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Locking up every young crim might not be the answer

David Penberthy

by David Penberthy

14 Aug 05:44am

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Filed under: Crime, Pcyc, Police, Youth Crime

101 comments

When it comes to law and order policies, the simple and emphatic call to lock ‘em up is hard to beat in the popularity stakes. It is often the most appropriate reaction, too, whatever the response might be from our softer judges or more cosseted members of academia. Jail is a valid form of retribution by civil society towards those who behave in an uncivilised way. Locking people up often makes perfect sense, even though it doesn’t always happen.

Go directly to jail, and get better at breaking the law. Photo: Herald Sun

But at what point should society decide that law-breakers should be precluded from the community and locked away?  Should this hard-line approach extend to minors who have committed serious crimes, in a one-strike approach which puts them away in the first instance if they have done something bad?

Or should they be given a chance to duck jail, provided they sign on and complete a meaningful and rigorous anti-criminal behaviour program, under the gaze of a police officer?

The NSW Police Citizens Youth Clubs has just released some interesting and important research which shows that the community attitudes on incarceration are much more nuanced and considered than might be assumed to be the case. The research has at its centre a dramatic mismatch between spiralling rates of youth crime and the resources allocated by police management to working with young people at risk of becoming offenders.

The background to the research is the quite staggering rate of youth crime in NSW. At least one-third of all serious crimes in NSW are committed by people aged 10 to 19. That’s crimes such as assault, robbery, break and enter and car theft. At last week’s PCYC 2012 Youth Policing Conference, NSW Police Minister Mike Gallagher revealed in his speech that while many categories of crime were falling in NSW, crimes by young people had gone up by 18 per cent in the past 12 months.

Given all this you might expect that the NSW Police Force would be doing everything it can to allocate more resources to interventionist strategies to get in the faces of young people and steer them away from a life of crime. The reverse is the case. Be it for reasons of funding, resource allocation, or a desire to meet arrest rates rather than working on longer-term prevention strategies, just over 1.5 of every 100 officers are directly involved in working with young people.

In a force comprising 16,000 officers, 127 police work in youth command, 80 as youth liaison officers, 40 as school liaison officers, and three as school safety and incident response officers. Obviously more police will come into contact with young people incidentally in the course of their daily work but in terms of full-time dedication to the task of youth policing, 1.5 out of 100 is a pretty meagre batting average. And for many of the police who do some into contact with young people – when they have just broken the law – they are already so well advanced on the path of criminality that any form of intervention is probably too late.

There is a significant gulf between what the public perceives to be the job of police, and the job the police are actually doing, with 75 per cent of people saying that at least 10 of every 100 officers should be involved in youth policing. A further 79% stated that police should be working with school principals to deal with behaviour problems and truanting, while a comprehensive 98 per cent said frontline police resources should be devoted to educating young people in schools about the types and dangers of criminal behaviour.

The most interesting finding from the PCYC survey is that 80 per cent of people believe the priority for police should be diverting young offenders from re-offending rather than putting them into court. This figure surprised me, I thought it would have been lower, and that the “lock ‘em up” sentiment would prove stronger. But the proviso appears to be that the public will support diversion as long as the cops are involved, rather than leaving the process to a group of social workers.

PCYC chief executive officer Chris Gardiner points to the success at the PCYC in Redfern where the local area commander his junior officers are now spending three mornings a week boxing with local kids who were formerly involved in crime. The crime rate in Redfern has come down and much of it is due to the “work” of police in doing something as simple as exercising with young kids – the kind of thing which many in the police hierarchy probably don’t regard as work at all, because they are under so much pressure to make sure that the crime rate in their Local Area Command isn’t outstripping the neighbouring LAC.

Gardiner says there needs to be a fundamental shift in the way police management approaches the issue of youth crime.

“You can call it tough sympathy or prudent compassion, where the police try prevention first, then diversion,” he says. “Arresting people shouldn’t be the only way.”

Gardiner says that detention should be an option only when all else is failed – but that things are less likely to fail, as the Redfern example shows, where police have contact with young people before their lives go off the rails. One thing is for sure, the best way to teach fledgling criminals to become career criminals is to lock them up early with those who already have made a career out of it. 

Most commented

101 comments

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    • Queensland Observer says:

      06:28am | 14/08/12

      The best way to prevent kids from committing adult crimes in the future is to ensure early on in life they understand consequences to actions. This means the reintroduction of corporal punishment at schools. I know the bleeding hearts will howl bloody murder, but the rate of youth crime in this country warrants drastic action - and a quick and sharp hit across the hand with a cane at school, is far preferable to an alternative criminal future - being tossed in jail alongside hardened offenders, or even worse, allowing the consequences of their actions - dead or injured innocent victims, to continue.

      As for the existing young criminals of today, the ones who assault, kinghit, rape. murder, steal? They have chosen to perform the adult crime, then they have to bear the adult consequence. Otherwise they will believe there is no consequence to their actions, and they will feel free to keep offending. Without rules we have anarchy, and these kids seem to think that no rules apply to them.

      Reply

    • M says:

      07:05am | 14/08/12

      I disagree, physical punishment should be left up to the discretion of the parent, it should never be put in anyone else’s hands. There’s too much potential for abuse from teachers with a chip on their shoulder. Besides, the world has moved on since the 60’s. If you hit a child now I imagine they’d be likely to hit you back!

      Prevention is always better than cure, so I can only see good coming from having the police interact with the community this way. Indeed, there should be more of it not only for the benefit of the kids, but also for members of the police force. They are indoctrinated into a rigorous system and are sheltered from the community and community attitudes, the more they interact with the public they serve the better imo.

    • Little Joe says:

      07:08am | 14/08/12

      The consequences of their actions??

      In the financial sense it is better to reward violent crime!!!

      If someone commits a crime and is sent to jail for 10-years, at $100K/annum, it costs society $1,000,000.  It would be cheaper and more effective to buy them a $500,000 house and say that it is theirs as long as they behave as a good citizen should.

