Julia Gillard has staked the future of her Government on a costly, complex, and probably unpopular climate change policy.

Does anyone else get the sensation it's a little crowded up here? Picture: Kym Smith

And she had to break an election commitment to do it.

Call it brave or perhaps crazy-brave but Ms Gillard is nothing if not a quick study. She plans to move fast and get it done this year. Not for her the glacial pace, the bloated timelines, and reams of ponderous reports favoured by Kevin Rudd.

She may have convinced him to walk away from his CPRS and she may have gone to the election promising no carbon tax, but she now sees a hybrid model, which begins with a tax and ends in a full market trading scheme, as her salvation.

In this, her self-declared year of delivery and decision, she wants to drive the scheme through parliament and then use that as proof that she can govern despite her minority position. And she wants to cast her opponent, Tony Abbott, as unerringly negative.

Predictably, Mr Abbott did not disappoint. Within minutes of her announcement, he came out swinging.

The proposal, he said, proved that Bob Brown - who has argued for a hybrid model before - was the real Prime Minister. And he went further, describing the idea as not merely a ``flagrant’’ breach of faith but ``the greatest betrayal in recent Australian history’’ no less.

As hysterical as these claims were however, they were merely small arms fire. For Tony Abbott, the big gun is fear. He will now argue that a carbon tax will hit ordinary households hard, sending fuel and electricity prices soaring and flowing through to just about everything else. This is the ``great-big-new-tax-on-everything’’ line and it is bound to find its mark with some voters.

Labor MPs are bracing for the onslaught. They know that appearing insensitive to cost pressures on suburban households is deadly.

But they also know that having set out on this path, with all baggage from the Rudd era, retreat is not an option.

Yesterday, with Ms Gillard’s bold declaration and Mr Abbott’s trenchant opposition, we saw the core of the political contest in 2011.

Whoever wins this fight will probably win the next election. The loser may not even last that long.

460 comments

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    • Erick says:

      05:08am | 25/02/11

      “For Tony Abbott, the big gun is fear.”

      So he’s claiming that the world will end and we’ll all die if we don’t have a new carbon tax?

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      06:09am | 25/02/11

      That’s the only policy he knows. I think it is fantastic our PM has the guts and is finally grabbing this with both hands and is doing something about it. It didn’t take long for the usual fear and smear campaign out of the liability party.

    • Dann Da Man says:

      06:46am | 25/02/11

      Erick-are you one of thos Gullible gillard Cheerleaders like mark Riley?? Wake up you goose -  Gillard STATED in the Election that there would NOT be a carbon tax! ok??She is Dictated to by Bob Brown because without him she is gone baby gone (Sooner da better actually) This carbon Tax is Going to save the world is it Erick and then you will not die-duhh? are you a Boofhead?  For once i agree with Tony Abbott with something you apparently do not possess CommonSense! This carbon TAXwill not make any difference except the difference will be, less money in our pockets,everything much more EXPENSIVE. get a life or better still abrain.

    • BofB says:

      06:48am | 25/02/11

      Funny thing is, all these ecomentallists that think this is great, fail to see that none of the cash raised will go to climate-change schemes, it’ll go back to people and businesses (ie: the money-go-round).

      The fact that even the gummint is talking about “additional cost of living pressures” and the fact that people (mostly Labor voters) will get subsidised is simply an admition that the price of “everything” will go up, so it’s no fear campaign, but simply the widely accepted truth.

      This is wealth redistribution in its most obvious form… when the funds start rolling in, you will see the biggest, most profligate pork barrelling exercise this country has ever seen! bigger even, than the “stimulus pork” we’ve already seen.

    • Joan says:

      06:51am | 25/02/11

      The big fear IS a sly blatant lying Gillard . her pack of misfits that make up this government , a Bob Brown pushing Gillard buttons all the way the Green way….. just wait till post July .....there`ll be no stopping Bob Brown as he puts Gillard into full throttle the Green way. Yes Australia has a lot to fear. Oh and let`s not forget dozey Swan the `proud unionist`  Treasurer…. ayone seen him? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    • TimB says:

      07:00am | 25/02/11

      If she truly had guts Rob she would have taken it to an election.

      Your leader is a coward.

    • Jane says:

      07:07am | 25/02/11

      Guts you call it? I would hardly call lying about a carbon tax to win office and then sneaking it back in after the fact hardly guts! Howard had guts to take his GST to an election and let the people decide.

    • persephone says:

      07:11am | 25/02/11

      TimB

      oh, like Howard with Workchoices??

      Oh, no, hang on…he didn’t take that to an election, did he?

      Remember people like you saying how that showed he had guts and proved he was a conviction politician….

    • BofB says:

      07:21am | 25/02/11

      Perse, Howard didn’t stand in front of the cameras saying “There will be no work choices under a govt I lead”, did he?

      You really cannot come up with an “me too!” excuse for this one, nor any excuse for that matter. A blatant lie!

    • TimB says:

      07:21am | 25/02/11

      If Howard had said “I will never introduce workchoices under a government I lead” you might have a point Perse.

      But as usual you don’t. All you have is a bad analogy.

      And if you really want to continue that analogy remember, what happened to Howard in 2007. This is Gillard’s fate.

    • dovif says:

      07:25am | 25/02/11

      Rob r Charteris

      LOL our pm have guts, I would bet anything that the Green said they would not support an ALP government without a tax and Gillard caved.

      More a grab for power then guts

    • Macca says:

      07:33am | 25/02/11

      @Dann Da Man, you, sir, are an idiot.

      Maybe re-read Erick’s somewhat concise post and re-consider what you have written.

      @TimB, correct.

      @Persephone, Howard never outright said he was never touching Workplace Relations again, in fact, he had tinkered with the WorkPlace Relations Act almost every single Term he was in office. Gillard stating she will not introduce a Carbon Tax in August ‘10 and then announcing one 6 months later is dishonest at best.

      Also, who thought it was a politically good idea to make the announcement with Bob Brown there. What on earth were they thinking?!

    • Marcus says:

      07:37am | 25/02/11

      I don’t remember Howard standing on a podium and announcing, there will be no workchoices under a Government I lead?

    • Jim says:

      07:45am | 25/02/11

      Ah I see you’re falling back on the Workchoices scare campaign propoganda.

      Tell me, apart from being bombarded with union funded ads telling everyone that Workchoices was bad without saying why….what specifically was so bad about it?

    • Elphaba says:

      07:46am | 25/02/11

      I love how people bring up Howard when Julia stuffs up.

      Howard IS NOT THE PRIME MINISTER! Julia is.  And as such, Julia is being an incompetant fool, bringing in a tax that has no benefits for the environment, and no benefits for the consumer.

      It’s a lame defense to bring up a past government to try and defend the current one.  Howard’s reign is over - Gillard’s is now, and it’s a joke.

      Get a new defense.

    • rob foster says:

      07:48am | 25/02/11

      Hail our new leader ” Bob Brown”.

    • Bill Door says:

      07:48am | 25/02/11

      I wonder if Abbott thought that it would be the end of the World when Howard wanted to introduce it?

    • Rosie says:

      08:25am | 25/02/11

      Erick - I think some of us didn’t pick up on your sarcasm?

      “For Tony Abbott, the big gun is fear. He will now argue that a carbon tax will hit ordinary households hard, sending fuel and electricity prices soaring and flowing through to just about everything else.”

      Mark Kenny has picked up on the lines that the Gillard Labor Govt are using as defence to her lying to the innocent people of this great land. Innocent people that would like to believe that politicans would not blatantly and unashamedly lie to them during an election campaign for the sake of winning votes. Julia Gillard if she has any sense and conscience she should be the one “fearful” to the people she represents.

      This has nothing to do with the ETS, Bob Browne and the Greens or the Independents it is all to do with the fact that we have a PM leading this country who unashamedly and blantantly lies because of her needs to gain and remain in power.

      The world will be saved, carbon tax or no carbon tax, but who will save Julia Gillard! “Not me said the fly!

    • Aasq says:

      09:08am | 25/02/11

      On the contrary, Eric. He’s claiming the world will end and we’ll all die if we do.

    • NicoleG says:

      09:15am | 25/02/11

      Dann Da Man, Erick was quoting what the author said. I can tell you now, he is no fan of Gillard.

    • Talon says:

      10:42am | 25/02/11

      There is no need to call him a fearmonger, not when what he says is true.  People are finding it tough enough to pay their bills now after an increase of over 50% for power.  Where do you think a bulk of the money raised will go?  Into the ether with the rest of it from the BER.  Here is Gillard pushing through another failed scheme for profit and to whome?  The Australian people will not see benefit from it and neither will the environment.

      Australians can not afford a bogus tax to the few profiting companies.  Especially now with the fuel companies profeteering with another hike.

      Will our Government never learn.  Australia was doing fine in the GFC up untill the full effects of the greedy fuel companies was felt.  Fuel went up which put the cost of everything else up and the banks conned the Government into believing we could afford it all and therefore we could afford imediate and excessive rate rises.

      If you have not guessed, I am angry and so are many Ausies.  Do they really think we are blind and stupid.  Some of them may be professors and or have degrees but some the the stupidest people I have known have had doctorates.

    • Gladys says:

      10:46am | 25/02/11

      @ Persephone: I get the impression you don’t like John Howard, am I right? Let’s assume I am.

      If you didn’t like John Howard, and the way he introduced Workchoices without taking it to election first, then why on earth would you think it’s ok for Gillard to do the same thing, but on a different issue?

      Surely if you don’t like John Howard, you would have a standard that is apparently higher, better, more ethical than his?

      But what you’re saying is you don’t like John Howard, you didn’t like what he did and how he did when he did it, but you’re happy to let Gillard do it anyway.

      The difference with Workchoices was it wasn’t ruled out pre 2004. It just wasn’t a factor.

      Gillard ruled this out and said any government of hers wouldn’t be introducing a carbon tax.

      I’m off to replay the Alan Jones interview this morning. I love the bit where he gets all teacher-like on her about her lateness.

    • Erick says:

      11:39am | 25/02/11

      That’s what I get for trying to be subtle.

      Guess I’ll just stick to the old sledgehammer tactics. smile

    • KKS says:

      12:22pm | 25/02/11

      We shouldn’t be fooled, only the big end of town and the likes of Ross Garnaut, Flannery are reaping in the $$ and the working families are the ones who will suffer with the increasing cost of living.

    • Troy says:

      01:04pm | 25/02/11

      Erick says: BOOFHEAD IS RIGHT!!!! When did a tax ever save the world? Think about it, You are agreeing to pay a tax to a Government that has wasted the same amount they plan to tax us on there own failures. Only a complete moron would trust this Government to do anything they say. For christ sake she lied about the tax in the first place because she knew it would cost her an election.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      01:28pm | 25/02/11

      Elphaba says:07:46am; We bring up howard to point out the hypocrisy of these snivelling libs and their pathetic non achiever leader

      That right tiny tim liberals never lie do they… pfffft… idiot I hope they tax you more because you obviously need a bit of taxing. didn’t Howard say never on GST. Get over it you loser.

    • Z says:

      03:00pm | 25/02/11

      Rob Charters

      Why stop at Howard?  Lets not forget Keating and his famous quote of his upcoming tax cuts which were in his words “L-A-W, law.”
      Or alco Bob’s famous “no child in Australia will be living in poverty by 1996.” 
      Hmmmmm the tax cuts didn’t arrive and as for children living in poverty….

    • Rosie says:

      06:14pm | 25/02/11

      Gillard needs to go! The hole she has dug for the Labor Govt gets deeper and deeper and the only way out for the Govt is to do what they did to Kevin Rudd and dump her on the back bench. Replace her with a good looker, Bill Shorten, Craig Emerson, oh yeah Stephen Smith that’s a good one, one that is happily married with a beautiful wife that will represents us in London for the royal wedding! Please! Please! Paul Howes but remember no females!

    • John Smit says:

      08:14pm | 25/02/11

      definitely! They dont have much carbom in guns. There will be jobs to collect carbon tax. I eat carbon and exhale CO2.
      What price I have to pay for intake and output?

    • matilda says:

      04:18pm | 26/02/11

      And Gillard is claiming we all we face disasters of biblical proportions and that we are condemning our grandchildren etc etc etc. The warmist have the best best fear campaigns..

    • Reg says:

      10:11am | 27/02/11

      @Erick “That’s what I get for trying to be subtle.”

      I’m so sorry but you gotta larf mate. How many times do I have to point out that your mates might like to use sarcasm but they’re too dense to recognise it.

      Fortunately you have Nicole to come to your rescue. (How embarrassing.)

      Just try saying what you mean and take a lesson from poor old Jugg’s sad efforts with the same style. Kindest regards.  smile

    • Wayne says:

      07:05am | 28/02/11

      Joolia, 3 stooges and the Greens, wow!! Not enough brain cells to power a pilot light. I don’t like Abbott; but I would rather him than them!!!!

    • Wayne says:

      07:14am | 28/02/11

      Joolia said that she would never challenge Kevin 07 and did. Joolia said that she would not introduce a carbon tax during her term, she has. Joolia said that she had never said that she wouldn’t bring in the carbon tax. Now she has admitted that was a lie. By my reckoning that is 3 lies. In any other country, Bob Brown would be in a mental asylum. What do I think of the Greens? I always leave them on the side of my plate.

    • Brian Taylor says:

      03:16am | 01/03/11

      No, its queen julia who is claiming the world will end if we DON’T have this you beaut tax erick, take a chill pill mate

    • TimB says:

      05:33am | 25/02/11

      Sooner or later Gillard will be gone. The Liberal party election ads just wrote themseleves.

      Footage of her claiming that Labor wern’t going to tax carbon.
      Followed by footage of her recent announcment.

      Only the most rusted on Labor/Green supporters will support this. The majority of Australians will be against it. This was the issue that led to Rudd’s downfall and Tony’s ascendency. It’s going to lead to Julia’s downfall too. I can only hope it happens BEFORE she inflicts too much damage on us.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      06:12am | 25/02/11

      lol tiny tim, like the liberal have never broken a so called promise. You have to move with the times tiny… or you might like the liability party get left behind. This is fantastic news!!!! our economy will benefit from business having some direction on this. Move out of the dark ages and smell the roses!

    • Pete says:

      06:29am | 25/02/11

      no the libs didnt, they had core promises and non core promises, which when changed into normal speak meant bullshit and more bullshit, vetsted interest drove the libs, one ofv the first thisng howard did was to cough up worker entitlements for a company that went broke, his brother was on the board. Bet he would not have otherwise.

    • BofB says:

      06:50am | 25/02/11

      I love the “business certainty” line… the idiots who spout this don’t realise (because business people are smarter than they are) that this means business will start rising prices straight away. Call it, administrative burden, whatever… they’ll rise, and not in proportion to the tax.

    • TimB says:

      07:10am | 25/02/11

      Rob, find me a Liberal broken promise of this magnitude. Something that they set out to break from the start. Gillard lied right to our faces, but hell, the smarter ones among us knew that.
      And don’t mention the GST. Howard took that to an election. It doesn’t count.
      And if you really think this is going to help our economy I’m sure you can point to many flourishing economies that have enacted similar legislation.

      Pete, you refer to something caused by the Keating government’s black hole (that’s what a real black hole looks like folks, not the mirage that you banged on about during the recent election.)
      The rest of your badly written post is a random attack on Howard, not sure what relevance it has here.

    • Helena says:

      07:15am | 25/02/11

      Move out of the dark ages Rob? Don’t make me laugh, Gillard wants us to turn out the lights and heating/cooling, wash by hand and have an ice box for a fridge. Fool. you!

    • Catching up says:

      07:57am | 25/02/11

      PM Gillard did also promise that there would be a charge on carbon.  The argument is about what type of charge. It appears that a tax will be introduce as a forerunner to an ETS.

    • Mouse says:

      08:14am | 25/02/11

      Rob, “a so called promise”?? Geez, it was a platform that she electioneered on. She stood up and promised it. “A vote for me is a vote for no carbon tax while I lead government”  Swan called it a hysterical allegation.  WTF!!  If you trust a government that bald face lies to get elected then backflips on everything they stood for pre-election, then I suppose you now have the government you want. The only direction business has now is to increase prices to cover the “carbon Tax” costs to them., ergo the price to the customer (that’s US, Rob btw)  wil rise also. Everyone will be hit. Unless, of course, you are low income/dole recipient, then you get compensated. Can’t be much though because once Gillard pays compensation to the big businesses there isn’t going to be a lot left. If you’re loving this, good for you, but I think you are going to be a lonely little group of believers.

    • Tom says:

      08:33am | 25/02/11

      @TimB, “Gillard will be gone”?

      1. There are several large banks slavering at the prospect of syphoning into our money through this tax. They would love Gillard at the moment and will probably be financing her next election campaign.
      2. Then there is the devestating stupidity of the Australian electorate (already demonstrated in NSW)

      Food for thought?

    • Joe says:

      09:03am | 25/02/11

      @ Rob r Charteris

      Since this is such a joyous occasion, send me your address so I can forward the tax bill to you to pay on my behalf.  It will be a few hundred dollars and you can double your pleasure by paying mine.

      ‘This is fantastic news!!!!’

    • Krush says:

      12:41pm | 25/02/11

      Some suireity for business to move on? Whats that. Let business know how much extra they will charge you for all goods and services? Its only fantastic news for people who want to trade in carbon, and use this tax as another excuse to increase their profits. Guess what, people will be bying a lot less of un-neccasary items, and only buy what is needed. Say goodbye to many businesses and watch the big businesses and banks start trading in carbon and making billions. The whole system is rorted, and it is beyond a joke. People really need to stand up for what they believe in as this government and its corrupt tentacles are stiching us up.

    • Troy says:

      01:29pm | 25/02/11

      Your right mate, I just hope Tony is able to pull another miracle before she gets it through parliament. Then again, it may not be all that bad if she does get through, as Labor will lose its core support as already Trade Unionists are up in arms because of this tax and the lose of jobs it will create. The low income earners will not have a chance in hell of paying there bills on time, and people will really start to get an understanding of how the Left/Greenies policys will effect them. This Gillard tax will hurt the voters that vote Labor the most, and while I dont think the Greens will lose much of there 10% of the vote, but I reckon Labor will lose at least 15 to 20% of the currant vote and that will sink the party into oblivion.

      Just watch what happens to NSW Labor in one months time.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      01:34pm | 25/02/11

      TimB says:07:10am; Rob, find me a Liberal broken promise of this magnitude.

      LOL magnitude… wake up fella a lie is a lie… a broken promise is a broken promise…. all pollies do it. I’ll tel you a nice lie an $11 billion dollar one at the last election and guess what side of politics gave that big’n eh’

      Howard and GST. Anyways I didn’t see you howling when they moved the emissions trading scheme onto the back burner… no howling of broken promises then was there

    • Philip Crowley says:

      01:42pm | 25/02/11

      Rob r Charteris: Surely you don’t really believe it is ok for a politician to blatantly lie to the electorate? Regardless of political allegiance, lying to electors is unforgivable. To state it is fantastic news only screams hypocrisy, stupidity and arrogance. That is shameful Sir!

    • TimB says:

      02:37pm | 25/02/11

      Rob, again not all lies are equal. I have the feeling I’m going to be using this analogy a lot in the coming days:

      If someone says they’ll meet you for lunch but has every intention of standing you up (and does) that’s one kind of lie.

      If someone says they promise not to beat you up right before they do exactly that and rob you, then thats another, bigger kind of lie.

      Guess which category Gillards falls into, compared to the piss weak justifications you’re rabbiting on about.

      And if I *had known* Howard was planning a ETS back then (I didn’t because I wasn’t paying as much attention to politics 4 years ago), then I would have been against that too. I don’t care that he didn’t go through with it. It didn’t affect me or you did it? Nothing changed. This is different. Surely you’re capable of seeing that.

      PS. The $11 billion black hole was imaginary. Get over it. Don’t make me humiliate you like I did Christian.

    • TBargh says:

      02:43pm | 25/02/11

      @ TimB
      Shouldn’t you be working? I can see you’re monitor from here.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      04:59pm | 25/02/11

      TimB says:02:37pm; “Rob, again not all lies are equal.” what you are really trying to say is “Not all lies are liberal” which really means it’s ok to lie as long as you are liberal…. and if you are liberal it’s just a tiny lie. nice one I’ll remember that along with rAbbott’s written down and scripted ones.

      This whole diversion to “was it a lie” or “was it not” will pale in the debate. If rAbbott tries to keep this going he will be lost in the debate… I hope he does be cause if that’s all he’s got he will look very weak very soon.

    • Dick J says:

      04:59pm | 25/02/11

      @pete leave it off. Core and non core is just another of the left lie.

      Howard implemented in full all is promises, however you wish to describe them, some in his second term because the government could not afford it during the first. You see Keating lied to the Australian people about the books and the real government debt.

      That is why Howard introduced the Charter of Budget Honesty so governments reveal the treasury accounts pre elections.  Naturally the ALP opposed it as “honesty” doesn’t sit well with them.

    • Dazeddazza says:

      05:31pm | 25/02/11

      And when the tax comes in, it will not go down, every year or two will see an increase, eg. GST, until there is proof that we are the only stupid country trying this, but will it change, No.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      05:53pm | 25/02/11

      Dick J says:04:59pm;“That is why Howard introduced the Charter of Budget Honesty so governments reveal the treasury accounts pre elections.  Naturally the ALP opposed it as “honesty” doesn’t sit well with them.”

      Yes and interestingly when they found themselves in Opposition they couldn’t run fast enough away from their own charter. Let’s reflect on the timeline of events. Hockey and Robb come out howling about a treasury leak. the BIG reason why they don’t submit their costing to treasury during the election. Tell me what did ever happen about all that illegal activity Robb claimed was going on and the AFP was investigating… nothing eh’. Then Robb lets slip a private accountancy firm that has been contracted to look over their costing has been for the last 2 months. an admission they were never going to submit their costing to treasury.

    • Reg says:

      03:15pm | 27/02/11

      @TimB. “Rob, find me a Liberal broken promise of this magnitude.”

      Timmy may we presume you mean a “coalition” promise, or does the Liberal Party not feel obliged to take account of the wishes of those who help keep them in office?  It would seem to me that a coalition government is always obliged to consider the other section of their government, but apparently this conflicts with Liberals policy.

      The electorate was misled by JWH’s promise of “never never a GST” so you could never in a fit describe it as taking the GST to the voters. Except for that down-right lie and others, he would never have been elected.

    • Against the Man says:

      05:42am | 25/02/11

      Game over for Gilltard, all Hail our REAL PM Sir Bob Brown!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      06:15am | 25/02/11

      Against the Man says:05:42am; oh poor didums…. here have a tissue boo hoo…. and while ya at it keep a hand off it… as you can see it has already made you blind, didn’t dady tell you about that young fella?

    • Macca says:

      07:26am | 25/02/11

      @Rob, this would have to be the most condesending and childish comment I have ever seen on The Punch.

      Congratulations on raising the bar for all of us.

    • Adam Diver says:

      07:45am | 25/02/11

      I concur with Macca, I think I am now stupider (look its already happening) from reading Rob’s post.

