Perhaps the elite all-male college at Sydney University, St Paul’s, needs to get some rugby league players to talk to its members about respecting women.

Gothic: St Paul's college in Sydney University

The ranks of the elite who would decry league players as “boofheads” and would have been most vocally repulsed by the exposure of player attitudes to the opposite sex have been revealed as nurturing a virtually identical culture of the sexual objectification of women.

Rugby league teams aren’t known for being overrun with players who are also top-flight academics but they could probably teach the boys at St Paul’s a thing or two. The students are supposed to be high achievers but for outright misogyny it’s pretty hard to beat setting up a Facebook group that basically endorses rape.

The group, which has been shut down, was called “Define Statutory” and the membership, mostly from St Paul’s college, described themselves as “anti-consent”.

Anyone who has spent time socialising with the certain species of young man that can come from a monied family won’t be entirely surprised by this. Rich kids are often the most boorish of carousers, the guys who end up singing with their pants around their ankles at the end of the night after engaging in hours of drinking games and forcing others around them to down their beers in one go.

And when they are exclusively in the company of other males their attitudes to women can be shocking.

One former St Paul’s lodger I spoke to today - he joined the college two decades ago after being expelled from another for an alcohol-related incident - said the Facebook group smacked of an undergraduate joke gone wrong. But a culture which gives rise to the establishment of an “anti-consent” group clearly has some soul-searching to do.

St Paul’s college is one of a number of residential colleges at Sydney University but it’s the most arcane. According to its website it is Australia’s oldest university college. Dinner from Monday to Friday involves dressing in a jacket, tie and academic gown. Fees are over $7100 per semester. It’s not exactly battler country.

The warden of St Paul’s has issued an extensive statement in response to the revelations. But the master of Wesley college, another in Sydney University, Rev David Russell, spoke openly about the culture of sexism among male students:

... in his eight years in the role he had spoken to several female students who felt they had to leave college. ‘‘They say ‘I just don’t feel safe.’‘’

For Mr Russell, ‘‘this is a story that has to be told. There is no question in my mind, women are seen as meat. That is the awful, ugly truth of it.’‘

One final thought: many college graduates will go on to careers as barristers, politicians, businesspeople and thought leaders of tomorrow. Will they be taking their college culture with them?

50 comments

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    • Tom says:

      01:13pm | 09/11/09

      Private schools, army, football clubs, doesn’t matter how well educated they are or how much money they have, lock a group of males up together, add alcohol and they turn into animals

    • Max says:

      01:25pm | 09/11/09

      Of course they will take their culture with them. It is perfectly acceptable to have those values in Australia. It will be a great joke at all the old boys reunions. Just don’t do it in public – which is the young men’s mistake. Women are meat, pornography and the media says so. No doubt all the parent’s contacts and money will be utilised to sweep this under the carpet.

      God forbid they would have to face the consequences their actions. Noo ne will money or privilege does these days.

    • Tim says:

      01:28pm | 09/11/09

      C’mon do you really think this facebook page was serious?
      These kids may be idiots, but the media beatup over this issue is ridiculous.

    • Emma says:

      01:28pm | 09/11/09

      Yes. And just as their fathers (who are the barristers, politicians, businesspeople and thought leaders of today) protected them, they will protect their sons. God help their daughters.

    • Chris says:

      01:39pm | 09/11/09

      Is it just me, or is the statement from the Warden weak as ... I don’t see a strong statement as to how the College will track down the perpetrators, name and shame them, and dishonorably throw them out. I don’t see a statement of renewed emphasis in induction and internal culture to stamp out chauvinism and misogyny

      A stronger statement with a sense of shame rather than a ‘great institution’ apologetic might have been more re-assuring as to how seriously this matter is to be addressed.

      One last act from within the College would also be re-assuring - some male member coming forward remorsefully and repentantly and providing the information that could lead to identification and explulsion.

    • SM says:

      01:57pm | 09/11/09

      Why isn’t Facebook required to vet the content that gets uploaded?

    • H says:

      02:04pm | 09/11/09

      These boys are stupid, but I think many young men feel like while women are protected by the greatest extents of the law, men are hard done by.

      Look at entering university, getting jobs, applying for scholarships and you see how many “initiatives” there are which are for women only. If they had the same thing for men it would be sexist.