    • Nathan says:

      07:17am | 14/08/12

      Bleeding harts or decisions based on facts? Giving someone the cane is hardly going to help with dangerous crimes that is just not logical, it was seen as a badge of honour and was ineffective. Taking at risk youths and showing them around jails also proven not to work, this is not perception it has been researched.

      If you don’t think handling these children or dangerous youths in alternative way is a bad idea why has Father Chris Riley been so successful with street kids. Your ideas have already been proven to be failures. Seriously the cane will stop violent offenders what universe do you live in?

      Please refrain from the back in our day there where no criminals and everyone respected the elderly BS.

    • Mark says:

      09:18am | 14/08/12

      I think teachers should be trusted with physical punishment. They should be taught subjects on it at university. After all, we give just about anybody a gun and baton after 6 months in the academy.

    • MarkS says:

      10:01am | 14/08/12

      Juveniles are juvenile, they react differently then both children & adults. Big enough to be dangerous, without the self control & knowledge to make reasonable decisions.

      Peer pressure is their main driving force. Rebellion against their parent’s values is a way of moving from childhood to adulthood, in making their own minds up about the world & their values. 

      Not being children they feel the strictures on their actions & resent them, this combined with peers egging each other on is behind much juvenile crime. Once they get away with it, they feel empowered & gain status in their social group, we are on the way to creating a criminal adult.

      Therefore even small crimes should be punished. But the jail is the wrong sort of punishment. What we need is something that is humiliating, shaming & public, that lowers them in the eyes of their peer group.

      For misdemeanours, having to dress in some silly outfit, say lime green & pink striped overalls with a white nappy & pick up rubbish under supervision. For most felonies, I am minded to follow Singapore, public caning.

      Combine this with diversion programs, programs that hopefully both educate & take up time. Reinforcing the message that if you act as untrustworthy children then that is how you will be treated. Your time is not yours to allocate as you wish.

    • Queensland Observer says:

      10:32am | 14/08/12

      From my recollection, the teacher never applied the cane - it was applied by the headmaster of the school, ie someone who could look at the situation dispassionately and without emotion. I think a teacher (who might well be frustrated with a child’s disobedience or at his or her wit’s end) would not be a good judge for meteing out punishment.

    • Michael H says:

      10:50am | 14/08/12

      - Directed at Queensland Observer

      How insightful, you mean to tell me that throughout the course of a 50 year debate on the correct prevention methods of youth crime, you’ve been sitting on the answer. You must truly be an amazingly intelligent person.

    • Michael H says:

      10:50am | 14/08/12

      - Directed at Queensland Observer

      How insightful, you mean to tell me that throughout the course of a 50 year debate on the correct prevention methods of youth crime, you’ve been sitting on the answer. You must truly be an amazingly intelligent person.

    • I, Claudia says:

      11:38am | 14/08/12

      My father grew up with corporal punishment in the 1950s, but it didn’t stop him from developing Antisocial Personality Disorder.

    • Michael says:

      01:46pm | 14/08/12

      To Queensland Observer… re: never the teacher?? Not at my school. Growing up it was always the teacher that gave the cane. If someone played up, they were marched to the front of the class and smashed with the cane in front of other kids. This was early 1980s. This was at a private (not elite) boys school in Brisbane. I can’t comment on whether it was a good or bad thing to do, but I don’t think of any of us turned out as worse citizens for it.

    • andye says:

      07:03pm | 14/08/12

      Community. That is the answer. I think a lot of older conservatives understand this, but they try to shoe-horn their own outdated community on the whole shebang. Family Values! Church! Marriage! (Not Gay, That Is!)

      I don’t think a one-size-fits-all solution is the answer.

      The Internet does allow a lot of groups to meet up that would otherwise struggle. As parents of small kids we should be meeting up in local groups to play and discuss. Children and parents should work together to form the kinds of communities that might form organically in a village. Sort of… ad-hoc communities, I guess.

      As children get older, they should be able to express themselves and I think parents should encourage them to connect with groups that interest them. If a child is in a poor socio-economic group, they might not normally have opportunities to interact with peers outside their local area.

      I think that a lot of kids with active minds in poor areas that ended up committing crimes might have otherwise put that energy to better uses if they had the opportunity to do so and perhaps better examples.

      I think encouraging communities across our disjointed and (especially in urban areas) lonely is one positive step that could be made. Communities bring with them support systems and rewards that are missing in the facebook age.

    • Little Joe says:

      06:36am | 14/08/12

      It is a very sad situation where children not only believe that they are entitled to assault people, steal and destroy people’s property.

      All of this has stemmed from the diabolical left wing socialist art students who became Social Workers and believed that we “got it wrong” and changed the rules .... who thought that giving children liberties and freedoms and choices was a great thing .... who were too young and too ignorant of the real world to understand the consequences of these changes.

      Of course this was supported by the diabolical left wing socialist art students who became Child Psychologists and the failures who became Teachers to get an income.

      These imbeciles have combined to produce a denigrated society of fear and loathing, and produced a generation that comprises a significant number of incapable frustrated misfits that have low communication skills, zero-education, are violent and have no self control.

      Reply

    • M says:

      08:18am | 14/08/12

      Re the social worker thing, completely agree. We are now dealing with the outcomes of touchy feely teaching.

    • PsychoHyena says:

      10:26am | 14/08/12

      @Little Joe and of course the whole corporal punishment was such a great teacher… teaching children that whenever someone does something wrong by you it is okay to respond with violence.

    • gobsmack says:

      11:39am | 14/08/12

      I thought is came from the right wing’s emphasis on the virtue of material acquisition, the supremacy of the individual and the “greed is good” ethos.

    • M says:

      12:17pm | 14/08/12

      Are you high, gobsmack?

    • Jack says:

      03:39pm | 14/08/12

      ahaha. ‘Diabolical left wing socialist art students’? You are priceless.

