a commitment? So even after being together for 10 years, getting married changed things in a big way. The next 10 were heaps better I’ve gotta say, apart from a minor (ok huge) hiccup in the middle.

Pattem says:

11:23am | 03/12/12

@AdamC, you stated: “In this day and age, I do not think getting married would change much at all.”

So why are the Homosexual Lobby Groups lobbying for the right to marriage, if nothing is actually changed in a relationship by being married?

These groups obviously feel there is something worth fighting for that is inherit in marriage that isn’t available to them in Civil Unions or De Facto relationships.

JTO says:

11:37am | 03/12/12

Pattem - My sister’s partner was referred to as her “friend” by my dad, even though they’d been together for as long as my wife and I (20+ years). The fight for marriage equality in this case is about recognition and the right to be an equal part of society. Why should their relationship not be treated as equal to mine? There are plenty of childless married couples, so that doesn’t come into it.

Ally says:

12:04pm | 03/12/12

Agreed, AdamC. It would amaze me to find out there are couples that have gotten married without discussing the big issues, or that people think that their partner is magically going to change their mind on the big issues once they’re married.

I’m also of the same traditional mould of marriage before kids. This is probably a bit controversial, but in the event that I was unmarried and had a kid, it would be taking my last name until such time that we were married.

AdamC says:

12:24pm | 03/12/12

You’re not getting clucky now, are you, Elphaba?

JTO, I guess that depends on the relationship. There are certainly a lot of de facto relationships out there where the couple is committed to a future together.

Pattem, well, I guess not being able to get married, we haven’t figured out that it isn’t really a big deal. For gay activists, of course, it is more complicated. For them, gay marriage is really about ‘getting in the tent’, as it were.

Ally, I agree.

JTO says:

12:41pm | 03/12/12

AdamC - Of course it depends on the relationship. That’s the rule these days. Are you suggesting that there should be one paradigm for everyone? That’ll work. Sure it will. Because we’re all the same. Except me… I’m different.

Elphaba says:

12:49pm | 03/12/12

“You’re not getting clucky now, are you, Elphaba?”

Blechh, nope.  I’d rather have a dog than a kid.

I do have a date tomorrow night though.  He seems normal.  Not like the goob I went out with 2 weeks ago who was rather ungentlemanly at the door and then whom I had to let down gently… and who last week, texted me AGAIN… after I refused a second date.  I thought only women were supposed to be smothery with the non-stop contact…

Kika says:

12:58pm | 03/12/12

@Elphaba - Mine wanted to move in with me. I said I wanted a ring. I got the ring. Hahaha.

Philosopher says:

01:05pm | 03/12/12

Elphaba - sounds like you need a Doberman as a companion? That should cool ‘em down a bit.

Elphaba says:

01:23pm | 03/12/12

@Kika, yep, it’s all about compromise!  I think if both people are getting the security they need, that’s all that matters.  I’ve got no problem with families where the parents aren’t married, but for me, if kids were on the agenda, I’d want the piece of paper.

Pattem says:

01:52pm | 03/12/12

@JTO, and yet there are so many heterosexual couples who do not want the stigma or committment involved with marriage so they choose Civil Unions and/or De Facto relationships.  You don’t hear these people whingeing and whining about not having the same rights as married couples. 

And that’s because they do have the same rights, as does any couple, hetero or homosexual who choose these alternatives to Marriage.

Changes were made to the Family Law Act in 1999 to afford De Facto couples rights that had previously been exclusive to married couples.

Elphaba says:

01:53pm | 03/12/12

@Philosopher, I’ve got to stop being so damn awesome. :(

Philosopher says:

02:07pm | 03/12/12

hahahaha Elphaba, those poor men will be in therapy for ever.
Good luck with tomorrow’s Mr Normal. Just don’t bring up Punch’s favourite topics: politics and feminism.

JTO says:

02:14pm | 03/12/12

Pattem - Of course they don’t whine. With the full array of options available, they chose what best suited them. Pointing out that gay couples have access to the “other” options is the problem. They are not “other”. They are us.

What I don’t understand, so please enlighten me, is why should gay couples *not* get married if that’s what they want? How does it effect you? Serious question.

Elphaba - Not a doberman. Lovely dogs but thick as planks. A lot of men also find a woman with a big dog to be very attractive. It might scare the a’holes away though.

Elphaba says:

02:23pm | 03/12/12

@Philosopher, gawd no.  Light topics - hobbies, likes, dislikes, family, friends, etc etc

Pattem says:

03:15pm | 03/12/12

@JTO, sorry, I have not even used the word “other” in any of my posts, so what are you referring to?  De Facto and Civil Unions are not “other” options.  They are simply options!

That is like saying, there’s the chocolate ice-cream, and your other options are strawberry and vanilla.  Just because the chocolate ice-cream is the favourite or preferred flavour, doesn’t make the strawberry and vanilla any less of an option; they are still legitimite and totally delicious flavours.

You stated, “why should gay couples *not* get married if that’s what they want?”

