In a face-off between a simple argument and a complex one, the former usually wins hands down. Over the last year and a half, this is where Tony Abbott has had the edge over Julia Gillard.

Cartoon: Peter Nicholson

True, Opposition leaders can do this more readily because their chief task is criticism.

Delivering programs is inherently more complex. For governments, the normal budget jiggery-pokery notwithstanding, the sums must add up.

Oppositions can play fast and loose because they deal in hypotheticals and face less scrutiny.

Thus, complaints of a $10.6 billion black hole in Mr Abbott’s election costings and another $5 billion forfeited in spending cuts being blocked by the Opposition in the Senate, go mostly over voters’ heads.

When Mr Abbott was asked yesterday on Radio National if he shared the Government’s 2012/13 surplus timeline, he said: “Sure, we’ve got to get the budget back into surplus. We should do it as quickly as possible, but let’s not let these guys off the hook for their massive waste and incompetence.”

Was that yes or no? Who knows?

But this is important because if he is committed to the surplus by then, he has some explaining to do - particularly after blocking savings measures the Government is relying on to get there.

Tony Abbott’s facility for gliding above the annoying detail, however, is merely one side of the Government’s problem. The other is its own tendency to manufacture confusion.

Think border protection; carbon tax; mining tax; the republic; and gay marriage, to name a few.

Precisely where does the ALP stand on these things and why?

In just over a week from now, that problem will worsen when Wayne Swan unveils his fourth Budget. All the signs point to a document which in political terms, will wind the complexity dial around to eleven.

Labor is bracing for another hit in the polls - presumably leading to a primary vote with a ``2’’ in front of it. At best Government insiders are predicting zero post-Budget bounce.

Such is Labor’s dilemma. The economy’s ebullience through the dark days of the GFC was in no small part down to the Government’s insightful approach to the crisis in late 2008.

But by election time, it got nothing for it.

Voters did not thank Labor for a storm that never hit. In Canberra, they call this the “counter-factual” problem: People won’t credit you with saving their jobs because they never went through the hardship of losing them.

And even if they bought the dire storm warnings at the start of the GFC, the cash hand-outs, free pink batts, new school buildings and generous small business tax concessions, ensured no lasting impression from a recession that never was. Besides, at that stage the Government enjoyed stratospheric support.

Scroll forward to the present day and the reverse is true. Now, voters are faced with the massive bill for those freebies and it is being called in by a deeply unpopular minority government.

Worse, it is peddling a less palatable message now that despite rising cost-of-living pressures, it’s time to cut programs and hit you with some new taxes. To paraphrase Frank Zappa, that’s about as welcome as an ice-pick in the forehead.

Selling this would be a tough ask for any government, but for one as low on authority, as bereft of goodwill, and as communicationally challenged as this one, it is close to a deal-breaker.

There are other contradictions too. To get to that 2012/13 surplus, the Commonwealth balance sheet must first go further into the red. Que? Some reports suggest a deficit as high as $50 billion - and this while spending is actually being cut.

If that’s not complex enough, the Government wants voters to understand that there is so much private capital coming down the pipeline for Resources Boom Mk II, that they should take a haircut to make room. People already battling with soaring food, petrol, and electricity prices, will be asked to make further sacrifices for a boom the Government says, won’t deliver as much revenue as the last one despite being even bigger. Batten down the hatches, the good times are coming! Little wonder voters are confused.

And then of course, there’s the new taxes. First cab off the rank is the flood levy. A narrow majority supported the 12-month tax in the lee of the summer disasters despite Opposition mouth-frothing, but it will just be another cost pressure when it finally begins on July 1, despite its mildness.

And next year, subject to the enormous hurdle of actually getting them through parliament, there will be both a new carbon tax and new minerals resources rent tax. Neither is popular. Neither has been properly explained.

The secret to Tony Abbott’s effectiveness has been his reduction of complex public policy problems to mere slogans mostly playing to prejudice, but also suggestive of his values: Stop the boats, end the waste, repay the debt.

The Government does not have the luxury of such crude simplicity or of hypothetical savings and unfunded promises. But it needs to get its story straight or it will enjoy these luxuries soon.

236 comments

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    • mahhrat says:

      06:11am | 30/04/11

      Yes, good article. Even if one can successfully argue that the ALP has done great things, the fact remains that the public is unaware of them.

    • Enrico says:

      11:24am | 30/04/11

      The ALP has “done great things.”  When? In your deepest sleep, maybe.  Certainly not during the reign of this thoroughly incompetent Rudd/Gillard circus.  This is easily the most embarrassing, wasteful and inept Government in this Country’s history.  Lie after lie, broken promise after broken promise, spin after spin.  Even the greatest of Labor sycophants would concede this if they had a grip on reality.

    • Tom says:

      11:40am | 30/04/11

      No-one believes them because the ALP is addicted to lying.

    • Chris L says:

      12:44pm | 30/04/11

      Enrico just proved Mahhrat’s point grin

    • Dee says:

      12:53pm | 30/04/11

      Enrico they all lie and if you believe that the Liberal’s don’t tell lies you must have your head in the clouds. Every single party in Australia lies. The only difference is most people know it except the odd liberal and labor devotee. What has the liberal party done since in opposition? They carry on like spoilt kids who don’t get their way.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      01:14pm | 30/04/11

      The funny thing is not Kenny’s pro ALP article, is that he almost admits Labor’s consistent policy failures, yet somehow manages to credit them for successfully negotiating the GFC. clearly a deeply flawed position… How did they manage to do one thing right? Answer is, they didn’t of course, ey farmed that up too, and now comes the bill.

    • Adam says:

      02:59pm | 30/04/11

      @ mahhrat - The problem is for every “great thing” the ALP has done, there has also been three or four even greater and more spectacular failures. The fact is the public are very aware of this.

      @ Dee - “they all lie and if you believe that the Liberal’s don’t tell lies you must have your head in the clouds”. That sort of comment is usually indicative of the last vestige of an argument from a rusted on ALP supporter. It basically acknowledges the ALP is a lying failure, but then seeks to justify irrationally supporting them despite such lies and failues by saying the other side is just as bad. Too bad history tells a different story.

    • Dee says:

      03:58pm | 30/04/11

      Adam you must be so upset that even with the primary vote the Liberal party lost out to the incompetent Labor party. When it comes to voting for either the Liberal party of Labor party I would rather cop the fine for not voting.

    • Adam says:

      05:36pm | 30/04/11

      @ Dee - “Adam you must be so upset that even with the primary vote the Liberal party lost out to the incompetent Labor party.”

      Not really. I’m aware of the limitations of our democracy, and while I believe it could be improved, I acknowledge that it is better than the other styles of Govt currently in practice around the world.

      “When it comes to voting for either the Liberal party of Labor party I would rather cop the fine for not voting”.

      What a cop out. You’re too indecisive and ill informed to even vote for a side. You failed to stand up and be counted when it mattered, so now your opinion on such matters is relegated to irrelevance until the next election. Hopefully you make your voice heard next time by voting, rather than sitting on the sidelines, letting others make the decision for you, then complaining about the outcome.

    • Edward James says:

      04:51am | 02/05/11

      The problem with political parties is their members are obviously willing to keep supporting with pre selections their party members who mishandle the truth carelessly and turn away from often published corruption allegations. Often because fellow party members are part of the on going problems with local councils Have a look here   http://bit.ly/EJ_PNewsAds    at information put right under the noses of politicians John Robertson and John Hatzistergos. in double page ads run in local Central Coast newspapers . The big national problem with elected reps is the party members are willing to support very ordinary work product from politicians who behaved before the election like they wanted to exercise their influence in the best interest of their constituents! Edward James

    • Flim Flam says:

      06:13am | 30/04/11

      Foot in mouth disease willckaim more victims yet. It’s tragic because it doesn’t have tone this way.

    • John A Neve says:

      06:25am | 30/04/11

      Mark’s article goes a long way to explaining our problem. Which is a basically two party system, with little to chose between them. Labor no longer represents the workers and the Liberal coalition certainly does not represent small business.

      Any new political party that shows signs of making ground, is quickly sat on by both the major players, in fact it is one of the few times they hold hands.
      Add to this an electorate, that has over the years become polarised and you have the very reason this country is going nowhere fast.

    • chungo mung says:

      10:09am | 30/04/11

      Spot on. Not enough choice, and a fear the electorate has of more than one party coming together ideologically to forge a middle path. With more parties gaining strength and numbers, the possible paths of the nation open up. But we as the people need to get past blind partisan faith and support that usually shows itself as total hatred for the ‘other’ party.

    • TimB says:

      10:41am | 30/04/11

      John in which way do the Liberals not represent small business?

    • Tom says:

      11:36am | 30/04/11

      @Chungo Bungo and John Neve, a whory pair of Labor drones out there spivving to the punters. Gawd, I love the way Labor desperates always squeal “both sides are as bad as each-other” when their darling Labor incompetents are being exposed.

      You are both worthy Hawker Britton stooges. Trouble is no-one believes anything you say because you are Labor.

      ... No, they are not the same.

    • John A Neve says:

      12:18pm | 30/04/11

      Tom,

      I thank you, you have just endorsed my point.

    • Cate P says:

      12:21pm | 30/04/11

      Howard had similar challenges in govt -  inherited a huge deficit, had to manage a border protection situation that began the same as the current one, introduced the GST, and held a republic referendum.  It all went ahead, was managed efficiently, things got done, and he was in govt for a long time on the basis of that success.  This govt couldn’t organise a chook raffle, THAT’S the real problem.  Both Rudd and Gillard are poor leaders who lead bad governments.  At least Abbott has the advantage of being part of a good govt and seeing close up how it is done.

    • Felipe says:

      12:23pm | 30/04/11

      John,  how can you explain how the country has changed from Howard leading compared to this Labor government in just 4 years.  How very remarkable that everything is failing from the exceptional mining boom to our cost of living.  Gillard and Swan are so incompetent, they have thrashed our belief that our government is there to take care of the country.  They have absurd ideas that they continuously flog even though we know it’s not gonna happen because they themselves cannot sell them, like the East Timor solution and the biggest of them all the Carbon tax.  Why is Gillard and Swan trying to impose hardship on all of us.  This is why “this country is going nowhere fast”.

    • TimB says:

      12:45pm | 30/04/11

      What point John? How does Tom prove anything you have said?

      BTW I asked you a question regarding one of your “points”. Care to answer it?

    • Dee says:

      12:59pm | 30/04/11

      How true

    • Dee says:

      01:01pm | 30/04/11

      Tom are you paid by the liberal party to blog

    • chungo mung says:

      02:18pm | 30/04/11

      you are a deadset wally tom, i have never voted labour in my life, my view is exactly as i have stated it to be. it is a bit paranoid looking over your shoulder for the stooges and the sockpuppets and the trolls - perhaps you could try engaging with alternate views, inability to do this is precisely the problem with people having blind partisan faith coupled with arbitrary dislike of those opposed to their political outlooks.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      04:21pm | 30/04/11

      Labor hasn’t been the party of “working families” since the 60s. When Whitlam became their leader it became a party of latte sipping dilettantes. Chifley & Cutin wouldn’t even get preselection in the current Labor party. Labor pollies want to be rich at the expense of others

    • Tom says:

      08:16pm | 30/04/11

      Dee, No, I am not paid. I don’t particularly like the Libs but I loath Labor. My only reward is to expose their lies and to try to counter the sloganistic, sophistry of Labor. “whatever it takes” is their motto.

      When Labor gets caught with pedophiles, wife bashers, corruption, incompetence and murderers, their cheer squad says, “well both sides do it, we have not got a choice.” Yes, Australia does have a choice, flick the evil bastards (then flick Abbott if he doesn’t deliver).