      Did a dude in a John Butler Trio tshirt cut you off in your Volvo this morning?  Some hippie steal your girlfriend? Or are conservatives really this paranoid about REDSES UNDER THE BEDSES!@

    • thatmosis says:

      06:54am | 14/08/12

      I’m sorry but to me there are laws that must be obeyed otherwise society will sink into the abyss. Laws that mean that anyone, no matter their age should be punished to the full extent of the law.
        For to long we have had a revolving door policy for young offenders and very inadequate punishments metered out by our courts for crimes against society . The Justice System seems tilted towards protecting the criminal instead of justice for the victim or the victims families. Some of the sentences that have been handed down for killing someone with a vehicle whilst under the influence of alcohol or drugs makes one wonder if it is all worth the trouble to even take some people to court and the number of young people who get a slap on the wrist and no conviction recorded for crimes that should carry a minimum sentence of time in jail makes one wonder where is the Justice really.
        The old adage of “do the crime and do the time” should be bought into sharp focus with the young told of the consequences of having a criminal record in relation to finding good employment and the prospect that the next time it would mean even further time behind bars.
        The bleeding hearts will no doubt get on their high horses and disagree but most people that I speak to agree that Truth in Sentencing has a long way to go to meet societies expectations.

      Reply

    • MsElenath says:

      11:05am | 14/08/12

      Yes because staunchly supporting ‘do the crime, pay the time’ stops the revolving door . . .oh wait, except it doesn’t.

      This isn’t about bleeding hearts or any other delightfully overused euphemisms you can find to describe people who do not share your feelings, this is about an ineffective system that is CREATING criminals.

      Taking a child (usually from a no so perfect home environment) and sticking them in a Juvenile facility does nothing other than add to the problem. They feel even more isolated from society and are therefore less likely to develop INTO society, it is purely logical.

      Crimes must be punished, this is true, for every action there is a re-action. What needs serious overhauling is our facilities both juvenile and adult.

      The system does almost nothing other than teach people how to survive within the system, in a ‘look out for number one’ mentality that leads people on the never ending round-about of the criminal system.

      You can check in any time you like but you can never leave.

    • Jack says:

      03:24pm | 14/08/12

      Wait, so we have a problem with young people making a mistake early and then being pushed into a continued life of crime… and your solution is to make sure they have a criminal record and can’t find ‘good employment’ in the future?

      You really thought that through. But tell us more about these ‘high horses’, ‘bleeding hearts’ and maybe something about ‘ivory tower latte sipping inner city liberal chardonnay socialist greenie leftie commie nazis’.

    • thatmosis says:

      08:46pm | 14/08/12

      Gee Jack wish I’d thought of that one “‘ivory tower latte sipping inner city liberal chardonnay socialist greenie leftie commie nazis’. Is that a self portrait or just an observance and can I borrow it for another time. What are we supposed to do, let those young offenders go free, which is virtually what some people are saying. If they do the crime then they do the time, its simple and it may not work but it would make a whole lot of people feel safer knowing these clowns are locked up.
        If it ruins their lives then so be it they should have thought of that before breaking the law. Its just to easy now for the young people of today to thumb their collective noses at authority with no chance of paying the piper on the horizon. I prefer to live in a society where I know that those responsible for crime are suitably punished and if that means locking them up then so be it.
        The old chestnut about a child from a broken home etc etc is once again trotted out as a defence against locking them up but its not everyone from a broken home that turns to crime and I know because I am from a broken home and didn’t have to resort to crime, I served my country in the Army, built my own business and then retired without once having to resort to using my broken home as an excuse so please don’t patronise me with these old wives tales.
        Until there is a better way of dealing with juvenile crime then we are stuck with jail time or letting them walk which seems to be the case in a vast majority of cases.

    • ronny jonny says:

      07:01am | 14/08/12

      We already have the softly softly approach, have had it for decades. It doesn’t work. The only thing my mates and I as teenagers, were scared of when it came to the police was the possiblity of getting a beating down at the station. Counseling, community work, suspended sentences, even being locked up in a youth training center were no deterrant at all. I was a relativley good boy but I had some very nutty mates who recieved all these “punishments”. To get to the point where they actually lock you up, even in a youth center, you will have had many, many chances and warnings. The lesson from all these chances is that there are no consequences, do your community service or whatever, tell them what they want to hear and you are free to go about your business.
      When the do gooders emasculated the police force and took away the ability of the local copper to give trouble makers a good hiding they sowed the seeds of the crop we are now reaping. No corporal punishment, no discipline, no boundaries and people wonder why we have all this violence in our community. Ever read Lord of the Flies?

      Reply

    • I, Claudia says:

      11:41am | 14/08/12

      Wow! There was no crime at all prior to the 1950s? Awesome.

    • ronny jonny says:

      02:08pm | 14/08/12

      Of course there was, but it was different to what we are seeing now. Young people got drunk and into fights but the level of viciousness was nothing like we see every weekend on our streets today. All the same crimes we have now were committed then but they were a rarity, the widespread out in the open nastiness that goes on today is completely different. The absolute disrespect for authority amongst the general community we have now was confined to the fringes of society then. I’m not saying life was better in the good old days, far from it but something has gone seriously wrong. Maybe I am confusing cause and effect but the increasing liberalisation of our country has been accompanied by increasing levels of aggression and violence. As a small example, it is perfectly acceptable to tell a police officer to “eff off” now, right to their face. You wouldn’t have dared do that when I was a teenager. I don’t think it’s even a chargeable offence anymore.

    • Jack says:

      03:50pm | 14/08/12

      Police Brutality: a panacea for crime.

      Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    • James D says:

      07:03am | 14/08/12

      Im sorry but what? The best way to prevent criminals who initiate violence against people is to first initiate violence against them? Do you recognise how little sense that makes?

      Reply

    • M says:

      08:16am | 14/08/12

      You don’t understand boxing do you?

    • MarkS says:

      10:32am | 14/08/12

      @James D
      It makes lots of sense; that you cannot see it means you live in a fantasy world.