      I think these misogynist attitudes come from men being exposed to conflicting messages about women. These boys are especially susceptible as they are in an all male environment. They learn about suffrage and feminism, but in real life they’re confronted with images of women being vain and vapid. They’re taught to respect women, but they see nothing to respect.

      There are so many issues where men draw the short straw, and I think these issues will build up into some type of disastrous explosion (such as this one)

    • RGG says:

      02:19pm | 09/11/09

      I find it very interesting that of all the stories concerning this matter, not one actually has any excerpts or screencaps of the group in question. All the media is reporting is that a “pro-rape” club has been created.

      Logical questions:

      1. Is anyone really mysoginistic enough to create a blunt “we are in favour of rape” facebook group under their own name?
      2. Why hasn’t the objectionable material on the site been reported in the various stories?
      3. Why are people taking what the media says at face value when there is a complete lack of evidence that this was anything other than a perfectly justifiable group concerning (for example) the false reporting of rape, or a tongue-in-cheek joke evidenced by hyperbole and highly sarcastic language?

      Facts please, not opinion.

    • Shama says:

      02:26pm | 09/11/09

      Is Eric now posting as H?

      Also are they pro-rape and anti-consent in regards to women or does it extend to embrace all of humanity (and why not thrown in sheep whilst we are at it)? In which case if they encounter a big, burly bloke - or a woman to satisfy Eric’s requirement of strict equivalance - so inclined they might as well lie down and enjoy it.

    • H says:

      02:28pm | 09/11/09

      Hey all, just to let you know I am the H that most often comments on this site and am not the H @ 3:04pm. Since this has happened to me twice I will now change my posting name from hencfore to H of SA

    • iansand says:

      02:31pm | 09/11/09

      My guess is that 95% of the residents are fine, upstanding, decent blokes.  Even after they have had a few drinks.  That does not excuse the behaviour of the 5%, but those 5% should notdrag down the rest.

      That is not to say that the 5% should not be thrown out - their absence would probably make life more tolerable for the rest, as these blokes are likely to be the noisy bullies of the place.  In other words they are deficient on many different social levels.

    • Dave says:

      02:33pm | 09/11/09

      Yet another story that involves the word Rape and another pathetic journalistic attempt to milka few extra miles at the expense of Rugby League players.

      Since the Coffs Harbour media beat up of several years past how many League players have been convicted of Rape?

      0.

      Now lets look at the AFL…...

    • H of SA says:

      02:34pm | 09/11/09

      Shama, i normally am H -you will see me especially in threads on refugees. I am most definately not the H @ 3:04pm today. As per my above Post I am now posting as H of SA to avoid future confusion.

    • H says:

      02:36pm | 09/11/09

      Shame I have no idea what you just said, and I have no idea who Eric is.

      Just thought I would let you know

    • Chris says:

      02:38pm | 09/11/09

      H@3.04pm - you have got to be joking!

      Let me get this straight - we should feel sorry for these young men because they are confused by conflicting media images of women, demoralised by (alleged) affirmative action, and unable to battle against an all male environment? Clearly, they are not going to be up to the positions of corporate and civic leadership to which they aspire.

      These young men (not boys) are arguably the brightest of the bright. How does making excuses for crass and dehumanising attitudes and behavior help them or anyone else? They should, to use an old expression, be ‘man enough’ to accept that their behavior was reprehensible and that their fundamental attitudes need rethinking.

    • Andrew Fox-Russell says:

      02:43pm | 09/11/09

      Another day,another college-bashing article. Paul, where do you get off with your stereotyping? FYI, not all those who live at colleges are somehow “elistists”. My working class parents allowed me to live at St Andrews (I also worked summers ansd during semester to help pay for it all), where very few of my fellow residents were from welathy families (when I weighted up the costs, college was actually cheaper than flatting). Not one person I went to college with has turned out disfunctional or has raped anyone. I would also safely say the girls in the inter-collegiate system were made to feel safer as well, as quite often we drank at the same bars with the same groups of people, and were able to walk back to room safely in groups, knowing that if there was any trouble, you had 200 friends to rely on. I doubt that can be said for the general university population, or society in general.

    • H of NSW says:

      02:45pm | 09/11/09

      Sorry H of SA. I don’t usually comment on sites like these (moderated, corporate).

