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Learning to be a dad’s the same as learning to be a man

Lincoln Archer

by Lincoln Archer

03 Nov 11:59am

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Filed under: Children, Fatherhood, Men, Parenting, Society

105 comments

There are 17 strangers in a training room. Over the course of eight hours, they’re repeatedly divided up by gender to brainstorm. At one point, the trainer makes a joke about turning testicles into a purse. It gets a laugh.

Lesson #1 Read a mean bedtime story. Photo: Herald Sun

This is a parenting class I attended recently. Eight couples with nothing in common except their pregnancy and an assumption that it’s apparently OK to joke about castration. 

Over at news.com.au, we’ve been looking at male identity in a post-GFC jobs market and a post-post-feminist household.  We have found traditional “male” jobs in decline and what one expert called a “sex-segregated workforce” taking its toll on Aussie men.

We have also found an increasing number of men seeking help through mental health services and therapy sessions. But in a way, that’s the good news – at least men are finally prepared to talk.

The problem remains finding someone prepared to listen. One therapist told us she is seeing a growing crisis of confidence in some men, and a lack of respect towards them coming from women.

The main problem, as this therapist sees it, is a lack of proper role models for men.  It’s an issue that’s been discussed before, but it’s timely for me because my wife is expecting our first child.

We’re told we’re having a girl. And that changed everything.

After years of thinking the pinnacle of masculine achievement would be to kick the winning goal in the Anzac Day match or tear through the English batting order at the Gabba Test, those benchmarks no longer seem to stack up.  It’s not about the boys-own daydreams anymore.

It became clear that learning how to be a dad is essentially the same as learning how to be a man - and I find that even more important now knowing a little girl will grow up relying on me. 

One of the ways I first reacted to the news was to *try* to get back to the gym, because a girl needs a strong father.  (I’m not saying it’s working, but hopefully she appreciates the effort…)

Towards the end of a long, long day in that training room, the trainer gave one final piece of advice to dads-to-be on how to make themselves useful once their baby had arrived: “Learn how to use the microwave”. 

The average age for first-time dads is now 33.  According to the ABS, dads say they spend an hour and a half a day cooking and cleaning. They spend nearly four hours a day interacting with their children if you count time spent doing other things. (Whoever said we can’t multitask..?)

And those figures are from a 2006 study; these days it’s fair to say we know more about cooking and parenting than hitting “defrost” and hoping for the best.

It struck a chord with me because in my family, men have always cooked.  And the examples set by my father and grandfather – in providing, in sacrificing, in living well and in adversity – now stand as the best lessons I could have.

And they are lessons I’m looking forward to passing on to my girl.

So if men really are struggling to find role models on the front pages, the social pages or the back pages, they could do worse than looking a little closer to home.

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105 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Mahhrat says:

      12:07pm | 03/11/11

      I applaud the sentiment, but the actual line itself is bullshit.

      Being a good father is not the same as being a good man.  I can be a great bloke with out without kids, and my masculinity is not defined by my progeny.

      By the way, oh manly man, did you stand up for the brotherhood when that “joke” was made?  Or did you take it “like a man”?  Or perhaps suggest that, similarly, breasts make great pillows?

      Reply

    • St. Michael says:

      12:54pm | 03/11/11

      “Being a good father is not the same as being a good man.  I can be a great bloke with out without kids, and my masculinity is not defined by my progeny.”

      No, but I do tend to agree with the author’s implied sentiment that your masculinity is drawn sharply into focus when you get kids.  It’s a cliche that they change your life, but they really, really do: your whole outlook on life changes entirely in a way I don’t think I could enunciate very well in words.

    • Enkl says:

      01:04pm | 03/11/11

      I think that the author means that you need to be masculine to be a good dad. Whereas you appear to have understood the opposite.

      Yes, there is something of a crisis of masculinity in our society. However, I submit that there is just as much of a crisis of femininity too.

      The world has changed and so the traditional models of masculine and feminine don’t quite fit any more. Who cares? Let’s just invent new ones and be happy each being our own unique variation on the theme.

    • Leah says:

      01:06pm | 03/11/11

      Mahhrat. The author did not say that BEING a dad is the same as BEING a man. He said that LEARNING to be a dad is the same as LEARNING to be a man. It’s the same learning process.

      Also, you have no idea what the context of the testicle/purse joke was so don’t take it like such an insult.

    • Mahhrat says:

      02:13pm | 03/11/11

      @Leah, just responding in kind.

      @St. Michael; absolutely agree.

      @Enkl:  That’s probably because the opposite is true.  You are not a “Man” because you are “Masculine”, otherwise the butch lesbians would all be out of a job (Yes, there’s an element of pisstaking in there, but I’m not going to spend 500 words being PC about it.  Deal)

      As you rightly say though, masculinity has changed massively.  The whole problem I have with the article is exactly that recognition;  it’s not a requirement to be “manly” in order to be a great “dad”.  I am sure there are some very, very effeminate men who are fantastic fathers. 

      It is important to me, in this age where “man up” is used to shame men and break their will, that we don’t confuse the two.

    • Pinkie Pie says:

      03:00pm | 03/11/11

      I don’t think balls make good purses, but boobies do make great pillows.

    • JuzzyD says:

      03:11pm | 03/11/11

      Man up and stop being a pussy Mahrat. Effeminate men make good second mothers, not fathers. The only reason effiminate men exist in the first place is society conditioning them to be so.

