There are plenty of normal Australians – normal being defined as prone to uncharacteristic lapses of judgment – who have a dark tale involving an incident of drink-driving where they could easily have killed themselves, a friend, an unsuspecting stranger.

Same again mate? Errrrr, not sure…

Whenever I see former British Prime Minister Tony Blair I’m reminded of mine. Unlike most of my mates I got through my teens and most of my 20s without ever drink-driving, in large part because I didn’t bother getting my licence until I was 22 and escaped the road-related rattiness that comes with youth.

All except for the day of the 1997 British election, when with friends I’d attended a dawn breakfast at the National Press Club in Canberra to watch the BBC coverage, where we ate a hearty English breakfast laid on by the British High Commission, washed down with English beer. Lots of English beer.

So much English beer that, by noon, I was half-cut and keen to kick on, shamefully telling my mates I was fine to drive the short distance to lunch, and some four hours later, by which stage none of us knew what we were doing, fine to drive the short distance to my apartment to continue the carry-on.

If one of the drunkest moments in your life can also be the most sobering, I will never forget the look on my wife’s face when she arrived home to find us listening to deafening music and drinking tequila, and said above the din – “I thought you took the car today and, if so, why is it in the driveway?”

The two good things that came out of this reckless act, in order, are that nobody got hurt and I’ve never done it again. And nor would I.

It’s hard to imagine more selfish and extraordinarily dangerous behaviour than putting a car in motion, especially one with other people in it, when you’ve had a skinful. But for all the shock ad campaigns, RBT blitzes, tougher penalties, there’s evidence that in some states the number of drink-drivers is going up, not down. In NSW last year there was a 10 per cent spike, with 27,548 drivers caught, up from 25,284 in 2007.

There’s a case before the courts in Sydney now which should give pause to those who argue that the laws are too skewed against the more restrained drinker who, unlike my Canberra shocker, has two or three drinks, doesn’t even feel drunk, and ends up having a prang.

It involves a fellow called Gregory Francis Campbell who had three pints after work and blew what people refer to as “just” 0.085 – which is classified as low-range PCA – after his vehicle crashed into an oncoming car, killing four-year-old Tahlia Gilmour.

Cases such as these should end the legally-permitted flirtation between alcohol and driving.

Melbourne’s Sunday Herald-Sun newspaper deserves accolades for starting the debate over whether to adopt a 0.02 limit. The Daily Telegraph has also editorialised to that effect.

My only query is whether such calls go far enough.

That’s not written as a nanny state enthusiast – far from it. It’s written as someone who supports the right of adults to get drunk and have fun.

But that should never involve using a car. There’s no reason why people can’t plan their get-togethers, be they slightly tipsy or the full lampshade-on-the-head blowout, to make sure that they use public transport, cabs, have a sober skipper, or sleep it off.

The best anti-drinking ad is by Victoria’s TAC where two blokes try to work out if they’re under or over the limit, with the barmaid pouring and re-filling tiny portions of beer out of their pots.

It’s impossible to work out. Why does the law let us try?

72 comments

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    • SD says:

      06:48am | 20/10/09

      Here’s one solution:

      All beer should be adjusted to equal one standard drink per glass / bottle.

      In New Zealand, most if not all of the local bottle beers are one standard drink and this makes it very easy to judge how much you have had.

      It’s quite sobering to see half a dozen cans in front of you and not feel drunk - but you know that you must be.

    • Margarita says:

      06:50am | 20/10/09

      Why mess around with .02? Let’s take all guesswork out of it, make it 0.0. If we’re going to have the debate, draft legislation, make parliament vote, have the education campaign, and whatever else, let’s just cut the crap and make booze and car keys mutually exclusive.
      Part of the problem is trusting people to make decisions when they don’t seem to be able to. An all or nothing situation means people have to decide right at the start of the night what they’re doing. And if we can’t get through the night alcohol free, then whether or not one’s over .05 is only one of the serious issues that need confronting.

    • bruce says:

      07:03am | 20/10/09

      I do not think the limit should be reduced to zero. It is different in the cities where you have access to taxis and public transport. I live in rural QLD and often go into town on a friday after noon sit down with a couple of mates and have 2 Golds in 2 hours and then drive home. There is no reason why that should be made illegal. I think we need to just hammer it home a lot more, recently on Facebook there was a video of road safety that I saw and because of them I will never speed again.

    • Tim says:

      07:37am | 20/10/09

      Nearly every drink sold in bars has about the same alcohol but for some reason that didn’t defined as “a standard drink” even though it is by common usage.  Maybe its time to redefine a standard drink.

    • Lexi says:

      07:43am | 20/10/09

      Excellent article David.  Couldn’t agree more - when I went to the VicRoads website to watch the video, I saw another video - where a driver who thought a couple of beers made him ok to drive hit and killed a little boy, and the driver sees the little boy everywhere.  It’s powerful.

      The 0.02 idea covers drivers for the listerine or cough syrup that may give a false positive.  But it should make it clear to drivers - if you’re drinking, you’re not driving; if you’re driving, you’re not drinking.

      Is one beer worth the risk?

