Malcolm Turnbull has retained his position as leader of the Liberal Party after winning a secret ballot on a motion to spill the leadership by 48-35. Punch editors will be posting the latest developments, commentary, pictures and video here as they come to hand. Times are AEDT. Refresh this page for updates.

4pm: Question Time over, the Libs limped their way through it the poor sods, they looked like a footy team that had just got thumped in the GF. Read our coverage of the day unfolded below. I will post a new piece later today wrapping up Turnbull’s two days of hell, and his future from here.

1.55pm: Time for Question Time. The Punch will be covering it live here - join in, should be fun.

1.50pm: Battered Libs limping their way towards chamber for QT. One MP just told me this is their equivalent of DLP split. Total and unabiding fury between the two camps. MPs also talking up hockey as best consensus candidate for leadership change in new year.

1.41pm: News round-ups of the events at the partyroom meeting now available at news.com.au and The Australian.

1.33pm: It’s certainly a better result than yesterday on the CPRS - but it won’t give Turnbull any security. Almost half the party still out to get him…

1.31pm: Joe Hockey speaking after the meeting. “Clearly this issue has done us incredible damage and I hope the Australian people forgive us…”. Emphasises the Liberal Party is a progressive party. Says given the mood of the party the 48-35 result was a good result for Turnbull.

1.29pm: It’s understood Joe Hockey was sounded out by the right for leadership on condition he opposed the CPRS. Said he’s not interested in starting his leadership career by selling his soul.

1.28pm: Kevin Andrews says he accepts the result of the ballot, but 35 is a significant number in the party room, which makes a strong point about the position on the CPRS. He says of Turnbull: “of course he has my support, he’s the leader of the party.”

1.23pm: No spill. Motion lost 48-35 in a secret ballot.

1.14pm: Cannot find a single Lib who is taking Kevin Andrews’ candidacy seriously or as a genuine threat. With Abbott not in the mix Turnbull shouldn’t get rolled.

1.13pm: Parliament security, at the request of the Opposition Leader’s office, are preventing journalists from congregating near the party room. Not sure why, as people inside the meeting will text developments to the press gallery anyway.

12.56pm: Samantha Maiden of The Australian writes on Twitter: turnbull has just walked into office with dep COS credlin. looks really upset

12.55pm: Went down to Senate garden to hear Turnbull at White Ribbon Day event. Took the pledge to never commit excuse or conceal violence against women, as did all the blokes at event. He spoke well, looked in control. Spoke to Joe Hockey afterwards - he says MT will survive today. Party room starting shortly.

12.54pm: Wrap-ups of the Andrews presser from The Australian here, and from ABC online here.

12.48pm: Surreal live footage on Sky of Turnbull speaking right now at a White Ribbon Day event. In the background stands Kevin Rudd.

12.46pm: Speers also reporting the Senate privileges committee report into the Utegate affair will be tabled this afternoon. Not sure how much worse Malcolm Turnbull’s day could get.

12.39pm: And here’s a picture Steve Fielding with his favourite graph in the Senate chamber today during debate on the CPRS.

Family First Senator Steve Fielding in the Senate chamber today

12.35pm: Secret ballot? David Speers on Sky News reports a source saying there will be a secret ballot rather than a show of hands on whether to have a leadership spill. If this is what happens it raises the stakes for Malcolm Turnbull.

12.26pm: Andrews wraps up after getting what he describes as a “silly question” about how he’d handle Barack Obama or Gordon Brown.

David Speers on Sky News says that “most” sources say Turnbull “overwhelmingly” has the numbers.

12.24pm: Live discussion coming up on The Australian with the paper’s contributing editor Peter van Onselen. You can join it here from 12.30pm.

12.18pm: Andrews still getting grilled by the gallery, including on his statements on Sudanese immigration and his position on border protection.

Declares, “I would beat Kevin Rudd”, then quickly clarifies the Australian people would decide.

Wisecrack: You’ve had Kevin07, you could have Kevin11 or Kevin10.

12.09pm: Kevin Andrews speaks to the press, describes the ETS as the “most significant economic issue that I have seen since I’ve been in Parliament”. Says he’s standing for the leadership because he believes “people are now starting to understand what [the ETS] means for them”.

Referring to the leaked emails from the UEA, Andrews says we’ve seen “this whole revelation” of what appears to be “quite deliberate manipulation of the data” upon which climate change policy is being decided.

11.52am: Kevin Andrews is about to hold a press conference. The ABC is streaming it here.

11.50am: Bruce Hawker has just filed an analysis piece for The Punch here.

11.49am: Resignations Three Lib MPs - Mitch Fifield, Matthias Cormann and Brett Mason - have tendered their resignation in writing to Turnbull as parliamentary secretaries. They are refusing to serve under him. Turnbull has not accepted their resignations. One MP tells The Punch: “There will be more resignations.” It’s a mutiny.

11.45am: The Senate has voted to extend sitting hours tomorrow until 11.40pm, in the hope the CPRS Bill could get through in this last sitting week of the year. The vote split the Opposition, with some Coalition Senators crossing the floor to vote against the extension.

11.38am: In the understatement of the day, one of the anti-Turnbull agitators Dennis Jensen just told Sky News “unfortunately emotions are running high.”

11.16am: Sorry Malcolm, you’re not really like Robert Mugabe.. From AAP: [Peter] Slipper later clarified his earlier comment likening Mr Turnbull to Mr Mugabe, saying he was referring to the “result” of the party room meeting, and not his leader personally.

So that’s that sorted then.

10.53am: It’s on. Turnbull’s office confirms there’ll be a vote on whether to spill the leadership at 1pm. Massive u-turn from position earlier today (see below) where he said there would “absolutely” not be a partyroom meeting to discuss the leadership.

Report here at The Australian.

10.45am: Reports of partyroom meeting at 1pm from several sources. Samantha Maiden from The Australian says on Twitter: “Libs partyroom on at 1pm say Libs, no Nats could be leadership.”

10.41am: Analysis from Chris Uhlmann of the ABC live now. Excerpt:

Mr Turnbull’s other problem is that he is leading a Coalition straddling the future and the past and one which, as yet, has no idea how to make the transition from the Howard era.

And that is tearing at the stitching of the Coalition’s dual nature; it’s an amalgam of liberalism and conservatism and there is a struggle for the soul of the party. It is just possible that it could tear itself apart.

Read the rest here.

10.27am: Early results of a poll now running on news.com.au about who should lead the Liberal Party. The current leadership team has the public’s support so far, with Hockey nudging Turnbull by just 3 votes here out of almost 1000 cast. You can add your vote on this page.

Results so far

10am: Malcolm Farr has just posted on his blog, arguing Malcolm Turnbull was standing up for a principle.

9.40am: If it’s even possible, Wilson Tuckey has stepped up his rhetoric, saying Malcolm Turnbull runs the Coalition as if “nobody else exists”. Asked if he was destabilising the party Mr Tuckey said: “Yes, I’m destabilising the opposition leadership, quite deliberately but using proper process.”

9.21am: The Daily Telegraph has examined the impact of the CPRS as it stands now on your household bottom line. You can read it here.

9.10am: CPRS negotiator Ian (Macca) Macfarlane said he was surprised when Andrew Robb came out opposed to the Bill in the party room yesterday. He’s told Seven and Sky News he would discuss the matter with Robb, who stepped away from negotiations five weeks ago due to illness, at a later date. Tony Abbott rejected suggestions Mr Robb’s turnaround amounted to “treachery”, saying he is a very honorable man.

8.56am: The Mugabe parallel. Peter Slipper said this morning: “The leader last night was about as dodgy as a Zimbabwean election organised by Robert Mugabe.” I’ve heard of hyperbole, but Malcolm Turnbull and Robert Mugabe? Surely a sign that basic respect and common sense have been abandoned in some quarters of the Liberal party this week.

8.44am: New online poll on the leadership. news.com.au has thrown it open, asking who among a wide range of Liberal frontbenchers, including Turnbull, should lead the party. Cast your vote and see the results on this page.

8.40am: Andrews puts up his hand, saying he’d be prepared to stand against Turnbull. Just minutes after Turnbull said there was “absolutely” no chance of a spill tomorrow, Andrews said on Macquarie radio it would be “extraordinary if that was not facilitated”.