    • Erick says:

      06:26am | 30/04/11

      It’s not the complexity of the issues that’s bringing the government down - it’s the very obvious lies told by Julia Gillard at the last election. No carbon tax, the promise to crack down on illegal immigration, and other policies were clearly falsehoods.

      Even if the Labor government could explain itself, nobody would believe it.

    • MarK says:

      10:59am | 30/04/11

      “Even if the Labor government could explain itself, nobody would believe it.”

      Exactly. People have stopped listening and even when they do it is with scepticism if not outright hostility.

      Labor is done as a party under Gillard. Swan and Rudd only exacerbate this problem.

      Time for a new start if they are to regain any ground.

    • Against the Man says:

      11:40am | 30/04/11

      Labor explain itself? You’re kidding right? They don’t know WTF they are doing 99% of the time, if they can’t explain it to themselves how are they going to explain it to others.

    • michael j says:

      12:42pm | 30/04/11

      @Erick-Too True i reckon the PM was lying about smoking dope at Uni just because she was hoping to steal back some of the supporters from the Greens party..
      And the fact she was Honest about about lying when put under pressure is the result of muddled mind syndrome from having to many policy changes over to short a time resulting in no policy at all ,,
      The next election will be differ-cult as there will be at least 80 choices on the big white paper unlike the last one with 59,,i like to fill them all out,makes the muddcrabers feel better if they get a couple of votes,,

    • Adam says:

      12:55pm | 30/04/11

      @ Erick - So true! Even when the LNP wheels out their simple statements (stop the boats, stop the waste, get out of debt, etc) they sound believable and the LNP has a history of doing exactly that. The don’t need to give a complex argument because they deliver on the simple one.

      By contrast, the ALP wheels out their simple statements (no carbon tax under this Govt, tough on borders, education revolution, economic conservatives, etc) and they now lack credibility because the ALP has a history of failing to deliver on these simple statements. The ALP then develops longwinded complex arguments in an attempt to explain away their own failures and obfuscate voters.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:31am | 30/04/11

      Funny. I wonder if the ALP trolls are gonna call Mark Kenny names and dismiss his article. Simply because I said some of his points before and got no debate just the usual BS.

      The reason Gilltard is too dumb to be anything more than a lamp post is that she is her and the ALP’s worst enemy.

      Lets looks:
      1) Back stabbing Rudd, not really a smart thing to do to get to the top, you get an instant legacy of shame.
      2) No game plan. Zero policy success. No folks this is seriously a leader who thinks she is doing a great job. Lack of insight and intelligence is a dangerous combo.
      3) Making enemies on a daily basis - from her own union backers to Israel to big business and so on. Not the way to get on top.
      4) The budget, yes waste, waste, waste now slash, slash, slash - what is that all about? No seriously could someone tell me.

      I couldn’t be happier at how this government is doing. It is so much fun watching them screw over Australians and it is so comfortable to sit down on the sofa and systematically dismantle their existence.

      Ahhhh…..the ALP the political party that represents laziness, stupidity and selfishness. Oh Gilltard adds that pinch of immorality that spices things up for the recipe for disaster.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      10:04am | 30/04/11

      @ ATM “The budget, yes waste, waste, waste now slash, slash, slash - what is that all about? No seriously could someone tell me”

      It would be a waste of time explaining anything to you ATM - you only listen to what you want to hear, when anyone tries, you give the usual bile response.

    • Against the Man says:

      11:31am | 30/04/11

      Martin, that doesn’t answer my question. I’ve been asking straight forward questions here for a while but never got any answers. You a great example. This is a bad government with a terrible PM. You want to prove me wrong go ahead. Like I said if this government is so great we would have more positive articles about their achievements and I would get more straight forward answers and their poll numbers would be through the roof, right?

      Sadly you and your kind are the ones that only want to hear what you want to hear.

      Any comments on the latest NBN corruption scandal?

    • Chris L says:

      12:52pm | 30/04/11

      “I couldn’t be happier at how this government is doing. It is so much fun watching them screw over Australians” - So you’re motivation is not to advocate a better government but to simply see your side win. Don’t worry ATM, you’re certainly not alone in being loyal to a fault. Not on this site.

    • Against the Man says:

      01:40pm | 30/04/11

      Chris some people only learn the hard way. Hopefully people will think twice next time they vote for whichever party.

      Now wouldn’t you expect a loyal Gillard to not back stab her boss, not break a carbon tax election promise and do her best for ALL Australians. Maybe you need to re-direct your displeasure her way.

      But fair enough, I will admit that I could have phrased it better.

    • Adam says:

      03:10pm | 30/04/11

      @ ATM - I tend to agree with your comment about people learning the hard way. Giving labor a few terms in office is great for the liberal party. It helps all the new voters realise how bad the ALP/Greens are and usually returns the liberal party to office for the best part of a decade with a healthy majority. Until of course the newest gen Z comes along and needs a reminder again raspberry

    • Chris L says:

      04:20pm | 30/04/11

      @ATM - Indeed I am dissapointed in the current government over changing their stance so often and not following through on stated plans simply because of polls.

      I don’t really care about the change in leadership, except that this change was no improvement. We vote for parties and they get to choose their leaders.

      There remain, however, some things the Labor party historically provide that the Coalition tends to fail at. Infrastructure being a big one. Sure the Coalition will build a railroad or two, but it’s the Labor party that built the Snowy Mountains Scheme, the school halls and, hopefully, a National Broadband Network.

      Also, not currently but in the past, their policies have tended toward a more compassionate outlook. In this regard I feel the current government has failed my own expectations in that they continue to use refugees as a political tool the way the Coalition did, and that is very dissapointing for me. (I have no personal stake in our country accepting refugees, I just think a wealthy nation such as ours can afford to be more welcoming and compassionate.)

      The only other big failing I see in the current government is the proposed Internet Censorship. This is a brewing threat to democracy and freedom that I will never support, and thus I shall not be voting Labor as long as this looming menace remains.

      PS. Thank you for being gracious in your reply.

    • Adam says:

      05:59pm | 30/04/11

      @ Chris L - I tend to agree with the sentiments of you comment, however, I think we need to be careful to not assume spending all the money in the bank plus more somehow correlates with responsible infrastructure investment. It is possible to remain in surplus and invest in infrastructure responsibly, although Mr Swan seems to think otherwise. He seems to think that having no money in the bank means you spent the right amount on infrastructure, which is utter nonsense and a poor measure by any standard.

    • Andrew says:

      02:41am | 01/05/11

      @Adam Thanks so much for this howler.

      “Giving labor a few terms in office is great for the liberal party.”

      How magnanimous and considerate of them to do so. Such benevolent losers.

      p.s. Labor has formed Government for around 16 of the last 28 years.

    • persephone says:

      08:11am | 01/05/11

      Adam

      is it? Has this ever been achieved?

      And if it’s possible, why didn’t the past government do it?

      Private businesses go into debt to pay for infrastructure improvements - it’s good business planning. They call this ‘investment’.

      Households do this too. Instead of renting for decades, whilst saving up money for a house, they prefer to take out something called a ‘mortgage’ and buy the house upfront.

      It’s regarded as a good investment decision and saves them money in the long term.

      In the same way, governments borrow money to fund big ticket infrastructure items which are necessary for society as a whole.

    • An actual atm says:

      10:04am | 01/05/11

      I agree with you atm an opposition blocking and wrecking the constructive policies of Labor is the real problem.
      Meaningless slogans like stop the XXXX will not benefit the nation. Consideration of policy and constructive input are what’s required.

    • Adam says:

      12:19pm | 01/05/11

      @ Andrew - Always happy to give someone a laugh smile My comment was more tongue and cheek than anything else. I’ll happily concede the opposite may be true from your perspective. But as for your comment about “Labor has formed Government for around 16 of the last 28 years”. Give me a break. Your comment just shows you’ve picked a convenient length of time to support some nonexistent point you are trying to make. I could pick a timeframe convenient to me and show the opposite.

      @ Pers - So does that mean when labor gets back into surplus they are no longer responsibly investing in infrastructure? Like I said, being broke, or in debt, doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve responsibly invested in infrastructure. You might have just wasted your money on junk and bad investments, racking up huge debts along the way.

      To use your example of a business or household. Just because a business or person has no money or is carrying big debts, doesn’t necessarily mean that business or person has invested their money (or borrowed money) wisely. As such, their lack of money is poor measure of determining if they have made an appropriate and responsible amount of infrastructure investment.

    • persephone says:

      12:55pm | 01/05/11

      Just as well, then, Adam, that this government has made wise decisions on infrastructure spending, which will have long term benefits for the country as a whole.

    • Adam says:

      02:53pm | 01/05/11

      @ Pers - “Just as well, then, Adam, that this government has made wise decisions on infrastructure spending, which will have long term benefits for the country as a whole”.

      Lol. Come on pers. You’re trying to draw me off on a tangent and unless you’ve just come back from the future you have no way of knowing that.

      My original point still stands; having no money in the bank, or being in debt, does not necessarily correlate with responsible investment in infrastructure.

    • persephone says:

      07:34am | 30/04/11

      Except that none of the taxes youi’re talking about will have much (if any) impact on struggling families.

      The flood levy is, as you say, mild, and will only impact on high income families.

      For most of these, it’ll be the price of a cup of coffee.

      The carbon price will come with compensation, which will help struggling families deal with the minor price rises and give them some cash left over.

      In fact, in most cases, struggling families will be better off under the carbon price.

      And mining taxes will only impact on mining companies once these are earning bigger than usual profits.

      Yes, this may have some impact on share prices (although the refunding of royalties will help the profitability of some mines, especially in the start up phase) but again, it will be minimal, and will only impact on a very few (struggling families don’t tend to have big share holdings).

    • Sony B Goode says:

      09:50am | 30/04/11

      Seems to be part of Labor’s relentless drive to convert “high income” families into low income families.  Prosperity destruction seems to be the only thing Marxists get their jollies over….

      I will note Rio has now come out against the self crucifixion of a plant food tax…

    • Sherlock says:

      10:36am | 30/04/11

      Here’s the problem with the Labor Government.They seem to believe that you can rip tens of billions of dollars a year out of the economy in the form of new taxes and nobody pays for it.. That the companies that will pay for it will just absorb the added cost on not pass it onto the the public who is always the end consumer. It’s simply a totally ridiculous argument to put forward.

      If anybody truly believes that they will be fully compensated for the cost of the carbon tax then I have a nice bridge in Sydney and a block of flats in Tasmania you might be interested in.

      I read the above and I wonder what sort of opinion the writer has of the average voter when they write such total and complete drivel. It’s so condescending that it’s insulting to all Australians.

    • Anthony of WA says:

      10:43am | 30/04/11

      Persephone, give it up, I remeber you defending Rudd before he got dumped, you went very silent after that. You are again defending a very lost cause. You obvoiusly do not have any understanding of how a capitilist economy operates. Costs get past on and consumers end up paying, in this case more for everthing for zero benefit to the environment. If you can answer one question, by how much will the carbon tax reduce world temperature? Very simple, just give an answer as a degree C.

    • TimB says:

      10:46am | 30/04/11

      Persephone I’m going to ask you again: how exactly is it you’re so confident about the mnimal impact of the carbon tax? The government STILL hasn’t released any detail.

      By it’s very nature it’s (claimed)  intended effect, the tax *must* impact strggling families. Otherwise the whole excersise is pointless.

    • gytr says:

      10:55am | 30/04/11

      I have to ask… Define for me what you consider to be high income families please.