      @bruce - I come from the country too.  I don’t see why having a couple of beers is more important than saving lives.  It’s pretty simple - have a beer at home, have a coke at the pub or have a drink where you can walk home.  If any of you have partners, (older) kids, parents or flatmates who can drop you off and pick you up, you can have your beers at the pub.  No situation is impossible.  I saw and shared that FB video too - it’s a powerful preventative measure.

      David, do you have the figures to hand on the difference in reaction time for 0.05 BAC compared to zero?

    • JC says:

      07:44am | 20/10/09

      So what do we do about prescription drugs.  We have so many people off their face behind the wheel on prescription drugs?

    • Zeta says:

      08:13am | 20/10/09

      @ JC - prescription drugs aren’t the problem. Amongst the spectrum of effects alcohol has on the human brain, are increased alpha wave activity (so you’re basically asleep at the wheel), along with ataxia (which includes drastically reduce hand-eye co ordination) and slowed reaction time.

      These are the side effects of alcohol that kill in cars. The reduction in hand eye co-ordination from imbiding alcohol is much worse than that from a prescriptive amount of a common benzodiazepine anti depresant; which are the drugs most likely to cause similar symptoms.

      The alcohol industry in particular likes to make out that other drugs are just as dangerous while driving, which is why we now have (ineffectual) random drug testing regimes in most States. It’s a distraction from the real problem though. Drunk people are stupid, and will try to drive their cars home. People on drugs are either smart enough to not drive, or so high that they’re physically incapable of driving.

    • Tony says:

      08:14am | 20/10/09

      ,085 is still illegal, despite being low range - because people are driving beyond the law now does not mean they will suddenly stop doing so. Because you were stupid enough to drive over the limit (way over from the sound of it) it doesn’t mean that the limit should be lowered. Where is the proper peer-reviewed research to show that dropping to .02 will improve road safety? Where is the evidence that this is a causal factor in crashes?

    • Mike says:

      08:29am | 20/10/09

      In NSW, 10 years or so ago, statistics showed 20% of road fatalities involved alcohol, but not necessarily as a contributing factor. This showed that 80% of road fatalities were caused by people who hadn’t been drinking. Dropping PCA to .02 is a knee jerk reaction by academic wowsers. You could probably make a case that high cholestorol causes road accidents. Some people probably wake up at .01 to start with. My golf club is 7km away. As it is now, I can only have 2 stubbies after a round, meaning you can’t even have a shout with a foursome. To reduce the PCA further, or make it zero, will not prevent road accidents or fatalities, most of which are caused by sober drivers.

    • Julia says:

      08:34am | 20/10/09

      And true to form, someone pipes up with something about drugs when the theme today is ‘zero blood alcohol’.

    • Tim says:

      08:38am | 20/10/09

      Lexi,
      the problem is you’re assuming that changing the level will save lives and that these accidents were caused by alcohol. Where is the evidence that there is any difference in driving capability between 0.02 to 0.05? I’d suggest people talking, eating or listening to the radio while driving would probably affect driving skills just as much.

    • hoofman says:

      08:46am | 20/10/09

      I’m ashamed to say that I often drove a car when I knew I might be over .05 and sometimes, even when I’d had a real skinful. When I was older I grew wise enough to leave the car at home when I was going somewhere that might involve a drink. Trouble was, I’d relax and lose all restraint over drinking, as though driving while drunk was the only issue. I eventually woke up to myself last year after drinking myself paralytic at a long lunch. Haven’t touched a drop in 18 months and better for it.

      I can’t agree with the likes of Mike at 9:29am. Mate, alcohol doesn’t cause all the accidents but it’s indisputable that the road toll fell dramatically after the introduction of RBT 25 or so years ago. If your local is only 7km from home that’s reason why you can leave the car at home if you want a drink, not an argument for the opposite case.

    • Shayne says:

      08:50am | 20/10/09

      I agree Mike. If people want to look at statistics.. look at them all.
      Children are killed by vehicle drivers, intoxicated and not. It is certainly a tragedy. Hard moving object meets squishy person.. never good.

    • Arnie says:

      08:54am | 20/10/09

      A bloke in Nth Qld this morning sets a probable new record with a reading 8 times over the limit. We are looking at the wrong end of the problem.  As the author of the article, I did some very silly things in my youth which I’ve never repeated and consider myself a law-abiding citizen.  I would really resent it if, after sharing a bottle of wine with my wife over dinner on a Friday night not planning to go out, that I get a phone call from my daughter that she has missed the last bus after a movie and could I pick her up and I’m restricted from doing so because of a 0 or .02 limit.  Leave the .05 limit alone but massively increase penalties for offenders who are over and ENFORCE them.  I’m sick to death of hearing about drink drivers who have their licenses suspended but hop in their cars and carry on as usual.  Confiscate their cars and sell them to recoup the fines which most of them never pay.  These are the real problems on the road and cause a lot more carnage and heartache than those who have a reading between .02 & .05.

    • Jugger says:

      09:23am | 20/10/09

      Well said @Arnie.  Dropping the limit is never going to stop the morons who regularly drink drive from doing so, we need to make sure that these people don’t re-offend, and that means harsher penalties.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:34am | 20/10/09

      If we are fairdinkum, we should push for zero alcohol, all roads whould be dua carriageways and vehicles should be limited to 100Klm’s per hour.