Given it’s Kevin Andrews, it’s not quite of the order of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object, but still…

8.34am: Turnbull has said there’s “absolutely” no way he’ll agree to the partyroom convening tomorrow for a potential spill. Is this position tenable?

8.15am: Turnbull on AM, asked if the reports were accurate that his majority was just 1 vote. “No, no, it’s better than that,” he said quickly, sounding assured.

Adds there’s no candidate and at this stage only a letter from two backbenchers calling for a meeting. Says the answer is “absolutely” no to a possible partyroom meeting tomorrow.

The Andrew Robb outburst in the partyroom was a surprise to him, he says.

Says there are “some people who want us to be the no-action-on-climate-change party”. This position has “no credibility”, says Turnbull, adding he is confident he will lead the party into the next election.

8.01am. Something to enrage climate sceptics? - a new report co-authored by 26 climate scientists says “key climate change measures are tracking near or beyond worse-case scenarios” and “finds the statistical global warming trend has continued over the past decade”. Likely to be quoted by government figures through the day and dismissed by some on the Coalition side. More here.

7.46am: More from Turnbull. An excerpt from the AAP report:

[Turnbull] said there was no point in deferring action on climate change until after December’s global climate change meeting in Copenhagen, as the coalition had been debating a carbon reduction scheme since 2006.

“This is a good time to move on, get it resolved and then move on to other issues.”

Mr Turnbull challenged sceptics in his party to accept that in the 21st century, climate change is a major issue and needed to be addressed by the coalition.

“The Australian people want action on climate change. I am committed to the Liberal party being credible and relevant on climate change.”

Read it here.

7.31am: Turnbull speaks to the Seven Network, saying at issue is the party’s credibility on climate change with the electorate. “If the public see us as being credible and responsible on climate change then we can win their confidence,” he said.

7.02am: Tony Abbott rules himself out. The Member for Warringah told the Nine Network: “No, I won’t be challenging for the leadership.” (Still, things can change ... ) AAP also reports an unexpected shadow cabinet meeting has been scheduled for 8am.

6.47am: Peter van Onselen of The Australian says on ABC radio that Tony Abbott appears to be the only sensible alternative as leader. Adds that it’s not a “push” against Turnbull, but rather a move to remove him on the basis that he doesn’t respond to his backbench.

6.37am: A poll on The Australian’s website asks if readers believe Turnbull will still be leader at the end of the week. Two-thirds say they think he’ll be gone, with over 2300 votes cast already. You can see the poll on this page.

128 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Sam Chowder says:

      06:36am | 25/11/09

      If he does go - Kevin will give him a job

    • Wayne H says:

      06:59am | 25/11/09

      GONE! He has sold the country out from underneath us. Disgusted!!!!!

    • Elicia says:

      07:13am | 25/11/09

      There is no Leadership issue. Except with maybe old Tuckey and Andrew Robb. Turnbull put his leadership up for grabs 3 times yesterday and no takers. MOVE ON MEDIA! You guys are all beating a drum thats broken. Turnbull willl be leader at the next federal election, so how about reporting on some real news about the ETS, instead of acting like a bunch of gossiping old women at a CWA meeting. The media in this country look like a bunch of idiots.

    • T.Chong says:

      07:28am | 25/11/09

      Elicia: good Lib damage contol spin attempt.  The media are reporting what is happening in the party room, or do you believe its all some type of lefty media plot ?
      The party room is full of flat earthers and similar bloody minded dinosaurs. The coalition is now reaping what was sewn.
      Plus isnt comparing the shadow cabinet (from where the leaks are coming from) as gossiping old women rather sexist and demeaning .? (to the CWA)

    • Logan says:

      07:34am | 25/11/09

      It’s cringe worthy stuff watching journalists and reporters trying to coherse drama over Turnbulls leadership. Get on with the real issue here media, the ETS is the important issue.

    • Ozzie Battler says:

      07:39am | 25/11/09

      I doubt I’d agree with Alecia on much, but to this point I do.

      On The Punch, there are no useful topics on Climate Change or on the CPRS, by The Punch stable or anyone else. Not one.

      It’s disgraceful - no cool neutral analysis across the competing views to be found.  The Punch is about fight, not light. Contemptible.

      I also agree with Mr Turnbull on one point. We need action on climate change, and we need it now.

    • acker says:

      07:56am | 25/11/09

      I think if things are this dramatic,and a geographic change of power is definitely on shifting the Lib power base from Sydney to Melbourne/Adelaide.

      The only sensible leadership change would be electing Tony Smith leader and Sussan Ley deputy….hope they can hold the party together in the coming election/train wreck..then have their profiles lifted for a good shot at the 2013 election.

      Abbott and Andrews only offer band-aid solutions, to a party needing stable sensible leadership rather than the spectacular.

      If Turnbull does survive, it must be remembered thet a lot of these older lib pain in the rse’s to him such as Bronny Bishop, Wilson Tuckey, Kevin Andrews, etc might not be around after the next election.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:04am | 25/11/09

      Ozzie Battler: 7:39 most of the pundits who post here, seem to be big fans of the coalition- hence the “this is not news,media beatup etc”
      I wonder if that attitude would prevail if the Labor caucus was in such dissaray?

    • John says:

      08:04am | 25/11/09

      Sure Malcolm is coping lots of leadership crap but hey rudd is totally hopeless and since he is the pm doesn’t that mean we are in the downward spiral? scary!

    • iansand says:

      08:10am | 25/11/09

      If it is a geographic thing the Liberals are heading into the doldrums of the Howard/Peacock Sydney/Melbourne thing.  It kept them out of power for years.

      Another Santayana moment

    • Maurice says:

      08:14am | 25/11/09

      Where does all this leadership crap come from? Wilson bloody Tuckey, the only time the media want to give this idiot any credibility is when he’s back stabbing Turnbull. Tuckey should be sent out to pasture along with Kevin Andrews and Andrew Robb. The Howard era is finished and these guys need to accept that or get out of the way.

    • David says:

      08:18am | 25/11/09

      Gripping stuff…. The Liberal party is tearing itself to shreds in Primetime.
      I cannot get my head around the fact that Wilson Tuckey, an old dinosaur that is IRELLEVENT east of the EUCLA TELEGRAPH STATION is one of a hand full of people that is doin this. As J.W.H. said, disunity is death and hopefully the voters of O’Connor realise this and rid this country of this noxious weed at the next election

    • DJM says:

      08:46am | 25/11/09

      I’m very concerned about yesterday’s shenanigans in the Lib party room. It all adds up to no effective opposition with no credible alternative policies. Good god we could be destined to suffer decades under this Whitlam Mk11 government.

    • acker says:

      08:54am | 25/11/09

      @iansand

      Wasn’t the Howard/Costello thing a continuation of the Sydney/Melbourne thing ?

      I think it has gone beyond that, the South Australian Lib’s seem to be locking in with the Victorian Lib’s with only left leaning Libs such as Chris Pyne probably sitting outside that clique, and most know that Cory Bernardi is openly trying to shoot down the political carreer of his fellow South Australian Chris Pyne.

      A player such as the fairly high profile young Lib Jamie Brigg’s becomes an interesting front bench prospect in this environment. A lad from Kyneton Victoria who holds a fairly safe House of Reps South Australian seat.

    • Rickster says:

      08:57am | 25/11/09

      You have lost my vote ....forever

      You have sold out our children’s future and destined this country to ruin

      You are a gullible puppet Mr Turnbull .... believing an ETS is going to solve any so-called climate problems. 

      How dare you treat the Australian public with such contempt.
      You are a disgrace.

    • Darren says:

      09:08am | 25/11/09

      the only member of the liberal Party to have any credit in this debacle is Ian McFarlane -

    • Yvonne says:

      09:09am | 25/11/09

      if Turnbull goes for this…..who the hell is it voting for Rudd? He is the one introducing the tax and keeps going on about “human induced climate change” that seems to be so well accepted by the people. How could Turnbull not support that, so long as he got the concessions needed? Oppositions are not in place to simply oppose everything. Lets attack the problem at the core…its Rudd, not Turnbull that has to go!!!!

    • watty says:

      09:15am | 25/11/09

      Nobody was comparing Turnbull to Mugabe, Mr. Penberthy.

      They were likening Turnbull’s “I am the Leader” but I am not about to tell you what the vote was to the Mugabe style of election.

