It is 222 years since the French Revolution established the principle of the separation of church and state. It is three months since Cyclone Yasi and the Queensland floods ripped $9 billion from our national economy.

Hey, preacher, leave those kids alone..

In Australia we have an ostensibly secular and progressive government, which also claims to be fiscally prudent. It’s just blown $220 million on a program which is offensive to the principle of state independence from religious influence.

The reason: having avowed her atheism, Julia Gillard is now desperate to appease the Christian lobby. As such, one of the biggest new spending measures in what was unconvincingly billed as a tough-minded post-disaster budget will see chaplains running about in 3500 public schools, filling kids’ heads with what many people regard as fantastic nonsense.

The measure is outlined on page 33 of Tuesday’s Budget Overview document under the headline “Making Every School a Great School.” Speaking from personal experience, the headline jars with the reality of what these school chaplains provide.

My daughter finished up last year at a fantastic K2 (kindergarten to grade two) public school in Sydney, where she and other students were taught what was called scripture once a week. Being a fairly ambivalent type of atheist, and one who is uncomfortable with the derisive atheism of writers such as Richard Dawkins, I didn’t think scripture classes would necessarily be a bad thing, provided they served as a generalised kind of religious education which also provided some familiarity with the Bible.

My presumption was wrong. Most of what was taught in these classes was absurd, framed around the conceited dogma that it is impossible to become a good person unless you believe in God, and choose the right God to believe in. None of this was the fault of the school, which like so many others has no involvement with the “services” external chaplains provide. 

Their evangelical mindset was best evidenced by the exercise books the kids were given, which on one page asked students to put a tick (for good) or a cross (for bad) next to drawings of children who behaved in certain ways.

There was a girl who always packed her toys away. Tick. There was a boy who used bad words. Cross. There was a boy who prayed every day. Tick, apparently, because as we all know, any kid who doesn’t pray to God daily is destined to burn in eternal hellfire, and it’s important that children know this from the age of seven.

It is probably more important that from the age of seven every student reads well and has a good grasp of numbers. At a time when many students can do neither, the $222 million would be better spent on specialised teacher positions, added features for the MySchool website, more Smart Boards, books, sports equipment – or not spent on anything at all.

What is also important is that the Federal Government respects the rights of parents who have selected a secular education for their children. Religion should be a private choice. The chaplaincy program places it in a public setting. It means that parents who are troubled by the idea of some unknown vicar waffling on to their kids about the almighty and the afterlife must decide whether they want their children to take part or not. They have to choose between the rigmarole of explaining to their kids why they’re being excluded from a class most other students are attending – or just shrugging their shoulders and letting their kids go anyway, even if they think it’s a meaningless waste of time.

Another flaw with the system is that the chaplains are laughably instructed to avoid sermonising but to talk in general terms about concepts such as kindness and charity and issues such as bereavement. This approach is in direct opposition to the training they have received. The entire basis of their work is theological. It’s like asking someone with dental training to work as a general practitioner.

One of the strongest critics of the chaplaincy program is former NSW Premier Bob Carr who has attacked the scheme on his excellent blog, Thoughtlines. I spoke to Carr yesterday who was disappointed and angry that the Gillard Government had chosen to extend the scheme.

“I think it is indefensible that all taxpayers are required to support a program that is gradually becoming church evangelism,” he said.

“There is enough feedback now to show that quite understandably chaplains cannot confine their activism. Evangelical work is their lifeblood and it’s naïve to expect them not to pursue it around young people. They can’t because of their training. They can’t approach these matters from any other perspective.

“As a result we have got breaches of what should be a very thick wall between church and state.”

Carr is dead right. Conservatives who deride state schools as being valueless, and regard the chaplaincy program as an attempt to introduce some values into the state system, are besmirching public schools and denying the rights of parents and children. State schools already teach values – kindness, tolerance, sharing, working for charity, helping the less fortunate. They should continue to do so in a manner devoid of religion.

It’s a private choice for parents who send their kids to those schools as to whether they want to bring their children up in a religious framework outside of school, or not expose them to religion at all. The Government shouldn’t be making that decision for us, especially at a time when it’s talking about fiscal restraint. As the French revolutionaries would say this is one program which should be put to the guillotine.

494 comments

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    • michael j says:

      05:50am | 13/05/11

      I think you’re right Penbo,perhaps a history lesson Q & A starting with this
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd4iJkNCaZ8&NR=1
        could probably open Parliament with it to,i think what they are using now is offending everyone ?

    • Edward James says:

      10:57am | 13/05/11

      I would be happy to put some money toward a collection for importing a French guillotine. Which may be parked outside our NSW Parliament from time to time as a freedom of expression! Edward James

    • Jimmy says:

      12:06pm | 13/05/11

      I’m against this type of teaching when it comes to culture/religion too.

      They shouldn’t stay ignorant to it - a lot of culture and human behaviour is linked to religion or lack thereof - but children can know about what different religions/atheists believe, in a way that leaves the choices to them.

      But David P, unless I’m mistaken (and I may be) any parent can opt out of these lessons. Pretty simple solution if that’s the case.

    • Empire says:

      01:06pm | 13/05/11

      Well at my kids state primary school the chaplains have all been lovely people, who do not talk about god to the children,and certainly don’t teach religious class.
      The religious teachers on the other hand, are sometimes problematic.  when my children come home and relay any stupidity that’s been talked about. I simply tell them never to believe anything they are told, they can listen, think about, ask questions, never believe.
      And I say the same thing when my high school children come home telling me, that all the kids and teachers said gods not real.
      Countless times I have told my three children that when they become an adult they will decide if they believe god exists or not.
      When they ask me if i believe in God I say yes, and when they ask why I tell them I feel it inside my heart, but that they will have to do their own research and make up their own mind.
      So I say get rid of religious teachers they are the problem not the chaplains. Who are usually young wanna be missionary’s that play games at lunch time, and have lolly jar counting competitions.

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      01:49pm | 13/05/11

      It seems Punch devotes considerable time to devising topics which ultimately result in the column being a forum for unwarranted attacks on religion.
      There are a lot of kids who want to be taught this subject and conversly there are a lot of parents who want and expect their kids to know the subject .

      It appears that a few have taken it upon themselves to push for the abolition of religious instruction in schools . What is it with you people , are you afraid of religion , God , Jesus , etc ?
      The subject of religion is a must for early school attenders . Later as the child’s mind matures , he or she can chose their own direction on religion.
      Atheists or any other individuals opposed to religions have no right whatsoever in interfereing in a childs education on religion.
      It’s more than time to backoff !

    • Rick says:

      02:20pm | 13/05/11

      The Galah from who gives a flying f@#k…......Thats what church and Sunday school are for and you attend or send your kids if you wish to. We don’t need to waste taxes on this in public schools.

    • Pyrrhic Vic says:

      02:25pm | 13/05/11

      Atheists make me laugh - you zealots leave most Christians/Muslims/Buddhists/Hindu’s for dead in your passion for proselytizing.

    • Stone age liberal says:

      02:27pm | 13/05/11

      Galah, your horse blinkers are on, which god, ?, which prophet?,which persons religion. Religious education should be (if anything) about the wide range of religions and the evolution of them. Islamic, Catholicism, Mormanism are all offshoots of Christianity, which is an offshoot of the Hebrew religion, the origins of which can be traced back to early Mesopotanian religions. This is the sort of information that should be taught, not that you need to pray to a certain god every night to get into heaven. Some of the basic ethics of some religions are appropriate, however the basic tenet of so many “Mine is the only right one” is not an attitude we should be fostering in our youth. As a final point Galah (and you seem to be a bit of one) remember Jesus, who in all likelyhood actually existed as a real person, was not the white man we portray and worship today. He was born, bred and raised in the middle east and for all extents and purposes would have been of Arab appearances.

    • Schroe says:

      03:37pm | 13/05/11

      So Galah, you would have us allow our children to be brainwashed at a young age and then attempt to undo that damage later in life?  Much better to allow them a chance to develop without being exposed to such oppresive, mentally damaging doctrines and give them the chance to decide for themselves when they are fully capable of seperating fact from fiction.

      If you insist that your children gain a religious eduction then you must be the one responsible for that.  Teach your children your values and beliefs, afterall that is a major part of being a parent.  Anyone who leaves the spiritual education of their children up to others is delinquent in their responsibilities.

    • Don Draper says:

      06:12pm | 13/05/11

      Religion is… poison.

    • Dean says:

      06:44pm | 13/05/11

      @ Jimmy
      Opting out might seem simple but why should I have to at a secular school?  Also why should I have to pay for other peoples delusions, especially when it is not needed.  I have no issue with these type of services provided they are provided by properly trained professionals, you know like a psycologist, cousellors, etc, etc.

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      06:58pm | 13/05/11

      The attacks following my original comment are predictable and simply strenthen my case. One poster has to use obscenities to give his weak comment a leg to stand on. Another resorts to labeling me as a zealot ,
      and yet another resorts to rascism and ridicule .

      What a wonderful lot of parents to uneducated minds , you all must make.

    • Keep religion out of shcools says:

      07:29pm | 13/05/11

      There is a difference between religious education classes at school and a school chaplain. The chaplains don’t teach the RE classes, that’s done by volunteers who aren’t even teachers, chaplains are supposedly to provide counseling services to students. You can opt out of RE classes. When my oldest was in prep we opted in, mistakenly thinking she may be the only one not going. The first Easter after that she informed us that “jesus died on a hot cross bun”, and her best friend pipped up with “no, he died eating a hot cross bun”. Once we stopped laughing we thought quite seriously - what a waste of time RE was. She is now in grade 4 and has not and will not attend another RE class, and I will do everything I can to make sure 1) our school doesn’t get a chaplain and 2) if it does they had better stay away from my children with their fairy tales. if you want someone to provide counseling services to children… get a properly trained counselor! If I want my children to learn about religion I will take them to a church/temple/mosque whatever.

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      08:14pm | 13/05/11

      K. R .O.O.S. -  Surely you are astute enough a mother to realise that kids will come out with statements such as your oldest came out with.
      They are kids afterall , and will confuse what they are being taught about Christ’s crucifixion and the meaning of the cross as a symbol on buns at Easter.  Your child’s statement is just one part of the wonderful antics we all witness with kids .
      The ” fairy tales ” aspect came from your child’s mind , which is quite normal , not via the teachings in R.E.
      ” If i want my children to learn about religion…........”  What a selfish Mother you are. !  Your child is denied the choice she may wish to make , later in life , because ” of what you want. ”

      Certainly , it is your choice to take your child to a church or mosque or chapel , but it is NOT your choice to remove the R.E. option from every child’s education.
      In any case , you are highly unlikely to ever give any support to your child’s R.E. because it is not what YOU want.

    • Elmer Gantry says:

      09:35pm | 13/05/11

      Follow me, folks.  I’ll see you right!

    • Flin says:

      05:44am | 14/05/11

      Bob is mad at God. He blames him for making him an atheist.

    • Thomas says:

      08:30am | 14/05/11

      Oh Galah, give it a rest.
      The point of the story is our taxes should not go to fund religion in schools. It seems most people will agree with this.

      Your ‘Choice’ argument is silly. The parents have the choice to fill that time with learning and education that will help them survive in the real world. I know, you think religion will help them, but for a lot of us, god or jesus does not rate a milli seconds thought throughout the day.

      And by the way, damn straight parents have the right to deny their kids the choice of religion. They have the right to deny their kids access to drugs, to alcohol, to staying out after school, to TV on weeknights to anything they feel is right for THEIR kids.

    • LB Mackay says:

      10:08am | 14/05/11

      Our daughter in a state school, Grade One was so traumatised by the ‘religious instruction’ teacher that she went hysterical the following week and I had to be called to the school.  My daughter took the ‘concept’ of ‘you die and you go o heaven’ literally and thought that one week she would go to ‘religious ed’ and die and go to heaven and never see her family again.  May sound silly but it wasn’t at the time and I lay most of the blame on the amateur instructor and the content presented.  I went to the chool each week after that so I could look after her instead of going to the class.  She eventually returned in grade four as she was pressued by the teacher who didn’t want to look after kids during her ‘free’ period.  Changed schools to a private catholic education and we have had no issues at all.  Far more professional.

    • Lou of Brisbane says:

      10:21am | 14/05/11

      To the Galah from Harvey Bay - I agree completely with you! I have found it very interesting that most Bible knockers I know have quickly turned to God when their health failed and they knew that they were going to die or when they couldn’t cope with life. Seen many change their minds over the past 30 years. Bless them all anyway mate!

    • Thomas says:

      11:12am | 14/05/11

      Yes Lou, and it’s even more interesting that people need to be near death, or hit rock bottom to contemplate god. At that stage most people would probably drink elephant urine if they thought it would make their lives easier.

      But again, you’re missing the point. Noone here cares if you worship god - do as you like! Just don’t think it’s something we want to pay for with our taxes. Does this hit home?

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      01:22pm | 14/05/11

      Thomas :  Religious education is hardly in the same league as drugs , alcohol and staying out late . Most religions teach the evils of alcohol and drugs and misbehaviour - in short - what is right and what is wrong.

      Your indignation at my suggestion that children are denied choice at maturity through lack of education on the subject of religion is quite justified .

      A time will come when your child becomes an adult , decides to marry , the new partner whom she loves dearly is a man who regularly attends church . They decide to marry in his or her church which requires baptism and a commitment to the education of any future children in the ways of the church.

      These scenarios happen daily and you can imagine the heartbreak and distress for those who were denied their right to education because the parents refused their child that knowledge .  What a false duty of care it is for a parent to claim ” it was what i wanted ” not what my child needs.

    • Daniel says:

      02:49pm | 14/05/11

      Speaking as a Christian parent, my biggest concern is the transparency of the organisations supplying these services such as Access Ministries. Having them making public statements in one context, then saying the exact opposite or being disproven by products their organisation markets on their website in a different context, then resorting to politicians’ defences once criticised, are not the hallmarks of an organisation which is informed by the words of Jesus. I would much rather teach my own kid religion and have the state school teach my kid literacy, numeracy and such in school time.

    • Jimmy says:

      06:10pm | 14/05/11

      Daniel makes an interesting point, but I do believe in objective ‘Cultural Studies’ classes that make children aware of various cultural perspectives, since it drives the way a lot of people act. This perhaps, as opposed to single-religion RE within state schools.

      With regards to counselling, I’m not against a priest/pastor/imam having access to campus, with three provisos:

      1) Their mission should be made clear to all - it should be to counsel children on behaviour/emotional issues provided that they approach them (not the other way around and the have parent permission to visit any counsellor they like (though I guess children of age 15+ should be allowed to choose for themselves).
      2) There is a strict code governing what they can/cannot do (approach those who have not approached them first, etc…).
      3) They should fund themselves. I don’t understand where the govt money is going and I think parents of a certain faith would be happy to cover it.

      Even so, it’s worth noting that we actually don’t have a French model of govt and we don’t have anything in our constitution about separation of Church and state (I’m pretty sure). Neither does the USA & many other successful countries. There’s no need to allude to rules that don’t exist or pretend they’ve saved humanity.

      With ‘opt-out’ or ‘opt-in’, you can debate which is better - I’ve leant towards opt-in - but I earlier was making the point to illustrate that it was at least worth making people aware of the current opt-out option.

      A debate/article is a bit of a worthless moan session if you only hold up a straw man argument and don’t even mention basic facts.

    • Daniel says:

      08:05pm | 14/05/11

      Jimmy - S 116 of the Australian Constitution reads: “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.” This is clearly an imposition of religious observance, and a religious test is being applied to those appointed to the chaplain roles. So it’s probably anti-constitutional.

    • Jason says:

      08:17pm | 14/05/11

      Daniel, I would be interested to know what you call being a Christian is as you claim to be?

    • Jimmy says:

      03:46am | 15/05/11

      Thanks for the info Daniel - it would seem I’ve misinterpreted something I read a while previously. Should get in the habit of googling that before I post! Anyway, not being a lawyer, I’m interested in the definition of ‘Public Trust’, because that seems pivotal if the counsellors aren’t directly employed by the gov - which I’m pretty sure is the case, having worked in a school.

      Regardless, I agree that school counsellors employed by the state should certainly not be required to be of any faith and I’m highly interested in where the $220 million is going. I think if that funding was withdrawn, legit pastors/priests/imams would fund their own way.

      If it helps some kids deal with daily behavioural/emotional challenges in a positive way, then I’m for allowing it (with the provisos I mentioned earlier). I’m pretty sure I’m happy to stand behind everything else I said previously - lack of legal knowledge notwithstanding.

    • Jimmy says:

      05:30am | 15/05/11

      Jason, maybe I’m not the expert, but pretty sure Christianity has nothing to do with anything Daniel mentioned - including concerns with Access Ministries or the wish to instil morals/beliefs at home.

      In most situations it’s a bit off base for you to imply someone is not a proper believer in something and should justify themselves to you - especially after such innocuous remarks.

    • The Civet says:

      05:20pm | 15/05/11

      Only religion could have produced such a hate-filled face as Billy Graham.

    • Pyrrhic Vic says:

      01:43pm | 18/05/11

      Haha, love that!

      LB Mackay says: ” Changed schools to a private catholic education and we have had no issues at all.”

      Remember this peoples next time you put Catholic and Christian in the same lil’ boat.

    • Justin says:

      05:57am | 13/05/11

      Spot on Penbo. The rabid religious types however are numerous and as long as they vote, we will see politicians pander to them, and being completely devoid of logic and an ability to think rationally, pandering to their love for their diety is a sure fire way to win those votes

    • BobM says:

      10:56am | 13/05/11

      Oh Justin, get over yourself.  Name ONE civilization any time in history, anywhere on the planet, that didn’t/doesn’t have a diety. It’s part of the human psyche to believe in SOMETHING. Are you saying that you’re the FIRST human to think logically and rationally? Gee, you must be awesome.

    • Justin says:

      11:39am | 13/05/11

      Newsflash champ, I’m not the only person who doesn’t belive the fairy tales presented as fact. There’s plenty around that don’t believe the nonsense. For as long as there has been dietys and religions around them, there have been rational thinkers who challenge their claims and endeavour to find out the real reasons behind things. Good try though, paint me as the fringe dwelling extremist out here on my own, the lone heathen disbeliever.

      The only thing that religion being around since the dawn of man in some form or another proves is that some people would rather make shit up and believe it than to admit that we just don’t know at this point in time.

    • Jason says:

      11:59am | 13/05/11

      Not the first bigot either.

      For the record, I’m against forcing kids to study any kind of religion in this manner. But then again, I’d keep other form of intolerant trolls away from them too.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      12:47pm | 13/05/11

      BobM I think it is you who should get over yourself.
      Buddhists do not believe in a super-natural, other-worldly, omnipotent,omniscient being! They offer Self-responsibility, Self-reliance.They do not live in fear of some awful retribution if they do not do as the priests tell them.How else have western religions survived if not simply because they threaten their poor adherents with hell fire & damnation. Pray, Pay & Obey that’s all those who believe in some deity have to do to get into heaven,paradise, call it what you will. I well remember “Confession” many years ago, go in the box, confess to numerous sins etc. & the priest absolves you from those sins & off you go & do exactly the same next week!
      What we need in life is to be able to stand on our own feet,take responsibility for our actions & stop using some mythical being as a crutch to blame every thing on!
      We did not give Gillard a mandate to waste our money on these school chaplains for she, just like her Carbon Tax, did not go to her 2010 Election with this a a policy.

    • Justin says:

      12:57pm | 13/05/11

      Now it’s inferred I’m intolerant? If you choose to believe it’s a personal choice. Don’t ram it down my throat and tell me I have to believe it too and we will get along just fine. I’m intolerant of intolerance. Religion is very clever at claiming bigotry and intolerance when they are called out on trying to force themselves on those who don’t want or need it in their lives.

      It’s NOT intolerant to expect that school time be about education and not about indoctrination. It’s not intolerant to express a view that religion is made up. It IS intolerant to burn down a church, to villify or discriminate based on religious belief, or to attempt to villify a person for expressing a lack of any such belief. Kind of like you just did.

      As long as religion continues to hold sway over legislation aimed at personal freedom, soak up public funds, and attempt any other interference in the life of the individual, I will continue to voice my distaste for it. When they stop bothering everyone else and believe in what they believe in without needing everyone else to do so as well, then I won’t have any reason to comment on it.

    • Edward James says:

      02:44pm | 13/05/11

      God,and Allah help me! I just looked up the word secular. How fucking interesting! So that is part of the reason so called private schools got going, parents wanted to educate their children but they were not happy to become part the predominant Roman Catholic faith at the time of Federation! I do not have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the idea that these private schools can still dip into the pool of taxes which are the property of the rest of us who subscribe to the so called “separation of powers ”  An obviously fanciful division identified in our constitution as the separation of powers between Church and State. Almost as much fiction as the the often politician pushed day dream of a separation between the courts and the parliament. Edward James 0243419140

    • theres no god says:

      05:32pm | 13/05/11

      i agree with justin completley STOP this religious education within our public school im an atheist and proud to be i’ve had most my school life in catholic schools andi wasnt the only person in the class to realise thast this religious belif is utter crap there was no god , or alah bud we have proof was a real man only seeking enlightenment the rest of you bible dribblingdouche bags need to keep ur belifs to urself no one else cares

    • John says:

      10:07pm | 13/05/11

      How else have western religions survived if not simply because they threaten their poor adherents with hell fire & damnation.

      Interesting line but don’t forget so do some eastern religions. It is interesting how many times the Christian religion (i am a Sikh so have no affiliation to Christianity) is bought up in this type of debate or even the West. I like how atheist always loves to have a go at Christians but fail to a). Point out the good things they do and b). Attack them as the only hard line religion in the world.

      Also notes good sir, Buddhist do believe in Buddha and all to follow his teachings.

      During my high school years we had a chaplin at our school who was more of a mentor and did not teach any religion.

    • acotrel says:

      07:24am | 14/05/11

      @BobM
      ‘Are you saying that you’re the FIRST human to think logically and rationally? Gee, you must be awesome.’

      Some of us actually do that!  It raises the question as to whether religous mania is a form of mental illness exhibited by a form of delusional thinking?

    • Empire says:

      08:31am | 14/05/11

      So Acotrel do you call your wife delusional to her face?

    • acotrel says:

      08:48am | 15/05/11

      @Empire My wife is like many catholics,  she’s had so much religion in her life, that she never thinks about it!  She’s effectively become immune to the disease. In fact she was angry with me a couple of years ago, when we were in Rome, and I insisted on visitting the Vatican.  I love the place, It represents the ultimate power trip to me!  Some things are so bad, that they’re good? If I was ever going to become religous I’d be a catholic.  It’s a REAL religion, not like one of those upstart proddie ones.

    • acotrel says:

      09:02am | 15/05/11

      @Empire Your question raises some interesting thoughts.  My wife is a catholic, and she’s actually a christian who ‘walks the talk’.  Religion is never an issue between us, and I know that her parents, devout catholics,both love me.  I’ve never discussed religion with anyone in her family, and why would I?  I have NO INTEREST in provoking anyone over their beliefs.  If there is a christening or a wedding, I attend church with them, and I stand and sit at the appropriate times.  What does that mean - am I a hypocrite?  I would never refuse to speak to a priest, but I’ve found that they sometimes seem uncomfortable speaking with me.  I don’t have a problem with the catholic church, my only criticism of it relates to the lack of democracy within it.  If they have a problem with me - it’s THEIR problem!
      I have a question for everyone on this forum. - Do you believe in the authority of Christ?  In short was he fundamentally authoritarian?

    • Reggie says:

      10:05am | 15/05/11

      BobM “Name ONE civilization any time in history, anywhere on the planet, that didn’t/doesn’t have a diety.”

      Bobbbbbb now you’re picking on poor old Justin? Surely we have all recognised by now that religion is only a left-over longing to return to the breast? That’s why it’s universal. R U THK or summin?

    • Empire says:

      07:20pm | 16/05/11

      Dearest Acotrel, I’m glad you don’t call your wife delusional (I was pretty sure you didn’t) and I’m sure she does walk the walk and talk the talk. I suppose the reason I made that statement was to see what your reaction would be. 
      I’m trying to understand why you seem to have respect for religious belief within your personal life, but then enjoy inferring that anyone on here who believes, might have mental illness in the form of delusional thinking.
      I’m not sure what your motive is with the whole Christ’s authority question, but I’ll bite anyway! 
      Yes I believe he had God given authority, no I don’t think he was an authoritarian, or had an authoritarian personality, I will concede maybe he had charismatic authority over people.
      In case your interested I don’t belong to, nor am I affiliated with any religious group, either up start prod-die or not
      Any way I hope I haven’t upset you, that was not my intention, and if I have I apologize in advance.
      wink

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      06:26am | 13/05/11

      Here we go again, its like groundhog day.
      Another god bothering debate.

    • lucy-loo says:

      07:58am | 13/05/11

      It’s not about about God Bothering per se, but whether a place exists for it in our schools.
      it should be a non secular place of learning.

      If parents choose to educate their children with religion tht’s their choice - in their own time.

      I personally would prefer my 5 year spent her time doing maths or language classes.

    • Bloggs says:

      08:50am | 13/05/11

      Lucy,

      School was traditionally a secular place of learning. Christian education has long been the place of Government through our school system.

      Many argue that this is not the right thing to do and many argue that it is right.  All are correct because of the totally legitimate points of view.

      I am not religious and hate the way some religions infuse stupidity into the heads of children.  But how can we expect children to grow into adults and make a personal choice if we do not educate them on all sides of the argument?

      The religious education I received at school, and that received by tens of thousands of others has not made us into Christian zealots, rather the opposite.  When we were old enough to make our own decisions we were able to do so with a reasonable grasp of both sides of the question, and many opted to be religious and many of us opted to not be religious.

      I would argue that the Government has a responsibility to ensure that children are appraised of religious issues as much as math and English so that they are properly armed with information to make good life decisions when the time comes to do so.

    • iansand says:

      08:53am | 13/05/11

      It is not god bothering.  It is bothering by god.

    • Dance says:

      09:23am | 13/05/11

      @Bloggs - I tend to agree with you.  I think we protestethish to much (new word).  Religion may not be for everyone but it is certainly for many of us and mostly it’s message is a good one, about love, tolerance and how to get along with each other in society.  However I am concerned that the focus is so much on christianity.  Why not have Rabbi’s and Imams as well?

    • Harquebus says:

      09:39am | 13/05/11

      No, it is about brainwashing kiddies.

    • Freeman says:

      09:56am | 13/05/11

      It’s a fair enough article I think, Sir Ronald.

      Public schools should be free from indoctrination of any faith or political persuation. there should be no compulsory scripture, no white history bashing. no teachers pushing their views on climate change or illegal boat arrivals. evangelism in schools has many forms.

      any introduced ethics classes should teach basic ethics with universal values only.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      10:07am | 13/05/11

      No problems with others beliefs just dont come knocking on my door trying to convert me or feeling sorry for me because I cant see the one true light.
      I dont come knocking on your door trying to convert you to a non believer.

    • fml says:

      10:10am | 13/05/11

      why christianity, if its religion they want to learn why not learn about all religions? because its all done with a motive thats why.

      Why not spend a week learning a new religion. Heaps of religions out there, heaps of new ideas to learn. heaps of points of view.

      why just one? i say learn them all or none at all.