    • Economist says:

      03:54pm | 03/11/11

      Yeah Mahrat man up, Juzzyd style.

      When shaking another man’s hand, don’t just give a firm handshake, it’s important to try and break the blokes hand, jsut to show them how tough you are.

      When seeing a meterosexual surrounded by plenty of hot women, who you have no affiliation with, its important to man up with 5 of your footy mates to kick the s..t out of him.

      When pissed off in the car with another driver or pedestrian, rather than curse or mumble and continue on your way with the kids in the back. It’s far more important to get out of the car and try and kick the s..t out of driver/ pedestrian.

      When wife doesn’t do as you’d like, rather than reasoning with her, discussing the problem and airing grievances, you guessed, kick the s..t out of her.

      He JuzzyD, bro, did you read the piece, Lincoln’s conclusion effectively is providing, sacrificing, living well and dealing with adversity.  Men can do these things in a variety of ways. There’s no formula for what’s manly.

    • JuzzyD says:

      04:28pm | 03/11/11

      You know economist, I reread the post, and I have no idea why it annoyed me enough to write that. Heh.

      I guess ultimately I get annoyed by the message that if you show any signs of traditional masculinity, you are a wife beating rapist. (You threw in wife beating, so why not add rapist in.), but I read more of that in Mahrat’s post than perhaps there was to read in the first place.

    • Robert Smissen Of rural SA says:

      10:32pm | 03/11/11

      Exactly! ! Did the tosser/trainer talk about what makes a good mother? ? Of course not because “all” women are naturally fabulous mothers. This trainer needs to be sent away to re-educatin camp. Personally I think my daughter is a great mother because she was brought up by me

    • Nick says:

      12:17pm | 03/11/11

      cool story, bro

      Reply

    • adam says:

      02:14pm | 03/11/11

      tl;dr

    • Roger says:

      03:23pm | 03/11/11

      Very succinct Adam.  I’m sure there are stories with pictures elsewhere mate.  Hang in there.

    • CN says:

      04:36pm | 03/11/11

      @ Roger
      LMAO

    • Joey Joe Joe says:

      08:14am | 04/11/11

      STFU or GTFO

    • Erick says:

      12:26pm | 03/11/11

      The problem is not a lack of role-models for men. The problem is a systematic, decades long hate campaign against men that has been successfully conducted by feminists in the media, academia, and government.

      Reply

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      12:44pm | 03/11/11

      You forgot to mention the high amount of single mothers and/or ones that refuse to let the father have anything to do with the kid.

      It’s little wonder dads these days don’t have role models when they didn’t even have a dad themselves.

    • Leah says:

      01:09pm | 03/11/11

      Pretty sure lack of role models is worse then the ‘hate campaign’ in the media. I agree with what you’re getting at with the ‘hate campaign’ but the lack of role models is worse. There are far more kids out there with absentee dads (whether due to death, divorce, or drop-kick) than absentee mums. And boys can’t grow up to be men without a decent role model - and then how can THEY be a decent role model?

    • Bev says:

      01:34pm | 03/11/11

      I believe the problem goes deeper.  Men and women perform complimentary roles raising children.  They bring different skill sets to the table, both required.  Many of the fatherhood courses are motherhood centric and devised by feminists and/or women.  They try to teach men to be mothers instead of fathers.  As an example a recent study showed that the “rough house” most fathers engage in with their children (unlike a majority of mothers) would seem on the surface to be just men being little boys. It was noted during the study that fathers were imparting important lessons. While encouraging children to explore their physical limits it was found that fathers were quick to set limits as to what was acceptable and what was not (say punching and how hard for example).  They were teaching their children physical limits, responsible behaviour and that actions have consequences. It was speculated that these lessons cross over to other interactions and are very important in socializing children.

    • Shelly says:

      01:44pm | 03/11/11

      I am a single mum. I’ve raised my son with the assistance of my family and very little input from his father. To be fair, they are separated by half the globe. And to be very fair, to a large extent that was my decision based on the reality that child raising would be largely left to me and I could do that better surrounded by my family.

      The point I would make to Leah, is that children - male or female need good role models - both male and female.

      My son has grown up with male role models - some positive, some not so - uncles, great-uncles, grandfathers and great-grandfathers. He’s 15 and has a very well developed sense of self. He loves kids, and if there is a baby around you’d be flat out getting him to give up the cuddle time. He can cook and do basic DIY. He shows concern for others and has a plan for his future. He want to travel but he want to get a trade first. He enjoys spending time with his father (I buy the tickets) and harbours no ill-will to either of us for not being together and raising him in a “normal family.” According to him, most of his classmates aren’t being raised in “normal families”.

    • I hate pies says:

      02:09pm | 03/11/11

      Erick, I’m always comforted by the fact that men can take back the power in an instant if they choose to. Everyone knows it, they just don’t talk about it. I have a little chuckle to myself when I see these women pretending that they have power over us.

    • Direct says:

      03:28pm | 03/11/11

      Leah, the hate campaign in then media is causing the lack of role models.

    • Martin says:

      03:49pm | 03/11/11

      @ Erick The problem is not a lack of role-models for men. As the article states, the problem is a lack of proper role-models for men. Some are nothing more than self-pitying sooks. HTFU, princess.