    • David says:

      01:03pm | 14/08/12

      It makes perfect sense, it may not be logical but authority needs to be respected, you respect something you fear. Adolescents need to respect authority again, it is shame the only way that seems to work is physically.  Currently if someone at school gets in a fight they may get a letter sent home, get a few detentions and have to talk to the counsellor, why would you even think twice about starting a fight with someone? Through fear of getting the cane for your lack of respect I’m sure there would be a lot of second thoughts about starting the fight. Because of that fear you never get into a fight at school, so you are less likely to be drunk one night when you are 18 and throw a punch at someone because you have never done it before. I know I wouldn’t slap a tiger across the face because I respect the animal, through fear of getting my arm ripped off.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:29am | 14/08/12

      There is a significant gulf between what the public perceives to be the job of police, and the job the police are actually doing…

      I think that’s your problem there, Penbo.  Perhaps the police should try doing the job we say they should be doing.  If what we think is wrong, then they should be diverting resources into educating us as to why.

      The best policing is self-policing.  You get that through consistent, clear messages, transparency and accountability.

      I see it in the microcosm of association football (and indeed most sports).  There’s nothing worse than a referee who applies the rules inconsistently.  The ref can interpret the rules wrong, but if they interpret the rule the same way each time, the players will adjust to it and will largely police themselves.

      The same happens here.  We’re told stealing is wrong, yet we see people steal all the time and nothing seems to happen.  We’re told violence is wrong, yet you see it every weekend around the night venues. 

      I don’t think most human beings are die-hard authoritarians who want the cane and the noose - it’s that we don’t care if it’s there or not, just make the rule, draw the line and then ENFORCE the line.  For everybody (including our leadership).

      Reply

    • Le Roi says:

      01:52pm | 14/08/12

      They ARE doing the job “we” tell them to do… they have a job to do, which inevitably gets changed every time “we” vote in a new Govt promising us the earth. It’s not about Police diverting their own resources because they don’t care, its Govt’s taking away what little resources/powers they had every time one of their constituents has a cry.
      You want Police to do a better job? Start by appointing a state Gov’t that stops shifting the goalposts, rather than blaming Police for Gov’t policy failures every time a Kings Cross joyrider goes on a rampage…

    • stephen says:

      07:44am | 14/08/12

      This may seem simple, but if kids are tired they won’t do much harm, so keep them physically and mentally occupied when they are away from home at either the PCYC, the Scouts, their school or whilst incarcerated elsewhere.

      Reply

    • JJ says:

      04:24pm | 14/08/12

      I agree Stephen. When I was at school in the 1980’s, on top of PE classes we had to do compulsory sport 2 afternoons after school a week and on Saturdays. We didn’t have the energy left to go out all night. But the do-gooders decided that some people didn’t like sport so they got rid of compulsory sport. Young people have a lot of pent up energy that should be directed in good healthy way rather than in anti-social dangerous ways that are no good for anyone. Notice to that youth obesity levels have also risen since this was stopped too.

    • wakeuppls says:

      07:45am | 14/08/12

      I’ll tell you how to fix it. Don’t dish out manslaughter charges and the like to people defending themselves and their property from these thugs. When good people fear the law as much or more than they fear the criminals, the likely outcome is more crime.

      Reply

    • James1 says:

      10:04am | 14/08/12

      Out of interest, can you point to any recent cases where this has happened?  I have had trouble finding any cases where it has actually occurred in Australia, but if it is generating such fear, it must be quite commonplace.

    • wakeuppls says:

      11:40am | 14/08/12

      And how exactly do you know from cases that a man was acting in self defence when you need to prove this when the default judgement is always murder or manslaughter from circumstantial evidence? Of course you won’t know from cases because the evidence required to support self defense is harder to come by than simply having a dead body as evidence of murder.

      Instead of asking whether or not reasonable force was used in situations where a break in may have occurred, there should be no questioning of the property owner. If someone has broken in they forfeit their right to life, pure and simple.

    • MarkS says:

      11:42am | 14/08/12

      @James1
      I do not recall the name of the case but I do recall the facts as stated in a sentencing judgement. So the facts as found by the judge to have been proven.

      An invalid retiree in his 50’s was in his shed when he heard the postman arrive. Picking up the knife he had been using he went to his mail box, got out his mail & was opening it with said knife. His next door neighbour was a gym junkie & steroid user in his 20’s, with a criminal record for assault, who had publically threatened to kill the older man. The young man walked up & went to punch the older man. The older man stabbed him & he died.

      He got seven years for manslaughter because he used a weapon to defend himself. Never mind that he had not then it would have been the young man who would have been facing charges for manslaughter or murder. But better seven years then dead.

      If you read Supreme Court sentencing judgements on Austli you will find this sort of thing.

    • James1 says:

      12:20pm | 14/08/12

      We don’t require the actual judgements or verdicts.  Surely, if a person killed an intruder this would hit every headline in whichever city it occurred in.  From your response, I take it that you are not aware of anyone being charged with manslaughter for killing someone that was breaking into their house recently.  I actually recall a case of this from around fifteen years ago in South Australia, where a man shot an unarmed intruder with a shotgun and was charged, but later aquitted I think, of manslaughter, and there was huge publicity surrounding it.  Surely the tabloids would be all over such a case if one had occurred recently, wakeuppls, and as such I thought you might possess some evidence to support your contention.  I will take MarkS’s advice and have a look for myself, I think (for which thanks MarkS, I hadn’t thought of Austlii).

      Until then, I will continue to assume it is incredibly rare in Australia.

    • wakeuppls says:

      12:57pm | 14/08/12

      I read cases like it all the time. I just don’t remember the details. Don’t take my word for it. It’s law that it is up to the jury to determine reasonable force in self defence which is totally the wrong method in some instances. In home invasions for example there shouldn’t even be a trial.

    • James1 says:

      02:20pm | 14/08/12

      This is something that interests me, so I would really appreciate it if you could post a link in the Open Thread next time you come across a case wakeuppls.  Sadly, I don’t have time to read as many tabloids as I would like.