    • Kevin says:

      10:10am | 13/05/11

      Hopefully this doesn’t degenerate into a theological debate.
      The issue is about parents’ freedom to choose a secular (ie religion free) education for their children.
      If the $200M was going to scientologists, hare krishnas or muslims there would be outrage.
      @Bloggs “the Government has a responsibility to ensure that children are appraised of religious issues”.  I don’t think primary school students need to be “appraised of religious issues” anymore than they need to be appraised of political issues.  They are too young to make these sorts of judgments which is precisely why the prospect of christian missionaries getting at impressionable young children is particularly disturbing.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      10:12am | 13/05/11

      We wouldn’t have these debates if the religious could keep their whacky ideas to themselves.  Unfortunately, they have convinced sucessive Goverments to spend millions of dollars pushing unqualifed chaplains into public school and leveraging Special Religious Education as a tool for overt evangelism.

      If parents want to brainwash and indoctrinate their children with ancient superstitious beliefs - then take them to a church, temple, or ashram.

    • Coldsnacks says:

      11:13am | 13/05/11

      Bloggs: You used the word secular in your argument. I don’t think you know what it really means (you meant sectarian, I’m sure wink )


      There is a place for religion in public schools - as a Religious Studies topic, developed or endorsed by the Board of Studies, taught by professional, qualified teachers. The course would look at a number of different religions and the intent would be to educate, not indoctrinate.

      Oh wait, that course already exists: http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus_hsc/pdf_doc/studies-religion-st6-syl-from2010.pdf

    • Phil says:

      11:21am | 13/05/11

      Andrew your argument goes with most things. I am happy that the school chaplain at my daughters school was able to sit down with the kids when a bus crash on the way to their school left their friends in hospital. As 6 year olds many didnt have experience in major injuries, luckily no one died, but some were off for a few weeks with their injuries. Kids dont understand everything, and my kids go to a Christian School, so the Chaplain fits in well.

      What about kids who went to school with Kiesha Abrahams, dont you think they could do with a chat with the chaplain, what about bullying. It happens and many a teenage person has committed suicide over bullying. Yes it might be difficult to talk to a chaplain about yoru sexuality, that is conceded, but unfair to say they do nothing but sign them up and get the credit cards of the kids.

      With your argument it goes with most other things about brainwashing us as you call it, take climate change, if everyone that was so concerned about the planet just put up their own cash for solar, wind power and cycled eveywhere had cold showers etc whilst the rest of us get on with our lives then so be it. Not much difference really.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      11:37am | 13/05/11

      Phil,

      I am saddened to hear the news of a bus crash injuring children, however religious people do not posess magical powers which allow them to comfort kids.  The NSCP is heavily slanted toward hiring the reigion of choice for an individual school at the expense of all other religons, denominations, and (more importantly) those without any self professed religious affiliation at all.

      Furthermore, the NSCP instructs these religious people not to be religious.  As only 2.5% of them are professionally qualified one has to ask what they actually do.  They cannot teach, counsel, or preach - so are limited to organisaing BBQs and referring troubled children to professionals.  Why can’t an agnostic, humanist, or atheist perform these tasks?

      For more information visit http://bit.ly/stopnscp

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:57am | 13/05/11

      And another comment from a Kiwi living on the Gold Coast who can’t even work why we call our most staunch Methodist cricketer “The Don”

      One who doesn’t mind sprouting his fundamentalism of belief in disbelief in these pages but berates others for doing the same because they do not agree with him.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      12:38pm | 13/05/11

      ZSRenn….Ive missed your wack job loony tune comments and beliefs, welcome back.
      It’ll be good to hear your self confessed morally superior veiws shared with us unclean non believers.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      12:44pm | 13/05/11

      ZRSenn…...it is truly scary when someone(yourself) takes comments which are an opinion only, so personally that they will go to the lengths you have to research and try to identify a commenter on this site.
      This truly confirms you are on the lunatic fringe.

    • Kika says:

      01:17pm | 13/05/11

      Tell me about it. BORING. Everyday this week there’s been an article about it. Must be the sure fire way to get something published. Punch editors can you please publish an article of mine? I promise to write about religion!

    • Chris L says:

      01:52pm | 13/05/11

      “fundamentalism of belief in disbelief”

      So, ZSRenn, if a person does not collect stamps do you describe them as collecting spaces? Is the idea of not believing at least one unsubstantiated supernatural claim so alien to you that your mind just assumes it is still a belief of some sort?

    • Don Draper says:

      09:39pm | 13/05/11

      The damage this stuff does to immature, malleable minds is almost irreversible.  If you bring up a kid telling it’s from from Mars, the kid will believe you.  If people want to follow a religious track, fair enough, but they should be old enough to form opinions for themselves, minus the indoctrination.  That comes after the angst of the teen years have past, when a lot of peddlers of religion tend to move in for the kill.  And this is definitely not the stuff that should be allowed in schools inspiring fertile young minds to follow paths that simply don’t exist.  It should be left up to the mature, adult mind to decide.  And then if you have decided you want to take this nonsense seriously then fair enough.  Keep it away from children.  They should be enjoying their childhoods, not worried about being cosmically penalized for for wanting to experience the normal progressions of the youth.

    • Andrew says:

      12:29pm | 15/05/11

      Bloggs: I believe education should be about the basics, about things that we are sure (or relatively certain) of, and most importantly about teaching children to think for themselves.  And this means teaching them to evaluate things based on evidence and likelihood.  Saying “we have to show them all sides to the argument and let them make up their own mind” is like saying “let’s teach them why the KKK thinks black people are inferior” so they can make up their own minds about whether to be a racist redneck or not.  I’m not saying religion is the same as racism, but presenting “sides of an argument” that have no evidence to back them up and are almost certainly untrue is not educational.  And sadly, children don’t have the powers of reasoning that adults have, so are much more likely to believe things they are told, regardless of how crazy they would seem to a rational person.

      In my opinion, having religious “chaplains” in schools is the same as inviting the Labor party (or Liberal party, take your pick) to provide fair and unbiased “political education” classes to 7 year olds.  Sure, a few of them might be able to do a good job and do it fairly, but most are going to, even subconsciously, start trying to sway the kids to their ‘side’.  In fact, I’d say the vast majority would do so deliberately and unashamedly, because they think they are “right”.  It’s human nature.  I’m pretty certain most right-thinking people would agree that political classes espousing the views of the major parties have no place in our education system for young children, yet political skills are arguably much more important than any religious knowledge.  So why are religions allowed any access to young children in school?  Why are religious bodies allowed to run schools at all?  I’m sure there would be a very large outcry should the Liberal or Labor parties set up their own schools because of the obvious bias these schools would impart on children.  Nobody would want public funds going towards such schools, and I argue that religious schools should be similarly removed from the public purse while they pursue an agenda that has no place being forced onto children.  The fact that what they are teaching is almost certainly completely untrue is hardly even relevant..

    • The Civet says:

      05:17pm | 15/05/11

      Why can’t religionists keep their faith to themselves? You’ve all got your loopy fruits and dippy doos and pixelated fairies at the bottom of your gardens and we atheists have got logic and reason.

    • Waynevan says:

      06:38am | 13/05/11

      Penbo, you’re right in saying that infants school scripture does out of necessity give a simplistic view of Christianity (good-evil, right-wrong etc) concepts like grace, redemption and justification can come later.
      Justin, This is not the USA where Christians (aka rabid religious types) make up a significant part of the electorate and hence politicians will always pander to them.
      As one of those myself I do find Ms Gillards position surprising but suggests if it’s no more than a hollow vote grab it may not produce results.

    • Reggie says:

      08:35am | 13/05/11

      Just ONE important correction Waynevan. “This is not the USA where Christians (aka rabid religious types) make up a significant part of the electorate and hence politicians will always pander to them.”

      In the US they make up a significant part of the VOTING electorate. In Australia compulsory voting ensures that such a cornering of the political process is more difficult. Your defense of a simplistic brain bending of infants leaves a bad taste, but shortage of time and inclination prevents my taking it further.

    • Danielle says:

      06:56am | 13/05/11

      This bullchit comes into public schools and my kids will not go to school again, home schooling is arriving in my home,stuff the PM and them sick religious freaks.
      No replies from you other religious freaks, not interested in your comments unless its other than that invisible man,female,it,thing.

    • Mr Chips says:

      08:07am | 13/05/11

      I trarst danielllee that u wil get sumwun else to work on their engish an gramur an speelling of corse.

    • lv says:

      08:47am | 13/05/11

      Wow. I’m pro home schooling but there are some people who shouldn’t be doing it. Poor grammar, poor manners, antagonism towards others and a refusal to listen to viewpoints different from your own. Here’s hoping your children have some better influences.

    • Bloggs says:

      08:53am | 13/05/11

      I am not religious and hate the way some religions infuse stupidity into the heads of children.  But how can we expect children to grow into adults and make a personal choice if we do not educate them on all sides of the argument?

      Or do you prefer to infuse your kids heads with your own poor grammar and bias?

    • Michael N says:

      08:54am | 13/05/11

      It appears that your children are destined for greatness…

    • Dan says:

      09:13am | 13/05/11

      ^ typical example of the new age Atheist right here folks.

    • CD says:

      09:58am | 13/05/11

      Thanks for the laugh Danielle. I’m really hoping that was a satirical post -you might need to look up what that means.

      Now be honest did someone have to read this article for you?
      Best part were the replies. Guys you broke me up!:)

    • Chris L says:

      10:24am | 13/05/11

      That’s right Dan, take an extreme case and refer to it as “typical”. Just like those “typical” Christians at the Westboro Baptist Church eh?

    • Rover of North Cooma says:

      12:47pm | 13/05/11

      Bad news Danielle, it’s already in public schools and has been for at least four years as it was introduced by the Howard government.

      It is, however, optional. So all you have to do is make the school aware that you don’t want them sick religious freaks spreading their bullchit to your kids and there’s no need to resort to home schooling or stuffing anyone.

    • Daniel says:

      02:52pm | 14/05/11

      @Rover And if the school simply says “no, too bad”? I know of several instances where that has happened.

    • waynevan says:

      08:11am | 15/05/11

      At a time when the stated goal of the Sydney Anglican church is to have 10% of Sydney in Bible teacing churches, it can hardly be said that we make up a large percentage of the vote. And amongst Christians there is a huge variety of political views so I still state that if this is a vote buying exercise it may not be a successful one.

    • Tedd says:

      01:37pm | 15/05/11

      waynevan,
      sydney anglicans number about 60-80,000 in an area with a total population of 4-4.5 million i.e. they are about 1.5% and not increasing since that stated aim.

    • Bob says:

      06:57am | 13/05/11

      As these chaplains end up doing all sorts of unqualifed counselling work with students with special needs, I wish the money could be spent on providing mentors for troubled youth or specialist, qualified counsellor staffing. This would be a much more even handed way to spread the biccies.

    • Glen says:

      08:47am | 13/05/11

      Couldn’t agree more Bob.

      Great write-up Penbo.  If my son who is currently in prep comes home with any right/wrong checklists which includes a tick for preying daily I will be down at that school so fast it’s not funny…

    • Confused Fuddy Duddy says:

      09:25am | 13/05/11

      “.. for preying daily ...” A Freudian slip on the keyboard?

    • CD says:

      10:01am | 13/05/11

      Glen if your child comes home with ticks for ‘preying daily’ whip him/her out of that school pronto!;)

    • Glen says:

      10:36am | 13/05/11

      Haha, yep CFD

    • Mr Chips says:

      10:50am | 13/05/11

      Or just whip him/her… better to be out of school, though, or those namby-pambies will be after you for abuse, while leaving the actual predator in place…

    • Geoff says:

      11:11am | 13/05/11

      Bob, one of the interesting things is, speak to any of the chaplains in schools and you’ll see the heart motivation behind what they do - love for the kids in sacrificial ways. For them it’s not about the pay check, the hours etc. They are not in it for the money. On the other hand, as you suggest with paid professionals, the cost to government would grow 10 fold.

    • Elin says:

      04:50pm | 13/05/11

      @ Geoff
      Apart from the fact that you seemed to have entirely missed the point, are you suggesting that professional counsellors are only in it for the money? It certainly seems that way. “They are not in it for the money. On the other hand…”
      So basically, children should just be happy with untrained laymen because actual trained professionals are just too darn expensive.

    • Empire says:

      09:23am | 14/05/11

      Bob and co, I like the way you’re all so sure these school chaplains are unqualified. My guess is they are every bit as qualified as a lifeline (counsellor) is.
      Have any of you even met a school Chaplain? (as Andrew Skegg said they aren’t apparently allowed to preach) I could understand the bitching if you had a bad experience with one, and would enjoy reading about it.
      The problem with employing a professional counselor is, they don’t want to work for $20 000 per year!
      Considering that school chaplains don’t and aren’t allowed to preach about God. This article is misleading at best, and at worst an out right lie.
      I’m assuming the author was not aware of the difference between voluntary religious class’s (that cost $5 at my kids school, and a signed consent form) and the school chaplaincy program.

    • Jason says:

      08:34pm | 14/05/11

      Have any of you people spoken to principals and the teachers to ask if they think the Chaplains are a good idea? Have you asked if the Chaplains have been a positive influence? Do you know that Chaplains must complete qualifications in youth work, and basic counselling skills? do you know that most Chaplains work for just over $30, 000 a year and do it fairly tough financially? Try getting a counsellor and psychologist working for that sort of money!!
      Over 98% of principals are happy with their chaplains. I think we should ask the question where is atheism and secularism leading us? To a better place? I don’t think so!!!

    • Dave says:

      09:13pm | 15/05/11

      @ Empire.  How can you expect a religious fundamentalist who believes that you go to hell if you don’t pray to their God NOT to evangelize to children ?  It is hopelessly unrealistic to expect that they would not do so.  Despite the rules and the fact that organizations contributing Chaplains claim publicly to be following them, it is clear that breaches of their obligations in this regard seem to be quite common.  http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/08/3185850.htm
      The scheme has no place in taxpayer funded schools in 2011 and should be scrapped immediately.

    • Empire says:

      09:38am | 17/05/11

      @Dave, I agree that you will always have the occasional religious fundamentalist who is taking advantage of the situation, and they should be immediately relieved from their position until it’s investigated.
      Just as there will always be the occasional extremist parents, who want to create a mountain out of a mole hill and instill fear when its not warranted.
      I am purely basing my opinion on the four chaplains I have personally met. Who were young had just finished missionary work over seas, or were about to go soon. They were enthusiastic and inspiring, and didn’t feel the need to talk the talk, instead they walked the walk.
      I do agree that any good person not just religious people should be able to apply for the job, I would jump at the opportunity to spend time with my child.(I don’t qualify, because I don’t belong to a church.)
      I’m just saying don’t allow previous bad experiences, and hatred of religion, to take away something that may be an extremely memorable and inspiring life experience for your child. Its too easy to hate and judge someone you haven’t met.

    • Maddy says:

      07:08am | 13/05/11

      Great article.

      It does seem like a cynical move by the Prime minister to play down her atheism and keep the ALP right happy.

      When I see this sort of thing happening, it does make me realise that Gillard has no honor or backbone when it comes to standing up for her own beliefs.

      It is typical of this government. All spin, no substance. They will say anything to try and worm a few extra votes. Pathetic…even more pathetic is they think the average Australian buys this crap.

      But lets face it, the Libs are not going to scrap it either. I think we are stuck with this. Disgrace.

    • bleD says:

      08:36am | 13/05/11

      You are right. Libs and Lab are equally at fault on this issue. So at the next Senate election vote for your Secular Party candidate.

    • Reggie says:

      08:57am | 13/05/11

      Amazing Maddy; “When I see this sort of thing happening, it does make me realise that Gillard has no honour or backbone when it comes to standing up for her own beliefs.”

      So it would seem you DEMAND that the Prime Minister rule autocratically and not give any consideration to the requirements of the people who elected her? Do you have the faintest understanding of how democracy works?

      I certainly don’t support religious instruction in schools but I most certainly would not dictate anyone’s beliefs unless they were injurious to the wider public. To do otherwise would be to adopt the the same faith based autocratic system displayed by the religious.

    • fml says:

      10:30am | 13/05/11

      Maddy

      “it does make me realise that Gillard has no honor or backbone when it comes to standing up for her own beliefs.”

      As much as i hate the idea of religious nuts in schools, the prime minister isnt running the country according to her own beliefs.

      she shouldnt be pandering to religious nut jobs either, or allowing indroctrination of the youth, imagine if it was any other religion, the uproar woudl be immense.

    • Mick says:

      04:37pm | 13/05/11

      I remember one of my experiences of religious education at a state selective school. A man who was a staunch creationist and seemed to have no skills or training apart from his belief was the “teacher”. We were taught all about how we were going to hell unless we lived our lives by a bunch of rules that his particular brand of religion believed in.

      He also taught “science”, a friend of his was a scientist who could prove that the earth was only 6000 (or whatever they believe) years old. Somehow sediment does not form in layers but in a horseshoe shape.

      I left school 12 years ago and things may have changed by now but anecdotally I have heard that they have not.

      I am not a religious person but I am not against it either, I believe that it is a personal choice and should be respected as such.

      I am also a tax payer and I do not want these fanatical types of people teaching the future generation with my tax dollars. How many qualified people could the government put into schools for 220 million. A lot of these people may come from religious based organisations as this is something that the more charitable religions already do through there charity arms.

      Also why aren’t children taught religion but as an educational subject. Religion, like it or not is a huge part of our society and maybe this would be a better country if we all understood each other a little more.

    • killerbee says:

      07:09am | 13/05/11

      I am convinced that this Government is made up of Marketing Graduates but ones who have come straight from Uni and have had little work experience.

      If you go through their policy decisions they are all populous, no brainer ideas that are designed to “sell” their product (get re-elected) but unfortunately they miss entirely their target market, the people.
      They are making the fundamental mistake of treating their customer like they are idiots, it works for a short time but businesses that try it eventually go broke.
      Unfortunately, in this case we are talking about the Australian economy.

    • Daemon says:

      08:10am | 13/05/11

      And the Australian electorate… sometimes they are idiots, so they are getting what they pay for, but apart from that I agree. The only differences between Labor and the other lot are as follows:

      1. Um
      2. Ahhh
      3. Oh goodness

    • CJ Morgan says:

      07:29am | 13/05/11

      Yes, I was just reading a report from another site that describes how Access Ministries - who control most of the school chaplains in Victoria - see the chaplaincy program as their opportunity to turn school kids into “disciples”.  From personal experience the situation is much the same with the Scripture Union in Queensland.  Undoubtedly in other states the Christian organizations that organize these insidious proselytizers similarly flout the terms of the program, which nominally proscribe indoctrination of our kids who are in the care of the chaplains.

      If parents want their children indoctrinated in religious mumbo-jumbo, then they should send them to Sunday school, the synagogue, madrasseh or whatever.  Any counselling or guidance required should only be provided by properly trained and qualified teachers, psychologists and counsellors.  Indeed, funding these missionaries-in-disguise must surely reduce funding available for legitimate guidance and counseling services.

      This is just another area in which the Gillard government has disappointed.

    • Daemon says:

      08:12am | 13/05/11

      And Peter Rabbit would be different how?

    • CJ Morgan says:

      01:13pm | 13/05/11

      @ Daemon:

      I have little doubt that under an Abbott government, things would be even worse.  Fortunately, there’s almost zero probability of that, but even under Turnbull I can’t see the chaplaincy program consigned to the dustbin where it belongs.

    • Kevin says:

      07:31am | 13/05/11

      This from a leading article in the Age this morning:

      “The federal and state governments said last night they would investigate Access Ministries after a recording of the speech by Evonne Paddison was brought to their attention.
      Despite repeatedly denying that Access Ministries tried to convert students, the recording reveals Dr Paddison told the 2008 conference that ‘‘without Jesus, our students are lost’‘.
      ‘‘In Australia, we have a God-given open door to children and young people with the Gospel, our federal and state governments allow us to take the Christian faith into our schools and share it. We need to go and make disciples,’’ she told the Evangelical Fellowship in the Anglican Communion national conference in Melbourne. ‘‘What really matters is seizing the God-given opportunity we have to reach kids in schools.’’

    • David says:

      07:33am | 13/05/11

      What’s this?  Another anti-Christian rant from The Punch?

      It must be Friday!  Or any other day ending with ‘y’ for that matter.

      The Punch started with so much promise.  I was an avid reader.  Every day The Punch was on my must-read list.

      I don’t bother to check it much anymore, however.  And this kind of article is the reason why. 

      Only yesterday, I was explaining to a work colleague my theory that, while The Punch was refreshing at first because it tackled the big issues, it’s quickly degenerated into using crude articles principally designed to shock and deliver as many comments, however boorish and ill-informed, as possible.

      No doubt this strategy is driven by the desire to boost reader and comment numbers (and advertising revenue?).

      However, for this reader, it’s very hard to take The Punch seriously any more.  Honestly, after this week and all the issues raised by the Budget and the Opposition’s reply, the best you can do is attacking the chaplain program?

      The vision!  The imagination!  Not.

    • marley says:

      08:01am | 13/05/11

      I don’t think this is anti-Christian, or even anti-religion.  It’s pro secular education.  If parents want their kids to have Christian or Muslim or Hindu or animist beliefs and values, it’s up to the parents to provide them at home, or send their kids to a faith-based school.  Given that there is a separation of Church and state in this country, it is inappropriate for state taxes to go to funding religious instruction.  It’s as simple as that.

    • Karen says:

      08:08am | 13/05/11

      Anti-Christian? No. Pro-division of church and state.

      Christians are entitled to their beliefs but they are not entitled to foist them on students in public schools who have no choice but to be there. There’s no way to “opt out” from a chaplain who has free range over the whole school and may lead assemblies in prayers. This is not fair to those who are not religious or come from a non Christian background.

      It’s amazing how the pro-chaplain Christians don’t seem to understand the concept of fairness.

      Also, how would they feel if the majority of chaplains were Muslim? Or from the Church of Scientology, as mandated by the government? Would we still hear the mantra about how they’re “doing good” in our schools?

    • Daemon says:

      08:20am | 13/05/11

      I’m sorry David, I must hacve missed something there… let me see.. oh yes there it is
      “... don’t bother to check it much anymore, however.  And this kind of article is the reason why….”

      The chaplain program in my opinion, is only a part of the issue, and if you spend a week going through there will be plenty of other opinions expressed about the budget.

      I agree that the chaplain program in and of itself is not that important, but surely it needs to be shown for what it is, a grab for the vote of the christian lobby, who will be too filled with the goodness of god and what she has done for them, to note that their entire vote only cost 222 Million dollars. Bargain in my view.

      If you read the entire thread however, there are elements of both sides saying essentially the same thing. The chaplain thing should not be in schools which are already failing to educate properly, attempting to achieve lowest common denominator educational outcomes, and removing the encouragement to excel. Even you can’t see that as a good thing, surely.

    • Alex says:

      08:33am | 13/05/11

      David, your words say you don’t check the Punch, but your actions say otherwise! Clearly you have read this article closely enough to comment on it!

      It’s an opinion site. You may disagree with all the opinions, but that doesn’t make them badly written or ill-informed.

    • PaulC says:

      08:56am | 13/05/11

      David, in your speed to defend your religious beliefs you missed the point. Penbo revealed yet another area ($220 million worth) where this socialist government is taking control of the private lives of Australians.
      This is social engineering (the core of the Greens), and along with the debate on gay marriage an area of personal choice that should not be dictated by a government. By insisting Christian religious instruction be taken by all students in all public schools, then Muslims and all other relgious groups can call for equal time.  You are extremely blinkered David.  But then my experience is that there are some christians who are no different than the fundamentalist Muslims. If you do not share my beliefs, then you are wrong, evil and should die.

    • AliceC says:

      08:56am | 13/05/11

      I think you’ll find it’s about keeping the church and state seperate. No one is stopping you from attending church, or sending your kids to Sunday school. Just don’t bring it into the public classroom.

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:57am | 13/05/11

      Err, David, the Punch isn’t anti-religion, it’s pro-choice.

      But then, that’s anathema to you as well, isn’t it?

      Look buddy, I don’t want my child informed on spirituality by anyone OTHER THAN ME (and her mum).  Don’t you get that?!  She’s my responsibility, and I’ll raise her as I see fit.

      You don’t get to put religious types OF ANY DEMONINATION into the church - this argument would be the same were they Imams, Buddhists, Llamas or whomever.

      I’ll make the point again.  Take these nine words:

      THERE. IS. NO.PLACE. FOR. RELIGION. IN. PUBLIC. SCHOOLS.

      Where does it say “Christianity” in any of that?

      Exactly.

    • Mayday says:

      08:59am | 13/05/11

      Where is your vision and imagination?

      Can you for one minute put yourself in the position of non believers whose taxes pay for indoctrination and fallacy to be taught at their local Primary and/or Infants schools?

    • Markus says:

      09:28am | 13/05/11

      It isn’t helpful when the opinions become extremely homogenous and repetitive though, Alex. In this regard I think David has a point.

      Yes, the Punch team disagree with the Chaplaincy program. We got that point when they posted that opinion two weeks ago. And the month before that.

      I’m just waiting for the exact same article next week. Coincidentally just above the one villifying Australians for being ignorant and insensitive toward Islam.
      Perhaps by Tory instead of Penbo this time. Wait, Tory already did one? I guess it’s Ant or Lucy’s turn.

    • Harquebus says:

      09:42am | 13/05/11

      “anti-Christian” which, I am, means “anti-Zombie-worship”.

    • TheRealDave says:

      09:46am | 13/05/11

      @David, the Punch regualrly has Christians, and other writers representing other faiths, posting rebuttle to various articles touching on issues of Faith and Religion. As a ‘regular Puncher’ you’d know this.

      Further, the Punch seeks to ‘tap into’ issues de jour that are in the headlines and affecting many Australians. $200 million thrown into School CHapllaincy, in public education which is supposed to be a modern secular place of learning for our CHildren, is something that affects msot Australian’s don’t you think? AS such we SHOULD be talking about it. Even if it makes some people uncomfortable.

    • Reggieman says:

      09:52am | 13/05/11

      Unlike David, I do read The Punch every day. And I agree with him. The Punch has become a defacto atheist manifesto. How many articles this week regarding religion? Four, three in the last three days. How many articles about the important stuff, like asylum seekers (1), the budget (3) and Abbott’s reply (0)? Seems The Punch simply want to gain as many comments as possible to make them seem a legitimate Opinion site.

    • David says:

      10:00am | 13/05/11

      @ All the Lovers Who’ve Responded to My Post Thus Far

      You’ve all proven my point; quite beautifully, in fact.

      Most of you have ignored completely what I said (which basically attacked The Punch for another boring anti-Christian article, or anti-chaplaincy article, whatever you want to call it), and jumped straight into the boring and well-worn debate about religion v non-believers.

      This is my problem.  These kind of articles attract mostly rabid bigotry and extremists (though many are polite enough) and do nothing to advance genuine debate.  The Punch can wallow in good comment numbers, but don’t pretend any of you are making a contribution to public debate (unlike me, of course).

      And, a few of you precious pettals have picked up your pitchforks and skewered me on the assumption that I’m pro-Christian and pro-chaplaincy program.  I’ve said nothing to indicate one way or the other whether I support religion or the program.

      Crikey (pun intended, because there’s another blog that’s gone to the dogs!), the point is I think The Punch is engaged in a race to the bottom, with you lunatics leading the charge.