      Please feel free to use your normal alias.

    • H of SA says:

      02:47pm | 09/11/09

      H of NSW, no worries it was just an unfortunate coincidence. Its happened to me before so its a good catalyst to choose a more specific name anyway.

    • Freddo says:

      02:47pm | 09/11/09

      This Story rates—
      Moral Outrage Factor : 10
      Sensationalist Headlines: 10
      Media Beatup Facor: 10
      Actual Evidence, Contents or Screenshots from the Facebook Page: 0

      Great journalism, would read again.

    • stephen says:

      02:49pm | 09/11/09

      Perhaps the Uni’ lads had just been to a britney concert.

    • Jimbo says:

      02:53pm | 09/11/09

      H at 3.04pm represents the ‘sophisticated’ version of misogyny.  Poor widdle boys try hard to be good, its all those slutty girls who are at fault, goes this thinking. It’s pathetic. If these idiots ‘see nothing to respect’ as H puts it, perhaps they need to take a look in the mirror. It’s high time society took a real stand against violence against women.

    • Jen says:

      02:57pm | 09/11/09

      H (the 3.04 one) I must say I am more than a little petrubed by your idiotic comments.

      If only there were some “initiatives” for men. How about St Pauls college itself? More importantly how about all social spaces? Academia? Government? Business? Women are slowly conquering education, but conquering the workforce is a long way off. Why is it that women represent 60% of law grads and only 8% of partners? Maybe we do need a few “initiatives” to coerce those men in power to relinquish some of it to more capable women.

    • bbkay says:

      02:59pm | 09/11/09

      Andrew Fox-Russell, Never actually seen a college bashing article before, feeling victimised much?

      Also, was the double barrel surname adopted so your “working class” self could fit in with your upper class mates?

    • SM says:

      03:16pm | 09/11/09

      H@3.04

      On first reading, your post jumped out as perhaps the most confused piece of dribble ever posted here.

      On second reading though, I realised that it was tongue in cheek

      Nice post

    • kp says:

      03:30pm | 09/11/09

      H (3.04) - I cannot believe what I just read. You really are not the sharpest tool in the shed. Women have it easy and men don’t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF !!!!!! Are you kidding ????????? I am speechless at such a stupid comment.

    • tania perkins says:

      03:35pm | 09/11/09

      maybe if more decent guys told their boorish mates that inappropriate behaviour isn’t funny there would be less confusion for those who don’t know the difference

    • john says:

      03:43pm | 09/11/09

      as it has been presented, this story has no substance. it is not journalism but gossip. nothing that was allegedly written on this so called “pro-rape” site has been presented to the reader. this article has just provided an excuse for the politics of envy to be unleashed. if there was a pro-rape facebook site, that is a disgrace and those involved are despicable people but let’s calm down until we see the evidence.

    • vb says:

      03:46pm | 09/11/09

      It doesn’t matter if it’s a joke or not, it’s still horrible, and aggressive and scary. There are certain things that should not be joked about and rape and sexual assault is on that list. This cannot be shrugged off with a ‘can’t you take a joke?’

    • Helen says:

      04:14pm | 09/11/09

      “John”, did you hear the college master pooh-pooh it as just an allegation on the news? Oops, no, he didn’t. He seemed to accept its reality, are you cruising down De Nile at the moment?

    • Matthew Semple says:

      04:16pm | 09/11/09

      This is possibly the most biased article I have ever read. Just because somebody attends a private school or university, it does not mean that every single one of them is impeccable (don’t get me wrong, I am not defending these young men’s actions). I know - I go to a Catholic, private school. Many people there don’t appreciate how lucky they are to go to such a good school. However, the majority of us are great, decent, down-to-earth people, not posh and selfish, as you have made us out to be. Wow - great way to show your credibility!

      On to the more important matter- this facebook group. I don’t see why this university should need to go around picking up after their students like parents. These students are not boys - they are men, and they need to realise that they are in the real world now. It is sad that there is this mentality in some members today’s society. However, they should not be thought of any differently because they come from a private or public university, or because of socio-economic status, because either way, there is no excuse for their actions.

    • Tom G says:

      04:22pm | 09/11/09

      I am not for a moment defending the actions of these fools, but I am absolutely fed up with the unacceptable level of ill-informed opinion masquerading as journalism on this website.