      For one who gave Rudd his newspaper’s(Daily Telegraph) unqualified support in the 2007 election I suggest Penberthy should keep his political wisdom to himself.

    • Muzz says:

      09:23am | 25/11/09

      I’m with you Yvonne! Turnbull agrees with Rudd and all of a sudden it’s Turnbulls fault. Yet everyone is happy to accept anything Rudd does and says. If the ETS gets passed it will be Turnbulls fault again, and if Turnbull was against it they would paint him as a climate change denialist. It seems Rudd never gets held responsible for anything, just keep the focus on Turnbull.

    • shabangabang says:

      09:34am | 25/11/09

      Hockey has also painted himself into a corner. He has stated that he is not available for the job (opposition leader), so if he comes out of this as leader, there will be a blitzkrieg against his credibility.
      I personaly don’t care who is leader; same dead horse different jockey.

    • watty says:

      09:37am | 25/11/09

      U.S Senator calls for inquiry into “leaked/hacked” information

      http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/29/sen-inhofe-calls-inquiry-suppressed-climate-change-report/

      Why not lift the Australian “cone of silence” drawn down over
      IPCC scientific reports and the allegations in the “hacked/leaked” info and have a full blown inquiry in Australia.?
      Even journos who reckon the temperature in Adelaide is due to Global Warming should be invited to make their case.

      Message to Rudd and Turnbull…let the public know what has being going on since “Global Cooling” morphed into “Global Warming”

    • Steve of Cornubia says:

      09:39am | 25/11/09

      Turnbull, with palpable gratitude from Rudd and his willing accomplices in sections of the media, has provided Labor with precisely the thing it needed following the leaking of the outrageous emails from the Hadley Centre - a distraction. Now, instead of simply burying the news (for instance, the Brisbane Times put news of the leak in its Technology News section!), the willing media can just run crap about the Liberal party disarray until Hadley is old news and/or some pathetic ‘excuse’ for the emails has been concocted.

      I also watched with dismay, but no surprise, this morning when I saw Turnbull being grilled on the negative economic impacts of the ETS, on a programme which for months has regularly ‘interviewed’ Rudd (i.e. broadcasted a monologue) without any hard questioning re the ETS.

      For me, the Liberal party is more attuned to public sentiment than Labour - by a huge margin - simply by virtue of its ‘disarray’. It’s very, very clear that the general public is undecided, confused and wary of the ETS, pleading for unambiguous guidance, and in this respect the Liberals are quite right to have reservations. Labour politicians, meanwhile, in their apparent unanimity, are clearly putting their own future ahead of their constituents by taking the line most likely to get them re-elected and give Rudd his prize - a swanky job at the UN when he leaves Australian politics.

    • Paul G says:

      09:43am | 25/11/09

      I think people need to consider a very real issue. The next person who leads the Liberal Party will not be elected (regardless of who it is). What’s more, the next person to lead the Liberal Party to the election will also be the last. The Liberal Party and National coalition have run there course and have been fractured because of poor leadership and experience. Hopefully a new party will be created to fill the void. The Liberal Party and the Labour Party haven’t always been around. The parties in government included: 

      1901 - 1904   Protectionist Party
      1904 - 1905   Free Trade Party
      1932 - 1939   United Australia Party
      1939 - 1939   Country Party
      Rudd will be long remembered for what he has done and what he promised to do. In effect Rudd will be remembered for bring Australia’s economic and foreign relations position to a third world standard.

    • watty says:

      09:43am | 25/11/09

      I know this might be a long read for “Global Warming” enthusiast Penberthy but a few paras from the top it refers to 16,000 scientists who have signed a petition dismissing the scaremongering of the AGW BRIGADE.

    • Kent says:

      09:56am | 25/11/09

      I think it’s quite funny they way you run to Tuckey and print and air his rubbish, yet won’t print or air anything that comes from Turnbull or even Credible people like George Brandis the Shadow Attorney General who was at the meeting yesterday. Everyone knows Tuckey is a lunatic and should retire, so why do you bother to keep quoting everything he has to say? Because it suits your own agenda, and that is to see a Leadership spill. You guys have been waiting day after day since Turnbull became Leader and upset Rudd over UTEGATE. It’s you guys and Tuckey that want a Leadership spill not the Libs.

    • MIKY - J says:

      09:56am | 25/11/09

      I think what it shows us, is that our DEMOCRACY is working.
      Who cares if they dont toe the party line? Politics is about debate, discussion and disagreement. All major paries should be like this, state and federal. Voters need to see their representatives standing up for them. Makes for healthy politics.

    • Dave says:

      09:56am | 25/11/09

      Where does comedy end and tragedy begin?

      Kevin Andrews? I’m still occasionally bursting into laughter, a full 2 hours since first hearing the suggestion.

      With Abbott and Turnbull doing their best impersonations of Peacock & Howard, I’m looking forward to the ā€œBarnaby for PMā€ campaign.

      The last few weeks, starting with Four Corners, and culminating in this morning, is just truly, truly unbelievable.

      And the week is not yet over…

    • watty says:

      09:57am | 25/11/09

      Even Monbliot, the Left Wing Guardian’s proponent of the Global Warming “holocaust” is now querying and condemning the duplicity of the United Nations IPCC scientists but Penberthy is still a “true believer”.

      Like most Australian journos who pinned their “Global Warming” support to the mast in support of Kevin2007
      retraction is out of the question

    • Dave says:

      09:57am | 25/11/09

      Where does comedy end and tragedy begin?

      Kevin Andrews? I’m still occasionally bursting into laughter, a full 2 hours since first hearing the suggestion.

      With Abbott and Turnbull doing their best impersonations of Peacock & Howard, I’m looking forward to the ā€œBarnaby for PMā€ campaign.

      The last few weeks, starting with Four Corners, and culminating in this morning, is just truly, truly unbelievable.

      And the week is not yet over…

    • TLC says:

      10:05am | 25/11/09

      “I am Spartacus” those were last words many said before.
      Now Malcolm sealed his fate.
      I AM THE LEADER!  I AM THE LEADER!
      I think we know what will happen next.

    • Richard Wilson says:

      10:06am | 25/11/09

      Not one mention of the Climategate scandal related to the hacking of the IPCC’s main climate change warriors, the Climate Research Unit under Phillip Jones at East Anglia Uni. Where is the debate on the 1000+ emails which show collusion, deception bullying and potential fixing of the figures? This is the biggest scandal in history. Conning the world to stump up billions for a global tax on air. This is not about pollution of the airways and waterways which I deplore. Or destruction of the rainforests (how can you produce global warming without it?). It has only ever been about taxing the world’s population into serfdom. Where is the global “save the planet plan”. All we have is a bank devised carbon trading system where the biggest polluters buy up everone’s quotas and keep on keeping on. What a joke!
      And what a joke the Liberal leadership has turned out to be I am thoroughly disgusted! Throwe them out Libs - let them join the Globalisation and Personal Disenfranchisement Party festering within all major political groups so we can see who these guys who favour the UN over Australia are.

    • John A Neve says:

      10:12am | 25/11/09

      Paul G @ 0943hrs.

      I agree, but for slightly different reasons. This country does need new political blood, that is without doubt. The differences between the two major parties are virtually non existent.

      We also need a commitment from our politicians to work within our constitution and not dodge and weave around it.

      We need to cap the amount spent by any candidate or political party.

      Registered political parties should be forced to stand candidates in all seats,to allow all voters to register their true vote.

      Added to which we should drop compulsary voteing.

    • acker says:

      10:19am | 25/11/09

      @Darren says:09:08am | 25/11/09
      [ the only member of the liberal Party to have any credit in this debacle is Ian McFarlane ]

      Darren I reckon “Macca” has probably dealt himself into a plum climate change negotiation job when he quits politics.

      Or possibly even a future Govenor General

      I wonder if Andrew Robb’s change of position was due to a bit of jealousy he was directing at Ian McFarlane.

    • Little Ozzie bleeder says:

      10:36am | 25/11/09

      The problem is there are too many in the Liberal party living in the past and are so set in thier ways, they will not listen to anything that is not on thier own line of thinking. The likes of Andrew Robb, Nick Minchein and Wilson Tuckey are well past thier use by date and are not prepared to change with the times. To them there is no such thing as climate change, so where they been hiding, under thier rocks or in thier ivory airconditioned towers? Time to move on and get fresh blood in or face oblivion for the time being, and become irrelevant.