    • Phil says:

      11:29am | 30/04/11

      Typical class envy there Perse.
      Why attack high income whatever that means. Many so called high income persons already pay massive personal taxes, why have them cough up for in many cases lazy individuals. I am aware some cannot help themselves and that is what social security is for. Not a lifestyle choice.
      I for one would be happy with a user pays principal, be that carbon tax, public transport, education health etc. That way I am not paying for public transport that I rarely if ever use. But I will pay a price for having cars to drive, a boat for pleasure, health costs etc etc. I already pay for private education, and this bunch of no hopers want those who sacrifice to get ahead in life to pay out another $ 10000 a year for Flood Tax, Carbon Tax and no doubt a lot more. After all the Flood Tax is one which only all Queenslanders should pay only after all they elected the weather woman and her crowd of misfits and it was these d-ckheads as well as their mates before them runing the state that didnt take out insurance for natural disasters. Now all of them just about are exempt from paying a tax when they didnt pay the insurance in the first place in state taxes. Go figure the logic in that one.
      Doubt the feds will bail out NSW the same way now our budget looks crap after labor lied once more pre election, or at least cooked the books to make them look better.
      Same goes with the carbon tax. Why should I driving an efficient cleaner car ay the tax on it when some bogan with his old heavily poluting V8 doesnt cause he did not pay attention at school or failed to get ahead in life.
      As for shares, I would say every superannuation fund, bar some private ones many most of them would have shares in the Mining Industry. If not they will invest in construction, property which will get more expensive. This will ultimately effect every superannuant in Australia in some way, except of course the lazy ones who didnt put away for their retirement, but spent, gambled etc etc.
      As Mark puts (I am sure the ALP will hate him for it) we are now being asked to pay back our $ 950 cheques with interest, and now pay the bill for all the overpriced school halls, cept many of us didnt get the cheques cause we did not qualify, mind you nearly every multi millionaire I know did. Most simply added the tax and donated it to charity. So those that didnt get anything then will no doubt be screwed over once more to pay for this crap. Further they will also tax those on higher incomes more as we dont qualify for any family tax benefits, assistance etc etc. Just as most I know already had pink batts, solar hot water etc before it was trendy to do so.
      This government has no concept of commercial reality, and all you labor apologists, would never put your own money where your mouth is and back any of their plans. See all Libs would be happy for you to all pool your super and build the NBN. You can have all the profits and be responsible for all the liabilities.
      The above is just some of the points of watsage and inequity that exists. I am sure they will screw over us once more with health insurance rebate reductions or outlaws, whilst protecting lifes underachievers from any pain.
      With the greens they will now be able to screw anyone wanting more and try and create the socialist utopia they desire.

    • Against the Man says:

      11:33am | 30/04/11

      Yup. I remember pers defending the Ruddy one. Too funny smile

    • Joan says:

      11:33am | 30/04/11

      April 2007 ..... don’t recall anyone talking about struggle street but now 3 years of Labor and April 2011 and we`re all on struggle street…. and Labor laying the boot into oldtimers and looking to send old them back to work to finance Juliars and Waynes pipe dreams of saving the world the Juliar/ Wayne way the big Carbon Tax on everything.  Wow I just exhaled CO2… I do it all the time…. do I need to buy a permit?  Wow this fizzy mineral water full of CO2….. do I need a permit to drink it?  My body is 18% Carbon .... .

    • Marie says:

      11:34am | 30/04/11

      I believe very little when any government tells me a tax will be good for me. I would rather the government tell me it will be bad for me (LOL). I would be more inclined to believe them.  The problems usually do not raise there heads until the honey moon period is over and adjustments are made. Also, the impact on share values does impacts on most superannuation funds, particularly if some of the mining industries move some their operations overseas. A simplisic statement however, basic business and economic practice any good business will understand.

    • luke says:

      11:39am | 30/04/11

      Persephone you hit the nail on the head, typical labor policy is to bring everyone down to the same level of poverty. Socialism is at it’s best when controlled by the ALP.

    • CD says:

      11:44am | 30/04/11

      If we’re all polluters and we are then why should anyone be rebated let alone come out ahead? Wealth distribution pure and simple. As a Laborite you hate anyone making their way in the world so money must be removed from them and given to your preferred lot.

      BTW what’s the cut off mark between poor and middle class? Middle class and rich? Cut off thanks.

      Levy….did you even bother to do your own sums? They’re flat out wrong on the govt PDF. Your lot can’t even get that right. Simply do the first calculation on $55,000.00. Your coffee is being drunk at a 5 star establishment not a coffee shop as you lot like to make out.

    • Ben81 says:

      11:49am | 30/04/11

      Persephone, I agree the flood levy will have minimal impact on people. 

      On the carbon tax, what we do know is that Australian products will become more expensive and the result will be zero impact on climate change.  Seems pretty damn unjustified and irresponsible to me before you even start looking at the impact on individuals.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:05pm | 30/04/11

      gytr - never mind persephone’s opinion, I just want to finally hear that from the government when it comes to where the line will be drawn with the carbon tax compensation!

    • gytr says:

      12:44pm | 30/04/11

      Ben I am just curious as to what persephone *thinks* is a high family income. What does she think is a middle class income? What is defined as middle class welfare? What exactly is the “middle class” and what are the boundaries?

    • LeftRightOut says:

      01:28pm | 30/04/11

      The price of a cup of coffee you say? I reckon I could buy a couple of thousand cups of coffee with what the levy will cost my family. I real yam starting to believe that you actually do work for the ALP, Perse.
      I mean, weall sort of identify with one side or another, I do, too. I can’t imagine though, being so wedded to one side as you appear to be, unless of course you’re on the payroll.
      If you’re not on the payroll of thE ALP, then how could you be so unable to see how poor this mob is? Acknowledging their failures is not an acceptance of the other parties, just honesty. Tell me, have you any integrity?

    • Jones says:

      01:37pm | 30/04/11

      Damn straight Phil!

    • Adam says:

      02:45pm | 30/04/11

      @ Persephone - “Except that none of the taxes you’re talking about will have much (if any) impact on struggling families”.

      Please define the term “struggling family”. I think an equally accurate statement would be “These taxes you’re talking about will have an impact on almost every Australian family”.

      “The flood levy is, as you say, mild, and will only impact on high income families. For most of these, it’ll be the price of a cup of coffee.”

      It will not “only impact on high income families”. This is because they flood levy impacts everyone earning over $50,000 a year. By contrast, the average full time earnings in Australia averaged $66,594 a year. It would be more accurate to say it will impact some Australian earning lower than average income, all Australians earning an average income and all Australian earning a high income. Furthermore, the labor slogans of “just the cost of a coffee each week” (flood tax) and “just the cost of a sausage sandwich each week” (consumer power bill increase under the carbon tax) are starting to add up very quickly, particularly when added to the income tax, medicare levy, GST, fuel excise, capital gains tax, alcohol excise and alcopops tax we are already getting hammered with. I want to save my money and it makes me sick to imagine Gillard and Swan reaching into to my, and almost every other Australians pocket to buy themselves a coffee and sausage sandwich each week.

      “The carbon price will come with compensation, which will help struggling families deal with the minor price rises and give them some cash left over. In fact, in most cases, struggling families will be better off under the carbon price.”

      You have previously agreed the carbon tax will not do anything to change global temperatures. Garnaut himself even said we were doing it so Australia did not look like an economic free rider, not for any environmental gain. This now makes me wonder, if you are intending to compensate “struggling families” by taxing others, do you also agree that the carbon tax will achieve some level of wealth redistribution? That’s not to say it is the only ideological goal of the carbon tax, but it is something it will achieve.

      “And mining taxes will only impact on mining companies once these are earning bigger than usual profits.”

      I was once told the best way to see the market effect of a policy was to view the extremes. In the case of tax, 0% tax means people have a huge incentive to work because they keep everything they earn. By contrast, 100% tax means no one will work because they have no incentive (assuming you could tax intangibles to 100%). Based on this, do you think we are reducing the incentive for mining companies to earn large profits? Are we just encouraging them to achieve mediocrity? And given that “large profits” are relative to other businesses, what is to be gained by reducing the incentive to be a top performer in the Australian business market?

      “Yes, this may have some impact on share prices (although the refunding of royalties will help the profitability of some mines, especially in the start up phase) but again, it will be minimal, and will only impact on a very few (struggling families don’t tend to have big share holdings)”

      Who exactly are these “struggling families”? They seem ill defined, particularly if you can give them seemingly random attributes to support your arguments (i.e. not having big share holdings). Most Australians have superannuation funds that contains shares and the idea of super is so people can maintain a similar standard of living after retirement. A low income earner only needs to have a super fund (containing shares) of a size relative to their working life income, even if this is small relative to other Australians. All that matters is that it is relative to what they earned in their working life. By contrast a high income earner should have a bigger fund, relative to others, to maintain the higher standard of living they are used to. All that matters is it is relative to what they earned in their working life. A percentage change in either of these share holdings represents a percentage change in standard of living for both high and low income families. As such, I believe a more accurate statement would be “The mining tax impact on mining share prices will reduce the standard of living for retiring struggling families and high income earners by the same percentage” (assuming their superannuation shareholdings are the same).

      Furthermore, isn’t the point of Gillard’s latest welfare policy meant to be a reflection of the values of ordinary Australians where they are willing help people down on their luck but not long term bludgers? So the struggling families we are willing to help are unlikely to be long term unemployed people and surely, if these struggling families have ever worked they will have a superannuation fund, which will most definitely have Australian mining shares in it.

    • Ryan says:

      07:41pm | 30/04/11

      @persephone: “The flood levy is, as you say, mild, and will only impact on high income families.” this is an out and out LIE persephone and you know it. The flood levy does NOT apply to families, a family of two earners earning 50k do not pay the flood levy yet take home well over 10k a year more (taking in to account family tax benifits and the like) than a family that has one earner on 100k who WILL be paying the flood levy.
      There is no fairness in this, retract your lie and rephrase it as high income INDIVIDUALS.

    • Scranbag says:

      08:46pm | 30/04/11

      Wildly offensive exaggerations serve no purpose but to damage the credibility of the poster making them.

      It’s foolish to shrill “Lie!” at everything you disgree with, or haven’t understood, or haven’t checked.

      Perspephone has put forward a reasonable, simple summary which is broadly correct, although the levy applies to *taxable income* of individuals, not families as such. That’s how our income tax system works.

      Flood Levy facts:

      [x] The levy applies in 2011?12 to individual taxpayers with *taxable income* over $50,000.

      [x] Taxpayers who received an Australian Government Disaster Recovery Payment in 2010?11 are exempt.

      [x] The levy is 0.5 per cent will be applied on that part of an individual’s taxable income between $50,001 and $100,000.

      [x] A levy of 1.0 per cent will be applied on that part of the taxpayer’s taxable income above $100,000.

      [x] Levy payments will be made deducted from regular pay in the same way that people pay the Medicare levy.

      Examples:
      $55,000 $0.48/week
      $65,000 $1.44/week
      $100,000 $4.81/week
      $150,000 $14.42/week

      Levy calculator is available here: http://www.treasury.gov.au/floodrebuild/content/calculator.asp

      More on the Levy:
      http://www.pm.gov.au/blog/questions-about-flood-levy-answered

      Scranbag

    • Ryan says:

      10:11pm | 30/04/11

      @Scranbag: “Wildly offensive exaggerations serve no purpose but to damage the credibility of the poster making them. ” please point out the exaggerations!
      Persephone is doing what she always does which is to spread disinformation by claiming that the flood levy affects only high income families. Not only do you make a false statement (as I have repeated above) but then you go further to confirm the FACT that persephone has indeed put forward a lie in an intentional cover and I quote: “although the levy applies to *taxable income* of individuals, not families as such.”