      The number of articles in which children born into some degree of wealth are made out to be valueless, arrogant, out-of-touch or outright evil simply BECAUSE they were lucky enough to have wealthy parents is markedly unfair. Yes, they may have some things easier than others, but is that their fault? Is that something they should be admonished for or feel ashamed about? Of course not.

      I attended Paul’s a number of years ago. I paid my own way out of my own earnings and later earned myself a scholarship. Many others did the same, or had parents generous enough to sponsor their college time not because they were wealthy, but because they recognised the potential that the experience could have on their children; because they understood that education is the silver bullet and it’s worth the cost.

      Drivel like this ‘article’ has no business being called either news or journalism. It smacks of prejudice and naivety. The facebook group is the issue, not the college. Interview the students in question. Talk to current College residents. Neither one person nor one incident speaks to the true nature of an institution as historical and diverse as Paul’s or any other college. Otherwise we might just as rightly say that one pointless article renders an entire newspaper worthless…

    • Daniel says:

      04:58pm | 09/11/09

      Heard this this morning on Radio National and also heard the guy I think that is runing the college. All I can say is ambivalence the guy didnt sound to me like he was going to actually do anything on this issue. Shameful. What is going on here? This is nonsense.

    • bill says:

      04:58pm | 09/11/09

      Oh the temple of PC has once again deemed to interpret the world be outraged everyone. Notice the words ‘pro rape’ look at how they have interpreted the site and believe for they are the arbiters of truth and good. I do not need to see the site for my interpretation will be false and wanting and my judgement untrue however I can however voice my outrage in unison with them and feel happy in my judgement.

    • Eric says:

      05:10pm | 09/11/09

      Where is the evidence? What did the page actually say?

      And why don’t we see outrage like this whenever feminist students say nasty things about men?

    • Marlene Sarroff says:

      05:21pm | 09/11/09

      The   Anglican church   rejects equality of women by not allowing women to join the clergy.  So why would their prize students ( grown men) at St Paul’s treat women with respect and dignity.

    • H of TAS says:

      05:38pm | 09/11/09

      The most important issue here is the culture of sexism that still exists in Australia.  Matters of class, which seem to be the most discussed topic in this forum, are secondary.  Andrew Fox-Russell, your claims that Pauls’ rival college, St Andrews hasn’t the same culture is false. My brother and sister both went to Andrews and while my brother stayed for two years, my sister left after a semester due to the anti-social, sexist behaviour that existed at st. Andrews.

      Women in Australia continue to experience sexual harassment, whether it be rape or (what many mistakenly think are harmless) catcalling, as well as discrimination at work.  This incident is merely a symptom of a much wider problem in Australia.

    • J says:

      06:37pm | 09/11/09

      St Pauls, take a proactive stance to change the sexist culture. Introduce counselling, facilitated group sessions, and physchotherapy for the offenders.

      Unfortunately these attitudes are culturally engrained, and common in private schools and exclusive organisations.

    • Mathew says:

      07:41pm | 09/11/09

      Very little positive is likely to come from this story. But I can’t stay silent while this behaviour goes uncondemned.

      Maybe we can all take a moment to reflect on the fact that the 25th of this month is White Ribbon Day.  http://www.myoath.com.au

    • Anthony & Justine says:

      08:55pm | 09/11/09

      @Jen 03:57pm | 09/11/09: Why is it that women should be “conquering” various areas of society? Why does it have to be an “us-and-them” mentality? Shouldn’t we be looking towards equality rather than forwarding the cause of women all the time?


      For all of you attacking H for his post:

      H didn’t say that the reality of the situation is that men are hard done by. What he did say is that that is the message that the boys are being sent because of all of the programs in place for women.

      Whether or not men really are hard done by is beside the point. Rather, it’s the issue that we are giving boys conflicting messages by implementing affirmative action policies at the same time as promoting women as independently empowered.

      On that note, it is petty to say that the affirmative action is “alleged” - it obviously exists. If you want to argue that it is a good thing or a bad thing that it exists, that is fine, but denying its existence entirely seems unproductive.

      Perhaps there is or is not a sexist culture at St Paul’s (I would have liked to have seen this pro-rape group as evidence, although the Reverend’s comments are concerning). But what I see in these comments shows that there is an equally sexist pro-female group which intends only for the advancement of women to a position of superiority, which is as deplorable and brutish as the pro-male camp which aims to preserve any existing discrimination.

