The next 24 hours are critical for the bitterly divided Liberal Party. The Punch’s Tory Maguire is in Canberra and the team will be posting updates here through the day. Times are AEDT. Refresh this page for updates.

7.21pm: If he is elected as leader tomorrow, Abbott will ask for the ETS to be deferred, and if not deferred, rejected. “The party has a clear choice. It can vote for Malcolm and we will support the legislation. It can vote for me and we will reject the legislation. Or they can vote for Joe and we’ll have a conscience vote”.

Tony Abbott at his press conference. Happy snap by Tory Maguire.

7.19pm: Tony Abbott says he’s spent most of the day in discussions with Joe, says…

“It now seems pretty clear we could change the leader to Joe and these offensive bills could still go through the parliament. I will be a candidate for the leadership tomorrow.”

7.17pm: Ian “Macca” Macfarlane says he’s in the dark - “they’re not telling me anything”

7pm: Nick Minchin has just released this statement:

Speculation tonight by Laurie Oakes on Channel 9 news that I support the proposition that Labor’s CPRS Bill pass through the Senate upon a change of leadership are inaccurate. I continue to support the proposition that the Bill should be referred to a Senate Inquiry, to report back after the Copenhagen conference.


6.35pm: ABC news reporting the deal to install Hockey as leader includes Liberal Senators being allowed a conscience vote on the ETS, meaning it would pass. But David Speers at Sky says it’s being discussed, no decision yet.

6.10pm: Nine’s Laurie Oakes says there’s mutterings Nick Minchin may agree to pass the ETS tomorrow once Turnbull is gone as leader.

5.52am: Back in the Senate - 70 amendments done, only 140 to go. By the time it’s complete Parliament House could have ocean views.

5.45pm: Now reported Family First Senator Steve Fielding is in Joe Hockey’s office with Mr Hockey, Nick Minchin and Peter Dutton - discussing the Royal Commission? Probably not.

4:59pm: AAP reports key figures from the left and right are meeting to sort things out before tomorrow’s meeting. Meeting in Joe Hockey’s office reportedly includes: Federal Liberal Party director Brian Loughnane, and MPs Greg Hunt, Christopher Pyne, Andrew Robb, Nick Minchin, Julie Bishop, Tony Abbott and Peter Dutton.

4.49pm: Bronwyn Bishop writes for The Punch: Malcolm, we want the leadership back please.

4.40pm: Audio of Turnbull’s press conference live now, courtesy of Sky News. Listen here.

3.49pm: Reports on Turnbull’s doorstop at The Australian, The Age, and The Daily Telegraph. From Malcolm Farr at the Tele:

Mr Turnbull was careful in how he explained the outcome of his leadership meeting with Mr Hockey this afternoon.

He said: “He (Mr Hockey) said he would support me in the spill movement. He said he would vote against the spill.”

3.46pm: Steve Fielding walked into the media scrum immediately after Turnbull had finished speaking and called for a Royal Commission into climate science. Seriously.

3.37pm: Recap: Turnbull says Hockey has assured him of his support in a vote on a leadership spill in the partyroom tomorrow morning. If the partyroom votes to declare the leadership vacant, then Turnbull says he will stand for re-election. It is still unclear if Hockey will run against Turnbull but he is widely expected to.

A strong line of argument Hockey could use is that with Turnbull’s leadership doomed, it is Hockey’s duty as a committed moderate to run against right-winger Tony Abbott.

3.36pm: From Turnbull:

Joe came to see me for a chat.

We actually had a meeting on the weekend that didn’t make it into the press because neither of us rang up a journalist beforehand.

Joe and I are very good friends.

3.31pm: Photo from Turnbull’s doorstop. The big guns are there.

Malcolm Turnbull declaring he will stand for the leadership

3.29pm: Turnbull says Hockey has assured him he will support him in a vote on whether to have a spill. However, Hockey is likely run against him if the partyroom votes to spill the leadership.

3.27pm: I am the leader, and I will be standing tomorrow - Turnbull

3.24pm: Waiting for Malcolm:

He's due any minute

3.22pm: No TV? Sky News will be streaming the Turnbull doorstop here.

3.15pm: Malcolm Turnbull will speak to the media at 3.25pm. ABC Online is reporting Hockey has told Turnbull it is his intention to run for the Liberal leadership - adding Hockey is getting More here.

2.57pm: AAP reports Liberal Party director Brian Loughnane has just finished a long meeting with Joe Hockey.

2.51pm: Meanwhile back in the Senate - Bob Brown is still talking…

2.48pm: Sam Maiden has another update on The Australian here.

“Can you leave Lucy and I alone now. If you want to know what Joe Hockey is doing ask Joe Hockey,” Mr Turnbull said as he exited the building.

Read on here.

2.42pm: When the going gets tough, the tough go to lunch - Turnbull’s office confirms he has gone out for a bite to eat.

2.39pm: Spill movies ... Tweeters are suggesting names for movies about the spill. Great suggestions include Crouching Abbott, Hidden Hockey, The Day the Earth Stood Spill, and Honey I Shrunk The Liberal Party. Some people are having trouble with the link - to see the thread, go to Twitter Search and type the word “spillmovies” in the search field.

2.37pm: Another photo of Turnbull leaving Parliament House, driven by wife Lucy.

Photo: Gary Ramage, News Ltd

2.29pm: Peter Lewis of Essential Media has filed polling analysis for The Punch. Excerpt:

The polling confirms what we all supected – the nation is over Malcolm Turnbull, it can’t abide Tony Abbott and it doesn’t really know who Julie Bishop or Andrew Robb are.

More here.

2.23pm: AAP quotes Malcolm Turnbull as saying “nothing has changed” before he left Parliament House.

2.12pm: The Hockey-Turnbull meeting “did not end well”, according to David Speers. Meanwhile, Scott Morrison MP has tweeted he “is in the Parliamentary chamber where it is very quiet”.

2.03pm: Lucy Turnbull has just driven Malcolm Turnbull out of the building in a BMW. And here’s a photo:

The Turnbulls leaving Parliament House moments ago

1.59pm: Ninemsn has video of Joe Hockey returning to his office after speaking with Turnbull today. Screengrab below - you can watch it here.

Joe Hockey - caught on camera by Nine

1.43pm: George Brandis - not happy.

1.40pm: Barnaby Joyce strolls past and says: “I think I’ve had enough of this, I’m going to sort it out!” Just to be clear - I think he might have been joking.

1.36pm: New audio from Sky - Helen McCabe speaks to Glenn Milne, Piers Akerman, and Steve Price about the Liberal crisis. Listen here.

1.35pm: Movement at the station? Security guards getting less and less friendly…

1.32pm: Update from Malcolm Farr at The Daily Telegraph:

Mr Hockey could have to compromise his support for an ETS were he to take a shot at the leadership, or he would lose the support of the right.

1.29pm: Updated news story from Samantha Maiden at The Australian here.

1:20pm: Stressed-looking Turnbull press staffer Lis Davies ducking back into the office.

1.10pm: What Australia is tweeting - a screengrab of from trendsmap.com, which looks at topics being discussed on Twitter by geographic location. See it for yourself here.

What Australia is tweeting

1.09pm: Maybe he was at Aussies the whole time having a latte.

1.05pm: Apparently Hockey has evaded us all and is back in his office. How can you miss Joe Hockey?

12.59pm: The Punch, suffering insecurity about which press camp will win, is hedging bets and alternating between the two.

And now we're indoors

12.58pm: The waiting game ... one miserable press camp, sitting under a tree:

Waiting for Joe

12.53pm: Oh dear. The internet has gotten hold of the story. See this graphic. The last photo references the seal with a bucket meme.

12.48pm: Journos told “either move voluntarily or the security guards will assist you in moving on”. Now outside and its bloody cold.

12.44pm: Tony Abbott speaks to reporters: “There will be a spill tomorrow, but Joe Hockey is a big boy, he can speak for himself.”

And here’s a picture:

Abbott tries to get into the lifts

12.39pm: Some hacks being harboured in Warren Truss’s office nearby. Seeking protection from patrolling Parly House guards.

12.37pm: Now two camps, one at either exit, eyeing each other nervously…

12.34pm: Spotted, sports minister strolling past scrum looking like she’s stepped straight out of a Portmans ad. Jeans, thongs, pony tail, grin.

12.31pm: Two exits from Turnbull’s office. Hilarious scenes as press pack debates which one Hockey will use…

12.31pm: A harried-looking Lib director Brian Loughnane striding past Turnbull’s office.

12.29pm: Sam Maiden at The Australian has an update on developments here. Excerpt:

Joe Hockey is holding a meeting with Liberal Party leader Malcolm Turnbull, having walked into his office immediately after holding talks with a trio of party powerbrokers including Nick Minchin.

More ...

12.25pm: Pic just in - the scene outside Turnbull’s office in Parliament House.

Reckon there's much interest?

12.18pm: And the other reported visit: Tony Abbott is in Julie Bishop’s office.

12.14pm: Joe Hockey has just gone into Malcolm Turnbull’s office.

12.13pm: Strange times in Parliament House - it’s nearly lunch time and Aussies is almost deserted.

12.09pm: New video of Alexander Downer sharing his views on the malaise in the Liberal Party. You can read his piece for today’s Advertiser here.

11.59am: Steve Fielding says he has held a Family First partyroom meeting to discuss with “me, myself and I” the possibility of wooing climate change sceptics to his party. “We’re going to discuss accepting disinfected (sic) members from Labor and Liberal whether they want to join Family First,” Fielding said.

11.33am: Hockey should expect a baptism of fire if he winds up leader. Stephen Smith just said if Hockey does become leader, and the ETS is delayed beyond Copenhagen “that will be Mr Hockey’s first sell-out to the climate change deniers.”

11.16am: Queensland Liberal Senator Ian Macdonald now making a long-winded complaint about the Government wasting time in the Senate.

11.13am: On another matter altogether, Foreign Minister Stephen Smith has announced the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) will be held in Perth in 2011. Julie Bishop, another West Australian, was briefly overcome with bi-partisan excitement in the House of Reps.

11.10am: Victory for those Senators who don’t want to be debating at 4 o’clock tomorrow morning. The Senate will rise at 10pm and resume in the morning.

11.07am: For some light relief, check out Fake Steve Fielding on Twitter.

11am: Just thinking Kevin Rudd must be so cheesed off he’s in the US meeting Barack Obama instead of here waiting with the rest of us for The Senate to decide what time to take a lunch break. Poor PM.

10.43am: Penny Wong telling the Senate the Liberals are just stalling for time by arguing over procedure. They’ve been at it for an hour now - arguing over whether to sit through the night.

10.35am: Nick Xenophon quoting sleep experts, who say being awake more than 18 hours can induce similar effects to intoxication - not a good state to debate such important legislation says the South Australian Independent.

10.28am: The Senate is currently absorbed in a stoush over the sitting hours. Bob Brown wants the debate cut off at 10pm tonight, to resume tomorrow. The Nationals Senator Barnaby Joyce has just called the ALP “mercenary, belligerent and arrogant.”

10.25am: Things are getting hot under the collar in the Senate. Labor’s Chris Evans has just roared across the chamber at Nick Minchin: “Your treachery has been on display all week”. Fellow tragics can watch the Senate debate here.

10.20am: Annabel Crabb has filed her first column for the ABC, in which she compares Turnbull to a suicide bomber.

9.56am: Audio of the AM Agenda program from Sky News, with guests Steve Ciobo, Martin O’Shannessy from Newspoll and former ALP secretary Tim Gartrell live now. Listen.

9.38am: Former Foreign Minister, and self-confessed once disastrous leader of the Opposition, Alexander Downer has just told 3AW on Turnbull’s leadership: “You’re not just the leader of the people who agree with you.”

9.37am: Double dissolution chatter. Former ALP secretary Tim Gartrell was on Sky News this morning. Samantha Maiden wraps up what he said here at The Australian: KEVIN Rudd’s chief strategist at the 2007 election says there is a “buzz” around a possible early poll and believes the PM is open to the idea. More here.

9.27am: Former Lib leader John Hewson on ABC TV says Hockey is in danger of terminating his political career early if he chooses to contest a leadership ballot tomorrow. He accused the Lib rebels of “gross disloyalty in normal terms.”

9.09am: David Speers of Sky News says on Twitter: Interesting theory doing Liberal rounds: Turnbull loses, quits, creates new party targeting around 25 marginal Liberal seats!

9.05am: And another. Ian “Macca” Macfarlane said: “I’ll be supporting Malcolm Turnbull.”

9.01am: At least someone likes him. Family First Senator Steve Fielding had some praise for Turnbull this morning. “At least he’s had the honour to be consistent pretty well all the way through,” he told reporters in Canberra. “What did the coalition expect when they gave a green light a couple of months ago? ... That was wrong.”

8.48am: “The Senate has a mind of its own and it’d be a brave person to predict what would happen,” Mitch Fifield said on ABC TV.

8.38am: Links to key news and commentary from today’s papers are here. And if you missed it, Malcolm Turnbull’s piece for The Punch from Friday evening has over 250 comments on it and counting.

8.23am: Tony Abbott says he’s “certainly not over-confident” about prising the leadership from Malcolm Turnbull. “No responsible opposition can let a scheme like this get through the Senate without much greater scrutiny,” he said.

The government is now talking of a possible all-night sitting of the Senate in an attempt to force a vote on the ETS before tomorrow’s Liberal leadership spill. Greens leader Bob Brown is opposed to an all-night session.

8.11am: Penny Wong on AM. “If Mr Hockey now supports delaying [the ETS], by his own words he is betraying the national interest.” Pressed on whether a double dissolution would be the only way to secure passage of the legislation, the Climate Change Minister could only say it was in the hands of the Liberal Party.