    • M says:

      02:38pm | 14/08/12

      I agree wakeup, as if you’d be thinking about reasonable use of force when faced with a home invasion.

    • cheap white trash says:

      07:47am | 14/08/12

      Locking up every young crim might not be the answer,

      Hell no,we dont want to offend the little shits now, do we?
      Maybe a slap on the wrist and a good talking to might do the trick,because being tough on them hasn’t worked now has it?

      We reap what we sow,so all those ys of namby pamby feel good, progressive thinking just doesnt cut the mustard in the real world.
      You can go back to the Frank Walker era,because this is where a lot of this progressive thinking started,Yep the good old labor party,u have alot to answer for.

      Reply

    • Gregg says:

      07:54am | 14/08/12

      There’s one very telling bit of info in your article Penbo, or lets say one more than others and perhaps the core:
      ” The crime rate in Redfern has come down and much of it is due to the “work” of police in doing something as simple as exercising with young kids “

      And that is not so much illustrating the good of having active PCYCs and community proactive policing for one has to ask where are the parents?
      If we say they’re at work which is questionable, then the next question is how old are the kids getting the exercising and should they not have been at school!

      Yep, our society seems to accept more and more that parenting or the lack of quality in it is to be picked up by teachers whether they be at schools or in this case police doing their work.

      If there are measurable benefits in police being active in a pre emptive way in the community we should not complain too much and the only problem is that there will likely never be enough to go around.
      Hopefully through such police work, the extent of mentoring will involve some nurturing of good leadership such that older kids can also help younger ones along the right way to avoid bullying, vandalism and petty crime etc.

      There does however have to be a limit re the nature of crime and how it is handled however and certainly anything that involves use of weapons and/or violence, especially against the more frail and elderly in our communities needs to be stamped down very hard upon via court sentencing which hopefully will be more than a slap on the wrist.
      Perhaps there could even be a system of some community courts which could lessen the legal quagmires and costs - elders in the communities for instance determining what befits a crime.

      Reply

    • iansand says:

      09:28am | 14/08/12

      Many “more cosseted members of academia” advocate identifying families at risk and offering support at the family level as the most effective and economic method for reducing crime rates.

      But Tabloid Dave rejects that.

    • Andrew says:

      08:49am | 14/08/12

      If 80 percent of people believe it is the responsibility of the police to divert a young offender from re-offending then perhaps it is time to consider mandatory life sentences for young offenders. That way they will be guaranteed never to re-offend.

      Reply

    • Scooter says:

      09:09am | 14/08/12

      Remeber when the local Copper, was the local Copper.  They resided in the area, worked the local station and walked the local beat.  They were an active part of the local community.  Knew the people, knew the kids.  And they dealt with the local issues.  And if you were ever dragged home by one, by the ear, then you had to deal with them and your father.  The loss of community is reflected in the loss or personal responsibility and the repercussions of personal actions.  It has all been shifted off to bureaucratic functions, paperwork and remote decisions in courtroom with little to no individual accountability.  Who now knows their neighbours?  Who now cares?
      Get the Police out in the community and let them Police.  Speed cameras do not slow traffic, a marked patrol car does.

      Reply

    • Gregg says:

      10:05am | 14/08/12

      Can you tell me that story again Grandpa - Grandpa, wake up1
      You know about how when televisions had a knob on them and you had to get up off the couch to change the channel.

    • Tator says:

      11:10am | 14/08/12

      Not sure who does it in NSW, but here in SA, speed cameras are staffed by public servants, the only police involved are the two managers of the unit.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:58pm | 14/08/12

      Really, Gregg? That’s the best response you could come up with to Scooter’s comment? Here’s a lollipop. Now, run away and play in the back yard, please, the grown ups want to talk.

      Scooter, you have a point.  There seems to be an issue with parents backing up other authority figures, whether they’re police or teachers. There was a time, and not that long ago either, when, if you misbehaved at school, you didn’t just cop it from the teacher, you also copped it from Mum and Dad when you got home. These days it’s more likely for Mum and Dad to go to the school and abuse the teacher for daring to try to discipline their little brats. No wonder kids think they’re untouchable - their parents won’t discipline them and they won’t let anybody else do it either.

    • LC says:

      09:18am | 14/08/12

      I wouldn’t want to see people locked up over a loaf of bread. But I expect people to be locked up for things like assault, attacks with weapons, sexual assault and repeat offending.

      If you intentionally take a life, regardless of wether you’re 15, 25 or 55, justice can only be served if you’re locked up for as long as the victim remains dead. You attack someone with a weapon, you get charged with murder or attempted murder, end of story. No getting off the hook for being drunk or drugged (states which one goes into voluntarily) or having a difficult childhood (lots of people have had a less than desirable childhood, and we don’t go around stabbing people, staring fights etc). They are the people who need to be jailed for the good of the community, and they aren’t. That’s where the problem lies.

      Reply

    • P. Walker says:

      12:18pm | 14/08/12

      @LC, agree totally, and I hear you also with this statement: “lots of people have had a less than desirable childhood, and WE don’t go around stabbing people, staring fights etc”
      In my 60s and I can equate with it.  I have never seen the inside of a court room because I know not to interfere with other people’s property or lives.  Its pretty easy really!

    • Anne71 says:

      01:01pm | 14/08/12

      LC & P. Walker - exactly. “But they had a difficult childhood!” is NOT justification for criminal behaviour.  Plenty of people have had those, but still manage to grow up without committing crimes because of it.

    • Chris says:

      03:51pm | 14/08/12

      What about for home invasions? Should the home owner or person living there not be able to defend themselves or should they be locked up for life if they kill an intruder even by accident?

    • P. Walker says:

      04:32pm | 14/08/12

      @ Chris, “Should the home owner or person living there not be able to defend themselves or should they be locked up for life if they kill an intruder even by accident?”

      I’ll cross that bridge if I have to, but as LC stated, “They are the people who need to be jailed for the good of the community, and they aren’t.”