    • Reg says:

      07:54am | 25/02/11

      Come on Rob… settle down mate.

      Your inability to sensibly communicate with other people is why you don’t really have any friends (or a significant other).

      And yes I do know you in the real world.

    • Ryan says:

      08:41am | 25/02/11

      @Macca: I agree, quite pathetic from a pathetic little man.

    • simon says:

      08:52am | 25/02/11

      Rob, you just made yourself look like an idiot. Have you checked the polls mate, currently 88% of Australians are dead against this.

    • David C says:

      09:39am | 25/02/11

      Rob rc I appreciate this is an opinion site and all are entitled to their opinions, but seriously what was the point of that post?
      The punch should have a weekly “play the ball not the man award”.. you win hands down

    • Against the Man says:

      01:09pm | 25/02/11

      Rob well said and like always you are an embarrassment. But since you can’t deny my point (because I’m right), and I’m on a high knowing that Gilltard’s days are now numbered, I’ll let you comfort yourself in your own childish way. Well done, like Gilltard you are a walking joke. smile

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      01:39pm | 25/02/11

      My comment was quite appropriate for the wanker A the M. I mean really it he/she/it can come out with the crap he/she/it does it needs an appropriate reponse. It’s at a level he understands

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      02:37pm | 25/02/11

      Against the Man says:01:09pm and you think I’m the delusional one lol

    • GC Lad says:

      03:03pm | 25/02/11

      The menagerie on stage looked like the cast of Thunderbirds with all the jerky hand movements!  God help us if this is the best we have leading us!

    • Against the Man says:

      03:36pm | 25/02/11

      Oh Rob sticks and stones indeed. But you seem really angry which must mean I’ve hit a nerve. Which in turn means I’ve done a good job in irritating the ALP kind smile

      I feel very validated by your anger and it really makes me proud to know that I’m always right and the truth has prevailed. Gilltard is evil and Rob r Chartwhatever is a sad, lonely ALP zombie HaHa

      Well done Rob for adding fuel to the fire; (liar, liar Gillard’s pants on fire)!

    • Fred says:

      04:35pm | 25/02/11

      Backs to the wall, Bob’s in charge and he is not using KY ..... Way to destroy Australia TRAITORS

    • VVS says:

      07:54pm | 25/02/11

      Rob didn’t deny what Reg said… does that mean it’s true? No friends? No wife?

      Sure seems likely from what I’ve read.

    • Steve says:

      05:53am | 25/02/11

      I beg everybody to please look at the science of climate change.  After watching AL Gore I was horrified, and decided to become involved in fighting Global Warming.  I have read a lot of the reports, essays etc. and researched the structure and funding of the IPCC - available to anyone willing to search it out on the net - and come to the conclusion that this may well be the biggest con job since Y2K.  CC has evolved into a religion with all the faith bases dogma that entails.  Please look for yourself and then decide if a carbon tax is a good idea.

    • Paul C says:

      07:22am | 25/02/11

      Steve, were you sucked in by the forklift demo? Amazing how they can make things so dramatic with impressive props.

    • Paul c says:

      07:29am | 25/02/11

      besides, the gst was keatings idea anyway. Let’s see if Gillard has the balls to call an election - just like Howard did - somehow I don’t think so.

    • Paul c says:

      07:36am | 25/02/11

      sherlock, Bob brown is your answer, and with gillard so desperate to stay in the lodge , it was only a matter of time before one of the real puppeteers played their hand.

    • Loz says:

      07:40am | 25/02/11

      It’s a massive con job.  And our stupid government is jumping right in!

    • Paul c says:

      07:46am | 25/02/11

      well said, can’t wait for the detail to come out now , just how is Gillard going to shield her traditional voting base from this one.

    • Tom says:

      07:49am | 25/02/11

      Steve, try googling “Al Gore’s House”. You have been conned by a spiv.

      However, Al Gore is appreciative of the money all the gullible zealots paid to watch his film and sends his thanks for the loads of money paid by the stupid to be led through the nose.

    • Paul c says:

      07:58am | 25/02/11

      Hey punch-do I have to go and re-post all of these comments under the right ? Something wrong with your system.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:27am | 25/02/11

      Steve

      Al Gore has large investments in the companies who would make money out of carbon trading.

      And these are the only people who will benefit. It won’t make any difefrence whatsoever to the polluters - they will simply pass the costs on. 
       
      It won’t cost the welfare-bludging Labor voters anything either. The redhead will enusre that by subsidising them.

      Once again, the only people who will suffer are the middle-income earners, the taxpayers.

    • Steve says:

      10:21am | 25/02/11

      My daughter actually made me watch Inconvenient Truth as she was very concerned.  I was too after viewing.  Wanting to impress her, but not being overly smart, I started to read in an effort to find the best way a nobody like me could do something.  Luckily my searching linked me to some very credible scientists who had contra views.  Comparing of specific issues within the whole CC debate has changed my original position.  Having my daughter look more closely has changed hers.  I hope everybody investigates for themselves, the evidence to come to a conclusion (either way) is available.  I just don’t want people to have a view on this because of political allegiences.

    • Sluggo says:

      10:33am | 25/02/11

      Steve
      exactly what degrees did you get in your quest for knowledge on climate change?
      PS thanks for linking us to all those peer reviewed scientists and discussions that changed you mind. Very impressive datasets you point out.
      You’ve certainly convinced me with your heart wrenching story.
      PPS Perhaps now that you have climate change sorted, you could read your daughter some really entertaining books like the three little pigs, or the CO2 who killed the planet

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      11:19am | 25/02/11

      Sorry, Paul C, what’s wrong? Under the whatnow? We’re not aware of any technical issues but if something’s going wrong we’d love to know…

    • Steve says:

      11:42am | 25/02/11

      Sluggo old mate, what I’m trying to say is to actually look for yourself.  It’s there mate, anyone can and should find it.  I have come to a conclusion CC is not what its’ proponents are claiming - I simply asked everyone to come to a conclusion - for OR against - on evidence, not political leanings.  Your response indicates you are a self-impressed know all.  I think you are a tool.

    • PatC says:

      01:16pm | 25/02/11

      @ Tom & Tony of Poorakistan & possibly Paul C… you need to read Steves post to the end.

        Spot on Steve. I too was stunned when I saw “Inconvenient Truth” but after a lot of reading and research, including a large set of emails from England, I now understand that the whole thing is a religious movement, with all the faith based failings of any other spiritual religion. Built on lies and half truths, hands out for wads of cash, no need for proof, vilify anyone asks for evidence, destroy anyone who stands against the dogma.
      And don’t bother asking me to provide links etc. Stand up and do your own research if you want to get out your cult.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      02:54pm | 25/02/11

      PatC

      don’t include me with that pack of deluded fools. Climate change is at best based on ignorance and at worst, a complete scam.

    • kate says:

      12:23am | 26/02/11

      And what is Al Gore’s carbon footprint do you think with all his gallavanting around the world?  Do you think he is sincere? He makes money out of this, and exaggerates the degree of man-made climate change so he can make more money in the future out of carbon trading.

    • Jack says:

      06:41am | 01/03/11

      I believe Al Gore and Goldman Sachs are in cahoots in the carbon trading, making mega bucks. Hence Malcolm T’s interest in carbon trading.

    • Jugg says:

      06:03am | 25/02/11

      Notice who is scratching their head in the above picture?

    • Elphaba says:

      06:52am | 25/02/11

      Oooh ooh ooh oooh!

      (That’s supposed to sound like a monkey, in case you weren’t sure).

    • Macca says:

      07:41am | 25/02/11

      LOL, Elphaba

    • Paul C says:

      08:42am | 25/02/11

      Who IS that scratching their head in the back ground?  I don’t know anyone beyond Gillard and Swan, they seem to be always hidden off somewhere for some reason. Just the two puppets out front all the time.

    • Wallaby says:

      09:01am | 25/02/11

      Looks like he has nits.

    • Tom Jones says:

      10:08am | 25/02/11

      That photo is a tell tale sign of the Govt, and perfectly proves Labor are NOT in control on anything ATM. U have 2 independents who put Labor into power both at the back, 1 scratching his head, the other saying “Its not a deal, just a framework”. The you have Milne saying “Greens are in Balance of power in Canberra” Hang on a sec. They only have 1 rep in upper house. The 4 independents are holding the balance of power NOT the Greens. Very interesting to see the Green have finally showed their true colours, Hide behind Labor and pull there agenda whichever way they want. Why is it taking the Media sooooo long to finally work this out. The Greens with 12% of the votes in the last election, now control Australia. What a wonderful Democracy we live in.

    • Robin says:

      10:46am | 25/02/11

      I wonder who removed the splinters. Whats the odds that these independents get reelected

    • Dash says:

      10:50am | 25/02/11

      What do you expect, he’s got no balls!

    • bobw says:

      02:15pm | 25/02/11

      Yep, that’s the kind of insightful commentary we come to the Punch for, folks.

      “Geddit?  He’s just liek a dumb ole monkeY LOLOL!!!  No really - geddit?”

    • Chris says:

      06:07am | 25/02/11

      Since the flood, I get the impression that she’s had enough of the job and the criticisms and would be happy to go anytime. Her revenge however is to impose maximum damage on Australia while she’s still around with the help of her mad partners, the Greens and Independents.

      I would much rather that Australia continue to prosper and be the country that I love and cherish so much, but if this JG cyclone is to wreck havoc on us as it has been trying,  I hope this will at least teach the young generation what hardship is really about and how to survive.

    • Catching up says:

      08:43am | 25/02/11

      Chris, I suggest you take the time to watch question time.

    • James says:

      09:32am | 25/02/11

      How long did it take you to think all that up?

    • Catching up says:

      08:38am | 25/02/11

      The broken promise is about the type of charge on carbon, not about whether there would be a charge.

    • Levi says:

      09:38am | 25/02/11

      Nossy - predicting the downfall of Tony Abbott for yours now, despite the criminal incompetence of his lover Julia Gillard. Hey Nossy, Abbotts still there, and he will be your prime minister one day. ahahahah. Revenge will be sweet

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:59am | 25/02/11

      Planet earth to nossy. Come in nossy. Do you even think about what you right or does it come from a book handed to you from ALP and links to opinion pieces. Have you read of what everybody except the nossy,Rob r,ians,Faz and peresphone ALP punch team are saying.

      It would appear the Peter Van Onslen may have underestimated the affect of Jooles doing a back flip on her promise and also how the voter would percieve this new tax as what it is. A new tax doing nothing for Climate change.

    • C1 says:

      10:05am | 25/02/11

      Nossy,

      The woman may be smarter at the political gamesmanship, but she and many in her government are failing at the one thing that counts: governing.
      If they spent half as much effort in actually doing thgeir job than seeking political advantage from every aspect then we would all be in a better space.
      Keep that sort of stuff back in Young Labor and Liberals - the big kids are playing now and the stakes are too high to stuff it up.

    • Randal says:

      10:12am | 25/02/11

      I think we heard this all before when Abbott took over Nossy, and look how well that worked out for the then Labor PM… Ms. Gillard would seem to be heading down the same road and I can hear the guillotine being sharpened by the ALP numbers men as I type.

    • Faz says:

      10:56am | 25/02/11

      @ZSRenn

      ” ... ALP punch team ... “

      Are you same ZSRenn that said:

      “I guess when you have no argument against what the man is saying you might as well attack the man”.

    • ZSRenn says:

      02:11pm | 25/02/11

      @ Faz
      You are correct please forgive me but it is hard to fly like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys!
      I will try harder in the future.

    • persephone says:

      06:10am | 25/02/11

      No sense of history, you guys.

      PMs since the dawn of time have been forced to break promises in order tio get things done, often because of the realities of the Senate.

      Howard didn’t deliver the GST he promised, for example.

      PMs since the dawn of time have brought in legislation which raised prices or increased taxes - or sometimes both - and romped home at the next election.

      Again, Howard and the GST is a good example.

      The GST was actually very like the ETS - prices went up, but people understood that they were being compensated for this.

      And there’s far more evidence for the average Joe Blow out there that we need to act on climate change than there was that we needed a GST.

    • Sherlock says:

      06:45am | 25/02/11

      Howard too the GST back to the people to decide.

      Come on persephoney explain to the rest of us why you would support a tax that won’t stop or even reduce any possible effects of climate change or lower the earth’s temperature by even a thousandth degree.

      Do you think any other country is going to bring in a scheme like this? Who then? If you say USA or China we are all just going to laugh at you.

    • Andrew says:

      07:12am | 25/02/11

      Trying to use Howard’s GST as an example (as most people realise) is ridicules. Howard went to an election with the GST and let the people decide. Gillard deliberately lied when she went to the election.

    • Loz says:

      07:43am | 25/02/11

      I wasn’t really old enough to understand politics when the GST came in, but didn’t the GST just replace the WST?

      Would be interested to understand this better…

    • Des says:

      07:45am | 25/02/11

      At least the GST was exactly what it said it was, broadening the tax base.

      You might not want to link the Carbon Tax to the GST because it may show it to be exactly what it is, government revenue raising being hidden as an environmental issue. With all the compensation the only reason for this tax is good old wealth redistribution. Target the middle and higher income earners with a higher tax burden.

      The environmental outcomes will prove to be nothing more than a mirage.

      As someone in Canberra I’ll enjoy the bloated public service this policy will produce (as long as I can get a promotion to offset the extra cost of living). Pity for the rest of the country who will just have to suffer.

    • Jim says:

      07:49am | 25/02/11

      Persephone

      You are wrong

      “And there’s far more evidence for the average Joe Blow out there that we need to act on climate change” - No; there is enough misinformation, lies, false reports, propoganda and collusion masquerading as ‘peer reviews’ to FOOL the average Joe Blow out there into thinking there is a thing called climate change brought on by humans.

    • Adam Diver says:

      07:51am | 25/02/11

      My neck is sore from your repetitive posts, they go something along the lines of “oooh, look over there”

      But even that is not enough for you. You then have to always excuse labor by pointing to (usually poor) examples of coalition issues. The question I ask if you use the coalition as your guiding principle in politics why do you bother voting Labor at all?

      Answer one question for me Perse - How much Carbon will we save and what effect will this have on the climate by intorducing this tax?

    • Hamish says:

      08:07am | 25/02/11

      Just untrue Perse. Don’t be so disingenuous. Howard went to the senate with a mandate after winning an election of which the GST was a major part of the campaign. Julia Gillard just lied. Plain and simple.

      Do you seriously believe she’ll get voted in at the next election? Really, are you that delusional? This is the best present Toney Abbott ever got and I thought you hated him? He’s as good as in The Lodge now.

    • Dash says:

      08:39am | 25/02/11

      Perse, Gillard mislead the Australian people. She lied! No matter how you dress it up, her and Swan both mislead us for political gain. Howard took the GST to the people at the election. He fought an election on the issue and you know it.

      The Howard government also gave back to the taxpayer after they balanced the budget and had paid off $96billion in ALP debt! They provided the taxpayer with 5 consecutive years of tax cuts and provided families with welfare to assist with home ownership and child raising.

      The bit you are missing is that the GST had no “compensation scheme” attached! It was not an exercise in wealth redistribution. What we are seeing here Perse, is a socialist agenda to redistribute people’s hard earn money to sections of the community who are sympathetic to the ALP and green cause! That is wrong and in fact it’s a disgrace!

      Gillard told us that she was only a member of the Socialist Forum in her 20s. Another lie! She was in fact a member right up until 2002. In other words right up until it became politically impossible for her to continue her association! She is now following her socialist agenda aided by the Greens. And she’s following an agenda that was kept from the Australian people and infact she is doing the opposite from what she committed.

      I have said before, this is not a Hawke Keating styled ALP. It is the most socialist government in our history.

      I do not understand how you can continue to support them Perse. I do not understand how you can stand there and make excuses for misleading teh Australian people! The argument is not about climate change. You know as well as I do that this is not about the environment!

    • AdamC says:

      09:14am | 25/02/11

      I second the other respondents. Weak justification, Pers. And the GST analogy is so spurious I won’t even bother.

      I don’t want this to come across as hyperbole (and I note I never said this about Rudd) but Gillard is becoming a serious contender for the worst PM Australia has ever had. The extent of her cynicism and dishonesty on this issue is just incredible.

    • NicoleG says:

      09:23am | 25/02/11

      Pers, I don’t really give a sh!t what Howard did and didn’t do. I only care about what’s going on now. Gillard is destroying this country. How you can still support her after this massive lie is just beyond me. You do realise that EVERYTHING is going to skyrocket, don’t you? And you’re happy about that? Well I’m not. I’m furious. I don’t know about you, but I care about my children’s future. Gillard is going to make it near impossible for them to survive.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      09:28am | 25/02/11

      I can imagine persephone in her zimmer frame in a few decades time, still pointing back to the Howard Government in a vain attempt to garner support for the ALP-Green Axis.

      Gillard is PM. Gillard has consistently lied. Gillard’s lies benefit nobody except the welfare-bludging Labor acolytes. 
       
      Gillard has no mandate for this big, new tax.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:31am | 25/02/11

      @Persephone, stop blaming past governments as an excuse.  Grow up.

      Julia is the PM TODAY.  And she’s cocking up big time.  Her poor track record has nothing to do with Howard and the GST, or Keating, or any other pollie that has lied and cocked up.  She is in charge, and right now, she is the one to blame.

    • Randal says:

      10:30am | 25/02/11

      This is a classic example of attempting to defend the indefensible, when all you are left with is half truth’s and misdirection.

      I cannot recall a time of any PM being caught in so blatant a lie… To actually say “There will be no carbon Tax in a government I lead” and then six months later announce one is just not possible to defend. So instead we will see the Laborites bring up the GST, of course whilst true Howard said “Never ever” in 1996, a necessary political strategy given Hewson’s struggles in 1993.  He announced a change of policy within 12 months of winning, but critically and most importantly he then took that policy to the people and let them decide at the 1998 election.

      Of course if Gillard had the courage of Howard that is what she would do, announce her intention for implementing a carbon tax, put together the plan, and then present it to the people. And you can rest assured that is what the people would expect, and why Perse and the other Labor toads are having such difficulty mounting an argument.

    • Joan says:

      11:23am | 25/02/11

      Funny about Labor or Labor supporters they can never ever think of a good argument to support Gillard or any Labor policy…. with out referencing Howard.  Pathetic ... if you believe in policy flog that don`t look to anothers actions to justify you own ....they don’t relate. Desperate Juliar on Neil Mitchell and Alan Jones shows couldn’t get through interview without invoking Abbott`s name. as she used manipulative language to excuse and justify and elude question re the play back of her pre-election statement `There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead`, Juliar showed total disrespect to the listeners- Australians…. who wanted answers about the lie and answers to the cost of carbon tax to all Australians and businesses. No answers by Juliar same as with NBN .... no real answers…just waffle. and just another tax… Juliar puts another cost to everything to everyone…... and she can’t give a straight answer.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      02:12pm | 25/02/11

      If only cars could give us the mileage Labor supporters think they can get from JWH, carbon reduction targets would be solved in an instant.

      This is Julia’s tax.  Can we please focus on that fact.

    • Z says:

      03:07pm | 25/02/11

      The main benefit of the GST was to hand extra money to Labor state governments and allowed them to cover up their woeful handling of their economies.  Unfortunately, along came a spider (Rudd/Gillard) and the states lost a lot of their revenue.  Now we’re seeing state Labor Govts falling over like dominoes!!!!  Woo hoo go Labor.  Thank you, come again.

    • Phil S says:

      08:19pm | 27/02/11

      @Joan:

      Do you know why Labor supporters bring up Howard? Because they are attempting to show liberal supporters how hypocritical they are.

      It’s amusing to see people on both sides of politics deride someone for their view, while presenting a view that is no better. I also think the people who claim that Tony of Julia have had it now are extremely hilarious. Do people honestly thing that their political opinion affects whether someone has “had it” or not?

      Anyway, not going to divulge my political belief here. All I’m going to say is that you’re all as bad as each other, all fanatical as each other, and if you think “your side of politics” is better than someone else’s, you are incredibly delusional.

      Unfortunately, most of Australia seems to be like this.

    • Watermelon Crusher says:

      06:31am | 25/02/11

      The beginning of Gillard’s decline. I wouldn’t be surprised if she is ousted before the end of the year. The opinion polls will dictate her fate !!

    • Aasq says:

      09:19am | 25/02/11

      First you said the Prime Minister wouldn’t form Government, then she wasn’t going to last a week, then it was a month, then it was until Xmas, and now apparently we might have to wait until the end of the year. You’re not very good at this, are you ?

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:52am | 25/02/11

      @Aasq. I haven’t noticed you here before but I guess you have been around for a long time. You are very good at attacking the author with out adding any debate. Like many ALP staffers here. Do you truly not believe that once Jooles popularity falls below 30% she will remain? On your other points I guess I was as shocked by the decisions of the independents as anyone including WC.

    • Sam says:

      01:26pm | 25/02/11

      Watermelon Crusher I don’t think she will be ousted.
      The Labour party wouldn’t oust 2 prime ministers in 2 terms, regardless of opinion poll numbers. The party couldn’t be that stupid surely?

    • Aasq says:

      02:24pm | 25/02/11

      You should have been paying more attention then, ZSRenn. Everybody who was knew the jig was up when the Independents were told by Treasury about the 11 billion reasons why the Coalition had refused to submit their costings to Treasury, and why they had initially refused to submit them again when the Independents insisted on it.

      Tony Abbott certainly knew it. You can smell the panic coming off him when he paid the Independents his surprise visit on the evening of September 1st. As luck would have it, that very moment was captured for posterity by Four Corners and featured in The Deal, which you can watch again here if you like. Here’s the transcript ...

      “BOB KATTER: We’ve got a document here right, that indicates ah, um, a seven to 11 million dollar.

      ROBERT OAKESHOTT: Billion.

      BOB KATTER: Billion dollar black hole, right. Now, we’re not being judgmental either way. We’re just saying right-o, a question’s been raised about ah, seven to 11, ah, thousand million dollar black hole.

      SARAH FERGUSON: Who’s (sic) black hole on which side?

      ROBERT OAKESHOTT: Coalition. So Treasury advice is ah, Labor’s pretty close to the mark um, but there are significant questions about ah, the Liberal Party economics.

      SARAH FERGUSON: They’ve decided to send Treasury’s analysis immediately to both parties.

      TONY WINDSOR: I think there’s some explaining to do and that’s obviously why Tony Abbott’s, you know, climbing up the walls wanting to get us before, before we obvious ah, ah say anything. But I think it does indicate that they knew that there were issues here in terms of the accountability process.

      SARAH FERGUSON: Minutes later, the Liberal leader surprises everyone by arriving in the office himself.

      TONY WINDSOR (to Tony Abbot): You’ve got something for me?

      TONY ABBOTT: I’ve got something for you, yeah, yeah. Um, shall I go in. (To 4 Corners camera person) Do you mind if I close the door. Thanks.