      So if as you defend persephones indefensible comment with this statement,“That’s how our income tax system works.”, two families, one is classified a high income “family” with a take home of substantially less than the other which is not a high income “family”, but how can this be!

      Tell me something Scranbag, how is it that its OK to tax families as individuals yet when it comes to means testing its always done on a combined income basis? Surely that obvious inconsistency hasn’t escaped you.

    • Adam says:

      12:22am | 01/05/11

      @ Scranbag - “Wildly offensive exaggerations serve no purpose but to damage the credibility of the poster making them.

      Did you notice your own exaggerations in that very sentence?

    • Scranbag says:

      06:36am | 01/05/11

      Touche.

      Poor construction on my part.

      Better put as “Offensive wildly exaggerated claims”.

    • persephone says:

      08:52am | 01/05/11

      Sony B Goode

      If a few cents a day changes them from a high income family to a low income one, they weren’t high income to start with.

      Sherlock

      er, no they don’t. That’s why this is going to be a tough budget.

      Now, if you were talking about Abbott’s policies, I’d agree with you.

      Look at his carbon pricing policy - it’s going to cost $11 billion but somehow not cost anyone anything.

      Anthony of WA

      can’t see what defending Rudd has to do with whether or not my comments today are valid.

      You obviously don’t understand capitalism very well either, or economics - if you did, you’d understand that using the market to drive down carbon emissions is more effective than paying polluters not to pollute.

      I’ve answered the question a number of times. Posters here try and reframe the aim of climate pricing as driving down temperatures, which means that they’re either being deliberately misleading or don’t understand anything about the aims of a carbon price to start with.

      From the very very first, way back in the days of Kyoto, the clear aim of carbon reduction has been to stabilise world temperatures, not to reduce them.

      If you’re so ignorant about the issue that you don’t know a key fact, one which has been in the public domain since 1997, then you probably shouldn’t be commenting at all, let alone demanding information from other people.

      TimB

      we have repeated statements from the government and members of the committee as to the perameters they’re working within.

      We have figures from the CPRS, which was extensively modelled, giving us at least a ballpark idea of what the costs are likely to be and how they can be compensated for.

      The proposed carbon price in its intial stages is significantly different from the ETS, which also worked on the government setting the carbon price in the introductory period, so the figures for the first years of the ETS can be used to give people an idea of possible impacts and how these can be compensated for.

      Phil

      you seem to think that all low income families are on social security. (There’s a lot of high incomes families who receive social security benefits, btw).

      This suggests that you don’t understand what a low income family is.

      Any tax rises you face won’t even come close to paying back the $950 with interest.

      High income families benefit more from tax cuts - due to our sliding scale - then low income families do, and thus are presently paying far less tax comparitively. They are also paying far less tax than they did a few years ago.

      There are countless studies, over decades, which conclude that, over their lifetime, people basically get back the value of the tax they’ve paid through the services they use.

      But if you think it’s so tough being rich, you don’t have to be.

      I, for one, am happy to relieve you of part of the burden you carry.

      Marie

      Treasury models the impacts of proposed taxes, charges, levies, etc over many many years. That’s their job, they’re experts at it, and generally they do get it right.

      It’s not reading tea leaves and taking blind guesses!

      Luke

      if an extra couple of dollars a week is going to make you poor, you weren’t very well off to start with.

      CD

      Untrue.

      At $55,000, you’re paying 48 cents a week.

      It’s $90,000 before you’re talking a cup of coffee, and it’d be a fairly cheap one.

      Ben81

      which is why trade exposed industries will also be compensated, or exempt.

      .....going to have to split these replies for the sake of readability, so if I haven’t answered your questions, be patient!!

    • persephone says:

      09:15am | 01/05/11

      Adam

      you’re making the common mistake of bundling it all together - flood levy + carbon price + mining tax - and then saying “I’ll be ruined!”

      Firstly, the flood levy won’t be in existence by the time the carbon price is imposed - it’s only for one year.

      Secondly, the carbon price comes with compensation.

      Under the old ETS (and the cp is likely to look very similar)  on average across all households and before any compensation, the increased cost of living would have been $12 a week, $624 a year. 

      That cost would have been more than fully compensated for low income eaners, while families up to 120k at least will be fully compensated. At $120,000 income level, the cost would have been $1088, with $1240 in assistance.

      ** This information came from the Treasury costings in late 2009. I didn’t copy it all down at the time, and the relevant material’s now been removed from the Treasury website, so I can’t give you figures for over $120k.

      **** However, these were the expected impacts on prices: a rise of 0.7% overall on a $26 dollar a tonne carbon price (which is about what we’re looking at, I would think). So if you’re on $200,000 - and spending all that money on consumables - the impact would be a $1400 a year.

      But in reality, it doesn’t work that way, because higher income houses can afford to spend money to cut their emissions and thus cut those costs.

      Now, we don’t know what the new carbon price will be, but a higher carbon price means more money available for compensation, so it’s not really relevant - we can safely assume that if the carbon price is twice the one originally proposed, compensation will rise in comparison.

      All the other taxes you list you’re paying already, and even so are paying less tax than you were only a few years ago. A few of the taxes you list are entirely optional, and the government would be more than pleased if you avoided them.

      As for the ‘wealth distribution’ argument, at present our tax system tends to distribute wealth from lower income families to richer ones, which is scarcely fair by any standards.

      On mining:

      1. No. You’re making the common assumption that being taxed more means you don’t earn more. Paying extra tax on profits over 6% still means companies are making more money than they were below 6%.

      And the effective removal of royalties means in actuality that the ‘real’ rate where the tax kicks in will be (in today’s terms) 10%.

      Also, companies who are loss making or borderline will be relieved of the tax burden of royalties, which improve their profit margins.

      As for your comment re the message to other businesses, I would think Abbott’s proposed PPS levy would be more of a frightener for them. It has absolutely no compensatory measures built into it.

      As for the shareholders thingy, several superannuation companies at the time pointed out that it would have minimal impact on their portfolios, as these are (wisely) spread across a range of products.

      It can also be argued that any negative effect of taxing super profits will be offset by the benefits to mining companies which are in the exploratory or development phase and thus not earning 6% profits. This would mean that these companies would be able to deliver better returns to their shareholders.

      Ryan doesn’t get responded to - I’ve made my policy on abusive posters very clear.

      (Thanks, Scran, for providing the flood levy calculator!)

    • Bob says:

      10:24am | 01/05/11

      @Against the man

      Labor supporters defending Kevin Rudd when he was Prime Minister is nowhere near as funny as the crocodile tears shed for him by the Coalition when they were faced with Julia Gillard, and nowhere near as funny as the lovefest the Coalition supporters are currently supposedly having with him.

    • jf says:

      10:50am | 01/05/11

      Bob says:10:24am | 01/05/11

      “crocodile tears shed for him by the Coalition when they were faced with Julia Gillard”

      Don’t mistake objection to the way in which it happened for support for the man.

      “nowhere near as funny as the lovefest the Coalition supporters are currently supposedly having with him”

      Again, don’t mistake support for his criticism of the Government as suppport for the man.

      You can agree or disagree with the message whilst still having an independent view of the messenger.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:09pm | 01/05/11

      pers, read what I said again.
      Australian products will become more expensive and the result will be zero impact on climate change.
      What part of that is wrong in any way, and where are the details of the compensation and exemptions that you’ve based what you said on?

    • Ryan says:

      12:27pm | 01/05/11

      @persephone: care to point out where I abused you. I did point out the blatant lie, if calling you out on obvious lies and untruths is abusive then you are a little to precious aren’t you?
      I think the point I made is just a little to hard for you to deal with and hence won’t answer just as you normally do.

    • Adam says:

      12:34pm | 01/05/11

      @ Pers - Thanks for taking the time to reply to my mammoth post, although I am still waiting for a clear definition of “struggling family”. I know most people would believe they fit into this group, however, without a clear definition it would appear to be more of a motherhood statement deliberately designed to deceive people into thinking they will be looked after, when they will not.

    • Ryan says:

      12:39pm | 01/05/11

      @Scranbag: again unable to defend the indefensible, an unevenly placed flood tax putting further pressure on low income families.

      Any answer to the difference between a means test being placed on combined income yet taxes and levies being placed on individual income, no I thought not!

    • persephone says:

      01:13pm | 01/05/11

      Ryan

      at most I was guilty of sloppy phrasing, the kind almost every writer on this subject uses.

      That’s not lying.

      Leaping straight to calling me a liar without giving me the opportunity to correct or explain myself is abusive in my book.

      If it’s not in yours, fine. Go for it. Just don’t expect me to respond.

      Ben

      as I said before, we can fairly safely look to the former ETS for guidance on these matters, as well as the statements of committee members.

      Trade exposed industries, under the last ETS, were offered free or cheap carbon credits or were given compensation.

      This meant that the ETS made no difference to their costs.

      It is very likely that the new scheme will be similar.

      Of course, some industries will still cry poor, but there’s a lot of negotiating and modelling going on to try to minimise this.

      (I note that a couple of the businesses making lots of noises about carbon pricing are technically bust anyway - they’re looking for a convenient way of blaming this on the government, rather accepting fault themselves).

      Adam

      apologies for not addressing your question directly, but I thought there was enough detail in the post for inferences to be drawn.

      Still, I’ll accept the blame for using a short hand phrase rather than a clear definition.

      As someone whose family income is less than $40 k a year, I’d strongly suggest I know what a struggling family is! But I’d also say that, on that income, we live far better than I did as a child, when my parents had a better comparitive wage.

      (Lifestyle choice, btw; I wouldn’t mind earning a little more than I do, but we’re far from living in cardboard boxes on the street).

      In the ETS, compensation was very much directed at families, as one of the proposed methods for directing compensation was through family payments. This also gives you a definition of ‘struggling’, I suggest, as family payments go mostly to lower income families.

      But largely, yes, it is a subjective term. That said, some families chose to struggle - they’ve made a variety of choices to get into the position they are, and could change some of these very easily if they didn’t want to struggle.

      So (and this is getting a bit waffly, I realise) we have a number of definitions of ‘struggling family’ -

      1. A family who, to afford the basics of life, needs their income supplemented by various government allowances and has little choice when it comes to reducing their current levels of expenditure.

      2. A family who can afford all the basics of life and has chosen optional extras which make it difficult to balance their budget or to take up other options that they think they’d like.

      I think 1 is the most accurate description of a true ‘struggling family’.

      I’d reckon $50 k and below total family income is probably a reasonable figure.

    • Anthony of WA says:

      01:54pm | 01/05/11

      Persphone, unlike you I am employeed and self employed (I have 2 jobs) in the real world, and do not spend my days on the Punch. I brought up you backing Rudd to highlight your habit of backing a dudd inspite of all the evidence that you are.
      I know enough about economics to know as a business owner, I do not and can not absorb all my cost increases and pass the bulk of it on in the form of an increase in the price of what I produce.
      The same with a carbon price, it will be past on to the end user, which in the real world is us the consumer (working families or what other BS title you want to give us). My suggestion is you get a real job and find out how tough it is to get a head in the real world, and get pissed off with the rest of us when you see the ALP waste our hard earn money.

    • Adam says:

      03:26pm | 01/05/11

      @ Pers - Cheers for the definition, however, even with it I see no reason to help these strugglers (families or otherwise). They should live in the real world with the rest of us. Not be insulated from it whenever prices go up at the expense of those around them who work hard. Furthermore, the struggle itself is what provides the incentive for them to get educated, work their ass off and reap the rewards of such behaviour. I know this is what motivated me to better myself when I was earning less than $26k per annum a few years back.