      Then we would have zero deaths wouldn’t we?  Bullshit, people cause accidents, not roads, not drugs, not speed. As the number of vehicles on our roads increases, so will the number of accidents.

      It’s natures way, it’s called survival of the fittest.

    • Shane says:

      10:03am | 20/10/09

      I’m on board with Margarita! Why mess about with .02… it appears from the various data bouncing around, and the nature of the standard drink, that keeping ‘just legal’ is a bit of an art; and one few can master. So how much more tricky .02? As for the spurious confessions and declarations of stupidity for past acts. Well as much as they may appear remorseful, they end up being no more than poorly disguised bragging anecdotes for the aging. The sad reality is that the stories don’t ward off potential young offenders, but in part only reinforce the idea that… ‘getting hammered and driving home and not getting caught’ is all part the now tragic debris of pseudo rites of passage for young males. Wouldn’t it be refreshing to see real men can start modeling conduct of worth that is not alcohol fueled or assisted? 0.0 can only give that possibility a nudge in the right direction.

    • Michael says:

      10:13am | 20/10/09

      What is really needed is some sound research which is subject to genuine review.  “Peer review” is too often conducted by sycophants and is worse than useless. Much of my working life was involved in assessment of research and most research into road safety is extremely poor. Too much road safety measures are political response to noisy campaigns instead of rational analysis.
      The Victorian figures for fatalities where a driver was between .02 and .05 were 39 over 5 years ie less than 8 per year out of an average of about 320 per year or 2.5%. Assuming that half of these were caused by the driver with this BAC range then the MAXIMUM reduction in fatalities would be 1.25%.  In pure economic terms the cost of this preventitive measure would far outweigh the benefits. The scarce Government resources should be put into more productive measures.
      What needs to be done before any measures are taken is some clear research so that an optimal level can be found. Zero is grossly excessive - you cannot measure zero nor can the human detect this so it is impractical. There is a balance somewhere between a dangerous level and reasonable restriction and this must be determined with a cool headed evaluation.
      There are abundant sources of information. Drivers who crash must have their BAC checked and RBT gives a profile of the BAC of drivers; combining these two with a forensic (not emotional) assessment of crash causation would give a clear indication of the risk curve and a balance of risk vs cost vs benefits will point to the optimal solution.
      Scare campaigns by newspapers usually result on wrong measures.

    • Megan says:

      10:16am | 20/10/09

      I don’t know that decreasing the limit would stop those who would drive over the .05 limit from driving still.  If they are silly enough to drive over the higher limit, they are probably still going to be silly enough to drive over the lower limit too.

      I agree with Arnie and Jugger - it’s the enforcing of the punishments and penalities that need to be tougher.

    • Budz says:

      10:16am | 20/10/09

      SD, what’s the point in making all beers 1 standard drink? Do you think that everyone can metabolise alochol at the same rate? Im pretty sure a 100 kilo make can drink more than a 50 kilo female and stay under the limit. Everyone is so different that I wouldn’t trust the 2 for the first hour and 1 for every hour after that.

    • Duncan says:

      10:40am | 20/10/09

      Wouldn’t it be a damn sight more economical (and practical) to make breathalysers mandatory in every licensed venue rather than take the limit to 0? Before everyone goes off the deep end how about we look at practical solutions that makes the current system more effective rather than trying to overhaul our whole drinking culture?
      Also, if the limit is zero it doesn’t change the fact that people will still drink and then drive - it just changes the timeframe. You don’t avoid the problem of people’s judgement being impaired by booze resulting in them thinking they’re ‘ok to drive’.

    • SM says:

      10:44am | 20/10/09

      Some of the confusion as to how many drinks you can have and stay under the limit is down to the lies told by just about every high profile person who gets caught over the limit as to how much they drank.  Especially (former) A-League soccer coaches.

      Keep the limit as is.  If you’ve had a drink or 3, and have any doubts as to whether you’re over or under, don’t drive.

    • rm52 says:

      11:01am | 20/10/09

      well said Penbo, i’m a very retired truckie who lived for years with a professional limit of .02,for the life of me i can’t see what the ojection is to setting that as the national limit.I always find it cool here in perth when I drive past the site of a RBT station & see the guilty ones cars are parked,locked on the verge ,awaiting towing, my thoughts are always the same,thats 1 idiot not behind the wheel any longer tonite.One thing tho,their license should cease to a priviledge from that moment ,not when they front a beak.

    • Hamish says:

      11:14am | 20/10/09

      Many factors can contribute to an accident - alcohol is only one of them.
      Speed kills, distractions kill and inexperience kills - whether the driver is drunk or not (and recently U-turns have almost killed).  But always travelling at 20 km/h, not allowing music or passengers in a car and only allowing experienced drivers on the road is not practical.  A .02 limit would also be impractical, and potentially have only a neglibile impact on the road toll anyway.

      It may sound a lttle obvous, and not too insightful, but everyone just needs to be sensible and careful on the road - all the time.  And if anyone can not do this of their own accord; rules, regulations, speed limits, bans and penalties need to be designed to deter dangerous driving and elicit the appropriate behaviour from all road users.