      (Later on, Tony Abbott leaves Tony Windsor’s office)

      SARAH FERGUSON: Could I just ask you something, Mr Abbott, since you’ve caught us. This is obviously a difficult night for you. Do you accept the Treasury’s assumptions that, that an-and, do you accept the conclusions that Treasury have come to about the hole in the budget?

      TONY ABBOTT: On Treasury’s worst assumptions we still get a significant improvement to the bottom line and I would strongly defend ah, our costings, vis a vis the Treasury. I’m sure ah, they are not prepared to accept ah, some of our reasoning, but I think our think our reasoning is eminently defensible.

      SARAH FERGUSON: The question is though, did you have something to hide and is that why you didn’t show these costings to the independents in the first place?

      TONY ABBOTT: To be honest a bit of an offensive question Sarah. It’s…

      SARAH FERGUSON: I’m only going on what they said.

      TONY ABBOTT: It is a very offensive question.

      SARAH FERGUSON: I’m just picking up on what Mr Katter said.”

      With note perfect timing and execution, the very next morning Andrew Wilkie hammered the final nail in the Coalition’s coffin.

    • ZSRenn says:

      06:33pm | 25/02/11

      @ Aasq. And this has what to do with the new Carbon tax that we were promised would not be introduced? As for nails in coffins I think I am looking at a pretty big one being hammered into Julia Gillards political coffin right now. She has promised the world and cannot deliver. I think the final figure is going to be far greater than the supposed 11 billion you are talking about which was later discredited

    • Aasq says:

      10:51pm | 25/02/11

      You’re the one who brought up the topic of the Independents’ decisions, ZSRenn.

      And show me where Treasury’s analysis was “later discredited”. I call bullsh!t.

    • TimB says:

      10:24am | 26/02/11

      AASQ right here.

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/mark-kenny-sat-feb-7/#comment-330956

      My responses to Christian and Persephone. Perse even includes a helpful article. Your black hole is a fantasy, perpetuated by the zombie-like supporters of the ALP.
      Do some research and find out the truth for yourselves once in a while instead of parroting headlines you don’t understand.

    • ZSRenn says:

      01:35pm | 26/02/11

      Thanks TimB You saved me some leg work!

    • Aasq says:

      11:50am | 27/02/11

      Just as I thought, Tim. Total BS.

      Now, let’s see if ZSRenn can come up with anything.

    • TimB says:

      04:16pm | 27/02/11

      How is that BS Aasq?

      You need to do better than that. Like I don’t know…how about you explain exactly what part of my link is untrue?

      I call BS on your call of BS.

    • Aasq says:

      05:35pm | 27/02/11

      All of it, Tim. Next you’ll be directing me to comments from Rosie to show that atheism was “later discredited”, or to comments from Eric to show that claims that there isn’t a feminist conspiracy to oppress him were “later discredited”.

      I notice ZSRenn is still yet to come up with anything. My call of BS on his claim that Treasury’s analysis was “later discredited” stands.

    • TimB says:

      08:40pm | 27/02/11

      AASQ I gave you a lintk to an article and a critical analysis of the black hole. All you can do is squak “BS BS BS!!!”

      Show me *how* it’s BS. Just because you say it is doesn’t mean anything. Give me an actual argument. Facts. That sort of thing.

      I’m guessing you recognize the fact that I’ve got you trumped and you just don’t want to admit it.

      And ZRenn probably figures I’ve already put you in your place, he doesn’t need to contributre anything further.

    • Aasq says:

      09:43pm | 27/02/11

      Just because you say it doesn’t mean anything, Tim.

      ZSRenn knows he can’t back up his claim either. He could simply do so, if it weren’t BS.

    • TimB says:

      09:00am | 28/02/11

      Did you even follow the link? I’m guessing no. Read my post again:

      “My responses to Christian and Persephone. Perse even includes a helpful article

      See if you had followed the link instead of automatically dismissing it , you would have seen the article. You would have seen the critique of the “black hole”.

      So if you remain so utterly biased that you even refuse to read arguments that contradict your beliefs then *everything* you post counts as BS.

      Come back to me when you can argue properly.

    • Aasq says:

      10:12am | 28/02/11

      ZSRenn still can’t back up his claim that Treasury’s analysis was “later discredited”, Tim. If the infamous $11 billion black hole had been “later discredited”, it would have been front page news in all the papers, so it should have been be easy. My call of BS stands.

    • TimB says:

      10:54am | 28/02/11

      ZSrenn doesn’t have to back it up because I already did. He acknowledges that. You refuse to read the link that disproves your assertions.

      You claim of BS falls over because it is BS. Try again zealot.

    • Aasq says:

      04:50pm | 28/02/11

      Just because you say it doesn’t mean anything, Tim. All ZSRenn acknowledged is that you posted a comment.

      He can’t back up his BS because it’s BS, not because you don’t think it is.

    • Sherlock says:

      06:40am | 25/02/11

      I’m sorry but I don’t understand. Could somebody please take the time to explain this to me.

      I need to try to understand why any reasonably sane person could possible support a tax that is going to increase the price of just about everything, raise billions of dollars of tax revenue every year, that other countries are backing further and further away from, will make our industry even less competitive, will drive away foreign investment,  where the two prime examples where this sort of tax has been introduced, namely Europe and California are economic basket cases and lastly and definitely most importantly, won’t reduce any effect of any possible climate change or lower the temperature of the globe by a even thousandth of a degree?

      To me it just sounds completely insane. I fail to understand how any rational person could even consider supporting this tax.

      Finally to top it all off, the current government went to an election just six short months ago with a clear commitment to the voter not to introduce this very tax. I don’t have a real problem with changing such a clear election commitment, Howard did it with the GST but he did go pack to the people first.

      So could someone please explain why they would support a tax that makes people pay yet has no benefit at all. Frankly I think you’re completely out of your mind.

    • Adam Diver says:

      07:54am | 25/02/11

      I don’t know, I really don’t know.

      Above all they need to provide evidence of the positive effect on the climate that this will have. Otherwise its literally pointless.

    • MargD says:

      08:08am | 25/02/11

      To put it simply Sherlock, Gillard need Bob Brown to keep her in the job so whatever he says goes. I don’t remember voting for the Greens or the Independents but they are running the country in case no-one has noticed.

    • Mick In The Hills says:

      08:49am | 25/02/11

      It has the same degree of rationality that imposing religous tithes on the masses had back in less enlightened times.

      In fact. a carbon tax is just that - a religion-induced tithe.

    • Dash says:

      08:50am | 25/02/11

      Sherlock,

      The people who support this are those that will gain from it!

      I know people scoff when I say this, but it’s true. This is an exercise in wealth redistribution. It is a socialist agenda that is using the environment to firstly raise revenue,. The secret bit for which the detail has not been provided, is the way that tax is planned to be distributed back into the economy. You will hear the government talk about “compensation”. It’s essentially taking your hard earned dollar and giving it to sections of the community who are sympathetic to the ALP and Greens. That’s the bit of this whole thing which is most disgraceful.

      Once again, the ALP are looking to punish those creating the nations wealth to reward those that are destroying it.

      Gillard is a raging socialist. There will be some sections of the community who will be better off. If you are in a traditional LNP demographic you will be far worse off. That is what this is about. And it’s a real fraud on the people of Australia.

      This government has to go!

    • Sherlock says:

      10:22am | 25/02/11

      I think MargD and Dash explain the need for this tax far better than any environmentalist ever will

    • Ironside says:

      06:44am | 25/02/11

      To those who try and say PM’s have always broken promises and then throw back to core and non core promises etc etc, your missing the point.
      Julia Gillard the leader of a MINORITY government would have lost the election if she had gone into it saying she would introduce a carbon tax, same as Tony Abbott would have been smashed if he had run on reintroducing workchoices.
      Now that she is in power she is introducing the carbon tax she was elected not to introduce. That’s a breach of trust to the Australian people.

      Forget the promise that the tax will go into helping those affected that’s just rubbish because it’s the ancillary costs. Example, up to 300 dollars a year increase in electricity prices, 6.5c a litre of fuel, which on average consumption of about a tank per week (assume a standard 65L tank) will be about $220 dollars a year, then there is the associated price rises in most goods that require road transport. Forget the fact that this should encourage more train transport, the rail infrastructure doesn’t exist at the moment to do it. So for arguments sake lets say that cost across all good will be about $500 per year for the average family, now the fact that Food and fuel are inelastic expenses (that is people cant not eat so they must buy food) means that inflation will rise.
      This will likely force the reserve bank to raise interest rates, lets call it .5 of a percentage point, causing an increase to the average mortgage holder of at least $75 dollars per month or $900 a year. So now we have housholds having to find an extra $2000 dollars a year to pay for this tax, and that’s a low ball figure it doesn’t take into account latterly tens of thousands of goods and services that will be affected. I’m sorry but this isn’t about the middle class whinging about not being able to afford another plasma screen, this is about the most damaging tax in Australian history.

      But don’t worry I just realised, Gillard didn’t break her promise, she said during the election that No government she lead would introduce a carbon tax, she has kept that promise, as it is painfully clear that Bob Brown is leading this government.

    • Jedi_T says:

      08:36am | 25/02/11

      Ironsside.
      Your logic will confuse and scare all the Laborites & Greenies.
      They wont understand and thus wont comment.
      They’ll just pretend it doesnt exist.
      Well thought & written btw! A very solid argument.

    • Tom Jones says:

      11:06am | 25/02/11

      Well said Ironside.
      Your post should be pinned at the top of these comments.
      BTW: Avg mortgage in Australia is about $350k. and increase of 50BP to the avg mortgage is $1750 per year or $145p/m.

      Also BTW totally off topic: Was at coles yesterday. a 600mls coke in the fridge was $3.25.  U could say the 600mls costs $1 and $2.25 was for cooling.  (Going on 50c for a can x2) Now just imagine how much electricity costs goes into each and every product to keep cool. Now add a say 40% power increase, that 600mls coke will now cost $4.20.
      Thats the effect on just 1 product. Imagine all the fruit in cold storage etc, and U will see the size of the increases possible.  God help us all.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:09pm | 25/02/11

      It might be noted on the Abbott promise of “no reintroduction of Workchoices” promise that whilst *he* might have promised it wouldn’t be touched, other people in his proposed alternative government were saying something different.

      This is one of the reasons he didn’t get enough seats to form government in his own right.

    • Kevin says:

      06:49am | 25/02/11

      Lol at all the Labor wankers who must have choked last night and now are being forced out in the droves to defend the indefensible.

      Promise broken.

      No matter what ‘bs’ you come up with, it’s still a promise broken.

    • The Original Oz says:

      08:04am | 25/02/11

      Kevin - This is more like something that has been inflicted on us by Prime Minister Bob Brown. His Lunatic Asylum will shortly be the Senate where, in mid-year, the Greens will take the balance of power. There were many, many pundits warning the Australian electorate of the threat of the Green Party to Australia’s economic future but they were all howled down as talking nonsense. I always have and will continue to state that the Greens are the most dangerous political party in Australia. Even after the next election the Greens will continue to hold the balance of power as, at the Federal election only a half Senate election is held. Whoever takes the reins of Government in 2013 will still be beholden to the Greens to achieve anything. We have a rough ride ahead of us for the next 5 years or so. To all the feel good tree huggers who ignored the warnings about the Greens and gave them so much power, thanks for nothing you morons. The greens are driven by a belief that has less fact to it than religion and are now in the process of tearing apart everything that Australia has achieved in the 110 years since Federation. Any one who votes Green (or labor) in the future really need their heads read.

    • Catching up says:

      08:41am | 25/02/11

      A promised broken against the government doing the correct thing for Australian.  It was a promised that should not have been made. It is a promise that should not be kept.

    • Catching up says:

      08:46am | 25/02/11

      No carbon tax broken.  A charge on carbon kept.

    • Charlie says:

      09:23am | 25/02/11

      @ Catching up

      Until I see the real science I won’t believe.

      Until us doing anything makes a difference to the major polluting countries…it will always be a cash grab by a desperate government who have spent the next generation into poverty, already!

    • Non Rob r Charteris says:

      06:52am | 25/02/11

      “I think it is fantastic our PM has the guts and is finally grabbing this with both hands and is doing something about it.”

      Yes a new tax, let’s all celebrate!!!

      “This is fantastic news!!!! our economy will benefit from business having some direction on this.”

      Can I nominate this in The Punch’s annual awards for lamest justification ever?

    • TimB says:

      07:17am | 25/02/11

      Nah, I have a contender.

      Persephone justifies it on the basis that she saw The Day After Tomorrow, and it was, like, really scary!

      So you know, that means we have to have a tax. Unassailable logic.

    • Macca says:

      07:47am | 25/02/11

      If we are continuing on the Awards front, Can I nominate Erick’s response to Ant Sharwood’s Sushi article as Comment of the Year.

      “Sushi is a feminist plot to oppress men. Stick to pizza” http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/fridays-dilemma-is-sushi-girl-food/

      Gold!

      @TimB, that quote will live on forever, thankyou, Pers

    • Jedi_T says:

      08:38am | 25/02/11

      LMAO
      Yeah Rob really has no Idea, but nossy really should take any award if offered. His justification for anything that the ALP supports is, “but Abbott!”

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:50am | 25/02/11

      I have to re-nominate Christian Real’s classic,

      “I work 4 days and have 2 days off every week”

    • Macca says:

      10:51am | 25/02/11

      @TimB and Adam Diver, can you provide the links

      I want to see for realsies

      @Jedi_T, I disagree it’s always “DR NO!!!”

    • Whodat says:

      11:42am | 25/02/11

      My favourite is MarK basing his opinion of the NBN on the fact that his local Harvey Norman didn’t have any fibre modems in stock
      Close runner up goes out to all that based their opinion on climate change on what the weather is doing outside their kitchen window.

    • Macca says:

      12:07pm | 25/02/11

      @TimB, Bookmarked and thankyou

      Well done sir, hilarious in their stupidity. Enjoy a drink this afternoon, your allround common sense deserves it

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      02:02pm | 25/02/11

      TimB says:07:17am; still stealing other peoples name eh’ tiny tim

    • TimB says:

      02:39pm | 25/02/11

      Rob wtf are you on about? I’ve never posted under any name except my own.

      More than I can say for some of those on your side.

    • NicoleG says:

      05:06pm | 25/02/11

      TimB, ignore him. He’s just irrelevant.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      05:38pm | 25/02/11

      NicoleG says:05:06pm; they’ve tried that lol, the point is you cant dismiss opinions from the other side… you have to face up to them just like we face up to your crap. Or it all start to become all commie and such… unless your red at heart. It’s like this generally people who cast others as racist are usually pretty good at beinging that too! so dont shut down someone’s freedom of speach just because you dont like what they have to say (we could shut down rAbbott if you like, I know plenty who dilikes what he has to say) because it comes across as all commie like comrade.

    • TimB says:

      10:27am | 26/02/11

      So Rob, when you called me a racist the other year with absolutely no justification (just another one of your stupid insults on a topic that didnt have anything to do with people let alone race),  it really means that you’re a closet racist?

      Good to know for the future.

    • Nick says:

      07:03am | 25/02/11

      Howard first said no to a GST and then changed his mind and went to the people.Julia said no to a carbon tax and then wants to shove one in..Big difference.One let the people decide through an election the other is a lying rat.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      09:18pm | 25/02/11

      Nick says:07:03am; maybe he should have gone to an election with Workchoices… but he didn’t. And who was it that got rid of it even though she didn’t have the numbers. Tell me when in the history of Australian political leader been able to do that. It was Julia the one and only

    • thatmosis says:

      07:08am | 25/02/11

      I have always said that you can take the woman out of the Communist Party but you cany take the Communist Party out of the woman and this shows how right i was unfortunately. We are being ridden over by a liar and a bunch of self centered no nothings for the sake of a scientifically unsustainable arguement that we are going to save the world by upping the cost of living for every Australian. It doesnt matter if it makes our industries uncompetitive and people will be forced to pay extra for every thing as long as these brain deads get their way. What a state we have allowed ourselves to be conned into by minor parties promising nothing but delivering pain across the board. I really hope those that voted for these clowns suffer the most under their jack boot policies but unfortunately it will be the little bloke again that carries the can. Congratulations idiots.

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:10am | 25/02/11

      Have a look here folks and tell me the propaganda wing of the ALP is not alive and well in the pages of the punch. Barely has this story hit the digital forum and Rob r Charteris, nossy and Peresphone have hit it hard in defense of their beloved leader. Perhaps they were reading yesterday’s forum comments and judged that by the negative comments there they had to get in early if their mantra was going to get heard over the roar that is coming from Australia on this issue.

      Whether you are a Climate change follower or not at the end of the day this is a broken promise from Gillard. Not just a broken promise but an issue that previously led to the downfall of a PM. Gillard has not only stabbed Kevin in the back she has now stabbed the Australian people and those that put her in power there as well. Yes you can break promises sometimes when you are PM and justify it as things change but you cant after uttering the words.” There will be no Carbon tax as long as I rule Australia.”

      This tax will be ineffectual. The price of coal will go up and with it the price of coal products like electricity. However, with no suitable alternative we will still have to use the same amount of these products in our day to day lives. Many families are today taking all the precautions we can to reduce our electricity consumption because it is already too expensive. We cannot cut anymore. This tax will hit the Joe average low income earner hardest and that is Julia now stabbing her key voter base in the back.

      Another thing with this tax is that it will make our Coal exports more expensive and allow other exporters of coal to be more cost competitive. Our buyers will simply move away and cause a loss of jobs, income and GDP. Once these suppliers have gained access to our trading partners they are going to be very unlikely to impose this new tax on their product and lose this valuable income.

      Yesterday it was announced that there is a growing fear of another Global recession on the back of rising oil prices after the trouble in the mid east. We are going to need all the income we can get. We do not have a $20 billion dollar surplus this time around but a $50 billion dollar deficit. We cannot raise a paltry $1.8 billion to fix the flood damage. This to me does not sound like the right time to be artificially raising the price of the one commodity that got us through the last one. Families are going to be hit with both barrels with increasing fuel costs and electricity. So how can Gillard claim that this is the right time to be doing this?

      So Rob r Charteris, nossy and Peresphone enjoy being at the top of the page and hope that your Labor paid for Mantra may convince people that this is the right thing to do but I think it will be to little to late as the day wears on. A storm is coming and not even the three of you working together are going to be enough to silence this crowd. Role in iansand later but I do not think that will be enough. You do not have enough personal attacks in your song book to quiet the total distaste the average Australian has for this tax or to sooth the pain in Australia’s back from the knife wound.

    • Jedi_T says:

      08:49am | 25/02/11

      *claps*

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      01:49pm | 25/02/11

      ZSRenn says:07:10am; So are we meant to stand back and watch you lot rant on. You have thius commie thing going on about people freedom to speak. This is Australia not the USSR. And look at the dribble you posted..blah..blah…dribble snivel and dribble

    • ZSRenn says:

      05:49pm | 25/02/11

      No one suggested you could not speak Rob. In fact I encourage you to do so. blah..blah…dribble snivel and dribble says so much about you.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      07:38pm | 25/02/11

      ZSRenn says:05:49pm; I bet you look great punching that out in your lil red uniform tough guy

    • Gravelly says:

      07:17am | 25/02/11

      She has said a carbon tax would not be a part of a government she leads! So who’s leading this government? Obviously not Gillard.

      So come on you journos, pound her with this simple fact, and please insist she answers!

    • Catching up says:

      09:06am | 25/02/11

      A promised broken against the government doing the correct thing for Australian.  It was a promised that should not have been made. It is a promise that should not be kept.
      It was an election promise to deal with climate change. At no time did Labor give the impression that they would not be addressing climate change after the election.  PM Gillard has stated that she did promise there would be a charge on carbon.
      The carbon tax is a forerunner to ETS.  The carbon tax to be used until a ETS is put in place, in maybe three years.

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:36am | 25/02/11

      So what is your point Catching up ?  The Carbon Tax will do absolutely nothing to assist the environment and certainly has nothing to do with Climate Change/AGW (which is just crap any how). CC is being used as a cover to further the socialist imperative to redistribute wealth. The cost of living will go up for everyone on just about everything, it will force business and manufacturing to seriously consider offshoring, interest rates will be forced up due to the inflationary effect of across the board price increases and there will be no way that Gillard’s compensation fob-off will actually cover the true costs that will be borne by everyone. Gillard clearly and unequivocally stated that their will be no carbon tax under a government led by her. This is one of the most blatant political porkies in Australian history. The woman can not be trusted (and personally I would not trust her to run a chook raffle for the local scout group). The only people that will benefit from an ETS will be investment groups, brokers and bankers who stand to make billions out of speculative trading on the ETS and carbon certificates. What was announced yesterday was a total betrayal of the Australian public by an inveterate liar who is merely a puppet for the true Prime Minister of Australia - Bob Brown.

    • Peter says:

      07:18am | 25/02/11

      I can’t believe the hypocrisy from the loony left .Celebrating over a new tax because they actually believe it will help the environment and make them feel all warm and fuzzy and then turn a blind eye to the fact that as a nation we need to dig up as much coal as possible to sell to China who are increasing their emissions year by year.

    • James says:

      09:34am | 25/02/11

      Don’t you want to beat China, the only way is to move to the new economy faster than they do.

    • WayneT says:

      01:11pm | 25/02/11

      WTF James.  We won’t have any economy left if we head down this path.  Have you any idea what this ridiculous tax on Carbon Dioxide will do to our economy?  Our competitive edge will be lost forever.  Investment will dry up. Ju-Liar hasn’t even produced a cost benefit analysis of this tax for the Australian people to check for themselves.  If she even had one then the proposal should sell itself.  This whole process is being done in reverse just like the NBN was.  Where is the business plan for this new tax?  We haven’t even debated the science and here we are heading blindly into a new tax.  And No, the science is not settled.  There is no absolutes in science, a real scientist will tell you that simple fact.  And economists like Garnau are not Climate Scientists and shouldn’t be relied upon to form environmental policies like this.

    • James says:

      02:36pm | 25/02/11

      WayneT you are going to have to get used to the fact that Australia cannot rely on 19th Century industries if it wan’ts to survive in the 21st century.  We have the potential to be a renewable energy superpower we need to grab future and run with it, it will involve pain but what worthwhile thing doesn’t?

    • Nick says:

      07:34am | 25/02/11

      @ rob charteris and.persephone.There is something seriously wrong with you people .I see you are rejoicing about the new tax but I would love to hear you explain how a carbon tax in Australia will benefit us and the world environment taking into consideration the amount of coal and the projected increases that we as a nation ship to China for them to burn.

    • JT says:

      08:34am | 25/02/11

      They are insane ideologues. In in the end it does not really matter whether you believe in AGW or not, the facts are undeniable; a carbon tax will not make any difference AT ALL to AGW and it never will, it does not matter if tomorrow Australia literally switched itself off - our contribution of global output of carbon DIOXIDE is minuscule.

      This is nothing but a tax by a minority Labor/Green government to alter forever our economy, and fill their coffers. To support it means you are either insane or as likely Labor voters, you are a low income/dole recipient who will be compensated by the rest of us and therefore will know no different in your everyday life.