    • Marie says:

      04:11pm | 01/05/11

      Pers: re treasury modeling. Much depends on the scope of the project and information the government presents to treasury. I trust NO government to give un-bias ‘scoping’ to treasury. The government of the day will presents the proposal as they see it, to ensure it gets through within the confine of the project brief.

    • persephone says:

      04:38pm | 01/05/11

      Anthony

      thanks for the patronising tone, and the assumptions!

      I come from a family of small business owners, I have owned and run a small business, and am in the process of starting up another one.

      Not that any of that has any bearing on whether the points I make here are valid or invalid.

      Adam

      firstly, similarly to Anthony, you’re making a heap of assumptions here.

      A lot of the families we’re describing aren’t there by choice - most single mothers I know, for example, would still rather be married to the man who’s nipped off with the younger woman, and tried everything they possibly could to avoid being in the situation they’re in.

      We also NEED (alas) people to do our grunt labour and necessarily pay them less than others. Not all of these people have the intellectual capacity to suceed, but it’d be a pretty heartless society that said that because Dad was as dumb as dipshit his kids deserve to starve.

      The evidence from other countries (look at some of the links I gave St Michael about the US, which covers this) is that social mobility is best facilitated where there is assistance provided and that failure to support the poor - working or otherwise - entrenches poverty and increases the burden on society.

      In other words, spending money supporting lower income people pays off in the long run, in a variety of ways.

      Societies which help those on lower incomes, for example,  tend to have lower crime rates, which benefits those on higher salaries who would otherwise be their main targets.

      The ol’ survival of the fittest thing only works if everyone genuinely has equal opportunities to begin with.

      As for the ‘working your ass’ off bit - a low income earner who is working three or four different jobs, or simply doing one very hard one (try ten hour days out in a field with no toilet facilities and no shelter), is certainly doing that.

      I’m afraid the tone you’re taking here suggest you’re either relatively young and inexperienced or from a fairly priviledged background (although you probably think of it as a struggling family).

    • Adam says:

      05:47pm | 01/05/11

      @ Pers - They may not be there by choice, but they will stay there if we don’t give them an incentive to better themselves. The struggle provides just that incentive.

      Further to this, I will happily help someone down on their luck to get back on their feet, but, given the choice, I would refuse to support them long term. Doing so means they take your kindness for granted and then grow to expect it via an entitlement mentality. The US system you mention addresses this via the “five year limit on assistance for your lifetime”. This means you have five years of welfare you can claim for your entire life (more than enough to help people down on their luck). The savings they get by not supporting people long term are reinvested into paying for people education/trades and even day-care while they study during this five year period. It has been a great success as you mention. Furthermore, it helps people, gives them skills and education but refuses to support habitual welfare bludgers long term. If labor put a five year limit on welfare for life, they probably get my vote (provided they implemented it before an election and didn’t promise to do it after an election because we all know Gillard is a bit of liar). For info here is the wiki version US legislation I am talking about. It is the simplest to read.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act

      “I’m afraid the tone you’re taking here suggest you’re either relatively young and inexperienced or from a fairly priviledged background (although you probably think of it as a struggling family)”

      Lol, I’ll give you a dollar if you can accurately read my tone off the screen. I assure you it is actually quite jovial because I am enjoying the debate. Though your ad hominem attack seems to suggest you may be getting a little frustrated or tired? How about you try to avoid painting me as a villain because it only serves to weaken your argument and I’d hate to see you become one of those abusive posters you detest.

    • Scranbag says:

      05:50pm | 01/05/11

      It seems to me that part of the muddle in discussion here is some confusion between *gross* income and *taxable* income.  The Flood Levy is for one year on *taxable* income over $50,000.

      It’d be interesting to see just what gross income worked out to be,  for an individual with taxable income of $50,000, as one of a couple family with 2 dependents. Or maybe variations there on, as that is only very roughly the “average” family these days.

      Anyone who still does their own tax return might be able to give it a shot.

      Persephone, any chance you might be able nut that one out, or find a source? You’ll see what I’m getting at. 

      I’m a bit busy tonight to give it a whirl.

      regards and good night
      Scranbag

      Punch emails in the intray: nil to date
      Punch moderated posts: nil to date

    • persephone says:

      07:55pm | 01/05/11

      Adam

      it’s simply not possible to have a society where everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

      Firstly, there’s always going to be those who - because they’ve been left to bring up a family alone, because they’ve been disabled, or because they’re simply not intellectually equipped for it - are not able to ‘better’ themselves. They still can make a worthwhile contribution to society.

      Secondly, we need ditchdiggers, garbos and check out chicks just as much as we need lawyers and merchant bankers, even though we don’t pay them as much.

      The idea that the poor can all become rich if they just pull up their socks and get down to it is incredibly ignorant. By suggesting that you’re either very young or very priviledged, I’m trying to give you an out.

      Scranbag

      What you’re asking for is incredibly complex and variable, but (from memory) a few years ago Costello boasted that the majority of families effectively paid nothing in tax - there’s so many kickbacks, deductions and government contributions that most families get more from the government than they give.

      If anything, things have improved even more in the years since - families can now claim a range of educational expenses, thus further reducing their tax bill.

      Like you, I don’t have the time to explore this more at the moment, but the thrust of what you’re saying is correct.

    • Adam says:

      09:36pm | 01/05/11

      @ Pers – “it’s simply not possible to have a society where everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps”

      Nor is it possible to have a society where everyone lives on welfare, so, where possible, we need to give them an incentive to get off it. The struggle provides this incentive so it seems foolish to try to remove or reduce it by insulating them from rising costs that everyone else has to accept as part of the real world.

      The rest of your comment was a straw man at best. I’m happy for people to do low end jobs. Seeing people in work is a great thing because it means they are not a long term welfare bludger. I also believe we should help people who are seriously disabled (either mentally or physically), although that is not to say we can’t assist such people in finding meaningful work that suites them where possible.

      My beef is with the long term welfare cases. Single mums and the like, who have no physical or mental incapacity that prevents them working, living of the forced charity of others via welfare. As you so graciously pointed me toward, the US welfare system address this problem. It provides otherwise able bodied people with five year of welfare for their entire life. This is more than enough for people down on their luck or victims of circumstance. It also breaks the cycle of welfare dependence and prevents immigrants coming to the country to live on welfare. Furthermore, it seeks to directly address the single mother welfare problem by paying for their children to go to day care while the mother gets an education or work experience. It has been remarkably successful in reducing welfare dependence. Or are you going back on what you said about the US system being a great example of where welfare has provided social mobility and prevented poverty becoming entrenched thus, reducing the burden on society? And wasn’t getting long term bludgers off welfare a goal that Ms Gillard announced last week? I though you generally agreed with her on things.

      “By suggesting that you’re either very young or very priviledged, I’m trying to give you an out”

      Hahaha. So now an ad hominem attack is a gracious thing? Oh Pers, you are too funny. Care to give me a definition of “very young” or “very privileged” or are they just subjective terms you use to try to attack someone’s credibility when you can’t counter their ideological arguments? Oh, and don’t worry, I don’t need you to give me a way out of my anonymous position on the internet (unless Conroy has plans to do more than just censor the entire internet and is secretly tracking labor dissenters too?).

      P.S. That’s the second time you’ve spelt privileged incorrectly. I’m not a grammar/spelling nazi or anything, I just noticed it twice and thought you might want to know raspberry

    • Ryan says:

      11:06pm | 01/05/11

      @persephone: I tell you what, I would have definitely apologised had it been “sloppy phrasing” and you did in fact stop using the word “families” when you know full well that our blatantly unfair tax system and these levies especially are not calculated on total family income. In fact in the very same reply where you claimed to feel abused and refused to answer my questions you still said “while families up to 120k at least will be fully compensated”, continuing to spout so-called “sloppy phrasing”.

      So when Julia Gillard said “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”, this was just “sloppy phrasing” ?

    • Phil says:

      11:42pm | 01/05/11

      Perse.
      Not sure where I stated that low income families are on welfare!!!

      I did state that life is a choice for most. Yes some in life we should take care of. The disabled, vulverable etc You highlight the US system, but just how many of the lifestyle choice bludgers would be effected by such a system. I personally think we need to take far better care of those who loose their jobs or one partner leaves and kids are stranded, the disabled and even where one needs to leave the workforce temorarily to provide palative care for a child etc, but for a time only. See I would increase social security to what someone was earning up to $ 600 a week take home but only for 6 months, that way they can pay some bills without going too far backwards whilst looking for a proper job. If after 6 months, no job then back to what it is now. Only 6 months at the high rate in any 5 year period and not more than twice in 20 years. Same goes when one partner leaves suddenly, we need to provide a level of income better than we do, but again for not more than 12 months, during which counselling would be provided, training done and the partner brought into the workforce be that slowly, etc. See its when the shit hits the fan in life that you need real money, not the crummy dole/single mothers (yes Erick I know there are single fathers) benefit. Look after them initially, provide clothing food and shelter but also investigate circumstances and I know this is hard to get through in a short piece, but see if recoveries are possible against any guilty party, be that Bashing ex husband/wife, wrongful dismissal etc etc.

      Cup of coffee flood levy, I would like to pay just that or $ 5 a week but mine will be more like a two cups of coffee a day plus a bloody nice sandwich/lunch meal at David Jones.

      See what sucks about the Queensland flood levy is that they didnt take out insurance, where our state governments and others did, so we paid for our own insurance via state taxes, now because they failed in their duty to effect insurance we are being asked to pay to rebuild their state. It should be all Queenslanders who are paying after all they havent paid insurance, elected the weather woman and her bunch of misfits for well over a decade who didnt do what they should have and take out insurance. They saved probably 500-1000 million in insurance premiums or more and now we are indemnifying them and to top it all off more Queenslanders will probably be exempt from payingthe flood levy than will kick the tin. If the QLD government were a corporation all of them would be in Jail for this breach in their duties alone.

      Didnt get the $ 950, nor did I get anything else except my daughters school did get I think $ 1,5M and just the year 4 dads would pay more than that in personal income tax each year. Funny how labor laughed at the Libs at the time of the $ 950 when Turnbull said Kevin Rudd is giving it to you now, but will ask for it back several times with interest in years to come and your lot said it was BS.

      See I went through a tough patch where I couldnt work for 7 months 5-6 years back, it was my fault, but I never claimed any form of benefit and recon it cost me at least $ 100K at the time in lost earnings. I earnt $10000 odd that year and had to borrow money off friends to buy food Christmas 2005. I told myself never again, and worked bloody hard and long hours starting and working 3 businesses so that today I am able to earn a good living and basically do what I wish within reason.

      As for people basically getting back in services what they pay, this must be from labor 101. Maybe many labor voters do, but you know thats not true, someone paying $100000 a year in personal taxes and plenty of us do, would unless they had heart surgery annually or got a pacemaker or the like, be unlikely to get back what they paid in taxes in services year on year.

      By the way. thanks for your offer I just got a massive tax bill to pay which I would be more than happy if you would relieve me of.

    • persephone says:

      07:59am | 02/05/11

      Anthony

      so why am I ‘unlike you’ then?

      You seemed to be implying that this was because you’re employed and assuming that I wasn’t.

      That’s fairly offensive.

      Ryan

      yes, because Adam asked me for a definition.

      Adam

      er, I said exactly the opposite about the US system. You may have got St Michael’s and my comments confused (easy to do, it was a fairly lengthy and detailed exchange).

      Personally, I’d be quite happy for no one to be compensated, because that would force change more quickly (although I think the guage of a good society is how much it cares for the people who live within it).

      However, we live in that inconvenient thing called the real world, where change is always difficult and people scream like cut snakes if you suggest that they contribute an extra $1 a week, no matter how worthy the cause (just read the posts on this blog).