Are you so sure that that is what “gays” want?  For example, there are a number of websites of gays lobbying against marriage, such as:  http://nogaymarriage.wordpress.com/

Or some quotes:

Or, as the Mail Online writer Andrew Pierce wonders: “Well, Mr Cameron, I am a Conservative and a homosexual, and I oppose gay marriage. Am I a bigot? And what about Alan Duncan, the first Conservative MP to come out as gay? Mr Duncan, the International Aid Minister who is in a civil partnership, is implacably opposed to gay marriage. So is Dr David Starkey, the celebrated historian, who is openly gay.”

Or, “In The Irish Times, Richard Waghorne, a self-identified gay commentator and researcher, argues that “marriage equality” is driven by an intolerant liberal faction. Moreover, it undermines our time-honoured traditions. “The reason,” he argues “for opposing the unnecessary elevation of civil partnerships to the notional status of marriage is that marriage then loses its nature as the one institution supported by society because it is the family form which on average gives a child the most advantageous upbringing.”

The actions of the Homosexual Lobby Groups do not necessarily speak for all homosexuals.  So you may want to rethink the notion that “gays just want to get married”, as a fundamentally accurate statement.

Nick says:

03:57pm | 03/12/12

I don’t think marriage is a prerequisite for kids etc…if you’re committed you’re committed.  We’re in our 40’s, never married, and we’ve got two lovely kids and numerous non-human members of our household, had joint finances well before that, bought and sold various home and investment properties etc, moved all over the world together for work, supported one another through various periods of unemployment, study, personal crisis and so forth, negotiated everything from our spending habits to our sex life etc etc blah blah.  Maybe if you’re in your early 20’s it makes a difference but if you’re older then I think it’s more about the life you’ve lived and want to live.

JTO says:

03:59pm | 03/12/12

Pattem - De facto and civil unions are “other” options simply because they are not marriage.

Your idea that not all gay couples want to get married is both obvious and irrelevant.

Finally, the beauty of a forum such as this is that the evidence remains. I never suggested that “gays” just want to get married, particularly as I wouldn’t personally use the word “gays”.

Some gay people do, and they should be able to. You have provided not a scrap of a suggestion as to why they shouldn’t. Please think about that.

Pattem says:

06:20pm | 03/12/12

@JTO, the latest Australia census Australia has 32,000 homosexual couples and 4.6 million heterosexual couples.  These 32 000 homosexual couples represent less than 0.7% of all couples and, because of the fluidity of their relationships, this does not necessarily indicate long-term commitment. Census data indicated that only about 1300 couples had felt strongly enough about their domestic situations to become ‘married’ overseas.

What this means is that only about 4% of homosexuals are even vaguely interested in same sex marriage.

If same-sex marriage is approved, how long will it be before the use of the terms Husband of Wife are outlawed, and we have to refer to our spouses as Partner 1 and Partner 2?

If you think that is merely hysteria, read this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115677/Dont-use-words-husband-wife-Coalitions-sex-wedding-reforms-axe-terms-official-documents.html

Going straight to hell for that one says:

10:54am | 03/12/12

I thought virgins on my wedding night was a good idea but unfortunately my wife didn’t agree and felt we should spend it together

Philosopher says:

12:40pm | 03/12/12

you can always pretend; you will find many Middle Eastern ‘doctors’ who are willing to make her a ‘virgin’ again for a small fee. They realise it often saves the life of the woman.

TheRealDave says:

11:33am | 03/12/12

No, you have people that couldn’t be arsed screwing things around after 40 years

Fiona says:

06:32pm | 03/12/12

So because my husband and I haven’t had children (he has 3 from his first marriage) we shouldn’t have gotten married? What a crock of shit. Our marriage is as valid as anyone else who chooses to have children. Our commitment to each other is as real as anyone’s. It is our statement to the world that we commit to each other.
And people are considered as living in a marriage-like relationship therefore get treated the same as those who are actually married for Centrelink Pension purposes. There’s more to judging a relationship than whether or not a couple cooks or cleans for each other.

Loxy says:

12:34pm | 03/12/12

Beautifully said!

Philosopher says:

12:46pm | 03/12/12

‘No one person can satisfy all your needs…’
I hear ya; that’s why I visit Roxanne every month
Just kidding!

Economist says:

01:28pm | 03/12/12

Well Philosopher it also, like in my case, pays to be more like Brad Pitt, that way the wife is happy to wake up next to you.  http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/tyson-found-pitt-in-bed-with-wife/story-fn907478-1226528486183

Philosopher says:

01:41pm | 03/12/12

Economist: I’d like to say I’m more of the Mike Tyson type, but who am I kidding? The only ears I have nibbled are my wife.

Black Dynamite says:

11:41am | 03/12/12

I love stories like this, congrats on your 3 years.

Black Dynamite.

The Huntress says:

03:00pm | 03/12/12

Thanks, Black Dynamite. I love our story too, I hope it generally stays that way

Philosopher says:

03:50pm | 03/12/12

@TheHuntress, is your second-last paragraph saying what I think it’s saying?