7.54am: Early online poll results from The Daily Telegraph:

Describe this image

Will update this later. See the story and cast your vote here.

7.17am: Peter van Onselen on ABC radio says Turnbull has created campaign fodder for the government. In his column today in The Australian van Onselen said Turnbull would “go down in history as one of the worst Liberal leaders since the party was formed in 1944”. Asked what the ETS position will be if Hockey becomes leader, he says: “Who knows?”

6.55am: It’s a Downer… He was once leader of the party and an ally of Howard’s - and he’s a South Australian Liberal, so Alexander Downer is well positioned to comment on the challenges facing the party. Here’s an excerpt of what he has to say today:

So as the Liberals go into this week and make a decision about their leadership, they face two excruciating dilemmas. The first is to decide whether to vote for an emissions trading scheme and try to use that as a launching pad for a new green image, or alternatively to vote down a scheme which will cost the Australian economy $120 billion with no assurance other countries will make a commensurate contribution to climate change policy.

The second dilemma is whether to ditch an able, successful Australian as their leader and take a punt on a third leader in two years, hoping that the new leader will be able to run a massive negative campaign against the emissions trading scheme between now and polling day.

Read more from Downer on the Liberal crisis here.

6.17am: Poll roundup. Newspoll shows a collapse in support for Turnbull on the preferred PM question - he’s now at 14 points, down from 22. Labor leads the Coalition in the two-party preferred vote by 57-43. Read it here.

Nielsen, meanwhile, reports Hockey is preferred Liberal leader by 36 per cent, over Turnbull at 32 per cent and Tony Abbot at 20 per cent. The poll also finds two-thirds of voters want Australia to have an emissions trading scheme. Read it here.

6.08am: National Party federal director Brad Henderson tells AM a previous trickle of anti-ETS correspondence has now turned into a torrent, with the party has receiving thousands of emails from people saying they are opposed to the scheme, supporting the Nats’ position.

Man in the distance: Malcolm Turnbull

239 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • fax software says:

      04:10pm | 16/09/10

      I apologise, but, in my opinion, you commit an error. I can prove it.

    • wii converter says:

      12:07am | 09/07/10

      Can be.

    • porno says:

      07:44pm | 29/05/10

      Awesome post! Nothing more to explain.

    • Joke says:

      08:15pm | 03/05/10

      Certainly. It was and with me. We can communicate on this theme.

    • Arturo Howard says:

      12:12am | 22/02/10

      It is useful to try everything in practice anyway and I like that here it’s always possible to find something new. smile

    • Byron Warren says:

      07:53pm | 19/02/10

      I really like when people are expressing their opinion and thought. So I like the way you are writing

    • Max Gross says:

      10:26am | 01/12/09

      @Dave of Canberra, et all: thx for the complements. I haven’t had this much fun since Maxine McKew clipped the Lying Rodent’s wings. At the risk of banging my own drum, I post regular invective at xenoxnews,com. Please feel free to join in the free speech free-for-all.

    • orangecrush says:

      07:45am | 01/12/09

      Funnier by the minute - Michale Johnson voting for Abbott because “leadership requires standing up for a position and having ‘spine’.  Abbott?  The human Kama Sutra - name an ETS poistion and he’s had it!

      Democracy Abbott-style - If you don’t agree with me and Nick then we’ll keep ‘spilling’ until you do ....

    • Deliah says:

      06:46am | 01/12/09

      We have barking mad Wilson Tuckey sprouting more toxic nonsense whilst Ian MacFarlane presents as the most sensible and decent man in the Liberal Party. May the forces of sanity and decency prevail this morning.

    • ClimateGate says:

      05:43am | 01/12/09

      Weak as water Punch.

      Cover the leaked CRU emails. 

      To all you others mocking and dismissing the (poorly named) Climategate saga, go and check the emails for yourself.  There’s a reason the Aussie left leaning MSM refuses to cover them (making bigger fools of themselves by the hour), the emails reveal a lot of dubious practices:

      Possible deletion of data subject to FOI
      Bullying editors daring to print peer reviewed scientific articles skeptical of climate change….there are lots more. 

      See for yourself damn it.

      Thank god for the Internet.

      - Hide the decline

    • Dave of Canberra says:

      04:41am | 01/12/09

      Agreed Max Gross, what a writer!  Quote of the year!

    • 6c legs says:

      10:25pm | 30/11/09

      Max Gross @9.25.
      Post.of.the.day!

      iansand @ 8.25.
      Okay if I send you the cleaning-the-redwine-from-laptop, bill…. [and to be able to laugh that hard after going through 200 plus posts is summin to be glad about.]

    • Julie Coker-Godson says:

      09:59pm | 30/11/09

      Is something drastic and catastrophic going to happen to us worldwide if the ETS is delayed until AFTER the Copenhagen gathering - after all its only next week!!  If not, then it should wait until after Copenhagen and in the meantime KRudd might try providing us all with the evidence to support ETS so we can all be informed not just the parliamentarians.

    • Deliah says:

      09:51pm | 30/11/09

      Matt@10.13pm. Rather than get in a state about the word denier, let me explain. I have a science background and have an internationally renowned scientist in my family. I am very much persuaded that climate change is real and something must be done about greenhouse emissions. This is the view shared by the majority. However, my focus in this thread has been about the absence of morality with certain members of the Liberal Party and the destruction they have caused. A careful analysis of the facts clearly show Michin and Abbott in a very unatrractive light. This reality is being realised by the public and Liberal MPs alike. I think we may have an interesting result tomorrow.

    • Geoff says:

      09:40pm | 30/11/09

      I don’t think Kevin is going to leave Deliah grin

    • Daniel says:

      09:32pm | 30/11/09

      Just read the latest at the top in relation to Ian McFarlane. The Liberals are totally in chaos meltdown mode. This should all push them into the political wilderness for another few elections which is always good news.

    • P.M.Garland says:

      09:23pm | 30/11/09

      Stand firm Malcolm!!!
      Joe Hockey is such a pragmatist if he stands for the Leadership tomorrow.He says yes to the ETS…but requests colleagues’  opinions about the subject onTwitter….how gauche!).
      And as for Tony Abbott,  he’s absolutely NOT a trustworthy candidate for the Leadership (and don’t forget his great” people skills”, especially with Bernie Banton).
      By the way, has anyone heard a peep from Julie Bishop?
      Perhaps she hopes her silence will save her from the guilliotine tomorrow!
      As for Minchin, I think he should retire…..he’s an old,disgruntled and bitter old hack…get ye to a knackery!
      All the best Malcolm….I hope you win!!!

    • Matt says:

      09:13pm | 30/11/09

      @Deliah

      “The climate is getting hotter for denier Nick Minchin. Rather ironic. Maybe he needs to borrow Tony Abbott’s bathing suit? He is spending a lot of time denying his agenda with little effect. “

      I’m VERY surprised none of the AGW theory advocates haven’t directly called sceptics holocaust deniers yet with your emotive use of the word “Denier” your simply insinuating that scepticism is akin to the severity of holocaust denial.

      Truly disgusting and pathetic.

      Sceptics is a fair and accurate term. I refrain from calling you ‘alarmist, cult member, high priestess of the church of climate change, malthusian’

      No the fair and accurate term would be AGW advocate.

      So instead of hooking your brain to Al Gore, Kevin Rudd, Malcolm Turnbull, Stephen Smith, Penny Wong who all willingly use the term ‘denier’ for propaganda purposes use the fair and accurate term. It kinda will make you seem more credible and easier to take seriously.

    • Daryl Saal says:

      08:48pm | 30/11/09

      Max Gross, you have said it better than I could have imagined,
      “Now, the LibNats have decided the best way to return to office is to shove skyrockets up their arses, rub mustard into their eyeballs, set themselves on fire and run screaming off a cliff’[.
      Please keep contributing.

    • Deliah says:

      08:47pm | 30/11/09

      BevB 9.19pm. You ask about the whereabouts of Christopher Pyne. Possibly he was sucked in by Minchin, realises he made a mistake and is wondering what to do. I think he may have company. There will be a few nervous MPs tonight.

    • Paul says:

      08:44pm | 30/11/09

      So, give the gig to cuddly (never to be elected) Joe, take it away from angry (never to be elected) Malcolm and yet, still jump between the sheets with (voter sexy) Kev. What’s changed? Still no chance of success at the next election and Kev still gets another notch in his bed post.

      I’ve voted Liberal all my considerable years, things might be about to change. I’d rather waste it than vote for these clowns if they hand us Rudd’s ETS.

      This blue is not about which of these 2 Bozos can lose the next election by the greatest margin. It’s about recognising that the ETS that Joe & Malcolm are helping Kev put together, may not be in the best interests of our country. Settle down, there’s no need to adhere to their timetable.

      Joe’s conscience vote is soft. Joe’s soft. He’s telling us all that we can change leadership in his favour but he’s still gonna roll over and see Kev’s mug in bed next to him in the morning.

      Bring on Tony! Hopefully, If Malcolm sticks to his guns and puts his hand up, the vote will be sufficiently diluted as to give Tony a chance.

    • Guy says:

      08:31pm | 30/11/09

      BundyGil, That was funny!

    • Deliah says:

      08:31pm | 30/11/09

      I think it is time the liars, backstabbers and their chief puppeteer left the building. Looks like it could be getting close to check mate. The better chess players usually win as does the side with the most integrity.

    • Max Gross says:

      08:25pm | 30/11/09

      A year out from the next federal poll, Australia’s feral right-wing Liberal-National Party coalition still can’t believe it is not the Government.

      After more than a decade of mendacity, scaremongering, bear-baiting, duck-shoving, arse-sniffing, god-bothering and pork-barrelling, these conservative, increasingly extremist “born-to-rule” ratbags were given the boot in the 2007 elections with their Supreme Leader, John W. Howard Horror losing not only his Prime Ministership but also his electoral seat in a historic defeat that saw the job pass to an obscure little pencil necked former diplomat named Kevin Rudd.

      The LibNats immediately turned on one another like starved sharks in a feeding frenzy the like of which has not been seen in this country since the great Labor split of 1955.

      Now, the LibNats have decided the best way to return to office is to shove skyrockets up their arses, rub mustard into their eyeballs, set themselves on fire and run screaming off a cliff.

    • BevB says:

      08:19pm | 30/11/09

      Where is Christopher Pyne in all this - usually he has a comment on everything - haven’t seen him anywhere.

    • LizzieB says:

      08:08pm | 30/11/09

      Please don’t let “Cockey Hockey “get in as oppostion leader. If Turnbull is unable to stay why not Tony Abbott.?

    • Steve says:

      07:51pm | 30/11/09

      Treasury has modelled the ETS as having a one-off inflationary impact of just over 1%. The GST had a one-off inflationary impact of over 3%. The “cost of the ETS tax” is simply uninformed scaremongering and hysterical.

    • M & M says:

      07:34pm | 30/11/09

      The hysteria surrounding the CFC’s & the forecasts of diabolical consequences of taking action on it. We are still waiting for these tamer diabolical forecasts to appear. Dejavu!
      The CEO of Pennwalt, the third largest CFC manufacturer in the U.S., talked of “economic chaos” if CFC use was to be phased out (Cogan, 1988). DuPont, the largest CFC manufacturer, warned that the costs in the U.S. alone could exceed $135 billion, and that “entire industries could fold” (Glas, 1989). The Association of European Chemical Companies warned that CFC regulation might lead to “redesign and re-equipping of large sectors of vital industry…, smaller firms going out of business… and an effect on inflation and unemployment, nationally and internationally
      (UNEP, 1994). A group of over two dozen industry experts estimated the total CFC phase-out cost in industrialized counties at $37 billion to business and industry, and $3 billion to consumers (Vogelsberg, 1997)

    • Joel B1 says:

      07:25pm | 30/11/09

      “Canberra is 550 to 700 meters above sea level. Sloppy, lazy journalism. “

      No, not sloppy or lazy, it’s just plain-jane biased.

      These journo’s think, no, they know they know best. Each and everyone comes with a built in “WE TELL YOU” not “we report”

      And if that’s not true, then they all think they’re smart enough to editorialise. But they’re wrong.


      publish that you hacks…

    • iansand says:

      07:25pm | 30/11/09

      If Abbott is the only alternative….

      My God.  This makes Ungrouped a real chance at achieving power.

    • steve says:

      07:22pm | 30/11/09

      A comment on Allan Jones.
      Did we hear boo about the ETS from this Liberal member shockjock when the Coalition began legislating the Shergold ETS?
      Not a word!
      It seems the policy was fantastic until the ALP won the election.

    • Anthony says:

      07:20pm | 30/11/09

      The Libs should be asking Minchin, Abetz and Abbott to resign and move away from the far right.. They will find many disaffected Liberals who abandoned them at the last election will come back. to them.

    • i says:

      07:11pm | 30/11/09

      Pete of Canberra - You left out “manifest fruitcake”.

    • ETS IS A TAX SCAM - NOT SCHEME says:

      07:01pm | 30/11/09

      Thank goodness for Nick Minchin.
      What a star performance - standing up to bully boy Turnbull.
      Awesome job Nick.
      Please continue to snap the rest of your party into reality.
      The ETS is BIG FAT GLOBAL TAX AUSTRALIANS DON’T WANT.

      AUSTRALIANS PAY ENOUGH TAX ALREADY.

    • Eno says:

      06:35pm | 30/11/09

      WOO HOO!!

      7.15 pm: Sky now reporting that Abbott is unhappy with the conscience vote alternative and is likely to run for the leadership despite his previous statements that he would step aside if Hockey ran.

      @Colgo - there’s a song from the kid’s movie Chicken Run called Flip - Flop - Fly.. perhaps that could be Abbot’s new anthem.