      So change needs to be accompanied by sweeteners, if it is to be permanent.

      We need to change our economy so that we emit less. This needs to be a permanent change. If this means compensating people, that’s a small price to pay in the scheme of things.

    • Scranbag says:

      08:13am | 02/05/11

      Several posters are making the same basic error: talking gross income as if it were taxable income. 

      Example:  ADamC some way above
      “flood levy impacts everyone earning over $50,000 a year. By contrast, the average full time earnings in Australia averaged $66,594 a year”

      There are two errors here.
      First: “flood levy impacts everyone earning over $50,000”
      No. Flood levy is on *taxable* income, not gross as implied.

      Second: “By contrast, the average full time earnings in Australia averaged $66,594 a year”
      But Average Weekly Earnings is *gross* income, not *taxable* income.
      Annually: $66,000 *gross*.  Apples v Oranges.

      The two simply don’t make the point AdamC and others are attempting.  Levy applies only over $50,000 *taxable*  income.

      Broadly speaking, gross income will be higher, possibly much higher, than taxable income.

      Complaining that you’re “on $100,000 a year” is neither here nor there. What’s your *taxable* income?

      That’s what’ll determine your flood levy in 2011/2012.  Not your headline salary on your payslip.

      I will have a hunt about and see what I can find. Meanwhile I’ve got stuff to do.

      Cheers for now
      Scranbag

      Punch moderated posts: nil to date
      Punch staff emails in the email intray: nil to date

    • Adam says:

      10:22am | 02/05/11

      @ Scranbag - Adam C and I are different people. Anyway, I acknowledge what you are saying, however, I also believe that the comparison is fairly accurate and trying to say it is like comparing apples and oranges is a little disingenuous. The 2010 average wage ($66,594) is a great starting point because we can subtract the 2010 average tax deduction ($3311) from it. This gives an approx taxable income of $63k. Not all that far from my original $66k. I’d say I’m comparing apples and apples.

      @ Pers – It has been lengthy so I may have gotten confused about your position on things. I’ll try to clarify it below.

      ‘Welfare for the seriously disabled (mental or physical).’

      I think this good. You agree. Correct?

      ‘Continuous welfare support to the long term unemployed.’

      I believe this is a bad thing and we should go with the five limit for a person’s lifetime like in the US, then reinvest the saving back into giving people education, work experience and providing childcare while they study during this five year period (perhaps even increasing the amount a little during this period, as he poster above suggests). I’m unsure where you stand on long term unemployed though it seemed you were prepared to fund then indefinitely and insulate them against rising costs/struggling, etc. Correct? I just assumed you’d be on board with Gillard in relation to getting people off long term welfare so some of your responses above surprised me (though I may have misinterpreted them).

      ‘Helping struggling people (i.e. low income individuals or families).’

      I disagree we should reduce this struggle for them by giving them other people’s money to insulate them against rising costs (particularly when everyone else has to pay these rising costs in the real world). In my opinion, it is this struggle that provides the incentive for them to better themselves, just as it does for everyone else. I think you sit on the other side of the fence here and think we should give them other people’s money to insulate them from rising costs everyone else has to pay. Correct? NOTE: I don’t currently have a complaint with the other assistance low income people receive. It seems reasonable.

      Is that a fairly accurate summary (even if a little brief)?

    • Ryan says:

      11:10am | 02/05/11

      @persephone: does that mean you gave him a false definition?

    • Scranbag says:

      02:55pm | 02/05/11

      Adam,
      Adam indeed - a slip, my apologies.

      You weren’t the only one using different figures interchangeably.

      I’d be interested in the source for the average deduction figure.

      To make another gross v taxable comparison, I’ll put forward my own case. Note: for the sake of privacy, rather than to be disingenuous in any way, I’ll show only %ages.

      My taxable income last year was 87.6% of my gross income.

      Adam’s two average examples give an average taxable income about 95% of average gross income, assuming the averages are properly comparable.

      Big difference, worth looking into to see what it may mean.

      I’m according the usual neutral, non-accusative meanings to all terms here. Because? Because it’d be interesting to see what differences arise and how, when we use like and/or unlike data.

      If and when I can find some more sourced information, I’ll post again on this if I’m able.

      Lastly, though, “Disingenuous”: Secret motive? Dishonest? Insincere? 

      I reject the charge, whichever meaning intended. Utterly, fully and absolutely reject it, without qualification or further remark.

      cheers for now
      Scranbag

    • Adam says:

      07:23pm | 02/05/11

      @ Scranbag - No worries. Adam C hasn’t made any posts on this thread. They are all mine so I’ll take the blame for using gross and taxable figures interchangeably. I didn’t do it to deceive, just because I knew they were so close it didn’t really make much difference when it came to average earnings.

      Anyway I found the average deduction figure ($3311) in The Australian, though they are quoting it from the ATO.

      http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/wealth/beware-the-taxation-traps/story-e6frgac6-1225866965809

      And the average wage of $66,594 a year on the “Living in Australia” website, though they quoted it from the ABS.

      http://www.livingin-australia.com/salaries-australia/

      I am assuming this is the part of the ABS site they got the info from because the seasonally adjusted full time figures are about right for an average of $66k a year.

      http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6302.0

      As for you having a taxable income of 87.6% of your gross income, I’d speculate that you probably have more stuff to claim than the average person (property investments perhaps?) or just put more effort into your tax return than others. Without access to the underlying ABS and ATO data it is impossible to tell.

      Disingenuous - Adjective - Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

      I actually thought you were pretending to know less than you did when you said that comparing gross average weekly earnings and taxable average weekly earnings was like comparing apples and oranges. I had just assumed you knew they were very close in my example and were being pedantic in an effort to undermine some of my earlier arguments. Consider it entirely retracted or even as a backhanded compliment if that helps.

      Anyway, thanks for the reasonable response and we may chat again later smile

    • Scranbag says:

      12:45pm | 03/05/11

      Thanks, though I fancy there were others, too.

      Here’s current comparable data from ATO.  Not exactly what your headline salary packet $s say, but comparing like with like, from Tax data – just right, for a tax levy.

      Using numbers and simple averages, as before. Averages are a rather blunt instrument,  that may be skewed by extremes or by comparing “unlikes”. Easy and useful here for like on like.

      The ATO tables show average total income of taxable individuals of $59,000 and their average taxable income at $55,800 (about 95%).

      For all individuals, the average $ amounts fall a deal but the taxable/total ratio stays at 95%.

      So Adam was right on the proportion, on the other hand, the $50,000 limit now looks to be imminently reasonable, as Persephone and I suggested.  On average taxable income of $55,800, the Flood Levy will be all of $29. For the whole year.

      So here we have real, useful info, nutted out because three individuals took a moment to listen and discuss differences constructively.

      Cheers for now
      Scranbag

    • Scranbag says:

      12:48pm | 03/05/11

      THE NUMBERS

      Personal Tax 2007/2008 (1)
      Taxable Individuals (2) 9,881,550
      All individuals (includes (3)) 12,640,765
      Total income (4) $583,371,385,886
      Taxable income $551,748,378,053

      Av total income/ taxable individual $59,000
      Av taxable income/taxable individual $55,800
      Av total income all individuals $46,150
      Av taxable income all individuals (5) $43,600

      (1) From 2008 individual income tax returns processed by 31 October 2009. Not necessarily complete. For further information see ‘Personal tax’ chapter of Taxation statistics 2007–08.
      (2) Refers to personal (or individual) taxpayers with net tax payable greater than $0.
      (3) Refers to personal (or individual) taxpayers with net tax payable equal to $0.
      (4) The ‘Total income’ reported in this table is based on the total calculated by the Tax Office during tax return assessment ....
      (5) Average taxable income is for taxables and non-taxables combined.
      (6) Average net tax calculated by dividing net tax amount by number of taxable taxpayers.

      ATO Taxation statistics 2007–08 Table 1: Personal tax
      http://www.ato.gov.au/content/downloads/cor00225078_2008PER1.pdf
      And
      http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.aspx?menuid=0&doc;=/content/00225078.htm&page=9&H9;
      Scranbag

    • Adam says:

      12:13am | 04/05/11

      Not so fast Scranbag. As you admit, you are using financial year 07/08 figures when taxable income would have been $55,800. The flood levy applies in financial year 10/11. My figures were from 2010 and much more accurately represent what will form the taxable income figures for 10/11. My figures are closer to $66,000 gross and $63,000 taxable. Since we are now trying to get as close to the truth as possible, I’d suggest we use these for the sake of accuracy.

      Also, my issue was not with the amount people had to pay. I was just demonstrating that it would be accurate to say the flood levy will impact some Australians earning a lower than average income, all Australians earning an average income and all Australians earning a high income.

      This was part of a larger point I was making that the taxes Persephone was talking about (flood levy, carbon tax and mining tax) will have an impact on almost every Australian.

    • Scranbag says:

      09:22am | 04/05/11

      AWE is an average itself, and obscures any skews from low or high disprortionate contributors.

      Assuming all those paying the flood levy will all be FT Employed is an approximation in itself. 

      The $3311 average tax deduction is ATO 2007/2008 data, as sourced above. And yet another, non-current approximation, then, when applied to 2010 earnings data.  The impact or extent of tax changes from that date is unknown to me.

      For the record, Adult AWE FT employed Ordinary time eanings in Nov 2007: $58000.
      ABS: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6302.0

      Footnote: All data cited by me is individual data, another approximation, having not found any couple family data in the time available to me.

      “Admit”? 
      Spare me the neatly negative loaded tags. No.
      Stated. Sourced. Fully, accurately, comparably and as up to date as found at ATO.

      “Truth”
      However truthful any of us may be personally, when it comes to data like this, the best we can do is get to as accurate and comparable approximation as we can. Hence the averages. Hence the ATO data.

      I’ve no idea why A now adds “truth” to *his* approximations, unless he’s trying to imply tension between that and the pejorative “admit” he’s attempted to attach to me - to yet again imply slyness in my position.

      Whether he intended that or not, that is the impression he’s left, from his opening dart onwards.

      I reject the slurs and abjure the use of such loaded remarks, and withdraw my use of the term “constructive” for this discussion.

      Stuff to do.
      Scranbag


      Emails & moderations to date: nil all.

    • Adam says:

      07:01pm | 04/05/11

      @ Scranbag - No negative connotation was attached to my use of the words “admit”, “truth” or the rest of my post. I just thought we had moved from using my original approximations to trying to be as precise as possible. As such, I was trying to constructively highlight some of the weaknesses in the figures above as well as restating the statements I was using the figures to support. Though, as you highlight, being precise is very difficult to do with the available data and drawing large inferences from it is dangerous at best.

      Apologies if I have somehow offended you. That was not my intent, though it is sometimes easy to come across that way using only written expression, particularly without the benefit of the tone and inflection associated with voice communication. Anyway, I still think the debate was constructive but have to move into other things.

      Regards, Adam.

    • Denny Crane says:

      08:05am | 30/04/11

      Clutching at a few straws there Mark. The fact is that voters had nothing to thank labor for in the GFC. They did nothing but spend money. They did not save the money, they did not regulate our financial institutions, they did not open the trade links to China that started the resource boom.

      They spent. And they spent too much. They created fear in the community then tried to quell the fear by a massive over reaction. They had the 3rd biggest spend in the developed world and it was needless. The first stimulas package should have surficed. The second was either a cynical vote buying exercise or it exposed the economic illiteracy of Swan and Rudd.

      To say their measures ensured no lasting impression from a recession that never was is only half true. It was the recession that never was but the impression will be long lasting. I expect my four year old will still be paying for this folly when he finally becomes a tax payer in 15-20 years time.