    • James says:

      11:12am | 25/02/11

      Ah hypocrisy you can always be counted on to show up in the comments of a stooge.

    • Jim says:

      07:55am | 25/02/11

      Persephone - I know you’re ignoring me, and have been for a number of weeks because you know that I catch you out quite easily with your lies and spin.

      But answer me this - if the purpose of taxing carbon is to reduce the usage of fossil fuels, why has the consumption of electricity and petrol actually increased in the last 5 years when prices of these two have almost doubled?

    • DryBlower says:

      09:25am | 25/02/11

      The consumption has increased because of the increase in mining activity.
      Just follow the link you posted to the increased consumption data.
      PS - Pers probably stopped replying to you because you ask stupid questions like this.

    • Jim says:

      01:42pm | 25/02/11

      No DryBlower, persephone stopped posting because I could pick holes in her spin…especially about mining.

      And it doesn’t matter that here are no links - it’s not a dot-the-i’s, cross-the-t’s argument. It’s what the general public are starting to ask.

      Get it?? People are realising they were lied to, duped, conned into voting for someone who’s only concern is her own political ambitions.

    • DryBlower says:

      02:44pm | 25/02/11

      Right Jim
      deniers need no links, no peer reviewed papers, no dataset just a gut feeling I guess.
      Get it??
      Correction Jim
      People are realising they were lied to, duped, conned into voting for someone who’s only concern is his own political ambitions.
      More votes to Labor and the greens next time Jim.

    • Mouse says:

      03:18pm | 25/02/11

      DryBlower, that “his” would be Bob Brown?

    • DryBlower says:

      03:48pm | 25/02/11

      Nope
      Tony Abbott
      but you already knew that.

    • Mouse says:

      04:52pm | 25/02/11

      chuckle

    • Jim says:

      05:29pm | 25/02/11

      Collusion does not equal peer review BlowJobber….I mean DryBlower.

      Do you even know what peer review is? Or is it a phrase you read somewhere and find rather smexy?

      If you are so big on links, then post one that shows CO2 is causing a greenhouse effect! You can’t because there is no proof, despite years of steering and skewing results to try and prove it.

      There is no hot-spot!

    • Peter Simmons says:

      07:56am | 25/02/11

      rob r charteris and persephone are either delusional or they are paid up ALP members bucking for pre selection at the next election.
      They have passed the first test:-  they can lie as good as Gillard and Swan already.
      There will be plenty of vacancies after the next election.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      01:45pm | 25/02/11

      Yes that right fella it’s all doom and gloom. Like what that snivelling dribbling lib called johnny howard was trying to con Australia right before he was supremely booted from office and his own seat I believe. What did he say something about how if the ALP was returned to government the economy will crash… I’m still waiting on that one. That’s right fella butter wouldn’t melt in the liberal mouth… well except Mr Downer eh’

    • David C says:

      02:45pm | 25/02/11

      Johhny Howard PM for 11 years booted by .........Kevvy Rudd PM for 3 years ? no not quite .. who was replaced by Julia Gillard PM for 6 months?
      and booted from his own seat which he held for how long? booted by Maxine McKew who held it for how long?
      I hope you enjoy your weekend Robbie

    • Jim says:

      02:56pm | 25/02/11

      Shhhhh…don’t anyone burst Robs bubble, but the economy kinda HAS crashed! As shown by the need to tax us to pay for the floods, increased interest and living costs, increased utilities bills, more taxes. But it’s OK, as long as we can keep funding African warlords and building Islamic schools…

      Where has all that money gone???

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      04:50pm | 25/02/11

      David C says:02:45pm; I think you better rework that one son, Rudd wasn’t booted from his seat. He retained his seat at the last election… dribble snivel

    • David C says:

      06:22pm | 25/02/11

      I think I was talking about johnny remember how he got booted by Maxine , your anger is stopping you from reading what is written old boy

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      07:07am | 26/02/11

      David C says:06:22pm; why would it be angry? usually people claim such things about other people they dont know are usual the angry ones. I very happy with current events. I see your no literary genius either so there lays the problem.

    • Deepthinker says:

      07:58am | 25/02/11

      Just Google peresphone and see what you get,  could this be the non-de-plume of the queen of disceit herself. She did have a holiday for a while,. However notwithstanding that point, any body with half a brain should realise that this small nations reduction in emissions will have nil effect on any worldwide emissions, it will only decrease our standard of living, make more bureaucrats, make the rich richer, and the poor poorer, and these half brained people will still support labor, because they do not have the ability to think things out for themselves. As for the fear smear,  the lying party really excelled in this area in the 2007 election with their actor workers with their manicured hands and tailormade work uniforms, and make up smeared faces.

    • kerry says:

      08:10am | 25/02/11

      Well, it is no surprise that the comments here divide along party lines. But ... the biggest surprise to me is The Australian’s editorial which frames the debate as much needed economic reform: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/labors-poll-omission-sparks-mps-emissions/story-e6frg71x-1226011590973

      If The Australian (read Rupert Murdoch) continues to support the introduction of a carbon price (tax, call it what you will) I don’t see how the LNP is going to going to be able to stir up the requisite fear to prevent its introduction – and in the process making Gillard’s election promise redundant.

      On another level, I don’t know if CC, AGW etc is real. What I do know is that I prefer to reduce pollution rather than increase it. In the past three months I have managed to reduce my power bill by a whopping 50% - just by not using electricity willy nilly. Just a couple of examples: using a broom instead of a vacuum cleaner and turning off the power supply (at the powerpoints) at bedtime – those standbys use an enormous amount of power.

    • BobM says:

      08:21pm | 26/02/11

      and washing my clothes by hand, reading by candlelight and cooking in a wood-burning oven.  Ahh…..the 21st century under a Labor/Green government - you gotta love it. Fast internet tho…..

    • Cat says:

      08:10am | 25/02/11

      I would support a carbon tax if I believed it was going to make a positive difference to the environment. The reality is that it will not. This tax is about politics, not the environment.
      If Gillard and company announced the planting of a few million trees each year for the next decade I would be much more impressed - and I think most other people would be too.

    • James says:

      09:33am | 25/02/11

      It will start the shift to the new economy, that is the intention.

    • ChrisW says:

      10:47am | 25/02/11

      What new economy James? The one with increased inflation, higher unemployment, lower living standards? Cat is right - this is pure politics and it revolts me.

    • AdamC says:

      01:45pm | 25/02/11

      Spot on, Cat. Anybody who believes that this tax will have any impact on climate change is a fool. The purpose of this initiative is solely political, the price of power for a government that clings on due to the support of the far left fringe.

      James, why do you think people stopped using horses and carts and started using motor vehicles? Why do you think people stopped using the telegraph in favour of the telephone? Need I go on?

      (Just in case you have missed the point, no, there was never any tax on horse shit or the word ‘stop’. So much for a ‘new economy’ based on regressive taxation.)

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      06:08pm | 25/02/11

      That is not such a bad idea. It would be nice to see some of the new carbon tax go towards replanting areas with native trees. In a carbon future this could be of great benefit to the Australian economy. The work in doing so could also cut the unemployment rate by a great margin. It’s not like we dont have the space and we pump tons and tons of possible fertiliser into to ocean every day that could be turned into something useful.

    • Thirsty says:

      08:13am | 25/02/11

      I find it bloody funny how Abbott and Co are out spruiking that this new tax will increase the cost of living…..DUH, thats the whole bloody idea
      10 years ago, Howard introuced the GST, this increased the cost of living for everyone. When it was introduced, people were compensated through tax cuts, increases in pensions etc etc. 10 years down the track, no-one really remembers the tax cuts etc, and the GST, in most parts, has just become part of our everyday lives
      Enter the Carbon Tax, everyone will be compensated, however, the public wont correlate their $15 a week tax cut to the increase in fuel and electricty….you know what happens, people change their habits, they either drive less or buy more efficient vehicles. For electricity, people will take more notice of their usage, change their habits to do more in off-peak times, or get rid of the old fridge and freezer and buy a newer, more efficient model.
      You know what the outcome of all this will be? People change their habits, as well as get compensated. The smarter the consumer, the more they actually come out in front.
      This is an oppurtunity for the end consumer to actually benefit from the carbon tax, not be worse off, you just have to take your blinkers off to realise.
      This will be a massive boost for the solar, wind (even if wind power is a dud..), thermal industries.
      If power goes up to 30c a kilowatt, every household in Australia will be trying to get solar panels on their roof with real time net metering, with a payback period for the upfront cost of about 6 years

    • simon says:

      08:47am | 25/02/11

      Change can occur without the need for taxes, but that’s all Labor know how to do. If you think the tax is so wonderful, you can pay my share!!!

    • Catching up says:

      08:54am | 25/02/11

      According to the Opposition, the price of petrol to rise 6 cents per week.  Less than what occurs on a daily basis.  Power to rise $10 per week.  A amount that would not destroy most budgets. People have the ability to lower their power use.
      A promised broken against the government doing the correct thin

    • Daryl says:

      08:56am | 25/02/11

      Who’s selling the solar panels? The same folk who sold us insulation?

      I can guarantee, that I wont get compensated Thirsty! You see, I pay too much tax to be entitled! I want you to show me where it says that I will get $15 a week and everyone else too. I don’t believe you. Prove it to me!

      this is a fraud and you have fallen for it!

    • Thirsty says:

      09:31am | 25/02/11

      @Simon
      Change doesnt occur without government intervention. Forget about the Labor/Lib divide, the only way peoples habits change is if they are incentivised to do so…that is the point of a carbon tax. I dont think that the tax is wonderful per se, I think that the opputunity that a carbon tax offers is a wonderful oppurtunity for people to actually be better off, they just have to take their blinkers off
      @Daryl
      Last time I looked mate, governments werent selling solar panels…in fact, they didnt sell insulation either, they just created the environment for these projects to prosper. You can guarantee me that you wont get compensated without any facts what-so-ever, but you want me to prove the compensation. Just for you Daryl, I will let you in on my very complicated calculation for compensation. Electricity to go up $500 a year, fuel to the average user to go up $250 a year. I am using IPART calculations from NSW, more accurate than politician estimated. $500 plus $250 = $750 a year increase. Consumers to be fully compensated. $750 divided by 50 weeks (just to make calc easy for those mathimatically challanged folk) equals $15 a week.
      @Daryl, the only fraud committed mate is made by those in our community going off half cocked before they read and/or understand any of the details in a very preliminary plan

    • Mouse says:

      10:30am | 25/02/11

      Thirsty, what is there to read? What plan, what details?  ” We don’t know what the carbon price for will be nor do we even know what the emissions targets will be. We don’t know how much will be given in compensation to polluters or households and whether it will apply to transport and fuel.” (Gillard’s make or break carbon price plan- The Punch 24/2/11) You must have crystal balls to be able to work out what rebate homes will get back then. The rebates will not be given to everyone either btw, only low income households.
      And, just for your information, when the GST came in, many taxes were taken off the item first, such as sales tax. state tax, federal tax, etc, in fact up to 20% off on most items. So, by the removal of these taxes and the addition of 10% GST, many items were in fact cheaper. And we still got tax cuts from the Howard government!  Unfortunately The Democrats stuffed around with it and had some items excluded from GST before they would pass it in the senate. Petrol, cigarettes and alcohol were some of them. We have CPI increases in the state & federal taxes on smokes, grog and fuel every 6 months! And now we will have a carbon tax as well. Great!

    • Thirsty says:

      11:31am | 25/02/11

      @Mouse
      Non processed food, plus some pharmcutical items are excluded from GST
      Petrol, cigs and alcohol definetly have GST added to their price, in fact, we pay GST on top of the excise for all of these items
      If you think that GST lessened the cost of living, please look at the inflation figures for the September 2000 quarter, inflation spiked 7% because of the GST (was a once off)

    • ZSRenn says:

      12:54pm | 25/02/11

      @Thirsty Howard had the gonads to take GST to the polls and won. You have no argument on this point until Julia is willing to do the same thing regarding Carbon Tax and gets the mandate she claims she already has despite going to the polls saying she wasn’t going to introduce it. I really have a problem with that call by her. Just a little unnerving.

    • Chris says:

      01:08pm | 25/02/11

      But you see Thirsty, it like this

      Why the hell Tax somebody and then compensate them back in the first place, the compensation basically renders the whole tax redundant. So why pay it.

      But the price of Goods and services still goes up because the providers of said Goods & Services pass on cost increases (Carbon Tax). Go figure.

      And guess what, we still pay GST on the increase, another 10%.

      Face it - ITS A WEALTH DISTRIBUTION EXERCISE. If that’s what you believe in politically, then fine. Lets see what the people think in a few months time, that will be the defining moment, no amount of antagonistic blogging will change that.

      YOU DON"T TAX YOUR WAY TO PROSPERITY.

    • Thirsty says:

      03:11pm | 25/02/11

      @Chris
      You miss the point of a carbon tax completely
      If you increase the price of something, such as electricity, this is a once a quarter expense where consumers really see the price increase. Consumers wont really notice the compensation that they get in each pay packet, so when the first electricity bill comes in, it is a shock, so they change their behaviour
      We are dealing with humans and what their natural instancts are…they have better recollections of negative impacts than positive ones…they will always remember price increases, they very rarely remember small tax cuts
      This is the basis of a tax like a carbon tax. The exact same principal would apply if cigaretes or alcohol were hit with a special heath tax, but this was refunded initially across the population. No-one in 12 months time will remember the small refund, but everyone would remember the initial price hike and change their begavour accordingly
      @ZSRenn
      Your argument is very valid, I am not trying to say that Labor has done the right thing by the electorate by not committing to this in the election, what I am saying is that a carbon price is an oppurtunity for prosperity if done correctly, that is why Greg Hunt, the Libs shadow environment minister, completed a thesis for his Honours on this very topic

    • Mouse says:

      04:08pm | 25/02/11

      Sorry Thirsty, yep, my bad, I should check before I submit!
      But yes, a lot of things WERE cheaper, ie packaged food, clothes, white goods, etc, because the taxes & excises on them had been removed before the GST was added. Petrol, smokes & grog did not, so had the GST added on top, thanks to the Democrats as part of their trade off! 
      Early 2000, pre-GST, saw a spike in consumption as buyers purchased goods that they thought would be more expensive with the GST. Come 1/7/2000, consumer consumption and economic growth declined, creating a negative growth in the first fiscal quarter of 2001. It all returned to normal once people saw that the GST didn’t really effect day to day living. 
      Now Labor wants to add a carbon tax to nearly everything.  I say again, GREAT!!!!

    • Chris says:

      04:09pm | 26/02/11

      Hi Thirsty

      Sorry, but you miss my point, this is just another wealth distribution excersice, pure and simple. This will no more reduce carbon dioxide emissions than me flying to the moon.

      Go and have a look at how power is produced today, and compare it to 50 years ago, it miles cleaner.

      My point, the rate of pollutants produced today compared to years back is far less, and is decreasing as time goes on. The human race knows it pollutes and reacts accordingly. We don’t have to no tax them into oblivian to “fix” the problem - don’t know if you remember the great protests back in the 60’s and 70’s regarding this stuff. Go back and have a look, we didn’t tax them then, why do it now. ????

      What stop people smoking, more tax on cigarettes, increased taxes or health warnings - prove it one way or another.

      Same with drinking, did athe alocpops tax stop that “epidemic”, no. - go figure again.

      Taxing folks doesn’t stop jack squat, and you know that. so cut the fake defense of this wealth redistribution excersice.

      Oh, and by the why - SHE LIED, pure and simple. Love or hate Johnny, he went to the people with his change of heart.

      Remember Paul Keating, proposed a GST (option c) then took down John Hewson with the same policy. Thats politics, so is this, but this isn’t TAX RFORM, its a government sticking there hands in peoples pockets for no apparent gain, other than replenishing government coffers.

      Over to you

    • Dash says:

      08:24am | 25/02/11

      There are a number of things about this tax which stink!

      1. Unlike the GST, the ALP deliberately mislead the Australian people during the elction campaign. No matter what they say, they lied to get themselves returned to office and now will try to force on the population something they do not have a mandate for.

      2. the government has not adequately demonstrated the need for this tax. They have not demonstrated the impact on the environment. They clearly are using the environment as an excuse to raise a huge new tax.

      3. this is clearly an exercise in Socialist wealth redistribution and this is the bit which stinks the most. the government is planning a compensation scheme. But guess who will get compensated. That’s right, the traditional ALP voter. The lazy arsed bum on the welfare take may even be better off whilst the people creating the nations wealth get screwed. It’s communism. plain and simple. It’s a disgraceful exercise in punishing the wealth creators and rewarding the wealth destroyers.

      The silent majority needs to stand up now. The government has no moral or ethical right to inflict this on the population!

    • Catching up says:

      09:02am | 25/02/11

      Labor made a stupid promise not to introduce a carbon tax.  At no time did they promise there would be no charge on carbon.

    • Dash says:

      09:28am | 25/02/11

      And they have introduced a carbon tax. Comben on tv last night said we could call it a tax! No matter how you try to dress this pig up, it’s still a pig! The ALP lied and mislead the people of Australia. They were not transparent and they were so concerned about the impact on the last election, they said the opposite of what they intended. It is fraudulent! And I must say, typical of the ALP!

    • jb says:

      08:26am | 25/02/11

      If this is truly a Gillard idea WTF were those other idiots doing standing behind her and scratching their heads.
      Seriously who is the prime minister of our beautiful country and what party is in government?
      You one eyed labor guys really need to lobby your party to bring in someone with some brains like that ex foreign minister from perth!

    • Graham The Great says:

      08:27am | 25/02/11

      So smug was bob brown that he sent in his mouth piece to do the talking then she stuffed that up.  Whose policy is this the greens or did joolya think of something herself.  This bullshit tax will push many more Australian’s to the brink of financial destruction.  Maybe we have to do something particularly that we want to maintain our lifestyles and probably the major polluter is the power industry.  Have a look even bob hawke is talking nuclear what hypocrisy should have been done years ago!

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:31am | 25/02/11

      Does anyone else notice when a government creates an information vacuum, the media just ignores it. I have heard plenty on this tax to date but I am yet to hear (and I think this is due to a lack of information from the government)

      -  Why Labor lied before the election, or what circumstances have allowed them to change thier mind

      - The price on carbon (pretty important you would think)

      - Why no economic effect study has been carried out

      - And the big one, the actual effect planned or imagined on the environment.

      Of course Labor don’t want to give away details on the bad stuff, of course they will deflect and not answer the media’s questions. Don’t then say oh well, I wonder how the politics of this will play out.

      We are talking about a substantial tax on a catastrophic (if you believe it) environmental issue, and the media seem uninterested in getting answers to the large questions. A couple of negative front pages would sure loosen up Labor’s tongue I am sure.

      How about “Gillard the Liar” or “What is Labor Hiding”, great for getting readers attentions and factually correct.

    • dennis says:

      09:12am | 25/02/11

      The issue is change and our ability to deal with it.  Finally we have a way forward which moves us away from our dirty habits.  Of course the battle cry of Abbott is we will tax less - Liberals have been spouting this nonsense for centuries.  No one likes new taxes but they represent change.  Abbott cried wolf about the mining tax - but it benefits most of us as did labor’s changes to income tax.  The rhetoric does not match the reality Abbott - I paid considerably more tax under Howard (even allowing plenty for this new proposal).  Who is treating the Australian public as gullible and mean - Abbott.  Which party demoralized our armed forces to perpetuate a lie about Asylum Seekers - Liberals.  Fear and Deceit and treating us as a bunch of morons - the trademarks of the Liberals.  Do you really want to fall for that again?  I thank Gillard for some leadership.  Abbott’s rant about betrayal is nonsense - just give him a chance and he will show you what betrayal really means (more profits for business, more taxes for most of us - and a smiling monkey!).

    • JT says:

      09:24am | 25/02/11

      Has someone left the door open to the loony bin? or has the Labor party put the word out to get their interns to flood The Punch.

      The issue is not change, the issue is the Prime Minister of Australia lost her majority, cobbled together a minority government, swore black and blue there would be no carbon tax and now announces the introduction of one. A tax that will a) do absolutely nothing to stop AGW (if it exists) b) will hurt the very structure of the Australian economy c) increase the cost of living significantly across the board for no benefit whatsoever and all you can reply with is this is change!?

      You are insane, it is really the only explanation for believing that paying more for no benefit is a good thing.

    • Daniel says:

      11:32am | 25/02/11

      So we pay more tax for the things we already use, then it is given back to us (minus government handling)??? Are you people serious?

      I would rather keep my money in the first place

    • Not Amused says:

      02:38pm | 26/02/11

      Dennis, whatever you think of Abbot, his party is most definitely NOT Liberal.

      Of course the battle cry of statists is we will tax more - statists have been spouting this nonsense for centuries [even milleniums]. For historical example, socialism is what destroyed the Roman empire; socialist welfarism and socialist debasement of their currencies. In the end, the Romans had to resort to direct acquisition of goods. Of course, they didn’t have a name for socialism over 1600 years ago; but it is clear now what was happening as the Empire overextended.

      The price of commodities, resources etc is heavily determined by international market forces. The mining tax would have significantly deterred investment in domestic operations, exploration and capital expansion, whilst conferring a competitive edge upon our Russian, Canadian & Brazilian rival mining firms. What would be gained in public coffers would be lost elsewhere in forgone tax revenue and forgone economic activity within Australia.

      Please do not comment on such issues because it is clear Dennis that you have a very poor understanding of economics, if at all. I would be surprised if even knew what economics actually is, and the assumptions & values implied by it. You scratch your head in confusion as to why people won’t act the way you think they should act, ‘tax em all’ you say, ‘that will force them to change’.

      When will you idiots learn that usury - profit without work - is UNSUSTAINABLE (that ought to be a word you’re familiar with).

      Take your authoritarianism elsewhere, it is not welcome.

    • Gladys says:

      08:32am | 25/02/11

      Does Oakeshot have nits?

    • NicoleG says:

      09:40am | 25/02/11

      Hahahaha.

    • Dash says:

      10:49am | 25/02/11

      He doesn’t have any balls we know that. So he needs something else to scratch. And I think he’s grown the beard so he can be in disguise when he’s back in Port Macquarie.

      8% of his electorate voted ALP and now he’s as good as an ALP minister! Bloody disgrace!

    • Lyne Ball says:

      11:25am | 25/02/11

      The Good people of Lyne support Oakshotte unequivocally.
      We elected an independent. and trust his judgement.

    • N says:

      12:39pm | 25/02/11

      Gladys; There is an age old saying “Lie down with the dogs, wake up with the fleas”, Mr Oakeshot is finding this out first hand…

    • Reg says:

      07:20pm | 27/02/11

      The intellectual level of the discussion is falling so it’s not surprising to find dear Nicole here.  wink I thought she’d be off doing a Medea on her kids to save them from those nasty despicable rotten lefties.