    • Stickman says:

      04:16pm | 03/11/11

      Erick, your browser must be playing up, you’re not the first comment.  I must confess to reading the comments in anticipation though, and you didn’t disappoint.  Copy and paste is such a time saver.

      As with the author, my role models for masculinity and fatherhood were my father and grandfather, and uncles to a lesser extent.  Most were things I try and emulate, some are points I chose to go the opposite direction to them, but role models existed then, and I am now a role model for my 2 kids.  Hopefully I can teach them well.  They really do change every facet of your life.

    • Erick says:

      04:36pm | 03/11/11

      @Direct - “the hate campaign in then media is causing the lack of role models.”

      This is also true. Insofar as boys lack male role models, this is largely the fault of feminism.

      Feminists have successfully lobbied to create divorce laws and sexist family courts that exclude men from parenthood. This results in a lack of fathers as role models.

      Feminists have successfully portrayed all men as potential paedophiles. This results in a lack of male teachers as role models.

      The damage to children, and to society, has been severe.

    • Daemon says:

      05:42pm | 03/11/11

      @Direct and @Erick, why are we afraid to use the “F” word when talking about women and “our kids”. We see regular items in the media about what is happening to our boys, and to a lesser degree our girls, but the Elephant in the room, the “F” word, is FEAR.

      Men are afraid to take on jobs with kids as a direct result of the feminazi’s programming of people to expect that a man working with kids is a paedophile. We can’t change it because the efforts of the short-haired overall wearing brigade has worked a treat, and as a result, they are breeding the “man” out of boys, including in the class room, because the feminazis do get employed there, whereas blokes won’t even go for teaching jobs in the age group where a male influence is at its most important. That is the 4-8 year bracket.

      The scariest of the whole lot, is that the best teachers of boys, are men. Not short haired, overall clad wimmin, with 3 letter names.

    • egg says:

      06:06pm | 03/11/11

      @erick, of course it is, it’s just one massive conspiracy. oh, when will the madness stop? won’t someone please take control of these uppity, unruly feminists? who can be trusted to take on this epic role and save men from the terror that is: WOMEN?

      there can be only one…

    • Fiona says:

      07:52pm | 03/11/11

      Erick and Daemon, please, please find a new track. Stop blaming women for EVERYTHING for the love of god.

    • Erick says:

      07:32am | 04/11/11

      @Fiona - I’m not blaming women at all. I’m blaming feminism.

      If feminists don’t like that, they should stop their hate campaigns.

    • A Nonny Mouse says:

      07:59am | 04/11/11

      @Erick

      Except you seem to believe that *every* woman is a nasty, evil feminist.

      If you don’t actually believe that, take a look at what you write, because that’s certainly the conclusion the majority comes to.

      And if the majority are ‘reading it wrong’, perhaps you aren’t stating it correctly.

    • Erick says:

      08:13am | 04/11/11

      @A Nony Mouse - If you believe that, you should take a look at what I actually write. And prove your opinion.

      For starters, why don’t you find a direct quote where I “seem to believe that *every* woman is a nasty, evil feminist”? It should be easy.

      Exact words and a link are required.

    • Daylight robbery says:

      08:14am | 04/11/11

      I lost my old man when I was 21.  Get up at 5, go to work in a dust bowl, come home, have a shower then go to hospital to midnight and watch your old man turn into a skeleton from 15 Stone to 6.5.

      Its all you’ll need to be a father, because you’ll be working like a dog and you will get no sleep.

      If you want to practice being a father, set your alarm for two hour intervals jumping out of bed and smell a turd.
      You can tell the calibre of your mates by their nappy changing & bathing skills.
      Never mind the men, ask the midwives about the women..  Daddies little princess isnt quite coping as well, its a bottle-fed era..

    • A Nonny Mouse says:

      09:04am | 04/11/11

      @Erick

      Sorry, I have better things to do than go back through posts.

      Ask yourself why so many people seem to think you believe every woman is a man hating feminist.

    • Erick says:

      10:24am | 04/11/11

      @A Nony Mouse - So, when asked to provide even one bit of evidence for your claim, you turn tail and run away!

      A lot of people smear me because they don’t like the way I challenge their bigoted ideology. But when asked to prove these smears - they never can.

      That’s because you can’t prove something that is a lie.

    • Shannon says:

      10:39am | 04/11/11

      Erick, I’m a Feminist, I don’t hate men, I just want equality, Nothing else, I want to earn the same as a male in the same role as me, I don’t expect to earn more, or earn the same doing a job i cant do, eg. Labourer.

      My boyfriend and I are to be married next year, and we want kids, He is also a feminist, so believes what I do, If we have kids, and god forbid we break up, I will let him see them as much as he wants, We are heading into this marriage with nothing, and I don’t expect more if we end it.
      Not all Feminists are like the ones you describe, in fact, I have never met one who is like you describe.

    • Rossco says:

      12:46pm | 04/11/11

      Shannon, how about just being an ‘equalist’ instead? The problem with feminism is it’s a flawed ideology that attempts to put women ahead of men, not on an equal par. Sure it had some benefits in its initial stages in history but has now largely become a force for illogical demonising behaviour and the discrimination of both men and women.

      ‘I want to earn the same as a male in the same role as me’ then you will. But continually we get whining from feminazi organisations and biased feminist journalists based on nonsense that women still earn less than men. Of course they always look past the hard facts that a lot of women choose part time work or work in women dominated fields like aged care work (where some men do work and get paid the exact same as women.) They also look past the facts that women live longer than men in society.