    • Phil says:

      11:15am | 20/10/09

      @Duncan Agreed!

      Regardless of whether it’s 0.05, 0.02 or 0.10 (as it is in many states in the US) - the fact is, in most places you have no way of testing yourself before you hit the road.

      Other than the “2 drinks in the first hour then 1 ever hour ” rule of thumb, charging someone with a crime where they have little concrete way of measuring themselves is ridiculous.

      It’s like charging you with tax evasion, but not giving you access to your group certificate.

      Mandatory breathalysers in pubs. 

      At least then, once you’ve tested yourself 100 or so times, you would know what “0.05” felt like and what your personal limits were.

    • h says:

      11:45am | 20/10/09

      Part of the puzzle is we don’t value and appreciate the sober skipper / designated driver / whatever you want to call them. We have a real culture of “nah come on mate have a drink ya big girls blouse!” when it should be “designated driver? you bloody legend!”

      Don’t agree? Try ordering a light beer sometime. See how people act.

    • SD says:

      11:58am | 20/10/09

      Budz :

      Sorry, I thought it was obvious.

      As I said, this makes it easier to gauge how many drinks one has had.

      Quickly now, in your head: What’s 1+1+1+1?
      Now, what’s 1.4+1.2+1.6+0.9?

      Get my drift?

    • Susan says:

      12:05pm | 20/10/09

      I’ve read studies arguing in favour of reducing the limits in states of the USA (where limits are mostly 0.08) to 0.05, which demonstrate that 0.05 is about the point where impairment of judgment starts to kick in a bit. 0.02 is really no more dangerous than 0, and we risk people saying the limit is just a fun police thing rather than a public safety matter, and therefore not following it appropriately, if we make it too low.

      I think something we need to look at is the culture around drinking when you’re marginal - people who decide to drive while under the influence tend to think more in terms of “nah mate I’ll be right I won’t get caught” rather than “nah mate I won’t kill someone, promise”. We need for the mates of the person who says there probably won’t be an RBT on the way home to stand up and say “I don’t care about you being done for DUI, I care about you veering onto the wrong side of the road and killing yourself or someone else”. Even the ads about drink driving in Canberra (where the guy drives home and imagines just about every vehicle around him is a cop car) are geared towards “don’t do it cos you’ll get caught”. I guess it’s the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, that we need to get through.

    • karlo says:

      12:10pm | 20/10/09

      I don’t even get why people drink drive. For me driving in adelaide especially is a pain to begin with where people tailgate you and swap lanes and so forth.
      I am not going to spoil a nice drink by putting myself in that stressful situation, ever.

    • G Dalton says:

      12:23pm | 20/10/09

      Aviation goes even further you cannot fly an aircraft if you have consumed alcohol within the previous 10 to 12 hours.  Why allow one to operate a lethal weapon such as a car or truck with ANY alcohol present. The easiest way to create a level playing field where one has absolutely no chance of entering arguments like “I only had 2 beers” or the like is to make 0.00 the base level when operating anything. And that means no booze within the previous 10 hours at least. Cars, trains, busses, trucks, cranes etc etc. blanket zero   Prelim breath test. NO exceptions .

    • bob builder says:

      12:26pm | 20/10/09

      Some people have the ability of a driver at .285 %  , and they don’t even drink.

    • Cameron Price-Austin says:

      12:29pm | 20/10/09

      Jeremy Clarkson (from Top Gear) wrote an interesting piece in the UK Times. He tells how he has one of those arcade driving simulators (Sega Rally or something similar) in his house. He plays it all the time and has become so good that of his top ten times, the top eight are all identical and the next two are only off by a few milliseconds.

      But, as soon as he has a single glass of wine he can’t get anywhere near his fastest time. He doesn’t feel any different, but a single glass of wine affects his reactions and impacts on his driving.

      Of course, Clarkson went on to suggest drink driving should be legal as long as you only do 15kmph and have a flashing green light on top of your car smile

    • Rob says:

      01:08pm | 20/10/09

      So you bludged off your mates and didn’t take your share of responsibility as designated driver.

      Interesting.

    • Kym Durance says:

      01:09pm | 20/10/09

      The notion of a standard drink is only relevant while it is stil in the glass - once it’s consumed the notion of “standard” and its effects goes ot the window under the inflence of other variables - weight, gender, mood, other drugs, liver function, renal function -  - Zero works for me.

    • Sam Chowder says:

      01:16pm | 20/10/09

      Far more concerning, than driving ability diminishing after drink, is the belief that one’s conversation becomes extremely amusing.

    • ratter says:

      01:16pm | 20/10/09

      We could also reduce the road toll by having someone walk in front of all vehicles waving a red flag. But perhaps we need to consider how result effective the proposed restriction is, and to justify it.
      Those who use PC driving simulations and do so sober, at 0.02, 0.05 and also well over legal limits consistently achieve personal best scores at 0.02.
      Ought we not at least validate dropping from a proven, effective 0.05 against scientific evidence before we act? I have seen no research yet that proves this hypothesis and If I did I would support lowering to 0.02.