      I sent you a suggestion for tomorrow’s shenanigans by email but I think the aptly named Aussie band The Johnnys track ‘There’s Gonna be a Showdown’ is particularly apt given they were based back in the 80’s - just like Bronnie Bishop!!

    • Pete of Canberra says:

      06:36pm | 30/11/09

      Hockey will prove to be unelectable. Abbott is the only alternative. Regardless of what people think, in this populist and uninformed environment, Abbott is the only one with the intellectual capacity to replace Turnbull. He’s a thinker and one only has to read his columns to see his depth of intellect.

      And I’m a bloody Labor voter; but, to me, Abbott would provide a bit of head-kicking that the opposition needs - and woe betide anyone that would attempt to break ranks. We need a decent opposition and Hockey just doesn’t have the guts to impose his will.

      I just cannot understand the reluctance of the electorate to recognise Abbott’s clear leadership abilities, strength of conviction and his undoubted capacity to impose his will.

      He’s the only genuine candidate who has leadership written all over him. Unfortunately we’ll get Hockey - sad times and a denial of the need for real leadership.

    • scio says:

      06:34pm | 30/11/09

      WOW - another backflip from the Liberals .......... Minchin would accept a free vote but Abbott wont…......so will the rent-a-crowd tell us : do the Liberals actually have a policy or is it just written in pencil on the back of a coaster?

    • Deliah says:

      06:29pm | 30/11/09

      The climate is getting hotter for denier Nick Minchin. Rather ironic. Maybe he needs to borrow Tony Abbott’s bathing suit? He is spending a lot of time denying his agenda with little effect.

    • Rob says:

      06:10pm | 30/11/09

      There is a new soapy in the making- “Liberal musical chairs”  conducted by
      by dinosaurs - with pollution as the backdrop.

    • Mt says:

      06:07pm | 30/11/09

      Iam what is known as a swinging voter, the best party who will look after me and mine, I gave howard the flick and would of voted for Malcome, not now, you are lucky Rudd old boy .  PS   the Sky Poll results say a lot voters think the same

    • iansand says:

      05:56pm | 30/11/09

      I’m not challenging.  I’m standing.  Only politicians and the Press Gallery could take that one seriously.

    • Katea says:

      05:54pm | 30/11/09

      Australian politics.
      Better than the footy or the cricket.
      No time limits, no video ref etc;

    • Silva says:

      05:49pm | 30/11/09

      Is anyone keeping an eye on the boats?

    • John says:

      05:48pm | 30/11/09

      5.45pm: Now reported Family First Senator Steve Fielding is in Joe Hockey’s office with Mr Hockey, Nick Minchin and Peter Dutton - discussing the Royal Commission? Probably not.

      You jest and no chance for a Royal Commission.
      BUT,
      another reason for a Royal Commission on Climate Change: extract from a Times-on-line article headlined “Climate change data dumped”
      by Jonathan Leake, Environment Editor, posted Sunday

      “SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

      It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years. “

      Since these same scientists are principal authors and editors of IPCC climate science reports, where’s the credibility of these AGW conclusions based on models of “massaged” data? For an example, on a local scale, NIWA the holder of New Zealand weather and climate data have manipulated the temperature data to show an increased warming through the last 100 years and submitted this data to the IPCC. Fortunately the raw data was available for other scientists to plot. These plots showed little or no historical warming at all. NIWA is still trying to explain their methodology in obtaining these exaggerated warming trends.

      Real scientists don’t destroy the raw data. It’s unheard of in Science. To put it in political language -there are “no checks and balances”.

    • Kenny says:

      05:27pm | 30/11/09

      Reading Tory’s post @ 6.10pm Minchin may agree to pass the ETS tomorrow once Turnbull is gone. This is getting too unbelieveable by the minute. If thats the case what credibility will they have at all, that makes the party look even worse. Surely that can’t be true. Are you sure someone hasn’t put something in the water at Parliament House? strange days indeed.

    • Katea says:

      05:27pm | 30/11/09

      “6.10pm: Nine’s Laurie Oakes says there’s mutterings Nick Minchin may agree to pass the ETS tomorrow once Turnbull is gone as leader.”

      What !!!!!!
      If this happens the all credibility is gone,
      The liberal party will be doomed until the end of days.

    • mid says:

      05:24pm | 30/11/09

      Surely the libs would have some overpaid ‘PR’ people advising them of just how bad this entire situation looks? Which bright spark decided it would be a good idea for a political party to try to demonstrate to us that it can hold the government to account by having a very sad, childish and extremely public trainwreck

    • Hendo says:

      05:11pm | 30/11/09

      Well done you guys at the Punch, it’s been terrific to be kept up to date on whats going on. 5 stars!

    • Senate Watcher says:

      05:04pm | 30/11/09

      Senate Live: Senator Eggleston says that a Chinese delegate indicated to him that it would be very difficult for China to establish an Emissions Trading Scheme.

    • Peter M says:

      05:01pm | 30/11/09

      “By the time it’s complete Parliament House could have ocean views.”

      Canberra is 550 to 700 meters above sea level. Sloppy, lazy journalism.

    • Daniel says:

      04:59pm | 30/11/09

      Look at that BMW and Turnbull says he is struggling? This guy should never be PM.

    • Deliah says:

      04:52pm | 30/11/09

      Randal@5.20pm. It is not the core which wins elections but the swinging voter who are by and large are rightfully disgusted with the real villian in this sorry saga namely Nick Minchin. I suggest to look at the Sky Poll. You might get a shock.

    • Johnno says:

      04:52pm | 30/11/09

      What Kevin and Malcolm have been either too shrewd and shifty to take us into their confidence, or just cannot explain so avoid the issue, is just HOW a huge tax imposed on all Australians, with some sort of magic pudding derived compensation to ‘average Australians’ and bigger polluters, is going to lower CO2 levels - even accepting the scientifically disputed suggestion that lowering CO2 would change the natural climate cycle.  NONE of the alarmists have explained the fact that the world was as warn circa 1000 - 1000 AD as it is now, without the factories, power stations and aircraft, and yet the world was saved from frying without the great white Knight Kevin charging into the fray.  As Pauline Hansen would say - PLEASE EXPLAIN.

    • D'oh says:

      04:48pm | 30/11/09

      @ Pearl

      We would if there actually was one that acknowledged the events of the last few weeks that cast doubt on the whole premise of the ETS.

    • Rod J'That says:

      04:42pm | 30/11/09

      5.39pm Abbott says Turnbull is not going to contest leadership.

      5.40pm Turnbull says I am going to contest leadership, infinity.

      5.41pm Abbott says Turnbull is not going to contest leadership, infinity plus one.

    • thatmosis says:

      04:37pm | 30/11/09

      Turnbull will stand his ground and do a Jubilation T Corpone and lead the attack that will bring the Liberal Pary to the rear for a principle based on erroneous facts and spin. He really should have a look at the real science and see that the Climate Change Bubble has well and truely burst and been shown to be a fabrication to entice millions out of a gullible public for no good reason.

    • chris says:

      04:38pm | 30/11/09

      I wonder if when Joe ‘Luke Skywalker’ Hockey visited the wise sage John ‘Yoda’ Howard they described the Liberal Party as the Death Star?

    • John says:

      04:27pm | 30/11/09

      Good on Steve Fielding in calling for a Royal Commission on Climate science (Climategate).
      At least they cover it (Climate science scandal) in major news outlets overseas, for example:
      Most viewed and second most viewed article today on the UK Telegraph website:
      1) “Climate change: this is the worst scientific scandal of our generation”
      2) “Climategate: University of East Anglia U-turn in climate change row”
      Also on the Times on Line- Sunday (UK) website :
      “The great climate change science scandal “
      Climategate in the USA,  features prominently in The Wall Street Journal and NY Times.
      Why is this scandal being ignored by our press, as the Labor mob and their green friends try and ram through the biggest ever tax on our economic wealth and households. What hold does Rudd have over the Australian press?

    • mike_in_mudgee says:

      04:20pm | 30/11/09

      Win or lose tomorrow, Turnbull is increasingly emerging from this sad, silly little scuffle as the inspiring leader for the 21st century that many of us hoped he could become.

    • Randal says:

      04:20pm | 30/11/09

      Deliah @ 3.55pm and any one else ‘impressed’ by Turnbull. This is not strength that is being shown it is the inability to face facts and deal with a crisis that he has created by confusing leadership with dictatorship. And no there are no Liberals that are impressed, the recent polling suggests that his stocks have fallen to levels never before seen from within the party and is almost on a parity with Liberal voters as preferred PM when compared to Rudd, by comparison John Howard was at 93% just before the last election. So whilst the Greens and ALP supporters have new found respect for Turnbull he has lost the support of his own party from the grass roots up and nobody wins election without the support of the core. Of course what a leader would do is resign, but unfortunately for Malcolm ego, arrogance and pride will not let him do that and he fully intends to drag this saga on for as long as he can, quickly followed by an uncomfortable bi-election in Wentworth. Not a leaders ar@@...

    • Brian says:

      04:13pm | 30/11/09

      I love the irony of the ETS. Its a tax on polluters that via higher prices will transfered to goods & services bought by the end consumer. In other words it like increasing the GST. Yep Labor are taxing polluters (whilst assisting the major ones) to ensure the end consumer pays. Its a regressive tax - Labor are increasing the GST whilst the Libs tear themselves apart opposing it.  I guess that not surprising given that Howard designed this scheme in the first place

    • Jeremy T says:

      04:06pm | 30/11/09

      My god this has been a disasterous fortnight for the Liberal Party - Joe Hockey a talented Liberal - has the smarts and good personality to communicate really well with the electorate - the problem could potentially be used & abused and tossed out, as the Opposition Leader’s possie is a poisoned chalice whilst Rudd is flying high in popularity.

    • David says:

      03:58pm | 30/11/09

      Dear Eno

      This is the problem with you climate change rhetorics.  When you know the arguments put forward are correct, you resort to name calling.  I am right wing because I am worried about old ladies, pensioners, low income people.  I thought that was left wing.  Gee I am really confused.  As I said before, if you have nothing to fear that ETS is correct, then delay it to put it under scrutiny, or do you know like everyone else this legislation cannot stand up to scrutiny.

      PS I have seen old ladies who I have known don’t have dogs buying dog food and they were not insane, but they were embarressed to ask for financial assistance.  I wish people like you would have greater empathy than idealosim it would help the disadvantage far more.

    • Joel B1 says:

      03:51pm | 30/11/09

      AJ: “As in ‘adding cinnamon to your christmas pudding is a handy little trick to make it taste better’.”

      I really can’t tell if you’re for or against AGW…

      (for those who don’t get it, that analogy is about using a technique or “trick” to make something different to what it might “really” be)

    • Phillip Dover says:

      03:49pm | 30/11/09

      The poor old “Climategate” supporters . . .the blogosphere and talkback radio was rampant with their protestations that the hacked emails would bring down the Climate Change Conspiracy. . . but alas, how dissapointed and angry they are that their protestations have been ignored and the world moves on without them !

    • Pearl says:

      03:47pm | 30/11/09

      In case alot of you people rambling on about climate change haven’t noticed this article is about the Liberal party Leadership. Not an article about climate change, isn’t there somewhere else you can write all your never ending long and boring comments.

    • trevor ashman says:

      03:44pm | 30/11/09

      “It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”

      Theodore Roosevelt

      “Citizenship in a Republic,”
      Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

    • Joel B1 says:

      03:44pm | 30/11/09

      Dear Punch Reporters:

      Adding “seriously” to a report make you seem like the biased reporters you actually might be.

    • D'oh says:

      03:39pm | 30/11/09

      I am ashamed to say that I am loosing faith in the reporting ability of Punch journalists.

      The elephant in the room throughout this whole Liberal leadership debate has been (as many Punchers have already referred to) CLIMATEGATE.

      So far there has not been a single article or reference to the CRU hack/leak.

      Censor this comment if you will, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

    • Carol says:

      03:36pm | 30/11/09

      I love Malcolm Turnbulls approach to all this, he appears relaxed, positive, clear, determined, unfased, professional and even jolly. Quite impressive you would have to say. Absolutely shits all over Rudd in crises. Compare the way Rudd looked whilst dealing with the asylum seeker crises. And Turnbull has had to deal with alot more than Rudd has. Good on ya Malcolm. He is PM material there is no doubt in my mind anymore.

    • Lesley says:

      03:29pm | 30/11/09

      I wish all the climate change zealots would understand that the ETS is a tax on energy. Everything will cost more & this cost increase will be paid by you & me.
      The so called “polluters” will simply raise their prices to cover any permits. The experience in Europe, with their ETS starting in 2005, has proven that the broking companies will make billions, governments will reap heaps in taxes, the price of electricity will triple - and CO2 levels will actually RISE…Kevin Rudd’s whole agenda is to become part of the United Nations, as he has already spent $1million on trying to secure himself a position on the UN Security Council.
      He needs Australia to sign up to this treaty, so he can stand centre-stage under the world spotlight & brag… while the people in this country are left to suffer the impost forever.

    • Matt says:

      03:27pm | 30/11/09

      Er, the political climate is definitely heating up. No boffin can dispute that.

    • Jeremy C Browne says:

      03:26pm | 30/11/09

      Let global warming believers pay the Rudd tax of $1000 per year.  Non-believers don’t have to.  Simple.

    • jungle jim says:

      03:26pm | 30/11/09

      Senator Fielding is right !!!  As the earth is only 6000 years old , all the paleoclimatology evidence of climate change is obviously a satanic trick to establish a communist new world order.

      Break out the tinfoil hats - they will protect us from repltilian thought implants

      Now , where are my Risperdals?