      If they were in gaol, they wouldn’t have invaded.  Remember there are a few million like us who have not seen the inside of a court.  Those that have are generally the repeat offenders who appear to have bungy ropes attached.

      I would leave it to the courts, champ, and expect that they would find I’m no threat to the community.  In fact I have praised those who do defend their rights, I have no room for scum.

    • LC says:

      06:14pm | 14/08/12

      Chris, personally my thoughts on that is if someone is in your home with intent to harm persons or steal/damage property, or if someone is attacked with a weapon, then they should have unlimited power to defend themselves; the “reasonable force” principle should not apply in such circumstances.

      Right now, the lack of (legal) power on behalf of innocent people to defend themselves against criminals if need be is yet another reason why criminals run rampant. They know if their victim even tries to defend him/herself of their property, legally the crim becomes the victim, and the poor man/woman finds him/herself with a criminal record (affecting their chances of gaining meaningful employment), civil damages to pay, and even a stint in the big house, all for defending themselves against someone who could’ve very well killed them, or for enforcing their right to feel safe in their own homes. That’s not justice.

    • Greg says:

      09:26am | 14/08/12

      The solution is easy,

      fence off Tasmania in an escape from new york fashion and throw anyone who commits a crime in there to fend for themselves, problem solved.

      And you would create plenty of jobs firstly in building the wall and then for sharpshooters to patrol the wall shooting anyone who gets too close, and tassie is far enough away it’s not possible to swim out.

      Reply

    • PsychoHyena says:

      10:31am | 14/08/12

      @Greg, actually let’s just throw them onto the islands (Kangaroo, etc) and leave Tas out of this. We already take your elderly here, though maybe if you mainlanders were willing to pay perhaps $100k per year for them to be incarcerated here….

    • bananabender56 says:

      09:49am | 14/08/12

      Punish the parents for offenders under 18. The defense of ‘I don’t know where my child is or what they’re doing’ is unacceptable.
      Perhaps then parents will return to what they are supposed to be doing - parenting.

      Reply

    • AboutTime says:

      01:07pm | 14/08/12

      Thank you, thank you, thank you!

      You are the first person to mention parental responsibility!!!

    • M says:

      10:00am | 14/08/12

      Come to Townsville - 5 years old up breaking into houses and stealing cars. They get a slap on the wrist and sent home to keep doing it. Locking them up up here is the only answer. They have no respect at all for the police because they know the police can’t do anything.

      Reply

    • M says:

      10:54am | 14/08/12

      See what happens when you teach children their rights instead of their repsponsibilities?

    • James1 says:

      11:32am | 14/08/12

      To be fair, I don’t think five year olds have any concept of either rights or responsibility.  In those cases, and I also saw many while living in the poor areas of Toowoomba, it is the fault of the parents.  Any parent who doesn’t know exactly where their five year old is at any point in time should have their children taken away and given to gay couples.

    • MarkS says:

      01:57pm | 14/08/12

      @M
      Your statement interested me enough that I looked at the demographics of Townsville. I come from a small town that had a mini crime wave every fruit picking season as transient workers entered the town for work, so I was interested if something like this was happening.

      Diverse economy, Mining, Industry, University, and Defence force bases, Tourism, Rural areas around beef, sugar, timber. A population that is younger then the Australian avg, earns more than the state avg & has a higher amount of short term workers that move in & out due to the Mining, Tourism & Defence. Nothing here to explain this issue.

      The only thing I noted that may explain the issue you raised was that indigenous persons where 5.7% instead of the Australian average of 2.3%.  The problems that Australia has with crime by indigenous persons are well documented, if sometimes brushed over due to PC considerations. So are these children who wonder around by themselves committing crimes & talking about their rights often indigenous people?

    • M says:

      03:50pm | 14/08/12

      Its appalling - the parents will sometime drive them around and get them to break in so they don’t get in trouble for it.
      Its not just indigenous kids, it is about 50/50. They are bored and its competition over who can steal the nicest car, the most cars, travel the furthererest without getting caught. They just don’t care.
      When they do break in 9/10 they want you car keys and will steal your car out of the garage while your asleep. If you ipod or wallett happens to be lying around they will take that too. They dont want the cars to sell for money or anything like that - they want them to joy ride.
      The state govt is working in a plan of boot camps for trial early next year - it cannot come soon enough. In one weekend we can have 10-20 cars stolen easily.

    • M says:

      03:51pm | 14/08/12

      Its appalling - the parents will sometime drive them around and get them to break in so they don’t get in trouble for it.
      Its not just indigenous kids, it is about 50/50. They are bored and its competition over who can steal the nicest car, the most cars, travel the furthererest without getting caught. They just don’t care.
      When they do break in 9/10 they want you car keys and will steal your car out of the garage while your asleep. If you ipod or wallett happens to be lying around they will take that too. They dont want the cars to sell for money or anything like that - they want them to joy ride.
      The state govt is working in a plan of boot camps for trial early next year - it cannot come soon enough. In one weekend we can have 10-20 cars stolen easily.

    • Al says:

      10:08am | 14/08/12

      What is the point of having laws if there is no intent to enforce them?

      Perhaps the Singaporean approach should be encouraged; the number of women of all ages that have stated to me that they feel safe there at any time of the day is incredible.

      Very few of them know that they had to execute 42 people in the last ten years for them to feel that safe. But then again, you don’t tolerate a rabid dog so why tolerate a rabid human?

      Reply

    • Hanzel says:

      10:14am | 14/08/12

      We need to set up an army brigade based in somewhere like Cobar that’s only supplied by young crims, a dirty 30 dozen if you like. They’re trained, disciplined, educated and serve for 5 years then given freedom to stay in defense or make their way up the corporate ladder enjoying everything that our debauched culture has to offer. Everyone wins this way. With jail, everyone loses.

      Reply

    • James1 says:

      11:28am | 14/08/12

      I’m not sure training anti-social children in the use of automatic weapons, and then giving them the option of re-entering society is such a good idea.