    • nossy says:

      08:33am | 25/02/11

      The ambush is now set Mark and all that is left is for Tones Abbott to walk smack bang into it viewers - because he knows if he ever became PM he too would have to set a price on carbon ! I suspect we will now see big divisions open up in the Liberal Party as the Moderates appalled at Abbotts Dr No response will want to divorce themselves from him - may take 6 months but it will happen - in the end Gillard will have Abbotts hairy little scalp on her belt !  hahahaahah Shit Happens Tony !

    • Z says:

      03:09pm | 25/02/11

      You can pick the welfare recipients can’ t you??
      The ones who laugh at others misfortune knowing they’ll still receive their pensions.
      Why go to uni? HECS debt
      Why go to work? Pay ridiculous taxes
      Why not just bludge and vote Labor woo hoo

    • Billy B says:

      06:28pm | 25/02/11

      nossy - You are a tosser!

    • Drew(Darlinghurst) says:

      08:34am | 25/02/11

      We take out house insurance
      We take out car insurance

      Why the hell not take out insurance on Planet Earth ????

      Congrats to the Labor Minority Govt for having to guts to TAKE A STAND ON CLIMATE CHANGE

      As we know the Liberal /National Parties dont believe in CLIMATE CHANGE…SCHMUCKS !!!!!

    • Syl says:

      11:12am | 25/02/11

      Drew

      Can you please explain, in simple terms (i.e. no bullshit party spin) exactly how this tax will help/change the damage caused by Man-made Climate Change (if it exists).

      Can you also explain why it is OK for an elected (well sorta) leader of our nation to obtain that leadership by putting forward a very specific promise “there will be no tax on carbon etc” then backflipping after the leadership was gained.  To most people this is a blatant lie at best, gross fraud to obtain power at worst.

      The fact remains, the people did not vote for this tax, they overwhelmingly voted against it.  I didn’t vote for Julia, I also didnt vote for Abbot but the majority of Australians voted for one or the other.  They sure as shit didn’t vote for Bob “Hippie” Brown, so why are we getting his policies??  And why is this OK?

      If you cannot answer these questions, yet ca still crow on about “insurance policies for Planet Earth” (lol), you sir, are an idiot.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:52pm | 25/02/11

      “TAKE A STAND ON CLIMATE CHANGE”
      What, by increasing our cost of living to do nothing at all?  Seems like a common theme on this topic.
      How much can we expect average global temperatures to change under this scheme Drew, assuming humans are responsible for all climate change?

    • David C says:

      01:30pm | 25/02/11

      or if your queensland you have no insurance

      i have insurance on my house , its about $1,500 a year, makes sense I agree.. but the issue here is would you have insurance if it was $30,000 a year?

    • Ryan says:

      08:37am | 25/02/11

      And queue all the Labor pollies trying to draw attention away from their Lying unelected PM by pointing at something or someone else.
      “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead.” Dirty ratbag liar, nothing more, nothing less, lets hope the public have finally woken up to the fact that Labor will say anything to get into power but do absolutely none of it.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:43am | 25/02/11

      The real issue is not Gillard breaking an election promise. That’s fairly normal for all sides of politics.

      The real elephant in the room is Gillards bizarre claim that “The Australian people voted for a carbon tax” and “I have a mandate for a carbon tax”.

      Seriously weird stuff, and in my opinion bordering on the sociopathic.

    • emel says:

      08:43am | 25/02/11

      Great piece Mark Kenny.
      You hit the nail on the head. Gillard is either brave or suicidal. And Abbott is as predictable as ever with his ‘hell, fire and damnation’ attitude to economic/social/environmental progression.
      I for one am glad that there is something tangible and so important to the future of the aus economy to differentiate between the two parties.
      The multitude of lame-arse respondents above that suggest that Bob Brown is leading the agenda in Federal politics shows how small minded a lot of people are about the reality of a diminishing fossil fuel driven economy.
      Leadership takes guts and foresight.
      Someone (and it might as well be the affluent and highly polluting/consuming Australians) needs to take the lead.
      History shows that the conservative (free-market) approach to world management is slowly bringing the planet to it’s knees, as gutless world leaders talk the talk of environmental concern but walk the walk of greed and self interest.
      It will probably be her undoing though - people respond to fear and even though taxation is for the greater good of all of us, how it affects the hip pocket will always reign over philanthropy.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:18am | 25/02/11

      “Leadership takes guts and forsight”

      Good one! So tell us please was it a case of she didn’t have the guts to tell us about the Carbon Tax before the election or she didn’t have the forsight to know she would have to implement it!

      “Taxation is for the greater good of all of us”:-)

      Maybe that should read

      “Taxation is for the greater good for all of us on the dole”

    • emel says:

      11:21am | 25/02/11

      ZSRenn,
      Cutting and pasting your arguments from mine is lazy but reminiscent of Liberal policy.
      Leadership is knowing when to negotiate and when to walk away from dead policy.
      Gillard is running a minority Government. Do you know how this works?
      What possible incentive is there for her and her party to make life easier for welfare recipients?
      Or are you 60-80 years of age and recycling your rhetoric about welfare rorts that you learned from from watching 60 minutes?
      ‘Joh for PM’  - does this make you sad?

    • ZSRenn says:

      12:46pm | 25/02/11

      @emel it’s called quoting you and then replying to the quote. I think a valid form of argument. I believe the Punch team agrees with me as the moderator allowed the comment to be published.

      I agree “Leadership knows when to negotiate and when to walk away from dead policy.”

      That is why TA was not able to form government. He walked away from $1 billion for a Hobart hospital which he new was overspending. He walked away from NBN because he knows before it is finished it will be redundant and requires a much bigger spend to fully integrate it into the www. That is leadership and look what it has achieved in a short six months. Julia is running out of money fast with all her promises and needs to add two new taxes within those six months making her very unpopular and very unlikely to be reelected at the end of term if she makes it. .

      I thought I knew how a minority government worked. I thought it was about including minorities to have a say in decisions of the government. But I have learnt that I am wrong. It’s about giving the minorities whatever they want so you can remain in power. Julia taught me that. Thanks Julia.

      It is fact that of the thousands of polls taken regarding voting those lower income earners which include welfare recipients other than pensioners statistically votes Labor. This I think would be incentive enough for her to assist them and maintain her voter base.

      So then you follow with textbook ALP personal attack regarding my age. No I am not. I am however a creation of my own personal thinking and if you take time to read some of my older posts. You may wonder why I am taking this stance now.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:58pm | 25/02/11

      Grow up emel, he directly addressed things you said.

      And on that
      “and even though taxation is for the greater good of all of us, how it affects the hip pocket will always reign over philanthropy. “
      Are you kidding?  How is doing something that will have no measurable real world effect and increase our cost of living “for the greater good of all of us”?

    • emel says:

      01:54pm | 25/02/11

      ZSRenn,
      I apologise for making it personal. However your tendency to stereoptype linguistic behaviour based solely on voting preference is also flawed,
      You argue that the ALP’s base comes primarily from the lower socio-economic platforms of society and welfare recipients are in this group. Bollocks.
      For a start many pensioners and older ‘poor’ Australian voters are conservative in their thinking and this group is reknown for it’s sceptisism about greenhouse gasses and global warming. Hardly the supporter base for a carbon tax!
      Secondly, the ‘green’ vote is not confined to the outer suburbs of major cities wherte the majority of poorer people tend to live. Your argument seems idealogically based and somewhat confused.
      Are you suggesting that doing a deal with a minor party with whom you have formed government is somehow wrong? Are the Greens going to be happy to just ‘have a say in Government decisions’?
      Do you believe that Messers Abbott and Co would stand strong and risk losing office if they were in Julia’s shoes?
      They would be talking to the Greens about a carbon tax straight away if they had formed a minority govt with them.That is for sure.

    • CD says:

      01:58pm | 25/02/11

      Guys I think you really have to give poor lil emel a break. Has to be his first foray into blogging surely. On top of that he’s found a new religion.

      I figure he’s really young, excited as a little puppy to have acceptance in the Labor ranks and will spout whatever he’s told to. No details necessary just push on with the good word comrades!

      His naivety was so gosh darn cute, it just made my day.

    • emel says:

      02:31pm | 25/02/11

      CD,
      7 things:
      1. have you been watching ‘Leave it to beaver’? (should serve to satisfy your unusual interest in my age)
      2. I am not blogging.
      3. I am not a member of the ALP or The Greens.
      4. Go and fix Ben81 a drink.

    • Ben81 says:

      10:34pm | 25/02/11

      Cheers emel i’ll have a bottle of imported beer of some kind thanks, apparently by purchasing and drinking a single bottle I will almost equal most of the carbon emissions i’ve saved for a whole year using those energy saving lights i’ve had to buy.  Oh green schemers, what’s next?

    • Aasq says:

      06:12pm | 27/02/11

      Incorrect, ZSRenn. Tony Abbott offered a billion dollars to Andrew Wilkie for a hospital, and Andrew Wilkie turned him down.

      Abbott then even sent perpetual fall guy Andrew Robb onto Lateline to confirm that the offer still stood “win or lose office”, which you can watch again here if you like. Here’s the transcript ...

      TONY JONES: ... Does that offer of the $1 billion for the Hobart hospital remain on the table? I mean is that a commitment you’ve actually made to the people of Hobart, or is it just a bargaining chip for an independent?

      ANDREW ROBB: No, that was a decision that we took to put on the table win or lose, win or lose office.

      TONY JONES: So that’s there now, that’s now in your costings, is it? $1 billion, a definite guaranteed offer to the people of Hobart for their hospital?

      ANDREW ROBB: That is now a project which we will factor into our long-term spending program, along with the other major infrastructure programs that we’ve got…

      TONY JONES: Is it a commitment…

      ANDREW ROBB: We’ve got a prospect…

      TONY JONES: I’m just trying to understand is it a commitment to the people of Hobart, that there’s a $1 billion…

      ANDREW ROBB: ... that’s what I just said…

      TONY JONES: ... on offer from your government?

      ANDREW ROBB: I thought I just confirmed that, Tony, yes.

    • simon says:

      08:44am | 25/02/11

      Gillard is the most deceptive liar in Australia’s political history. She can never be trusted on anything, and this carbon tax will be her dramatic downfall!!!

    • ;o) says:

      08:48am | 25/02/11

      Seems like Bob and his hippy’s have the pull over Gillard. The photo above really shows a clownfest on who is making all the decisions for our future, this is a real worry.

    • Broke $$$$$$ says:

      08:52am | 25/02/11

      $o what is it going to cost me…..
      Before some one has a go at answering this, H$w much is the N B N going to cost me, as well as our p$wer bill$ increasing , Oh there is Fuel as well, H$w much.
      Thanks but the answer for me is easy ,
      Far too much for me and my family to live above the poverty line, i only earn $20.00 per hour and work only casual as that is all that is on offer for me.

    • $$$$$$ says:

      01:02pm | 25/02/11

      Edumacation might help you rise above the poverty line.
      PS try getting less tatts and start drinking cheaper piss.

    • David C says:

      01:38pm | 25/02/11

      sorry to hear that Broke, and to think the ALP is supposed to be the party of the battler.
      and before all you tax buddies jump on that one , sure you might get compensated but how ?? a tax rebate maybe .. what does Broke do in the meantime to pay the extra costs? take out a loan maybe ??

    • Peter says:

      08:56am | 25/02/11

      If enough people contact these Labor members and let them know how they feel about a carbon tax then there might be hope of another back flip and knifing.

      .http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/member_photo_party.asp

    • James says:

      09:03am | 25/02/11

      Great big new tax, great big new tax, big new great tax, tax big new Great!  If people vote for this braindead clown I weep for the future.

    • Malleeringneck says:

      09:06am | 25/02/11

      All the people who support the carbon tax must have plenty of money to pay for the higher cost of everything.
      AND DO NOT FORGET that as everything goes up in price because of increased power costs the GST will also add an extra 10% onto that increased cost.

    • Jedi_T says:

      09:06am | 25/02/11

      Just some facts for the people.
      Australia produces roughly 1.43% of the worlds total carbon emmissions.
      Now Hypothetically.
      If this “Carbon Tax” manages to so much as get a 20% decrease in Australia’s emmisions, that will reduce the worlds out put by 0.28%.
      OMG, WTF, WOW!
      So what does this Tax acheive?
      Answer: Nothing!
      Thats right we wont affect anything.
      This will be Gillard’s Achilles Heel.

    • James says:

      09:35am | 25/02/11

      Starts the shift to the new economy

    • Jedi_T says:

      10:23am | 25/02/11

      Please explain this new Economy James?
      Whats in it? What does it do? Where does its resources lie & what affect is it going to have on people in say the Manufacturing Industry (of the old economy)? Will their jobs be subsidised by the govt until they relocate to your new economy?
      But even if you have answers, that is your reasoning for a carbon tax. Not the ALP Minority Govt’s. Their line is its helping the earth (per their green masters). But as the above facts state, we wont be making an sort of true difference.
      So in truth this is just another TAX imposed by an inept Govt!

    • Sluggo says:

      11:22am | 25/02/11

      It will certainly affect the habits of Australians who currently have the second largest carbon emission footprint per capita on the planet.

    • BR says:

      11:28am | 25/02/11

      Jedi_T;
      I think you’ll find of that 1.43%, the majority of carbon pollution from Australia is in the form of bushfires and natural plant decay.

      Globally, manmade carbon emissions make up less than 3% of the total, so I strongly doubt Australia is contributing to half of the total. The top three “carbon emitters”, which make up 96% of the overall, are from a combination of volcanoes, plant decay and bushfires.

      I’m interested to understand how Bob Brown and Julia Gillard plan to legislate against these naturally occurring events, I’m not sure Mother Nature has a billing address or TFN….

    • Sluggo says:

      01:04pm | 25/02/11

      BR
      The data sets and peer reviewed papers that you link to are pretty compelling arguments.
      If you hadn’t published them, I suspect I would have just thought you pulled those statistics out of your arse.

    • Matt says:

      01:36pm | 25/02/11

      James: Is that like a new paradigm, only greener?

    • James says:

      02:39pm | 25/02/11

      It is an economy based on a transition to a low carbon society, something Australia stand to benefit massively from.  We have the best solar resource, the best wind resource, excellent geothermal, thorium, heaps of aluminium, iron ore, rare earth metals, cheap land etc.  We would be fools not to move first.

    • Sluggo says:

      03:20pm | 25/02/11

      Interesting BR
      perhaps you missed the part where I said
      “The data sets and peer reviewed papers that you link to are pretty compelling arguments.”

      Do you have any of these, or just more links to denier websites?
      Perhaps you might just want to wander back over to wherever you came from - I have my suspicions it has something to do with TheHun

    • Catching up says:

      09:09am | 25/02/11

      PM Gillard labelled a liar.  Yes she did change her mind but I have not heard anyone on the Labor side saying the promised was not made. Peoples revolt.  I wonder who they will rebel against,   government or the Opposition.

    • Ron E Coote says:

      09:10am | 25/02/11

      @ Thirst.
      Errr, Thirst. All great concepts mate, but if they are so great and worth now, why were they such a bad idea 6 months back, that they were denounced by Gillard herself when she said no to them before the election.
      The plebs in voterland were tricked, it would seem. Lied to by a woman who stabbed her leader in the back to become PM, and barely cobbled together a government on the back of these lies.
      If it wasn’t an illegitimate government before, it certainly is now.
      People don’t like being lied to, and whatever the virtues of this tax, it will be forever tainted by the deceitful means under which it was introduced.

    • Thirsty says:

      10:04am | 25/02/11

      @Ron E Coote
      I agree with your premise, re Gillards unscripted reply about not having a tax on carbon….totally agree and this should be rammed home strongly
      What I am trying to say is that if you draw yourself away from what Gillard said in the election, and actually have a look at the policy, it is a massive oppurtunity for consumers to prosper.
      I really dont care if a pollitician breaks an election promise if they make a decision that potentially makes everyone much better off. You can concentrate on the negatives, or you can grasp the positives and run with it for all your worth. Half the population will whinge and moan and be worse off, half the population will embrace the change and be significantly better off…you just have to decide what part of the equation you sit on.
      A very simplistic comparison is when a new road is built and a toll is placed on it…you can pay the toll but be better of in terms of travel time, fuel consumption, wear and tear on your car, or you can bitch and moan, keep to your old route and never see the positives that can come from making a change in habit. For me, the M7 is a perfect example when I travel from the Hunter to the South Coast

    • The Original Oz says:

      12:07pm | 25/02/11

      Honestly Thirsty - What colour is the sky in your world?  What massive opportunity for consumers? The opportunity to pay higher prces for electricity, gas, petrol, all manufactured goods, all transported goods, forced interest rate rises due to ensuing inflation. Or are you referring to the opportuinuty to choose between having electricity, gas, transport or feeding the family. Plenty of choices there or maybe the opportunity to have our jobs outsourced to overseas, lose what’s left of Australia’s manufacturing capability. Are these the OPPORTUNITIES you are referring to/ You misguided troll

    • Thirsty says:

      03:22pm | 25/02/11

      @The Original Oz
      If you dropped the attack dog mentality and actually read wht I wrote then you might see what I am trying to say
      if all consumers were compensated about $750 a year (this will be every year) because of the carbon tax, but changed their spending, consumer habits, such as using power off-peak, using more efficient appliances etc etc, you end up paying less carbon tax in a year than your compensation, hence, you are in front. That is the colour of the sky in my world
      I hope that come 1 July 2012, if the tax gets up, you and your ilk are still whinging about it, whereas people such as myself will have been looking at ways to benefit from the tax, such as solar hot water, buying a diesel powered car, putting up solar panels and hooking into time of use net meterering etc etc, all of which is much more rational with a carbon tax in place. I will have been able to reduce my carbon footprint, but at the same time, get compensated based on the fact that I am still an “average carbon emitter”.
      Its not rocket science

    • Democrat says:

      09:17am | 25/02/11

      Gillard said she would introduce a price on carbon.  Gillard also said she would not introduce a carbon tax.  However, the voters delivered a hung parliament which means that the government has to deliver on promises such as introducing a price on carbon by negotiating with those who provide the balance of power.  The result is systems which may not be the preferred choice but do deliver the promised bottom line - in this case a price on carbon.
      However while Gillard has had to negotiate in the House Abbott had no such restraints when he promised as Health Minister that the Medicare Safety Net was set in stone and immediately after the 2004 election doubled the thresholds that people had to reach to qualify for benefits.  That qualifies as a broken promise - perhaps the even the ‘greatest betrayal in Australian history’ since it betrayed families and increased cost pressures in respect of their families health.  It is right up there with lying to the Australian people when in 2001 Howard and Co. told us that parents had thrown their children overboard from boats.  A lie for which he have never apologised.

    • Ross says:

      09:27am | 25/02/11

      Politicians lie dictaters dont have to ,get over it we will all have a say at the next election . It’s not like this is the first time, thats what they do.

    • James says:

      09:28am | 25/02/11

      Tony reckons he is going to lead a peoples revolt every second of every minute of every decade, he is sounding more and more like Gadafi every day, the man is losing it.

    • kerry says:

      09:56am | 25/02/11

      Give the poor man a break - he’s trying to sound Churchilian:

      “Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule (read the Gillard minority government), we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.”

    • kerry says:

      09:56am | 25/02/11

      Give the poor man a break - he’s trying to sound Churchilian:

      “Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule (read the Gillard minority government), we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.”

    • Rick says:

      03:32pm | 25/02/11

      Losing it…..........He never never never had it

    • Holly says:

      09:42am | 25/02/11

      I love all this chatter.  Quite obviously a great number of the commenters get their entire political knowledge from Tony Abbott’s slogans.  They are quite unaware of what is happening in the wider world and in the world of business in this country.  They are surprised that the editorial in the Oz praises Julia Gillard.  Julia Gillard understands the economic shifts taking place.  Tony Abbott can only parrot his mantra - he is too lazy to see the opportunities for Australia.  More likely he does understand the opportunities for Australia but is prepared to lie and drag Australia into an economic backwater to get elected as PM.

      Question time yesterday was very instructive.  I urge all of you to read the speeches.  Julia Gillard was strong compared with Tony Abbott who was all bluster and froth and Shakespearian analogies.  Here’s one for Tony “full of sound and fury signifying nothing”.

    • Adam Diver says:

      10:04am | 25/02/11

      I love how you claim we are getting information from slogans and the best you provide is “opportunities for Australia”. Would you care to elaborate on these opportuities.

    • Jedi_T says:

      10:26am | 25/02/11

      Please enlighten us Holly on the “oppurtunities for Australia”?

    • Nick says:

      01:22pm | 25/02/11

      Yes Holly .would love to hear about these opportunities..

    • Jedi_T says:

      01:28pm | 25/02/11

      I take it Adam, there is no oppurtunities for Australia?

    • James says:

      02:41pm | 25/02/11

      Wind turbines need aluminium (we have aluminium), New renewable power plants need steel (we have iron ore), we have the best solar resource, the best wind resource, electric vehicles need rare earth metals (we have lots of rare earth metals), do you want me to go on?

    • Adam Diver says:

      03:13pm | 25/02/11

      @ James - Please go on

      We have a sh*tload of coal and uranium too just quietly. We also have no decent processing for our resources (at least not competitive) why do you think we ship it O/S and then buy back the value added product?

      Solar and wind don’t work champ, well not for any standar of living that I expect (or any first world country).

      Rare earth metals belong to China and Afghanistan mate. We won’t be competing there.

      So you are right there is real opportunity to mine, process and then dispose of Uranium. Credit where it is due.

    • James says:

      02:45pm | 26/02/11

      Don’t be a jackass Adam Diver, urainium is a fart in a hurricane compared with the potential of our solar resource, do some research.  We are fools not to push for solar with everything we have.

    • Tom Jones says:

      09:46am | 25/02/11

      Another policy by the Socialist/Green Lefty Parties of Australia. If U look at the bigger picture, Its s all about control. I for 1 do NOT want the Govt controlling the peoples power. Sure they do it ATM with State Govt pricing BUT having a system where the Fed Gov increase electricity prices then gives U money back some of the money, so U can afford to keep your lights on, your food cold, to shower, to heat your house, isnt how a free country works.  This doesnt even touch on the hit to inflation where businesses will increase prices because they dont get subsidized, which in turn will raise RBA rates. So in the end, you get hit with power prices, higher prices on everything AND higher mortgage payments, just so we can reduce CO2, which BTW the general public dont contribute to in any meaningful way.  If this extreme Left Govt wants to have a real debate about in about reducing CO2, why arent we talking about nuclear. Replace coal with nuclear over 10-20 years, and suddenly you have a 40% reduction WITHOUT hurting the people. The utter betrayal she has done to the Australia people by saying “There will be no carbon tax in my Govt”  in an election campaign and to turn around and do it, should and will never be forgotten.  The Australian political process has been hijacked by the DANGEROUS Green party, and they will destroy our country, with their far left Socialist agenda.  WakeUp people before its too late.

    • Warren says:

      10:44am | 25/02/11

      @Tom Jones, we are already paying for the impact of climate change. Insurance companies and organisations involved in business risk management have been factoring-in the impacts of climate change into their policies since the seventies. These organisations are bastions of capitalist philosophy, not members of some extreme left-wing conspiracy trying to gain more power. Your arguments belong in the school yard, grow up.