    • Your Name says:

      03:26pm | 30/11/09

      ETS = globalist wealth transfer scheme

      We are currently in a cooling phase, which is why the emails refer to “hide the recent decline” and “recent coldish years”.

    • AJ says:

      03:21pm | 30/11/09

      Dear Punch Commenters:

      Adding ‘gate’ as a suffix to the word ‘climate’ does not mean that anyone needs to take you seriously.  Credible journalists of all stripes bar the furthest to the right accept that the word ‘trick’, around which your supposed ‘-gate’ is premised, was used in the context of ‘handy technique’ not ‘fool the public’.

      As in ‘adding cinnamon to your christmas pudding is a handy little trick to make it taste better’.

      That, not some grand concocted conspiracy, is why nobody takes you seriously.

    • halberstram says:

      03:19pm | 30/11/09

      Minchin will be panicking now. . . . And watch for the venom from the right wing radio hosts now. . . .there attacks on Turnbull will ramp up another !!

    • Eno says:

      03:16pm | 30/11/09

      David Jordan whomever you are - presumably a right wing crony of Minchin - how many times have the “Poor old pensioners have to eat dogfood” stories been run by ACA and how many times have they been shown to be through laziness and insanity as it’s cheaper to buy food - keep those stereotypes rolling out though - perhaps someone will be gullible enough to believe you!

    • Patrick says:

      03:12pm | 30/11/09

      Sure Senator Fielding. While we’re at it, why don’t we hold a royal commision on the topic of creationism. Oh I forgot, only faith is required to believe in that, not the evidence he demands from certain other things, despite evidence for those things staring him right in the face.

      Forget a royal commision on climate science, all Senator Fielding has to do is hop over to Wikipedia if he wants to learn more about the topic. Although of course everything in wikipedia is written by left wing communist vegans who manipulate science and want to force us all to live in caves…..or something

      *puts on tin foil hat*

    • Peter M says:

      03:10pm | 30/11/09

      One word: Climategate.

    • Deliah says:

      03:08pm | 30/11/09

      Tina R @ 3.58pm. Yes, another strong performance from Turnbull. This crisis is the making of him and I think many in the Liberal Party and the public at large are starting to see that. The backstabbers and agents of Minchin might start having a few regrets. As for Turnbull’s comments regarding Minchin they were entirely justified.

    • Harry says:

      03:05pm | 30/11/09

      The Liberals would have to be fools to toss Turnbull aside for Hockey or Abbott. Turnbull is streets ahead of them, what a great Leader he has become.

    • Bill says:

      03:03pm | 30/11/09

      Turnbull just seems to be getting stronger and stronger, what a great performance in his news conference once again. He has gained my respect this week. Good luck to him tomorrow.

    • Nancy says:

      03:01pm | 30/11/09

      Your 3.46 Fielding. “seriously”. The information released by climategate is serious in the extreme. Your implication it is a joke says to me “lazy reporter”

    • Phillip Dover says:

      03:01pm | 30/11/09

      NEWSFLASH: Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt have decided to run for Leader and Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party . . . .They feel this way they can cut out the middlemen on party policy development !

    • David Jordan says:

      03:00pm | 30/11/09

      I am honestly fed up with people supporting ETS because it sounds like a good idea.  We have a situation where old ladies will be sitting in the dark on a winters night eating dog food, because of a cost that no one has bothered to scrutinise.  Electricity costs are going to jump 60% even before ETS is implemented.  Compensation will not be sufficient, as we already seen with the pensioner increase, it was quickly absorbed.  Company profits will drop by at least 10%, so where will Mr Rudd get tax to compensate pensioners.  People do not understand that ETS revenue that is collected will be paid to China to reduce their carbon emmissions and China will totally deystroy Australian Manufacturing because they will not have an ETS on their manufacturing.  If China can run a space program they are not a third world country, they should have their own ETS.  This is so serious that it could lead to civil disobediance in Australia and around the world.  Why are we rushing it through without proper debate and scrutiny.  People do not understand that we only consume 20% of the electricity that is generated.  That means that ETS will have a five fold greater impact than people are assuming as it will be based on production not usage.  The Daily Telegraph came up with ways to reduce the impact of ETS to the household budget, which was totally wrong and misleading because even the so called experts don’t understand how ETS will work.  This is a really poorly considered legislation being pushed through based on propaganda.  If we took Earths atmosphere gases and converted it to a kilometer of road, Australia’s man made carbon contribution would be the width of a hair.  We are going to self destruct Australia to reduce a hair width of carbon emissions, come on people get real.

    • Peter Collinson says:

      02:59pm | 30/11/09

      Are there any legal problems with sending Steve Fielding a couple of rolls of aluminium foil? He must need a new hat by now.

    • Tina R says:

      02:58pm | 30/11/09

      Must say, another strong performance from Turnbull this afternoon. You would have to say he makes alot of sence. I see a few journos are trying to pin him down for saying a few hasty words about Minchin on chanel 9 Sat morning, thats a bit of a laugh considering Minchin and his mates have been relentlessly dogging him in the media and asking for his head on a plate. How would you expect him to react. His reaction to these turkeys was mild I would have thought.

    • Eno says:

      02:58pm | 30/11/09

      It was my understanding that the liberals carried the votes handsomely - the votes against the ETS were the Combined party room when they let the dinosaurs from the Nationals get their snouts out of the trough and bleat?

      Minchin and Abbot and the rest of the right should just join the Nationals by name rather than pretending they are liberal so they can all be wiped out by the same same meteor of public perception.

    • Matt says:

      02:57pm | 30/11/09

      Steve Fielding is right.

      The science hasn’t even been debated. It’s just ‘denier this, alarmist that’.

    • David Booth says:

      02:57pm | 30/11/09

      Please dont disturb Rudd he is busy handing out Order of Australia Medals (now debased) to former West Indian cricket players. The man is busy on another junket, doubt if he even cares who the leader of the opposition is any more (he bought off the last two with dubious sinecures) so why care now? The ETS is hopefully dead as long as Malcolm goes. Doesen’t matter who gets the job Rudd knows their price and he will gladly pay billions to get his own way, just as he has done with the ETS. The poor old taxpayer forks out yet again to keep the man afloat.

    • DG says:

      02:56pm | 30/11/09

      “A strong line of argument Hockey could use is that with Turnbull’s leadership doomed, it is Hockey’s duty as a committed moderate to run against right-winger Tony Abbott.”

      That would divide the moderates between Turnbull and Hockey and give Abbott the Chair. A brilliant move.

    • halberstram says:

      02:57pm | 30/11/09

      The Liberals should have the courage of their Cliamte Change denialism and vote down the ETC bill rather than send to committee to try and avoid a double dissolution!

    • Deliah says:

      02:55pm | 30/11/09

      It looks like Joe Hockey has been reading the blogs and has realised being perceived as a backstabber is poison with the voters. Turnbull has shown incredible strength in this crisis. I hope he wins tomorrow and the dreadful Minchin finally gets his just deserts.

    • Jock says:

      02:52pm | 30/11/09

      Cut out the middle men. Kochie for PM - he gave Rudd and Hockey their popular appeal. (It’s a joke).

    • Joel B1 says:

      02:46pm | 30/11/09

      “why our health system is in a mess” if you want to support Rudd I wouldn’t mention that one…

      (as in “I, Kevin Rudd your Prime Minister, will take over the state health systems if they don’t improve markedly” BTW they haven’t and he didn’t)

    • John says:

      02:46pm | 30/11/09

      Yawn
      When will those in newsville actually have the courage to focus on Rudd (what - you forgot he was PM) and the Government of the day with their incompetence instead of this total pre-occupation with Turnbull.
      The little Johnny haters in newsville are alive and well.

    • KJ says:

      02:44pm | 30/11/09

      Maybe this was Turnbulls plan all along. To destroy the Liberal party. After all the guy is more labour than most labour MPs. He takes a stand that is againt most Liberal voters beliefs, and then when other Liberal Mps stand up for their constituents, he calls them names and makes them out to be traitors. Seems like bullying tactics to me. I am for a cleaner enviroment, alternative energy and all, but not a ETS. I am also in turnballs electorate. And have been emailing him for months now about the ETS. Too busy to reply it would seem, too busy ruining my politcal PARTY. can’t wait to vote him out next ellection, doing something I have never done in my life, and that is NOT vote Liberal.

    • Senate Watcher says:

      02:42pm | 30/11/09

      We are just waiting for the Turnbull dummy spit tomorrow.  I can’t wait - that alone will make political history.

    • Graham Wells says:

      02:41pm | 30/11/09

      Joe Hockey is at present going against what all Australian hate, breaking a promise, but I suppose it is true what everyone keeps saying “Never trust a Politician” even if you consider him your best mate.  I can assure just on principal I could not vote for a man like this from now on after 37 years I will vote for another Party.  Good luck Joe, just watch your back with Abbot and a few others coming up the back of you.

    • dancan says:

      02:40pm | 30/11/09

      I can’t tell anymore. is Australian politics now a game of survivor?  It sure sounds like it.

    • JohnC says:

      02:38pm | 30/11/09

      It just seems to me that Hockey is going to be the Liberal version of Beazley.  Nice guy, people would like to have a beer with but not leader of the country.  And now he is being used by the conservatives in his party to destroy him and the party.  He will probably be leader until fresh talent comes in and renews the party maybe 10 years from now.

    • John A Neve says:

      02:28pm | 30/11/09

      Ben P @ 1504hrs.

      “Most Australians don’t understand the ETS” says Ben !!  How do you know that Ben?

      But do tell Ben, did most Australians understand the war in Iraq, or the GST or why our health system is in a mess. In fact how much are “most Australians” told and how much do we understand.

      More to the point Ben, what do Labor or Liberal really stand for, do you understand that?

    • Eno says:

      02:27pm | 30/11/09

      Poor old Joe is going to be seen as Minchin’s Muppet if he takes the job and gutless if he doesn’t (depending on your point of view). Now I understood that both of the guys supposedly taking over were in somewhat marginal seats? How would it look if both the leaders were tumbled out of parliament ? I hope we have an early election - I’m hanging for it! Perhaps it’s time for Shrek to just go back to his swamp!

    • Super D says:

      02:25pm | 30/11/09

      Listening to Barnaby Joyce question Penny Wong its pretty clear she doesn’t actually know how the scheme will work.  No wonder the ALP have been relying on bipartisan support to rush this through.  They have no chance of being able to explain it to the electorate, particularly during the fast paced environment of a campaign.

    • Sherlock says:

      02:25pm | 30/11/09

      @ orangecrush at 02:32pm

      Your comment was hilarious. You managed to confirm everything I said about alarmists in only 57 words. I don’t think I could have done a better job.

      However, it was so stereotypical of a climate change alarmist I’m starting to wonder if you’re just taking the piss.

    • Anton says:

      02:11pm | 30/11/09

      An “inconvenient truth” is that the Australian economy is “high energy” by nature, characterised by minerals processing and other energy intensive industries. For example, energy, rather than bauxite is the main ingredient for Aluminium production. Increasing the cost of energy will drive these industries offshore.

      It is also unlikely that the substitute “green jobs” will materialise. These are manufacturing jobs, which do not thrive in Australia’s high wage society. Solar panels and wind turbines are already made in China, with cheap labour and no ETS.

      So if Labor want an ETS and jobs, maybe they will need Workchoices as well .

    • Linda says:

      02:10pm | 30/11/09

      The only hope the Liberals have at the next election or the one after is by having Turnbull as Leader. Anyone else as Leader will be laughed out of the house. No one is going to listen to anything Hockey or Abbott have to say, they will represent NOTHING. If we want to get rid of Rudd Turnbull is the only person remotely capable of doing it.

    • terry says:

      02:07pm | 30/11/09

      You should be jumping all over labor seeing as they are the one’s running the green scam as it is nowproven bty the leaked documents ,you cannot negotiate a scamaand a fraud ,they are demanding criminal charges overseas for all concerned and so it should be.

    • Kelvin says:

      02:05pm | 30/11/09

      I wouldn’t write Turnbull off quite as easily as the Journo’s are. I have a feeling he will prevail AGAIN, and good luck to him.

    • Ben P says:

      02:04pm | 30/11/09

      It’s sickening to read all the Labor suppoters here saying how wonderful Turnball is, how brave and principled.  It is his mishandling of the ETS, and tin ear to the clamour of the Liberal base and half of the parliamentary party, that has put us in this fix.

      The bottom line is - most Australians don’t understand the ETS, and its a fair bet that when they become acquainted with it a majority won’t want it.  Then under Abbott the Liberals can do what Keating did to Hewson’s GST in 1993.

    • BundyGil says:

      02:03pm | 30/11/09

      I can see it now.

      We’ve had KEATING! THE OPERA.

                NOW

      Coming direct to you from Canberra.

      Now playing at the house on the hill

      ETS AND THE NEANDERTHALS!
      The comedy.

      starring

      Malcolm Turnbull, Nick Minchin, Tony Abbott and with the supporting cast of Joe Hockey!
      Watch a death defying performance from Malcolm Turnbull as he disintegrates into a thousand pieces while still shouting in defiance.
      “I WILL NOT RESIGN!!”.
      You’ll shake your head in disbelief at the skulduggerous Nick Minchin, as he plots and deviates his Machiavellian way.
      Tony Abbott will amaze you with his contortionistic ETS back flips. Watch in awe as he finally disappears up his own backside in a flash of blue smoke.
      Commiserate with the hapless Joe Hockey, as he is dragged kicking and screaming into centre stage where, between them, under the bright lights, the liberal party political machine and the government carves him up into nano-particle sized pieces.
      Laugh as you’ve never laughed before at the chorus line of neanderthals, as they come crawling out from under their rocks, singing about how totally irrelevant they are.