    • DG says:

      10:37am | 25/11/09

      Politically, Rudd could not have hoped for a better outcome.

      He’s well on his way to victory over the opposition on his ETS, and has managed to destroy his opposition. The Labor Party no longer has an equal opponent in the Liberal Party - it faces a disorganised rabble. And if there is one thing that the voting public dismiss more quickly than a party with poor policy it’s a party without consistent policy. The LP does not have a consistent party policy.

      I suspect that the next election will be called shortly after the LP finds a new leader and before the ETS has had any real chance to take effect (i.e any post introduction analysis on its efficacy).

    • wolf says:

      10:39am | 25/11/09

      10.34am Nick Minchin is dispatched with a tape measure to find the edge of the world

      Seriously, the flat earthers should break away and form their own party.  They aren’t helping anyone and are consigning the libs to at least a decade in oposition.

    • Roger That says:

      10:46am | 25/11/09

      If he does go down at least Turnbull will go down for the right reasons. Whether you think his principles are right or wrong you’ve got to acknowledge he’s taking a stand on them. As a cynical and swinging voter I reckon he deserves credit for being prepared to put aside his political interests and stand by proposed laws because he’s arrived at the conclusion that they’re the best thing for the country. Good luck to him.

      And if he goes, I hope Kevin Andrews replaces him so that Andrews can be hammered into political oblivion at the next election.

    • ETS ETC. says:

      10:50am | 25/11/09

      Xenophon just said in the Senate that Turnbull has secret ETS modeling, which hasn’t been disclosed to his party room.

    • Frank says:

      10:52am | 25/11/09

      Good on ya Turnbull for showing Leadership. He is a Leader and the only one with the guts to put his own job on the line for what he believes in. The other idiots who don’t get behind him should piss off and let Turnbull get on with the job as Opposition Leader. Some people in the Liberal party seem to forget John Howard is no longer the leader and a new leader is trying to move on from the Howard years. Hang in there Turnbull, and don’t quit and give Rudd what he wants.

    • Islander says:

      11:12am | 25/11/09

      Andrews will lose stunningly (they’re all mad if i’m wrong) and the next Newspoll will see a spike in Turnbull’s approval and a plumeting in the Coalition’s approval - Great job Malcolm

    • Luke says:

      11:14am | 25/11/09

      Leadership spill yeh! bring it on, and when Turnbull is victorious those other idiots in the party that are destabelising the Libs should pack their bags and move to Barbados!

    • Eno says:

      11:33am | 25/11/09

      Ahhh - I’m loving every second!

    • Patrick says:

      11:33am | 25/11/09

      I feel torn between my delight in seeing the Coalition canniblize itself, and my fear of having a hard right wing kook like Andrews in charge of one of Australia’s major forces in politics.

    • Jason says:

      11:45am | 25/11/09

      As a Labor supporter I hope they choose Andrews as that would put the final nail in the Liberal party coffin.

    • Eno says:

      11:45am | 25/11/09

      Senator Abetts is laying into teh bills big time in the Senate - hugely amusing

    • amused says:

      11:50am | 25/11/09

      Blimey,

      Eric Abetz going on in the Senate about the horrors of people twisting science in the name of their cause.

      This from Senator Abetz, an affirmed Christian.

    • George says:

      11:54am | 25/11/09

      The terms “Liberal-National Coalition” and “opposition” seem to be synonymous. They belong in opposition because they lost the election and yes it looks like they will loose the next one too. Right now they don’t appear to be very popular in the eyes of the electorate. Australians just didn’t like their attitude that they could erode years of negotiation to get workers rights when they tried to introduce AWA’s without any consultation with the people.

      They got it wrong big time and they’re still out of touch. Being in opposition means they should be offering an alternative government. Just opposing everything for the purposes of hindering their adversaries in an attempt to gain some misconceived idea that it will lead to a political advantage is another major misjudgment.

      Removing the trees from the planet will upset the balance of green house gasses alone. It’s a global problem and has been building up for centuries. Many in the coalition may want to see nuclear power as the primary source of energy in Australia. Perhaps that’s behind their motive for blocking the deal on the ETS anyway.

    • Islander says:

      11:59am | 25/11/09

      Can’t wait for QT & The Punch’s live blogging - it should be a hoot - see ya there Colgo, Tors, Eno et al

    • AT says:

      12:00pm | 25/11/09

      The only way this could be more entertaining is if Andrews and gang formed a breakaway DLP (Democratic Liberal Party). But that would be bad for Australia — there’s already been too much Chardonnay and latte fallen victim to the unrestrained guffawing.

    • Paul Martin says:

      12:02pm | 25/11/09

      Not another bloody Kevin ones enough in parliament.
      Given a choice i’d prefer Turnbull with his experience in the financial sector before entering parliament then Kevin Andrews as leader. Personally I think the Opposition is resigned to the fact of losing at the next election so it really doesn’t matter who is leader.

    • James says:

      12:03pm | 25/11/09

      Wait, Australia could have either Kevin… or Kevin as Prime Minister?

    • pc says:

      12:14pm | 25/11/09

      Hi Dave, Hi punchmates,

      How many would be tyrants in the coalition want to play at Brutus? They cant beat Caesar so they murder him. The plotters still dont win though. Caesar is declared a god and not even shakespeare could save Brutus from Dante. And none of the pretenders could play Antony,

      O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
      That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!
      Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
      That ever lived in the tide of times.
      Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!
      Over thy wounds now do I prophesy -
      Which, like dumb mounths do ope their ruby lips
      To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue
      A curse shall light upon the limbs of men
      Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
      Shall cumber all parts of italy
      Blood and destruction shall be so in use
      And dreadful objects so familiar
      That mothers shall but smile when they behold
      Their infants quarter’d with the hands of war
      All pity choked with the custom of fell deeds
      And Caesars spirit, ranging for revenge
      With hate by his side come hot from hell
      Shall in these confines with a monarchs voice

      Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war
      That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
      With carrion men, groaning for burial

      Somehow I dont think that Antony had the best interests of the republic at heart either. In fact antony sounds like a bit of a vogon to me.

    • Jane says:

      12:16pm | 25/11/09

      With the exception of the article in the Daily Telegraph the whole commentary is on the politics. This is a national disgrace.  Are people REALLY sure they want a ONE PARTY state called Australia.  It worked so well for Russia, is working beautifully in Cuba and Zimbabwe, is currently enjoying a nice fresh coat of lacquer in china.  Be careful what you wish for.  this is one of the most disgraceful episodes I have ever seen in Australian politics and from the MSM.  I became a voter in 1968.  The politics should be a bloody side issue yet only one writer in one paper has even bothered to put some of the facts in front of the Australian people.  I feel sick at my stomach at what is occurring.

    • George says:

      12:22pm | 25/11/09

      Malcolm Turnbull has been an excellent leader of the opposition for the Government as was Brendan Fraser. With the help of the coalition I’m sure that Kevin Andrews will just as good.

    • Daniel says:

      12:26pm | 25/11/09

      Even though I’m from the opposite side of politics this is the most most interesting Canberra has been in ages.

    • Earthling One says:

      12:27pm | 25/11/09

      Don’t worry about politics being able to solve the nature heading towards disaster and annihilation as we have gone too far. Even your Gods can’t save us. They will eventually have to bow to the elements within nature which are trying to balance things out now. Pray to the Sun and the Moon, thats all we have. Without them no life and no Gods. What about stopping consumerism. Don’t people get sick and tired of having to listen and read, buy this and get that every day of our lives. Consumerism is the great destroyer of the world. People have to moderate or even stop this insane practice of consumerism. STOP NOW RIGHT NOW EVERYBODY. You don’t need to buy a new lounge suite, television, dvd etc, etc every day or year. But they will say that if we don’t support consumerism the country will go bankrupt. I say, we have created a monster here that is consuming itself. This whole climate problem has arisen out of greed and hatred not moderation. People will have to go back to the Village in the future, the world population may split into two camps. Greed has killed this world, there is no doubt. It wasn’t meant to be this way for man. It is unnatural for man to be like this. And by the way, why don’t you governments shut down the bullet factories while you are at it. Now, that would be a good idea wouldn’t it.?