      Right now we also have discriminatory practices such as governments favouring women for executive job roles merely because they are women, and not the best candidate for the job, to the detriment of both sexes. One, because it discriminates against men, and two, devalues in society and creates disillusion in the workforce for the women who actually do deserve the jobs they gain.

    • Condor says:

      12:44pm | 03/11/11

      Joking about turning testicles into a purse gets a wince not a laugh. Ouch!

      Reply

    • MarkS says:

      12:55pm | 03/11/11

      Jokes belittling men are funny, jokes belittling women are illegal. Men are the Juden of Feminazi’s.

      Reply

    • marley says:

      01:16pm | 03/11/11

      I call Godwin’s Law.  You lose.

    • MarkS says:

      01:27pm | 03/11/11

      Meh, not a law I am obliged to follow & nor can you enforce said.

    • gg says:

      02:08pm | 03/11/11

      MarkS Im guessing from your reply you dont know what Godwins Law is, true it cant be enforced but you certainly followed it.

    • Erick says:

      04:09pm | 03/11/11

      Godwin’s law doesn’t automatically equate with a “lose”. That’s just a fiction that some people have added to the original Godwin’s Law.

    • Yuri says:

      05:26pm | 03/11/11

      Godwin’s Law is not like a legal law that can be broken, it is more like a law of physics that is always proved correct.

    • marley says:

      05:59pm | 03/11/11

      @MarkS - can’t enforce it, and I don’t want to. It applies all the same. 

      @Erick - I double-checked (admittedly on wiki, but what the hell) and when you make a hyperbolic claim you lose.  Comparing misandrist jokes to the Holocaust seems to me to be pretty hyberolic.

    • Erick says:

      06:23pm | 03/11/11

      @marley - In case you hadn’t noticed, today and earlier this week there were links to web forums where radical feminists were seriously discussing the systematic extermination of men.

      In that context, the comparison to Nazis isn’t far fetched - it’s quite accurate.

    • marley says:

      06:07am | 04/11/11

      @Erick - yes, I had noticed. and invoking the Holocaust in that context would arguably have been okay.  Invoking it in this one is, as I said, hyperbolic

    • MarkS says:

      07:46am | 04/11/11

      @GG
      Do you always guess wrong then?

      @Marley
      Did not compare misandrist jokes to the Holocaust. Who mentioned the Holocaust first? You. Godwins law you lose. See two can play this silly game.

    • marley says:

      08:08am | 04/11/11

      @MarkS -  “Juden” and “Feminazis.” Perhaps you didn’t understand that you were making a reference to the holocaust, but I did.

    • VVS says:

      08:17am | 04/11/11

      Jeez, just hurry up and have sex already!

      All this bickering aint hiding that sexual frustration…

    • Shane* says:

      08:41am | 04/11/11

      @VVS That would be fine if it weren’t for the abonimation that is PIV sex.

    • dms says:

      04:46pm | 04/11/11

      @Shane*
      - massive win

    • fairsfair says:

      01:04pm | 03/11/11

      I don’t mean to sound insulting, but this is naff in the extreme.

      Congratulations to you and your wife on the imminent arrival of your daughter. I wish you all the best - but that is where it ends I’m afraid. I don’t really care that you will have to need to use a microwave more often than Garry Meaghan recommends, learn to adjust to a child inside of your house and you might have cheese on toast one night because you are too tired to cook. That is not interesting or groundbreaking or a learned skill - that is life.

      I’m a bit shocked that you attended a day long parenting course anyway. Maybe you should stop worrying about what other people think and what you think you should be doing and just wait for your baby to arrive before you adjust your lifestyle to accommodate it? People should not need to be told during “group brainstorming” that having a baby is a massive upheaval.

      STFU Parents - seriously nobody gives a shit (except your baby - totes can’t wait for you upload those photos on facebook and bring that up in the lunchroom).

      Reply

    • Anna C says:

      01:29pm | 03/11/11

      Fairsfair’s right. What’s with this sudden need for everyone having children to bore us senseless with articles about becoming a parent. You’d think that these people were the first ever to have children. Newsflash: people have been having children for millenia. Your thoughts and experiences are only interesting to you and your mother’s group so SFA.

    • PTom says:

      01:34pm | 03/11/11

      @fairsfair
      Yes you did mean to sound insulting.
      Just how many times have you told people that you single and proud? We get it your are bored, but being single does not give you any rights to tell parents to STFU.
      How about taking a leaf out of your own book when it comes to parenting topic and STFU as you did not need to read or even comment on topic you are not interested in.

    • fairsfair says:

      02:04pm | 03/11/11

      Agreed Anna - the culture of the child is unbearable. Babies of my family and friends mean the world to me, but I don’t think for a second that anyone else would give a crap about their milestones or their arrival. Whoopdeedoo.

      I am not some heartless barron shrew - I am just trying to be realistic - nobody gives a cracker about how others are coping with their baby. Why - because they either have their own or something else in their life keeping them up at night, stopping them from cooking a decent meal and relaxing in front of the telly for 30 mintues a day. Oh and those that think other parents care and want to hear… WRONG… they just want to use it as a platform to talk about their own kids. And tell you how well they did things. Its interesting to listen to parents communicate. They are not having a conversation - they are talking at each other. 