      A total comic production

      A must see performance!

      ETS AND THE NEANDERTHALS!

    • Deliah says:

      02:02pm | 30/11/09

      It looks like Turnbull is getting significant support in the blogs for his strength in adversity and standing by a principle. In contrast the despicable Minchin is getting the blowtorch. As for Hockey, if he does stick the knife in and falls in the trap, his time as leader of a divided and dysfunctional party will be very short.

    • S says:

      02:02pm | 30/11/09

      I’m loving the movie references of today’s Tweets re the Liberal implosion, but given the utter Shakespearean tragic nature of it all, I prefer a more literal analogy.

      The War of the Poses - the House of Turncaster vs the House of Pork

    • Joel B1 says:

      02:00pm | 30/11/09

      “As Napoleon Dynamite would say, he has the skills. “

      Yes, but as ND would also say “does it have talons?”

    • mcdazz says:

      01:59pm | 30/11/09

      As much as I don’t like the man, the only person in the Liberal Party who seems to have any sense of honour about him is Malcolm Turnbull.

      Tony Abbott is an incessant trouble maker who loves to see himself on TV - even more so than Rudd if that is possible.

      Kevin Andrews is just a failure - no strength, no honour and no support.

      And as for Joe Hockey, he will have to compromise his own ideals IF he wants the support of Minchin and the other dishonorable Liberals who seem more eager to backstab their own colleagues than to do their own jobs.

      Hockey will need to make deals with the Liberal Party devils - and thus, he will have been bought and paid for in full should he become leader.

      The ETS, of which Hockey has claimed to support, will become a thing of the past and most Australians who acknowledge climate change will see Hockey as a betrayer.

      If Hockey has any brains he would do well to remain in the background, allow what will happen to happen, and then strike later.

      As I said - IF Hockey has any brains.

    • Andrew says:

      01:55pm | 30/11/09

      You have to question this debate… has anyone noticed that no matter which party is in power the same things happen?

      Labor wants us to be a republic… the Liberals put it to a vote.
      Liberals introduce a GST… Labor would have done the same.
      Liberals had an ETS as policy at the last election (it’s still Liberal policy>)... but Labor is in power so “they are introducing it”...

      As far as I can tell this struggle over leadership in the Liberals is a side issue… who is really running the country?

      In this case I would welcome a double-dissolution, or a referendum… at least then we would see some more open debate and at the people (who are going to have to foot the bill) will get a chance to have our say.

    • Ben P says:

      01:53pm | 30/11/09

      Only Abbott can lead a successful fight against the ETS - Hockey would be useless.  Now, Libs, suck down your anti-Catholic bigotry and give him a go.  As Napoleon Dynamite would say, he has the skills.

    • Sentantia says:

      01:49pm | 30/11/09

      One has to wonder at the intelligence of some Liberals.  They chose Malcolm Turnball as their leader and now the knives are out.  Last week they voted 50-34 in favour of the ETS and now a minority led by extreme right-wing Nick Minchin and Tony Abbott who cannot accept a demoncratic vote within their party have lit a fuse that will blast their party into the barren wilderness for years.  If Hockey wins, his leadership will last as long as that of Downer.  The Liberal party is tearing itself to shreds, and for what?  Turnball is finished.  Hockey is a lame duck.  Abbott is a loser.  Nelson has gone.  Costello has gone.  Say goodnight, Liberals, and switch off the light when you leave the room.

    • Andrew says:

      01:47pm | 30/11/09

      I like the first event in the list:

      6.08am: National Party federal director Brad Henderson tells AM a previous trickle of anti-ETS correspondence has now turned into a torrent, with the party has receiving thousands of emails from people saying they are opposed to the scheme, supporting the Nats’ position.

      Well of course the anti-ETS correspondence was a trickle… we all slept safely in our beds under the (false) comfort that whatever hair-brained scheme Rudd came up with; it would be blocked in the senate…. Now we find that Rudd has been “keeping his enemies even closer than his friends”, and made Turnbull a part of his schemes… Sad for Turnbull that he is not able to take a step back from his “handiwork” and re-evaluate the whole proposal in light of what is good for the nation, and in the interests of his party and constituents.

      No wonder the trickle became a torrent, we all feel as if we have been betrayed, as we heard nothing of these negotiations.  Where is the openness and debate that should go into these things… spring this “result” and “change” on us at the last second and expect us to like it?  No wonder that many of us feel as if we are having the wool pulled over our eyes.

    • Joel B1 says:

      01:47pm | 30/11/09

      Can I be the first to say “what with all this new super-fast media, you think the b*stards could generate news a bit quicker, this is like watching paint dry”

    • mcdazz says:

      01:45pm | 30/11/09

      Joel B1 says:01:07pm | 30/11/09:

      “It’s the Libs who have to have policies; “we’ll just hand out cash until we get voted out and pick-up that excellent UN job””

      The Liberals were borrowing Labor policy prior to the last election, and vice versa.  It’s nothing new.

      But the question remains:  Why won’t they support their own policy?

      It was good enough to run on as part of their election policy - so why is it no longer good enough?

      Minchin didn’t have any problems with it then - Abbott never had any problems with it then - Hockey never had any problems with it then - in fact, no-one in the Liberal Party had any problems with it.

      So why now?

    • Jane says:

      01:42pm | 30/11/09

      C’mon Joe tell us, I can’t stand the waiting much longer.

    • Fro says:

      01:40pm | 30/11/09

      Dear Malcolm,

      Although I am not a liberal supporter - I wish to pass on my kudos for the kahunas you have shown in all this leadership scuttlebut. It is my sincere hope the you will be re-instated as leader (again) and you can then have a mandate to banish the howardite dinosaurs to their retirement villages and govt pensions where they belong (with howard).

      If only you were the leader of the labour party as I would much rather vote for you than krudd. You and Jules would be a good team together.

      keep on swinging, hockey is a poser and abbott won’t make it work with the ladies.

    • jannie says:

      01:36pm | 30/11/09

      Michael says: 02:19pm | 30/11/09

        ................ far better that Australia be perceived as scientifically illiterate hillbillies
          All this crap about Australia leading the world - EU has already had ETS for 5 years with 25 countries involved. Our addressing climate change is not as good as Chinas

    • Elizabeth says:

      01:33pm | 30/11/09

      The Libs obviously cannot cope with a leader who is intelligent and principled. Turnbull is to be congratuated on his principled stand.

    • orangecrush says:

      01:32pm | 30/11/09

      @Sherlock 12:15

      ” ....Andrew Bolt quotes the science”.  If you call denouncing 20 years of science by a number of esteemed bodies by referring to some leaked emails (which he wasn’t even able to quote from) and an article from a non-scientist (Monckton) ... well yes I suppose you can say he “quotes the science” ... LOL

    • Michael says:

      01:19pm | 30/11/09

      Jannie, I think the problem is they don’t want Rudd to be able to grandstand at Copenhagen. Even if he has a DD it won’t happen before Copenhagen.

    • TUT says:

      01:17pm | 30/11/09

      This is not about being the most popular leader!!

      I thought this was about 80% of Australians do not know what ETS is about and how it will effect us.

      The labour party has failed to explain what it is about.  We have only had scaremongering and Copenhagen threat.

      Do you realise that although Denmark has a lot of windmills and other renewable energy program, they still get 80% of their electricity from Sweden, produced at a nuclear plant in Southern Sweden.

      The same can be said for Germany.

      Give us some facts please!!!!

    • Hustles says:

      01:13pm | 30/11/09

      Steve of Cornubia - I think your dreaming mate.

    • Pete says:

      01:10pm | 30/11/09

      Quote from the Sky News clip you posted:
      Host: “Glen Milne, er, Paul Keating, er, argued for a GTS and then went to an election campaign arguing against a GTS, it’s similar isn’t it, and it can be done if Joe, er, has enough political smarts to pull it off?”

      Er, What?!
      Someone please explain what a GTS is and what Paul Keating had to do with it.

    • Jacob says:

      01:08pm | 30/11/09

      I bet Rudd isn’t geting much sleep in the States at the moment.hehehehehe

    • Steve of Cornubia says:

      01:07pm | 30/11/09

      Your comment:I suspect that Rudd will actaully be very relieved if the Coalition shuts the ETS legislation down. Rudd has always been very sensitive to public opinion and the growing doubts among voters re the ETS will have spooked him. Sure, he wants a job at the UN and would love to grandstand at Copenhagen, but if there is the chance of a big voter backlash over an ill-conceived ETS, he may actually prefer a delay himself.

      So, once again, Rudd is given a Get Out Of jail Free card by our currently dysfunctional opposition. He is able to claim the high moral ground over climate change while able to blame the opposition for its failure to pass legislation that could have cost him dearly had it been passed!

      Not just a Win Win, but a Win Win Win for Rudd.

    • Joel B1 says:

      01:06pm | 30/11/09

      The more well-read Punchers will know that Enid Blyton predicted all this way back in 1947.

      In her visionary and apocalyptic tale “Five on Kirrin Island Again” Uncle Quentin invents “a way of replacing all coal, coke and oil, to give the world all the heat and power it wants, and to do away with mines and miners”
      “Good gracious!” says George. “It would be one of the most wonderful things the world has known”

      “Yes”, said her father. “and I should give it to the world ... a gift to the whole world” “But George, there are men who want my secret for themselves, so they make colossal fortunes out of it”

      “How hateful” said George

      It’s a bit like Nostradamus in that you have to guess who Uncle Quentin is nowadays , although I’m sure Wong is George. Indeed, George is always scowling too! As for the evil enemy agents, Minchin and Abbott?

    • Daryl Saal says:

      01:04pm | 30/11/09

      Has the next Liberal Prime Minister finished primary school yet?

    • jannie says:

      01:02pm | 30/11/09

      Gillian says:  01:43pm | 30/11/09


      Rudd is apparantly delighted with the backstabbing in the Liberal Party - if the ETS bill is rejected he can call double dissolution (and you can then forget the Liberal amendments) - if the ETS is passed he gets the legislation and can blame cost blowout on the amendments the Liberals insisted.

      Its win-win for Rudd - all courtesy of the hypocrites Minchin, Abbott & their ilk.

      Well done Minchin…....... Kevin ‘20 will thank you

    • TQS says:

      01:01pm | 30/11/09

      @RT: Go to the AEC website and see how popular left-liberal parties really are with the electorate when they get out from behind Conservative apron strings and take their polices to the people. They are electoral poison.

      The underlying truth is this: If you are a progressive voter who believes in high taxes and the redistribution of wealth then why would you vote for a left-liberal New Democrats party when you can vote for the real thing in Labor or the Greens?

      And furthermore which working class battler who believes in progressive politics is going to vote for an elitist merchant banker like Malcolm Turnbull?

      Left-liberalism that survives only on hiding behind popular Conservative polices and politics. Go-it-alone and you are just another empty box and the ballot paper next the Democrats, Liberals for forests or Climate Change parties.

      Cheyrl Kernot is the best illustration of what the politics of left liberalism really are. Unpopular stand-for-nothing progressivism whose only use is to bend over for Labor party policy.

    • Steve says:

      01:00pm | 30/11/09

      Many seem to think that the proposed ETS will make Australia “world leaders” in climate change response. The reality is we are currently exactly the opposite - world leaders in causing climate change. Australia is now the highest of all world polluters on a per capita basis – more that the U.S, 4.5 times higher than China, 18 times higher than India. What gives us any credibility to demand cuts from China and India if we are unwilling to do anything ourselves? They are at least in part trying to boost their economies to lift people out of grinding poverty. For us the issues come down more to our love affair with our V8s, plasma screens, air conditioning and air travel.

      The proposed ETS makes allowance for a minimum reduction of only 5% on 2000 levels by 2020, and more depending on the commitments of other nations. This is a very modest reduction (far less than what is really needed), and would still leave us as one of the world’s leading polluters. Also the form of the ETS is consistent with what other governments have, are, and are planning to apply. So what is the basis for all the hype that “we should not be leading the world in climate change”? We’re a long, long way from that.

      Climate change is real.  There will always be those who manipulate data on both sides of the debate, but the ‘legitimate’ science really is in, albeit we are continuing to learn more of its ramifications. The need for decisive global action – including by the world’s biggest polluter Australia, is urgent to prevent runaway climate change and its devastating effects. The reality is that without great structural changes, climate change will leave the plant in an awful state for future generations and great numbers of the world’s poor will die in the coming decades. We in Australia will be relatively shielded in the medium term, but the pollution to which we are now the greatest per capita contributors will cause enormous suffering in the majority world.

      The cost of adaptation to climate change is far greater than avoiding it. But it is not just an issue of cost as the economists would argue. It is a profoundly moral one. As a western nation that has unsustainably consumed resources and polluted far more than its fair share we bear great moral responsibility to play our part curbing emissions. We need politicians who will stand up and do what is politically responsible, not those who are more concerned about appeasing their big business support base with their vested interest in the status quo.  I’m pleasantly surprised by how Malcolm has shown such tenacity in this, putting his career on the line for what he knows is right.

    • Gerry says:

      12:57pm | 30/11/09

      Turnbull should have been smarter and not fueled Kevins ego by trying to rush this bill through for him.

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:55pm | 30/11/09

      Me too re Rudd’s face, I’d sacrifice my kids AND their kids to see that!

    • serge crosnier says:

      12:50pm | 30/11/09

      who care about the libs,or national to me a coalition is for,well nothing at all,if you can’t stand
      on your own two feet,you are not very good are you,and that’s what we see at the momment.

    • Gillian says:

      12:43pm | 30/11/09

      I hope there are cameras to catch Rudds face when Turnbull loses and he loses his chance to grandstand in Copenhagen. It will be so good to see Rudd not get his way. And in the same swoop they get rid of the biggest maniac Leader the Liberals have ever had. 2 birds with 1 stone fantastic stuff.