    • 6c legs says:

      12:28pm | 25/11/09

      this is the most fun i’ve had since widdle jonnie got hammered by Maxine.

    • david thomas says:

      12:33pm | 25/11/09

      ETS or no ETS that is the question tearing at the heart of the liberal party, what I dont understand is it was all stitched up by Howard and his party at the last election it was only a matter of determining how much to pay the big polluters to stop polluting.
      Now suddenly thay all have a conscience for the farmers big business and consumers and anyone else so they can deny the science and say it will never happen.
      Maybee this ETS proposal will not save one coastal property or the environment but what irks me the most is no alternate proposal has been made by the liberals, only the greens have offered a workable alternative to global warming, that is using green energy such as solar wind wave power and investing this enormous tax dividend into it so as to provide equal base load to conventional power.
      At first glance it might appear unrealistic but if you give the money directly to the people in the way of a subsidy instead of wasting it away on big business it cuts out wastage and the middle man.
      name supplied

    • Islander says:

      12:36pm | 25/11/09

      Re the wisecrack - isn’t that Kevin2010 and Kevin 1910 ??

    • Doug says:

      12:37pm | 25/11/09

      Climate change or no climate change - the world perceives it to be true and in politics, perception is reality.  The Coalition will spend the next 20 years in opposition if they’re perceived to be the party of denial.  Go Malcolm - the country needs businessmen in politics, not career bureaucrats and stuffed shirt lawyers.

    • Louis McLennan says:

      12:38pm | 25/11/09

      Kevin Rudd was set on ruining Australia(it’s his belief?) when in opposition. He did it when he got in power. So supporting Malcolm Turnbull who is trying to ruin Australia is perhaps a bit risky?

    • Eno says:

      12:40pm | 25/11/09

      Ah it just gets better. Andrews did a doorstep media thing suggesting that we were better off to do nothing ‘cause the science isn’t in. That’s a goodun!

      I reckon we might get the old school “Right wing” libs split from ‘small l’ libs - then if they’re clever the ‘small l’ libs will merge with the Greens in a new entity as then they’ll nab the green vote and the vote of people that see liberals as ‘economically conservative’ - that’d be a powerhouse party!

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:49pm | 25/11/09

      Go Fielding!

      Don’t let the “humans are evil” lot get you down!

    • Daniel says:

      01:01pm | 25/11/09

      I knew with all the media in Canberra over the past few hours family first and fielding wouldnt be too far behind desperate for attention.

    • Ian Camlett says:

      01:11pm | 25/11/09

      Please there must be a third credible political party starting up somewhere! What we have at the moment is a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea or the devil and the deeper blue sea!

    • AM says:

      01:11pm | 25/11/09

      I am not a greener nor a sceptic, but the Liberals should change their name to the Conservative Party and be done with it. They do not represent the middle ground anymore… they are shifting further and further to the right.  Going to Copenhagen with an ETS or not… the fact remains that the whole world is looking to make adjustments… waiting to see and prolonging the inevitable will cost more.  The earlier we get in the better.  Regarding the science, even if the earth was not warming, the fact remains that man made CO2 is being pumped into the atmosphere can’t go on unchecked forever before it comes back to bite us.  Even my little 6 year old daughter understands that pollution into the air is bad for you, so we need to act for their future.  To all the sceptics out there, I say that you are all mad.  Why wouldn’t you want to change our lifestyle to one that promotes using less CO2 energy and has as its core aim a cleaner less polluted world. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT?

    • Islander says:

      01:14pm | 25/11/09

      Barny (Rabble) Joyce on Sky mentioning Working Families at least a dozen times - the day just gets stranger and stranger

    • 6c legs says:

      01:16pm | 25/11/09

      I’m not usually into Blood Sports. But if Kevin Andrews gets a bloody nose today, I’ll pass his some ice. . .

      This debacle has just been simmering on the side since 07. The “coalition” have been in freefall since 07. Be interesting to see who has parachutes?
      Even if Andrew’s has been handed one, you can bet it’s been tampered with…

    • alteria says:

      01:21pm | 25/11/09

      Please don’t show any more pictures of Fielding and his faked graph. Here is what ANU climate expert Prof Will Steffen said of the climate advice Fielding is pushing:

      ‘In fact, based on the written documentation that I have seen… these counter arguments (pushed by Fielding and his ‘experts’)do not constitute credible science. These documents demonstrate a serious misunderstanding of climate science and processes for assessing that science; they also contain violations of the fundamental principles of sound statistical analysis. In addition, there are numerous example of flawed logic, misleading and inaccurate statements, and confused and inconsistent analyses. In my professional opinion and experience, science students at the ANU would be expected to much better than this.’

      Fileding is a hoax. Don’t give him the oxygen of publicity.

    • JAYVEE says:

      01:22pm | 25/11/09

      Well there You have it, The Gobal Climate change fearmongers finally & totally caught with their daks down, now backpeddalling because they are now admitting thtat their ‘science’ is NOT complete nor really reliable. So much for the billions wasted on Fear ‘Modelling’
      Nevertheless this mob wants us all to ‘believe’ that their now near religious cause is genuine & sincere and all we have to do is to just ‘believe’ ( and Not to do too much thinking .) On the pretext of we know more so shut up and do as we say.
      Malcolm hitched himself to this lot, trying to stand on multiple bandwagons at once. ( just in case there was a quid in it.) problem is we now have finally arrived at a fork in the road and Malcolms legs are no longer long enough to stand on more bandwagon then one.
      Good bye Malcolm!!!!

    • AM says:

      01:25pm | 25/11/09

      Let’s go to a double dissolution now!!!!! if it doesn’t get through the Senate.  Then we can trash out Fielding… the biggest fraud in there.  Has anyone actually checked his child abuse claims when he was young. Has anyone checked his dislexia claims….

    • BludnTar says:

      01:26pm | 25/11/09

      Spill motion lost 35 to 28. No spill.

      Turnbull survives as Leader with majority support, and with his Parties position to pass the ETS as modified.

      A good result - suck it up, you hysterics.

    • BludnTar says:

      01:27pm | 25/11/09

      Beg y pardon. 48 to 35.

      Now get on with it. Pass the ETS.

    • Louis McLennan says:

      01:28pm | 25/11/09

      We now have an ETS en route. How smart we are! Thanks for continuing to ruin the country Liberals AND ALP.

    • Lucy says:

      01:42pm | 25/11/09

      Assuming the following:

      If you voted for the spill you didn’t support Malcolm on the ETS.

      It is possible you didn’t support Malcolm on the ETS, but didn’t support the spill – however, we’ll leave that aside for the moment.

      Therefore it is very safe to assume the Liberal Party on the ETS would have had a result at least reflective of the 48 – 35 on the spill motion.

      The Nationals have a total of 14 members and all were against the ETS.

      Therefore, the vote of the Joint Party Room is 49-48 against the ETS.

      Malcolm will have to back down or he won’t last.

    • Justin says:

      01:49pm | 25/11/09

      What some of you seem to miss is that an ETS will not save 1 teaspoon of carbon going in to the atmosphere. If it was about stopping pollution which carbon dioxide is not then there would be alternatives to tax simply replanting vegetation to absorb the carbon would be a good start. Tobacco and alcohol are heavily taxed yet people still smoke and drink. We are all going to be charged more for what we currently have to do, use washing machines, refrigerate food and cook. These unavoidable things in life will continue to generate some form of pollution you will just be pay more for the privilege of doing the unavoidable. I am all for a healther cleaner envronment, paying tax will not deliver it.

    • BludnTar says:

      01:55pm | 25/11/09

      Too bad Louis. It’s almost exactly what the Liberal Party stood on at the 2007 election.

      You Liberal hysterics aren’t just bog-ignorant on climate and bog-ignorant on the ETS - you’re bog ignorant about your own damn Party.

      Why is that? Too bloody lazy to nut it out, that’s why.

      Suck it up. It’s time for acton on climate and ETS.

    • Rick says:

      01:55pm | 25/11/09

      Does this mean that unless the shadow cabinet get some steel by Thursday, we will have just one major party in Australia funded by global financial interests and soon to be known as the Global Financial Interests Party? That at least may free us from our delusions about a two party democratic system and to get off our @rses and develop something which might operate in our interests rather than those of the UN, the IMF and the World Bank.