      PTom, sometimes reality is insulting to some, even when it is not said with intent.  I’m not “proud” of being single and I don’t posit for a second that my lifestyle is one that should be followed. But I don’t sit around going to classes about “coping with my singledom” and getting articles published about my experiences somehow trying to prove to people that it is OK to not feel totally in control of their lives 100% of the time. I don’t sit down with my friends who have partners and put the hard word on them to up stumps and leave. Be single. Its totally ok for them to openly disapprove of my lifestyle though and spruik how good they have it…You are right PTom - I am not interested in it - but I am bombarded with it in everyday life and have every right to object to it. Enough already. Even *some* parents are sick of it.

    • NicoleG says:

      02:35pm | 03/11/11

      As the mother of three darling children, I feel fully qualified to say STFU parents! I am sorry, but I don’t give a shit. Stop shoving up my freaking nose. If it was just on the odd occasion, well fair enough. But it’s bloody well all the damn time. I don’t give a shit what little Payten (WTF do they get these names from?) ate for lunch or how cute it was to see little Jak roll over, blah blah blah. Fairs is right, even some of us parents have had a gutful!

    • Lloyd says:

      02:45pm | 03/11/11

      Bravo fairsfair. Dull with a capital D.

    • Phil says:

      02:47pm | 03/11/11

      Anna and fairsight. If you are not intersted in parenting or babies, why are you reading this article? Is it warm and dry under your bridge waiting for the billy goats?

    • JS says:

      03:06pm | 03/11/11

      Totally agree Fairs, my parents managed to raise 4 kids with no fanfare expected, they just went about their business and did an awesome job.

      thanks mum and dad!

    • Matt says:

      03:17pm | 03/11/11

      Uhh, you guys sound like a bunch of morons. You read an article titled ‘Learning to be a dad’s the same as learning to be a man’, and were bored when it was about parenting?

      Maybe don’t read articles about parenting if you’re not interested in parenting? O.o

      Although I must say your stupidity did give me a good laugh so I can’t complain! smile

    • D says:

      03:30pm | 03/11/11

      @fairsfair

      You did mean to sound insulting.  You crafted your comments in an insulting manner when you could have conveyed your points differently without resorting to being insulting.  You should own your behaviour instead of trying to slide out of it.

      Why did you read a parenting article if you weren’t interested?  That’s a genuine serious question.  Why read something you clearly have no interst in, something that you find so distasteful that you’re compelled to write several comments that express exactly how little you like these kinds of articles.

      You inflicted it on yourself.  No one made you click through, no one made you read to the end.  No parent forced you to read this article.  You chose to read it and you chose to have your rant.  Don’t blame other people for your choices.

    • Steve says:

      03:32pm | 03/11/11

      Good one fairs fair.
      Ive got kids, its not that hard, there are now 7 billon of us on this planet, its not new raising kids.
      What other shyster courses are out there? How to get dressed in the morning, what TV show to watch?

    • Roger says:

      03:39pm | 03/11/11

      @fairsfair.  Sounds like someone needs a little quiet time to settle down.  Bitter much?

      So what you’re basically saying is ‘ignorance is bliss’?  One of the biggest changes in a persons life is about to happen and you’re saying they shouldn’t bother to read anything or take a class to help with this change? 

      As the old saying goes fairsfair, better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you’re an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt.

    • fairsfair says:

      04:17pm | 03/11/11

      hmmm, interesting split in responses.

    • Elizabeth1 says:

      07:35pm | 03/11/11

      I dont know how much parenting you do Steve but I would say having kids is very hard.  Without doubt the hardest and most challenging test of patience, bank balance, autonomy and endurance that I have ever done.  Relentless.  Fairs think very hard before you ever go down that road. Seriously you get to enjoy them totally as adults but some of the years in between are the pits.

    • Fiona says:

      07:58pm | 03/11/11

      Bit harsh FF. Here’s a news flash, no one really believes just how much your life will be changed after baby.
      Anna C, everyone acts like their baby is the baby Jesus.
      News for both of you, the culture of the child is alive, because reproducing is a basic part of life. Just because you’re not in that stage doesn’t mean that others aren’t even mildly interested.

    • Meh says:

      10:15pm | 03/11/11

      My kid throws tantrums too.

    • Stephan says:

      01:12pm | 03/11/11

      The title of this article equates learning to be a Dad is the same as learning to be a man.

      First up. The simile is pure BS.  A “Dad” is the male pole of the relationship called “Parent”.  You can’t have a good “Dad” without a good “Mum”.  Even a same sex relationship had better work that one out.

      Secondly - Learning to be a good “Man” will very often take decades (as much as 80 years) while learning to be a good “Dad” must happen in a much shorter period.

      I’m not a “Dad” and am unlikely to be.  I don’t claim to be a “Man” but I am a male.  Not gay either - just not impressed.

      Reply

    • Matt says:

      03:25pm | 03/11/11

      Uhh yeah, you can have a good dad without a good mum. Some dads raise kids on their own you know. I don’t see your point at all.

      As a ‘man’ and a ‘dad’ I think it has some fair points. You gotta learn to take care of others as a dad, you gotta learn to let your ego down at times, you gotta learn that there are more important things than your own self gratification. In my view, when we see a male display these qualities we typically think of them as a ‘man’ instead of a whiny self-centred child in an adult body.

      I dare say if you’re still a whiny self-centred child at 80 you’re going to stay that way until you die.