      Good day to you all.  I think I might retire to read The New Yorker.  [*Sticks nose into air, sniffs haughtily, and hits ‘submit’*]

    • Elphaba says:

      10:19am | 13/05/11

      To the whingers about how The Punch is turning into an atheist manifesto, why don’t you stop bitching and do something about it?  The Punch accepts submissions, so why don’t you write something?

      Otherwise, get over it.  Go blog on a Christian site if it’s pissing you off.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      10:24am | 13/05/11

      Just because ACCESS Ministries happen to be Christian, do not make the mistake that some anti-christian conspiracy theory is at work.  I think you will find the same argument would occur if Muslim Immams or Buddhist Monks had privileged access to public school children.

    • Luke says:

      10:43am | 13/05/11

      “I don’t bother to check it much anymore, however.  And this kind of article is the reason why. “

      The term you’re looking for here is “confirmation bias”.

    • Mahhrat says:

      10:59am | 13/05/11

      @David, you won’t go read anything else, because you’re having too much fun thinking you’re funny.

      But I’ll bite, because I know I’m funnier.

      You can’t try to derail the topic of the blog and then criticise people for putting you back on it.  That’s a bit like advertising yourself as an escort but refusing to go to a basketball game because you don’t like tall people.

      Your points are so nonsensical that it’s difficult to argue them, so because you’ve so adroitly pointed out that you haven’t given an opinion one way or the other about the Chaplaincy issues being discussed here, I would like you to come off that particular fence and also describe (no citation needed) why you don’t think it’s important enough for the amount of coverage it’s getting on The Punch.

      Eagerly await your reply.

    • Dazeddazza says:

      11:10am | 13/05/11

      There have been many articles in Punch written by religious believers, and I think there has been a fair balance.  The only difficulty is reading the boring comments from atheists and believers alike.  Dont like religion myself, but it is still a free country, well, insofar as Punch comments go!!

    • David says:

      11:20am | 13/05/11

      @ Mahhrat

      You wish.

    • Joseph says:

      11:42am | 13/05/11

      What’s this? Another reactionary easily offended christian comment on The Punch?!?

      It must be friday! etc etc etc etc..yawnnnnn….

      Don’t spend our bloody tax dollars on evangelising our bloody kids…. an easy to understand principle with broad support.

      Why shouldn’t we talk about this?

    • RobJ says:

      01:27pm | 13/05/11

      “Most of you have ignored completely what I said (which basically attacked The Punch for another boring anti-Christian article,”

      No, it’s about the Govt paying $220 million to put Chaplains in public schools and the claims that chaplains are proselytising. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent the truth?

    • Mahhrat says:

      02:13pm | 13/05/11

      @David, who said”

      Mahhrat, you wish.

      What’s this, another mainstream evangelist who can’t describe his point of view so simply attacks the man?

      It must be Friday! Or..

      Well, you get the idea.

      There were about 6 million articles on here earlier this week about Bin Laden (and they’re still going on).  I don’t want to read about him - he was a terrorist, the people he preyed upon killed him, move on.  Yet here we are.

      But do I attack The Punch for reporting it?  Of course not. 

      The Punch’s banner reads “Australia’s Greatest Conversation”.  How many conversations do you have (even keeping aside your obvious religious observances) about God or Theology?

      In my world, they happen pretty frequently, seconded only by football and what my gorgeous lady and I are having for dinner tonight.

      So yes, this situation is REALLY REALLY REALLY important to a growing number of people who do not want an organisation that preaches control or damnation putting its representatives anywhere near our kids, BE DAMNED WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO TEACH.

      This website is nauseatingly central in its ideologies.  Crikey is Left, Bolt and that other moron are right.  I like this one because both left and right are heard, as well as, yes, atheists.

      As with too many people either side of the line, you’re not about conversation and more about control. 

      I wish? You’re damn straight I wish.  Why is me having a different idea of God’s role on this Earth so difficult for you to comprehend?

      What’s wrong, @David, don’t have an argument?

      I know I’m being a bit straw man, but no more so than you’ve been.

    • Reggie says:

      02:19pm | 13/05/11

      Mahhrat; “Look buddy, I don’t want my child informed on spirituality by anyone OTHER THAN ME (and her mum).  Don’t you get that?!  She’s my responsibility, and I’ll raise her as I see fit.”

      Thanks Mahhrat, don’t you think that might be a bit possessive and domineering then? Do I understand correctly that you claim the right to inculcate your views, and your views alone, into the mind of your child? May I presume she is home educated and will never be allowed to see the world as it really is? Or only the world as Mr Mahhrat see it?

    • David says:

      07:07pm | 13/05/11

      @Mahhrat

      Thanks, I’ll take that last post as a compliment.

      But, if this is “Australia’s Greatest Conversation”, then I’m Australia’s greatest raconteur and conversationalist.

      Hmmmmm .... somehow ... hmmmmm ...

    • Lisa says:

      08:03am | 13/05/11

      It’s very simple.
      I have chosen to send my child to a public school not a religious one.
      I expect a non secular education, within the school curriculum. If we decide that religion should be in her life, then it is a personal choice outside of this, and should be taught in our own time.
      Presently the alternative to ‘scripture’ in school is reading in the library, or colouring in.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      09:47am | 13/05/11

      lisa…i would say that colouring in would be far more beneficial than sitting in a classroom with a zealot trying to convince them that they are being watched over by an imaginary friend.

    • Geoff says:

      11:07am | 13/05/11

      I don’t know if it’s just my imagination but I think you are all misinformed when it come the role of chaplains in schools. I know many chaplains in public schools and I can tell you they are doing none of what you all are saying - they are not running scripture classes for a start… in fact much of what you discuss is run by volunteers invited in from the local school and requested by parents. Running scripture in schools is another debate entirely than the vital role of chaplaincy.

      How many of you all know personal an chaplain within the school context gives you authority to speak about what they do and/or why?

      Every chaplain I know is deeply involved in practical ways such as child protection, suicide prevention, assisting teachers with challenging students with learn difficulties, a listening ear to those who need to talk etc. The guidelines given to chaplains are very clearly defined. If anything one could argue too limiting.

      If you are all so interested to mouthing off about how bad it is to have chaplains in school, perhaps you should have a chat to the parents of those children they would no longer have due to suicide, or the teachers who find the assisting role of chaplains to defuse difficult classroom situations.

    • RobJ says:

      02:28pm | 13/05/11

      “an imaginary friend. “

      Some friend…..

      “Every chaplain I know is deeply involved in practical ways such as child protection, suicide prevention, assisting teachers with challenging students with learn difficulties, a listening ear to those who need to talk etc. The guidelines given to chaplains are very clearly defined. If anything one could argue too limiting.”

      Why does it have to be a chaplain? Why can’t we have secular counselors?

      ” too limiting”

      In what respect?

      Anyway, I know exactly what my child has been taught in so-called ‘religious education’  (you evidently do not) which is run by Christians funded by this $220 M. My son was taught pretty much the same as I was in SUNDAY school (funded by the church, NOT the state) he isn’t taught religion, he’s taught Christianity.

      Anyway, he reckons it’s nonsense so I’ve agreed to let him withdraw, he gets to read what he likes rather than learn what the ‘RE Teacher’ believes. My family don’t share those beliefs.

      You want your kids to be Christians? Fine, send them to Church, stop wasting time and money that the school could better utilise.

    • Ancient History says:

      08:06am | 13/05/11

      Jools - your are the school clown dressed in wolves’ clothing yet hiding as Little Red Riding Hood.  God should be taught in Ancient History classes or children not attending RI should have a class of Ethics which does no harm.

    • Harquebus says:

      09:43am | 13/05/11

      While they say the Lord’s prayer at the beginning of each parliament, that ain’t gonna happen.

    • Danielle says:

      08:09am | 13/05/11

      @ David,  you would have to defend the the chaplain program, that’s all we need , more monkey’s like you on the planet.

    • Mr Chips says:

      11:17am | 13/05/11

      Assuming you are the same Danielle, launched into earlier, (and that is premised on the timbre of your writing), why do you think we make such mockery of you?

      Could it be because your contributions are not contributions at all, but rather attacks on the person who makes a statement that you think you object to premised on what someone has read out to you?

      Can I suggest a new, less biased article-reader before future contributions?

    • Jess says:

      08:10am | 13/05/11

      I agree with the chaplaincy program. I understand it is based on the religious majority of the area in which the school resides. Even if the chaplains, of whatever religion, simply provide support for young people - I am happy to contribute my taxes to this.
      Penbo - I don’t think your mentioning of scripture classes was relevant to this article. Seeing as scripture is volunteer-run and school-instructed, you can ask for your school not to be involved, right down to your daughter (if there is not enough support to stop the school). Certainly, in some scripture classes I have witnessed within schools, they are evangelic and actively informing children (correctly or otherwise). This is completely separate to chaplaincy, the link being ‘religion’, but I think that is a poor link to make - as though your only evidence for this article is a disappointing scripture lesson…
      I would have expected more evidence about chaplaincy.
      Even more so, to say that more money should be spent on the MySchool website, which has not proven to help schools at all… gosh.

    • PaulC says:

      09:26am | 13/05/11

      Jess, thanks to this socialist government relgious instruction in public schools is no longer a volunteer-run program. It is paid by our taxes - $220 million worth.
      Chaplaincy is a church-run private organisation funded from many sources including local government, local fund raising, and parents (nor the department of education) have any way of knowing what any individual chaplain is teaching. 
      This is a Gillard vote catcher. She received a great deal of flack for telling the truth. She is an atheist.

    • Graham says:

      09:40am | 13/05/11

      Jess has offered the most sensible comment on this list so far. Scripture classes and the chaplaincy program are two entirely different things. I don’t think the author of the article has done his homework properly. If he didn’t want his daughter exposed to the “evangelical mindset” of the scripture teachers he shouldn’t have sent her to the voluntary scripture classes. “School chaplaincy” is not the same as “scripture classes”.

    • Phil says:

      10:04am | 13/05/11

      Jess I agree entirely. We will of course be shot down by all the pro atheism advocates and its principals and opinions on which the punch is heading. As David the puncher said above, the Punch started out with great promise, but has turned of late more into an anti GOD, pro labor party, pro gay site when you look at the number of articles of late.

      Pembo, with your former or possibly still current direct link to the labor party why dont you have the My Schools web site altered to show which schools have either no chaplain or one with a background with which you are in agreement. Alternately you and your fellow atheists could start some private schools and promote pro atheism classes instead.

      See just as you think this is an outrage, I also think that polluting childrens minds with pro climate change crap at school in wrong to name but one example, but as a parent who gets involved with my daughters and their education, asking each day what they learned, what they thought about the learning, I become aware and am able to provide added guidence and/or opinion on a particular topic. More teachers than not are pro union and labor, but that doesnt mean my kids will grow up to vote green, labor or liberal, they will ask for advice but ultimately follow their own dreams and ideas, yes early on they will probably follow their parents, but have their own minds, being a christian, atheist, catholic, muslim or hindu is exactly the same. Is it that your child may learn something at school and start to ask you tough questions that one is scared of?

      Chaplains are not teaching scripture as their main function, which surely some will do as a side line but they are there for counselling, comfort and support when a child is upset over a number of issues, be that a divorce or seperation at home, sure mum and dad will provide some of this and maybe in good parenting external counselling, but about when the split is not a good one and what if mum is always telling child that dad is a useless prick, and dad is saying mums a dirty slag who ran off with his best mate, which does happen, who is able to be the fence sitter and just listen to the child without judging them.

      Ultimately the chaplain may pray with the child, but to say that they are solely there to indoctrinate them is BS and not what the program was designed for.

      As for budget money, hey yesDavid you fairly you got into them over the $ 84 set top box for $ 350 that they want to do, but why not go further and say no public funded cancer treatment for smokers, no alcohol treatment for binge drinkers, no pension from 2050 onwards, if you dont save tough shit. This is a slippery slope, which would cause great discussion and tempers to frey and best not done, but it is the same logic of I dont want my tax dollars funding some stuff I disagree with.

      David just cause your personal beliefs dont agree with one part of the teaching or a program at a school introduced should this be the case for everyone. I am sure you will find that many dont want history taught, let alone geography, languages, maybe science and music, but hey opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

      We have enough mental illness in society, and given children rarely get any counselling and the number of marriages that break down, pets and friends die or horrific accidents occur, sickness etc and children need counselling and assistance, what other options are available and who will pay for them. Yes its $ 10 per person for that. Try taking your child to a child psycologist to work out issues and its $ 100 an hour minimum with often more than one session required.

    • Skip says:

      11:05am | 13/05/11

      Absolutely agree. Your argument is a straw case. Funding for Chaplaincy & Scripture / RI etc are two totally different issues.

      None of the argument seems to be around outcomes noted from Chaplaincy in schools - just opinion, informed or otherwise, on the Christian basis from which they operate.

      The lines are clearly spelt out for chaplains & their ability to speak about their faith (whatever that is) in the school context. The government has indeed sought to erect as many barriers as it can between church and state in the implementation of the program.

      Where else is it going to find an organisation / group willing to put in the effort to do what they do for so little compartive remuneration? Others have suggested qualified counsellors etc to fulfil this function. Good luck with that give the fiscal constraints any government finds itself under.

      And what organisation is going to supply, prepare & deliver food for children who come to school with significant nutritional needs? Most schools have trouble filling the tuck shop roster.

      I think for the government, chaplaincy is a very smart option to back and offers a very high return on their quite frugal investment. There’s noone else offering better bang-for-buck which one would think (without the extreme cynical view of vote-buying) is the essence of government fiscal policy.

    • Mahhrat says:

      11:08am | 13/05/11

      @Phil, good reply, but you’re missing the point mate.

      Unlike Dan, you’re at least being honest, so I’ll give you an honest reply.

      When it comes to “Climate Change” and all the other examples you mention, I happen to agree with you there too.

      My religious leanings don’t matter one jot.  The fact is, we are a secular democracy.  The separation of church and state is in the most important document in the country!

      Similarly, my view on climate change or anything else doesn’t matter.  They are all equal in as much as they should not be taught in a school until they are a double-blind scientific FACT of life.  Either that, or you teach both sides of the story.

      Now, sorry to cherry pick, but here’s the clincher:

      You said, “Chaplains are not teaching scripture as their main function…”

      It doesn’t matter what the “main function” is, even you’re saying by proxy that they teach their version of spirituality.  That’s what’s wrong!  In addition, the Chaplains are not qualified counsellors! 

      In the same way you disagree with their teaching of climate change, I disagree with any teaching of spirituality, except where it is historically significant.

      It’s not about religion, it’s not about The Punch, it’s not about anything except THAT THERE IS NO PLACE FOR RELIGION IN PUBLIC SCHOOLING.

    • Phil says:

      11:31am | 13/05/11

      Mahhrat.

      So what is your option?

      How will children be counselled, by the teachers at the expense of other students? What about bullying? Most teachers dont give a toss, example the recent hero slam dunking is agressor.

      The fact that the chaplains are probalby christian, in some areas they may be muslim, hindu etc, it is based on the dominant faith or the region/area?

      Your comment we are a secular democracy? Our history, constitution and most of our laws are based and founded on Judeo Christian teachings and laws. You can agree or disagree with the laws, just like one is allowed to have a different view of whether chaplains are a good or bad idea?

      Anyway as mentioned above, if one part of the population gets its way, we will be forced to prey 5 times a day within 50 years.

    • Kevin says:

      12:16pm | 13/05/11

      @Phil
      “Ultimately the chaplain may pray with the child, but to say that they are solely there to indoctrinate them is BS and not what the program was designed for.”
      I don’t think anyone is saying that’s their “sole” purpose.  However, I will repeat the words of Evonne Paddison, CEO of Access Ministeries:
      ‘‘In Australia, we have a God-given open door to children and young people with the Gospel, our federal and state governments allow us to take the Christian faith into our schools and share it. We need to go and make disciples’’.
      I agree that the program is not designed to be an opportunity for indoctrinating small children, however, it is clearly open to abuse.

    • Phil says:

      12:49pm | 13/05/11

      Kevin so for one person to claim something makes it gospel.

      I have no idea whether what you state is correct or one persons opinion of the said statement by that woman.

      By the way do you think that the teachers should do the role of chaplain? Alternately, who will counsel the children if and when they require it?

    • Phil S says:

      12:52pm | 13/05/11

      Phil Says:“How will children be counselled, by the teachers at the expense of other students? What about bullying? Most teachers dont give a toss, example the recent hero slam dunking is agressor.”

      One would presume the answer to that question would be by properly trained counsellors, rather than untrained religious chaplains…

      I don’t have a problem with chaplains being in a school, but it is a problem if they are the only source of counselling, or independent adult to talk to.

      Sometimes, children need an adult to talk to who is not their parent or teacher. They should have someone available to talk to who is not going to try and sneakily shove religion down their throat when they are in their most vulnerable position.

      What would a chaplain say if a child is concerned about their developing sexuality (let’s say they are homosexual atheists).

      What would a trained counsellor say?

      Which do you think will be more beneficial to the child’s health? Telling them they are bad, to suppress what they are, or else they’ll go to hell, or telling them that it’s OK, and there are other people like them?

      What if the child has a question about sex?
      What if the child has a question about Muslims or Hindus?

      The problem is that a religious chaplain is guaranteed to have a bias. Children don’t need more biases shoved down their throats, they get enough of that from teachers and parents. They need someone who at least has a chance of being less biased and is at least properly trained for counselling children.

      Of course if you are a religious fundamentalist, you will likely think everything I’ve said is a load of crap. Hopefully you are not though, and can at least see that providing trained counsellors is going to be more useful than providing a single chaplain belonging to one faith (whatever faith that is)

    • Kika says:

      01:24pm | 13/05/11

      I agree Jess. And here’s something. If atheists believe they can provide a balanced ethics classes without having to refer to religion, why couldn’t David pull his daughter out from the class? Because all the other kids were going. So he’s teaching his daughter that it’s better to go along with the crowd rather than saying no and doing something you believe in. Very ethical indeed.

    • Kevin says:

      02:02pm | 13/05/11

      @Phil
      The “one person making the claim” is the CEO of Access Ministeries.  These comments were reported in the Age this morning (see my post above).  Access Ministeries, in responding to the report, have not denied or questioned the accuracy of the quoted remarks.

    • Ikki says:

      07:56pm | 13/05/11

      Great post Jess & many of the others who responded to you after such previous folly from fools.
      Interesting how it all started with French history & has anyone bothered to comment on where they are now from that decision? Has anyone been there lately? Yes they separated the Church & State so now there is hardly any Church left (“you beauty” some may cheer) but as indicated before, we all have a need that only God can fill, so what has taken the Church’s place? Soon we will see France become an Islamic state & it is not the only Western country this is happening to. Our Judeo Christian roots got watered down with our prosperity (we don’t need God) & I agree that some RE material can be dodgy & miss the point. A good Church will stick to the Bible & that is what RE teachers should do too. It is when truth is compromised just to please everyone’s ears that poo happens instead.
      Also in the folly of blurbs was mentioned about some teachers denouncing God which I know is true. No wonder so many kids have no direction & stability & my tax dollars (before tithing) pay BIG money & allow for that.

    • Sickemrex says:

      11:31am | 14/05/11

      @ Ikki

      Call me a fool, but I’m going to respond.

      “we all have a need only God can fill”.  Really?

      Would it perhaps be more prudent and respectful to say “I believe we all have a need only God can fill”?  Or, “I have a need only God can fill.”

      If I said “No-one has a need that only God can fill” that would be taken as offensive and rightly so.

      I would respectfully suggest that my needs are not known to you and that it is somewhat arrogant to suggest that you can speak for the entire human race.  Which God, by the way?

      In relation to your suggestions regarding the teaching of the Bible in school.  I have no problem with secondary school children being taught the Bible, Torah, Koran, Book of the Dead or Buddhist koans.  As long as it is in the context of the relevant book being a taught as document upon which some people base their beliefs.  I don’t believe it is in any child’s interests to be told that a particular book is The Truth, The Word, and the Only Way To Live Your Life or You’ll Burn Eternally in Hell.  Please note, I include all religious texts.

      Why secondary school?  If any of those books were just ordinary books, I don’t think a primary school aged child could be expected to read and understand them.

    • Ikki says:

      01:54am | 15/05/11

      dear Sickemrex
      OK
      Yep
      No & No
      Not offensive but unspirited and unwise
      The God of Abraham Isaac & Jacob who “showed thyself” as Jesus Christ
      If you were saved from a burning hotel & knew there were people (not necessarily Christians) sleeping inside, wouldn’t you risk all to go back & show them the only way out?  Even when “experts” are saying don’t do it?
      The Bible has proved it is no ordinary book but extraordinary. It is the living word of God that won’t die no matter how many trials it has endured over many millenniums throughout the world.
      Finally…children especially little ones LOVE it…as Jesus said…unless you become like these little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
      PS In boxing in with the other religions as you like to do, please note that Christianity is not a religion, it is a faith. It is ALL inclusive (for everyone) but the hard part for most is- we cannot earn it by ourselves because on our own we will never be righteous enough for an all righteous God.

    • God is watching says:

      08:11am | 13/05/11

      Most teachers will readily concede that School Chaplains allow them to concentrate on their teaching, & stop having to be unpaid social workers.  The personally hear the confidential reports of our local Chaplains, and some of the problems the children they work with have to face, are horrendous.  Including how they really feel when daddy is now sleeping with someone else, & it’s not their mum.

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:18am | 13/05/11

      Or when (as is more often the case) mummy is sleeping with someone else and it is not daddy.

    • RGG says:

      09:19am | 13/05/11

      Would a secular counsellor not be more appropriate, then? Say one of these children is struggling with their sexuality, among all these other issues. Do they need to be told it’s a sin, or be objectively helped through what is surely one of the most difficult and confusing times in their lives?

    • kyra says:

      09:31am | 13/05/11

      Yes that’s the problem, the chaplins hear these things from the kids and aren’t properly trained to help the child cope with it.

    • God is watching says:

      04:16pm | 13/05/11

      I am advised that all of the School Chaplains at YOUTHCARE WA are fully trained, in particular in counselling troubled students.  Much more so that the teachers, who are not paid to sit around doing counselling all day.  It is only a small handful of athiests who are opposing Chaplains, not the teachers, who now realise they are getting some fantastic support from their chaplain.  The professionalism of WA School Chaplains is so high, that the WA State Govt has now approved for them to provide counselling for emergency [eg bushfire] victims in this state.    Gillard is smart enough to know that Chaplains are an exceptionally good investment for Public Education.

    • scott says:

      07:57pm | 13/05/11

      Yeah, and having a chaplain tell the kid his father is going to burn in hell will really make things better wont it???

      Kick out the chaplains and spend the $200m on social workers or secular counsellors.

      There are plenty of Sunday schools for those that wish to indoctrinate their children.  The rest of us pay for that through their tax exempt status, surely that’s enough support.

    • God is watching says:

      03:54am | 15/05/11

      @Scott.  If you check out how Chaplaincy operates around Australia, you will see clearly that what you are concerned about won’t happen.  The Chaplains are too busy trying to bring a bit of heaven into some tragic family sitations.  You are confusing Religious Education teaching with Chaplaincy.  But even today, RE teachers are not like this.  I am very grateful my RE teacher taught me the 10 Commandments.

    • christine m. says:

      08:12am | 13/05/11

      Love the comments “I actually choose to send my child to a public school”.  Why would anyone (in right mind) choose that? Why not say “I haven’t saved the money for a private school”.  The self-righteous thing fools no one.

    • progressivesunite says:

      09:24am | 13/05/11

      Actually, it depends on the private school. If you can afford the $25k a year elite private schools, then you’re right - they’re hands down better than public schools. However, I’d say heaps of public schools are better than the random tin pot $5k a year jobs that pop up everywhere. Add in selective public high schools here in NSW and you’ve got another group again. You can’t just lump “private” v “public” and compare them so simply.

    • James1 says:

      09:47am | 13/05/11

      Sorry, who is self-righteous again?

    • AliceC says:

      09:50am | 13/05/11

      There are actually some very good public schools out there. There would be more if they recieved better funding….

    • Kyle F says:

      10:59am | 13/05/11

      Brilliant- I couldnt have said it better myself!  T

    • Chris L says:

      11:30am | 13/05/11

      I believe some of the attention on the MySchool website was due to the fact it showed many public schools outperforming many private schools.

      Also, if you specifically want to avoid religious indoctrination for your child what choices are there available?

    • Richy says:

      01:01pm | 13/05/11

      Christine.M..Your arrogance is showing and is BREATH TAKING….....Any public school can teach you about this as well as some self respect. Too bad you were never taught this in your TOWER !

    • scortty says:

      08:00pm | 13/05/11

      For some of us, not having our kids brainwashed means far more than money.  We spend the saved cash on tutors to ensure they get their education, without having to sacrifice their minds

    • Jill Lyall says:

      11:18am | 01/07/11

      Well, well, snobsville is alive and well - “I haven’t saved the money….” - so is that what you think?  That people send their children to public schools because they were lacking in the ability to save money?  Your arrogance and ignorance is astounding.  Apart from the fact that many people who could afford to send their kids to good private schools DO choose pubic schools because they prefer them, what about people who actually do not get to save because they are hard working, average income Australians who have no disposable income left after feeding their families and putting a roof over their heads??  So not much empathy coming from you - you must be Christian!!

    • Spaghetti Godess says:

      08:14am | 13/05/11

      ...“eternal hellfire” - oh, how I remember that being taught to me at a Convent - I couldn’t sleep at night and had nightmares.  I finally grew up and eventually understood that most gods are just male control freaks and holey books written by the deluded.  Yet the Govenment gives millions for kids to be brainwashed.  Glad The Punch continues to write about God Squads and the hypocracy of our PM

    • bswan says:

      10:04am | 13/05/11

      You should’ve concentrated on the spelling before growing up

    • Reggie says:

      02:55pm | 14/05/11

      Spelling lapses do not negate anything the lady has to say but her logic does. We’ve certainly come a long way since the Earth was considered the centre of the God supported universe. 

      I was just thinking about someone’s choice of name back there, “God is watching.”  If he is, he must have been cacking himself with delight over the Japanese and NZ Earth quakes and the destruction and pain of the various wars. Or perhaps he is only telling those who worry about these sort of things that he really is NOT watching at all. 

      Ockham’s razor suggests the most obvious answer is probably the correct one.

    • Glen Bernard says:

      08:18am | 13/05/11

      The idea that it’s forced is laughable- students can go to the library instead of scripture.

      I’m not surprised that someone who chose public schools has so little knowledge of what’s involved.

    • fml says:

      10:42am | 13/05/11

      Then the other kids meet up at recess and torment the kids that opt out by saying that they are going to go to hell.

      Thats exactly what the chaplains want.

    • CN says:

      11:58am | 13/05/11

      But this article isn’t about scripture classes, it’s about the funding for the National School Chaplaincy Program.

      My public school education taught me not to shoot my keyboard off before I was in possession of as much information as I could reasonably be expected to have my hands on. Perhaps that’s where we differ.

    • fml says:

      12:17pm | 13/05/11

      CN,

      Yes they are technically separate, only if you guarantee that no chaplains are also teaching scripture, then and only then would you be in a position to imply that someone has problems with comprehension.

    • CN says:

      01:01pm | 13/05/11

      Technically separate? Yes, and also factually and legally separate. The scripture classes (A.K.A. Religious Education or R.E. in some places) are a part of the varying school curricula (set currently by the States and Territories), and are NOT the same as the National School Chaplaincy Program. The NSCP is an intitiative of the Federal Government, funded with Federal dollars, and born from a Howard Government proposal.