    • RT says:

      01:56pm | 25/11/09

      Louis McLennan and others: you seem to have forgotten that both Labor AND the Coalition parties went to the 2007 election promising to introduce an ETS.  Whether you like it or not, they need to keep faith with that promise on both sides. Failing to do so would amount to a broken election promise.

    • iansand says:

      01:59pm | 25/11/09

      For Justin - One more time.  The point of the ETS is to gradually REDUCE the available permits.  Market forces (you should love that term) will mean that to continue to produce carbon based waste at the same level you will have to pay more and more for that right as the available permits are reduced, until we reach the point that buying permits to produce carbon will cost more than it costs to increase efficiency and reduce emissions.

      It is pretty simple.

    • Broken record says:

      02:00pm | 25/11/09

      Justin, your record’s stuck, and you’re playing a dud tune anyway.

      Nick off some where quiet, do some real serious homework on climate change, find out where you are abundantly wrong, and then come back and support your leader.

    • Phil says:

      02:01pm | 25/11/09

      This is just one vote.  Once the Liberals get on with it and pass the ETS, they should go back to business as usual.

      I’m assuming there isn’t a 50-50 split on EVERY bill they’ll be voting on over the next few months.

      Sheesh.

    • Nathan says:

      02:05pm | 25/11/09

      I think they summed up this vote best on Sky News: that 35 people were prepared to vote for someone who wasnt Turnbull. Amazing!! Turnbull is toast, unless he can reorganise the party…..I just dont think he is built that way.

    • Glen says:

      02:07pm | 25/11/09

      Whatever happens KRudd will run riot and severely damage Australia.  Much of the damage will be irreparable.  The costs will, of course, be paid by the citizens of Australia.

    • alteria says:

      02:10pm | 25/11/09

      Justin 1:49, your post is so full of errors it’s hard to start correcting. The ETS is a ‘cap and trade’ system that caps the national carbon output at 2011 with reductions for future years. We will all be charged more for the electricity we use, yes, but is there a single household that couldn’t cut its wasteful electricity use and still have all the essential use? I doubt it. Less electricity will be used, less CO2 will be produced. People still smoke and drink and drive cars too fast, yes, but much less than they used to, arguably in part because of economic (and health) disincentives.

    • Garry says:

      02:11pm | 25/11/09

      Lots of issues with the liberals right now and are a spent group at the moment. But what I also find very interesting is the mass hesteria is being caused by this in the press. Are we so judgemental of the opposition and less judgemental of the government now that Labor is in?

      There is still so many things not being put to the government to clarify the impact to the country, are the media companies afraid to ask the questions?

      And really a journalist who writes…Samantha Maiden of The Australian writes on Twitter: turnbull has just walked into office with dep COS credlin. looks really upset’ .... what a dep COS credin???

    • Joel B1 says:

      02:11pm | 25/11/09

      “even my daughter (6) knows there’s something wrong with the air”

      Bleugh! politics of fear!

    • Rick says:

      02:13pm | 25/11/09

      I think “Climategate” has raised the stakes somewhat RT. I suspect we are likely to go to Copenhagen as a laughing stock if we ratify this ETS in any form after this crisis at the CRU really takes hold. Fudging figures, bullying dissenters and editors and leaning on interpretation of numbers isn’t really letting the science speak for itself.

    • Joel B1 says:

      02:19pm | 25/11/09

      “The Tasmanian Premier expects the state to benefit from the proposed carbon trading scheme.
      David Bartlett says the state generates 75 per cent of its energy from renewable sources”

      Typical duplicitous Labor, it’s true, but we will still pay for the ETS ‘cause for some bizarre reason our lovely dams ain’t exempt.

      Why do you think I oppose the ETS? Criminal reporting by ABC online (again)

    • neil says:

      02:20pm | 25/11/09

      CONGRATULATIONS Turnbull!

    • Ian Stewart says:

      02:32pm | 25/11/09

      A note sent to Alex Hawke,

      Dear Alex,
      As my local member, I am writing to urge you to reject any legislation or deal relation to the imposition of a carbon dioxide tax.  While the world’s temperature might be increasing slightly, that is what happens in nature.  Any temperature change is not solely due to the activities of man as the climate change zealots would have us believe.
      The first question that I always ask of them is: ā€œwhy is Greenland called Greenland?ā€  The answer is that when it was discovered by the Europeans about 1000 years ago, that’s what it was: green – there was grass everywhere, because it was a time of global warming.  Then sun spot activity or lack of it, caused a period of cooling to follow, that peaked probably in the middle ages.  Since then the temperature has been somewhat steady, if not increasing slightly, despite the industrial activity and cars.
      Photo-synthesis relies on the generation of carbon dioxide to feed plant growth of all kinds.  Plants take in CO2 and emit oxygen.  All animal life takes in oxygen and emits CO2.  Volcano eruptions and similar catastrophes, both on land (visible) or under the sea are massive generators of gasses that might cause temperature change.  There are continual eruptions under the sea, even today.
      Back in the Ice Age, the level of CO2 in the atmosphere was 20,000 times what it is today.  That’s because the minimal plant life was unable to soak up the CO2 and convert it to oxygen.  And so it goes on. Current CO2 content is 0.04%, Nitrogen 78%, Oxygen 18%, water vapour 2-4% balance, Argon 0.9%, others, less.
      The climate change ā€œreligionā€ is continuing to prosper, inventing various scenarios, so that they can all stay in ā€œworkā€ as misguided as it is.
      Australia’s ceasing to produce CO2 will do nothing to alleviate the situation because we are so miniscule in world terms.  The whole position here is being run by Kevin Rudd’s ego because he sees himself as a big player on the world stage, far greater than he actually is.
      Al Gore is a phoney hypocrite.  His house in Tennessee is one of the biggest private electricity consumers in USA using 10 times the consumption of the average home in USA per year. Never mind his private jet that flies him around spreading his fabric of deceit.
      Australia is likewise a massive hypocrite.  We are mining and selling coal and natural gas as quickly as we can, causing the end users of these fuels to emit CO2 although it is doing less damage that the zealots would have you believe.  We have not yet built even one nuclear power station, as source of clean energy, and we have 40% of the world’s known uranium, and we are digging that up and selling it, to the anger of the Greens and other left-wingers.
      What about agriculture?  A farmer who has several 1,000 head cattle could be up for many $1,000’s per year because of a proposed animal emission tax.
      This whole scenario is anti business, anti the west and nothing more than taxing people on a wild goose chase.  It is also the possible start of world government, as the learned Lord Monckton stated, if the Copenhagen agreement is signed.  We will have lost our rights as a sovereign nation.  We will also have committed to give 0.7% ($7 billion) of our GDP per year to who knows who to do with as they wish.
      Best regards,

    • Rick says:

      02:46pm | 25/11/09

      RE: Al Gore
      Ian Stewart neglected to mention Gore has also been listed as one of the largest shareholders in Occidental Petroleum as well as head of a major alternative energy company.

    • GeeJay says:

      03:04pm | 25/11/09

      I hopeTurnbull can stick it out,but he can not do much until he can rid the party of the red neck Howardites..Stick it up them Malcolm!!!

    • Weary says:

      03:05pm | 25/11/09

      Note from Elected Member to Ian Stewart.
      Thank you for your letter. Our Party went to the last election with a policy on climate change that provided for an ETS. Most Australians now agree that it is time for action on Climate Change. That is why our Party has over recent weeks negotiated in good faith to secure a number of improvements to the Government’s proposed ETS. Over the last two days, we have reached agreement to press forward with passing ETS legislation which will: reduce green-house emissions;  protect households from cost impacts: and give us a good position to negotiate with other nations at Copenhagen.

      This is a bi-partisan issue and as circumstances change, we and the Labour Government will continue to negotiate in good faith over further gains to be made in the future.

      I should add that it is quite untrue to refer to farming activity, as I am sure you already know it is excluded form the ETS. I also hope you were listening to Palriament today: if Lord Monckton’s views were in any way sensible or held even one single grain of truth, by now we would have heard with abundant clarity from all of the great nation states, including USA, France, Germany, China, Russia and India, none of whom are remotely likely to give up any of their authority as Monckton pretends to believe.