    • Barry Nosworthy says:

      01:18pm | 20/10/09

      Professionals in transport - truckies, taxi drivers, bus drivers, pilots, shipos captaions etc are all zero tolerance.

      Why this would not ap[ply to amateurs is beyond me.

    • Bob says:

      01:19pm | 20/10/09

      So, Penberthy, drink driving laws didn’t stop you from doing it, so what exactly is your point? As for the 0.085 argument, that’s already above the 0.05 limit - as well as the old 0.08 limit - so again, what is your point?

    • Henry Johnson says:

      01:20pm | 20/10/09

      And where exactly are we going to get all the extra police officers to enforce such a law.  In an ideal world 0.000% would be wonderful but you also have to be realistic.  People don’t obey the current law as it stands.  And no it is not always a case of “Oh I didn’t think I would be over.”  These cases form a minority.  If you want police do be enforcing laws other than drink driving then some common sense must be used.  And no public servants can’t be used to conduct RBT as by the time you train them with all the powers necessary they may as well be police anyway.

    • DG says:

      01:23pm | 20/10/09

      h (12:45pm | 20/10/09)

      I agree entirely. As someone that doesn’t really drink I’ll have the odd light beer or maybe a full strength. Often some joker at the pub gives you a hard time but seriously, it doesn’t bother me. At uni however, there was a standing “rule” that the designated driver NEVER had to pay for a drink. Drinkers pay for the driver - and, depending on where we were going, would throw in a feed as well.

      I think it really depends on your mates.

      ______________

      In think that the suggestion that 0.00 will solve the problem is naïve at best. It’s illegal to speed, but people still do it every day because the chances of actually getting caught are so remote. Why do we think that drink driving is any different? We talk about our few hundred deaths a year, but really, in terms of the number of drink drivers out there it is NOTHING. The chances of being in an accident are still incredibly remote - you’ve got a better chance of getting caught driving with PCA. I know a watering hole where a group of regulars routinely drive home with a skin full. I wish the cops would set up an RBT and collect the lot of ‘em, but it’ll never happen.  (I cant find any stats on the number of alcohol related accidents compared to the number of people caught PCA).

      If they want to stop drink driving, get some cops out on the road. I’d be lucky to see one cop car every 3 months - and in 10 years of driving I’ve been breath tested ONCE. With those sort of stats, the biggest risk is that you’ll lose your license, and the actual chance of getting stopped is virtually zero.

      Having said that I don’t drink and drive - I feel bad enough if I’ve had one light beer and then drive home 3 hours later.

    • stephen says:

      01:41pm | 20/10/09

      A big blog about the grog, and now there’s a push to legalize ‘illicit’ drugs ?
      Are yer crazy ?

    • E says:

      01:49pm | 20/10/09

      all these social policies based on education seem to miss the point that past a certain point they stop reducing the problem.
      30 years ago, people REALLY didnt think that drink driving was a big deal, maybe for other people but not for them. These people are suceptible to education, the repetition of facts and figures along with emotive content will eventually cause them to reconsider their behavior.
      Then there are the other people, who no matter how often you tell them not to, will decide that the rules dont apply to them. These people can never be reached by education campains, often not even by fear of punishment, these are the people we have jails for.
      So dropping the limit to 0.02 or 0.00 wont stop the guy who doesnt pay any attention to 0.05, it will just make it harder to obey the law for those who are already inclined to do the right thing.

    • Barry Nosworthy says:

      01:49pm | 20/10/09

      Those that decry the notion of zero tolerance and site lack of detection as the problem give up too easily!

      Make it zero tolerance, and the penalty for a first offence 180 days licence suspension, and tie that to a serious education program AND a period of high focus from police - it won;t take long for peple to get the message, as well as for smart folk to build business opportunities off the back of it.

      As to arguing that there will still be some folk who ignore the law, and or do not get caught, based on that logic, all laws would be useless, wouldn’t they?

      If you are determined to set your standards by the lowest common denominator, rather than the highest, we are all doomed!!

    • Barry Nosworthy says:

      02:12pm | 20/10/09

      So, E, those who flagrantly disregard the rule/law, whatever it might be, should then have the weight of the punishment reflect society’s wishes. You will see I said education AND high focus on enforcement - let’s say for example, first offence 180 days licence suspension, second offence weekend jail for three months?

    • E says:

      02:16pm | 20/10/09

      Hi Barry Nosworth,

      Your argument only makes a shred of sense if there is a real link in reduced alcohol fatalities and accidents between 0.02 BAC and 0.05BAC. I have not seen any evidence of this. Therefore even with 100% adherence to the new law, you will not save one life.

    • BB says:

      03:04pm | 20/10/09

      The Japanese experience show s that zero BAC does work. Only 12,000 drink driving offences occur per year - less than 1 in every 10,000 people. In Japan it is an offence to have a BAC over 0.01%. Mandatory prison sentences (3-6 months for a first low-level offence) and loss of license apply for any drink driver. It is even an offence to be a passenger in car with a drink driver.