      Finally its typically hypocritical to be picking the splinter out of Abbots eye with regard mere slogans. It is what labor have built their house of cards on. They have little or no substance and this is borne out in their current performance. They have failed in everything they have attempted and there are no signs that anything will change. Gillard, the straw woman, has shrunk in the job and nobody is listening to her.

    • Chris L says:

      05:16pm | 30/04/11

      “They had the 3rd biggest spend in the developed world and it was needless.” - You demonstrate the counter-factual problem described in the article. Nicely done.

    • nossy says:

      08:21am | 30/04/11

      Tony Abbott has not once bested Julia Gillard as Preffered PM in the polls Mark - not once ! The Coalition is led by a hollowman with no policies or ideas for Australia. His trademark is simply to say “NO” to everything. As Laurie Oakes has labelled him he is “Tony the One Trick Pony” ! Oh shame Coalition for throwing out someone who was engaging the Australian community in debate on issues of the day - Malcolm Turnbull. The sooner they restore Turnbull to the leadership the sooner they can get back on the road to the possibility of actually winning an election. Dont forget viewers it was this dislike or distrust of the hollow Abbott that caused the Coalition to unbelievably lose the unloseable election last year when Labor 3 weeks into the campaign were gone for all money. Abbott pulled defeat from victory then proceeded in kind unable to get even one Independent on side - Since then even Crook the WA National has decamped as well ! Ms Gillard is streets ahead of Abbott in the “smarts” as Abbott even himself has conceded. And finally didnt Ms Gillard look radiant at the big wedding last night - a classy representative of Australia. Imagine Tones “swaggering” into Westminster -  oh god spare us !

    • ifonly says:

      10:14am | 30/04/11

      Preferred PM is only a measure of a characteristic that can be associated with success. It is a little like saying of Napoleon as he matches across Europe “he isn’t an aristocat” or Zuckerberg/Gates/Rockerfeller “they didn’t finish college”.

      Rather than ticking every box, they succeed because they are so good at what they do.

    • TimB says:

      10:47am | 30/04/11

      The direct correlation between Labor’s falling primary vote and Nossy’s ever decreasing sanity levels are facinating to behold.

    • MarK says:

      11:04am | 30/04/11

      Don’t you fins it quite ironic that you, Badger and the rest of the fanbois consistently only have “one trick” to denigrate Abbott with?

      If he is as bad, nearly as bad or a minute fraction as pointless as you guys maintain please explain to me the 10 point gap in the polls.

      Look at the Essential website. Look at the polls they run. Look at the questions they ask. Look at the answers given.

      Time to stop the No mantra. It doesn’t wash in reality and in practice just reinforces that Abbott has more significance than you can attack credibly.

    • nossy says:

      12:13pm | 30/04/11

      @TimB and MarK - dearest correspondents may I remind you both once again that the next election is in 2013 - now thats 2 and a half years away chaps ! Whilst Gillard gets on with the affairs of state how pray tell is Tony going to fill in the next 2 plus years when his only policy is ‘NO” ? hahahah I see Turnbull coming back into the picture very very soon and as I said yesterday i might just give him my vote ! An Abbott/Joyce government is too much to even contemplate - I would migrate to NZ !

    • Rosie says:

      12:25pm | 30/04/11

      Hey Nosthow,

      Tim the boyfriend got carried away at how beautiful he thought Julia looked at the wedding especially her hair that he became romantic and gave us the impression that they were in hitching mood.

      Julia should wed Tim, hold a lavish wedding like the one we just had, invite the likes of us, world dignitaries and not her staunch supporters like yourself. We get to mingle with the world dignitaries then and only then will she get our votes and remain the “bestest” in the next Elections.

      Her only chance Nosthow when you take into consideration she has nothing else on the table to offer us!

    • Felipe says:

      12:55pm | 30/04/11

      “One trick pony” and “mad monk”,  it is you labor and your media supporters Oakes and Grattan that are hollow.  Gillard goes to big occasions but will never dirty her dress and her shoes to go in to check on the aborigines.  She has lied about not implementing a carbon tax in the last election 24 hours before the voting started.  Talking about the independents, the two guys Windsor and Oakeshott have sided with her because they have their own revenge agenda against the Nationals.  The next election will show you the reaction of their conservative communities.  “Gillard look radiant” you say,  I find her attire no different to what she wears everyday in parliament, a jacket over a blouse.  Well she has had her fun now it is time to govern and that is where she is utterly hopeless.

    • nossy says:

      01:02pm | 30/04/11

      @Rosie - i dont know whats wrong with that Timmy Rosie truly I dont - if that was me i would be in like flynn and hey presto nossy would be at Joolias side- lucky gel ! I have a theory Rosie that later on closer to the elction in 2013 if the polls are bad they will spring a BIG wedding and the polls will go through the roof !

    • CD says:

      01:03pm | 30/04/11

      I’ll take a NO before I accept a YES Prime Minister who will bend over for every party or self interest group she needs to stay in power with no regard to the greater good anytime thanks.
      God help me…the years I wasted voting Labor.

    • jf says:

      01:08pm | 30/04/11

      nossy says:12:13pm | 30/04/11

      An Abbott/Joyce government is too much to even contemplate - I would migrate to NZ !

      Promise?

    • CD says:

      01:09pm | 30/04/11

      NZ if Abbott and Joyce win the next election huh?

      Is that a promise?;)

    • nossy says:

      01:36pm | 30/04/11

      @jf and CD - youse guys hahah You would both be at Brizzy International screaming “nossy dont go nossy !” But not to worry lads - Abbott couldnt win a 100m sprint with 90metres start !  hahahahah

    • Tamam shud says:

      01:47pm | 30/04/11

      Nonsense - let us be clear, Gillard lost the un-losable election. Gillard’s approval ratings were far above Abbott’s for most of the election campaign, and she chose an early election based on her high polling at the time.
      Second, Bob Katter supported Abbott over Gillard. The other independents were a lost cause.
      Third, for all the loathing of Abbott by the progressive-left, we all know what he stands for, whereas who knows what position Gillard will take tomorrow. Almost every major policy has been a blunder, to the point where most members of the public are able to rattle off a list without much difficulty. Abbott was a capable minister, a Rhodes scholar, and has written a book outlining his vision for Australia - Gillard on the other hand is a cipher, whose major speeches in parliament have been mostly aggressive attacks on the opposition without giving any indication of an underlying set of principles.
      Finally, Turnbull is loved by Labor voters because he almost destroyed the Coalition from within. He burnt his bridges and should not lead the party again.

    • Rosie says:

      01:56pm | 30/04/11

      Dear dearest Nosthow,

      I can’t believe it, that I am begining to enjoy your company. I am not sure whether it was the royal wedding or that I am come to the realization that you aren’t being serious about the comments you make.

      Some of the bloggers on your side have tried to team me up with Against The Man in the blogasphere but to that I say no thanks because I have too much respect for the cause that I am fighting for and Against The Man is as passionate about the fight as I am.

      I think I prefer you, as nothing you say is taken seriously anymore. How about it? You and I can have a blogashphere love, hate relationship happening?????? I am certain I can handle it and if Julia weds Tim you can then accompany me.

      I wait patiently for an answer and don’t worry if it is a “No” I’ll understand and respect your wishes.

    • jf says:

      02:32pm | 30/04/11

      nossy says:01:36pm | 30/04/11

      “@jf and CD - youse guys hahah You would both be at Brizzy International screaming “nossy dont go nossy !””

      True, to true, Every circus needs a clown.

    • fairsfair says:

      04:09pm | 30/04/11

      Nossy - you so deserve the nosebleed section for this one.

    • Phil says:

      04:51pm | 30/04/11

      Nossy. I will pay your air ticket. The punch have my details.

    • Bruce says:

      05:20pm | 30/04/11

      Juliiar Giltard minority PM. Says it all.

    • Chris L says:

      06:10pm | 30/04/11

      I see an online romance between Nossy and Rosie blooming. I have idealogical and perceptual opposition to both but, against all logic, I hope these two kids make it in the world together grin

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      07:04pm | 30/04/11

      @Chris L, Nah I see the online romance between Nossy and Rosie as a doomed romance, Romeo and Juliet style.

    • Paulb says:

      09:02am | 30/04/11

      “Insightful approach”?  Hurling all the taxpayers’ money overboard in the midst of a debt driven financial collapse is “insightful”??

    • Joan says:

      10:19am | 30/04/11

      It was a panic driven money splurge by amateurs and it was as silly as as anyone who worked for a company going into liquidation deciding to spend all their savings and max all their credit cards without first sussing out the ramifications of losing their job. The same crazies that spent all the money and more in a panic are the same panicked crazies that wanted to ram ETS down our throat before Copenhagen flop. Thank heaven Abbott stopped that crazy Rudd panic scheme in its tracks. The list of Labor failures grows daily ..nothing insightful about Labor at all… just a bunch of amateur lightweights now joined by light-light- light weights of Greens and Independents….. expect Australia to sink further as Australians tighten their spending, keep their savings as they totally lose confidence in this Gillard government. Unlike the Labor Australians don’t go spending and increasing debt when things look like getting tough…. they monitor the scene and spend only what is necessary…. they don’t splurge and then repent - unlike Labor

    • Sony B Goode says:

      09:13am | 30/04/11

      Labor seem to think there is no problem large or small that can’t be fixed with a good thumping tax. Out of touch, out of ideas and not too long before they are out of here…

    • Phil says:

      04:56pm | 30/04/11

      Problem is that Kevin 07 had JWH to copy. Labor were out of their depth as soon as they had no one to copy. All KRUDD did was to copy JWH and Costello say he would save the planet and sign Kioto and wella, a strong union funded campaign on workchoices and he gets over the line.

    • AdamC says:

      09:36am | 30/04/11

      I have simply tuned out of the pre-budget theatrics. What is the point? Sure, revenues are a little sluggish, but Swansong is cynically trying to spin the lack of a revenue bonanza as a revenue catastrophe. Peter Costello’s recent article in the Age eviscerated the Treasurer on this very issue. Highly recommended.

      People simply aren’t dumb enough to buy the government’s ‘getting tough’ act. And that is one of the reasons why Labor’s primary vote is collapsing. They have built this shadow edifice of spin and obfuscation and, out there in punterland, the undecideds are starting to worry that Labor leaders may be starting to confuse their fantasies with reality!

      Meanwhile, Ju-Liar’s handlers are doing their level best to keep her overseas, where her ability to do damage is most limited.

    • Joan says:

      09:47am | 30/04/11

      `Stop the boats, end the waste, repay the debt`..... that`s what has to be done ... no argument about that. And who got Australia in this dire stew, pickle, mess.?.... Labor in just three years at the helm.. You don’t have to be a Rhodes Scholar to figure that out . You don’t have to be a Rhodes Scholar to understand that the road to recovery from a great financial loss or loss of any kind is a painful one . You don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to recognise that in April 2007 Australians were relaxed and comfortable with $20billion surplus, borders secure and that now April 2011 Australia owing billions to China and Arabs ..paying millions monthly interest rates, illlegal asylum seekers brazenly, trashing, burning government facilities, and people smugglers doing roaring trade courtsey Gillard and Bowen policy failure. No you don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to figure out that a pack of Labor losers and bunch of misfits are running the country

    • nossy says:

      12:21pm | 30/04/11

      @Joan - hey Joaney have you got the number of Tony’s “Boat Phone” ?  hahahahahhhhhhh

    • CD says:

      01:30pm | 30/04/11

      @nossy…...is that it? Really?

      And you have the gall to have a go at others for non replies.

      The crown’s yours for a totally inane comment.