    • BR says:

      12:33pm | 25/02/11

      Warren; Except in the seventies it was all about global cooling and entering into a new ice age. Amazing how over the course of 40 years, we have about faced, and now its global warming. I can only suggest that as global cooling didn’t eventuate like it was supposed to, insurance companies and risk managers had to look for a new boogieman; they found it in “climate change”, which really covers both instances and there exorbitant rates.

    • Rick says:

      03:41pm | 25/02/11

      Wake up before its too late….....we live in a fish bowl…...do we just continue pumping out shit into our enviroment at an ever increasing rate? Of coarse not. There has been progress in all areas of pollution control and we will continue to improve. This is just one more mesure aimed at improving efficientcy and hopfully curbing the aproaching disaster.

    • Peter says:

      09:30am | 28/02/11

      Hello Tom,
      Nuclear power is in fact the dearest form of electricity you can get, the ones allready in operation receive huge government assistance just to stop them going broke, next they still use a steam turbine but instead of heating with Coal its uranium, it has a half life in tens of millions of years making Carbon look like a pansy in poofter fight.

    • Tom Jones says:

      12:43pm | 28/02/11

      Thanks for the kind replies. First off the bat, its AMAZING how if anybody says they don’t want a carbon tax,  they take this as they don’t want carbon reduction.  I agree we need carbon reduction, what I don’t agree with is Govt infiltrating our home and ordering us to use less or they will affect my way of life. That’s what I oppose. We need to have a sensible debate about how to increase base load, and everything should be on the table.  Business knows they need to reduce carbon and taking steps to address it. Second thing I despise ATM is people running around saying 35 countries have a ETS or CT. Great, and how much has CO2 dropped last year because of these programs… Hint… None. Thirdly, some people saying NZ has a system. Well since most of their power is generated from hydro and they only have 5M people, it isnt that hard. And then for NZ to introduce a ETS, just goes to show, its all about the money. Interesting to know, since NZ introduced this in 2009, there economy has gone backwards (Look at the GDP growth) Every since it was introduced, there GDP has fallen. Even before the quake last week, their economy is slipping back into recession. Coincidence or effect?

    • Random ALP zombie commenter says:

      09:48am | 25/02/11

      What a GREAT DAY for Australia !

      Everyone who isn’t a fiberal tosser know that climate change is the moral imperative of our time, which is why our BEST PM EVER (except Gough Whitlam, praise be upon him) had to let the Greens force her to break her election promises !! That’s LEADERSHIP !!!

      In any event, everyone except for Mr Negative Tony rAbbott knows that govt’s always have to brake election promises anyway. Look at little jonnnY Coward, who brought in a GST after promising to at the 1998 election. What a LIIAR and a cheat !!!

      Why doesn’t Foney Toney and the Coalition just accept that they are CRAP and should accept whatever our Dear Leader decides (with the help of the cross benchers) ???

      What a NEGATIVE NELLY !

    • Elphaba says:

      10:05am | 25/02/11

      Hehehehe grin

    • Rick says:

      03:22pm | 25/02/11

      Spot on the Fieral party deserve to spend an eternity langwishing in the political back waters for their lack of forsight.Their leader is a sandwich short of a pinic as has been proven time and time again oh well shit happens

    • Brian says:

      04:03pm | 25/02/11

      Zombies don’t have brains and it shows.

    • Tiger says:

      09:56am | 25/02/11

      I have to laugh out loud every time the PM whines about Abbott “opposing” everything she comes up with. Um….isn’t that his job? He is the Opposition Leader after all!
      As for the carbon tax, why were a whole heap of green initiatives recently axed in exchange for flood levy support, particularly those that would encourage (read: financially assist) people to switch to greener alternatives?
      Or is this way better for the government to get its hands on a whole heap more money before *ahem* “distributing” it back to the people?
      Isn’t the end result the same?
      Seems to me this is one long chain of rather well thought out strategy by stealth. Pity the concept is flawed.

    • C1 says:

      10:08am | 25/02/11

      I think the biggest challenge in this is the selling of the message. Perception is everything and if Gillard is spedning her whole time defending her position, then she is not trying to package this framework in a way that can be clearly and succinctly explained to the electorate.
      This was the problem with the Republic Referendum - the republican movement could not explain clearly why we needed to change. They assumed everyone would want it because they did - there is a lot of similarity here as well.

    • Ben says:

      10:09am | 25/02/11

      without a carbon tax how else are we meant to move towards a cleaner economy? its simple, give a bogan some money, he’ll waste it on a diesel truck, make the diesel truck and running costs out of his reach and said bogan will have to buy a fuel efficient green car. win for the environment and win for the bogan.
      green economies are the way of the future like it or lump it

    • dex says:

      11:01am | 25/02/11

      Its not a win for the bogan because he now drives a Prius instead of the diesel truck. Its not a win for the environment because the Prius will still break down, and eventually end up as non-recyclable rubbish. Perhaps we could focus on education rather than dictatorship eh?. I like Jacques Frescos ideas of a resource based economy, needs are met and not exceeded, and the environment is taken into consideration by science, not politics.

    • BR says:

      01:03pm | 25/02/11

      Ben; you forgot about the price of your tofu going up under this model, since the “bogan” trucky now charges more per kilometre for transport costs. At the end of the day pricing carbon will just equate to significant inflationary pressures as everyone tries to re-coup the additional costs.

    • Greg Davis says:

      10:10am | 25/02/11

      Australia contributes 1.28% of global CO2 emissions. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions). Therefore, if we dropped our emissions by 20% that would drop world emissions by 0.25%........... Is it really necessary to introduce a tax to beat Australia’s into submission to achieve an inconsequential reduction in global emissions? It is completely irrational to think that a carbon tax in Australia will have any meaningful impact globally. For the record I believe that it is worthwhile investing and providing incentives for investment in alternative energy technology research. I think for Australia to institute radical measures to curb emissions to ‘save the world’ is really nothing more than a form of self flagellation. Some may argue that by taking the high moral ground we can influence developing economies like India and China. Again I would suggest that such a notion is irrational. There is no evidence of Australia’s lead on human rights setting any sort of example for China. Why would they shape there policy of emissions based on what Australia does

    • Warren says:

      10:30am | 25/02/11

      @Greg Davis Australian’s are one of the worst polluters per head of population. We are also one the the wealthiest countries in the world, we can afford it. We have a moral responsibility to join other nations in tackling the problems of climate change. This is just the first step in a long and difficult process in trying to address the issue. We cannot just put our heads in the sand & pretend the problem will just go away.

      To those who think climate change is a communist conspiracy. Do you honestly believe we can keep pumping pollution into the atmosphere without any consequences? You wouldn’t do that to a river, or an ocean, or the land without expecting some negative impacts. Why is it OK to pollute the air?

    • Daryl says:

      11:00am | 25/02/11

      Bloody hell Warren. Go hug some trees!

      Please explain how introducing a new tax will help. And please explain why the ALP feel the need to hand my money over to some lazy arse who sits on the beach all day because he meets their definition of being poor! Why do the hard working successful people need to be the only ones who pay?

    • St. Michael says:

      12:17pm | 25/02/11

      @ Warren:

      *headdesk*
      *headdesk*
      *headdesk*

      Show me any other nation on the planet which is “tackling” climate change at the insane level that Australia is about to.  Where else in the world has a carbon tax or is even contemplating it? Even the bloody third world is screaming they don’t want carbon taxes or carbon trading, because it pushes them further into poverty while the rich nations of the planet get to play hippie.

      Nobody’s putting their heads in the sand yet, because nobody’s proven conclusively that there’s even a problem which exists.

      Climate change probably isn’t a communist conspiracy on its own.  But when Al Gore, a.k.a. Patient Zero, came out with An Inconvenient Falsehood, he basically chucked a big old can of petrol on the fire and gave them a lot of oxygen and a nice green cloak to hide under.  A number of people prominent in the communist movements in the sixties have reappeared in the Green movement of late.  What does that tell you?

    • Marian Dalton says:

      10:45am | 25/02/11

      Memories are short - or perhaps commenters are too young to remember. Possibly the most infamous broken promise from the Liberal Party was Howard’s ‘never ever’ statement - as in, there will never ever be a GST. That’s a promise he took to the 1996 election, and 18 months later broke with the excuse that what he ‘meant’ was ‘not in the first term’.

      He was pilloried for it, but it went ahead, and the next election showed that he didn’t suffer for it. Now he proudly proclaims it as being a case of doing what’s right, not what’s popular.

      Gillard needs to do the same thing - front the public and say exactly what Howard did. Weaselling around ilke she is now just makes her vulnerable. If she comes out as strong, willing to admit she broke a promise for the right reasons, the sting is taken out of Abbott’s thundering cries of betrayal.

      Then Labor can spend its energy tackling the scare campaign that’s already started - figures pulled out of the air, Chicken Little running around screaming that the sky is falling and a whole lot of climate change deniers oozing their way out of the corners to misrepresent facts and jump out from behind icebergs wearing rubber masks and yelling, ‘Boo!’

      That’s where the real battle will be.

    • MarK says:

      01:38pm | 25/02/11

      “Chicken Little running around screaming that the sky is falling”

      Errr as a denier I say the sky is not falling.

      You are mixing your metaphors.

      Best not to post when emotional dear.

    • ZSrenn says:

      02:22pm | 25/02/11

      For the 20th time in this discussion. John Howard took the GST to the poll and the Australian electorate voted it in. He had a mandate!.

      Please take the time to read the forum before repeating the same ol same ol.

      If you are old enough to remember the vote you should be old enough to remember that little tit-bit. Or do you suffer from selective memory loss.

      When Julia does the same you can then argue this point to your hearts content.

    • Peter says:

      02:31pm | 25/02/11

      Marian,

      When Howard changed his mind about the GST he took his policy to the electorate who voted in favour of it “BEFORE” it was introduced.

      Will Gillard have the same courage? I somehow doubt it.

    • Rick says:

      03:00pm | 25/02/11

      Absolutely correct how short are the Liberals memories John Hewson went to an election with the GST as policy.He went the way of the dinos. Jack boot Johnny said never never never,LIAR LIAR,LIAR.For all the NAYSAYERS even if global warming is a crock , it is time to start using energy more efficently surley if only for economic reasons

    • Rick says:

      03:11pm | 25/02/11

      for the 20th time in this debate Jack Boot Johny NEVER NEVER NEVER took the GST to an election policy. This is not selective memory it is fact.

    • Peter says:

      05:11pm | 25/02/11

      Rick…You may want to check your facts before you post…here’s a hint google ‘1998 australian federal election’.

    • Mark says:

      10:51am | 25/02/11

      “Crazy brave”  ??  That’s funny.  Clearly this is nothing more than what Gillard obviously promised the Greens in turn for the Prime Ministership.  She delibrately broke a promise to win the election, and now she is asking us to trust a Government that can’t run a website properly to redistribute 16BN per annum effectively.  And for no climate effect.  There is nothing braze about this mate,  just the result of our worst ever PM’s desperate trade with the Greens to stay in power.  What a disgusting and destructive person we have leading this country.

    • Maginthatey says:

      10:55am | 25/02/11

      This is not a tax…it is a long overdue debt. For too long we have been reaping resources from the planet with no intention of ever paying it back. Perhaps now, with a price on carbon, we might start paying the true value for something that for too long we have been abusing and subsidising. Anyone that believes this wont lead to lesser emissions is either a fool or extremely greedy and selfish. Well done Julia, future generations will be forever grateful to you and your government for having foresight on issues that some people will never ever come to grips with or understand. I congratulate you, three cheers for Julia.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:12pm | 25/02/11

      Right.  Lesser emissions from Australia, perhaps, which makes up 2% of the world’s total carbon output.  Lesser emissions from the rest of the world? Not so much.

      I could maybe accept the need for such a tax if (a) the science were more reliable than magic right now; and (b) everybody else was contemplating this and we have to show leadership on it.

      Sadly neither is the case.

    • Mr GG says:

      12:25pm | 25/02/11

      No Way….
      As someone that says there is climate change and has been for longer than either party. the ETS is Bullsh!t, it is a tax by corporate elitist to try and slow the growth of China and India. It is Politics and Bad Politics at that, For the amount Julia and Kevin spent debating it we could have already built acres of solar farms if the true reasoning was to reduce carbon, you see an ETS is a last ditch option for already over populated nations that cant afford to put aside 100 hectares of land to commit to Solar farms. We here in Australia can easily do that we are sparsely populated and bathed in Strong Sunshine, an ETS is very bad for Australia it is obvious that Labor have are just borrowing someone else’s policy as it definitely hasn’t taken into account the unique circumstances of Australia, it is Suitable for European nations or the USA but not really for us.

      Most of Carbon pollution comes from mining and not everyone shares the wealth from mining(remember that tax got scrapped) so why is everyone having to share the price of their extra pollution?? they made the profit they should pay, they are selling it overseas so foreigners should also bare the cost of getting the materials they want to buy out of the ground.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:41pm | 25/02/11

      @ Mr GG: Ergh ... where do I start about the concept of “lacks a baseload power source”, “5-10% conversion rate from solar to electricity”, or “night time” on the subject of solar power…

    • Robin says:

      10:57am | 25/02/11

      Australia could by bankrupting ourselves and reducing our population to zero could become CO2 neutral. Whoo Hoo.This will delay the onset of global warming by a few weeks.

      Whoo Hoo. Watch for Ford, Toyota and Holden to source their cars from China within 2 years. They are by far the largest producers in the world.

      http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/book/tex/ps/113.252.pdf

      This book available for download off the internet should be required reading for all Australians. It will give you a very good understanding of alternate energy

    • Robbo says:

      11:02am | 25/02/11

      Is the Govt also banning the exportation of coal to other countries??
      If not they are basically endorsing fossil fuels and CO2 output for every other country but our own.  Please explain how this can be in the national interest??

    • Paul C says:

      11:32am | 25/02/11

      Just heard about the Alan Jones Interview - LMAO - I can see there are a few people left who are willing to defend “ju-liar” - Labor staffers and union drones I suspect.  Before you start making comparisons with the GST announcement from John Howard - Just remember he called an election, to let the people decide, before it was introduced.  Time will tell whether your Gal has the balls to do that. Alan Jones is a Champ - Just when is this guy going to get on TV - Would be more useful than ACA or Today “Me Too” Tonight.

    • Scarneck says:

      12:11pm | 25/02/11

      @ Paul C -  “Alan Jones is a Champ” I find that comment more amusing…he’s not a champ, he’s a ‘shock jock’, get it? As for your “whether your Gal has the balls to do that” it’s time for you to find a woman, they don’t have balls mate.

    • Rick says:

      03:05pm | 25/02/11

      Incorrect He (Jack boot Johnny) never never never went to an election with the GST as a policy as for Al Jones being a champ what is he trying to sell smells like fish to me

    • Randal says:

      11:36am | 25/02/11

      Gillard has played this card all wrong, she has bent to the will of the Greens in order to keep her government alive and in the end that will cost her when she faces the people.

      If she had announced that it was her intention to put in place the mechanism for a carbon tax and that this would ultimately be taken to the people before being implemented, she would have kept her pre-election pledge, and made the argument about creating a cleaner energy future for Australia.

      Instead she has made it about a breach of trust, and presented herself as a cynical leader who said anything to win, one whom the Australian people could never trust again.

      The only reason for this would have been under pressure from the Greens, and to have announced this with Bob Brown at her side raises the additional question of who is actually running the country.

      The decision may win back votes that the ALP has lost to the Greens but it will alienate middle Australia, as they are most affected by increases in cost of living pressures, and they will react savagely to being lied to in such a direct manner by the Prime Minister of this country.

    • Swingdog says:

      11:42am | 25/02/11

      I’m shocked! Shocked, I tell you to discover a politician has broken a promise in this place!

      Fair enough, judge the policy on its likely impacts, positive and negative, but stop pretending you’re all in a Year 8 civics class and have just learned that people lie to you.

    • TimB says:

      12:12pm | 25/02/11

      We did. It’s a dud policy and shouldn’t be implemented.

      That’s why Labor shouldn’t have been voted in so we wern’t inflicted with it. Except they deliberately lied about it so they would still have a chance of winning.

      I guarantee you had Gillard said during the election that this was her policy, Tony Abbott would be PM today. That’s why we’re pissed. It’s not the fact that she lied, its about the impact of it.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:14pm | 25/02/11

      Swingdog, are you happy that your cost of living is going to very noticibly go up to do something that will have no measurable impact on climate change at all?  People are upset because it’s a lie that is really going to hurt people.

    • glenm says:

      01:39pm | 25/02/11

      Just what policy is that , she hasn’t actually given any details, in fact its not a policy at all ,its a intention. An intention that is straight out in conflict with the commitment she made to the australian people at the last election. That is an issue of significance. Surely we should hold our politicians to a grester standard than just accepting dishonesty.
      As for your suggestion to examine the “policy” ,it is a complete sham. I will explain it to you.. Gillard places a price on carbon, products which create carbon will rise in price, Consumers will pay higher prices, the government will offset the higher price by giving rebates or tax offsets to low income earners ( probablyunder $50k /annum, based on the current flood levy proposal. The wealther will pay the higher prices. In order to reduce emissions these people will need to reduce reliance on carbon emmiting items ie electricity and petrol. This will then make the polluter look for altenative methods to produce thier product without paying the carbon tax. However high income earners who are more likely to be able to pay higher petrol and electricity charges are unlikely to reduce use but rather absorb the cost.  So the money goes round with no nett benefit and certainly no reduction of carbon. The only thing this policy will do is create a new government beaurorcracy. So by all means look at the policy that apparently you either voted for or dont care if we this government introduces.

    • Aasq says:

      06:29pm | 27/02/11

      So you voted for Labor then, Tim ?

      Who would’ve thought it.

    • TimB says:

      08:45pm | 27/02/11

      AASQ are you also Reg? You’re making about as much sense as he does.

    • Aasq says:

      09:57pm | 27/02/11

      So if you didn’t vote for Labor, Tim, what “impact” did this policy have on your vote, and why would Tony Abbott be PM ?

    • Reg says:

      05:37am | 28/02/11

      Oh Timmy you must be feeling so inadequate that your comprehension is so poor.

      Argue as you will about who may have been elected or when, one thing is certain and that is that if JWH had not been so emphatic and dishonest about the “never never” edict, people may have been listening when he slipped one under the net a day or two before the election. But don’t feel too poorly, we know how difficult it is for you to wear details such as this.

      Perhaps you need some English comprehension lessons.

    • TimB says:

      09:24am | 28/02/11

      Reg “never ever” was 2 YEARS and an entire election before 1998. HE went in with the GST on the table for the ‘98 election. No-one was confused about where he stood.
      Unless you were. But that probably says more about you than it does about John Howard.

      AASQ, I’m flattered that you think my vote is so important, but I was clearly referring to the *other* votes it influenced.

      You know, people who voted for Gillard thinking that she wouldn’t implement this tax. Had Gillard campaigned honestly on the issue many Labor voters would have decided they didn’t want a carbon tax and switched to the Coalition.

      Is it clear enough for you now? Or do I need finger puppets?

    • Aasq says:

      02:22pm | 28/02/11

      Then why didn’t you vote for Labor, Tim ? What happened to the “impact” of their policy ?

    • Pete #205 says:

      12:09pm | 25/02/11

      “She lied!  She lied! Screech!  Schreech!”.  For heaven’s sake, get a grip people.  It’s politics.  Who gives a flying fig?  Take some personal responsibility and you too can manage the increase in the cost of living.  Are all you whingers telling me that you’ve done a full energy audit and figured out that you’re running as efficiently as possible?  Walk that extra two metres and switch your LCD panel off instead of standby.  Need heating higher than 20C in winter? Get a sauna, or maybe, put some clothes on. 

      Do you smoke?  Quit.  Paying $110 for premium Fox?  Cut back to Fox Sports or go to the club.  Like your beer?  Buy a case every fortnight instead of every week.

      Politics is grubby and I despise the fact that Gillard lied, but the only way to effect change is to hit the hip pocket.  There is a better way to do almost everything we do every day.  Quit whinging and just do it.  Whether you believe in climate change or not, the overiding principle should be:  Don’t sh#t where you eat, and right now, we are taking massive dumps in the middle of our own kitchen.

    • John says:

      01:05pm | 25/02/11

      I fully believe in climate change. However, has it occured to you Pete #205 that while we reduce our carbon by 20%, our population increase will far negate any benefit….... Does this make sense to anyone but the ironically named Greens or Labor party?

      I can assure you, there are not too many ecologists that do not see population as the NUMBER 1 issue by a very long way.

      All that fluffy stuff like saving plastic bags, saving whales and clean up Australia day matters squat if we don’t control our population both here and even more overseas. Please watch this vid and understand how much trouble we are actually in.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

    • Ben81 says:

      01:08pm | 25/02/11

      “Who gives a flying fig?”
      “I despise the fact that Gillard lied”
      It seems you do.
      And thanks for the money saving tips, captain obvious.

      Now, the inescapable fact is that ‘whether you believe in climate change or not’ this tax will have **zero** measurable effect on it in the real world. 
      I’m not going to just ‘whinge’ about the infliction on everyone of an increased cost of living to achieve this, i’m going to shout from the rooftops until this pathetic excuse for a government and this tax is history.

    • WayneT says:

      01:30pm | 25/02/11

      But change for what.  Show me one peer reviewed paper that shows a direct link between human produced Carbon Dioxide and so called global warming.  That’s because amazingly there isn’t any.  There is no consensus, and the science is not settled.  Who decide it was settled - AL Gore?  Before we rush headlong into a tax on Carbon Dioxide maybe we should have an actual debate on the science behind this decision.  And I’m not talking about QA on the ABC, but a real debate where scientists from all disciplines put forward the real science.  To date this has never happened.  To date people like Al Gore will not accept any invitations to debate the science because according to him the science is settled and that’ that.  But who decided that?

    • luke says:

      02:38pm | 25/02/11

      The new carbon tax will not halt the natural cycle of climate change and will be of no benefit to our environment. The carbon tax is to compensate big business to satifise the global warming scaremonger’s investments and will pass on costs to the everyday Australians.

    • Pete #205 says:

      02:50pm | 25/02/11

      John, yes population is an issue, but control of that is beyond me (aside from the fact that I’m not planning on having a big family).  And China’s one child policy has had unintended social impact, given that there are entire generations that are the “only child”.  What do you propose we do?

      And Ben, what I’m seething about is the reaction of Punchers.  It’s the rabid partisan attacks of people who see the Government as the be all and end all.  This Government is bad, but you really think we will all be better off if Tony Abbot sat on the throne?  How will he make it all better for the suffering masses?  How? No new taxes?  Unlikely.

      Energy demand is driven by consumption.  It’s called supply and demand I’m led to believe.  “Obvious” as it is, do you use more energy than you really need to?  Do you buy more trinkets than you need to?  I’ve had one too many smoker whinge to me about tax hikes before even considering quitting.  That’s plain gutless and soft.