    • Tim says:

      03:08pm | 20/10/09

      Barry Nosworthy,
      I’m assuming you are in support of 6month licence suspension for those caught using mobile phones, eating or talking while driving. These have all been shown to affect driving capability on similar levels to a BAC of 0.02.

    • Jeff from Meroo says:

      03:18pm | 20/10/09

      David, David, David…  oh Dave no not you too mate.  There are so many things wrong with your article that I can’t believe you actually put your name to it.  Seriously did you lose a bet or something?

      1)  What about country pubs?  Zero is great in a nice big city with heaps of public transport and you only live in the inner west….  but in your recent road trip I’m sure you went through a country town or two.  Did you stop and ask yourself how the average cocky would fair and what would happen to those towns when the pub shut?

      2)  Tony @ 09:14am is spot on.  Unless you’ve got a punishment…  seriously mate you’re wasting your time with the law.  That bloke in Mildura ran over and killed 6 teenagers alongside the road and got 6 years for his stuff up.  If that is the WORST that can happen, seriously what is the point of even bothering performing the RBT?  I’m just going to get a slap on the hand and it’ll hurt less than the paperwork the police have to fill out.

      3)  Your point about drink driving increasing ...  mate I’m not convinced.  You show me a stat that says police checked the same number of drivers this year as they did last year and the rate went up 10% then you may be onto something.  I’d put my money on the increase in number of RBT’s leading to the increase in the number of people blowing over the limit.

    • Nacho says:

      03:36pm | 20/10/09

      If we can get half a dozen air bags, gps units, cd players and whatever else placed in vehicles as standard in the name of safety - why can’t we install breathalysers as well?

    • Budz says:

      03:39pm | 20/10/09

      SD:
      But what’s the point in knowing how many drinks you have exactly had if you don’t know how many drinks you specifically can have. Do you think everyone can do the old 2+1+1?
      I know I can drink a lot less than that.

    • Barry Nosworthy says:

      03:41pm | 20/10/09

      E, I don’t know if the stats exist or not, and in my view that is not really the point. What part of zero is hard to understand? No discretion, no judgement calls, no trying to claculate time/drinks/body weight/meals etc. Just zero. As it is for professionals.

      As for country pubs - someone will create a solution to this problem - car pooling or whatever. Zero. No exemptions.

      What we are talking about here is driving while in some way, and to some degree, impaired - and it should be unacceptable, certainly amongst amateurs, as it is with professionals.

      Tim - as to your question re mobile phone use, eating or talking - currently NONE of those are illegal - it is only illegal to use a mobile phone without hands free/bluetooth - so, anyone guilty of using a phone is claiming an exemption. Claim denied.  And, if talking, eating or any other activity leads to driving without due care - again, already an offence! First offence - 180 days loss of licence and so on…....

      The bit that is missing is both the political and community will to demand that the laws that exist are applied. That also means money, but quite likely less new money than one might think. For example, in Queensland, why not just apply the $11 m + used to sponsor a non existent car race?

    • Henry Johnson says:

      04:01pm | 20/10/09

      Zero tolerance does not work.  Neither does mandatory sentencing.  I wonder how many people here actually have a background in law enforcement let alone the last 21 years.  In terms of research there is an elevated crash risk from 0 to .02%.  There is no increase in crash risk from .02% to .05% according to all the data.  Above .05% it increases again.  Certainly any policy that saves a life is a good one but there is no silver bullet for this.  If history tells us anything, the rate of drink drivers will fall and then increase again over time just as it has done when RBT was first introduced.  As I said before there are simply not to enforce such a law.

    • Harry Brookes says:

      04:04pm | 20/10/09

      IF, and its a big one,  it is shown that bac;s below .05 have any detrimental effect on driving ability, I would support the idea of a scaled monetary penalty from 0.01 to the 0.05 limit. The object being to create a zone where responsible  
      drivers can avoid being publicly demonised and ( in my mind ) unfairly treated by way of large fines and possible loss of license, for lesser infractions of a new law which would make what currently is a legal activity, illegal

    • Saneman says:

      04:21pm | 20/10/09

      I live on the Northern beaches and a friend of mine has lived here for 20 years and has never been breath tested in the 20 years she has lived here. My friends and I joke that if you’re going out and you see a police car going in the opposite direction you won’t see another one all night.

    • Trav says:

      04:44pm | 20/10/09

      It should be zero whilst driving and also whilst in a public place especially railway stations, this also applies to illicit drugs, how many times have we all seen a person obviously high on illegal drugs being totally ignored by the police.

    • Michael says:

      06:11pm | 20/10/09

      Barry Nosworthy at 4.41 pm just wants to have a zero BAC no matter what the research shows even if it would have a negative impact ie make the situation worse. Unfortunately this is typical of our driving laws and indeed many other laws affecting our normal behaviour. Only good solid research which can pass a hostile assessment will provide good regulation which has a net benefit. Hysterical prohibition simply makes things worse. Look at the figures; less than 2.5% of fatal collisions involve a driver with a BAC between .02 and .05. There are no claims for crash causation so the regulation would have minimal effect at a great cost to the community. Its a waste of time and money which could be put to better use such as improving our standard of driver training and testing which is the first worlds worst. That would have an effect on every body and tackle the 70+% of fatals which do NOT involve speeding or drinking.