    • JAYVEE says:

      12:38pm | 30/11/09

      Problem is that Smiling Joe is even more Eco than Malcolm. Dear Joe, if he wants to win, has to undergo a complete New Born Climate Change Sceptic Baptism cum Metamorphosis. Sceptic & Baptism are words which do not fit well together as one implies belief and the other disbelief. This should not be a problem to any really experienced & seasoned politician however. Let’s face it:  Saying Yes & No at the same time & within the same sentence is after all an art form only surpassed by talking for hours and saying absolutely bloody nothing. The result as far as we voters are concerned is merely the difference of us being screwed right now or somewhat later. ( Sort of would you like me to do you now or will we have dinner at your cost first?)
      This leads me to fact that an honest crook may yet be a better alternative. You know you gonna get screwed but at least you can make some prior arrangements for the ensuing baby to come first. The guy who claims to be on Your side and who only has Your interests at heart may well have an entire Ruddy funded IVF program in mind and you wind up with an entire set of Octuplets + all the ensuing costs and work which will take decades to overcome. Somewhat like the government we have today. Now Abbot I think is the kind of guy who will let you buy the nappies first or at least will inform you where you can get them at the best price. Penny will blame your enforced pregnancy on Climate Change and you not being Eco responsible while Ruddy is nowhere to be seen in the your hard Labor ward cause he would be flat out cashing in his frequent flier points in central Africa or Outer China if not busy making a speech to seemingly attentive, but three quarter frozen penguins in Lower Antarctica.
      Voting is Not choosing the Best ... It’s choosing the Least Worst!

    • Peter says:

      12:33pm | 30/11/09

      Doesn’t matter, they won’t win an election anytime soon under our 2 party-preferred system anyway.
      I saw a poll this morning that gives the greens 13% primary vote. I don’t know that the general public knows what they stand for. Do they also know that a vote for green may as well be a vote for Labor under preferences?
      If they are becoming a serious alternative party then it is about time the media put the greens under more scrutiny. They are extreme and dangerous. They are red wolves in sheep’s green clothing.
      The media should raise the issue of ditching preferential voting. It’s a rort.

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:33pm | 30/11/09

      Re peak oil… what about this little bit of “hidden” info that the IPCC doesn’t want out of the bag.

      Future energy sources
      “3: oil/gas: a smooth transition from oil to the massive reserves of unconventional fossil fuels. like methane clathrate”

      “Massive reserves”, massive, yet I doubt anyone on The Punch had any idea about that…

      Information is not really the IPCC’s game is it? More like “we will decide, you will obey”

    • RT says:

      12:29pm | 30/11/09

      TQS 11:59am -  Spoken like a Liberal party hack. Derspite your bravado, if Turnbull does lead a Liberal breakaway party, that will be anything but good news for the Libs. Of course, it would be nothing more than a temporary and minor player, but it could bleed votes from the Libs and win one or more of their senate spots, hardly what the party needs.

      None of us knows what the next Liberal PM will be like, but here is my tip: he/she is not even in Parliament yet, just as Rudd wasn’t when Howard won in 1996. That’s an indication of how long the party will be in Opposition now. Hockey and at least a couple more leaders will be burned first.

    • Mingle says:

      12:27pm | 30/11/09

      Goodbye Malcolm and good bye Rudds grandstanding in Copenhagen. BEAUTIFUL.! Poor Kev will be devastated.

    • jack Sparrow says:

      12:25pm | 30/11/09

      The ETS will be the Election Time Shivers for all political parties and if I were a betting man I would bet that there is not more than 10% of ALL people on the planet that enjoys paying any tax let alone a tax disguised as an global warming initiative to save us poor souls from self inflicted genocide.  Human nature being what it is is completely predictable, this means that when push comes to shove no one will dip into their own pocket to pay someone ell’s bill. We are already paying for the stupidity of labor, how much more do you want to pay.

      I tell my kids that sometimes the price you have to pay for your actions is much much more than you can afford or are willing to pay.

      I see Rudd as a crazed animal going after it’s prey not realizing it is bleeding to death by a severed artery in his relentless pursuit of a UN seat.

    • TQS says:

      12:14pm | 30/11/09

      @Rob: Left-Liberalism (Australian Democrats, Liberals for Forests) and single issue Climate Change parties polled in Socialist Alliance territory at the last two elections.

      Your politics are electoral poison and the best you can hope for are to be “useful idiots” for Labor. You have success only through branch staking rorts and then hiding behind Conservative policies, politics and leaders come election time.

      And stop hiding behind this “moderate” tag - You are progressives who believe that the redistribution of wealth is the primary role of government. It is the great myth that the “moderates” are just socially liberal but still economical conservatism who believe in free markets.

      The Liberal left party will never be a centre-left clone of Labor. Left liberals who try to cut the apron springs from popular Conservative polices and politics and go it alone to the electorate will always face the same fate of the last “Liberal Reform Movement” - the Australian Democrats.

      Why would any progressive voter who believes that the role of government is to redistribute wealth vote left-liberal or for Turnbull’s New Democrats, when they can vote for the real thing in the ALP or the Greens?

    • jannie says:

      12:12pm | 30/11/09

      Incredible - Hockey has had to go , cap in hand, to Minchins office to find out what he is allowed to think on ETS & what is the new environment policy that the extreme right have decided for the Liberal Party.

      Poor Joe the puppet - how humiliating

      Whats next - no more teaching evolution in schools?

    • mcdazz says:

      12:09pm | 30/11/09

      Even if Hockey is put in place as leader of the Liberals, he will always have to look out for that troublemaker and narcissist Tony “backstabber” Abbott.

      The Liberals would do well to cleanse their party of that miscreant.

    • david says:

      12:08pm | 30/11/09

      This is more fun than watching the cricket lolz

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:07pm | 30/11/09

      “it must be more of a Liberal ETS than a Labor ETS.
      So then, why won’t the Liberals support their own ETS? “

      Funny, that’s the type of thing that Labor have insisted on right from winning the last election. It’s the Libs who have to have policies; “we’ll just hand out cash until we get voted out and pick-up that excellent UN job”

    • scio says:

      12:06pm | 30/11/09

      Your comment:Rudd has knocked down three Liberal leaders in two years - rack the next one up suckers : he can bowl over Abbott and Hockey before the next federal election.

      Kevin ‘20 - thank you Minchin

    • DG says:

      12:01pm | 30/11/09

      “12.37pm: Now two camps, one at either exit, eyeing each other nervously…”

      Sounds like the Liberal Party.

      @David (12:32pm | 30/11/09)

      We are currently IN an ice age - that is to say that there are ice sheets on earth - see Greenland, Antarctica. When we are not in an ice age there is no ice on earths surface. I suspect that you mean “glacial period”.

      And how do you know that we are heading to another Glacial period? Ice ages have ended before and, based on the trends, we would well be within the time frame for a possible end of the ice age.

      The assumption that we are heading into another glacial period is just as nonsensical to assume “we had glacial periods before, we should be heading back to one now” as it is to say “We are heading out of an ice age and the world will be a hotter drier place”.

      Both are purely theoretical and based on best guesses. Since we have not lived through such a change it’s really the best we can do. Neither side actually HAS the answer and is avoiding flicking to the back of the book to find out who is right.

      Personally I support the ETS, not because I think it will prevent climate change* but for a completely different reason - the fear of peak oil didn’t inspire change, neither did the renewable energy push of the early 90s - ultimately we can not live on coal based products forever and, in my opinion, we need to have the new infrastructure in place BEFORE we get to the point of desperation.

      Now we have a practical choice - keep using the old and pay a premium for doing so, or use renewable resources and avoid the tax. It will, artificially, improve the demand for sustainable energy production - or at the very least a practical alternative to carbon based energy sources.

      * I personally believe that climate change is inevitable - whether the planet gets cooler or warmer is a guess at best. Whether humans cause is is debatable, but I tend to think that the cause is irrelevant. I certainly don’t think that human pollution is a good idea - whether smog over our cities, toxic waste dumped at sea or invisible CO2 in the air - and alternatives should be encouraged. An ETS encourages alternatives.

    • mcdazz says:

      11:56am | 30/11/09

      “Queensland Liberal Senator Ian Macdonald now making a long-winded complaint about the Government wasting time in the Senate.”

      Ha ha ha - oh the irony.

      Oh, and Barrie (12:19pm | 30/11/09).

      “The ETS is Rudd’s grab for glory - he’s driven by his ego.”

      Hmmm - so do you know who spoke the following words just a few weeks back?

      “What Mr Rudd is proposing is not all that different from what I took to the last election”.

      That was John Howard referring to the ETS proposed by the Liberals prior to the last election.

      So, by your reasoning, John Howard must have been grabbing for glory as well?

      The fact is that the Liberals supported an ETS that according to Howard isn’t all that different to Rudds ETS.

      And when you consider that the Liberals have made a number of changes SINCE John Howard made his comment, it must be more of a Liberal ETS than a Labor ETS.

      So then, why won’t the Liberals support their own ETS?

    • Michael All Knowing says:

      11:52am | 30/11/09

      The Liberal Party have made a fatal error. They have aired their differences in public. The best consensus position for the Libs would be 1. To reject the ETS outright (as a high tax plan without actually helping the environment) 2. Introduce massive incentives for business to convert to low carbon energy sources 3. Legislation that all new houses to have solar electricity and water tanks. 4. Huge rebates for electric/hybrid cars. 5 Build 1000 wind generators across the country. 6 Build ten Nuclear Power plants by 2030.

    • Gibbot says:

      11:47am | 30/11/09

      ”“We’re going to discuss accepting disinfected (sic) members from Labor and Liberal whether they want to join Family First,” the Senator said. “

      Disinfected members? Fielding - get out of politics and hit the comedy circuit. Do us all a favour.

    • Manfred Ollie says:

      11:45am | 30/11/09

      Go Malcolm go. This vile political party needs a massive cleanout.

    • Joel B1 says:

      11:44am | 30/11/09

      “7 honorarble gentlemen. “: One persons honourable (or is that horrible?) gentleman is another’s consensus-believing, gore-adoring, hype-loving, disaster-seeking, pseudo-tree-hugging, can’t-think-for-themselves, attention-seeking media tart.

      Oh…  that’s Rudd

    • Rob says:

      11:38am | 30/11/09

      TQS wrote ‘Our next Liberal PM will be a conservative as the previous one, Howard, if not more”
      That is what this is all about- meanwhile the Libs have lost the moderates like myself- hope they enjoy the 25% base of the electorate but will will NOT win them elections. It may help them choke on the pollution.

    • Sarah says:

      11:32am | 30/11/09

      Are there just seven honourable Liberal Senators who will honour their word and pass the ETS. That is all it would take- 7 honorarble gentlemen.

    • David says:

      11:32am | 30/11/09

      DG

      The last Ice Age was about 20,000 years ago and the earth has been warming ever since.  So of course the planet has been warming.  It is just that it is nonsense to just extrapolate forward when evidence shows that we are at the end of a cycle of warming and heading back to an ice age.  The earth was a the same temperature as it is now a 125,000 years ago and there were no cars, factories and other carbon polluters then.  Then over the next 80,000 years it cooled to the ice age as it is beginning to do so now.  This cycle has occurred over 9 times in the last 700,000 years.  Global warming experts are just extrapolating what happened over the last 15,000 years and mostly what has happened over the last 100 years and extrapolating data over a shorter time frame has led to incorrect assumptions.

      The issue is that global warming has been hijacked by propaganda and is not properly debated.  Under Mr Rudd something like 250 scientists have been sacked from the CSIRO.  If you were a scientist would you be challanging Mr Rudd’s policy.  Scientists are having big money thrown at them for researching climate change and no money if they criticise it, hence where we are having a skewing of research.

    • Deliah says:

      11:24am | 30/11/09

      Anthony 11.46am. Excellent post. Fair minded people are disgusted with what Minchin has done. He has well and truly been exposed as a destructive zealot. Reneging on an agreement is un-Australian. Karma may well be on it’s way for him.

    • Barrie says:

      11:20am | 30/11/09

      The ETS is Rudd’s grab for glory - he’s driven by his ego.  At last some liberals have had the stomach to stand up for truth and move away from the ‘climate change fervant religious gravy train’.  Talk about American TV evangelists manipulating the masses, it pales into insignificance compared to the climate change evangelists program.  Mass hysteria driven by fear.  Folks it’s all about power.  Think about it.  What group is the easiest to manipulate?  The voters that Labour campaigned heavily too, the Y Gen, the 20 somethings who have the lowest level of life’s experiences and the longest to live.  So scare them and they will believe you.  Listen to the Labour non-sensical spin rhetoric, its so predictable it’s utterly painful.  Anyone who questions the climate change data and modeling is emotionally labeled a ‘sceptic, a ‘denier’.  That legitimises the Labour argument on climate change in the electorate’s mind and Rudd’s quest for power.  At least Terry McCrann and Andrew Bolt are out there questioning and challenging things AND the Liberal Party is taking action.  I have no problem with Hockey,  Abbot and Liberal et all, changing their ETS positions.  They might have just had a revelation on climate change truth.  It’s honorable to say I was wrong and now I’m changing.  Get with folks!  Turnbull is gone and so will Rudd and his cohorts who are intent on destroying this nation.