    • palone says:

      01:14pm | 03/11/11

      I don’t think my Dad went to a tutorial to learn how to be a father or how to be a man, I can’t remember Grandpa mentioning a “school for Dads”. Maybe it slipped his mind, but I figure that they simply did what I did. Raised their children in the best manner possible, always remembering that the child comes first.
      No fancy cop-outs, like “in spite of feminists”,  and, “the world’s rooned for men” and similar weak, pathetic excuses. Just getting on with living up to one’s responsibilities. It’s not a chore, it’s a bloody joy.
      A childless man can be a man for all that, but the whining, whingeing, anyman, who must blame others for his own shortcomings can never be a man. And what sort of a man would allow himself to be stood over by some women’s group without doing something about it. Not a Dad, methinks. And certainly not a real man. Wallowing in self-pity, and waiting for the world to take over his role as both a father and a man.  Shame, shame, shame.

      Reply

    • PTom says:

      01:54pm | 03/11/11

      I think you missed there is a generation gap between what my dad did to what I will do or the aurthor will do.

      I only saw my dad at dinner or on the weekend when he was not out with his mates. More dads are staying home and helping, but I disagree with the aurthor about using our dads a role model.
      If I did I would have been unemployed drunk broke from gambling.

      But I do agree that we need better role model but it does not help when the society is putting down dads specially since more childern are grow up without them the role should be encouraged.

    • david says:

      01:15pm | 03/11/11

      Lincoln - congratulations. I hope that parenthood is filled with delight for you.

      Don’t worry about passing on lessons. Just be there…and be yourself. Your child will find all that she needs - just as you did.

      Reply

    • Jules says:

      05:00pm | 03/11/11

      Completely agree - there is no rule book for parenting but its just about being present in your child’s life and giving all that you have to the best of your ability… the rest will fall into place.  Wish you and your new family all the best and may it be everything you all wish for!

    • Lisa says:

      01:16pm | 03/11/11

      Unfortunately for some, positive role model’s aren’t always readily available, but it doesn’t have to be all doom and gloom.  My man grew up with a dad who worked and spent time at the pub.  His mum did everything else, but left when he was 12. My dad was the same but mum put up with him and we are all pretty close now.  Luckily for me he is the opposite to his dad - great around the house, the best dad in the world to our 8 month old daughter and a tradesman too (and I really do know how lucky I am).  He loves being a dad, but I had to wait years and do a lot of begging to get him to pro-create.  Being a parent has come more naturally to him that to me which was a bit of a shock. He wasn’t sure if he wanted kids and I think a large part of the reasoning for this was because his only experience of family was nothing to brag about.  We got there in the end though and I honestly think with both of our upbringings that for some people having a bad role model around can be just as beneficial as having a good one!

      Reply

    • Shannon says:

      10:51am | 04/11/11

      Im in a similar boat, except rols reversed, My father is the drop kick and my parnters is a hero.
      I only saw my father when he’d come home from the pub, and wake us up to watch him beat and abuse my mum. When mum left him with us, he’d stalk us, he kidnapped my brother, and tried to run me over for “leaving him” even now, 11 years on he still rocks up to my house drunk and abuses me.
      My partners dad is amazing, I love him like he is my dad, since we met he would bend over backwards to make sure im ok, He took me under his wing and hasnt let go. He treats me like his daughter, He has helped me get over the pain my own father left…

      Some men are men when children are born, others will always be a child.

    • Ted says:

      01:17pm | 03/11/11

      In my humble opinion I think the author is right in some ways about the lack of decent role models for men. I myself am a recent father to a wonderful and cheeky little man 3 months old. I keep thinking back to when I was a kid and any advice my father gave me… And that was none! It has made me come to realise that I can be a good role model for my son regardless of whether my dad was a role model for me. It’s about standing up and taking responsibility. “Be a man.”

      Reply

    • Blind Freddy says:

      01:35pm | 03/11/11

      I agree. If there is one thing fathers can do - be a better father than their own. Not necessarily the best- just better. Its called progress.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:51pm | 03/11/11

      There’s an important other side to this: as a bloke, your father was one of the biggest influences on how you developed emotionally—whether he was there or not, and probably moreso if he wasn’t.  His example had a profound impact on the way you relate to other people and even to yourself.

      That being so, it’s very important for your own psychological well-being to at least understand where your father was coming from when he was raising you - and to try and resolve those issues with him if you can.  (Women need to do the same with regard to their mothers, but that’s a separate issue.)

      Read Steve Biddulph on this.  Very important.

    • Ted says:

      06:34am | 04/11/11

      You are absolutely right @Blind Freddy. Learn from their shortcomings and progress.
      @St Michael - That’s the thing he wasn’t that emotional as far as I can remember so it was my mother who had the influence on how I emotionally developed. Alas all I have now are memories of my father, for he is deceased. And my duty is to pass on these memories and tell my son about him (the good and the bad by the way).

    • ibast says:

      01:45pm | 03/11/11

      “One therapist told us she is seeing a growing crisis of confidence in some men, and a lack of respect towards them coming from women.”

      As a society we are expecting men to participate more in the intricacies of the upbringing of their children but we still expect them to do everything they did before.  Men are expected to earn a good wage and make the best “moves” for their career, but heaven forbid they miss Betsy’s year two end of year play.