      And if you’re saying that the “fact” that the tax will have no effect in the real world because of what the rest of the world is or isn’t doing, then why do you even bother to get out of bed in the morning?  If this encourages energy companies here to develop alternative energy generation techniques, that we can then sell to the rest of the world, then that’s a win.

    • Ben81 says:

      05:09pm | 25/02/11

      “This Government is bad, but you really think we will all be better off if Tony Abbot sat on the throne?” 
      Yes, definitely.

      “How will he make it all better for the suffering masses?  How? No new taxes?”
      By not introducing a tax that is by design intended to increase the cost of living for people and doesn’t provide any real world benefit for that pain.

    • Pete #205 says:

      07:47pm | 25/02/11

      Ben.  What do you make of Tony Abbot’s paid parental leave scheme funded by a “levy”?  It’s a serious question.  Would you not see that cost passed onto you in one way or another, just for some middle class welfare?  Where’s the benefit in paying that much to “working families” for us as an entire population?

      Although I might have suggested a carbon price may be good, I didn’t intend to say that I support it.  I just don’t think that we, as a nation, would be better off at the moment with either party in power.  Hence my “do it for yourself and get on with it” rant earlier.

    • Ben81 says:

      10:27pm | 25/02/11

      Pete, I happen to disagree with the parental leave scheme but at least it has a real world tangible benefit from a relatively small hit to households in general.
      On the other hand, we’re talking about something here that will hit them hard, with no result at all.  See the difference?

    • Bruce says:

      01:02am | 26/02/11

      Still no one wants to talk about global birth control to reduce or slow down the planets population. Less people, less reliance on resources…simple !

    • Pete #205 says:

      10:10am | 26/02/11

      Ben, I do see the difference and a carbon tax is indeed on a bigger scale.  I just don’t think either side is immune from relying on great big new taxes/levys/contributions.

      Can I ask your reasoning for a carbon tax having no effect whatsoever?  I’m not one to espouse economic theory, but surely if you hit the hip pocket, it will encourage changes in behaviour, which then has less direct benefits.  I was thinking along the lines of that it encourages Australian companies to develop alternate energy sources, which we then export.  Up goes goes GDP or whatever, more new jobs - and tech jobs which we really need to complement our primary industries.  Of course theory and practise are a different thing, especially with a government in the middle of it all.

    • Reg says:

      08:29pm | 27/02/11

      It may be difficult for some to see the potential for positive social change in this move, so I shall point to the dramatic alteration in society drinking habits that heavier drunk-driver penalties brought, and yet still there are those who abuse the privilege. Obviously the penalties are not high enough.

      With even greater pressure for rampant fuel consumption at home, how else are we going to bring a greater responsibility, other than by imposing a penalty?

      London had to ban coal fires in the city limits to save people from centuries of recurring lung diseases caused by normal domestic fires. That was a penalty with a much appreciated return, but only to those who remembered the previous agony it had brought. Doesn’t this have a similar intention?  Even in Sydney domestic fires need more restriction as well as controls on those who flood the street with the smoke from their snug wood fires.

      At the moment there is no pressure to explore the possibility of heat storage in domestic thermal inertia sumps and yet success with this could save gigantic amounts of energy as well as being reversible for cooling.

      Business will suffer you say? Of course, the Air-Conditioning installers and others are going to have to retrain because their current industry is too inefficient and expensive of resources.

      In summary, the drink-driving problem cost lives and property, and the law brought greater consideration for those suffering the costs while currently acceptable methods of home heating and cooling are nothing more than tossing money and natural resources at the problem. This is not really acceptable in the medium or in the long term.

      Those who think that ostentatious consumption is a God given right will have to be brought to a different set of values if the long-term costs are to remain bearable.  Yes, perhaps even the anti-nuclear lobby if consumption and pollution cannot be brought down to acceptable levels.

    • BM says:

      12:14pm | 25/02/11

      Bob if it’s too bloody hot on this planet feel free to find a new one, may I suggest Pluto? I hear it’s a little cooler and may be to your liking.

    • Fred Firth says:

      12:16pm | 25/02/11

      To anyone who did elementary science at school, the Global Warming theory is pure hogwash!

      Most , but I suspect not all, people would feel their intelligence was being insulted if they were told that an Alien Invaders from outer space tax was to be introduced. And after a few years some private individuals would be granted a franchise to print their own currency, with us providing all the capital and them providing the ink and paper. This is exactly what we are getting!

      We will need a prison levy after next July to accommodate the millions like me who will refuse to pay any form of carbon tax.

      The only science behind AGW is political and behavioural science.
      By the way, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown are only regional administrators. The United Nations who rule our lives now.

    • Fred Mirth says:

      01:19pm | 25/02/11

      Fred the scientist
      Can you explain why there are no peer reviewed papers debunking AGW?
      No datasets that show AGW not to be true?
      Do you have anything besides scaremongering and lies?

    • JT says:

      01:51pm | 25/02/11

      “Can you explain why there are no peer reviewed papers debunking AGW?”

      In a 2 second Google search I found over 800.  Copying your illustrious leader are we Fred? by lying through your teeth

    • Fred Mirth says:

      02:49pm | 25/02/11

      In your dreams JT
      800 google hits a peer reviewed paper do not make.

    • Richie says:

      12:49pm | 25/02/11

      Taxing carbon won’t stop it’s use, it’ll just slow it down. Globaly we’ll use all the fossil fuel until it’s gone! By then, at the rate of population growth the world will have 60 gazillion people. What then?

      It’s up to us to yell loud and clear. This government must go!

    • Motherless Child says:

      01:10pm | 25/02/11

      Do you mean governments in general?
      Because different government means same shit different day.
      What do you propose we do with all those leaderless gazillions?

    • Richie says:

      03:56pm | 25/02/11

      Yep good point Motherless Child…

      The wrong people end up being in power both here and globally.

      What I propose we do is shut shop of western countries, reduce our pop with time…. and aid other countries with food and shelter for a SUSTAINABLE future….

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      12:51pm | 25/02/11

      Carbon tax in 2012 a.d.
      I dont think so.
      Aussies will fight this one.
      This has got to be the WORST labor Govt Ever..

      Labor, gillard and the green alliance will be nothing but a Dot in Australian History.

    • Against the Man says:

      01:17pm | 25/02/11

      You have to give fake PM Gilltard credit. She really did her parents proud by being even worse than Kevin Rudd aka the less than one termer aka air hostie fighting ninja aka cry baby millionaire. A tough non-effort that only she could get away with. Well done Baby Cakes smile

    • Bruce The Gose says:

      01:49pm | 25/02/11

      @ATM
      Agree our illustrious leader Julia “Liar Liar Pants On Fire” Gillard is making Krudd look the goods.
      Who would have thought that could ever be possible.

    • PeterMax says:

      01:04pm | 25/02/11

      Jul-iar is a disgrace to Australia and the Office of PM.  She will say and do anything to try to save HER job.

    • MarK says:

      01:05pm | 25/02/11

      So lets recap shall we.

      Gillard and Swan lied. Lied straight to our face. To hang onto power she is happy to lie.

      This is not all. And most here have missed the most salient point. Look at her words (grain of salt please everyone) in the Telegraph today.

      http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/fairest-way-to-clean-up-our-act/story-e6frezz0-1226011574412

      “A carbon price is a price on pollution. It is the cheapest and fairest way to cut pollution. The best way to stop businesses polluting and get them to invest in clean energy is to charge them when they pollute.”

      Well no Julia. A carbon tax is not a price on pollution. You are wrong in fact. You then make a nonsensical statement to back it up.

      “The Government will then use every cent raised to:

      * ASSIST families with household bills;

      * HELP businesses make the transition to a clean energy economy; and

      * TACKLE climate change.”

      Well booyah. And now I am really really worried. Under the CPRS and ETS proposed by Rudd (and Howard to my disgust) all the money went back to alleviate cost of living pressures.

      What is horrifying is that you have included “Tackle climate change” as a final resting point for the cash.

      There is not one green scheme you have delivered that made any economic sense. You said so yourself and admitted as such when you axed the cash for clunkers and other wasteful programs for your first tax grab of the year. Now these are back on the table. Funded by us.

      Sort of perpetuates the tax and spend meme of Labor does it not?

      “The Government will not shy away from this difficult but vital economic reform to move Australia to a clean energy nation.”

      Liar.

      You did it with Rudd and then executed him. You did it before the election to win power. You reneged after the election to win power. You are all over the place. You now want it to retain power.

      Note the one constant. It is all about power.

      You are inconsistent and a disgrace on this issue.

      “The global economy is shifting. Australia is at risk of falling behind the rest of the world.”

      Yah. As all countries move away from carbon pricing and trading?

      Another lie.

      “The longer we wait, the greater the cost to the economy, and the greater the cost to Australian jobs.”

      I call another lie. You have done no modelling since ditching this under Rudd. You have explained no detail, exactly like your health plan, about this scheme.

      You have no basis to make this claim. You are lying.

      “Today’s proposal is the result of hard work by the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee which has been meeting co-operatively, determined to help deliver this crucial economic reform.”

      Why then did you just employ Flannery? Is it to sell this? Are you that afraid?

      Julia it is simple. You have NO conviction on climate change. Politically you are are for it when it suits you. Politically you are against it when it does not. You did not at any time discuss this with your chief scientific advisor who quit in disgust no doubt.

      What you are is a shallow, vacuous empty vessel adrift . You do not steer. You are being steered. Your decisions are based around power -  gaining and retaining. Your convictions and decisions change with the times, fluidly, embarrassingly and cowardly.

      The most amazing thing I saw was you on the 7.30 report last night. Not once answering a direct question and into pure attack mode and strawman tactic from the opening utterance. You cannot sell this so you attacked Abbott. You are so lacking a skill set outside of “negotiated” capitulation to resolve issues that are inconvenient it is scary. You are lacking in all departments.

      I am embarrassed you lead this country in name. I am embarrassed that Labor thought you were a leader.

      I am ashamed my Prime Minister lies, boldly, without remorse and without a qualm. I am also deeply ashamed my local member acquiesces to this. I pity you and feel for all Australians that will pay the price for your vanity and excess.

    • nossy says:

      03:24pm | 25/02/11

      @MarK - hai MarK - hows that application coming to join Whiney Pyney MarKy - has he replied yet fella ?

    • TimB says:

      05:35pm | 25/02/11

      MarK, you might be one of the few of us in a position to do something about this.

      I know Oakeshott is deeply unpopular in Lyne, but what about the Carbon Tax itself?  Is there enough people there be able to bring enough pressure to bear against Oakeshott to change his mind on this?

      He has to know he’s going to lose his seat if he continues on this path & defies the will of his electorate.. Although he probably figures he was going to lose it anyway….

    • Scarneck says:

      08:36pm | 25/02/11

      MarK says: 01:05pm “Well no Julia. A carbon tax is not a price on pollution. You are wrong” - Why is she wrong MarK?

    • MarK says:

      08:51pm | 25/02/11

      He will lose it anyway. He is past the point of no return.

      All there is for him is to try and get a post politic job.

      This electorate is not Green. Look at any vote in state or federal elections. Normal level of Green vote no more or less. They are irrelevant here. Climate change means meh to Port Macquarie. It is a take or leave it proposition. If you go back to the recent state by election where no Labor candidate ran (2008) the Greens got like 5% of the vote at the federal by election they got 7% I think. pretty poor.

      But like all irrelevant topics if you use it to raise a tax ....well that sucks. Especially in a town of retirees. Very large self funded and government funded aged population. Many many nursing homes. Any price increase hurts and hurts bad. Fairly high overall house prices, lots of mortgages….you get the picture.Add to that as soon as you leave the coast there are very few hippies but plenty of ockers.

      Makes it a nasty mix for him I believe.

    • Aasq says:

      06:41pm | 27/02/11

      Thanks for that excellent news, Mark. It’s good to know that there’s no reason for Rob Oakeshott to change his mind.

    • Anja Tangent says:

      01:12pm | 25/02/11

      It’s here, it’s fear, get used to it.

      In a radio interview this afternoon, Tony had the perfect opportunity to state he would repeal this tax if he is elected into govt and he dodged the question.

      Game over.

      Next, a radiation tax for the sun!

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      01:49pm | 25/02/11

      Hey anja,
      You got blocked ears,
      Said yes in the West.

    • Nick says:

      01:29pm | 25/02/11

      Think of the opportunities…the Labor trolls say..yet just like Gillard no substance just one liners.
      Lets hear about some of those opportunities in detail with the associated benefits explaining how they will improve Australia’s standard of living and how business nation wide will prosper.How carbon levels will fall and by how much..

    • WayneT says:

      01:31pm | 25/02/11

      It amazes me that we have all these debates about bringing in a Carbon Dioxide Tax when there hasn’t been any kind of rigorous debate about the validity of anthropogenic influence on global warming.  There is not one peer revued paper that shows a direct link, yet the science is settled – who say’s, Al Gore?  It’s gone from Anthropogenic Global Warming to Climate Change, because it’s harder to argue against the climate changing which has been happening since the birth of the planet - very clever.  And just a little scientific snippet - Carbon Dioxide is not a pollutant, it is produced in nature in vast quantities.  Natural carbon dioxide makes up only 0.0387% of all trace gases in the atmosphere.  And of that figure, human produced CO2 makes up about 0.0012%.  That’s equivalent to about 3% of all Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere.  And of the total CO2 produced in the atmosphere, the Earth re-absorbs about 94 to 96 per cent.  The actual biggest contributor to the greenhouse effect is water vapour.  Shouldn’t we declare water a pollutant and set a price on this instead?  Lets actually sit down and argue the science first and get some real truths from observable science rather than base our whole economy on climate models that don’t hold up, then we can sit down and agree or disagree on a Carbon Dioxide Tax with all the actual facts laid out for all to see.  You have to ask why the politicians aren’t willing to do this.  Maybe because in the end it isn’t about the science, that would just get in the way.  It’s really about holding power, redistributing the wealth and making the people beholding to the Government.

    • Rick says:

      02:45pm | 25/02/11

      The Sahara desert was once the cradle of civilization…........proof enough of anthropogenic influance ?

    • Brian M says:

      04:52pm | 25/02/11

      No Rick, all it proves is climate change, unless of course the Egyptians were highly industralised and put out a lot of CO2.
      The issue here isn’t about whether our climate is changing (of course it is and has and ever will be), its about what is causing it; humans or natural processes. We need to be looking at ways of mitigating future changes, not blowing our economy to reduce CO2 which will make no difference whatsoever.

    • WayneT says:

      05:13pm | 25/02/11

      Yeah Rick, must have been all the factories and power stations that the Egyptian Pharaohs had at the time - fool.  There is such a thing as natural climactic change and shifts, added to this the deforestation of vast areas of vegetation which use to hold the desert(s) at bay.  Carbon Dioxide levels have been 8 times higher than today and temperatures about 6 to 7 degrees higher than today without the any anthropogenic influence thank you very much.  Take Al Gore’s photo off your mantle piece and seek the truth for yourself.  I use to be a true believer too until I stopped listening to the MSM.  At least genuinely listen to both sides of the science first before committing your faith.

    • Nathan says:

      05:35pm | 25/02/11

      When did it “go from Anthropogenic global warming to climate change?” The IPCC (I’ll let you look up what CC stands for) was initiated in 1988, so considering the scientists chose “climate change” in the title, rather than IPAGW, suggests to me you are talking rubbish.

      Natural carbon dioxide emissions and absorptions roughly balance each other out. An analogy is your savings account. You receive $40000 after tax, spend $36000 and save $4000 into a separate bank account. After 10 years, you have $40000 in your bank account, 100% of your income, yet you only saved 10%! In the same way, as we emit more CO2 than is absorbed, it accumulates in the atmosphere. This means that the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere that is a result of our emissions is not 3%. I think this is rather obvious and I would suggest that your mathematics is also rubbish.

      If you want to see how the debate has progressed, get a hold of all the IPCC reports, then read through and pay attention to what has changed from report to report. Write the changes down and then look at the references they give. Look up the references and see what measurements they made to come up with the conclusions. Maybe then you can come to a decision on whether the truths are from observable science. And yes, you are permitted to do this and still disagree with the IPCC, but you need to understand why they say what they are saying.

    • let's throw them out ! says:

      01:35pm | 25/02/11

      Instead of talking amongst ourselves.
      Talk to Juliar directly.
      I rang her offices at parliament house. 
      When I asked why she lied I was hung up on.
      02 6277 7700
      My tax dollars at work obviously.

    • Rick says:

      02:40pm | 25/02/11

      I suppose you were constantly ringing Jack boot Johnny then

    • money go round says:

      01:38pm | 25/02/11

      “The single biggest use of money from the money raised from pricing carbon will be to assist households with cost of living,” she said.

      So why do we need it then Juliar?

      We’re being sold a bucket of shit. 
      And just think of all those extra public servants that will be needed to administer this?

    • Richard the Lionheart says:

      01:49pm | 25/02/11

      Every politician since Ceasar Augustus has wanted to tax the (poluted?) air we breathe. Well done Jooliar. Thanks for ruining a fine nation. I can afford to live elsewhere but I am going to stay and fight this, like your stupid NBN network monopoly home connection (tax), inept Mining Tax, unfair Ciggy Tax (up 28%) Flood tax, Boat people tax waste, Education Revolution waste tax( where are those computers?), Pink Bats waste tax,  et al. Oh to feel relaxed and comfortable again.

    • Mother Rose says:

      02:52pm | 25/02/11

      Just take a bex and lie down dear.
      The best is yet to come.

    • Seth Brundle says:

      01:52pm | 25/02/11

      The most difficult part of justifying this tax is that even if you DO believe that global warming is 100% man made (and hard as it is to believe, there are some people out there who still do), you still can’t say that the tax is going to have any effect on climate change for the simple fact that Australia is responsible for so little emissions.  Even if we elimate 100% of our emissions, that’s 1.28% of the global total!!  That is why any discussion about our emissions is about PER CAPITA, rather than actual total emissions.
      Even AGW believers can’t justify this tax.

    • jj says:

      01:52pm | 25/02/11

      Truly disgusting. 
      Their great hope is to ram this beast in while they can.

      They will be in the enviable position of balancing the budget in 2013 with the aid of a tax grab and money to spare to pay off their constituents for what will be the coming election.

      Fleecing more money from the pockets of the Australian people whilst still claiming to be the party of the worker.  All able to packaged in a nice moral wrapper of a supposed crusade to save the world from a problem that does not exist.

      They are banking on Australians forgetting their annoyance at the imposition and impertinence in a couple of years time….and lets face it; sadly this has been a successful tactic for labor governments for quite some time now.

      Has there ever been a government as bad as this before?

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      01:52pm | 25/02/11

      JooLIAR and her friends have just declared war on the ALP’s beloved ‘working families’ Just wait till we have gridlock in our streets from all the protest marches.

    • WayneT says:

      01:56pm | 25/02/11

      Wouldn’t it be cheaper to plant a shit load of trees to soak up the Carbon Dioxide.  Oh wait a minute, I’m not thinking like a politician.  Planting trees cost money, collecting taxes makes money…...... forget I mentioned it.

    • Simone says:

      02:53pm | 25/02/11

      How about some of the revenue raised by a carbon tax goes to planting trees?
      Oh wait, it will.
      Forget I mentioned it.

    • Catching up says:

      02:58pm | 25/02/11

      And uses the land that was cleared of trees in the first place for food.  Look at a weather map, we have only a small portion of land that is available to plant all those trees.

      Do you really believe if there was a simple solution it would not be adopted.

    • WayneT says:

      04:53pm | 25/02/11

      Actually No I don’t.  The simple solutions often take money instead of make money.  When will people get through their heads that Carbon Dioxide is not a pollutant no matter what the EPA in the USA say’s.  And Simone, how do you know some of the tax will go to planting trees?  They haven’t even brought out a plan, set a price, shown the cost to the average household yet knuckleheads are signing up to it.  When you got a mortgage did you sign up first then ask how much you would have to pay?  Wake up people.

    • Harquebus says:

      02:00pm | 25/02/11

      Politicians lie. They also don’t tell the whole story. Something has to make up for the shortfall in the GST which, was supposed to remove stamp duties, during the coming never ending recession. Peak oil mate, peak oil.

    • Greg says:

      02:04pm | 25/02/11

      That photo of a crowded podium with the caption, call it a crowded house, a Sting from the Senate, Queen or just Midnight Stabbing and not Who’re going to call? but to get rid of the ghosts Do you know who you’re voting for!

      The Greens may well hold sway in the Senate, just to the next Double Dissolution when they along with the likes of Oakeshott and half of Labor will be gone for a long long time

    • Rick says:

      02:37pm | 25/02/11

      dont hold your breath

    • mervyn ford says:

      02:10pm | 25/02/11

      Is Gillard’s nose a little longer today?

    • Hamish says:

      02:37pm | 25/02/11

      Hey lay off Jools all you guys. She’s not a liar. She said ‘there will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.’ Everyone knows she’s not leading the government, the backroom boys and Bobby Brown are clearly in charge now.

    • MargD says:

      02:55pm | 25/02/11

      Has anyone noticed that when Gillard opens her mouth, Bob Brown pops out ??? Just saying….

    • George says:

      02:56pm | 25/02/11

      Aaaah (shakes head). Have lost total respect for Julia, had very little for Tony anyway. His latest rants channel the Tea Party in their quality, and Julia seems to be upholding the fine 21st century ALP tradition of confusing word twisting & good intentions with bravery. Peter Costello, this is your fault. Had you led the Libs last August, we could have had something in between good intentions and global selfishness that would have achieved nothing environmentally speaking, but something that the ‘we’re not gonna take it anymore’ constituency may have accepted ie nothing ventured, nothing gained. Boils down to whether we believe the GW thesis really eh? If we all want short term prosperity and drive 7 seaters on cheap petrol on smoothly paved roads, something’s gotta give, so keep it to that shall we?

    • I wish!!! says:

      04:16pm | 25/02/11

      Short term prosperity, cheap petrol, smoothly paved roads???? You obviously live in a different Australia to the one I live in,. Petrol hasn’t been cheap in donkeys, the only smoothly paved roads I ever see are those going past the local councillors residence and prosperity would mean I have some money left over after paying all the bills and buying essentials each week.

    • Markster says:

      02:59pm | 25/02/11

      I don’t believe Joolya has broken her promise! From what I can gather, the companies are taxed on carbon,  the tax is redistributed back as compensation to cover the passed on costs of the tax.  When I went to school 1 + 1 = 2 and on that basis we are not really being taxed at all!  The big question now is why bother?  Now lessons of history tell us that it just won’t happen his way.  You wouldn’t do something like this if there wasn’t a quid in it.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!