      In thanking you for your letter, I note that a large portion of it seems to have been copied from the some one or other of the sillier, more hysterical conspiracy websites. In thinking about your views, you may wish to read more widely about Climate Change for example from the Business Council of Australia and other sites, where better information about climate change can be found.

      Yours etc etc
      Weary elected member of Aus.

    • JAYVEE says:

      03:30pm | 25/11/09

      Never mind.
      All we will shortly see is Malcolm catching the latest version of ‘Leadership Flue’ (which will render him even more incapable than he already is) so he can make a dignified exit.
      Hockey will have to do absolutely nothing and will probable come through all of this without even crumpling his hanky or reaching for a box of Kevin’s Eco friendly and now patented ‘Sorry’ tissues.
      Penny in the meantime has probably ordered that all emails regarding Climate Change from now on in must have an auto self-destruct code in them. Just in case she also gets caught with her Dragon Green G string around her ankles.
      To divert attention the sport of running around in ever-decreasing circles will henceforth be fully funded with a billion or so grant until it reaches full Olympic status. That is in addition of course to the billions we are about send to the likes of China, India, Brazil to try and find a cure for their laughing sickness outbreaks, caused by watching the Australian Government system in fully deluded action.
      Now please pass me a few boxes of Kevvies Sorry Tissues.
      I apologise to the nation for voting all of these moonbeams in.
      Sorry about that!

    • Justin says:

      03:41pm | 25/11/09

      Alteria, Brokenrecord and insand
      Cap and trade??? The legislation didn’t even make it to the light of day before the Government bowed to pressure and agreed to allow the release of more pollution in to the atmosphere. When the crunch comes and REAL emission cuts are due to be made, how many more amendments will be made? How much more polluting will be allowed to continue. Taxes are a narrow minded way of attempting to control an outcome. To this end it is has proven to fail, still more people die, not less, due to things that are bad for our health and environment, taxes have not stopped nor slowed these rates of death, FACT! Real change is needed not taxes, are we so bereft of creativity and thought that we truly believe that tax is the single way to deal with all of the challenges the world faces. Carbon alone is the reason for the ETS yet there is no proof that carbon alone is the cause. Further, for you that question my knowledge on this subject yet in the same breathe tell me that carbon is a pollutant it is you that needs to understand science. I will state it slowly and clearly carbon is not a pollutant.

    • iansand says:

      04:09pm | 25/11/09

      Pssst.  Justin.  It’s not a tax.

    • RT says:

      04:21pm | 25/11/09

      Rick 2:13pm and other CC denialists have been all over the blogosphere in recent days with their ‘climate gate’ beat up. Sorry, people, it’s not the magic bullet that kills of AGW theory that you are hoping for.  Trying to make out that it’s all about Al Gore won’t cut it, either. You wonder why your campaign is not getting much traction - look no further than the beat ups you’re trying to perpetrate.  You come across as paranoid obsessives.  Justin 3:41 - Perhaps you could tell us what your climate change action plan is.

    • LG says:

      05:09pm | 25/11/09

      Oh it’s just the Parl Secs. I realise the reporting was acurate but I want shadow ministry resignations to actually mean names people actually care about.
      My bad.

    • Tosher says:

      05:11pm | 25/11/09

      Justin, the more posts you make the more really silly things you say. You are mistaken, or ill-informed, or too lazy to check.

      Carbon is short for all the main Greenhouse gasses, CO2 among them. After decades of work by many governments and many scientists, it’s now known with confidence the Greenhouse effect is real, that global temperatires are rising, and that man-made gasses (CO2 and the others) are the main contibutors. It’s quite beyond denial, well understood around the world - how, why, about how much and roughly when. Go away, look at the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change -a really good look - and then have a long hard think before you come back with any more of your total tosh.

    • Justin says:

      05:22pm | 25/11/09

      iansands. The goverment taking money from you is, wait for it…... a tax! Whoa a revelation…

      RT there are many ways, more then can be articulated on this blog, start with the reversal of deforestation, wave and hydro technologies, DC wavelength capture, solar wind and yes even nuclear technologies that will slow or lower emission outputs for no more cost then we have in electricity generation today. However a better understanding of the root cause would be the crucial ingredient, yes natural heating and cooling of the earth occurs but I believe there is a real man made contribution. Carbon some yes but reversing deforestation and vegetation regrowth can address carbon reduction, what is the manufacturing of chloride based products producing as far as pollutants? It’s not carbon but something much more sinister. Amounts of more harmful elements are being burnt, produced or are disposed as by-products during the manufacture of oil and coal fired electricity. Is it carbon? Alone no carbon is an essential gas required for life, without carbon plant life would die thus plants could not reproduce oxygen. Through better understanding we can create a cure.

    • Rick says:

      05:23pm | 25/11/09

      Oh really!
      Is this what you mean by no traction?

      CBS NEWS NOVEMBER 24
      CONGRESS MAY PROBE LEAKED GLOBAL WARMING E-MAILS
      Posted by Declan McCullagh (AP)

      “A few days after leaked e-mail messages appeared on the Internet, the U.S. Congress may probe whether prominent scientists who are advocates of global warming theories misrepresented the truth about climate change”

      WALL STREET JOURNAL
      CLIMATE EMAILS STOKE DEBATE
      Scientists’ Leaked Correspondence Illustrates Bitter Feud over Global Warming
      Nov 23, 2009
      By KEITH JOHNSON
      The scientific community is buzzing over thousands of emails and documents—posted on the Internet last week after being hacked from a prominent climate-change research center—that some say raise ethical questions about a group of scientists who contend humans are responsible for global warming

      UK TELEGRAPH
      CLIMATEGATE: THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF ‘ANTHROPOGENIC GLOBAL WARMING’?
      By James Delingpole, Politics,November 20th, 2009
      If you own any shares in alternative energy companies I should start dumping them NOW. The conspiracy behind the Anthropogenic Global Warming myth has been suddenly, brutally exposed after a hacker broke into the computers at the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit and released 61 megabytes of confidential files onto the internet. When you read some of those files – including 1079 emails and 72 documents – you realise just why the boffins at CRU might have preferred to keep them confidential. (Suggests) Conspiracy, collusion in exaggerating warming data, possibly illegal destruction of embarrassing information, organised resistance to disclosure, manipulation of data, private admissions of flaws in their public claims and much more.
      . And from March this year before the “science” was threatened:
      U.N. ‘Climate Change’ Plan Would Likely Shift Trillions to Form New World Economy
      Friday, March 27, 2009
      By George Russell
      A United Nations document on “climate change” that will be distributed to a major environmental conclave next week envisions a huge reordering of the world economy, likely involving trillions of dollars in wealth transfer, millions of job losses and gains, new taxes, industrial relocations, new tariffs and subsidies, and complicated payments for greenhouse gas abatement schemes and carbon taxes — all under the supervision of the world body.
      Now you know why there are people like Nick Minchin and Kevin Andrews up in arms.
      There is a growing library of this stuff - I just picked a few MSM’s to keep the kettle boiling.

      Don’t get me wrong, I am all for punishing polluters and environmental terrorists. But I am 100% against the public footing the bill!

    • watty says:

      05:31pm | 25/11/09

      R.T perhaps you can explain how YOU are going to CONTROL clmate change which I understand to have been a natural occurrrence over the milleniums.

      I have just watched a program from National Geographic that states the rainforests of the world are dying because of ;lack of Co2 due to deforestation yet Ruud and Turnbull suggest Co2 is a very dangerous pollutant.

      Are both correct?

    • KeIthY says:

      05:58pm | 25/11/09

      There is no leadership issue: it’s all infected anger to rally support for a divided party! What a pity the tryhard upper-middle-class gave up when education and housing became too much of a joke to support them just for the sake of dropping the name at dinner parties, darling! The Libs cannot take this to the election and think they are the moral superiors by giving extra tax-payers money to coal: Kevin has sliced and diced this divided rabble to shreds and the metrosexuals can only dry into their collective crack-pipes…Mwahahahahahahahahaha!

    • Brett says:

      06:05pm | 25/11/09

      The whole ETS debate just doesn’t make sense to me. 60% of Carbon Emissions are from forest/bush fires, while others contributors are burning coal (for power) and petroleum products (cars etc).
      So why not have Nuclear power and Electric Cars?
      Nuclear Power is being used in Europe.
      Bush fires which produce CO2 emissions occur naturally, so what if humans were not here to put out those fires, image the CO2 then.
      China produces most of the consumables for the World so it’s a little unfair to say China is mostly to blame. Remember it is us that is using all those goods they make.
      Anyway while those countries like China and India stay out of this ETS they will have the competitive edge on all the Western Countries. They will continue to produce cheaper and more efficiently than we can.