    • Jennifer says:

      06:36pm | 20/10/09

      I agree with Margarita, make it 0.0.  Driving requires 100% attention at all times.  We have far too many alcohol related deaths.  Pilots, bus drivers etc must be 0.0 and for a very good reason, they hold people’s lives in their hand.

      And everyone else behind the wheel carries the same responsability for other road users and loved ones.  Aussies drink too much!  Let’s face it and do something concrete to reduce the road slaughter and the devastation it causes to families now.

    • Hamish says:

      06:46pm | 20/10/09

      Barry, Zero BAC is too strict, unnecessary and impractical.  Of course pilots, truckies and other professional drivers must have zero BAC, but so should doctors, lawyers and teachers.  In fact, anyone being paid to do a job should be zero BAC.  I want my workers to be at their best, but I am not suggesting a drink at lunch time should become illegal -it’s just not ideal.

      Yes, being zero BAC may improve a person’s ability to drive, but so would no music, no phone, no passengers and a blanket speed limit of 20km/h.  The key is to get the tolerance level right, and zero is overkill.

      If you are serious about zero tolerance, it needs to apply across the board, on all factors that impair driving ability.  And then to reduce fatalities further, it should be illegal to drive when it is dark or raining, as both conditions impair a person’s ability to drive.  Actually, to really get serious about the road toll, we should make cars illegal, only bicycles and golf carts should be allowed on the roads.

      There’s a lot of things we SHOULD do, like eat all our veggies, brush our teeth twice a day and not stay up too late.  But making something illegal should only apply to something significant.  Based on all the research and evidence, and considering all the other variables that contribute to accidents, driving with a BAC of up to 0.05 just doesn’t qualify.

      Michael 7:11 -  good post.

    • G says:

      09:03pm | 20/10/09

      This whole discussion is ridiculous without some solid research to back it up.  did anyone mention the percentage of fatalities with BAC above .05?  I can’t see it so I’ll pick a random number, say 10%.  With the aforementioned 2.5% for those between 0.02 and 0.05, that leaves 87.5% of fatalities with 0 to 0.02 BAC. 
      Does that suggest that it’s safer to have above .02 than below it since the percentage of fatalities is much lower?  Of course not.  All of those 87.5% had some other factor causing the fatality. 
      So of those 0.02 to 0.05 fatalities maybe 90% of those were also caused by some other factor and the BAC may have completely been irrelevant.  Is there any data to suggest that the 0.05 BAC *caused* *any* fatal accidents?
      like others have been saying, we already have laws, just start enforcing them properly.  no point making new laws just because people aren’t obeying the existing ones. 
      there’s one thing that will make everyone’s driving safer.  PAY ATTENTION a bit more.

    • Tony says:

      09:07pm | 20/10/09

      This is the same clown who encouraged us all to vote Labor Federally at the last election!  You want to believe him now??? Perhaps he was p*ssed that time too!

    • John says:

      12:34am | 21/10/09

      I also live in the country where its pretty hard to get around without a car. I am not totally against having a couple quite ones after work. I normally drink a mid-strength beer at home, but if i am at the pub I will drink something like Hahn lite where it is only 2.7%. I’ll just have two of those, and still feel confident getting behind the wheel.
      But there are other ways to check yourself and stay under the limit. Tandy or Dick Smiths sell those personal breathalizers for around $150. I know some pubs in Perth have them inside. You just put some coins in and blow into it with a straw. But you don’t know how accurate those ones are, so spending $150 I think would be a good investment. You can get really good ones that can be calibrated and checked.
      And lets face it drinking in the pubs these days gets pretty expensive, so just having a couple light beers and then going home to drink is much cheaper anyway.
      But like anything, it only takes a couple of dim wits to stuff up the whole system.
      My son is 15, and is approaching the age of ‘L’ plates. He has seen all the TV commercials about drink driving, and already he has the right attitude. Is this the answer? Drumming it into the ‘Y’ generation with hard hitting commercials? I mean those types of commercials are good. In fact that’s how I quite smoking. I still remember one of the commercials where they simulated a drag of smoke going into the throat, and then through all the tubes in the body and potentially drawing out all the cancer cells that are lying dorment in our bodies.
      This whole article shows me that there are still some responsible people out there. So i dont think the BAC should be reduced to zero. I mean its drink driving now, what’s it going to be next year, or the year after that? Society will always find something to nail.