      Scripture classes are not a component of the NSCP. A chaplain may teach a scripture class, but the class would be there anyway, with or without the NSCP. The chaplain would not be there without the NSCP; this is not the same as that.

      My point stands.

    • fml says:

      02:01pm | 13/05/11

      Yes, so we are in agreement they are two different things.

      “But this article isn’t about scripture classes”

      This author is claiming that the school chaplain is teaching scripture using funding from the school chaplaincy program.

      ““There is enough feedback now to show that quite understandably chaplains cannot confine their activism. Evangelical work is their lifeblood and it’s naïve to expect them not to pursue it around young people. They can’t because of their training. They can’t approach these matters from any other perspective.”

      So yes the main theme is funding for the school chaplaincy program, but as you see, chaplains are using it to preach scripture, while you have grasped the basic theme of the article, you seemed to have stopped right there.

    • Kika says:

      03:24pm | 13/05/11

      FML - they don’t! I remember the few kids who opted out of our RE classes. Yeah sure it was weird but no one teased them about it! I don’t even think hell was talked about at all!

    • Damian says:

      08:20am | 13/05/11

      I am troubled by the ALP’s move to go down this path.  It is certainly not an educational or social outcome they are seeking to achieve, but a political one.  Public schools, as suggested by David, need more resources, not people whose job description is vague and whose clientele is uncertain. If we are going to chaplains into schools, let gets some some monks and some fakirs as well so at least we can be seen to be non-discriminatory.

    • kate says:

      08:24am | 13/05/11

      Wow, never thought I’d find myself agreeing with David Penberthy but this article is spot on.

    • Mahhrat says:

      09:32am | 13/05/11

      I know, right?

    • Freddo says:

      08:34am | 13/05/11

      This waste of public money is just delaying the inevitable and the money would be spent on educating the little tackers in Indonesia where they appreciate our money being spent on their religious education. Anyway in 50 years kids in our state schools will be praying five times a day.

    • Phil says:

      11:12am | 13/05/11

      Freddo I like your work. You are so right, but hey its easier to beat up the smaller kid at school. Chaplaincy is an easy target, forget the $500 million for islamic schools in Indonesia, or the 1.7 Billion for our conceirge and check in service in Northern Australian waterways, for a life on the public purse, hey attack Chaplains.

      You are right about praying 5 times a day in 50 years, but they kindly turn a blind eye to that one heaven forbid they offend the muslims.

    • Gary Matthews says:

      08:35am | 13/05/11

      So most of us don’t want Chaplains in our public schools. Just making some comments here won’t stop it If we want it stopped start calling MP’s as well as using the media. I’ve called my MP.

    • chez says:

      08:52pm | 13/05/11

      The government recently finished taking public submissions about continuing the chaplaincy program in schools. Clearly, the majority of submissions from schools and the community convinced the government of its benefits. The government has responded by retaining the existing program and extending it by the look of the extra money allocated in the budget.  Democracy at work!

    • Reggie says:

      08:42am | 13/05/11

      By his absence we are driven to assume that Erick is either scared of Friday the 13th or chooses to stick to his policy of not discussing Politics and Religion. Prudently reserving his fluids for the other gender.

      Oh Erick.

    • DaveF says:

      08:52am | 13/05/11

      In the public school system, there should be ethics classes (as a catch all for those kids who have parents that don’t teach them general societal expectations) and religious studies (covering a range of religions so that kids can be educated about different religions and learn tolerance and respect of these beliefs).

      There are plenty of opportunities through church, faith-based education etc for scripture/specific relgious education.

    • Jeff says:

      08:59am | 13/05/11

      A little ironic that you use a photo of Billy Graham the day after he was admitted to hospital.

    • Missy says:

      11:19am | 13/05/11

      How is that ironic?

    • Ikki says:

      02:31am | 14/05/11

      and the re worded caption from the Pink Floyd hit as well Jeff. It would be more truthful if the word remained as “teacher” as this is the case when our kids are taught there is no God & no creation in the classrooms we pay tax for.

    • andi says:

      09:05am | 13/05/11

      45 years ago I chose NOT to attend Religious instructions and devoted my time to Biology instead. I was austracised by many teachers and yet all those who ended up in jail and breaking the law went to the services. So it failed then and will fail again. Religion is dangerous, very dangerous no matter which religion it is.

    • Dan says:

      09:08am | 13/05/11

      Another self important Atheist attack on religion and of course it is the Christian religion. Who would have known!.

      The religion of Atheism is uncomfortable that the Christian religion (or any religion) challenges it’s views of nothingness. Banish any religion that gets in the way of the Atheism.

      The internet is right….Atheists are dicks.

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:24am | 13/05/11

      Dan - the Chaplaincy Program is not restricted to Christian teachings, Budhists, Muslims, etc are free to apply for the positions and, where they are a majority of the population in their areas, are more likely to get the role (credentials considered) than other applicants. This is not an atheist attack on religion it is an attempt to maintain a separation of State and Church.

    • TheRealDave says:

      09:58am | 13/05/11

      No, parents are concerned about Theists trying to indoctrinate their children by stealth. We’ve stopped going to your churches….and now you are trying to get into secular schools to preach and indoctrinate.

      And common sense is right…..Theists are dicks that can’t think for themselves.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      10:33am | 13/05/11

      Right.  It’s because ACCESS Ministries is Christian that people oppose it, not because they object to their children being forced feed religious beliefs.  Am I to assume you would be pleased if Muslim Imams taught the Koran to your children?  Would you defend Buddhist Monks leading your child’s class in meditation to attain Nirvana?

      Please.  We see through your veiled disguise of martyrdom and offence.

    • Chris L says:

      03:55pm | 13/05/11

      It’s an honest mistake. Dan reads the word “Religious” and his mind spits out “Christian”. And obviously we’re attacking Christianity because we saying we don’t want them to have that personal one on one time with our children. Such heathens!

      Funny how religious people try so hard to call atheism a religion. They must be trying to say “you’re as bad as us” but simply end up looking like they lack basic comprehension.

      After all, would you describe someone who doesn’t collect stamps as someone who collects spaces? Yet somehow a person who doesn’t believe is a person who believes in not believing. I’m sure that makes all kinds of sense to someone.

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:09am | 13/05/11

      Yvonne Paddison, the woman who heads the Anglican group that provides chaplaincy in schools is on record as telling her people ‘‘In Australia, we have a God-given open door to children and young people with the Gospel, our federal and state governments allow us to take the Christian faith into our schools and share it. We need to go and make disciples,”

      A clear breach of the non-proselytising guidelines of the Chaplaincy program.  And yet the Brown/Gillard government throws another $220 million at this program to extend its reach???? Obviously Gillard is trying to secure the god-botherer vote for Labor with this one.

      Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/school-religion-classes-probed-20110512-1ekr9.html#ixzz1MBN00clD

    • Huey says:

      09:09am | 13/05/11

      Religion, like toilet training and manners is up to the parents to teach not our secular bloody government.

    • maureen askham says:

      09:10am | 13/05/11

      Once again Penbarthy leaves the impression that his affinity with the Labour party and its disastrous multiculturalism policies has completely blinded him to his own culture - despite his confected working class image. The English revolution preceded the French by over a hundred years. It was the English Commonwealth !653-1659 that established the separation of powers and is the basis for the Commonwealth of Australia. Penbo says in his bio he did not study law.What does that mean? Why mention it at all then? I doubt very much if Penbo will have the courage to publish this but if he has any respect for his own heritage and for Australia, he will publish a groveling retraction. Is he another Liberal arts graduate that was deliberately blinded to the proud history of his own culture? Or did he simply fail even to check Wikipedia before writing? Tut, tut, tut.

    • Jill says:

      09:37am | 13/05/11

      Separation of powers and separation of church and state are two different things. The separation of powers is the division of the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government. The separation of church and state is the division between organised religion and sthe state.

      If you’re going to condescendingly tut at somebody for making a factual error, you should probably make sure that you’re not the one who’s wrong.

    • iansand says:

      09:42am | 13/05/11

      There is no separation of church and state in England, and never has been.  Mrs Quinn is still the head of the Anglican Church, as has every monarch been since Henry VII, and (maybe until recently??) various Archbishops had the right, ex officio, to sit in the House of Lords and vote as the Lords Spiritual.

    • droogi says:

      09:12am | 13/05/11

      From my own personal interaction with schools and chaplains, I have yet to meet a teacher who didn’t praise the benefits of school chaplains. Their PRIMARY purpose is to be a non-judgemental adult figure, a friend that kids can go to with their problems, whether this be problems at home or problems at school. Something most teachers do not have time for with their busy schedules, nor is it always appropriate for students to view their teacher as a friend as this could hampen the teaching environment.

      Kids aren’t dumb, they can very easily spot fact from fiction and if you are pushing your own agenda. The chaplains I have met are surrounded by kids that love them. ALL the teachers I have spoken to, have said that if the funding stops and the chaplains go, there will be a VERY big hole left in the school.

    • Seano says:

      09:33am | 13/05/11

      You haven’t met many teachers, I haven’t many who think these lessons are anything other than 45 minutes of wasted time. I have yet to sit in on one of these lessons that wasn’t laughably obsurd. Colouring in pictures of Jesus isn’t teaching the kids much.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:02am | 13/05/11

      “Their PRIMARY purpose is to be a non-judgemental adult figure, a friend that kids can go to with their problems”

      I thought they were called ‘Guidance Officers’...like the two my Catholic High School had independant of any religion classes and church services way back in the late 80’s…..

    • Two Mummies says:

      12:48pm | 13/05/11

      Be nice if they were all non-judgemental but from personal experience when it comes to kids presenting with same-sex attraction issues the judgements abound in spades!

      They are supposed to offer service to all kids whether they are gay or straight or muslim or jewish but reality is very different.

    • loxy says:

      09:16am | 13/05/11

      Great article Penbo! Julia’s atheism was of great appeal to me last election and I had high hopes we might finally get the separation between politics and religion and scrap waste of money programs like the chaplains in schools. Alas it was not to be, Julia is nothing but a coward and a puppet. But what’s the alternative, a religious nutcase like Abbott?

    • MicWells says:

      09:16am | 13/05/11

      I would not mind so much if it wasnt bias toward christianity. After all christianity is one of the newer religions and borrows a lot of dogma from other religious scriptures. What do hindu, buddhist, muslim and mormon students do while those classes are being taught.

    • Seano says:

      09:39am | 13/05/11

      Muslim students go to scripture. I’ve sat in on those classes.

      Anyone not catered for go to non-scripture where they are currently not allowed to be taugh anything. Persumably for fear they might be prevented from seeing the light. Upper primary kids are supposed to do homework etc and the little kids typically watch a DVD. Either way it’s 45 minutes of faffing around.

      This is why the ethics classes are a great idea. And the fact that Barry kept them is one of the reasons I voted for him.

    • Lisa says:

      09:44am | 13/05/11

      An excellent point. With our school’s scripture classes we had the option of Catholic, Christian or nothing.
      I do want my child to learn about religion as a whole, but I want her to learn about ALL religions and the effect they have on society.
      currently the christian propaganda that comes home is informative pieces like “God created the trees and the birds”. How is that helpful?

    • Ikki says:

      02:51am | 14/05/11

      Lisa- your last line- it may help them make informative decisions when they are taught that they really came from apes & that their skin got lighter as their intelligence grew & that the entire universe & everything in it just happened from nothing and for no reason etc etc

    • Sickemrex says:

      12:30pm | 14/05/11

      Or their skin got lighter as their melanocytes responded to the amount of UV light in their environment.  And as they moved to colder climates they had to utilise more tools to keep warm.  Just sayin’.

    • Dave says:

      09:19am | 13/05/11

      This program is obscene and should be abandoned. Now that thanks to Howard we have a viable independent school sector, every aspect of religion should be kicked out of our public schools.

    • loxy says:

      09:23am | 13/05/11

      No one is suggeting the funding be stopped, just transferred to actual qualified counsellors who don’t have an agenda to push.

    • Miss says:

      09:31am | 13/05/11

      It might help to do some research first.  Religion classes at schools are totally separate from the Chaplaincy program.

    • Harquebus says:

      09:36am | 13/05/11

      “fiscal” is American english and is only used in Australia by wannabe economic eggspurts. “Financial” is *** Australian english. ***
      Indoctrinating minors to religion is child abuse. No two ways about it.

    • Joel B1 says:

      09:46am | 13/05/11

      You lost me as soon as you mentioned the French.

    • Seano says:

      09:49am | 13/05/11

      Having sat in on a number of these classes I can tell you (and I’ve said this before) that they are invariably presented by a grumpy, unprepared, untrained old coot and as such largely a waste of time and money.

      There is often little to no educational content and the religious content IMO as an atheist is poor. Telling 9 year olds that “God made a perfect world and the only reason that it is messed up is because you are all sinners” is just plain wrong. The kids who go to non-scripture spend 45 minutes or so screwing around or watching DVD’s.

      If we’re going to keep scripture classes then the quality of the content must be raised with some sort of outcome based curriculum. And all children not attending scripture should go to ethics classes. Either that or scrap the lot and reclaim 45 minutes of teaching time.

    • Yuri says:

      01:01pm | 13/05/11

      Perhaps your not reading other people’s ports Seano. If you were you would see that Scripture/RE classes are entirely separate from the chaplaincy program, many people have posted on this. Maybe if you cared to look you will also see your own multitude of posts that are ignorant of this fact.

    • Seano says:

      03:48pm | 13/05/11

      “Scripture/RE classes are entirely separate from the chaplaincy program”

      Seriously who cares champ? There’s been plenty of discussion on SRE classes on this thread.

      It sounds to me like you’re looking for an excuse hide from the fact that SRE classes are a complete waste of time and money. If the school chaplaincy program offers anything in the order of the SRE classes it is also worth SFA. Religious education/councilling is for home and church.

    • Joan says:

      09:54am | 13/05/11

      `There was a boy who prayed every day. Tick.`  I presume `because as we all know, any kid who doesn’t pray to God daily is destined to burn in eternal hellfire`  is your embellishment???  Nothing wrong with a prayer by a child or anyone ....and its nothing to do about hell.  Prayer is about comfort , easing of pain, worry, admission of a personal fault to ease a conscience, Children have worries concerns, and feel powerless, nothing like a prayer for comfort.  You bet a child that says a prayer at night before going to sleep doesn’t need a dose of Phergan to put them to sleep.

    • Grant says:

      09:56am | 13/05/11

      I find it astonishing that no one has commented on the most disturbing part of the school chaplaincy program.

      We are all aware, and has been established, that there is a rampant problem of systemic sexual abuse of children by a variety of members of different religious groups. 

      So, the rational thing to do is provide $220 million to place a sexually repressed religious zealot in every school in Australia with full and private access to children of a variety of ages.

    • Another Chris says:

      01:56pm | 13/05/11

      Grant,

      What a load of rubbish. Sexual predators exist in society generally. Not just the priesthood. I am so sick of the stereotypes that SOME (and I say some) atheists always point to as a reason not to believe not to mention the other crap which is punched (pun indented) by the media. Really Grant.. 99% of Chaplains would be fine, but just like any cross section of society, you will find people with the disorder of this form.

    • Grant says:

      03:23pm | 13/05/11

      Chris

      Sorry to burst your anectodal bubble.  But, the percentage of sexual abuse per capita is higher for religous people who have a position of power than it is for the general population.

      and I am using the US as an example here.

      But between 1950-2002, 4% of priests/clergy members were accused of molesting.  Whilst the NORMAL adult male population is around 1-2%.

      With about 40,000 priests in the US vs an approximate 250,000,000 US adult population, the percentage of priests in the US is just .016% of the adult population.

      That would mean that the .3% chance of abuse comes from .016% of the population. Or, there is nearly a 19 times higher probability of abuse from a priest.

    • grant says:

      08:59am | 14/05/11

      Booya…!

      What, no reply Chris.

      I love it when factual information totally destroys made up sh#t that people write. 

      You were thinking, “surely no one would actually have the facts to backup their argument against my made up comment”.

      You got pwned.

    • stop the madness says:

      09:57am | 13/05/11

      I wish Labor would stop trying to chase the Liberal nutjobs into extremism. Don’t they understand their base is leaving them because they’re trying to outdo the Liberals in irrationality? Off shore detention, school chaplains? It’s embarrassing.

    • David says:

      09:57am | 13/05/11

      As a young child, during ‘religious instruction’ at a public schooI, I was taught, quite convincingly, that if I sinned I would BURN IN HELL. (I have seen pictures!).  Unfortunately I would not die during this ordeal, it would go on FOREVER and EVER! I would suffer UNBEARABLE PAIN and MISERY FOR ALL ETERNITY. At the same time, the kiddies who did the right thing would go up into the sky and live with God in a beautiful paradise. No young and impressionable child should be deprived of this essential and comforting news.

    • David says:

      10:00am | 13/05/11

      The fundamental problem is that, like it or not, religious views, INCLUDING ATHEISM, are conflicting.  For a start, either God exits, or he doesn’t.  If he does exist, then to effectively ignore him in our schools by following the secular view of not talking about him or showing him respect in any way is hardly the way to teach our kids to respond to the God who creates or sustains us.  Equally if God doesn’t exist, well understandably parent don’t want their kids wasting their time or being indoctrinated by religion.  This conflict is exacerbated by the current biased funding towards secular government schools.  If education funding were distributed equally to all children regardless of their education provider, all parents could choose to send their child to a school which fitted with their beliefs which would solve some of this conflict

    • Deepthinker says:

      10:05am | 13/05/11

      Now that you non-believers have undermined any decent standards of living in favour of the homosexual movement, and any other deviant behaviour that turns you on, and the world now has more murders, rapes, robberies and penetentiaries full to the brim, why are you getting upset when anybody tries to teach your children about a decent way of life. Just because you can’t believe in something that you cannot see,hear, or fathom out doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. I suppose you don’t believe in GRAVITY either.

    • Grant says:

      10:57am | 13/05/11

      Deepthinker

      What you have is called a ‘risk perception of crime victimisation’.

      Basically because the media favours reports on violent and other serious crimes, people like you begin to believe that crime is out spiralling out of control, even though it isn’t.

      For example, a recent United Nations report on crime trends across all westernised nations shows that there is a decline.  The Australian Bureau of Statistics also clearly details an overall decline of crime in Australia, this includes robbery, murder and rapes.

      Is it fun being stupid?

    • fml says:

      10:58am | 13/05/11

      You should have chosen another moniker, not fitting at all, and deeply disturbing.

      Good day, not god day.

    • The Original Oz says:

      11:16am | 13/05/11

      By all that belongs to the Sky Fairy - Deepthinker must be standing in the shallow end of the pool to come up with this garbage. Not thinking too deep there Deepthinker.

    • Dan says:

      11:51am | 13/05/11

      Look at all the smug Atheist insults.

      Obviously Deepthinker must be stupid because the doesn’t agree with the Atheist religion.

      And Christians are the bad ones ?!!!!!!

      LOL

    • Elphaba says:

      12:29pm | 13/05/11

      @Deepthinker, most people in the prison population today identify with a faith.  The winner in the United States is the Baptists.  There are more Baptists in American prisons than any other faith.

      Non-believers make up the smallest percentage.

      I’m with Grant - how does stupid taste?  Bitter, and tinged with regret, I’d imagine.

    • The Original Oz says:

      12:30pm | 13/05/11

      No @Dan - Deepthinker is a moron because he is generalising his comments and blaming Atheists for undermining decent standards, promoting homosexuals and “other deviant behaviour” etc., etc. He totally overlooks the role that the church has in spreading (and perpetrating, homosexual and deviant behaviour (e.g. kiddy fiddler priests being protected by cardinals and popes). These Chaplains are being allowed in to the schools in order to provide advice and guidance to students not to prosoletise and convert. Preaching is not part of the job description yet the head of the Anglican organisation running the Chaplaincy program is out there urging the chaplains to convert and recruit for the church. A breach of trust and contract.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:34pm | 13/05/11

      Dear Deepwater:
      I am extremely insulted by your implication that people who don’t believe in God must, by definition, be completely amoral. Perhaps you need a 2,000 year old book of questionable provenance to tell you how to be a Good Person, but some of us are able to figure that out for ourselves.
      Good day to you, sir / madam.

    • fml says:

      12:36pm | 13/05/11

      No Dan,

      Deepthinker is stupid because he thinks we dont believe in gravity. And that he is totally incorrect when he says the world has more murders and rapes now because of non-believers, and that religious values are the only means to live a “decent life” and that he thinks that we are the ones that actually are blind.

      Also Atheism isnt a religion.

    • Grant says:

      12:59pm | 13/05/11

      @ Dan

      Are you sure you are o.k. with the semantics ‘Atheist religion’. 

      Those two words together make sense Dan? 

      Remember, Google is your friend.

      Lets clarify this for you:

      - atheism is the ‘absence or lack’ of belief; not
      - the ‘belief’ that there is no god.

      You see, I also have a ‘lack’ of belief in zombies (as much as I love zombies), but my ‘disbelief’ of zombies is not in itself a religion.

    • Mr Chips says:

      01:07pm | 13/05/11

      @Deeplyflawedthinking - what a horrifying mish-mash of dribble you have left for us to fight over. It doesn’t even bear thinking about that something like you may be one of the presenters in schools, but shockingly, that is quite likely to be the case, since it is fairly obvious that no one in the real world would employ a person with such seriously flawed perceptions of their world.

      In terms of gravity - do you find it difficult to manage the ways we propper people have of demonstrating it? Drop an apple for example. Show us the proof for faith again, if you can.

      Further, one assumes your church is one of those which welcome difference into the congregation. Large groups of aboriginals each week, perhaps? A few Ethiopians, the odd lesbian and a gay doctor and his boyfriend in your parish are there?

      North Ryde I would have thought, but that’s only a guess.

    • Deepthinker says:

      01:12pm | 13/05/11

      Being good and leading an exemparly life may make you a ggod citizen, being educated may make you a better one, but, if you take GOD out of Good you in effect have nothing or to put it into language that ewes know, being sheep without a shepherd, you have a big O in your future. Of course ewes already know this and try to justift it by knocking something that you are too dumb to understand. It is folly to argue with someone who has no brain.

    • Kika says:

      01:19pm | 13/05/11

      Deepthinker - it’s because of their depravities that they are an atheist because it’s easier to deny God then fear Him.

    • Frank says:

      02:07pm | 13/05/11

      You are a complete fool. Stay away from my children.

    • Kevin says:

      02:26pm | 13/05/11

      LOL.  Thanks “Deepthinker” (snigger) for lightening up an otherwise serious thread.
      “if you take GOD out of Good .. you have a big O in your future”.
      Great, I’m a bit of a fan of Roy Orbinson.
      (BTW, how does that work in France?  Bit hard to take the DIEU out of Bon.)
      I particularly like the assertion that non-believers are sheep because they don’t have a shepherd.
      Keep posting DT, you’re hilarious.

    • Warren says:

      03:12pm | 13/05/11

      @Deepthinker. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

      I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

      Leviticus. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Indonesians, but not New Zealanders. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own New Zealanders?

    • John says:

      07:42pm | 13/05/11

      Deepthinker has a point, Atheist parties, governments and nations seem to be more criminally prone. The Bolshevik Communists hated the idea of god so much, that they treated the people as cattle, animals that needed to be taught how to think and act (like a dog trainer, monkey trainer). When they the animals(people) didn’t do as they please, they just slaughtered them like cattle. They were evolutionary, believing they were animals and the only the strongest survived, this meant murdering all their rivals and anyone that threaten them. When Communists invaded Poland, they had all Polish generals and high officials slaughtered. Germans soldiers found this site and told the world, the allies reaction was to blame the Germans(convenient). It really makes you wonder, why the allies, allied themselves with the Communists. Their sick perverted religion of communism which was atheism at the core was savage and primitive beyond belief. Please don’t try to defend atheism with a 100 witches burned at the stake and don’t bring up the crusades, yes crusaders slaughtered a few thousand people. But lets get realistic here, in Spain about 800 years ago the Muslim invaders and occupiers after winning a battle in Spain on Spanish soil, executed and beheaded 25,000 Native Spanish male soldiers to build a minurate. Why is that nobody in the WEST brings up this issue? Why is that Crusaders are the problem?? Well Western Communist Critical theory, is about criticizing western society only, not other foreign elements of the world.  If it wasn’t for the crusaders, Templars you all be enslaved into the ideology of Islam.

    • LC says:

      10:08pm | 13/05/11

      <clears throat> Deepthinker,

      You are a complete fool. Where to start?

      Maybe with this: I find it ironic you label atheists as deviant when you are a representative of an organization guilty of repeatedly removing and relocating clergy members guilty of pedophilia rather than at the very least handing them over to the appropriate authorities and bringing some justice to the poor victims (particularly when pedophilia is one of the most serious offenses under the laws of your holy book).

      Secondly, stop taking everything you read in the Herald Sun so seriously. According to the UN, crime in the first world has been in steady decline since the mid 70’s.

      Thirdly, stay the f*ck away from my (future) children. I don’t want them growing up to be narrow-minded bigots like you. They don’t need, and I don’t want, you or any members of their organization anywhere near them. My hopefully soon-to-be fiancee and I are quite capable of teaching my child right and wrong, thank you very much.

      Fourthly, we may not be able to see gravity, but it’s quite obviously there. If you don’t believe me, jump off a 3 story building onto concrete. Tell us how it goes.

      Good day.

    • SydSteve says:

      10:06am | 13/05/11

      An ethics class would be much better than scripture in my opinion. Even if religions are mentioned as a way of explaining what makes up different cultures morals and ethics.
      It’s laughable to think that a child can go from a classroom lesson about multiculturalism straight into a christian sermon. More than a little disappointing.

    • Alan says:

      10:09am | 13/05/11

      Religion of any persuasion has no place in a seat of education and should not be funded by taxpayers.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:11am | 13/05/11

      Its an absolute disgrace this Chaplaincy program. I chose to send my children to a Catholic Private school, despite my ridicule of that particular faith and knowing that my kids would be taught that religion as part of their education. My informed choice weighing up the benefits of the overall education ‘package’ of the school. Fair enough. Thats what parents do.

      But this forced indictrination crap in the public school sector which is supposed to be secular really really pisses me off. This would be a huge factor in my decision who to vote for…if it wasn’t for the fact the opposition leader is a religious nutbag who would think that this program is only a ‘great start’.

      I can’t beleive a Prime Minster of this country who is brave enough to stand up and announce her personal non-beleif publicly would implement such an abhorent plan. I like Big Jules for a lot of things, but not this, ever.

    • fml says:

      11:01am | 13/05/11

      Christ on a bike,

      The prime minister isnt running this country the way it is because of her values! she has 22 million other set of values to consider.

      To put this down to a flaw in her character is childish and disgraceful.

    • christine m. says:

      11:12am | 13/05/11

      Julia Fan alert!  They are scarce as the proverbial…... (apology offered, if you meant Caesar)

    • fml says:

      11:25am | 13/05/11

      Sorry i have thing for red heads, if tony bought a wig i’d be in trouble.

      He has got a rat face, but a great figure.

    • Kika says:

      01:16pm | 13/05/11

      Isn’t that fairly hypocritical? Sending your kids to a Catholic school knowing they will receive a Christian education and then winging that kids at a secular school have an option of receiving a religous education. If you care so much about it, why don’t they go to a public school then?