    • 6c legs says:

      06:16pm | 25/11/09

      Jayvee @ 3.30pm.  There must be at least one wealthy middle aged male out there that your post didn’t insult. (Kevin Andrews! LOL)

      What is it with the few people who so resent those who have been wronged being apologised to? Is it that their parents belted them (?) so badly when they were kids? Did they have all compassion erased by brutal parents?

      I’m no longer surprised anymore to find that Climate Change deniers are also the few Anti Apology cranks, it must have something to do with “them” missing the compassion gene…

    • Loonies says:

      07:01pm | 25/11/09

      6c, I do wonder sometimes if they have to pass the “Lunar Landing Hoax!” course before being admitted to the inner sanctum of “Climate Change Con!”

      It’s quite hard to understand how any adult who went to school and can use a PC can swallow such stuff, really. But somehow we have to find a way to either help them understand, or limit the damage they can do.

    • Justin says:

      07:24pm | 25/11/09

      Tosher I believe that there is a man made element to climate change however you also need to understand all points of view and this is how I am continuing to formulate my opinion, which by the way isn’t set in stone. You refer to the “Greenhouse” effect which is essentially the pollutant gases trapping heat in the atmosphere. This term has not been used for many years. Why you ask? Well the answer is that is has been acknowledged that the theory is flawed and radiation continues to escape the atmosphere at similar levels to previously recorded, hence the name change to carbon pollution or carbon emissions. All well documented if you are willing to research all points of view not just a narrow field of view. My concern is that if we are to reduce carbon levels to such an extent that vegetation is effected then the potential is for the cure to worse then the disease. If we can understand greater the impact of all pollutants and cleanse them prior to use or change the materials we use it will have a more profound impact on the environment then a tax that will make the bankers, lawyers and accounts richer but not save our planet.

    • iansand says:

      07:36pm | 25/11/09

      Justin Why it is a tax?  If I open a hole in the ground to extract minerals the permit to do that requires me to remediate (a word I hate) the hole.  It is a cost factored into every mining project.  If you see a DCF for a resource project you will see a big blip at the end.  Or if you see the mining permit you will probably see a need for some sort of guarantee.  Mining projects are expected to remedy the damage.

      Until now, this sort of requirement has not been imposed on industry generally.  They have escaped responsibility for the damage done by their by-products.  The ETS changes that.  The cost of a form of pollution will now be factored in.  Accountants take the cost of emissions into their projections when they cost projects.

      Remediation will now be factored into costings.  If it is cheaper to reduce emissions than buy a permit, emissions will be reduced

      It puzzles me that conservatives have so much difficulty with the efficaciousness of market based solutions.

    • Tosher says:

      08:14pm | 25/11/09

      For readers of Justin, who claims grandly
      “Greenhouse” “This term has not been used for many years”
      In short:  “No, I was too lazy to read up anything from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as I know it all already without looking anything up and I can have any opinion I like without bothering to work out how or why”

      Ignorance can be fixed, but does require some effort. Laziness plus misleading ignorance only leads to pointless silliness.  The only common thread of Justin’s views are their unfounded, ill-argued, misleading and unsupported silliness.  Plus he can’t or won’t find the IPCC.

      Result: You’re wastin our time, Justin, and you’ve exhausted any scant fund of good will as well. Take your unfounded, ignorant, misleading argument with you on the way out.

    • watty says:

      03:51pm | 26/11/09

      What an ill informed pompous ass is Alex Hawke MP who for some reason is “weary”

      Whilst being dismissve of Monckton and any other sceptic and suggesting more informed reading material should be studied he seems to ignore the call for a full Senate Inquiry into the “leaked/hacked ” documentation in the. U.S. and the admission by Global Warming zealot Monbliot of the “Guardian” who recognised the validity of the documents he had read.

      Perhaps the “weary” Member might like to take the public into his confidence and diclose the details of the “agreement” between the Coalition and Labor negotiated under the Wong MacFarlane/Wong “cone of silence” but I bet he can’t

      From what I have heard and am still hearing from the Senate debate neither side knows what they have agreed to or are totally unwilling to share the information with the voter.

      Of coursre as Mr Hawke is a Labor Member and world reknowned climatologist we should just accept what he says on this matter and look up what the Business Council of Australia has to say.Such a large reference source to advocate?

      I was going to ask why not the IPCC but then I realised they have been compromised by that unfortunate leak.

      You are not “weary” MrHawke…you are wearisome.

    • Wink Wink says:

      04:15pm | 26/11/09

      Jeeze Watty, you’re a bit slow on the uptake, eh. Leg bein pulled royally there mate, though I reckon Weary is on the money and you are one of the conspiracy hysterics.

      Never mind mate. Just keep takin them pills, they’ll kick in eventually.

    • Scoop says:

      05:10pm | 26/11/09

      Shock Horror!

      Leading Punch scribbler sucked in by cheeky spoof!

      Audience collapses in howls of derisive laughter!

      Poor old Watty, what - only 2 watts - bit of a dim bulb aren’t we?

    • watty says:

      06:41pm | 26/11/09

      Aw shucks Spoof and Wink Wink I feel so bad .Falling for a “spoof”  letter about a less than bright Labor Member….how could I.?

      Now which is worse ...me falling for it and being able to give the worse than useles Hawke a spray or you two morons being totally deceived by Rudd and Wong about the great “Global Warming Disaster’ ,Wong deliberately falsifying figures in her Coastal Tides predictions,Kevin’s imaginery “4000 scientists”
      Kevin’s prediction of 750,000 coastal homes lost against Wong’s top bid of 250,000. and of course the icing on the cake Kevin’s promise that” action against Global Warming will
      only cost Australian Working Families $10.00”

      If anyone needs tablets and a bit more light on the subject I would suggest you look to yourselves before making total tossers out of yourselves( though it may be a a bit late for that)

      He who laughs last…....

    • JAK OZ expat says:

      01:15am | 27/11/09

      these hard core break away right-wing christians figure they have nothing to lose…cause’ god is on their side, will make the climate debate please go awayl and will also save the lib party.  Turnbull has shown he actually has some balls unlike these other dummy spitting &*#@ up eunichs.

      Thank Christ we might finally see some real action on climate change with a mechanism that will transition our wealthy economy in the coming decades into an even wealthier economy powered by more efficient technologies - rather than continuing with the aging crud we use today to generate power.

    • Michael says:

      09:52am | 27/11/09

      Wow! I watch in total shock how the Republican Party in the USA has completely lost the plot and gone back to the 1950’s narrow-minded, religious extremist, Sarah Palin style thinking (if you can call what she does “thinking”).
      And now it’s happening here in Australia. The LIberal Party has become the Sarah Palin Party. “Oh my God! The ITS will cost us some money! More taxes!  Never mind the planet, we will not pay a single cent extra to help save it! No taxes! No economic stimulus! No nothing!
      Do you idiots even know what the ITS is? In fact, do you even believe that the earth is more than 5000 years old? Heck, do you actually have a single thought that wasn’t put there by the coal companies or the climate change dinosaurs?

    • orangecrush says:

      09:20pm | 28/11/09

      The fear-mongering here about the catastrophic effects of the ETS reminds me of something ...... oh, yes - the hysteria about the impact of the GST!!  I hated Labor when they used such a tactic - appealing to the uneducated who couldn’t calculate 10% of anything and small business’s fear of paperwork (boy hasn’t small business just collapsed under the weight of the GST??).  Now I hate the “yesterday men” of the LNP fo remploying the same tactics.  Umm, it’s going to cost thousands of jobs, no millions; lamb will cost 3 trillion dollars an ounce, etc etc. 

      Have any of these deniers actually ever read a peer-reviewed scientific paper?  Do they know the difference between such a paper and an opinion article?  The only positive out of all this is that “yesterday’s men” will all be retired by the time the LNP is back in power.

      Oh yes, an isn’t Australia in such bad shape since Rudd took over .... wouldn’t you just rather be anywhere else in the world riding out the GFC?

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