    • Barrie says:

      11:19am | 30/11/09

      The ETS is Rudd’s grab for glory - he’s driven by his ego.  At last some liberals have had the stomach to stand up for truth and move away from the ‘climate change fervant religious gravy train’.  Talk about American TV evangelists manipulating the masses, it pales into insignificance compared to the climate change evangelists program.  Mass hysteria driven by fear.  Folks it’s all about power.  Think about it.  What group is the easiest to manipulate?  The voters that Labour campaigned heavily too, the Y Gen, the 20 somethings who have the lowest level of life’s experiences and the longest to live.  So scare them and they will believe you.  Listen to the Labour non-sensical spin rhetoric, its so predictable it’s utterly painful.  Anyone who questions the climate change data and modeling is emotionally labeled a ‘sceptic, a ‘denier’.  That legitimises the Labour argument on climate change in the electorate’s mind and Rudd’s quest for power.  At least Terry McCrann and Andrew Bolt are out there questioning and challenging things AND the Liberal Party is taking action.  I have no problem with Hockey,  Abbot and Liberal et all, changing their ETS positions.  They might have just had a revelation on climate change truth.  It’s honorable to say I was wrong and now I’m changing.  Get with folks!  Turnbull is gone and so will Rudd and his cohorts who are intent on destroying this nation.

    • Sherlock says:

      11:15am | 30/11/09

      @ orangecrush at 11:32am

      Typical strategy of the alarmist. Play the man not the ball. At least Bolt quotes the science something that appears to be difficult for the alarmists to do.Rather than even to attempt to argue the science they do anything they can to assassinate the messenger. Ridicule his credentials, link him to fossil fuels or even tobacco for some reason anything but actually argue the science.

      Ten again, climategate has exposed just how dodgy your science is especially when this type of thing comes up

      SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based. It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years. The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

      Gee that’s handy. One of the big tests for a theory is if other scientists can replicate your results. If the data isn’t available it makes the theory a little hard to validate doesn’t it?

      Of course this may have nothing to do at all with the email sent by Professor Phil Jones, head of the CRU,  in which he said

      ” If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send to anyone”

      It’s probably just a huge coincidence

    • scio says:

      11:13am | 30/11/09

      David says: 12:10pm | 30/11/09   & to all the others who complain they dont know what ETS involves - the Howard government took a very similar ETS to the 2007 election and it is still official Liberal policy. The Rudd government has tabled green papers & white papers for over 12 months. The legislation was tabled early this year & has been negotiated, brilliantly, by the Liberals for over 5 weeks.
      If you are not interested in reading any of this what do you want Rudd to do - send someone to your home to read it to you? Or spend several hundred million dollars on TV ads like Workchoices or GST?
      Is your laziness Rudds fault?

    • Patrick says:

      11:10am | 30/11/09

      Brendan Nelson must be laughing all the way to Brussells.

    • David says:

      11:10am | 30/11/09

      The ETS issue is a powder keg waiting to go off.
      The Liberal party needs a leader willing to step up and light that fuse.
      Malcolm Turnbull refuses, however the Liberal supporter base demands it.
      Only when he is gone can the gloves come off and the real ETS debate begin.
      Most Australians have no idea what the ETS is or how it affects them.
      Kevin Rudds free ride is over.

    • TQS says:

      10:59am | 30/11/09

      So the hot rumour is Malcolm Turnbull will have his Don Chipp moment and create a New Democrats out of the Liberal left. It will fail because of the same reason the Democrats failed. You will always be a claytons centre-left party. Labor and Green voters will admire you, but they will always vote for the real thing in the ALP or the Greens. Kernot’s defection is illustrative of the real politics behind left-liberalism.

      The Liberal progressives have always just free-loaded on the electoral popularity of Conservative policies and politics. Now they are trying to destroy the party and turn it into a centre-left clone of Labor. Let them go into the dustbin of history with their fellow left-liberal Democrats. Our next Liberal PM will be as Conservative as our previous one, Howard, if not more.

    • Randal says:

      10:57am | 30/11/09

      I must say that it is hysterical to read the views of the left mourning the loss of Turnbull, you know you are in enormous trouble politically if the only people that support you are those that you where elected to oppose. This is why Turnbull will be politically terminated tomorrow, he failed those that he was elected to represent. What was expected of Malcolm was to hold the government to account and supporting a terrible piece of legislation that will cost this nation hundred’s of billions of dollars, thousands of jobs and hurt Australian families for decades, whilst failing to reduce an ounce of green house emissions globally was not what was expected when we cast our vote. So we did what one does in a democracy, we spoke up and contacted those within the party to let them know our displeasure at the support of the ETS madness and the party listened. That is how democracy works, the will of the people decides our futures, not the ego’s of two men. Mark my words this country is turning, first Turnbull and then the meglamaniac Rudd, let’s see what happens when he goes to the Australian people with a policy that will tax them to hell and for this reward deliver them nothing… that’s an election campaign I can’t wait to fight!

    • Maree says:

      10:47am | 30/11/09

      I don’t believe the ETS should be passed before Copenhagen, but I laso don’t believe the Libs should change their Leader over it. Let Rudd have his 5 mins of fame in Copenhagen. Malcolm was starting to gain some ground on Rudd. The other idiots in the Liberal Party don’t stand a chance against Rudd, especially Hockey. If they change Leader now Rudd will be PM for the next 25 years.

    • Anthony says:

      10:46am | 30/11/09

      There is no way I will ever trust a party which welches on a bi partisan deal it sought. I do not believe Minchin and co realise how many of their would be supporters they have angered.
      Just when the Libs seemed to be moving more towards the centre they have done a hard right- hopefully to fall over the cliff or choke on the pollution they seem to like so much.

    • Deliah says:

      10:41am | 30/11/09

      Polly at 10.31am. Your comment about Hockey being Beazley without the brains and on a fools errand accurately sums up the situation. I guess there is a faint hope he will have a flash of insight and say no.

    • Kent says:

      10:40am | 30/11/09

      When is Hockey going to make up his mind?????? Talk about a good decision maker? first he asks on twitter then he runs to Howard and we are still waiting. Would make a great PM don’t you think. Less than 24 hrs to go Joe!

    • Mark says:

      10:36am | 30/11/09

      Joe Hockey has repeatly assured that he will NOT put his hand up for a leadership challenge against Turnbull. He has been also the key player in the process of forming the amended ETS. If he now change his mind, I am wondering how he can look into the eyes of not only Turnbull, but all other who have integrity and says they should trust him in the future.

      By the way, as a leader he should be capable of making decision based on his own judgements, not by seeking advises by twitter or by running to John Howard, Peter Costello etc. They will not be there all the time for him.

    • orangecrush says:

      10:32am | 30/11/09

      Bolt - what a laugh.  According to him:
      a. he is one of a few in the world that understands the science;
      b. any ‘report’ against climate change is 100% reliable (e.g. Monckton, leaked emails etc) and anyone that supports climate change being real (e.g. NASA, IPCC, Turnbull etc) is part of a conspiracy.

      Oh to have such high self-esteeem…...

    • BULMKT says:

      10:14am | 30/11/09

      The real loser in all this is our Democracy.

    • jimmy g says:

      10:12am | 30/11/09

      Rudd must be laughing at the bumbling clowns in the Liberal Party - they have no idea what their environmental policy is (officially it is to fully support the ETS that is before the senate)  and are wanting to replace Turnbull with Hockey who are both totally committed to ETS.

      And the sideshow is provided my Barnaby Joyce - representing some 3% of the electorate.It is interesting to read his blog & hear the nonsense regurgitated by his supporters - every paranoid conspiracy theory is there : ETS is a communist conspiracy, a UN conspiracy for new world order, a capitalist banker conspiracy (led by Turnbull) , an evolutionist conspiracy (what - no reptilians in black helicopters???)

    • mcdazz says:

      10:10am | 30/11/09

      God help the Australian worker if Mr Work Choices is elected as the leader of the Liberals.

      Forget the ETS - you will become a slave to the company you work for with Work Choices Ver 2.0.

    • Luke says:

      09:57am | 30/11/09

      Hockey has been nothing short of embarassing as shadow treasurer, so how on earth could he be Leader. If Minchin is so right and so against Turnbull why doesn’t he stand for the Leadership, instead of pushing everyone else out there to do it. Gutless wonder.

    • hoofman says:

      09:53am | 30/11/09

      Tracey Conlan 9:33 - sadly it seems that many Libs do believe that. Some even admitted to succumbing to pressure from Liberal activists after being bombarded by emails etc. This campaign was orchestrated by Bolt, who it would no be an exaggeration to describe as rabid in his climate change denialism. Bolt and likeminded extremist political activists in the media and elsewhere have unofficially declared the whole climate debate as the bridge that must be defended against the leftist climate change believers. Such is the delusion, paranoia, fear and ignorance that has gripped the Liberal Party.

    • Richard says:

      09:53am | 30/11/09

      It’s strange that John Howard was demonised for not being a believer in climate change and despised for it and now all of a sudden everybody has done a 180 degree turn and bringing back all Howards old friends.  It’s funny how a recessions hits and the end of the world or climate change isn’t as important or can wait a while until the government runs out of things to panic the public about.    Why did we bother voting out Howard.

    • Zita D says:

      09:52am | 30/11/09

      Turnbull deserves to remain Leader, his performance lately has been outstanding and he is improving all the time. To get rid of him now would be a disaster for the Liberal Party.

    • soultrader says:

      09:51am | 30/11/09

      Mark Bolton - not a Labor Apologist are you?
      As for enlightened dicussion on climate change - nobody denies the fact that the climate changes. Everybody agrees that something needs to be done to reduce pollution and treat our planet more kindly but what does taxing the shit out of everybody achieve. Oh how blind I have been!!!! That is so people don’t consume so much and therefore don’t pollute so much. What a fantastic ideology?
      Just make the great unwashed totally dependent on your socialist society, keep them repressed and at the bottom of the foodchain to prevent intelligent debate and challenge to the ruling parties.
      And you wonder why I did not vote for Uncle Kevvy and his bozo team.

    • Islander says:

      09:43am | 30/11/09

      Barny (Rabble) Joyce calls the ALP “mercenary” - WTF ??????

    • Polly says:

      09:31am | 30/11/09

      I like Joe (doesn’t everyone?) but he’s not up to this job, especially as he’ll have to represent policies which he, as a moderate, doesn’t believe in.  I think that he’s being used by his party which will ditch him if he doesn’t (and he can’t) deliver.  I wish him well, but he’s on a fool’s errand.  Beazley without the brains, I keep hearing.

    • Rob says:

      09:30am | 30/11/09

      Open your minds to this con poised for us all to pay for the dire straights of the global financial market, let the financial institutes of the world rot in their own mess they created.  Own your own crap and stop sucking the life out of others to bail you out.  Lets expose the real truth behind all of this!  Time for all to WAKE UP!

    • John says:

      09:29am | 30/11/09

      What happened to climategate???

    • Anne says:

      09:29am | 30/11/09

      Fancy the Liberal Party being held hostage by the likes of Wilson Tuckey and the other hard line right wingers.  Hockey will find it very hard to stand up to them. I hope Malcolm wins tomorrow as he is the only one unafraid to modernise the party and have more broadbased appeal.

    • Ted says:

      09:28am | 30/11/09

      Hey David says:10:06am…..IF there is another ice age coming, Global Warming is NOT being dismissed as the cause because nobody yet can be sure of how GW affects all of the planet.  If you’re going to make a broad and sweeping statement, please be complete in your summary.

    • DG says:

      09:28am | 30/11/09

      David -

      In a 15,000 year cycle* can one reasonably rely on a data from set of just 10 years?

      A 0.07% sample (10 years in 15000) would be open to a rather substantial margin of error especially when comparing just a few degrees of temperature change. I think that you’ll find that 10 years on 15000 allows for about 30% margin of error. While a 1000 year study would give about a 3% margin of error.

      *As I understand it the ‘cooler periods’ in the current ice age are usually over the course of a 15,000-30,000 year period, and the cycle has been repeating for the better part of a million years. To give the benefit of the doubt I have used the 15,000 year cycle length.

    • Mark Bolton says:

      09:18am | 30/11/09

      Well aren’t we all just fools. We didn’t listen to [soultrader says:09:54am] earlier when he/she obviously spoke out & debated this subject in public forums & stood up to intelligent challenges.  If we did take heed earlier of his/her brilliant thinking, we could all have ignored the people that do this science for a living & be sitting pretty now without all of this.

      [soultrader says:09:54am]  you MUST run as Lib leader - because you now owe The Liberal Party, this country and this planet.

    • Chris says:

      09:18am | 30/11/09

      Hockeys nuts if he goes for the leadership its a poison chalice. Let Abbot take the next fall the Libs cant win the next election its that simple. Long term Hockey could be the next PM the only other Liberal who has what it takes is if Mal Brough can he make a come back?

    • David says:

      09:06am | 30/11/09

      The greens are ice age sceptics.  There is undeniable evidence that for the last 10 years we have been heading back to an ice age, as part of a cycle of ice ages that have been occuring for 700,000 years.  Global Warming scientists have been withholding the facts from the people that ocean temperatures are cooling.  There is a momentum growing to overcome green propoganda and when people start realising that they are being conned there will be a massive rejection of greens.  As usual journalist are out of touch with silent majoritys, but even now, Mr Rudd will not call for a double dissolution as he is scared of voters reaction to ETS.

    • deano says:

      09:02am | 30/11/09

      If Hockey gets up this will not be the “Sunrise” election, more like the “sunset” election for the Libs!
      As for Peter Dutton….where do you start? the man gave up his seat for a safer one only to be booted back to grovel to the voters he just deserted! The man will be the “Steve Bradbury” of Aust politics!

    • Buster says:

      09:00am | 30/11/09

      Hang in there Turnbull, your the only one with any guts. Your the only one capable of knocking arogant, self obsessed, grandstanding Rudd off his perch. I hope you win tomorrow and get back to holding the Rudd Government to account. You were starting to make in roads, until Minchin and Abbott decided to cause turmoil in the Party. Shut them up tomorrow once and for all!