    • ADRIAN says:

      05:11am | 21/10/09

      hmmm interesting points ive done my licence for 5 years on a few offences i was a dick head i work in the entertainment industry and alchaol is just the norm i get angry now days that so many people still dont think of the consiquences of drink driving not that you might kill yourself or someone else but that youre gonna stuff your ability to support your family or even yourself . 0.00 wont fix the problem its like taking guns from respectable people (armed robberies & stabbings up in numbers)look at bigger underlying problems with people why is it now thats this is such a big problem 30 years ago we didnt have these problems. Repair society then we would care enough about each other to not break rules now days we are more concerned about getting caught speeding by an illegally parked speed camera than we are of the road in front of us, please dont take this wrong i do not condone drink driving there are too many confusing laws in place. Laws designed to confuse generally law abiding citezens too many laws to trick us into breaking them. Many new drivers on a road system not designed to handle the amount of traffic they carry.
      I consider my self a professional driver and my worst offence was 0.07 i just got a few of them in close proximity and nearly ended up in jail for it i didnt kill any one didnt even come close as a matter of fact the bingles i had i was sober i didnt even drink lol i know those accidents were a lack of concentration! Am i the only one i dont think so, i think make people responsible for their mistakes dont fine them you kill a person then its murder decide to drive a vehicle and end a life well then be judged by the law its all set out what do we pay taxes for oh and working around nightclubs and pubs how about the powers that be controlling all the other substances that seem to be for sale all the bad drugs that are really doing people harm or are they making too much money from that . Anyway i guess i just want all to realise i have lost a lot from my actions ive lost my buisness nearly my relationship, my family i now make every one around me realise the true consiquences of drink driving it’s just not worth it. My 14 year old daughter will have her licence before i get mine back HOW EMBARASSING!!!!!

    • Bobby says:

      07:37am | 21/10/09

      We are not Japan, Europe, the US or anywhere else! I can have a beer and drive. Thank you very much

    • Lexi says:

      08:19am | 21/10/09

      @Tim - read the last line of my original post - David, do you have the figures to hand on the difference in reaction time for 0.05 BAC compared to zero?

      I think the biggest impact of changing the BAC limit downwards would be cultural - instead of thinking we can judge how many drinks is safe for being under the limit, I would hope that our drink v driving culture would change to “If I’m driving, I’m not drinking; if I’m drinking, I’m not driving”.

      It’s simple, the two activities just don’t mix safely.  Not because some people can’t drive safely at 0.05.  Because some people don’t get that you have to be absolutely sure you are under 0.05.

    • David Martin says:

      10:48am | 21/10/09

      It’s simple, make the limit 0.00. No margin for error, you either have booze in your system or you don’t. If truck drivers have to be 0.00 (and this includes fairly small trucks, not just B-doubles) why does the sedan driver cop a break. Get hit by a Mack or a Holden, and dead is still dead.

    • Badger says:

      02:14pm | 21/10/09

      Badger,
                An old saying we had many years ago, was

        IF YOU DRINK DRIVE

      ACCIDENTS CAUSE PEOPLE.

    • Wombat says:

      03:09pm | 21/10/09

      The last time I drove over the limit was after the 1994 Raiders grand final win (Go Canberra).  There is something about sport and excess alchohol.  Anyway, since then, I’ve changed my drinking habits.  A glass of wine is OK at the BBQ, but start with soft drink when I arrive, only one or two or wine or beer with a meal, and none after 2pm if I’m leaving at 4pm.  No drinks after work - too easy to keep going.  Funny, I still get called up on that one.  (Are you sure?  Just one won’t harm you.)
      Anyway, what I’m saying is that it takes a change of lifestyle and a lot of standing up to some of your so called mates to limit the social lubricant.  But could I go to zero alchohol (which is what 0.02 means)?  No more occasional glasses.  I’m probably usually totally dry by the time I get in my car, but even after 15 years of care, it would be tough to say none at all.

    • danj says:

      06:30am | 22/10/09

      I live in rural Victoria and regularly have a stubby or two after cricket training, or at a mates place after work or two or three pots after in the pub on Friday night, and I enjoy it and don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Where I live we have no access to taxis or public transport and my wife sure as hell is going to chase me around picking me up a couple of times a week just because I’ve had a couple of stubbies. At the risk of sounding complacent, you hardly ever even meet another car when driving around out here and definitely never see a pedestrian, so you are not a danger to anyone else, not that you would be anyway after two stubbies. There’s no excuse for drink driving in town, but .02 or .00 would ruin our lifestyle, and our pub and ensure that I just stayed at home and drank alone which couldn’t be real healthy.

    • jj says:

      07:08pm | 29/10/09

      Correction: drunk-driving

      not drink-driving

    • Tracey61 says:

      10:06am | 30/10/09

      I have moved to Japan where there is a zero tolerance to Alcohol while driving. The penalties for killing someone here, whilst drunk are heavy. Sometimes up to 20 years in prison. The mindset here because of this is amazing. Everywhere you go people understand that you are not drinking because you have to drive. They respect you for it. Australia needs to change its attitude to drink driving. Increase penalties and take away licenses, not just for 6 months, but for six years.

    • Steve says:

      10:27am | 29/12/09

      People in this society are afraid of living. You want gates around everything, rules for everything so theres someone to blame when things go wrong… Want to childproof the whole world for adults? why dont you just stay inside your house and never leave!

      stop looking for people to blame and dont be afraid of life. BAC should be .05 some countries its .08 and i dont think theres a problem with that at all.

    • cats says:

      04:30pm | 29/12/09

      24 hour public transport will make a huge difference in the amount of people drink driving. It would also solve a lot of the fighting over cabs and other things that people do when they are drunk. I drink drive occasionally, but i wouldn’t do it at all if the public transport system is better. If the government really cared about this issue, and the issue of people fighting in the streets, then they would make 24 hour public transport

 

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