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:17pm | 13/05/11

      I send my kids to A Catholic school because, despite the religious teachings they will get, I know they will get a far better overall education without the local ferals screwing it up for everyone who wants to learn. I think a few religion classes and church services is fair compromise to get that better start in life don’t you? I see nothing hypocritical at all about it and I was very clear it was a decision we took as parents in an effort to do the best we could for our kids. And according to NAPLAN results over the past 6 years its paying off well.

      I like redheads, so sue me :p

      Better than getting screaming wet knickers for the stuttering god botherer with the wing-nuts on the side of his melon wink

    • LC says:

      10:21pm | 13/05/11

      “Big Jules” is a big joke. Labor has to go. I feel they’ve betrayed me when I lasted voted for them in 2007 in a big way (though I can at least say I’m not responsible for their more recent messes).
      Too many ballsups (they couldn’t even hand out free money properly).
      Too much spending. We’re up to our waist in deficit.
      While my fingers remain crossed that the Liberals pull the knife on Abbott before the next election, I’ll vote for his party in 2013 regardless of whom is in charge.

      On the matter of expansion of the scripture and chaplaincy programs, worst comes to worst, I’ll have my kids home-schooled.

    • Elphaba says:

      10:12am | 13/05/11

      Sounds like scripture hasn’t changed much.  I was publicly educated, and the once a week scripture teacher told us that God would decide our time was up one day and strike us down.  And that we had to pray for forgiveness four ourselves and our family and friends otherwise we wouldn’t see them in Heaven.

      Not cool.

      I have no problem with religious theory being taught in schools - a fundamental understanding of the history of religion and the types of worship that take place in the world is essential.  But if school chaplaincy programs even have a whiff of anything like what scripture classes were like, then they are a digrace, and should be outlawed.

      Spiritual education should be left up to the parents of the children, or left to later in life when the child becomes and adult and is free to make their own decisions.  If it’s never too late to become a born-again Christian, why do they need to start indoctrinating so early?  Oh, that’s right - because free-thinking is the work of the Devil…

    • Elphaba says:

      10:45am | 13/05/11

      lol, “four”.

      *for.

    • Shifter says:

      05:04pm | 13/05/11

      FORE!

      I was privately educated in primary school, and publicly for high school. I can’t remember much of my indoctrination except that we used to visit this underground chapel every so often and my imagination went wild thanks to Indiana Jones.

      Turns out that I was not a Raider of the Lost Ark.

      But I survived OK, I think, and now I’m thinking about investigating Buddhism.

      The problem I have here is that the government seems to have budgeted for another idea where they aren’t telling everyone the full story. What is the chaplaincy for? Is it religious theory? How about ethics education? Counselling? Scripture? All or some of the above?

      To be honest it seems like another giant waste of money caused by the ACL.

    • christine m. says:

      10:22am | 13/05/11

      Stop, people.  You’re embarrassing yourselves.  The more outraged and overwrought, the worse the spelling gets.

    • fml says:

      11:06am | 13/05/11

      no no you got the lyrics wrong, after stop your supposed to say

      “Collaborate and listen”

    • Grandmaster Flesh says:

      01:55pm | 13/05/11

      @fml; ‘*you’re’

    • fml says:

      02:26pm | 13/05/11

      @Grandmaster Flesh

      As in, “You’re a nit-picking, typo nazi little tw@t”?

      Gtocha

      Yer thats right, thats how i rowll. I hope this is making your head explode

    • Graeme says:

      10:22am | 13/05/11

      I wish to draw your attention to the Access Ministries Facebook Cause

      http://www.causes.com/causes/600135-support-faith-in-schools/about

      where they put their positions as follows and to which I have added my comments in brackets;

      1. Australian students have the right to religious education.
      (Yes but not in secular State schools. Students wishing to have religious education are free to go to Sunday school)

      2. The values offered in religious education have positively shaped the Western world for centuries.
      (Wrong. A popular religious fallacy, unsupported by historical evidence. I would be keen to know what positive influence centuries of various inquisitions have brought to the Western World, not to mention the Crusades.)

      But here is the real doosey!

      3. The Education and Training Reform Act (2006) clearly states that schools must give access to faith providers for SRI (Special Religious Instruction).

      (Wrong. The Education and Training Reform Act (2006) actually states;

      ‘2.2.11. Special religious instruction
      (1)    Special religious instruction may be given in a Government school in accordance with this section.’

      Access Ministries have mis-quoted the Act which says ‘may be given’ IT DOES NOT SAY ‘must be given’)

      Access Ministries are found lacking by being more than happy to perjure themselves in order to maintain a privileged presence in state schools at tax-payers expense. They appear to be in need of some moral and ethical guidance themselves!

      Please cease funding this travesty.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      10:26am | 13/05/11

      RE is easy enough to avoid; as a parent inform the school that you do not wish your child to participate and that you would rather they had a free period. During my schooling those of us so identified at a state primary had an extra sport period with the PE teacher. Given child obesity concerns now and the concerns of atheist parents, this would seem to be an elegant solution even today.

      As for $220 million spent on the Chaplaincy service; there will always be cases where tax money is spent on portions of the wider community and might not specifically apply to a given individual’s interests. In this case the religious people are having some funding spent on them since religious parents are taxpayers too.

    • Burko says:

      10:29am | 13/05/11

      State run Public schools are a place of learning. I dont mind so much if my kids are taught religion , but please teach them religion and not just Christianity. We all know that there are many different forms of devotion to a supreme being or beings so why not teach the difference between religions, the reason why different cultures have their belief system and how the various religions evolved to where they are today. The question is rhetorical, I know the answer,  its the Almighty Dollar that wont let this happen.
      The big problem is that Christianity is a belief and not fact. Christians dont have fact in god they have faith, and to teach kids this one sided message could be dangerous in the long run considering how we are supposed to be a mutlicultural society, accepting of everyones differences in race creed and religion, and to teach only one side of faith in the Almighty as being right is….well….frightening.

    • Luke says:

      10:31am | 13/05/11

      “Conservatives who deride state schools as being valueless, and regard the chaplaincy program as an attempt to introduce some values..”

      I’m reading Zuckerman’s Society Without God.  He is discussing how almost godless Sweden and Denmark are happier, healthier, fairer societies without religion.  The idea that we cannot be good without god/s is dispelled by these cheerfully godless societies.

      The Swedes and Danes simply let go of their gods. This was not forced on them by their government or a totalitarian movement, they simply abandoned the broken tool of religion.

      Society didn’t collapse in chaos, stealing, rape and murder.  People who cannot imagine a society without god/s need to have a look at themselves if they think that this is the logical conclusion of godlessness.

    • fml says:

      11:05am | 13/05/11

      Thats a shame, i really like Thor,

      Now there was a god that really knew how to smite his enemies! with such class, power and pizazz!

      Throw in a bit of pillaging and you got a real good time, shame about the current gods, they seem more talk than action, they dont even have a hammer!

    • Richard says:

      10:33am | 13/05/11

      Great article.  Usually I ignore the products of the Murdoch empire, but you have demonstrated exemplary analysis and expressed it excellently.  Religion is a private matter.  If the so-called ‘chaplains’ (and why could there not be Hindu or atheist chaplains?) wish to demonstrate the fundamental moral values of Christendom - forgiveness, charity, tolerance, separation of Church and state, and a practical propensity to whip money changers out of the temple - then no one can complain.  We are, overall, a society conditioned by the Judeo-Christian tradition.  But there is no basis for our taxes to be spent on allowing active evangelising. Thank you.

    • Mrs Jill Stirling says:

      10:35am | 13/05/11

      I find the comments that we should emulate the French secular constitution where it is possible to be jailed for wearing the hijab, a cross or any other religious symbols very interesting.
      Chaplains are supported by the majority of school principals and provide a very welcome service to the school community. They are trained to do just that.  Our school chaplain is also a psychologist. SRI teachers are also trained and want to share their faith and values with the children in their classes. They gave the ultimate good of the child as a priority. Why not allow Christians to share their faith-after all Mr Penberthy you have just done the same thing in your own heartfelt way. I choose to reject your point of view which is what we all have the privilege of doing in our country under the Australian constitution. The freedom of speech and choice is what living in Australia under our constitution is all about.

    • LC says:

      12:33pm | 14/05/11

      “I find the comments that we should emulate the French secular constitution where it is possible to be jailed for wearing the hijab, a cross or any other religious symbols very interesting.”

      Please point out the comments which demanded people be thrown in the clink for wearing hijabs and crosses.

    • Jill Lyall says:

      11:01am | 01/07/11

      Aren’t you a lucky duck that your school chaplain is also a psychologist (although does that mean a Clinical or Registered Psychologist with around 10 years of study, training and supervision, or does it mean a 3 year BA with a psych major which are a dime a dozen?).  However where are the minimum qualifications and training required for these chaplains?

      Why not allow Christians to share their faith and values with children in their classes?  OK, are we going to also allow Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Mormons, Scientologists (I could go on….) to do this also?

      I really feel, reading the Christian’s slant in these responses that their faith is blinding them to fairness, rational thought and even the welfare of our children.

    • St. Michael says:

      10:35am | 13/05/11

      “It is 222 years since the French Revolution established the principle of the separation of church and state.”

      Rather a pity we’re on the Westminster—i.e. English—system out here and, unlike America, the High Court hasn’t ever made that distinction.

    • Ray says:

      10:36am | 13/05/11

      It is apparently fine to turn a blind eye to children being brainwashed at school about man-made climate change dogma and gay rights,  but the informing of children about essential values that flow from our Judaeo- Christian heritage apparently is regarded erroneously as irrelevant when it comes to setting content for a well-rounded education.

    • Dan says:

      11:10am | 13/05/11

      Spot on Ray.

      I object to my kids having to read a book about a kid who has two daddies or feeling guilty about a climate that does whatever it wants to do.

    • fml says:

      11:11am | 13/05/11

      We all come from Africa, so i think we should only be teaching Voodoo in schools.

      The drums, the drums are hypnotizing. Curses, Hexes and spells should be in the curriculum, they are much more useful for smiting your enemies.

    • Missy says:

      11:22am | 13/05/11

      I know right? We all knew what was coming when we let those people of a different colour to us have these “rights” now apparently all and sundry are expecting these “rights”.

    • Stone age liberal says:

      04:30pm | 13/05/11

      And such great values they are. Intolerance of anyone different than yourself and eternal damnation for those who do not do what you say. Climate change may not be occuring, but it may… look up the concept of “the precautionary principle” sometime, and Gay rights, why should someone not have same same rights as anyone else based on sexual preference. Next you will be saying that rights should be limited on gender, or age or color. Oh wait, religious institutes say all those things don’t they. OOPs my mistake. Also please remember that your Judaeo-Christian heritage also includes burning witches at the stake and the mass murder of cultures around the world.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      10:40am | 13/05/11

      For more information on why the National Schools Chaplaincy Program should be abandoned, see http://bit.ly/stopnscp

    • Rich says:

      10:52am | 13/05/11

      Must say Penbo, that this is a poor journalistic article. Immediately you’ve confused a religious education class, with the work of what school chaplains do.
      You’ve also provided a link to Bob Carr, but I see no attack on Chaplains there - perhaps he has goatse’d you.
      Perhaps you could use your journalistic skills and invest some time and go see what Chaplains do, and also speak to principles, teachers, staff and student - and then write your next article on Chaplains.

    • True Believer says:

      10:57am | 13/05/11

      I totally agree with David 7:33am.  Punch is more like “plop” these days. I cannot be bothered with it any more.  It has become a forum for the new aggressive atheists to push their hatred of Christianity and try to force their new “religion” down the throats of anyone who disagrees with them.

      They do it rudely, using often language that has no place in civil discussion and they demand to hold the floor - then kid themselves they are the ones who are having Christianity or “religion” as they so ignorantly call it. forced down their throats.  They even deceive themselves.

      It is a shame, it used to be a place where you could come across intelligent journalism and discussion, but no more.

      I am off to more intelligent and mature web pages, I am fed up with the same ole same ole from the atheist trolls. Get a life.  It is more like kindergarten of the internet in here these days.

      To those who were capable of decent discussion and journalism I wish you well.

    • fml says:

      11:16am | 13/05/11

      Christians have been doing it for the past 2000 years!

      Let me regurgitate some past political slogans which we can use.

      “Time for a change”
      “We will keep the bastards honest”
      “Yes We Can”

      Fortunately you cant smite unbelievers anymore.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      11:26am | 13/05/11

      Pity your retort has nothing to do with the argument itself, but the tone and manner in which your opponents operate.  You have committed the logical fallacies of “ad hominem” and “red herrings” leading toward a “tu Quoque” which excuse you from the debate.

      Good day, sir.

    • True Believer says:

      11:40am | 13/05/11

      @fml
      You represent the juvenile comment I have referred to in my post.

      Your slogans are not Christian they are political as you say, what has that got to do with anything relating to Christianity?

      Unbelievers are not the problem, I know many unbelievers, great people. There is a difference between an unbeliever and a fundamentalist aggressive new atheist. Unbelievers I know are polite, respectful, intelligent and do not try to ram their unbelief down my throat.  They do not have to resort to filthy language and rudeness as many in here seem to need to. They are secure and mature people, not needing to tread on others to make their point.  That sort of “point” is usually pointless.

      You represent not unbelievers but the “aggressive new atheist - be honest with yourself at least.

    • True Believer says:

      11:40am | 13/05/11

      @fml
      You represent the juvenile comment I have referred to in my post.

      Your slogans are not Christian they are political as you say, what has that got to do with anything relating to Christianity?

      Unbelievers are not the problem, I know many unbelievers, great people. There is a difference between an unbeliever and a fundamentalist aggressive new atheist. Unbelievers I know are polite, respectful, intelligent and do not try to ram their unbelief down my throat.  They do not have to resort to filthy language and rudeness as many in here seem to need to. They are secure and mature people, not needing to tread on others to make their point.  That sort of “point” is usually pointless.

      You represent not unbelievers but the “aggressive new atheist - be honest with yourself at least.

    • fml says:

      11:41am | 13/05/11

      hehe your sir name rhymes with Smegg :p

      No not really, i just think its funny when the christian majority paint them selves out to be victims. This country will never be anything but a christian nation.

      True believer asks for intelligent journalism and discussion, then tries to prevent further discussion, after making their point,  by using passive aggressive techniques such as 1) calling names 2) Discrediting the writers integrity then 3) the worst of the lot, the childish 3 year old act of, im right your wrong, you dont deserve to be in my presence im going to leave because im better than you.

      So i do actually think that his tone downgrades the value of his post and i responded in similar manner. Because you can only talk to a toddler like a toddler.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:01pm | 13/05/11

      @TB, I remain unconvinced.  You won’t be able to help commenting.  Under the guise of saving people from their wicked, wicked ways, but really, just looking for a place to feel validated, you will try not to read it for a day or so, before it claws you back in.

      By all means, prove me wrong.  I welcome it.

    • fml says:

      12:11pm | 13/05/11

      True believer,

      this is why i didnt take to your post. You think that any body who disagrees with you is a aggressive athiest and have a hatred of christianity. That is where my issue lies. You put forward no argument other than the typical angry, self-marginalised, poor victimised christian then run off to prevent any further debate.

      I am infact not an athiest, its your self-righteous attitude that groups all people that disagree with you as uncouth trolls who are so much inferior to your intellect that you feel that they dont even warrant being listened to.

      Claim to want civil discussion then you prevent further discussion by saying, im off to another website. Well then, cheerio.

      “be honest with yourself at least.” Well you know me so well, more self-righteous indignant know it all crap.

    • Justin says:

      12:46pm | 13/05/11

      You never cease to amaze me TB. You consistently sit behind that PC of yours attempting to force your views on to others (i.e Euthanasia debate, where you tell all supporters that you personally know Jesus, don’t need faith, and you know that any one interested in excercising their right to die is making a huge mistake and you want to save them from upsetting god.), then have the guff to turn up here deriding atheists for agressively forcing their values on you?

      Rubbish! Atheists are upset when theists decide that their values are correct and atheists are wrong, therefore atheists should be legislatively forced to adhere to the values of the theists, and the children of atheists rescued from eternal damnation via indoctrinaion before it’s too late.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:39pm | 13/05/11

      @TB, you might have a point when you get woken up at 7am on bloody Saturday morning because some Atheist is banging on your door to see if you’ve NOT heard the word of the non-existant Lord yet?

      Until then, well, enjoy the fruits of a free, open, democratic and SECULAR society we have striven towards since ancient times. Your cult no longer has the power to silence the masses and make demands. You’re a few hundred years late for that one wink

    • Reggie says:

      03:17pm | 13/05/11

      True Believer suffers greatly when people disagree with him. (Or her.) He does not come here to discuss or even consider for one moment that he may be wrong and was probably just as close-minded for that extended period of atheism he claims to have suffered.  He is the product of an incomplete epiphany.

      The overpowering product of the discussion I have read, is one of DIVISION, to be displayed in the school-yard as the God-botherers versus the rest, with minor altercations on the fringe. Yes TB, “the debate” is an attempt to infiltrate the refuge of those who choose secularism and much of what I read above is nothing but a well oiled attempt to justify it.

    • Kevin says:

      03:55pm | 13/05/11

      TB you are a hypocrite of the first order.
      You regularly demean people who express opinions contrary to yours by calling them ignorant, childish, juvenile etc..
      The above article is about parents’ freedom to choose a secular (ie religion free) education for their children.
      No-one is arguing that parents shouldn’t be free to send their children to religious schools.  The objection to the funding of Access Ministeries is that it is denying parents who don’t want a religious education for their children the same freedom.
      If you don’t like the Punch don’t read it.

    • Traxster says:

      11:17am | 13/05/11

      It’s not the ‘religion’ one has to worry about
      it’s the ‘religionists’
      they are the problem.

    • Richard says:

      11:23am | 13/05/11

      The problem here is the confusion about Chaplains and Religious Instruction (RI). The main thrust of this article is abusing RI teachers, not Chaplains. There is a significant difference between the two (at least in Qld).

      RI teachers are volunteers (the vast majority are unpaid) who take a lesson each week to teach matters of religion/faith. There are those who know what they’re doing and do it well, and then there are those who don’t have much of an idea about what they’re doing. I, myself, take issue with RI ‘teachers’ who destroy what credibility churches still have.

      Chaplains, on the other hand, are paid - and very well - staff, who have a predefined role as defined by the Australian Government.
      It would be well worth the (very quick and easy to do) effort of reading: http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/NationalSchoolChaplaincyProgram/Pages/nscp_frequently_asked.aspx#dochaplainshave
      This provides an overview of what they can do.
      Specifically (quoted):
      “...chaplains are expected to respect the range of religious views and affiliations, and cultural traditions in the school and the community, and be approachable by students of all faiths. It is not the purpose of chaplaincy services to bring about or encourage commitment to any set of beliefs.”

      Furthermore, school communities have a direct say in the role and appointment of Chaplains (quote from above site):
      “It is a condition of receiving funding under this Program that school communities consult broadly with the school community, particularly parents.
      There must be clear consensus about the demand for and role of a school chaplain.”

      Please actually take the time to know what it is you are talking about. You clearly haven’t done the research or even taking a minute amount of time to understand the role of chaplains. This is simply an expression of personal and unfounded opinion, taking aim at the wrong target.

      There is no excuse for sloppy pieces in such an important place as The Punch.

    • Yuri says:

      02:25pm | 13/05/11

      Well said Richard!

      I was thinking of posting a similar (albeit shorter) reply to all the posters who obviously don’t understand this simple yet fundamental difference, but decided that in the end it would take too long and most of them wouldn’t take notice anyway.

    • fml says:

      03:10pm | 13/05/11

      Did you even read the article before you went on your righteous crusade?

      The author knows the difference, he was saying that there is evidence that the chaplains were over stepping their bounds.

      ““I think it is indefensible that all taxpayers are required to support a program that is gradually becoming church evangelism,” he said.

      “There is enough feedback now to show that quite understandably chaplains cannot confine their activism. Evangelical work is their lifeblood and it’s naïve to expect them not to pursue it around young people. They can’t because of their training. They can’t approach these matters from any other perspective.”

    • Reggie says:

      12:30pm | 15/05/11

      Oh we take notice alright Yuri, it’s a two-pronged attack on secularism in the hope that if one fails there is always the possibility of succeeding with the other. Thus we have Sir Richard attempting to undermine the very premiss of the discussion as sloppy journalism, yet I notice he is conscious of the need for targeting which rather gives the game away.

    • Not Limited By News says:

      11:25am | 13/05/11

      “the rigmarole of explaining to their kids why they’re being excluded from a class most other students are attending”

      Oh Dear! We can’t actually expect a parent to parent now, can we!?

      Given all the other reasons, this is the worst reason to oppose such a scheme, and you’ve essentially undone any good by writing this article by showing you’d rather the easy way out with your child.

    • Capital H-I-M says:

      11:30am | 13/05/11

      It’s fair enough if the atheists want Christians and their values out of public schools. But it certainly would be a great injustice if Christians are then forced to pay, through higher taxes, the increase in abortions, broken families, childcare, drug abuse, crime and welfare that would follow the eradication of Christian morals from our public school system - also, to re-enact Lady Gaga’s Born this way at the school’s “strength through disunity day” has to cost a fair bit. As they say, you can’t be an economic conservative without being a social conservative.

      Remember, if you wanna go on about religions tax free status.donations to church are optional, taxes are enforced through threat of prison. So, if the tax don’t fit, you must acquit.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      11:50am | 13/05/11

      Your misguided sense of loyalty to the Chirstian faith blinkers and distrorts your view of reality.  Your assertion that “atheism leads to abortions, broken families, drug abuse, and crime” is not supported by any evidence (much like the faith itself).

      Unfortunatelty, the evidence is fatal to your argument.  The most secular and least religious countries in the world (including Australia) enjoy low teen pregnacy rates, fewer sexually tranmistted disease, lower divorce rates, lower adultery rates, lower murder rates, lower child abuse rates (is your moral radar blind to the Catholic scandal?), and lower incarceration rates (and the faithful are overrepresented in jails).

      Perhaps you might want to rethink your position?

    • AC says:

      12:16pm | 13/05/11

      To claim that all these issues you’ve mentioned would increase with the elimination of “Christian Morals” is at best ignorant, and at worst dangerous. Morals can be taught from a religious perspective but they’re hardly unique to it. Fact is that there is not link between moral and ethical foundations and religious teaching. It’s just a tool for getting the message across.

      drug abuse, broken families, crime, these things exist as part of society, regardless of how much we try they will always exist. It’s the responsability of all society to fix these issues. So yes Christians should be taxed to halp problems that are caused by those who do not follow their moral code, because im being taxed for those same problems, and my moral code (which is formed by my own upbringing and my own consideration of issues, not dictacted to me by others) doesn’t support theft, drug use or murder any more then the Christian one does.

      And finally, this issue has nothing to do with being anti-religion. It’s about choice. I want my children raised in an environment that doesn’t conflict with the views they’re taught at home. if i’m teaching them about many world views then having them influenced by school base religious elements is doing more damage then good. What option is left to me if I want a secular education for my children, few private schools offer such a thing, and now neither do public schools.

      Finally, Chaplains may provide a vital counselling service to those in their care. But that counselling will always come from a religious background, that is how they are trained. I accept the vital role they can play, young people are at a highly influential stage of development and any influence, especially during times of high stress and worry, impacts them in profound ways. I would much rather this $220 million be spent on anti-bullying and properly trained counsellors. Not Chaplains who counsel as a consequence of their role.

    • Captial H-I-M says:

      01:46pm | 13/05/11

      I guess we’ll see the costs to the taxpayer when the atheist schools come into full swing.

      In my experience, there’s the occasional Christian who goes off the reservation, but almost all the atheists I’ve come across live off the reservation full time.

      But, if you make these anti-religious schools work well and turn out great, freedom loving students, I will be the first to congratulate you.

    • RichardJ says:

      11:32am | 13/05/11

      Thank you for articulating the essence of the issue.

      Chaplains are supposed to be providing ‘pastoral’ care. Notice the word includes ‘pastor’. Pastoral is the well being of one’s spiritual self, the growth of that side of us that is only ever described in religious terms. Therefore only a religiously trained person could provide such care. Therefore the provision of pastoral care chaplains is un-constitutional. The End.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      11:42am | 13/05/11

      Like most Australians I am pretty complacent about religion.

      I tick ‘Cof E’ when asked (like census) and ‘occassionally’ go to church. 84.538% (Give or take 12%) of my friends and associates have no idea what my religion is. If they ask, I will tell them. I’m not in the least ashamed of it, but just don’t seem to have time.

      C of E is a good religion, they don’t harass or annoy you but are there if needed.

      We live in a society whose cultural structure is built on Christian beliefs as its basis and I am 92.486% (Give or take 5.172% ) content with my life style.

      So with our general apathy I will not be in the least suprised to find Australia under another religion within a few years. Well under the thumb where you WILL CONFORM or else. Where your daughters may not get schooling at all.

      Whose boss felt it O.K. to marry a 9 y/o (so it will be O.K. for all.)

      But then again you won’t have to worry about your teen age daughter being got at in the clubs on Saturday night; He husband won’t let her or his other wives out of the house. Not all bad news.

      Our kids might be being exposed to a few debatable idiologies but I think this preferable to compulsory schooling based wholly upon a very one eyed and unforgiving religion. Where 3 R’s take second place to indocrination.

      If the government is doling out money, don’t be suprised which mob has their hand in the cash bin. Just be weary of which of them has your kids ear.

      Print this, put it in an envelope and mark it ‘To be opened 1/1/2025.’  Unless we rally soon,  when you open it I think you will concede I am on the button.

    • fml says:

      03:17pm | 13/05/11

      Ohhhhhh i get it,

      The meteoric rise of islam in this country is the fault of atheists now. I do quite like the way you danced around mentioning the religion, its sort of like covering skat with eau de toilette then serving it to your mother for sunday dinner, seems so delightful when you put that way and it couldn’t possibly be what it looks like.

      I hope your finger is on the button, the one to get you sectioned. Try to keep on topic next time.

    • Ryan says:

      11:42am | 13/05/11

      And yet they are brainwashing oops I mean teaching the unproven, zero evidence of a human marker, religion of Anthropogenic Global Warming in schools at our cost today.

    • Marg says:

      11:42am | 13/05/11

      Other institutions, such as the police force, the armed services and hospitals have chaplains to provide spiritual support when needed.  So what’s the big deal about having chaplains in schools? 

      Chaplains are there for the students who want counsel, comfort or support from that person.  Chaplains are usually upfront about their beliefs, but know that they are not in school to talk about their beliefs, unsolicited. They are also flexible and sensitive when dealing with students who hold to different beliefs. 

      The chaplain is also surrounded by other school staff and works with them; he or she is not an unaccountable, lone ranger with a personal agenda.

      No one is concerned that school counsellors are enforcing their personal values on unwitting students. And their beliefs and philosophies may be more covert (and thus more difficult to discuss and refute) than those of the chaplain. 

      David Penberthy states that the “entire basis of [the chaplain’s] work is theological”.  This is simply not correct.  I know several chaplains.  All of them are trained as counsellors.  This is an important basis of their training. And yes, part of their training includes theology; that’s why they’re chaplains and not simply counsellors

      I am personally aware that several (non-church) school principals in my area are very appreciative of the work the chaplains do in their schools.

      If someone has a problem with the religion of the chaplain, they can just direct their child to go to the school counsellor instead of the chaplain if the child needs extra help.  Simple.

    • God says:

      11:46am | 13/05/11

      ““The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.”