TheHuntress says:

05:31pm | 03/12/12

Ummm, not too sure Philosopher. Just that we have loyalty and trust in our relationship to allow each other to do things individually without cause for anger or jealousy. As far as I’m aware there has been no infidelity in our relationship (I think that’s what you might be getting at), but I do take the approach that if there has what I don’t know doesn’t hurt me.

AdamC says:

12:02pm | 03/12/12

Wow, that’s top marks for pessimism.

Maybe you were drinking too much? That may explain why you told her she was getting fat ...

Testfest says:

12:45pm | 03/12/12

@Pattem

That was some depressing reading.

Only your wife’s happiness matters? Her wellbeing is more important than yours?

Compromise does NOT mean “give her everything she wants, no matter what you think.” That’s no way to live, mate. Sooner or later all your years of repressed desires and frustrations are going to come out, and it won’t be pretty.

Your advice isn’t all bad (paraphrasing the Kennedy quote) and I take your point about not being selfish, but at some point you really do need to have a good look at what she is doing for the marriage too.

Based on the tiny amount of information you provided, I’m obviously not in possession of all the facts, but from your post it sounds very much like you are a doormat. I hope I’m wrong, but ask yourself this: of all the times you and your wife disagreed on something, how many times did she agree to do things your way? 50% of the time? Or is that number far, far less..?

Pattem says:

02:11pm | 03/12/12

@Testfest,  thanks for your concern

Depressing?  Far from it, mate.  I couldn’t be in a happier, more loving relationship.  I simply put my wife before myself.  Hey, both of us are as pigheaded as each other, so I am definitely no doormat.   She doesn’t always get what she wants.  I concede, she concedes, but in the main I probably compromise 60% of the time.  Not that we keep tabs on this!

My pleasure and reward comes from seeing my wife happy, and the boons that come forthwith; and these appease the “repressed desires and frustrations” you so eloquently alluded to. 

Pattem says:

02:34pm | 03/12/12

@ Testfest, when I “have a good look at what she is doing for the marriage too,” I always reach the same conclusion:

Gee I’m a lucky guy to have this woman as my wife!

She is such a hard-working, passionate, caring, sharing, level-headed, practical, principled woman, there is everything to like.  Her only foible would be her pigheadedness, but she acknowledges that.

:Sigh:

Philosopher says:

03:45pm | 03/12/12

don’t listen to Testfest Pattem, you sound like a fine fellow. Happy wife, happy life etc etc. Women pick up on a bloke’s self-confidence like a shark picks up blood molecules in the water… it can make one hell of a difference if you are willing to accommodate her, and vice versa. Now I’ll stop before I sound like a Hallmark Card, I prefer Sayings of Evil.

Pattem says:

04:16pm | 03/12/12

@Philosopher, thank you for your vote of confidence with the “Fine Fellow” line [chuffed]

I firmly believe that being a “good husband” is an important goal in life.  And in three months time I will add to that “being a good father”.

Hey, c’mon, there’s nothing wrong with the occasional Hallmark Moment.

andye says:

02:38pm | 03/12/12

@Economist: “Jealousy in a relationship is a disaster. I’ve known people jealous of the other partners attention whether it be from the children to friends and other family members. I’ve known women to become jealous of the relationship their husbands have with the mother in law.”

Jealousy is generally a sign of something else wrong with the person or the relationship. It may be a weakness in the jealous person, possibly a reflection of previous hurts. It can just be plain old paranoia. It can be about control.

It can also be a sign that your intuition is correct.

Without going into a long story, a relationship I was once in began to be characterised by my lack of trust and jealousy. I was slowly convinced that I was crazy and a total jerk over a long period. So I ignored my gut and felt terribly guilty for being so crazy.

It came to pass that I discovered that the truth went way further than I could have ever imagined and that my paranoid fantasies were in fact quite conservative in the light of the actual facts. If only I had realised that at the time and not been manipulated to question my own instincts and sanity! I would have been able to go and get on with my life sooner, instead of being led around like a fool.

The point being that in some cases jealousy and mistrust are actually the appropriate feelings to have, and are a sign you should leave.

Philosopher says:

04:12pm | 03/12/12

Andye: oh dear. I hope you got someone on the rebound, thus spreading your misery and anger?

Tabitha says:

02:57pm | 03/12/12

Oh yeah, and where are your “intelligent cavemen” today? Dead, that’s where. Stupid cavemen.

bec says:

05:42pm | 03/12/12

What about us white ladies who are in interracial marriages? Do we emasculate our husbands oriental style?

St. Michael says:

06:23pm | 03/12/12

What, as opposed to the five years or so it takes a “yellow” wife to castrate, emasculate, and manipulate the silly mid-life-crisis husband who’s gone to some godawful humid country to buy a sexual partner there?

Not that we’re generalising, mind.

Pattem says:

05:53pm | 03/12/12

Aargh, tragic.  Grandparents should back off and let parents be parents.  I have seen a number of Asian friends pull their hair out because of interfering grandparents.

I wish you patience and forebearance!