      Reply

    • HappyCynic says:

      02:35pm | 03/11/11

      One does not exclude the other.  If you can’t balance out all the responsibilities of being a parent with carving out a good career for yourself (and your family) then why bother with either?

      It’s not hard, you just have to be assertive enough in both fields to express what’s most important.

    • natweeza says:

      02:49pm | 03/11/11

      Just like women are still expected to do the bulk of the childcare and housework, as well as contribute financially. Everyone’s roles are changing. Big deal.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      02:29pm | 03/11/11

      While there are imperfections in the article, and what is ever perfect anyway, I do applaud a positive commentary on men. It is so rare these days.

      Reply

    • Stockinbingal roo says:

      02:53pm | 03/11/11

      We all learn from our parent’s mistakes. Some of us learn so much that we choose not to have children, and it’s hardly selfish sitting in a retirement home with no visitors.

      Reply

    • Anne71 says:

      12:59pm | 04/11/11

      Unfortunately, having children is no guarantee that you’ll get visitors once you’re in a retirement home. I’ve known quite a few old people whose kids don’t come next or near them.  I’m sure many of you will smugly assume that they must have been “bad parents”, but that’s not necessarily the case.

    • CJ says:

      03:16pm | 03/11/11

      Congratulations Lincoln. Little girls (and boys) rock. Having had two (girls) 13 years apart, I can attest that none of the “dads-must-be-this-and-that ... man-masculine-role-model-bread-winner-man-man-dad-dad-don’t-forget-to-be-like-this-blah-blah-blah” stuff will ever enter your head after you get yer little pumpkin in yer arms. You’ll be far too busy doing the basics and feeling the deepest, most pure love there is. Good luck to you and Mrs Lincoln. Have a blast.

      Reply

    • Cath says:

      03:16pm | 03/11/11

      Best of luck Lincoln Archer and congrats.  And you are pretty much spot on, it is a learning experience and one that should help you grow and mature as a man.  Kids are pretty resilient btw, so don’t stress too much about ‘making mistakes’!  Just love them, and keep loving their mother.

      Reply

    • Dementer says:

      03:20pm | 03/11/11

      While the article has some nice sentiments we know that children do not need to have a mother and a father. Children only need one role model in their live and that having both can be confusing and disturbign for a child. It would be better to have 2 parents of the same sex.

      Reply

    • Innocent says:

      07:11pm | 03/11/11

      Well that makes a change from all the comments on that two gay dads bringing home 4 babies article.

      For most of times kids really only had one parent at home anyway, the father was usually out at work all day. Getting the men involved is pretty new.

    • Shane* says:

      03:32pm | 04/11/11

      @Demented, you mispelt your own name, you crafty troll you…

    • Dan the dad says:

      03:57pm | 03/11/11

      I felt good reading that.
      I’m a proud dad that takes the job seriously and I get sick of notion that “dads are useless”.

      Women reckon they get no thanks for their role in parenting, yeah right, TRY BEING A MAN !.

      I wish the media, TV shows, Ads etc would stop making us look stupid too.

      Reply

    • Bomb78 says:

      04:31pm | 03/11/11

      Lincoln: my first born was a son, but it wasn’t until the second time round when my wife presented me a little girl that I felt like a man - all lion protecting his cubs. I’ve made this statement to lots of people - ‘my son made me a father, my daughter made me a man’ - and it seems women don’t get it, but lots of men do. There is something inherent in men about protecting women, something women probably can’t understand. And who better to protect and nurture that the little facsimile of my beautiful wife?
      I have seen good male role models in my family, as well as strong female ones. There’s a couple of dodgy ones too, but they help provide perspective. But knowing the sacrifices and effort of my parents, some of which only became apparent once I had my own children, inspires me to be the father that my children deserve.
      Enjoy fatherhood. Nothing in this world beats the first cuddle with a newborn.

      Reply

    • Zeta says:

      04:36pm | 03/11/11

      You ever the hear the one about the violin maker who’s asked, ‘how do you make a violin?’ and he says, ‘you take a piece of wood, and you remove everything that isn’t a violin.’

      You take a boy, and you remove everything that isn’t a man, then, he’s a man.

      The problem is society keeps wanting to leave these unfinished, boy-edges on everything, like a lack of responsibility, like a lack of respect, an inability to sacrifice for others - and they still call that unmade wreck a man.

      It’s not, any more than a tree trunk is a violin.

      Reply

    • Hermano says:

      07:58am | 04/11/11

      That’s the most profound thing you’ve ever said, Zeta.
      Sort of like becoming a man means putting away childish things: it’s defined as much by what is absent as what is present.

    • Debbie says:

      05:03pm | 03/11/11

      Good article, I have seen my husband grow into a real man, as he has grown into his role as a father of two daughters. It really does take a man and a woman to raise children, as we do it very differently. The way my husband interacts with the girls is very different to how I do, and they are both necessary. I do believe that you don;t really become a man until you learn the responsibilities of being a father and take those on board.

      I know that many single parents, both men and women do a great job of raising their kids in very difficult circumstances, but also believe that kids need positive role models of both sexes when growing up.

      Good luck to your and your wife on what lies ahead being parents, enjoy it and go with the flow, do the best you can, as we all make mistakes.  Never be afraid of learning from others, it doesn’t all come instinctively, and lots of people have good advice which will really help. A real man is never afraid to ask for help and admit he can learn from others!