      The Bible

    • RichardJ says:

      12:03pm | 13/05/11

      The Bible also says that those who say “you fool” are in danger of hell fire.

      Internally consistant, NOT.

    • Jon says:

      12:16pm | 13/05/11

      Which is God says that, is it Horus, Osirus, Aten, Ra, Mithra, Tammuz, Zoroaster, Dionysus, Zeus, Krishna, Yahweh,  Christ, Allah et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

      “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” Isaac Asimov

    • I love Him. says:

      12:44pm | 13/05/11

      There is a subtle difference between calling someone ‘fool’ and knowing what foolish behaviour is.

    • christine m. says:

      11:48am | 13/05/11

      God, I know this is shallow - but I read that Madcap Julia asked “does my bum look big in this Chaplain Policy?”  I’ve been away - it’s probably old news.  God, oh God, I laughed.

    • Talon says:

      11:53am | 13/05/11

      Would you allow a Scientologist Paster to say anything to your children in the school classroom?  No and you should not.  We do not need weak minded people poisoning your childs mind with their fantasies.  Relying on religion for your wellbeing weakens the mind and spirit.

      Spirituality provides a balance in a person from which they can grow and find the difference between right and wrong or fantasy and fact themselves.  Religion on the other hand handicaps you to a rigid belief.  Right, wrong, fact and fiction in religion is skewed to self important interpretation.

      Does religious justified war and revenge killings sound right to you?  Of course not.  Would you have an organisation that turns a blind eye to act of extreme cruelty to youths and believes that if sins are confessed (without true remorse) then they are forgiven, teaching your children their beliefs?

      The bible is a teaching tool (fictional book of fables) for a moral way of life.  It does not translate too well into religion or the church.  Keep them out of our schools.  Julia should be ashamed of forcing the church on our kids.

      $222 million could be better spent changing the school system to have employable young persons leaving school.  This does not mean going through year 12 but having relevant training in a chosen field of employment.  The excuse of importing a skilled workforce from overseas would then go out the window.  We can not count on them getting it right in the near future however.

    • Gawd says:

      11:54am | 13/05/11

      “But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” - Matthew 5:22

      The Bible.

    • Whitney McCarthy-Cole says:

      12:00pm | 13/05/11

      As a secondary school teacher, I am only too aware of the need for students to have a range of positive adult influences, one of whom is not responsible for either their discipline or their assessment.  The role of a school Chaplain is not to proselytise.  Indeed they are employed to listen, and any time spent in influencing the religious views of an individual is counter-productive.  Perhaps the Australian public would prefer a psychologist in each school.  I assure you, the cost to the tax-payer would be far more, but their para-medical advice would be free of religion.  Instead of feelinf lost, a student can instead worry that they are mentally ill (the popular perception of why people see counsellors or psychologists.  Adolescent problems are NEVER trivial to the sufferer, and chaplains provide a compassionate influence whose experiences might provide relief.  Frankly the only way to avoid future leadership which doesn’t disappoint, is to ensure that this generation finishes school with a sense of self-belief and confidence.  Don’t you think you were worth the money when you were at school?

    • Talon says:

      12:33pm | 13/05/11

      Self belief and confidence is best achieved by a psychologist youth worker not a religiouse authority figure.  They will not just listen as you can not inspire self belief without holding up personal beliefs as an example and the church is their direction not mine.  Why polute the role of a youth worker already employed at schools with religion?

    • Shane from Melbourne says:

      12:04pm | 13/05/11

      222 million would be better spent on science and maths teaching. Australian students aren’t exactly shining in those two vital areas…..

    • Shane Coghlan says:

      12:04pm | 13/05/11

      Amen Penbo. The issue is not on whether God exists but whether people should be confined to the social values written in The Bible and whether taxpayers should foot the bill in order for them to conduct their activities.

      Forcing scripture on children who simply don’t have the ability to evaluate the claims of the text are morally apprehensible and i cannot believe this is being supported by both our major parties.

    • Tim says:

      12:17pm | 13/05/11

      Think about it - the Chaplaincy Program was introduced by the Howard government and is being continued by a Labor Prime Minister who doesn’t believe in God.  The program must be working.

    • michaelmann says:

      12:22pm | 13/05/11

      No problems, Dave and Bob. You can hook up with the humanist and atheist organisations to do breakfast clubs in schools for kids whose parents don’t give them breakfast.

      Or to show up to parents homes and hospitals to give them counselling or help organise a funeral when their child is sick or dead.

      Or brief the case worker when you have to call family services because a student has sat in your office telling you their dad rapes them every few nights.

      Or take them down to the local doctor to get their self-harm wounds inspected and new dressings applied.

      How about instead of asking a former premier or editor what he thinks…...ask the principals. And not the minority who dislike their chaplain on their own religious grounds. Ask them what difference a chaplain in their school makes. I think you might find the majority of them are in favour of it and would defend it.

    • marley says:

      02:23pm | 13/05/11

      I’m sure chaplains do very good work. But a trained counsellor would do pretty much the same in most of the situations you’ve described.  Why make this sort of position a religious monopoly?

    • Nick says:

      11:08pm | 13/05/11

      The government only partially funds chaplaincy programs in schools, a lot of money is also raised by local chaplaincy committees and church volunteers.  Name for me the non-church affiliated organistions that have put their hands up to do what the chaplaincy program has done on the current scale it is being delivered. 

      Of all the schools I’ve worked in, the chaplains have been largely loved by the students and appreciated by the staff. 

      To those saying these services should be delivered by qualified counsellors, the reality is there are not enough qualified counsellors, nor enough funding, to give children access on the scale they have access to school chaplains.  Nor does every child accessing chaplains for support through tough times require ongoing therapeutic intervention.  Thankfully we have chaplains to recognise when they do and refer on.

    • nossy says:

      12:27pm | 13/05/11

      I remember when at school we had a Reverend Evans give us “Scripture” - one day the silly old fart tried to tell us the stars were angels ! I burst out laughing and couldnt stop and ended up getting six of the best from the Principal - water off a ducks back I am afraid ! Later on the Reverend Evans got into very hot water when he dumped his pregnant unmarried daughter at the local rubbish tip in disgust - really set an example there Rev ! hahahahh

    • Thanks Bob says:

      12:31pm | 13/05/11

      What is the difference between Chaplaincy and Pakistani Madrassas? What will stop the other religions to ask for their Immams, Monks, or Priests to be put into those schools? We talk about multi-culture but we act by forcing chaplaincy. I am sure the christian fanatics will fight to death on this issue but any moral person understands why government and churches should remain separate.

    • Jim (remember him?) says:

      12:34pm | 13/05/11

      One thing that keeps scripture in the schools is that even the most atheistic of teachers quite likes to have a coffee break in the staffroom while the godbotherers take the kids off their hands for 40 minutes.

    • Talon says:

      12:42pm | 13/05/11

      The proof of our intent is in our actions and their results.  There you go, science theory is good for something (proof of an action is seen in its results).

      The preference system of governing needs to be removed in Australia as well.  The independents are not happy with juliar Gilliard so support needs to be found within another minority.  Imagine what our country would be like if the religious party kept the government in power.  OMG what a disaster.  The church would hold power over the state.

    • fml says:

      03:07pm | 13/05/11

      And the mad monk would be the sane voice of the secular people?

    • Melleeringneck says:

      12:44pm | 13/05/11

      Carr should go back to living on his huge pension and keeping his mouth shut.
      He ran NSW into the ground and now he wants to push his communist anti religious ethos down our throats.

    • Tim says:

      12:47pm | 13/05/11

      You’re spot on Penbo but why stop there? Churches should be banned from providing counselling services, in home aged care and aged care facilities, alcohol recovery services, crisis care, hospitals, employment placement services, in fact anything where they have the opportunity to come into contact with anyone. I’m sure the government has the money to provide these services and could do a much better job.
      Sarcasm aside, your article seems to be based on the assumption that chaplains are prosletysing young people a la the Spanish conquestadores. This in turn seems to be based on the assumption that the government is too uncompetent to have put regulations in place to ensure that they are actually providing support services to students who are in need of them. So, do you have any substantiating evidence that this is the case, and that young children are being unwittingly and unwantedly bible-bashed? Perhaps speaking to chaplains about what they do; to principals who have chaplains in their schools, and to students about how they feel about chaplains in their schools would have been a better place to start.

    • Kika says:

      01:29pm | 13/05/11

      Maybe he could even start by asking his own daughter what she actually learned in class!

    • macroeconomist says:

      12:55pm | 13/05/11

      The separation of church and state is more about protecting freedom of worship from the influence of the state eg:
      - Chinese communists appointing “approved” Bishops
      - Legislating a state religion (such as the UK)
      - Discriminating against religious minorities (a UK monarch cannot be catholic - see the controversy over Tony Blair’s conversion to Catholicism)

      On Chaplaincy and religion in schools:
      - Public does not have to mean secular or value neutral.  For a successful multicultural society, there is no reason why a diversity of faiths (including the non-religion religion that is atheism) cannot be accommodated.
      - Why is there is an issue with religious ethics but not with secular ethics -> is not secular ethics an attempt to inculcate atheistic values?

    • marley says:

      02:07pm | 13/05/11

      No, secular ethics is not an attempt to inculcate atheistic values, secularism is an attempt to inculcate humanistic values.  You know, the core values which both believers and non-believers consider to be important - fairness, generosity, honesty, compassion, tolerance.

      Atheism is simply the non-belief in god. lt isn’t a philosophical or moral code.  Humanism is. 

      because atheism isn’t a religious or philosophical system, and therefore it has no values. Atheism is simply an absence of belief in god, or a belief that there is no god.  Nothing more.

    • Daniel says:

      12:55pm | 13/05/11

      God i hate religion!!

      Oops! Spot the blasphemony in THAT comment!

    • Paul says:

      01:04pm | 13/05/11

      As a theist and a Christian, I think that the amount of money being spent is certainly goes a bit far. The points raised however are certainly valid and there should be both a debate on exactly what is in and what is out of State funded religious instruction. I do think that throwing it out altogether is not the way to go because there will always be world views being presented at school and pre-dominantly the materialistic / naturalistic world view is presented and having some religious teaching does something to balance out this bias.

      In defense of Christian teaching getting the upper hand-out is concerned the following. Jesus himself was a supporter of the separation of Church and State, as he said “give to Cesar that which is Cesar’s and give to God that which is God”. He also said “My kingdom is not of this world”. Therefore what we view as freedoms in the West actually came from Christian beliefs and what I would call “true Christianity” supports these things. Catholicism however departed significantly from “true Christianity” and the Christian churches are in the process of getting back to what Jesus intended to institute. This is a process of re-discovery and I welcome the discussion of where Christianity has gone wrong.

      Therefore I think some education of Christian teachers needs to take case. How can those who teach actually teach if what they have learnt themselves is lacking. Furthermore, should 19th century teaching techniques be used this century.

    • John says:

      01:04pm | 13/05/11

      French Revolution had a similar personality to Bolshevism Communism. They both hated the church and the royal family’s, they both executed them. What interesting in the french revolution priests were slaughtered.  “Later, following the upheaval of the French Revolution, communism emerged as a political doctrine” Wiki. Whats funny also, Paris became the first test bed for communism. If you look at the french youth today them seem to be politically indoctrinated into communism and far-left ideals. So in a sense, anti-christianity is usually comes from communist mentality’s and the push for atheism to over come christianity, comes from marxist communist mentality’s. This of course after the mass slaughter of 40 000 000 Russians by the hands of the cold blooded, godless, savage, atheist evolutionary Darwinist, led to this cold blooded calculating mass crimes. In a sense Communism is anti-European, it’s a foreign ideology that wishes to destroy Europe, enslave it and over come it, with it’s godless ways and decentant ways.

    • Tony says:

      01:09pm | 13/05/11

      Christianity doesn’t teach that believing in God makes you a ‘good person’. Maybe you needed some of those scripture lessons before you commented?

      Fact is though, if you are an atheist then there is no point in even considering whether you are a ‘good person’ or not. At the point of death it all ceases to matter to you and everyone else. So what is the point?

      Despite that, Chaplains shouldn’t be funded by government. Government funding simply leads to government control.

    • monkeytypist says:

      01:30pm | 13/05/11

      @Tony
      “At the point of death it all ceases to matter to you and everyone else.  So what’s the point?”

      Don’t be so morbid Tony!  I and many of my fellow atheists are quite happy with knowing that our existence is just that - existence - and there’s nothing beyond it.  Every moment, every breath, every tiny thought and sensory perception, is what we get out of life.  It “matters” because it’s all there is.  Life’s not a dress rehearsal!

      I care about my loved ones - and about other human beings - because that’s part of who I am.

      Even though I won’t be around to see what life will be like in 200 years’ time, that doesn’t mean I don’t care about it.  I do want to leave a better future for my loved ones, because that’s a natural human instinct - shared by many other animals who care for their offspring and their family, without the need for holy books of any sort.

      I just don’t think that all that’s stopping me from being a vicious, murdering, psychopath is the teachings of some invisible spirit.  What’s that about religion being optimistic again??

      Sometimes people do good things, and sometimes they do bad things, but either way it comes from within them (specifically their brains).  And what I do matters now because my conscious life is meaningful to me every moment that I perceive it.

    • Sickemrex says:

      01:53pm | 14/05/11

      @ monkeytypist

      That’s just kooky talk!

    • Trent says:

      01:10pm | 13/05/11

      With the increase in violence, animal cruelty, drugs and broken homes in society, I’d rather see MORE chaplains sent into the schools. Remember, Atheism teaches everyone to look after themselves to the detriment of others. Christianity teaches us to love others before yourself. School principals have overwhelmingly supported the school chaplaincy program.

    • Kika says:

      01:33pm | 13/05/11

      Tell me about it. My parents recently had their cars vandalised one late afternoon (yes, while the sun was still up). We live in such a high moral secular country, don’t we?

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:34pm | 13/05/11

      I agree Trent, no-one ever started a war or genocide over a religion!

      ...oh…wait….

    • fml says:

      05:02pm | 13/05/11

      “Atheism teaches everyone to look after themselves to the detriment of others”

      Hang on, when did atheists bring out a book? who wrote it?

    • Sickemrex says:

      01:56pm | 14/05/11

      @ fml

      It’s called the Puppy-kicking cranky-bum Atheist Manifesto.  I was planning to doorknock your suburb wit copies of it tomorrow.

      Could the Christians please stop linking the non-existant spiralling crime wave with atheists?  Ta

    • Dale Head says:

      01:11pm | 13/05/11

      Brilliant article. Hope the pollies read it and act.

    • Kika says:

      01:14pm | 13/05/11

      What I don’t understand is why this is such an issue… now?. I went to a state school in the 90’s and I received RE instruction once a week. I enjoyed my classes because that was the only involvement I had with religion. My Mum told us that we can believe in God if we like, but told us that she wasn’t sure. This was shocking to me at first, because I assumed that if adults tell me God is real then ALL adults believe that because ALL adults are right all the time. By my own choice I do believe in God and am thankful for the lovely lady from the local church who dedicated her time to teaching us kids about God and sharing her powerful faith. It was and still is inspring.

      However, David, tell me this… if you are so vehemently against your child receiving religious instruction at her state school why did you allow her to continue?
      You said..
      “They have to choose between the rigmarole of explaining to their kids why they’re being excluded from a class most other students are attending – or just shrugging their shoulders and letting their kids go anyway, even if they think it’s a meaningless waste of time”

      Since you are on the atheist high moral ground about this, wouldn’t you say that it’s morally bankrupt to teach your daughter just to go along with the crowd rather than standing up for what she believes in? This is an important lesson to learn. One day she’ll be a teenager and encouraged by way of peer pressure to do whatever the other kids are doing. Wouldn’t it have been a good example to show her first hand that sometimes it’s good to say no and to do what is right and what she believes in?

      Whilst I agree that if you really passionately believe that your child should have an education in religion that you should send them to a religious school, I have no issue with religious education in state schools. And if you passionately believe that you don’t want your child to go along, you can always opt out. It’s easy.

    • Scott says:

      01:16pm | 13/05/11

      The Chaplaincy Program is a 222 million votes grab pure and simple. Introduced by Howard, a believer, now continued by Gillard an atheist. Why does she continue with the funding? There is no conviction by Gillard on this issue.

      If a chaplain is instructed not to “preach” to the children, what is the point of having them there? Cannot a qualified counsellor do the same job?

      Chaplains are contracted to schools by Christian organisations. I grew up in a Christian home and I can unequivocally tell you that converting non-believers was well up there on the list of priorities, this will undoubtedly include organisations such as Scripture Union, the largest employer of school chaplains in Australia. This is from their website:

      Aims & Beliefs

      Working with the churches, Scripture Union aims:

      a) to make God’s Good News known to children, young
      people and families

      and

      b) to encourage people of all ages to meet God daily through
      the Bible and prayer

      There is the aim in black and white. For my children such an aim is unwanted and ill-conceived. It is conversion for the masses, always has been, read your Bible, it’s all there.

      No amount of talking will convince me that a chaplain will not come from this viewpoint. It is what they believe.

      Religion is a personal issue, not a State issue.

      Children are vulnerable, the Program is flawed.

    • John says:

      01:30pm | 13/05/11

      Anti-Christianity is Marxism. Atheism is a Marxist religion. Marxism lead to most cold blooded animistic regimes on this planet. The youth today are being indoctrinated to HATE christianity, by Marxist intellectuals. It’s a shame that our lying media are fronts for International Marxism incorporated. Read up on the Frankfurt school, Cultural Marxism and Critical Theory. They wish to destroy the foundations of the WEST, Christianity, family, nations and the tribes. It’s why they push Multiculturalism in the west, push millions of immigrants to flood into the US, Europe, promote hundreds of sexuality’s, feminism, anti-white sentiment, promote atheism, empowerment of minority’s, promote dumbing down of the population, divide and conqueror. It’s an attack on the WEST, Westerns need to wake up. They want to take over the WEST, and rule like like one party, one class system. Once they are in power, expect Bolshevism treatment.

    • Jessie says:

      01:56pm | 13/05/11

      And eventually there will be more Muslims in the world than Christians because Atheism wiped them out. Then atheists will have the challenge about whether to accept their Islamic overlords or ‘tolerate’ them because of multiculturalism. And I have a safe bet the Muslims won’t tolerate their atheism as well.

    • John says:

      02:19pm | 13/05/11

      What ever the case, Christianity’s have been targeted first. In battle, you target the strongest force first, then charge the weak ones. empowering Muslims and other minority’s and allowing them flood into the west, benefits the marxist agenda against the over throw of the white christian west in their own country’s. Multiculturalism is a weapon used against the white christian west to weaken and to eventually destroy them.

    • fml says:

      05:05pm | 13/05/11

      @John,

      You shouldnt believe everything you read in books…

    • Sickemrex says:

      02:03pm | 14/05/11

      @ John.

      I can assure you I don’t hate Christianity.  I find all religions very interesting from a sociological and historical perspective.

      What are these hundreds of sexualities of which you speak?  Who are this “they”?

    • Sickemrex says:

      02:03pm | 14/05/11

      @ John.

      I can assure you I don’t hate Christianity.  I find all religions very interesting from a sociological and historical perspective.

      What are these hundreds of sexualities of which you speak?  Who are this “they”?

    • John says:

      03:42pm | 14/05/11

      I’m not saying you hate christianity, and not stating that Atheism is directly related to Marxism, maybe I’ve push too forward on that. But what I’m saying that this atheist indoctrination, anti-christianity indoctrination, seems to be coming from the left, which is rooted with in the confines of Marxism. They are the people who founded Communism in Russia, and immigrated to the US, UK and Europe and spread their vile decadent leftist disease through out university campus’s, the media and eventually penetrated the government. They are up rooting the western culture so that their ideals are enforced on the west, then taking the youth through their brainwashing lines of school and the media. Good example, of this is political correctness, looking at such nations as the UK and Sweden are perfect examples of this, the fall of NAZI Germany, open the door way to the far-left, who are hell bent on destroying the old Europe which they despise the most. Christianity, Family, the tribe must be destroyed in their eyes.

      Enforced mass immigration, enforced political correctness, and enforced censorship of speech are their legacy’s. Western Democracy are just words, under that is a heap of liars, deceivers who manipulate society so they can rule and take over society. Hundreds of sexuality’s, i mean, is that the old christian Europe, didn’t market homosexuality, bisexuality they didn’t have sex shops and sex joints on main streets. But today, you have sex everywhere, and i believe this is because of HATRED these people have for christianity.

      That they fund, fuel and market this sexualisation of west. Lenin, once stated that he wanted Russian people to be taught like monkeys and dogs, for the people be like robots to him. Today, you have this Marxist propaganda telling the youth of west to self-destruct with spiral of social, cultural and moral decay. You esstionally have a consciousness of self-destruction.

    • Kate says:

      01:33pm | 13/05/11

      I taught in a small, remote, country P-12 school for 5 years. During my 4th year staff were informed that we would be voting on whether we agreed to employ a chaplain at our school for 2 days a week. The motion was carried and the chaplain began a few months later. He is a reformed drug and alcohol abuser who used to shear for a living. Given that our school had a small farm run by the students, this skill proved handy, as he was able to give instruction to them in this area.
      At no time did he try to impart of influence the studenents in Christianity. Instead he spent a lrage amount of time with disruptive kids who ahd been removed from the classrooms, playing games with the younger children who often had noone to play with at recess and lunch times and being and lending a hand in the Prep and Year 1 classes, where an extra pair of eyes, ears and hands is absolutley invaluable.
      I think the name ‘Chaplain’ needs a re-think, but their position in a school that lacks resources such as councellors is very important and takes some of the load off staff who can then concentrate on teaching.

    • grannie annie says:

      05:50pm | 13/05/11

      That is what chaplains actually DO!! Good on you for setting everyone straight on the role of chaplains in schools. They certainly don’t have time to preach ...........

    • Wes says:

      01:35pm | 13/05/11

      Dare I be so bold as to say that Mr Carrs comment “some familiarity with the Bible” would speak for 95% of the population in that they don’t actually know what the Bible says as they have only read or heard excerpts at various events (e.g. weddings, funerals). If you read the full biblical picture I think you will see that in God’s eyes we are all bad and that even in turning to God through Christs death doesn’t make us “Good people”.

      We have the ability to do good but will always be tarnished by our sinful nature and personal longing to do our own thing and go our own way. The Bible is all about Bad Guys & Jesus. Understand it any other way and IMO you’ve gone astray.

      As for the actual topic of government funded chaplaincy.. I am a fence sitter. I believe whole heartedly that God’s word and message of hope and reconcilliation should be shared to all who have open ears. However, in a secular society I feel we are also compelled to respect the decisions of our government and the people we elect into these positions of power.

    • fairsfair says:

      01:52pm | 13/05/11

      “Parents who have selected a secular education for their children”

      Yeah right. People send their kids to a state school either because they are open to their children gaining a community education or they can’t afford a private school. If you wanted control over your child’s education you would pay to put them in an independent school.

      The state school system is for all Australians. It seeks to supply a standard education to children from all walks of life. It is very accommodating to minority groups and teaches the history and politics of a country that is (like it or not!) a country that is influenced by and built upon the notions of Christianity.

      I am an athiest, but I see no problem with the governement investing in a program that allows the many Christian children around us access to spiritual guidance in the event their parents are not able to gather the funds to send them to a christian school.

      Visitation to this chaplain is voluntary and those people and parents who are dead against it can make sure their child visits the regular guidance councillor. Parents who are so against Christianity seem to forget that their child is an individual. They are so hell bent on insuring that their child becomes the mirror image of themselves they are frightened to the core that outside influences will “get to them”. Please! Your child has just as much right to seek out christianity as you do to poo poo it. They need an opposing opinion to make their own decisions.

      This is just so rediculous. As an athiest I would have no issue with my child visiting a christian chaplain.

    • Jasmine Morey says:

      01:58pm | 13/05/11

      The chaplains play multiple roles within the school, not just teaching about God. They do run specific workshops for students who have already identified themselves as Christian (which is totally optional), but they are also there to support students with the struggles that are associated with adolescence. I don’t believe my view is biased as i used to DESPISE christian education but when i became a christian i realised that these people are here to support students like myself within a school environment. We have had many chaplains start and leave our school as they didn’t receive the support they needed, and were paid so POORLY for the type of work they do!

    • Frank says:

      02:01pm | 13/05/11

      Jesus is a myth. All the bible stories are taken from other religions (egypt, greece and babylon). Christmas and Easter are pagan festivals. Why are you all wasting your time talking about this still?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTrQYkxu1zA

      Counseling for kids, yeah, sounds good. But god just flat out does not exist. What bloody year is this?

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      02:50pm | 13/05/11

      Hey Frank.
      I’ll tell you what year it is ,in fact YOU Frank live in the year of our Lord 2011 AD. Why is that.
      And why is the Lords prayer said at the begining of parliament, even Uncle bob and gilly have to stand.
      And the greatest Super power the U.S.A has printed on its currency IN GOD WE TRUST.
      So you see there is Nothing wrong with teaching the word of God, You have every right to state your opinion, but you should not deny people the right to believe or not believe. We all have a choice.

    • Birdy says:

      02:14pm | 13/05/11

      David Penberthy is expressing his opinion, stemming from his own perceptions, perspectives and bias. He himself tells us he is an atheist.

      He does not speak from knowledge. Anyone who has actual experience with the Chaplaincy program knows and understands that the Chaplains are actually forbidden from mentioning God or incorporating God into what they do with students. They do display their own Christian values through their actions and the way they express themselves- but there is no explicit mention of God. If you are bothered by people being kind then really one wonders what type of character you have yourself, or as a parent, what kind of character you want your child to have?

      Our children and youth are under ever-increasing pressure- we have sexualisation of young girls, youth violence, cyberbullying, broken homes, depression….the list goes on. The Chaplaincy program was introduced to provide support for students- but also for schools. As an educator, I am painfully aware of the increased social role of schools and the challenges schools face. Teachers understand the significance of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs- to expect students to focus and learn you need to meet their social needs. It is not possible for teachers to be able to act in a surrogate role as counsellors, chaplains and the like.

      Chaplains stand in the gap. They support, not only the students, but also their families. They organise activities and provide access to community programs and services [not based on religion] to meet the needs present.

      Those who know and understand the Chaplain program support it. Those who disparage it on religious grounds speak from ignorance and fear. They should be ashamed that their own prejudices mean they would prefer students go without much-needed support. The program does not involve the spreading of religion, only kindness.

    • DC says:

      03:02pm | 13/05/11

      “Those who know and understand the Chaplain program support it…the program does not involve the spreading of religion, only kindness”.

      Riiiiight.  Did you even read the article?

      I suspect not.

    • Warren says:

      08:05am | 14/05/11

      Birdy, you are 100% right. Chaplains’ are invaluable in the schooling system. This is truly some shameful reporting on the part of David Penberthy and even more shameful comments from others on this forum. I challenge these people to go into schools and actually see what it is that chaplains do. If they do they will return with their tail between their legs realising how foolish they have been.  My guess is that they won’t; they will continue to live in ignorance giving comments on things they know nothing about.

    • Shoes says:

      09:45am | 14/05/11

      I agree completely with Birdy. Chaplaincy is a excellent program and it would be a real tragedy for students to lose it.
      @DC - I read the article as I’m sure Birdy did also, and David’s obviously got no real idea of what chaplains really do in schools. I’ve been in schools where chaplains work and I’m current teaching in a school where we don’t have a Chaplain. I wish we did have a Chaplain b/c there are so many kids with social issues and families in need of support. A chaplain provides the pastoral care that is needed for these types of situations.