    • soultrader says:

      08:54am | 30/11/09

      Mankind is a collective fool.
      1970s - nuclear winter - false
      1980s - stockmarket meltdown - end of capitalism - false
      1990s - Y2K - planes falling from the sky - false
      2000s - global warming - or is it climate change - end of the world - well? - false
      2012 - THE MOVIE - the end of mankind - another croc.
      When will we stop going from one mind induced crisis to the next. Stop and smell the flowers - enjoy life - don’t worry, be happy

    • scio says:

      08:50am | 30/11/09

      The dinosaurs are making much of the Alan Jones interview of Lord Monckton

      I understand Alan Jones first met Lord Monkton in the Broadwick Street, London convenience…....it was here they first discussed an ETS

    • John A Neve says:

      08:49am | 30/11/09

      I would like to see Malcolm Turbull start a NEW party, a break from Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum would be good for this country.

      The current polarized two party system is killing Australia.

    • steve says:

      08:47am | 30/11/09

      Helen says
      What the Greens are on about is an ‘all or nothing approach’.
      Our economy would certainly collapse under their proposals. Industry needs time to adapt.
      Their intentions are good but the realities don’t always marry with intent.

    • Bazza says:

      08:44am | 30/11/09

      Hockey is hardly a Leader. I support Malcolm and passing the ETS, oh hang on no I don’t, I support Minchin and Abbott, oh hang on, no I really do support Malcom, then again maybe I support Minchin and Abbott. What a joke you are Mr Hockey. Leadership material? Prime Minister Material? Certianly not!

    • Blair says:

      08:42am | 30/11/09

      John Hewson : “gross disloyalty in normal terms”? That’s a bit rich coming from a man who couldn’t even explain the GST in “normal terms”.

    • Chloe says:

      08:39am | 30/11/09

      I want to get rid of Rudd, and the only person who has any chance at all is Turnbull. Rudd will slaughter any of the others.

    • T.C. says:

      08:35am | 30/11/09

      If Turnbull creates a new party then Labor will be in power for the next 20 years even if they’re fronted by a cane toad.

      And by cane toad I don’t mean Queenslander, I mean an actual frog-like amphibian could run in the election and win against a completely disorganised, dismantled and disemboweled opposition.

    • Deliah says:

      08:35am | 30/11/09

      I wouldn’t be writing Turnbull off. The man is obviously no quitter. If there is any truth that he may start another party, he may have the last laugh. Another political force in Australia is needed. Further, it is possible Hockey may gain some insight and decline the poisoned chalice citing family reasons. As for the repugnant Minchin talking about the will of the people, what a joke. The government does have a mandate and a deal was agreed upon. He is all about division and destruction.

    • Tracey Conlan says:

      08:33am | 30/11/09

      The Liberal Party really has no idea. Do they seriously think they should move to the right to win ? Are they dumb enough to think Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones etc represents the majority view in Australia ? They need to reclaim te centre. Don’t waste your time Joe. This mob will kill your future unless they can reclaim the centre.

    • Wayne Hutchins says:

      08:30am | 30/11/09

      Megan says: 09:15am | 30/11/09
      Where’s Julie Bishop the Deputy Leader in all this?

      GONE! another liability bites the dust…..

    • Frank Scicluna says:

      08:28am | 30/11/09

      Further to the theory by David Speers “Interesting theory doing Liberal rounds: Turnbull loses, quits, creates new party targeting around 25 marginal Liberal seats!”

      How about if rather than creating a new party Turnbull replaces Bob Brown as the leader of The Greens! How interesting will THAT be?

    • Jennifer says:

      08:27am | 30/11/09

      Hockey would be about as useful as an ash tray on a motor bike as Leader.

    • Robert says:

      08:26am | 30/11/09

      Gone - unless the WA Liberals decide to rebel again and secede.

      Reminds me of the Conderate States of America during the 1860’s in one way - arguing about what they DON’T believe in and departing the scene if they did not get their way

    • Island View says:

      08:23am | 30/11/09

      I love the theory @9:09 - fascinating to ponder

    • Mark Bolton says:

      08:19am | 30/11/09

      Let me see if I can understand this properly…..
      The way The Liberal Party is performing now is astonishing enough but the way they’re trying to heal the party is even more confusing.  Joe Hockey has backed, supported & defended Malcolm Turnbull against the rebel fools but now it’s possible he’s going to become chief fool & all off a sudden reject everything he’s been saying.

      If that’s not bad enough, if Mr Hockey challenges, he’s going to run with Peter Dutton who has not snow balls chance now of winning his seat after his attempt to evacuate Dickson because it all looked too hard.  Even his new position in the party will not save this guy & if these two go into an election together as a leadership team, their Deputy will lose his seat & humiliate them even more.  What’s healing about this move?

      It seems that whoever leads this party now, they will be doing what Minchin & Abbott tell them to anyway & that’s hardly leadership.  The Liberal Party is destined to become a thing of the past because of these two.

      It all is now clear.  They are all fools

    • BundyGil says:

      08:19am | 30/11/09

      The greens don’t like the ETS because it’s not green enough. The neanderthals don’t like the ETS because it’s too green. The government must have it just about right.
      What the neanderthals seem to forget is this current ETS proposal is the best deal they’ll ever get.
      If this ETS ges down, the next one will be an entirely different kettle of fish. One the libs will scream impotently about.

    • DG says:

      08:18am | 30/11/09

      Your poll assumes that the Libs had credibility to lose.

      On a more serious note, Hockey seems to be the one that has the most to lose out of this. Not only will he sacrifice his integrity (after saying he believes in the ETS and making it before Copenhagen), as well as the image of a loyal and respectable individual, he’ll lose the thing that sets him apart from the rest of the ‘contenders’ (Abbot, Andrews et al), his reputation as a “loyal” bloke.

      After the Party agreed to support the ETS (which, if the papers are to be believed, they did last week), those that have vowed to betray their leader have shown their true political colours. Namely, they are disloyal. As such they cannot be trusted by the electorate or their colleagues. I suppose it comes down to whether Hockey wants to be seen as “loyal” or a “dealer”.

    • Matt says:

      08:17am | 30/11/09

      I love the Green voters who bleat that they don’t want “this” ETS.
      Here’s a prediction - Bob Brown will NEVER vote for any ETS/carbon tax/whatever proposed by Labor.
      Because as soon as he does, his donations dry up.
      Being Green is big business these days.

    • john says:

      08:17am | 30/11/09

      He Joe,Take Your hockey stick and bucket,and go home
      What a Bunch of disunited and backstabbers…..
      you all are.Malcolm has shown that he has belief in his actions.
      It’s up to you guys to fall in line to save the Planet,Kevin has taken the
      lead globaly for our children of tomorrow,Don’t screw it up!!!

    • Megan says:

      08:15am | 30/11/09

      Where’s Julie Bishop the Deputy Leader in all this?

    • Robert W says:

      08:09am | 30/11/09

      I hope Turnbull gets up on Tues and then we can put all this Leadership stuff to bed finally, thats been dogging the Libs ever since Turnbull became Leader. If Turnbull wins he has more than proven he is the only one capable of Leading the Libs. He has given his party 2 chances now to throw him out and if they don’t it has to be said he deserves to be leader. If Hockey gets up, the Leadership issue thats been dogging the Libs will continue. Hockey is not a Leader and will only make even bigger fools out of the Libs, Hockey has made a fool out of himself as shadow trreasurer, imagine how stupid he will look as Leader.

    • Sherlock says:

      08:04am | 30/11/09

      @ Mr. Peabody at 08:48am

      In other words the Greens won’t support a scheme that introduces a new tax on everything yet won’t do anything to reduce any effects of climate change. Perhaps they might think that if you’re going to slug every Australian every year you might as well achieve something worthwhile instead of this do nothing scheme.

      hen the Greens are the political party making the most sense on anything I start to worry

    • Steve says:

      08:02am | 30/11/09

      With the ETS tax, if we go to a double dissolution, remember this

      ETS tax - If you dont understand it, vote against it.

      If you understand it - then for sure you will never vote for it

    • George says:

      07:53am | 30/11/09

      Malcom Turnbull is Liberal’s Mark Latham.  Unhinged, self harming and with out loyalties.

    • ELBOWGREASE says:

      07:52am | 30/11/09

      What about that dud Dutton as Deputy leader? The bloke won’t even have a seat after the next election.  Scraping the barrel.

    • Helen says:

      07:51am | 30/11/09

      Matt, the reason the Greens don’t support the government’s ETS is that it’s a poorly framed one. It enables big business to go on emitting and simply purchase “indulgences”, medieveal Church style, in the form of carbon credits “earned” elsewhere by others, while compensating them hugely for any changes they make. It’s not likely to be effective.
      I other words, just because the Greens want emissions reduction doesn’t mean they have to support a stupid policy which pretends to address emission reduction but really does stuff all.

    • Mr. Peabody says:

      07:48am | 30/11/09

      @Matt

      The Green are in favour of an ETS. Just not this one because it doesn’t go far enough.

    • Kate says:

      07:46am | 30/11/09

      Hockey should never have been made shadow treasurer let alone the Leader. What a joke. Hockey as PM? you have to be delusional to believe that.

    • Blair says:

      07:43am | 30/11/09

      I am so loving the content on Le Punch these days. My #1 news/politics site. Well done guys. These blogs/roundups are awesome.

    • Pedro says:

      07:38am | 30/11/09

      Turnbull is the only one who has any chance of sticking it to Rudd. Rudd and Labor will make mince meat out of Hockey. You think they’ve have been ruthless with Turnbul,l you ain’t seen anything if Hockey becomes Leader. Hockey couldn’t fight his way out of a paper bag. He always looks like he’s not sure what to say next, and Turnbull is right when he says Hockey will just be the mouth piece for Minchin and Abbott. Hockey appears to be a nice bloke. but he is definately not a Leader and definately has no chance in the world agianst Rudd. Best to stick with Malcom he was starting to make some ground on Rudd over the last couple of months.

    • Matt says:

      07:38am | 30/11/09

      Does anyone else find it ironic that the Greens aren’t supporting the ETS?
      Could it be they realise that an ETS - or any other scheme, tax whatever (and however effective or not) will remove their reason for being?
      Because why would you vote Green at the next election if Labor is the only party that’s actually done something about climate change?
      Bob Brown and his cynical band of fellow travellers only care about one thing - getting votes.
      And for them, getting votes means they can claim “only we can act on climate change…”

    • June says:

      07:37am | 30/11/09

      I have seen no real evidence that Joe Hockey has what it takes to lead the opposition let alone the country.  He radiates bonhomie but if you try to analyse any policy comment he makes there is actually no substance to what he says - just buzz words.  I think that Tony Abbott is keen to see Joe Hockey take the reins now as he knows it will be temporary, and Tony will then be ready to strike after Joe has lead the coalition to a defeat.

    • THE CAKE IS A LIE AND SO IS THE ETS says:

      07:32am | 30/11/09

      Turnbull thought he would bully this tax through so he could go back to a very rewarding position at Goldman Sachs. Lets hope whoever replaces him has the guts to stop this tax and start exposing the biggest fraud of the century.  Why hasn’t the worst scientific scandal of our generation even made it to the nightly news or the mainstream media. Do they think if they ignore it it will go away. Speaks volumes about how we are given selective biased information in msm in Australia. Disgraceful. STOP THE ETS. AUSTRALIANS PAY ENOUGH TAX ALREADY.

    • Soj says:

      07:27am | 30/11/09

      Rudd doesn’t care about Aussies, the ETS should not be rushed through, Rudd needs an ego trip for Copenhagen. Vote Rudd out and send a message to government to work for the people and not their own personal agenda.

    • scio says:

      07:22am | 30/11/09

      One of Turnbulls first backstabbers, Mitch Fiflield has launched the new Liberal chant today :  “The partyroom is committed to action on climate change ”  - how is it “committed” if the puppetmasters , such as Minchin, deny climate change is taking place?

      How is ETS “Rudds new tax” or “Rudds ETS” is the Liberals negotiated for 5 weeks , had all their amendements accepted by the Rudd government & shadowe cabinet voted in favour of the negotiated ETS?

      These buffoons have had more positions on ETS than they had excuses for invading Iraq

    • Deliah says:

      07:06am | 30/11/09

      Joe Hockey is a bigger fool than I thought if he accepts the poisoned chalice from the plotters. No-one likes a back stabber who reneges on deals. As for Peter Dutton, his seat of Dickson after redistribution is Labor. What a joke. The dynamic duo they are not.

    • Michael says:

      07:03am | 30/11/09

      Who do you believe in the polls? I see here you choose to take newspolls, Turnbull down to 14%, there is another poll Turnbull prefered PM up 4 points and Rudd down 3 points, how come you choose not to print that poll?

    • Jannie says:

      06:42am | 30/11/09

      Christmas coming soon . Joe
      How will you spend your 30 pieces of silver?

    • Frank Scicluna says:

      06:33am | 30/11/09

      The most interesting finding for me from the various polls published here is the following one

      “Since the last poll three weeks ago, the biggest mover was the Greens, whose primary vote rose 4 percentage points to 13 per cent, their highest rating in 37 years.”

      Is there anyone prepared to give me odds that by the election AFTER next, the Greens will win more combined Lower House and Senate seats than both the Coalition Parties put together?

      I can already hear the laughter coming from most of you but think about it!

    • Wayne Hutchins says:

      06:23am | 30/11/09

      It’s all over!! The papers and tv are all using flattering shot’s of Joe and unflattering shots of Turncoat….Speaks volumes to me!!! Anyone else notice?

 

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