      Reply

    • Eva says:

      07:40am | 04/11/11

      So Debbie,

      do you also believe that you don’t really become a woman until you become a mother, learn the responsibilities and take them on board?

    • Debbie says:

      09:02pm | 07/11/11

      Actually I do believe you don;t really grow into a real woman with all the various aspects of that until you do have children. There is a whole part of yourself you do not access and do not even know exists until you have kids.

    • Damo says:

      07:53pm | 03/11/11

      I can’t afford to have kids and pay off a mortgage, and bills, and petrol and, um, oh yeah, eat. I’m seem to be one of few who is self aware of it.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      08:35pm | 03/11/11

      Children change a man’s impulse from the serious to the humorous.
      They alter his rythm ... rithm ...(this word is crap !), and make the masculine entirely reponsive ... therefore, feminine.
      One can’t but help delight in the instinctive wants of a child when they spot someone their own age, (and I’ve noticed that, the sex of the observed is immaterial) and they stare, stall, and tug at dad’s ,(mum, at this stage, is paying the fare) arm, and wanting a playful introduction, via, possibly, a lemonade.

      There is a moment in a film called Back to the Future, when Marty Mc Fly’s father finally becomes a Man.
      It’s an excellent scene, (and a damn fine movie) and all you see is his relationship with his kids ... relaxed, charming and only slightly cynical.

      Good fathers should let their limbs hang.
      Frown a bit, (mourn cardigans) and they go travelling with their kids.
      (With Mums, but only as navigator ... women, when they travel, always want to bathe.)

      Reply

    • Christine says:

      10:00pm | 03/11/11

      Don’t rule out losing all that ‘boy stuff’ with your daughter. My dad was thrilled when he found out he was having a boy after having me. Finally, someone to play and talk footy with! Have a beer with! Talk about the economy, and trucks, and…other things men talk about.

      To this day, I am the only person he can comfortably talk to about all of those things. We both love football, we both love a good glass of whiskey. And incidentally, the most important person for my brother in terms of teaching him how to be a man, was the guidance of his older sister. Women tend to have a better sense of what makes a man a dud, anyhow.

      Reply

    • AnIdiotAbroad says:

      12:06am | 04/11/11

      Good luck with your impending addition, but forget the classes. Mate, all parents worry about everything with their first but if you have more you will be wondering why you wasted all that time worrying about such bs. Spend more time going to nice restaurants with your partner while you ethically can.

      Reply

    • Shane* says:

      08:09am | 04/11/11

      I’m curious as to why some comments have been deleted?

      Reply

    • Kipling says:

      08:17am | 04/11/11

      Don’t know what course you did. I am intrigued though how much time was spent in the course talking about important things like building a loving, honest and reliable relationship with your child.
      I spent many years working specifically with men about parenting issues and this was consitently the most helpful piece of work the majority of the men got. Reinforcing with them that just being the best man they could be (whatever that looked like) was a key to that relationship building stuff.
      I suspect the course you did may have focussed specifically on issues of dealing with new born babies for first time parents, though that is a guess on my part.
      Was there one or two facilitators, what gender was the facilitator and did they explain why they would do a course with both partners there.
      A small facet that I noticed working with mixed groups, men are often (NOT ALWAYS) quite happy in a mixed group to sit back and let the women do the talking and then, after the event, wonder why they did not get much out of the course. On the other hand, women also demonstrated they are happy for this to be the case also and then they wonder why the men did not “get it”...
      Clearly, men need to talk about this stuff with other men and work out what their role really needs to look like for themselves and then work on that.
      It doesn’t seem anything your little group touched on came anywhere near this.
      Your point though about what you learned from your father, grandfather et al was well made and right on the money (at least in my opinion).
      Whilst parenting is and should be a shared resonsibility, there is still validity in men working out there stuff with other men.
      We no longer have the kind of community that men can freely discuss real issues over their fence (as it were)  and we have systematically moved away from the very supportive extended family models previously utilised quite naturally. This has all contributed to men’s roles in society and particularly family having changed. As some posters might like to simplify this and wrap it all up to neatly just blame the feminist movement, that is simply put, only a small part of a much bigger issue and in no way addresses solutions that are needed.
      It was also good that you articulated your recognition of how important a father’s role is in raising daughters. Your behaviour towards your wife, children and the society broadly, how you manage problems and how you demonstrate emotions all go to forming a blue print for your children on what a man is.
      Good luck with your child and congradulations.

      Reply

    • sharon says:

      01:43pm | 04/11/11

      Congrats to you and your Mrs, this is possibly going to be the biggest learning curve you and your wife have had since you were children youselves. Do all the parenting courses you want, read as many parenting books as you like but remember the lessons don’t really begin until you get home from the hospital and are standing over your little sunshines cot thinking wtf am I supposed to do now. If you and your wife are true to yourselves comunicate with each other trust your instincts your well on the way to being great parents. I personaly believe that if kids know that they are loved by thier family then 90 percent of the work is done. If you want to be a good role model in your childrens life just be true to yourself but remember it only takes a man and a women to have a child, it takes a whole village to raise them. Also get some sleep know you’re going to need it. Good luck and have fun.

      Reply

    • jim morris says:

      07:18am | 05/11/11

      Feminism has been sistermatically degrading everything maculine for 30+ years but some time soon when they suddenly need men the reality of what they have done will become apparent.

      Reply
 
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