    • anonymous says:

      02:23pm | 13/05/11

      Having had as a 9 year old, a cathartic experience at the country Metho church, where I was emotionally bludgeoned to confess my ‘sins’, of which I knew nothing, and therefore presumed I was one of the ‘unclean’ children, not like those around me, who I saw through the blurred vision of ‘guilty’ tears, as of the ‘clean’ variety, having been purified somehow. I didn’t fit. It was obvious because of their clean clothes and tidy appearance.  I had not, and was not. I was told not to ever consume alcohol. I was given a New Testament forefronted by the minister, paraphrasing, ‘remember your decision this day….” I couldn’t understand the rest. It was in fact a ‘sign the pledge’ reward. I broke that pledge, 5 years later. I’ve broken it since almost every day. I’m going to give up the drink, at least heavy drinking, It’s ok to have a few isn’t it,  just don’t go overboard. Haven’t been back to church, only sometimes when I can see there’s no one there, just sit, and maybe rob the poor box on the way out, and steal the ornaments. Some of that silver is worth a few drinks. Religion is great. It’s like family for orphans. It should be taught in schools, but not forced, kids can fill the inkwells, or dig out the weeds in the garden, pick up papers, etc.

    • Ikki says:

      03:53am | 14/05/11

      I’m gunna pray for you A. You could end up being a great Chaplain like the sheep shearer in Kate’s post instead of being trapped under all that baggage. xx

    • DC says:

      02:41pm | 13/05/11

      I remember religious education when I was at primary school in the 1970’s.  I was told that anyone who wasn’t married was living in sin.  The next time I saw my dad (my parents were divorced), I told him that he was going to hell because he was living in sin because he wasn’t married to the woman he now lived with.  Not the kind of words - nor beliefs - he expected to come from an 8 year old.

      Years later, I think back and I can see the hypocrisy of many of those involved in Church and what they force onto others.

      We have priests who think they can sexually molest children, and that is acceptable and not breaking their vow of celibacy, and yet, they look down upon you and curse you to hell if you’re “living in sin”.

      We have a Pope who actively tried to cover up for priests who sexually molested children - and that’s ok.

      Quite frankly, if you want to believe in religion, that’s fine.  I have no problem with that.

      I do however have a problem with the hypocrites who condemn others based on their religious beliefs, and yet, believe they are somehow above it all and can do whatever they want.

      Religion should be kept out of the public school system.

      If the parents of kids want their children to follow religion, that’s fine - that can be taught at home.

    • Shane from Melbourne says:

      02:54pm | 13/05/11

      I know- let’s have a subject called Political Studies in school. It can be run by the ALP or Liberal Party developmental team and they can teach them all about Liberal Party or ALP policies (just not the other side). Remember folks, if you get them while they are young, they are yours for life.

    • KRS1 says:

      02:54pm | 13/05/11

      another poorly researched and ignorant throw-away article on “the punch”.

      ” I didn’t think scripture classes would necessarily be a bad thing, provided they served as a generalised kind of religious education which also provided some familiarity with the Bible.
      My presumption was wrong. Most of what was taught in these classes was absurd, framed around the conceited dogma that it is impossible to become a good person unless you believe in God, and choose the right God to believe in.”

      and then

      “Another flaw with the system is that the chaplains are laughably instructed to avoid sermonising but to talk in general terms about concepts such as kindness and charity and issues such as bereavement.”

      So which one do you want?

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      03:02pm | 13/05/11

      *sigh*

      Atheists tell you constantly that this is always the goal of religion.  No one listens, or tells us we’re being bitter and cynical.  And it happens, again and again and again. 

      It’s a central tenant of their religion!  They’re not just going to ignore it!

    • Micky G says:

      03:21pm | 13/05/11

      I am an atheist yet I do not object to my children learning the fundamentals of religion so they are have more chance of making an informed decision about their beliefs when they are older. My two grade 5’s came home a couple of weeks ago quite distressed because the religious education teacher was describing in detail how Jesus was “stabbed in the side with a spear and it was twisted to hurt him and he was screaming in agony” and so forth…I am not terribly happy with my tax dollar contributing to this “education”. Also when my grade 7 daughter last year asked the school principal why they cant learn ‘comparative religion’ because she wanted to learn the differences in beliefs between the different religions which are causing so much unrest in the world, she was told that it is not allowed. Again, not much satisfaction for my tax dollar at the moment…

    • robert says:

      04:07pm | 13/05/11

      no problem re chaplains in schools so long as the government pays for atheists counselling in schools too

    • Scumbag says:

      04:28pm | 13/05/11

      It is offensive. What happened to the separation of powers, in this instance, between ‘the church’, and the state. The proposal here has deliberately been construed as ambiguous, in the face of expected opposition. Unlike yesteryear, ‘religious instruction’ was a voluntary proposition, approved by parents. Today’s proponents, have a different agenda, one of evangilism, for indoctrination of young minds. This must be stopped. Now. No further questions, Your Honour.

    • chez says:

      04:29pm | 13/05/11

      Religious education is separate from the chaplaincy program. Often chaplains take RE but it can also be taken by approved volunteers.  I work in a low socio economic state school and watch the wonderful work chaplains do on a daily basis with upset students, students and their families in times of need and grief and running a breakfast club with the full support of the principal and teachers.  Going to see a chaplain is completely voluntary. Perhaps you should go and talk to your local chaplain and see what they do each day.  There are very strict guidelines on how chaplains work. Their wonderful work is recognized in most local communities who assist in raising additional funds.

    • Your name:Robert says:

      10:59pm | 13/05/11

      Well then lets have atheist counsellors

    • Reggie says:

      03:13pm | 14/05/11

      That should generate some interesting confrontations and startling headlines.. smile

      BIBLE-BASHER throws the book at ATHEIST.

    • Scott says:

      04:31pm | 13/05/11

      Blessed are the children for they are born sinners. If we don’t indoctrinate these poor, sweet, innocent little darlings early they might get run over by a bus and their souls will BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. Those evil little bastards, we must save them.

    • El Cabot says:

      05:11pm | 13/05/11

      Thousands were killed during the French revolution, not only did they separate their heads from their bodies. they separated them from their God. Britain was also on the verge of revolution at the same time but was saved from the horrors of Madam Guillotine by a great preacher who turned the peoples heads back to the one true GOD. The Christian FAITH is always under attack within and without by bigots, religious and otherwise.
      By the way, school chaplains do NOT preach religion or the Christian faith in their role in schools!

    • R says:

      05:12pm | 13/05/11

      The author has clearly never worked in a public school with a chaplain. I do and it is a far cry from what he has depicted. Chaplains do not run around and impose religious dogma on students. It is the students’ choice to visit the chaplains and those that do truly appreciate the support they can receive from them. Chez’s comment is on the mark.

    • Kathy says:

      05:44pm | 13/05/11

      Absolutely right R.  I work at a public primary school, we have a wonderful chaplain, or pastoral support worker as she is called.  There is a “no proselytising” rule, ie no preaching or even mentioning God or Jesus.  Her role is to counsel kids who are having difficulties at home or at school.  She runs clubs at lunch time, cooks pancake breakfasts, assists with the Peer Support program (where students help & support each other in the yard, watch out for bullying etc), helps the kids on Student Council etc etc.  She has organised a Year 7 Den where the older children can go & hang out at lunchtime…in other words she is, at 26, a surrogate big sister & the students adore her!  Please David, visit your local school sometime & reacquaint yourself with what is happening there, you will be surprised.

    • Lance says:

      05:24pm | 13/05/11

      Pretty clear by these comments that most of you know very little about what actually goes on in schools.  The chaplans actually provide a very important non religious service that was almost totally lacking in schools before.  They are not actually there to push religion!  Should we now also ban any teachers who are actively religious too?

    • Scott says:

      06:05pm | 13/05/11

      What the Program is about and what chaplain’s employer (and no I don’t mean the school I mean their actual employer) is about are contradictory to say the least.

      Have you even looked at Union Scriptures website? This is why parents are concerned. Who determines where the line is drawn between the Program and what Union Scriptures promotes? You cannot police “non-proselytising” 100 percent of the time. This is a risk that parents should not need to tolerate from Government.

    • Kathy says:

      07:38pm | 13/05/11

      Scott, I am sure we are all quaking in our shoes about those super scary Christians who might just mention God in an unguarded moment! (& I am agnostic btw).

    • Scott says:

      08:08pm | 13/05/11

      Kathy, I’m hardly quaking in my shoes about that prospect. It would actually make me laugh, almost uncontrollably.

      You simply cannot differentiate the Program from it’s religious underpinnings despite good intentions. But if we can, like it’s claimed, lets only allow muslim,  hindu or jewish “chaplains” into State Schools for the next three years, christians are tolerant of other religions? Maybe not the jews, they killed Jesus. Oh and I went to evangelical christian church until I was 20 (before I was born again) but I’m not agnostic, I’m just a realist.

    • Christopher says:

      05:24pm | 13/05/11

      Yawn…
      Same old tripe article and same old cliched comments.
      ‘It’s ideology, stupid!’ (on both sides of the fence)

    • Langdon says:

      05:31pm | 13/05/11

      When I went to public school we had actual professional counsellors we could go to.  What ever happened to them???  I would much prefer to pay more money in taxes to guarantee professional support for our children in need, than take a short-cut loaded with bias and vested interests.  Introductory Ethics is a pretty simple subject to teach and could very easily be done by a schools PROFESSIONAL COUNSELLOR!!!  Untrained, indoctrinated, evangelists are not remotely the people to be letting anywhere near troubled/vulnerable youth.  PS - not impressed Gilliard, when Howard did it I screamed but we all knew he was living in the 50’s, if not the 20’s, I really expected better from this govt.

    • Plato says:

      05:34pm | 13/05/11

      Just wondering, Penbo, how many Muslims are included in the chaplaincy program?  Does the Australian Christian Lobby have any problem with this, and if so, why?

    • Plato says:

      05:58pm | 13/05/11

      I’m still waiting for the reason why the religious supposedly have special qualities that fit them for chaplaincy programs that supposedly don’t include religious instruction.

    • Catching up says:

      05:58pm | 13/05/11

      I have a feeling real problems arise when you have a principal who is religious. Why would you want these people when trained consellors are available.

    • Erasmus says:

      06:13pm | 13/05/11

      If you think you can bulldoze believing parents out of the public school system, you’re as bigoted as Pol Pot.

      I pay my taxes. I value Christian education. In fact we started the schools in Australia. Christians only agreed to get behind the public school system on the proviso that our Bible teachers could then teach in schools.

      Why should any of you prejudiced, narrow-minded, freedom-hating, fundamentalist-secularists have the right to determine that God is a non subject. You’re as Godless as Stalin without any of his wit.

    • fairsfair says:

      06:57pm | 13/05/11

      Well said. As I said in my above post, I would like my child to have access to *options* as being an athiest, I can’t answer questions about god and the bible if they were to ask me. I also recognise that Christianity has had a pretty big part in the development of our culture. I can not for the life of me work out how we, as a nation, will fight so very hard for the rights of minority groups, but we refuse to allow christian children within the state school system access to chaplains that would also serve a very functional purpose for children of all (or no) faiths. It seems as though eveyone has freedom, except if you are christian. Hypocricy in the extreme.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      07:38pm | 13/05/11

      @Erasumus- There is a free place where the taxpayer doesn’t have to pay a cent to send their kids to learn about God. It’s called Sunday School at your local church. The 220 million dollars could be more usefully spent improving Australian student standings in literacy, mathematics and science. Stalin was an ex-seminarian, I believe. It must have been where he got his wit.

    • WHAT THE ? says:

      06:39pm | 13/05/11

      all religions seem to profess love, tolerance and basicly being a good person, yet all seen to want to kill each other. can someone please explaine this to me.

    • KRS1 says:

      10:53am | 14/05/11

      On a (probably too) basic level… and speaking from a Christian viewpoint… Faith (in Jesus… what you are calling “religions” is a solution to the problem of sin, i.e. an imperfect world full of people who do exactly that sort of thing.

      Killing, torturing, locking people up, even mocking and bullying people is all sin…

      When people turn to Jesus who forgives them of sin, just through accepting that they need Him, you will get all the spectrum of imperfect human reactions to this…

      - those who don’t really believe but say that they do, producing nothing but bad “press” for real believers, such as what you are commenting on

      - those who really believe, but being men (and probably without continuing to learn and improve on what they believe), continue to sin, despite the forgiveness they have… once again producing bad “press” for the Christian faith. That is why you see wars, killings etc in the Bible which are so often set upon by people trying to bring Christianity down.

      - Those who DO believe, and make their goal to learn, grow, improve and show a differentiation between themselves and the world, which is RARE in the world today. This is they type of person you are looking for.

      (I should point out that Christianity does not profess or “order one to do” the things you mentioned, these are a response to being given a solution to the problem of sin)

      This is only a VERY brief explanation however don’t stop there.. find out for yourself…. that is the difference between being part of the problem you define above, and part of the real solution.

    • Bikinis on Top says:

      06:52pm | 13/05/11

      the chaplains make good science teachers.
      if chaplains get drunk, they see pink elephants.
      They imagine they are at Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras.

    • Kathy says:

      07:33pm | 13/05/11

      What the????

    • Dark Horse says:

      07:02pm | 13/05/11

      Thanks for a well written, sensibly debated post that promotes my and others’ points of view exceptionally well. If the government is going to allow religionists to state their beliefs in schools, why not atheists, scientologists, humanists, evolutionists and the host of others whose views differ? 

      Although I would prefer that children weren’t brainwashed into any religious viewpoint, or even atheism for that matter, but left to their own intelligence and interest to decide in what they believe, if they must be imbued with this nonsense, it should be done at home and not at public expense at school.

    • Servaas says:

      07:03pm | 13/05/11

      For interest sake, are teachers allowed to express their views on life in other subjects such as maths? Let’s say a maths teacher mentions his love of the subject and how beautifully God has designed everything and how we can study it through maths. What if scholars approach a teacher and asks him questions on life, is he allowed to share with them what he believes and how he sees things? Obviously part of teaching is that the teacher imparts of himself to the students as well? This teacher does not necessarily have to be Christian, he could believe anything, are they allowed to interact with scholars on that level? All subjects form part of life and your life philosophy has to be intwined in it especially if you want to present something passionately. Why do we study these things in the first place?

      I’m very much for the seperation of church and state but surely schools should cater for children’s full needs, not just let grown-up robots dump info on them, so what alternatives are there to the chaplaincy program?

    • Sickemrex says:

      02:36pm | 14/05/11

      No, your maths teacher shouldn’t discuss his belief in how beautifully god designed everything.  He can just mention how much he loves maths.  Any more than a gay phys ed teacher should happen to mention, in passing, how great it is being gay.  Or the art teacher talking about how his being straight contributes to his appreciation of art.  Surely one can be enthusiastic and informative about a subject without having to go into the nitty gritty of their personal values.

      Schools must have changed so much in the past 20 years.  I went to a Catholic High School and the only teachers who ever spoke about religion were the nuns, and you could choose to believe them.  Or not.  Way back in the 80’s the science curriculum taught evolution and the big bang.  Actually I do remember a science teacher talk about religion when he said that it was possible God started off the big bang.  Not that God did start the universe, just that it was possible.  In hindsight, for a Catholic school, I can’t say I ever felt religion to have been pushed down my throat.

      On the Chaplaincy issue, if they can manage to not discuss whatever brand of Christianity they follow and fulfil their counsellong roles, it’s probably cheaper than psychologists in schools.  RE classes in State Schools are a whole other issue.

    • Sickemrex says:

      02:42pm | 14/05/11

      I should mention that I find the Access Ministries attitude to the Chaplaincy program deeply troubling.

    • thomas vesely says:

      07:05pm | 13/05/11

      how will we ensure that the children are safe ? maybe CCTV everywhere ?
      cause we know they molest.

    • John says:

      07:16pm | 13/05/11

      Excellent article. GO THE HIGH COURT CHALLENGE!!!!!!!

    • Barney says:

      07:32pm | 13/05/11

      Why should we be made to pay for some idiot to indoctrinate our children , clearly this is not on .

    • michael says:

      06:44am | 15/05/11

      Why should we pay idiots to shovel Al Gore’s BS into our children’s minds, and there is no opting out from that crap.

    • Anne Powles says:

      07:38pm | 13/05/11

      Without criticising individual School Chaplins who, no doubt,could be sometimes assistance to some students, I resent government spending on this initiative.  As an athiest taxpayer with children who attended school and now grandchildren who attend school, I think it is frightening that the government would, in this way, transmit to the children the view that religion of any sort is regarded and endorsed as correct by our secular system.  Children believe what they are told at school as, often, having more authority even than parents. There is a sufficient proportion of the population that, like me, rejects all religious views and choses a state school because it is allegedly secular.  If our children need special guidance at school let it be by a trained psychologist.  If they need spiritual help let it be looked after at home.

    • Kathy says:

      07:56pm | 13/05/11

      Anne, the school where I work (as Finance Officer) had a parent vote before employing our chaplain, who as I mentioned in a previous post, is not permitted to mention God/Jesus etc.  Please can everyone find out what actually happens at schools???

    • The Liberal Loafer says:

      03:26pm | 14/05/11

      Kathy deserves a trip to Abbottobad with Tim B and Nicole G to meet Tony Abbott.

    • andre says:

      07:43pm | 13/05/11

      I think you are misunderstanding or do not know what lies behind Gillard decision, David . It is not her desire to appease Christian lobby. Gillard as an atheist, knows very well what is she doing spending money on chaplains.

      But let’s start form the beginning.

      1. In Christianity believing parens should be instructing their children about the faith, not school.
      2. In schools philosophy of Darwinism (evolutionism) is taught as science and is used to explain what happened in the beginning , even though , what was there in the beginning is outside of the scope of science and therefore it is an religious issue.Creationism is banned from scholl because it is not naturalistic and therefore"unscientific”.
      3. Main stream “Christian” churches accepted the materialistic phiolosophy (evolutionism) long time ago and basically are supporting evolution even it contradicts the Bible.
      4. Atheists , fighting the Biblical truth know that their allies are main stream Christian churches who abandoned the Bible , accepted the evolutionism and use them as “useful idiots”.

      Eugenie Scott militant anticreationist from US once said
      “I have found that the most effective allies for evolution are people of the faith community. One clergyman with a backward collar is worth two biologists at a school board meeting any day! … What we [such clergy and atheists] have in common is that we want to see evolution taught in the public schools … ”

      Eugenie Scott, Executive director of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE-America), Research News and Opportunities in Science and Theology.

      Note that in their battle against the Bible , atheists do not value scientists much( one clergyman for 2 biologists)
      I hope this will clarify the issue for you, David and for some Christians…

    • Ikki says:

      04:08am | 14/05/11

      Could be on the button there Andre. Let’s hope the Chaplains are not from the anticreation watered down Churches.

    • FDS says:

      08:05pm | 13/05/11

      There is no place for religion in secular state schools.If parents wanting to have their children a religious upbringing, then they can send them to various religious schools. And there are also various Sunday Schools where the parents can send them for some religious education. Keep State matters separate from religious matters. We are not living in the Middle Ages where religion was part of life. And if one does not conform their dogma then you are branded a heretic with as consequences you are being burnt on the haystack or being stoned. Child psychologist or qualified counsellors will do the job if a child needs some sort of help.
      I do not want to see that these children are being poured down their throats all kind of religious abracadabra or religious fables and fairy tales.
      Oh yeah, I can already hear some people saying that I am spouting heresy. Well so be it. Then burn me in public on the haystack like they have done to others in the Middle Ages.

    • Mr Grrr says:

      08:08pm | 13/05/11

      It is unconstitutional to be an athiest:

      ‘WHEREAS the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia,
      Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth ...’

      If Christian Australia & its Bible is a problem, you are welcome to join China or the USSR ...  Australia in contrast is a nation of ‘humble reliance’. Halleluyah.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:01pm | 13/05/11

      In God we trust, all others pay cash…..

    • fml says:

      12:31am | 14/05/11

      christianity in australia is a symbolic relic, much like the monarchy in the UK, countries evolve when they overtake their past, they remain stagnant when they hold onto it.

    • LC says:

      04:57pm | 15/05/11

      Perhaps you should tell this to JuLIAR Gillard, our atheist PM…

    • Stef says:

      08:19pm | 13/05/11

      What a biased article. Stereotyping, generalising. I believe in separation of church and state but I don’t need top use hyperbole and fiction to make an argument. Do your research

    • Kwin says:

      08:21pm | 13/05/11

      As a qualified Social Worker my issue with Chaplaincy is that chaplains are seeing children who may have serious issues but they have very low level training and supervision. In most public schools there is a lack of access to qualified mental health professionals and my concern would be that chaplains are expected to fill this gap. My children attend Catholic school and I am a school counsellor in that system. The catholic system seems to understand the role of religious and mental health professionals and doesn’t confuse the two. I would be very concerned if my children were being ‘counselled’ by someone who is not tertiary trained and value neutral.

    • Parent Tweed Heads says:

      10:04pm | 13/05/11

      It appears all the negative comments about expanding our childrens minds by allowing them to experience things such as religion, is born from from people trying to defend their own positions. As a parent, I encourage my children to experience our broad culture which, includes religion.
      We live in a secular society where our laws are based on custom which, is what our society expects. In previous centuries, this custom was based on religion; we have as a society, tried to move beyond religion, but our current laws and society still hang on to the notion of the greater good, “do unto others as you would have done onto you.”
      This notion of a wide seperation of state and religion was the ideology which, gave us our modern day secular society. As we grow as a society, we should always try and find ways of improving our society; with this in mind, we should avail our children with the opportunity to experience as many facets of our society as possible without causing detrimental harm to them.
      By rejecting the opportunity for our children to experience religion is denying them their right to make their own informed decision about their own beliefs.
      My best mate, who is one of the most intellectual persons I know, was brought up without religion; and he is also one of the most ignorant persons I know. This demonstrates, that we as parents need to expose our children to mainstream religion, if we want them to be well informed when they make their own decisions on their religion beliefs.

    • Brenton Poole says:

      01:27am | 14/05/11

      Chaplains are not allowed to counsel any students but are trained to network and refer to trained professionals in there area.

    • marley says:

      08:35am | 14/05/11

      @Parent - this article is not about religious education in schools, it’s about using chaplains to deal with counselling in schools.  I can think of no reason why the basic qualification to do counselling should be religious affiliation rather than formal training in psychology and counselling.

      As for religious education, it is important for kids, probably at the high school level, to have an understanding of the history of organized religion and its role in the development of our (and other) societies.  That should be part of a decent secular education.  But if parents believe it important to indoctrinate their children into the meaning of the scriptures, the Koran, the Torah or any other religious text, then parents should take responsibility for that and not expect taxpayers to foot the bill.

    • Colin den Ronden says:

      09:16pm | 13/05/11

      If you don’t teach it to them they might start exploring weirdo religions like Islam when they grow up. That is one way of choosing to be sub-human, it is like having a moral lobotomy.

    • Jill Lyal says:

      10:50am | 01/07/11

      So Islam is a weirdo religion?  It is no more weirdo than Christianity or any other religion - obviously you have not done any comparative study of religions or you would know that they all have much the same values and lead to the same conclusions - they are an outdated way of getting humans to refrain from destroying themselves.  I think with the benefit of the knowledge and achievements we have today we should be able to come up with a more rational basis for refraining from self-destructive behaviours!

    • JohnH says:

      09:37pm | 13/05/11

      The original article, and a large number of the comments, fail to discriminate between Schools Religious Education/Instruction, conducted by volunteers and commonly referred to as ‘scripture’, and the chaplaincy program which pays individuals to work in schools to provide support for students.
      Participation in SRE/SRI is optional so “indoctrination” is up to the parents.

    • fml says:

      12:35am | 14/05/11

      a large number of comments fail to understand that the article is talking about chaplains overstepping their boundaries into religious education.

    • the whisperer says:

      10:38pm | 13/05/11

      Poor Jimmy. He wants to learn, but no-one will answer his questions. He’s ten, and he really wants to know. “If god made the world, who made god?” “How can god make a woman have a baby? Don’t you have to be married first?” “If I don’t believe in god will I go to hell and burn forever?”
      “Why do I have to listen to that man who always puts his hand down my pants, and tells me it is okay?” “Why have my Mum and Dad made me go to this class if they really love me?”
      Howard thought he would placate his wierd cultish supporters from the outer fringe by favoring mind altering propaganda lessons in the classroom.
      Gilliard is foolishly following his cue. Sadly, as an avowed atheist, she is succumbing to the pressure of the pagans. Howard, thought by some to be intelligent, actually believes this mumbo-jumbo nonsense. So does Abbott, and why not? His first loyalty is not to the Australian people but to Rome. He swore allegiance to Rome years ago. He cares not at all for the separation of powers. He wants the church to become the State, or vice versa. But our P.M.?  No excuses. We must not let this happen. Sadly though, it probably will if it depends on the will of the people. The people have no will. No backbone, no courage, and no will. Anzac spirit? Forget it, that died ages ago. We are just a mild reminder of what used to be called a fair dinkum Aussie. Just a bunch of ineffective sheep, terrified of being seen as an objector, in case we come under notice, lose our job, get spoken about in the neighbourhood, or “offend” someone in authority.
      No-one who gets down on his/her knees to worship a statue will ever get control of my children. When they have grown they can make their own decisions, but until then I am entrusted with their welfare and that doesn’t include bowing down to probably perverted priests handing out offerings that say ” Eat my flesh and drink my blood”. No thank you Julia.

    • me says:

      10:51pm | 13/05/11

      thank goodness for the chaplain at my school.  With increasing needs and time constrictions placed on all ready overworked guidance officers, I often call upon our chaplain to assist in counselling and settling my students when I don’t have the time to allocate.  He is a quiet and gentle man who listens and takes an interest.  He will interact with the parents and I have never heard that he has ever mentioned religion to the kids.  The kids respect him and heed his wise words.  It would be a shame for this much needed service to be taken away.

      Unfortunately, I don’t often have the time to sit and discuss or follow through when something extraordinary, in the true sense of the word, has occurred in the lives of these young kids.  He does, and he does it well! Take this away and replace with what?

    • wallet says:

      11:47am | 28/06/11

      And if the chaplain was a child predator, using text book grooming techniques such as befriending the family, and telling the children to ‘trust me, I’m the chaplain’ would you still feel the same way?

    • Jill Lyall says:

      10:54am | 01/07/11

      You may get nice people (although there is no guarantee that one couldn’t be a total religious crank) as chaplains but there doesn’t seem to be anything in place at the moment to ensure they have a modicum of training in mental health issues, domestic violence, child abuse or general counselling and interpersonal skills.  I think at least a Certificate III in Community Services would be a good starting point if this is the level of support and service we think is OK for our kids.

    • chungo mung says:

      12:29am | 14/05/11

      Wow, just read that long line of warble. I notice a whole stack of atheists and non-believers that think belief and spirituality are for idiots, and that they are absolutely correct in their views. A whole stack of believers that are desperately fighting against these peoples belief - that they are so right - for the sake of their own beliefs. And quite a few absolute jerks commenting - in terms of arrogance and attitude. entertainment, of sorts.