    • waldemar schwefel says:

      10:24am | 14/08/12

      I am from Europa and what I experienced here is the law is very pleasant to offenders.  Before so goes to jail, that costs the government money, by the way,
      everything else is tried, from house arrest to social hours. Mass destruction and murder seem to be the sole reason to lock so up for a longer time. The young ones are fostered to become habitual offenders, they cant feel that one day a real penalty will come. When a youngster goes into jail in Australia, he already has a remarkable history of deeds you wouldnt brag before your grandchildren with. If one cant be fostered with reason, then fear has to do the job. Fearlessness by stupidity has made them crimes.

      Reply

    • Anjuli says:

      10:46am | 14/08/12

      I doubt growing up my parents ever new where I was when growing up as in the 30’s and 40’s even though war time, we used to wander and play where we pleased without causing harm to any one, a bit of mischief yes,pinching apples ,if caught a clip across the ear. Now if any one dares to chastise,  you would be up for assault even if it was only verbally there would be retaliation, they certainly would not look at what the child or teenager has done.  .

      Reply

    • Sarah says:

      11:23am | 14/08/12

      All you bleeding hearts out there come out with all these stats and ideas that are not based on any facts or logic .
      Get a grip there will all ways be people who don’t belong in society and they should be punished not rewarded as today ivory tower lawyers and judges set. The crims these days have more rights then the victims its a total joke. So what if they had a hard life they choose to commit the crime they should be responsible for there own actions , other people who have had a hard life have learned from that and become a well behaved citizen
      If all you bleeding hearts out there don’t think tougher laws and punishment work look at Singapore then for an example . Hardly any crime , safe to walk the streets at any time with out street gangs or graffiti . You bleeding hearts all sing the same song until something happens to you or some one you know .

      Reply

    • Destry says:

      11:30am | 14/08/12

      2-strike approach is best. Jail for the first offense. Hang them for the 2nd offense.

      Reply

    • M says:

      12:19pm | 14/08/12

      remember that next time you get a speeding ticket in the mail.

    • Loc 1849 says:

      12:32pm | 14/08/12

      That’s the attitude Destry, they’ll sit up and take notice then…......the Judge Roy Bean approach is sorely needed these days…when Snake River Rusty Krile shot Lily Langtree through the heart (a poster behind the bar), the Judge shot him dead, fined him $50 for disturbing the peace and another $10 for laying around…...and then hung him.

    • Loc 1849 says:

      12:52pm | 14/08/12

      Any lawyer with the temerity to defend an accused was fed to the Judges pet bear out the back…........

    • Destry says:

      02:03pm | 14/08/12

      @Loc 1849: wow! Thanks for the info, mate. Roy sounds like a man’s man. Australia desperately needs progressive, no-nonsense judges and on-the-fly lawmakers who resemble Paul Newman.

    • Al B says:

      11:30am | 14/08/12

      Lets not get too bogged down in general ‘youth crime’ stats ...how much of it is drug war related? Quite a lot for youth crime. In some respects, its the definition of ‘crime’ that needs some attention in many of these cases. Criminalising drug use and supply just sends s bunch of them ...usually the lower socio economic ones ...off to the university of crime.

      I mean really why oh why is the government still picking winners in the recreational drug market? Rub out much of the drug war and a lot (not all) of your ‘youth crime’ will go with it.

      Reply

    • Chris says:

      12:01pm | 14/08/12

      You mean there are police that are not hiding in the bushes with radar guns? That’s all we see up here in QLD.

      Reply

    • RL says:

      12:06pm | 14/08/12

      Waldemar is right, by the time some kid goes to jail here their rap sheet is already 15 pages full of Fines and Treatments that have been handed out as punishment.

      Anybody from Geelong will be able to tell you how well our Judges are working for us down here, in the last 2-3 weeks there would be around 10 people released on Assault charges with some PATHETIC fine of $1000, or some pitifully small amount of Community service + $500 fine.

      Its ridiculous and disgusting to be living in a country where every 2nd day I have to see some crap about their new anti-violence crap.

      YET I open up the paper the next morning and BAM another couple people getting off completely free for Violent crimes.

      So why have some national push on violent crimes if JUDGES wont punish the people responsible.

      Another thing to note too, if our jails werent so DAMNED CUSHY they wouldnt cost $100k p/a to house one prisoner.

      I say feed them slops, put them to work in hard labor teams, I bet the little wankers will slow down on their crimes after that sort of treatment.

      But not when its just like a hotel stay going to prison (which it is I have heard from multiple people), getting any drugs etc… you want on the inside too, NO punishment at all.

      Reply

    • Black Dynamite says:

      12:19pm | 14/08/12

      It would be a very long stretch to expect any reasonable person to have any semblance of faith in our justice system when a person selling raw milk gets a bigger punishment than a high profile lawyer who kills a cyclist while driving under the influence and then flees the scene. BD

      Reply

    • AdamC says:

      01:06pm | 14/08/12

      Why not treat youth crime, especially violent crime, in the same way we treat traffic offenses, in particular drink driving? That is the best example where governments have been able to significantly reduce the rate of offending over the long term. People seem to forget that this is what our criminal justice system is for: to serve society by discouraging and reducing the rate of crime.

      There is also no secret how we achieved the reduction in drink driving. It was through education campaigns (which we already have in spades when it comes to youth violence) combined with strong, sustained enforcement based on severe, mandatory, and in many cases even disproportionate, penalties. We also made things like intoxication aggravating factors in offences, rather than treating them as mitigants, which we currently do with youth crime.

      If this worked for drink-driving, why couldn’t it work for youth crime?

      Reply

    • matt says:

      01:20pm | 14/08/12

      GPS Tracking, lock them up in their own homes.