      I believe that society does change, however, so perhaps in the future we will see discussion that focuses on genuine equality of opportunity, rather than the division of the inherently sexist agendas of blindly pro-male and pro-female war camps. The “battle of the sexes”, I hope, will run its course, because I am truly sick and tired of it.

    • bec says:

      09:39pm | 09/11/09

      And yet, Anthony and Justine, I am yet to find a pro-male-rape group run by feminists who are privileged students in an established elite institution. For all the time I spend around feminists, I am yet to hear any threats of violence against any men.

      Where are these rowdy, vicious straw-feminists? Do you need to use some sort of decoy (presumably in the shape of Sam Newman) to lure them out of their squalid cat-run apartments? Do they leap upon any group of people with talons bared as soon as the proportion of y-chromosome owners gets above 50%? I NEED TO KNOW THESE THINGS!!!

    • John Ryan says:

      10:59pm | 09/11/09

      Well I,m sure 4 Corners ACA and TT will line up to get to the truth,but then there not Rugby League why they are people just like us uni education ect ect so well will just quietly forget it.
      Like they have the Sexual assault and rape allegations in the AFL,besides you cant upset the parents of the hooray Henry’s never know when you might run into daddy when looking for a job

    • Yo. says:

      08:18am | 10/11/09

      This article is dumb. Why did we need to link an elite boys college to rugby league? You know they would be playing union anyway.

      And to everyone saying it was just a joke or an immature mistake, these were LAW students arguing the definition of consent and statutory rape. .

    • Tim says:

      08:19am | 10/11/09

      And Bec,
      i am yet to see any evidence of a pro-rape group here.
      Have you seen the Facebook page, do you know what was on it?
      All i see is a lot of gnashing of teeth from outraged feminists who don’t have any facts.

    • machugh says:

      10:00am | 10/11/09

      How is this the College’s problem? The fact that these people are current and former residents of the College does not make it the College’s problem. They are also residents of Sydney, of NSW and of Australia - why has Rees or Rudd not been asked for their response and denigrated for failing to act? Why is facebook not being shut down for allowing this to occur?

    • Stjepan Bosnjak says:

      12:22pm | 10/11/09

      agree with the punch, except for one small mistake. you can get alot worse ‘outright misogyny’ than setting up a harmless facebook page.

    • Stjepan Bosnjak says:

      12:28pm | 10/11/09

      you can get alot worse ‘outright misogyny’  than setting up a harmless facebook group

    • Bert says:

      12:57pm | 10/11/09

      “setting up a Facebook group that basically endorses rape”?!?!

      It was a Facebook group that kept the members of this football team up to date with match times and admin. It was merely a joke made in very poor taste and the fact that you would compare these boys to the subject of the joke shows the severe lack of understanding you have about the real facts.

    • wrong: says:

      05:40pm | 10/11/09

      Paul, i would really recommend getting your facts straight before you start accusing Pauls of setting up a “pro - rape” face book group. I go to college, saw the group page numerous times, and as much as i hate to embarrass you but it was a group about beating their opposition in football, not about girls. They are ‘anti-consent’ because they wouldn’t let the other team say no, as in say no to defeat.

      you’re such a legend paul.

    • alex says:

      05:58pm | 10/11/09

      tall poppy much?

    • Tom says:

      05:55pm | 11/11/09

      So these days setting up a crassly named football team is tantamount to rape? And when people figure that it was a football team, not a pro - rape site (besides, do you really think anyone would be stupid enough to publish such views on Facebook, if they were to hold such views?), well let’s dig up some anonymous blog posts claiming people were sexually assaulted at college! After all, if the internetz says it, it must be true!

      For sure, if anyone at college commits such offences they should be chucked in the slammer with a 7 foot Samoan named Tiny, but as it stands there is no pro - rape Facebook page, there is no solid evidence of any rape or ‘rape culture’ (whatever that is), and as far as I know not one college student has been convicted of any such offence (judging by the media storm in a teacup from a Facebook site, I can’t begin to imagine the coverage if a college student were actually convicted of sexual assault). After all, we do have a principle of innocent until proven guilty enshrined in Australian law, do we not?

 

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