    • Rock says:

      12:48am | 14/05/11

      I love what the Chaplains do, and all this anti Christian perception about ramming religion down children’s throats is rubbish. Look the stuff they teach in school about what is important to be a good human being is NOT there. our morality and some LAWS are based on Christianity. Really better to learn to love one another - do not steal, lie be disobedient to parents isn’t it, or do you want lady gaga wannabes teaching, because they preach too, their kind of pop culture on our children.- guess what God might actually be real ?!!

    • Brenton Poole says:

      01:23am | 14/05/11

      This article is a stand out of poor journalism. If David Penberthy had done any sort of research on the government internet sites which define the parameters that Chaplains operate in secular schools he would realise that the program is not about religion but the wellbeing of our youth. He would see that they are not allowed to preach or teach religion, that they cannot interact with students unless there is parental permission. he would also see that the program has been running for three years in many schools and and is closely scrutinized at by both state and federal departments.Surveys have shown that 90% of SECULAR principals, teachers, parents and students are happy with it and want it to continue…why/...because it works!!! That is why this government is expanding a program that was commenced by the previous government. They are “respecting the rights of secular parents who have selected a secular education” and want this to continue because they have see the benefits to their children first hand.

    • Franc Hoggle says:

      01:26am | 14/05/11

      You are incorrect in asserting Gillard is an atheist - that requires introspection. She is an *apatheist*. My guess is her public assertion of godlessness was a gamble she took to try and ensnare the ever growing godless demographic. It backfired on her in a very big way - the godless do not appreciate a morally destitute populist advertising herself as one of them. It besmirches them in a manner no religious critic ever could ever hope to achieve. Her bankruptcy is all the more evident by the ease with which she has flip-flopped to try and buy off the more lunatic fringe of the christian noise mongers. This is pure harlotry. People who don’t believe in god have standards. She appalls them.

    • nanks says:

      06:16am | 14/05/11

      if you want a secular education send your kids to a private school - just don’t expect me to pay for it

    • john says:

      07:21am | 14/05/11

      it would appear that our prime minister is a very confused individual, she is an athiest who promotes religeon. perhaps towards the end of the year we could have men in red suits with long white beards employed to tell the kids the real meaning of christmas, it’s all about getting presents, and at easter people dressed up as chickens with baskets of chocolate eggs to explain easter to the kids.go for it julia promote your brand of confusion.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      11:12am | 14/05/11

      She promotes religion so that god botherers vote for her and labour even though she doesnt believe in supernatural sky wizards.

    • Brian says:

      07:32am | 14/05/11

      Why not teach them Islamic beliefs if it is thought christianity is going to lead the kids astray.

    • Santa Clause says:

      08:00am | 14/05/11

      If it weren’t
      so serious, it would be funny -  sorry - it is! 
      All religious people believe in god but they don’t believe in UFO’s or fairies at the bottom of the garden.
      Why not?  Please explain!

    • Phil Osopher says:

      08:02am | 14/05/11

      Parents can opt out of their kids going to RI but they are not allowed to do anything constructive in that time.  That is religious blackmail by the deluded - is this really the 21st Century or are we back in the dark ages?

    • Spaghetti Godess says:

      08:13am | 14/05/11

      ‘Holey books’ wasn’t a spelling mistake - just a realistic description of the propaganda in religious dialogue.  This is the 21st Century but we are still listening to cave men-tality.

    • Peter says:

      08:28am | 14/05/11

      David, just to clarify matters please explain exactly what you mean by separation of Church and State.

    • andrew says:

      09:31am | 14/05/11

      good article. agree entirely. thanks for bringing this to people’s attention. i can’t believe we are expected to fund this sort of sh!t

    • Ferdinand says:

      09:44am | 14/05/11

      Has any one looked up what the meanings of chaplain and chapel are?
      Yes, right, it has a lot to do with religious connotations. And why should it be introduced to secular state schools? Who are they wanting to bamboozle with religious stories? Let the chaplain work in their field in their religious schools.
      Well, I know, some people will tell me “GO TO HELL” like in the Middle Ages.

    • amba says:

      09:50am | 14/05/11

      Im 28, I remember going to a public school up until grade 5, grade 6 and 7 were at a private catholic school. Come time for religion i was never interested in anything more than colouring in the little books they gave us, the rest of the class i would half listen but could never work out why this was something i had to be learning.
      At home religion was a firey subject, mum had me christened as a baby (C of E) to appease the elder generation of the family, whereas my dad grew up with 5 siblings and a strict religious catholic upbringing, priests, nuns, canes etc. Hence he is now, i think the term he used is, ‘lapsed catholic’.

      Come high school, when i was able to think for myself a lot more i was in class one day when a knock at the door signaled the beginning of the years first RE class (sigh) i remember thinking this is a waste of time and i dont really want to listen to this, fair enough for those that believe good for you, dont try shoving it down my throat though. I remember asking if i could leave as it wasnt something i believed in and didnt need to be taught. They told me i needed a note from my parents, my parents said I was old enough to make that choice for myself and to simply walk outside when it begins. I did that, the teacher and the RE person werent too happy about it though.

      My daughter is 2 now. I am not looking forward to her going to school and coming home with the same sorts of stories i apparently told my folks i had learnt about at primary school. lol.

      i also often asked myself the separation of church/state and religion in state schools issue as well…

    • stylusmobilus says:

      10:24am | 14/05/11

      http://www.venganza.org
      ‘Nuff said. I demand that the Gillard Government make Pastafarian chaplains available in all schools, at the very least I demand that Pastafarianism is taught alongside Xtianity, Islamism and any other fantasy stories these chaplains will impart on my children.

    • Paul says:

      03:56pm | 14/05/11

      Stylusmobilus, isn’t it great we can live in a country where we are free to believe and tell everyone about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jesus, Muhammad and Xenu. There are differences between these and other world views such as athiesm and what results from these beliefs. For example in a Muslim country most people think that family members who leave Islam should be stoned (eg Egypt 80% of people think this, and similarly in Iran). In athiest countries believing in any religion can land you in prison, works camps or facing execution (North Korea, China). Now let’s consider Western countries that are founded on Christian values. Jesus said “my kingdom is not of this world”. In true Christianity there is no desire to take over State institutions to force people to do anything as there is in Islam (imposition of Sharia law is the goal of Islam). Christians believe that God gives us free will and violating free will is effectively violating God’s plan. Of course there must be laws, but as Christians we believe only in laws that limit the moral choices of individuals where it adversely affects other individuals (things like murder, rape, stealing, assault…).

      It was the States taking over Christianity that caused the organised religion of Christianity to deviate from the intended religion for example when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity, forming Catholicism. The rediscovery of the principles of true Christianity (those defined by Jesus Christ and a few early Church leaders) is what has brought about the freedoms that we now enjoy. Should not therefore the practitioners of the religion for whom we have to thank for these hard won freedoms be permitted to teach the basics of those beliefs that made this possible, within reasonable bounds?

      Personally I feel that the amount provided is a bit too steep, proper training is lacking and clearly the non-proslytising rules have been broken, so what is being delivered needs to be improved on of course.

    • Bob Bartlett says:

      10:30am | 14/05/11

      They took “Religion” out of the public Schools in America and replaced it with armed guards and metal detectors…what a wonderful tradeoff.

    • Paulb says:

      11:42pm | 14/05/11

      Yeah Bob, life is just that simple.

    • Fiat Lux says:

      10:47am | 14/05/11

      In State Schools anything goes . Jewellry , tattoos , body piercing , mutilating ear lug holes for boys , open displays of homosexuality . Such schools are bastions of ferality . I send my children to Private ‘‘Faith Schools’’ were Christian values are inculcated . Whether my children end up believing in God or not such values should help to stop them leading ammoral , feckless lives and help them realise their full potential .

    • Jason Todd says:

      04:10am | 19/05/11

      I too went to a private school where Christian values were instilled in the children. Do you know what went on? Jewellery, Tattoos, Body Piercing, Smoking, Drinking, Drugs, Open displays of homosexuality, General open displays of sexuality.
      Some of us came out believing in God. Many of us didn’t. Want to know what the difference is ten years on? Sweet bugger all.

    • Jill Lyall says:

      11:08am | 01/07/11

      And what would you think if your children turned out exactly the opposite?  It’s not something you can control - your kids have minds of their own don’t they?  You may be lucky.  Or your kids may have no imaginations or brains and just believe everything that is told to them with no ability to analyse and question.  Such smugness is what turns most people off Christianity.

    • Pioneer says:

      11:14am | 14/05/11

      Man made god in his image!!

    • jules says:

      11:23am | 14/05/11

      ‘Good Christian’ - is that an oxymoron like ‘Christian charity’?

    • kathy says:

      01:13pm | 14/05/11

      Religion should be taught at home.  The sooner we bring in the French way no religious articles at school or taught religion at school the better off we will be. I am so sick of seeing draped up kids, and hearing sermons on what rights this person has etc.  Give it up -  I do not want some fundamentalist lunatic teaching my daughter religion of any kind.

    • Rick O'Shea says:

      07:24pm | 14/05/11

      The big worry in High Schools today is that the ‘Chappies’ are young attractive married men (they are always married in order to have sex and be a Christian) that seem to minister exclusively to girls in their offices. They don’t fall under the same Code of Conduct umbrella that is applied to Qld teachers. I hold my humble breath walking past these time bomb situations.

    • Chalkie says:

      08:50pm | 14/05/11

      In my 18 years of teaching teenagers at state schools I have only a great appeciation of the job of the chaplain. Their main role is to support those kids with issues in life. And let me tell you there are some kids with horrific baggage and circumstances. The chaplains work to break this cycle of horror so that the young can be supported to grow up with a chance to lead good lives. Sorry situation it is but there are some parents that need the state to provide the values education service.

    • Peter Anderson says:

      12:17am | 15/05/11

      So tell us, was the evolution of people and societies capable of inventing for and giving us western freedoms, such as flight, cars, pharmacology, and the internet an inspiring kind of miracle of a vibrant, intricate universe, or was it just a ho-hum twist of unconscious physics-driven fate?  Teach the children that we live in a fascinating universe full of different people with many different ideas and imaginations, and that we can all get along fine if we are appropriately patient, thoughtful, passionate and kind, and we can rest knowing the money that so many folks adore is not being wasted in these school classes.

    • chaplain Grady says:

      12:51am | 15/05/11

      I am a chaplain and i would invite anyone like yourself to come see what i do. i don’t mind people making comments but come see what i do first then make your judgments.
      I don’t preach at kids, i spend most of my time trying to keep kids in school and suporting them through there issues.  One of my days are funded from the goverment and that is the case with most chaplains. The other days are raised by doing fundrasiers. i cent. don’t do it for the money bc i get paid less then a fulltime worker at mcdonalds. I do it because there are kids out there hurting.

      let me know if you want to come to my school??

    • v says:

      07:44am | 15/05/11

      The chaplain at my kids’ school is young and hip.  They give the kids a hot breakfast once a week.  It would be a terrible loss if chaplains lost funding.

    • Malcolm says:

      08:01am | 15/05/11

      Looks likes this is Meme of the month. Apparently its all some opinion writers care about.
      I laugh at the hatred and vitoril that comes out the of the mouths of people who cannot expresss their point of view without anger.
      I especially like the fact that 220 million for this is apparently a wasted craven sop to the Christians, and its soooo wasteful. But yet the funding is in the budget and wont be changed.
      Enjoy your Sunday people ha ha.

    • seduxen says:

      08:33am | 15/05/11

      Conflict of propagandists in the war for the minds. The playground is shrinking, It is like the old saying, don’t steal, because the government don’t tolerate competition…

    • Paul Thompson says:

      09:03am | 15/05/11

      It’s a shame this blog has descended into such a poor standard of debate.
      The plain facts are that the Budgeted spending on Chaplaincy has nothing to do with funding Religious Education and whether or not this is appropriate in State funded schools.
      A review was done on the effectiveness of the Chaplaincy program and it was found to be overwhelmingly supported by teachers and principals (97%), because it effectively addresses the emotional welfare needs of schoolchildren and frees teachers to do their job better. Despite the claim by Access, Chaplains are not permitted to proselytise or teach scripture as part of their work, nor do they do so if they wish to keep their jobs.
      Both Liberal and Labor parties support the move because it is good public policy based on the evidence
      It’s a pity that the above original ill-informed article has brought another opportunity to drag out unfounded prejudices against Christianity.
      A lot of these critics have conveniently ignore the fact that Christians started many of our public institutions such as schools, hospitals and charities. William Wilberforce who opposed slavery and Dr Martin Luther King who opposed racism are examples of how Christians can make a positive difference to Society.
      Maybe Atheists need to spend a bit more energy in contributing to it instead of tearing it down

    • Peter says:

      12:40pm | 15/05/11

      I thought there were some good points made in this debate.  Of course you have to overlook some abusive sprays, but what do you expect in a totally open forum with reasonably relaxed moderation?

    • Tedd says:

      01:40pm | 15/05/11

      “the Chaplaincy program ... was found to be overwhelmingly supported by teachers and principals (97%)”

      Unsubstantiated figure from a dodgy review.

      The rest of your post is the appeal to tradition fallacy and the democratic fallacy.

    • Luke says:

      01:38pm | 15/05/11

      No matter what religion does, writers like this will write stuff about it, and people will comment like this…
      I dont know this repititon is keeping so many people occupied so well.

    • Mrs T says:

      02:42pm | 15/05/11

      Last I knew, parents have a choice of whether their children do religious education and are able to request whether their children have access to the services of the Chaplain/s in their child’s school. I’m not sure that the RE lessons in my day have had a profound affect on my beliefs, religious, life or other.  But, that doesn’t mean, because I don’t wish to use these services, that others in our community should not be able to have access to them. A Chaplains role is to assist with a students, through counselling and in class and lunch time activities as directed by the Principal and or Guidance Officer.  They are not Education Queensland staff, but are in fact staffed in schools through Scripture Union. It’s probably difficult to determine the importance of their input or whether results can be guaged from their service to the school community or those individual students needing support, as it’s much different to rating teachers on Literacy and Numeracy ...

    • James says:

      04:05pm | 15/05/11

      Goodness David, surely we can trim some fat from other areas of a typical Labor budget before we go ripping the chaplains out of our schools.  Is Labor giving $250 million to the commercial television networks again any time soon?  How about propping of the chinese made set top box market?  Surely chaplaincy is a more valuable commodity even in a secular society than most of the nonsense we get for our taxes.

    • LC says:

      04:39pm | 15/05/11

      Access ministries has proven themselves to be untrustworthy to have their employees working in schools after they admitted they hope to make today’s schoolchildren into “disciples”. At the very least, all chaplains in their employ must be suspended from duty unless an thorough investigation clears them of preaching in public schools (which is in violation of the Constitution).

      At best they should remove them completely from all schools, private and public, and replace them with secular guidance councilors, like I had in my school years. But knowing that the Australian Christian Lobby has both major parties in their pocket, that’ll happen when hell freezes over.

    • Phil says:

      04:43pm | 15/05/11

      Something to consider. In the 2001 census 68% of Australians identified themselves as Christian.

    • Tedd says:

      05:14pm | 15/05/11

      Wait for the more current results of this years census - 2011
      (probably will be released in 2012}

    • LC says:

      05:44pm | 15/05/11

      And according to the annual Church-Life survey, only around 10-12% of Christians regularly attend church…

    • Margie says:

      05:10pm | 15/05/11

      Chaplains do not preach or teach about God.  Our School chaplain at a school on the Brisbane Northside raises money for under privileged kids and their families (of which there are quite a few at our school), she provides breakfast each morning and lunches 3 times per week, family hamper packs for families doing it tough and uniforms for kids who’s parents cannot afford to buy them.  At no time is she allowed to talk about God nor is she allowed to counsel the children - encourage yes, counsel no.  She is a beautiful addition to our school and I sincerely hope the Chaplaincy Program stays.

    • Jill Lyall says:

      11:38am | 01/07/11

      WHY is it down to a nice lady to provide these kids with food and clothing?????  They are our kids going to our public schools.  Better provision needs to be made by the COMMUNITY as represented in the GOVERNMENT.  Are we going back to feudal times when people were kept alive by the church charity??  It is a damnation and shame to Australia that we have people in such an underprivileged position that it requires private and church charity to go into our schools.

    • Philip says:

      05:26pm | 15/05/11

      David, I would just take issue with you statement that it is 222 years since the French Revolution established the principle separation of church and state. The constitution of Providence Rhode Island, founded by John Williams some 350 years ago, codified the principle of a “wall between church and state” and the guarantee of religious freedom for all - more than a century before the French Revolution. In addition, the First Amendment to the US Constitution, ratified in 1791, established the separation in the fledgling Republic while in France it was not until 1795 that such laws were passed and those laws were largely ignored in the chaos following the revolution. Credit for this principle in the modern world belongs in America, not Europe.

    • Joshua says:

      09:39pm | 15/05/11

      The answer is simple. Remove God from school and let the kids kill each other. I think this is what these blind people want. Ask the Americans for advice. They remove God from school and pay the price. That is why everything is going down there - they asked God to leave and when God left, Satan moved in. DO you want that in our beautifual Australian nation - not me! God we welcome you here!

    • ourmet says:

      12:06pm | 18/05/11

      Do you honesty believe in Satan?

      It’s radical talk like this that makes non church goers worry about the chaplains policy.

      I for one don’t want anyone who actually think Satan exists to be in a position of power over my children.

    • Jill Lyall says:

      11:33am | 01/07/11

      As far as I am concerned alot of the problems in the US today are because of restricted thinking like your’s.  I’ll wager that at least a proportion of the random and murderous shootings that have been carried out in the last decade have been done by people from “good Christian families” and the Oklahoma bombing was done by a devout fundamentalist Christian!

    • zac says:

      07:24am | 16/05/11

      just so you know….“you can’t be a good person if you don’t believe in God” is rubbish.
      I’m a christian and i don’t even believe that nor would i ever preach something like that.

      That’s not the type of thing Christianity teaches….that’s a mistake made by a person who is teaching christianity. before you say anything more just remember that we all make mistakes, why christianity takes the spotlight more than other topics is absolutely rediculous seen as though this country, regardless of how people feel, is based on Christian principles and is fundametal to who we are and how this country has developed. more to that is the fact that many regard this country as one of the best in the world…well you can thank the principles and values that this country has established over the years….and my advice is this.

      KEEP CHRISTIANITY, THE PROMINENT RELIGION IN THIS COUNTY!!!

      otherwise you may find this country slowly turning muslim, buddhist, morman or something else which if about as fundamentally different to Christianity as cheese is to chalk.

    • Jill Lyall says:

      11:28am | 01/07/11

      I am an Anglo Australian Aussie born of Scottish heritage.  I am a Buddhist.  Buddhism is a wonderful way of life and philosophy which give you inner strength to live a moral and uplifting life.  It is far less harmful than the religions of the book.  And as a Buddhist I am tolerant of all belief systems provided they lead to humility, self-awareness, compassion and good works and nothing more.  I do not see why Christianity should be privileged over other religions.  You can get some amazing Christians who meet the above criteria.  However Christianity has a dark history and has been responsible for some of the worst evils ever perpetrated by humans on each other, just like the other religions of the book, ie Islam and Jewish belief.  You get great and compassionate people from these traditions also, but unfortunately a dark history as well.

    • Matt says:

      03:12pm | 10/07/11

      Jill, the history of Sri Lanka is a fascinating read for a Buddhist preaching ahmisa.

    • Tim says:

      08:09am | 16/05/11

      Far out do you even research your articles? Chaplaincy is completely different to Scripture classes and to paint them together is like grouping a three year’s finger paintings with Rembrandt. There are some similarities there but worlds apart. News.com.au you should be ashamed as a “news” service of printing this crap

    • Jamie says:

      08:26am | 16/05/11

      Don’t pray in my school, and I won’t think in your church…

    • thomas vesely says:

      06:09pm | 16/05/11

      LOL…..........very.

    • JB says:

      12:02pm | 16/05/11

      $220 million! Imagine what good you could do with money. Its scandalous that the government is sucking up to the Christian lobby and allowing these charlatans into our public schools. Ok you could tell your kids to not have anything to do with the chaplain but what about when he organises a BBQ in the playground and all your friends want to go? Suddenly they are excluded and why should they be in a position of exclusion in their own school?
      These people are not qualified to counsel your kids on their problems but they do,
      and your taxes are paying for this. Gosh I’m agreeing with David Penberthy on something. That is a miracle.

    • Suzie Q says:

      04:22pm | 16/05/11

      Yawn…another God bashing bunch of comments.
      Bottom line - what role does chaplaincy serve in schools? Is it necessary? Are they effective? Who monitors them? Is their role clear? I sit worth the money or should the government rather employ trained psychologists and counsellers. Obviously chaplains are much cheaper.

      I am a Christian myself, and I believe it is my responsibility to teach my child values, morals and a life with purpose. Whether they teach religion in a school or not is not a driving factor for me, but rather the academic results, school reputation etc.

      Eternity is a long time….so its well worth the journey to know where you are going to spend it.

    • James says:

      11:11am | 17/05/11

      I wonder what the reaction would be if the Chaplains were Muslims or Scientologists or Koreshians I say in for a penny in for a pound.

    • fehowarth@iprimus.com.au says:

      12:08pm | 17/05/11

      We do not let school counsellors near these children unless they have had extensive training over a number of years.

      Yet we make use of what I would imagine be ministers of religion with little or no training in dealing with children.

      We do not have school counsellors in the schools for the fun of it.  We have them there to deal with children who often have serious problems that need to be dealt with extreme care.

    • Jill Lyall says:

      11:23am | 01/07/11

      I agree, and I think it is astounding that the strict policy of keeping people out of schools and away from our children unless they are highly trained has been breached in the name of chaplaincy.  It seem the word “chaplain” some how gives it a respectability - they must be OK because they are Christians.  There are many people who would say that their experience is that alarm bells ring as soon as someone professing Christianity gets near a child - just ask the many child abuse victims of Church ministers and priests.

    • James says:

      01:37pm | 17/05/11

      Here is a Tony Abbottesque slogan that can be employed in Keeping Cults out of Classrooms, “Keep Cults out of Classrooms”.

    • Andy Cap says:

      02:23pm | 18/05/11

      Keep religious nutters away from children or at least make them wear boxing gloves

    • Alison Gunn says:

      10:44pm | 01/06/11

      I have not read all the comments but I hope that someone can remind Bob Carr and friends that Australia has no formal “Separation of Church and State’ under the Australian Constitution but it does state in the preamble that we are in fact a country ‘Under the Blessing of the Almighty God’ and as a monarchy we are still under the Queen and her oaths as the head of the Church of England.  Australia was founded on Christian principles which has made us the great, free and democratic country that we are and this should be taught in our schools and not forgotten. Please stop trying to deceive the Australia people.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:02pm | 04/08/11

      I believe as many others do that School Chaplains are very much needed, many young people going through troubling and confusing issues in their lives have benefited greatly by knowing that someone cares enough to listen and offer support and advise when wanted. Unlike the dangers on the Internet where the hand that is offering help may lead to life threatening situations, School Chaplains offer someone who is close at hand and available in a non-threatening and safe environment.
      Of course many Children have the Love and support of their families and no one can replace Mum and Dad, but a caring person who is not involved often is needed to express concerns that may be too close to home to mention to their Mum or Dad and sometimes although they care Parents are just too busy or preoccupied with their own concerns to understand the problems that their Children are trying to deal with, also at other times they just don’t see the need, because often Children who are trying to be independent will cover over.
      Chaplains also offer a stabilising influence as well as Hope and practical support and they are willing to go the extra mile while others may give up, they are indeed V.N.P’s in other words they are…” Very Needed People.”
      As I think back to my Teenage years I only wish I had been able to share with someone my problems,  but instead I turned to harmful and what ended up being painful ways of coping trying to blot out the pain I was feeling and the confusion I didn’t have the maturity to resolve. Thankfully today although I have scars people who care have supported and comforted me, we all need to know we are valuable and what we contribute is worthwhile and if this was all Chaplains offered in way of support they would be very valuable but they offer so much more.
      This is why I believe as many other Christians do the need for continued School Chaplains because in this way alone regardless of other impute our Government is contributing in a positive way to the continued well being of our young people who will shape our future and they will be ready and equipped to face the challenges it presents in a way that will impact our Country and indeed the World for good.
      Kind regards Anne.

    • Mike O'Connor says:

      02:24pm | 05/08/11

      I’d love to know what kind of “safe and non-threatening” environment these chaplains would provide a kid at school dealing with their same-sex attraction and coming to terms with the fact that many religious people would prefer them dead because of it.

      I was one of those kids: believe me the last person I’d have turned to was a bloody Christian chaplain.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:57am | 06/08/11

      Dear Mike apart from being deceived as to how Christians feel about those who are lost in sin, you also seem to be hurting greatly, your anger at those who offer comfort and support show both your pain and fear.

      I don’t know one Christian including myself that wants anyone to suffer eternally or even now and as God is Love and can do no evil,  it is not His will that anyone suffers or perishes, people choose their own eternal destiny, God has given them a way to be Forgiven and Saved through His Son Jesus Christ so that they will not be punished and can live in Victory now.

      Stop and consider Mike just what do Christian Chaplains hope to achieve by condemning others because of their sins, this is what the world does and Satan, we have all sinned not one of us can claim to be righteous without Redemption… Christians share God’s Truth which leads people to freedom from the bondage of sin when they accept God’s atonement and freedom in Christ Jesus. 

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:23am | 06/08/11

      Joshua says…The answer is simple. Remove God from school and let the kids kill each other… I think this is what these blind people want. Ask the Americans for advice they asked God to leave and when God left, Satan moved in. DO you want that in our beautiful Australian Nation - not me! God we welcome you here!

      Joshua may not read this but I just want to thank him for his strong stand for The Lord, God bless you greatly for being willing to step out in Faith and share God’s Truth’... as your Christian Sister I commend and applaud you in Jesus Christ’s name and even if Joshua does not read this God will and says in confirmation to Joshua ..well done good and faithful servant.

      Christian Love Anne.

    • abucs says:

      04:10pm | 10/08/11

      Secular does not mean non religious.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:11am | 15/08/11

      Yes abucs that may be True, some have Evolution as their god, some have worldly gods like money and excess sensual and physical pleasure but as with all other Heathen and Pagan gods being Secular gods they reject the Christian God who created them…

      Christianity is the only Religion that believes in The Godhead or as They are called to day The Trinity which means 3 in One… Cults do not believe in the Godhead or any other Religion and the Bible tells us without this belief they are not worshiping the One True God, this is why Christians will not accept other Religions dogma. 
      I have never shown intolerance or prejudice towards any person of any another Nationality or belief I personally consider everyone as people of worth because Jesus died for them as well as for me and if they needed help or comfort or material needs etc I would be there for them and do what I could to help and I have done so in the past and will do so in the future regardless of what they believe and that includes Atheists who like them I don’t consider inferior to me except Spiritually, but like others who deny the One True God, I don’t accept their beliefs and never will because for me or any other Christian to do so would be denying God’s Truth which claims that they are all Heathens and Pagans because they are of the same mind shown by their unwillingness to not acknowledge the God of true Christianity.
      Most of the Jewish Nation or Israelites have also rejected Jesus Christ as part of The Godhead and it was there leaders that had Him crucified when He was on earth but any Jew like everyone else who comes to heart repentance and there now a remnant that have, believing in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour will be saved,  if they don’t they will also spend eternity in Hell because Jesus said ....
      I Am The Way, The Truth, and The Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. John 14:7b

      Kind regards Anne.

 

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