    • David C says:

      03:13pm | 25/02/11

      please correct me if I have this wrong, I genuinely want to understand this. The effect of the carbon dioxide tax is to make fossil fuels more expensive. the power staions that use them will have to raise their prices to cover the cost increase which means we will all have to pay more for not only our own power but pretty well everything as it is hard to think of a product that doesnt use energy.
      the goal of this is to even the playing field in terms of alternate energy and encourge all to switch . 2 things stand out to me
      1) the cost base is permanently raised
      2) the switch will take a few years at least surely, a power station will not switch to solar/wind/gas whatever overnight so the consumer will be paying for quite a while
      If the end goal is to reduce emissions i am assuming thats a hell of a lot of power stations/ solar plants etc by 2020. Does that mean the government really wants us to cut power use? those cuts wont all come from the consumer they will have to come from industry,

    • BobM says:

      04:06pm | 25/02/11

      And meanwhile, we ship our coal over to China at a fraction of the cost of what we pay and China builds 2 coal burning power stations every week causing pollution on a monumental sacale - but nobody says ‘boo’ to them. They laugh at us for being so stupid.

    • Harquebus says:

      04:43pm | 25/02/11

      Does that mean the government really wants us to cut power use? Nope, they need a tax to supplement the GST.

    • Reg says:

      08:52pm | 27/02/11

      BobM, what sort of “boo” do you expect us to say to China?

      Just to remind you, the Japanese efforts to conquer the Pacific and adjacent territory was initiated by someone saying no to supplying them with fuel. At least the Chinese Power Stations promise to be more efficient than ours and judging from their high efficiency in most things, you can bet they will have plans to bring in controls over pollution before it kills off half their workers.

      @Harquebus. The government wants us to cut fossil fuel consumption and save on generation and distribution losses by the installation of energy generation and storage, closer to the point of consumption.

      The opportunities for manufacturing are gigantic and yet all we see here are the short-sighted right-wingers with insufficient imagination to see beyond tomorrow. Worse, they represent themselves as the all knowing business gurus of Australia and followers of the most short sighted Prime Minister Australia even suffered. John Winston Howard.

    • Paul C says:

      03:25pm | 25/02/11

      Now The Greens want a carbon tax on fuel - When will it stop ???  I can just see Bob Brown throwing a tantrum unless he gets what he wants and with Juliar so desperate to cling to power, he will probably get it.  It would be interesting to hear from the Independents at this stage - After all we can thank them for selecting our puppet prime minister.  Perhaps if they threatened to withdraw support, we would see a classic Labor Back-flip on the whole issue.

    • David C says:

      06:17pm | 25/02/11

      maybe a better way to do this would be to just put 2-3 cents levy on petrol, i mean the stuff changes in price that much from one day to the next who would notice. take that cash and just work to make alternatives cheaper, making fossil fuels more expensive is just wrong

    • Bruce says:

      08:26pm | 25/02/11

      Juliar is now Bob Browns hand puppet. When Juliar speaks, Browny smiles…just watch !

    • Tejas says:

      03:38pm | 25/02/11

      how were Abbott’s claims hysterical? This tax will make cost of living higher and the PM promised not to have one. Election promises means nothing to this govt

    • Jabos says:

      03:40pm | 25/02/11

      Honestly, anyone supporting this move by the government must be a bit thick between the ears. Manufacturing in Australia is declining as operations move overseas, the dollar is overpriced, inflation is on the way up, housing is increasingly unaffordable…the list goes on and all of these factors will be made worse by putting a price on carbon. Seriously, these industries create the very jobs that keep many people in this country employed, if it becomes less profitable they will move their operation elsewhere, taking the jobs with them. The one and only reason that we can even be debating such a ludicrous move is due to our rich economy. People have become complacent, taking our quality of life for granted, however the reality of the situation is that the very industries that this tax will affect are the industries that have given us the freedoms that we now enjoy. Our forefathers worked hard to provide us this, and now we have a government in control of the country whom I would not trust to run my household budget. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see once the damage is done.

    • Pete #205 says:

      04:27pm | 25/02/11

      We can’t really compete with manufacturing, that’s a given.  But as a country, we do have the smarts to create and innovate.  Our best and brightest have been forced overseas to get decent jobs because there is nothing here for them.  New tech industries can keep them here to create new technologies that can then be sold to other countries.  Even prototyping requires a miriad of manufacturing skills, which will mean new jobs for all types.  Do you realise that the WiFi you may be using now is based on algorithims developed by the CSIRO?  They are earning hundreds of millions in royalties and all they needed to come up with that was a brain, computer and knowing them types, a coffee machine.

      You can’t use the fact that the “old industries” have done so well for us as an excuse not to touch them.  Everything has a limited life span.  Surely it’s time to plan for a smooth transition?

      And for the record, I think the way the Government is trying to introduce this is a little shifty.

    • Bruce says:

      04:02pm | 26/02/11

      Jabos: If it were my business, and I was effected by the carbon tax, I would take my manufacturing, processing value added component of my business overseas where incentives were given to set up my business. I am not sure if I would want to reinvest in plant and equipment, particularly if only recently acquired where pay back may take many years. You can be pretty sure most industries are already looking at this option.

    • john says:

      03:41pm | 25/02/11

      Why won’t the ALP consider nuclear power.

    • Jabos says:

      03:42pm | 25/02/11

      Honestly, anyone supporting this move by the government must be a bit thick between the ears. Manufacturing in Australia is declining as operations move overseas, the dollar is overpriced, inflation is on the way up, housing is increasingly unaffordable…the list goes on and all of these factors will be made worse by putting a price on carbon. Seriously, these industries create the very jobs that keep many people in this country employed, if it becomes less profitable they will move their operation elsewhere, taking the jobs with them. The one and only reason that we can even be debating such a ludicrous move is due to our rich economy. People have become complacent, taking our quality of life for granted, however the reality of the situation is that the very industries that this tax will affect are the industries that have given us the freedoms that we now enjoy. Our forefathers worked hard to provide us this, and now we have a government in control of the country whom I would not trust to run my household budget. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see once the damage is done.

    • Terry says:

      05:54pm | 25/02/11

      Well siad.
      Pity that the masses don’t understand your logic.
      3 new taxes in 6 months; enuff said.

    • David says:

      03:53pm | 25/02/11

      The Greens will one day soon end up the same way the Democrats did extinct. The clowns that voted for these left wing socialist might one day also wake up to the fact that the environment is the last thing that interests them. The environment is only used as a front by the Greens take a few minutes to read there looney policies.

    • John Smith says:

      08:08pm | 25/02/11

      ou are right. Greens are a pack of Socialists after a bath of Acrylic paints.
      Then you get the Unionist who cant find the handle end of a spade.

    • BobM says:

      03:54pm | 25/02/11

      Looking at the picture you can see who is running the country - the Greens and 2 ‘independents’.  Vale, Australia.

    • Terry says:

      04:01pm | 25/02/11

      So JU-LIAR has gone and done it! Trying to demonstrate leadership she has decided to break a promise, barely 6 months after the election. Now she’s sounding shrill and repetitive, and there is no detail behind her statements. The committee surrounding her at the announcement was very telling; the Greens and the Independents! Not only did they put the Labor Party into power, but they now have demonstrated that they control the government. What a pity. That Australia should be controlled by maniacal Greens and really stupid independents who went against their own electorates. It’s almost starting to feel like we’d be better off with the unions controlling the government?
      I’m not a serious supporter of any party, but the liberals are looking like winners here, at least you know what they stand for - profits. Under their management, our economy was a boomer and we had surpluses and $30B savings. Now it’s all gone and this new tax will just increase the cost of living, destroy jobs and make Australian businesses uncompetitive in the World arena. JU-Liar got one tax through yesterday - did she have to get greedy and go for a second?

    • Pete #205 says:

      04:11pm | 25/02/11

      In my naive way, I think of it this way:  Those energy providers that can generate from alternate energy sources will be able to offer cheaper energy, thereby enticing consumers and manufacturers to switch to them (I don’t know how that works in the ACT where we have one provider).  Those energy companies still producing via fossil fuels will lose customers and will also look to invest in alternates to reduce their costs.  The snowball then means the investment goes into improving the alternates instead of just switching to them.

      Manufacturers using alternate energy sources can offer their goods at lower prices, again enticing more and more consumers/customers.  More and more manufacturers will do the same to compete, thereby driving up demand for alternates from the energy suppliers.  The cycle then repeats and then we all sing kumbaya.

      Costs may increase initially, but you can already choose to go 100% renewable already (although perversely that is more expensive now).

      Will it work like that?  Who knows?  It’s getting a little depressing watching the politicians, and Punchers, reactions.

    • Scarneck says:

      08:46pm | 25/02/11

      Yes Pete…imagine if you were one of the first to adapt? Countries that is.

    • harry says:

      03:51pm | 27/02/11

      “although perversely that is more expensive now”

      That’ll be because renewables cost 3 to 10 times as much as equivalent coal based energy.

      “Those energy companies still producing via fossil fuels will lose customers and will also look to invest in alternates to reduce their costs.”

      Australian electricity generators are in large majority owned by State Governments. Most of these have been run by Labor, who apparently believe that AGW is a great threat. But strangely the are unwilling to move to these renewable sources that you believe are cheaper.

      I’m beginning to suspect that some of your assumptions aren’t bearing up to well to reality.

      A more sensible appraisal is that renewables cost many times more than coal/gas fired power.
      Turning away from using our energy assets to a more expensive and unreliable renewable source will hurt our ability to manufacture, and reduce our standard of living. It makes even less sense when we are selling these same cheap energy sources to our competitors who have no plans for a similar tax.

      The only bit you have right is that we all get to sing Kumbaya, like a typical cargo cultist.

    • LC says:

      04:45pm | 25/02/11

      And you thought the cost of living was high enough…

    • Labor Ruined this Country says:

      04:56pm | 25/02/11

      What a bunch of lying scum. And have a look at that monkey on the far right of the photo. Can’t wait to drive past these clowns after the next election when their all standing in a Centrelink queue.

    • Jim says:

      05:30pm | 25/02/11

      Anyone hear Adam Bandt today? He has made it abundantly clear that the watermelons see this as a wealth redistribution scheme.

    • MarK says:

      05:52pm | 25/02/11

      Anybody else find it incredibly amusing that Gillard just announced a policy that will reorganise our life without any detail?

      How reckless is that. I mean you just don’t go about announcing stuff without thinking it through.

      I mean you wouldn’t do it on a tax on a major sector of the economy like the resources sector…......oh wait.

      Well you certainly wouldn’t do it on something as important as health…...ummmmmmmm just a sec.

      Dang it.

    • Against the Man says:

      08:34pm | 25/02/11

      Did Gilltard actually graduate from uni or had a recent IQ test? Seriously I’ve seen pre-school kids with more sense and organisational skills. But Australians have been screwed by the selfish one and they have learnt the very hard way that the ALP = Crap government! The one good thing that will come of this is that the ALP won’t see the Federal government side of things for at least 15 years. Thank you KRudd and Gilltard !!!!!!!!!!!!

    • thetrureal says:

      06:04pm | 25/02/11

      Want to talk about back flips: John Howard said many times “ I/we the federal Liberal party of Australia will not introduce a GST, I/we will never eliminate the import tax/tariffs and allow jobs to go offshore, I /we will never introduce levy’s. Strange how everyone forgets!

      GST is the worst of the worst tax that there is, you/we pay GST on every little thing even fees have GST on them!!!

      In theory and that is the key word “theory” a carbon tax could force energy generators and providers to use non polluting sources to generate energy, but in reality the extra tax will just be passed on to us with no impact on pollution! What is needed is full funding and research into fusion generating unlimited energy sources but with that in operation some of the ruling classes will lose the monopoly on energy control and might have to work for their money instead of stealing it from us.

    • Matt says:

      09:35am | 26/02/11

      John Howard did say that he wouldn’t implement a GST, but then in his run for re-election he campaigned that he WOULD bring one in. 

      He was elected and so had a mandate to implement one - so get your facts straight.

      Gillard campaigned on no Carbon Tax - so has absolutely no mandate to bring one in.

    • Holly says:

      07:10pm | 25/02/11

      Last word from Holly.
      Headline in the Australian (as I recall on front page) August 2oth 2010.  That’s right the day before the election.
      “Julia Gillard’s Carbon Price Promise” by Paul Kelly and Dennis Shanahan

      Opening sentence - “Julia Gillard says she is prepared to legislate a carbon price in the next term.”
      “It will be part of a bold series of reforms that include school funding, education and health”.

      Which part of this did the coalition commenters above fail to understand.

    • John Smith says:

      08:03pm | 25/02/11

      I eat carbon, exhale CO2. Wlill I be priced on inputs as well as the output?

    • Alex says:

      09:03pm | 25/02/11

      Melbourne has just had an incredibly cool summer - any cooler and we wouldn’t have a summer at all. Can we be exempted from the carbon tax please?

    • Gregg says:

      02:40am | 26/02/11

      No way Alex, all that extra energy likely used for heating and you’ll have to be taxed on it.
      And Juliar wants your money for something

    • Ray says:

      10:27pm | 25/02/11

      The real Julia has surfaced: breaking an election promise; forming a climate committee of yes-men; not ascertaining the science, given that the climate science is not settled;  accepting global warming dogma; kowtowing to the Greens; proposing action without scientific or economic justification; encouraging high-cost renewable energy development; substantially raising electricity prices, thereby raising the price of everything, and lowering the standard of living.

    • David says:

      11:20pm | 25/02/11

      Like they say green is the new red with there pin up boy being Josep Stalin as the policies go hand in hand.

    • Paul Rossetto says:

      11:20pm | 25/02/11

      I am 50 years of age and have been interested in politics all my life so therefore I can honestly say I have never seen a more public and blatant lie as I saw come out of the mouth of Julia Gillard re: the carbon price/tax. But then I wouldn’t expect anything better from a sworn atheist. She has no conscience to answer to, no moral compass to guide her decisions, no spiritual life partner for a husband that would ask her the question, our spouses are our best judges and juries, no family or children to ground her to life’s real issues and soon she will have no job before we have no country.

    • Not Amused says:

      02:47pm | 26/02/11

      With respect Paul, organised religion does not have a monopoly on morality & ethics. To believe in that lie is to be complicit in one of the greatest tragedies of human history; much evil has been committed because of it.

    • Reg says:

      11:35am | 27/02/11

      @Paul Rossetto. “But then I wouldn’t expect anything better from a sworn atheist.”

      (An associated topic drawn from above.)

      A sample text from Ken Lignar for teaching the morality of intelligent design and the conclusions it proposes for ethical outcomes.

      “The theory of intelligent design states that an omnipotent being created the universe and everything in it for reasons we cannot and, are not meant to comprehend.

      There is no quantifiable evidence to support this theory, there are no hypothesis that can be proven or disproven using this theory, and it offers no predictive ability for any past, present or future events.

      OK, now let’s move on to the theory of evolution.”

    • Aasq says:

      10:33pm | 27/02/11

      So given that he’s married and a Catholic, Paul, you must feel worse about Tony Abbott’s lies. Commiserations.

      The Prime Minister does have a family, by the way. And there is no such thing as a “sworn” atheist. Christians “swear” on the Bible.

    • Wa says:

      11:27pm | 25/02/11

      Anyone who thinks the polluters will stop polluting under this are delusional. All they will do is forward the cost onto consumers.

      It’s just a desperate government trying to raise revenue and make us feel better about us doing something. Wake up people!
      Maybe it’s to help pay for a new 747 for Kevin Rudd? wink

    • Graham says:

      09:02am | 26/02/11

      May “find its mark with some voters”. hahahahah, just about choked on my CO2.
      Yes, just a few. This is the end of them, Thank God!

    • Matt says:

      09:30am | 26/02/11

      It is embarrassing reading the political satire and commentary of Australian journalists these days, as it is so blindingly obvious and disgusting how biased they are.  This is a perfect example.

      Julie Gillard blatantly lies to the Australian people in order to get elected, and Tony Abbott calls her a liar because of it.

      Who does the media go after?  Tony Abbott!  Disgusting.

      Who is worse, the liar or the person that calls them a liar?  Pretty obvious in my book.  Start doing your jobs properly and go after the person that lied and deceived the Australian people to get in to office.

      Climate change and a carbon tax are not the issues here.  It is the fact that our PM lied to all of us, and thinks so little of all Australians, that she thinks we are just going to stand by and accept it.

    • Daniel says:

      10:13am | 26/02/11

      This ETS or Carbon Tax is something that should have been in place a decade ago.Noone had the political will especially Howard.

    • DJ says:

      08:05pm | 26/02/11

      A Tax means nothing. What matter is a change in the lifestyle paradigm that we hold. We just can’t put a useless tax in place without changing the way we live and how we use things. Pollution doesn’t end with a tax, nor does a wasteful single-use lifestyle. We have to move past a ‘tax’ to more logical thinking and stop putting our heads in the sand. Just paying a tax to ease your conscience won’t do anything for the environment. It is just another means to fleece you of your already decreasing pay packet. It has nothing to do with the left/right paradigm, as they won’t have a choice about it, just like us. This comes from the PTB as one of the means of destoying our wealth and centralising it in their hands, making us so poor we can’t fight back.

    • shiraz says:

      09:28am | 27/02/11

      Agreed, a tax wont solve our pollution problems, just make the poor poorer and cause more friction in our society. Most people will just become more desperate to survive day to day, climate change will hardly be first on their minds.
      Our governments are failures on the environment, as much as i personally want gillard dumped this would achieve little on this matter as the exploitative corporate mindset has infiltrated every layer of our society.

    • harry says:

      03:17pm | 27/02/11

      “Not for her the glacial pace, the bloated timelines, and reams of ponderous reports favoured by Kevin Rudd.”

      Yeah, that approach worked a treat with the BER. I particularly liked the 18sq metre $650,000 tuck shop that couldn’t fit a fridge in it. Or the gym that replaced a previous gym, except that it was too short for them to hold their normal basketball court ... genius!

      Yup, stuff the planning, full speed ahead.

      Now could somebody tell us how much this “initiative” will alter global temperatures?
      Or perhaps how a PM who promises one thing, then does the opposite provides “certainty”?

      And why the state government controlled power generators that dominate the Australia electricity market need a tax to encourage them to shift to renewables? I thought they already believed in global warming?

      Or maybe they believe in it just like Kevin, who has decided to monitor the massive sea-level rises predicted this century from his new beach house.

    • Cunegonde says:

      07:12am | 28/02/11

      Good Lord, is this a new comedy team playing “City Of Hope”: I find it totaly offensive these individuals not solitarily elected, to be tayloring my life.Where is loyalty to the country and its people?Looks more like american oscar night rather than responsible government.And what of planted Julia used by selfimportant socialists and academics as motivational weapons to rally public support,by dishonesty and lies.
      Unfortunately support of stupid politically unbias and imature media, what can one expect but disaster.

    • hamster says:

      10:29am | 28/02/11

      Some facts:
      A: Ju-Liar lied. Yet again.
      B. Aus only contributes 1.5% to global C02 production.
      D. This ‘carbon tax’ will be yet another impost on the public, and will likely damage the economy.
      E. Carbon Dioxide is a naturally occuring substance. There is NO scientific link between human activity and global warming - despite the hysteria of the self appointed ‘experts’ such as Mr Gore.

    • Craig says:

      04:05pm | 28/02/11

      picture says it all. what a joke. jobs will simply go offeshore as we increase the carbon emissions of a developing country as they produce with less cost because the dont have a ETS. Common sennse really, Unless its global its not going to make any difference at all.

    • Brett H says:

      06:11pm | 28/02/11

      Like lobsters in a pot, apparently no-one is noticing that electricity and petrol prices have gone up anyway. Regardless of what the dinosaurs think about climate change, electricity generation and petrol isn’t going to get miraculously cheaper under Tony.

      Labor were dumb to campaign on the cost of living when they were up against Howard, but Tony appears to be repeating that mistake. The problem is what happens when he wins, repeals the tax, but prices keep going up as they will.

      Howard almost lost over the GST (with less than 50% of the popular vote), and Julia could well lose over this. Guaranteed however is that Labor will take a leaf out of the Howard copybook and do some carefully targeted tax funded bribes to the middle and lower income earners.

      The tricky thing for Tony is that it’s hard standing between people and a pot of money, but it’s worse when you get price rises and no compensation. Tony is campaigning on a scorched earth policy, with no consideration given to what he would actually do if he got in..

    • Frank of Brizzie says:

      08:51am | 01/03/11

      On paper we might reduce carbon emissions by 0.001% or something near it. By paying this TAX on everything the world still will be getting warmer, bugger! Climate change is real!

    • Mark says:

      12:02pm | 01/03/11

      Australians were really asleep at the wheel when they voted Rudd in….to double down and end up with Gillard in power is just insane….and hopefully most fair-minded people will realise that nothing about Labor has ever changed….tax and spend, re-distribute wealth from the middle-upper earners to lower earners and destitute green causes….no ability to execute policy - an utterly failed govt lacking any credibility on anything!

      But a question for all the smarty pants, green supporters out there…...follow this….if you put a tax on carbon….and business passes that tax through to consumers…..and consumers are to some great extent compensated for the price rise….how the hell have you disincentivised carbon usage? You’ve just raised prices and enabled business to pass to consumers who are compensated for the loss. The catch will be as follows…consumers will not be compensated properly….some low earners will get looked after (and to Labor you’re a high earner if you take more than $60k pa) and that’s it…..business won’t be forced to greatly adapt and the benefits to carbon reduction will be superifical and completely irrelevant in the global context…..

      This govt has blown billions on crappy green programs, subsidies for inefficient industries (motor vehicles), badly executed all its ideas…..and now hasn’t got the guts to face the electorate on a major issue….I hope the public finally realises that as much as they tired of Howard, the flirt with Labor and now the Greens is an unmitigated disaster for this country…..

      God help…...bring on an election….

    • Tiger says:

      01:40pm | 01/03/11

      Another subversive attempt at imposing socialism. Robin Hood rides again! What exactly is the point of imposing a carbon tax and then redistributing it to a certain sector - how will that help to discourage using the pollutants? Aha! The point of this is exactly the same as the mining tax and the flood tax. REDISTRIBUTION. How many levels of administration (read: jobs for the boys) will be needed to cope with all this extra cash inflow? And exactly How Much will be available to be Redistributed? Anyone?

    • Stephen says:

      01:45pm | 01/03/11

      @ Rosie 06:14
      Actually Rosie, Stephen Smith is a Politician that I would vote for.  He appears an erudite and principled character, so sadly out of place amongst those who would purport to be his peers.  Unfortunately his very character precludes him as a potential leader of the Labor Party,  the prerequisites for that position seem to be a demonstrated contempt for the Australian people and the ability to prostitute your principals to form government

    • Oliver says:

      04:36pm | 01/03/11

      This needs to go to vote full stop.If the vote is good I’ll support it but not at the whim of a trumped up coalitian of sorts and certainly not on the track record already displayed by this government.power to the people in a democracy.But I’m guessing it;ll never happen.

    • cheap oem software says:

      01:42pm | 08/02/12

      W5to5R Excellent! Got a real pleasure..!!

    • MaraBoyer says:

      12:11pm | 10/02/12

      Every one remembers that life is very expensive, nevertheless people need money for different things and not every man earns enough money. Thus to get fast business loans and bank loan would be good solution.

 

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