      Reply

    • Tanya says:

      01:20pm | 14/08/12

      Recidivism rates show that imprisonment isn’t the answer. The majority of young criminals are raised in poor socio-economic communities where culturally, crime is viewed as innovative. Inherent also in the mentality is a hatred for people who are economically better off and by default, undeserving. Therefore crimes such as housebreaking and theft are committed almost righteously. Prison doesn’t address this any more than the environment they grew up in. Until the widening gap between rich and poor is addressed in Australia, the crime rate will continue to rise.

      Reply

    • AdamC says:

      02:13pm | 14/08/12

      Tanya, I would argue that recidivism rates show that soft-on-crime policies are not working.

    • tom says:

      02:29pm | 14/08/12

      So you say give them more money ? What a clever idea give them money for committing crimes why didnt any one else think of that . They already get welfare hand outs which are just about as much as lower income earners who work hard for there money and all they have to do is sit on there buts do drugs and commit crimes . Your a genius ...

    • Cynicised says:

      02:41pm | 14/08/12

      I believe that Restorative Justice is a very worthwhile approach as an interventionist strategy, beginning in schools to assist young people to develop empathy and consideration for others, before they become hardened offenders. This  article link discusses the strategy in detail. http://www.wellbeingaustralia.com.au/wba/2009/06/restorative-practices.html

      The principles of RJ involves both  a recognition of the harm anti-social behaviour causes and reparations for the damage caused, negotiated between all  affected parties. The perpetrator of the  offence does not get off with a “slap on the wrist”. The young person must make amends, in whatever manner is deemed appropriate. This is the core of the philosophy, to foster an understanding of the harm done and to insist it be compensated. 

       In a broader social  sense,  as the approach is implemented in some legal jurisdictions in the US,  those perceived  as “ undeserving” of their affluence by the young offender  may require the young person to work off the cost of property damages, therefore developing an understanding of how the property was acquired in the first place, as well as an understanding of the dignity of work.

      Changing the attitudes which make crime happen, ie developing empathy, coupled with developing self-discipline and self esteem,  (such as the boxing classes with the police in Redfern,)  is a far better and more sensible approach than throwing away the key.

    • Tanya says:

      01:21pm | 14/08/12

      Recidivism rates show that imprisonment isn’t the answer. The majority of young criminals are raised in poor socio-economic communities where culturally, crime is viewed as innovative. Inherent also in the mentality is a hatred for people who are economically better off and by default, undeserving. Therefore crimes such as housebreaking and theft are committed almost righteously. Prison doesn’t address this any more than the environment they grew up in. Until the widening gap between rich and poor is addressed in Australia, the crime rate will continue to rise.

      Reply

    • Stan says:

      01:58pm | 14/08/12

      Everyone deserves a second chance, the chance to redeem, the chance to avoid incarceration, except when it involves the premediated or reckless death of another.
      I emphasise a second chance, not a third or a thirtieth

      Reply

    • CJ Thirroul says:

      02:30pm | 14/08/12

      There has to be effective repercussions for breaking the law that discourage future criminal activity. It will definitely not work in all cases because there are always some people who go down the criminal career path no matter what. What really irritates me is the number of good behaviour bonds etc young criminals are given. Of course many don’t see them as punishment because nothing actually changes. Personally I think once a person reoffends they they have given up the right to lenient sentences. I also feel that though jail is definitely undesirable it is also definitely way too easy. A few weeks of 23 hours per day in a jail cell would have a far greater impact on young criminal behaviour than the slap on the wrist garbage we currently see time and again. In many cases the facilities offered at jail are far superior to those available at home. At school, the greatest deterrent to misbehaviour was to be removed from your peers to an isolated location where you could not get any support from your peers. It worked most most of the time. It is obvious that the current system is not working. Finally there has to be far more emphasis on the rights of the law abiding portion of the population to live their lives free from fear of violence or theft. That isn’t the case at present.

      Reply

    • fritter says:

      02:39pm | 14/08/12

      Why don’t we just send them all to Naru? Oh, that’s right Naru’s about to fill up.
      How about cutting off a finger for each offense?
      In reality, the ONLY sucsessful way to drasticaly reduce crime rates that i have ever witnessed is the three strikes policy in the US.
      It works.

      Reply

    • Robinoz says:

      04:43pm | 14/08/12

      I worked at a correctional centre where there were several life term prisoners who were young men who had committed one murder, unpremeditated, usually involving alcohol and fighting.  Most had been there 10-15 years and it appeared to me that while they murdered someone, they aren’t likely to reoffend in the same way as say, pedophiles or other sex offenders It would have made sense to let them out while they could return to the community and make a contribution. Others came and went, in one week, out a few months later and then back in a few weeks after release. It seems that if we can identify the criminogenic needs of youths offending early, it might be possible to reintegrate them, however, there comes a stage when some people make a choice to continue offending and it is then that they need to be locked up for the good of the community. Occasionally I wondered what would happen if our society killed off all the bad buggers ... would it, like evolution, lead to a better type of human being as we got rid of the “bad seed”? Probably not. Life seems to be all about extremes; black and white, hot and cold, good and bad. We just have to do our best at the time protecting society from those with evil intent and hope that we can actually get some of them to mend their ways.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      08:48pm | 14/08/12

      Impulse type criminals might be the easiest type to fix.

      The reason why social scientists do not want incarceration of relatively minor delinquents is because of the danger that when they are in jail, they will learn behaviours which may reinforce dependency and other poor social habits.
      It is the process of time that might make out of this a true criminal.

      Judges consider this fact in sentencing, because the Doctors have told them that time-honoured and reinforced behaviours are very hard to reverse, and so they wrongly compensate : the impulse crime is excused, and jealous husbands and wives are recognized as innocent vigilantes.
      ‘Bad buggers’, as you say, can be either the spur of the moment killer or the planner ; in my opinion, it is only the speed of the the act which is different, but unfortunately the Law has found out that the psychology of the former vitiates a final sentence.

    • Swamp Thing says:

      09:22pm | 14/08/12

      Eugenics. Do that for a couple of generations and things will even out nicely.
      Nobody wants to hear how the old ways are often the best.

      Reply

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