    • Chris L says:

      06:13pm | 30/04/11

      What dire stew/pickle/mess are we in Joan? Is record wealth and miniscule unemployment some sort of problem in disguise? Seriously, when is Australia going to start sinking into the water?

    • ifonly says:

      09:48am | 30/04/11

      I think the public does acknowledge that we were missed by the GFC. They credit this in part to China and part to the government spend. The problem is not the spend but the waste as they spent that is the problem.

      Few find fault with the initial hand out of $1500. Many find fault with an insulation program that led to deaths of inexperienced workers or a spend of $100m removing what was just put in. The government when challenged on school halls always says “I was out at .... and they were very happy”. You never hear a Labor pollie saying “I was out at… and they thought it was value for money”.

      The truth is Labor believes winning over the factions and caucus and you are a great success.  Salesmanship is a characteristic rarely valued by those on the left. As a consequence, Labor underestimated “little Johnny Howard” (the best parliamentary communicator at the time) just as they dismissed Abbott as “unelectable”.  I wonder if Thatcher or Reagan were to come along today would the left dismiss them as too unpopular or dumb to be elected and yet they knew what to say to their audience.

      That Abbott doesn’t go into detail to sell his message shows he knows he has to fit into a 20 second grab, not that he can’t.  That Julia and Wayne can’t sell what they did with schools and insulation or what they are going to do with a tax, and detainees shows that they can’t.

      The only way out of these policy cul-de-sacs is a complete change of policy. The only way to justify a complete change in direction is a new leader. The only value of a new leadership team is the ability to sell the message. Any new leader would probably have to be a woman.  Bring on Penny Wong, she could out green the Greens and still win Labor heartland

    • PJ says:

      03:10pm | 30/04/11

      Is that you Sophie ?

    • michael j says:

      04:37pm | 30/04/11

      @IFonly-we did not miss out on the GFC it is still happening ,you may have noticed every few months anther country goes bankrupted,America just printed 780 billion dollars to top up their war chest,and the Chinese are worried the massive amounts of assets they own in America,Australia and probably every country in the world may be defaulted on,,why does every one say we missed the GFC we may have delayed it,from over 20 billion ?in the bank to 50 billion debt? where did all that go ? unemployment is below 5% ha-ha , foreign owned mines-screaming for trade worker’s?,i have 4 mates 3 diesel fitters begging for jobs,,1 has had 6 months work on a fortnightly basis,the others were told we’ll ring you,,they are all under 45,, so what are these foreign owned mines up to? No houses being reposed at a much higher rate than before the GFC is just misleading,?in qld anyway,even tho interest rates are quite low,the cost of living and services seem to be almost out of control,,the only reason we did not experience immediate effects of GFC is IS Australian’s are not super greedy capitalists like yanks,, imagine going into a bank and asking if you can borrow $1,250 a week to buy a house but your only income is $750 a week and getting it?
      Tens if not hundreds ?of thousands of Americans have taken to living in cars and caravans late in life not because they want to they have to,,
      We have sold off huge tracts of farmland,residential buildings,and of course our mines to foreign investors,,That our 2 1/2 policy-making parties can distract us with things like he got knifed,,she lied ,,two party welfare reform by arguing who can make the most severe cuts and put the most people into poverty,at a time when Charities,and Churches are feeling the strain in the the food give away department,i see both main parties as being very cunning at distracting the Citizens of Australia from /=-he big issues with rather minor ones ,,No one in Federal government seems to be saying anythink about the fracking of coal in Queensland which might destroy a lot of the most productive farmland in Australia,
      nerer mind things could be worse ? the GFC could/might/will catch up with us and i don’t think we have enough paper to print up a trillion dollars,,,just have to find some more mines to sell off,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    • Steve says:

      05:30pm | 30/04/11

      St. Michael. Have you ever visited the blog by Peter Schiff? He can be a bit extreme but has the runs on the board for one of the few advisors who not only called the GFC beforehand even got the reasons right. He is very bullish on precious metals to ward off the worst of inflation caused by quatatative easing.

    • michael j says:

      08:10pm | 30/04/11

      @STEVE -just watched Peter Schiff 18/4 couldn’t get a later one,,good stuff
      that his comments warned about the danger of printing more cash and explained the reason why in a simple easy to understand manner is excellent ,,,That the $780 billion i refer to as war chest was this week ,,to go with $600 billion a month ago? Adds up to nervous Junk bond holders,his words,,means a pile of worthless paper in the Economic powerhouse vault (China) my words,, no wonder they are nervous about their investments,,,,I wonder why Australia signed the agreement with the USA involving ( CLUSTER BOMBS) recently ? I haven’t heard Bob Brown or Tony Abbot comment on this yet,,they must know of it , it was on the news,,? Considering Australia has been a vocal opponent of their use for at least 20 years i find it strange behaviour indeed,,,,,,,,,
      thanks for the tip on Peter Schiff,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    • michael j says:

      08:59pm | 30/04/11

      @Steve- just looked at a few more and was going through comments and was a bit surprised to find some calling for a first strike with nukes,, seems they think they can pull themselves out of the oven in a better position then they are in,,?,,,,,,,,,,I Doubt it ,,,,,,,,,,silver hit $48,,,hard to sell when it’s still glowing,,,,,,,,,,,,

    • St. Michael says:

      09:00pm | 30/04/11

      Schiff has a few good ideas, but he’s what’s known as a “gold bug”—he has, as the Native Americans say, an irrational love for the yellow metal that makes white men mad.

      Predicting the GFC wasn’t that hard with rudimentary research; our very own ABC did so via a documentary made roughly 6-12 months before it hit.  (Which goes to show how corrupt and/or incompetent the ratings agencies were, but that’s a separate issue.)

      And there is nothing intrinsic about gold that its price will forever go upward, or that it isn’t subject to the same “rubber band” of pricing—i.e., the further you go from the mean, the deeper and faster the reversion back to mean will inevitably be.  (Bearing in mind gold’s at double its mean value at present.)

      I suspect part of it is because of the urban myth that all currencies are backed by the gold held at Fort Knox.  Nixon shot Bretton Woods dead between the eyes; currency hasn’t been backed by the gold standard for just on 40 years now.  But for some reason gold still has its irrational (even for Wall Street) attraction beyond its actual benefits.  It does have advantages, I grant you—just not as many as gold bugs like Peter Schiff say it has, and many disadvantages that they won’t tell you about.

    • michael j says:

      10:14pm | 30/04/11

      @ ST Michael-i saw something on 60 mins/or dateline about the wonderful real estate deals the yanks were doing years ago,and the speculation that it would come to grief in a big way but i don’t think to many saw the effect on Europe with Country,after Country going bankrupt ,and maybe the possibly more to come,,,,maybe we were just lucky our bank’s did not play their game,,

    • St. Michael says:

      01:17am | 01/05/11

      @ michael j: As I’ve said elsewhere, the three things that kept Australia out of a recession or even the heaviest parts of the GFC were:
      (1) APRA;
      (2) The fact the RBA is independent of government; and
      (3) The fact the Chinese still kept on buying our iron ore.

      Absent any one of those factors and we’d have been in much deeper shit than we were.  So yes, we were very, very lucky.  Swan’s stimulus measures helped very little and I think prolonged the landing rather than softening it.

      The problem for Europe now is not that their toxic debt still exists, it’s entirely on the fact that the US cannot physically pay its government’s credit card without either printing trillions of US dollars or going on a wild oppressive spree of forcing people to invest in US bonds.

      Don’t even think they’ll cut their spending to the level it would take to solve the crisis; it means a 50% cut to US Federal spending across the boards.  The unions, the bureaucrats, and any moron who gets a government handout will scream blue murder rather than let it happen, because it hits their hip pocket first.  And US politicians are even more focus-group oriented and morally spineless than our lot are.

      And don’t count on the IMF coming in to bail out the US.  It’s not physically possible.  Nobody on the planet, IMF or otherwise, has enough money to refinance the US government’s debt, because it quite literally is the biggest credit card debt in the world.  Don’t count on China coming in to save the day; they’re locked into the US, but their economy is essentially a very large Ponzi scheme that depends on idiot US consumers to continue to run.  Don’t count on the “oil nations” to fix it, either; their currencies stand or fall by the US dollar, since the US buys most of their oil.

      It won’t be the end of the world.  Go and research any other situation where hyperinflation kicked off.  Historically hyperinflation tends to last roughly 12 years or so before people start having confidence in the currency again.  Either that, or the country involved declares war on someone which then fires up the economy again.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      10:07am | 30/04/11

      Labor’s big problem is in attempting to govern according to the dictates of the latest focus group.  Kenny’s right - they vacillate so much that they end upmnot standing for anything.

      The Opposition’s big problem is its policy-free, harping negativity - embodied in the unelectable Abbott.

      The Laberals all share the biggest problem for democracy in Australia - that their highest priority is attaining or retaining government for its own sake, and that there are no depths to which they won’t stoop in order to achieve it.

    • Tom says:

      11:52am | 30/04/11

      Oh CJ, “... their highest priority is attaining or retaining government for its own sake, and that there are no depths to which they won’t stoop in order to achieve it.” Breath taking hypocrisy old fella.

      Labor coined the phrase “whatever it takes”. They wrote the book on stooping.

      CJ, Nothing comes remotely close to Juliar’s disgraceful perjury to the electorate about not bringing in a carbon tax.  Truth means nothing to Labor.

    • Libby says:

      01:03pm | 30/04/11

      Oh Tom, how quickly you forgot about Howard’s ‘non core promises’.  How is Julia’s carbon tax backflip any different?

      CJ is right - they are both as bad as each other and they only care how to gain or retain power.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      01:10pm | 30/04/11

      Oh Tom, you need to read more carefully. I referred to “Laberals”, and my criticism in that regard applies to both Labor and Liberal.

      We get that you don’t like the proposed carbon tax, but Gillard hasn’t been any more dishonest than countless other Laberals.  When she had to form minority government, clearly compromises were made that wouldn’t be necessary if Labor had won outright.

      Which is a good thing for Australia, in my book - but only if Labor grows some collective balls and pushes the enabling legislation through in July.

    • Tom says:

      06:39pm | 30/04/11

      @CJ and Libby, the Hawker Britton “equivalence” thing just drones on. Every time Labor does something indefensible you all bleat “both sides do it”.

      @Libby, Howard took his big new tax to the electorate. Gillard did not. No equivalence there, toots. I find it staggering that you Labor types keep blathering that the two acts are somehow equivalent. Your only debating armoury it seems is to constantly bleat stupidhoods until people tire of correcting you.

      I repeat “Nothing comes remotely close to Juliar’s disgraceful perjury to the electorate about not bringing in a carbon tax.  Truth means nothing to Labor.”

    • CJ Morgan says:

      08:48pm | 30/04/11

      @ Tom:

      I don’t support either major party, and the fact that they both routinely renege on pre-election commitments is a major reason.  You forget that the whole idea of “core” and “non-core” promises came into Australian political parlance in describing John Howard’s mendacity.

      While I don’t support the Laberals, I do support action by Australia’s government of whatever persuasion to do something about reducing our greenhouse emissions, as a start to ameliorating the effects of AGW.  My only beef with the proposed carbon tax is that it doesn’t go far enough - but the government has flagged that its intention is that it will become the basis for an emissions trading scheme, which is in my view a positive action.

      While the Gillard government has reneged on the carbon tax, it has done so because its necessary alliance with the Greens and Independents demands that their views and policies be taken into account in government.  It’s also the right thing to do for the country and for the planet, so I’m not too fussed by yet another broken promise from a Laberal government.

      Lastly, may I suggest that your own “debating armoury” (sic) might be considerably strengthened if you were a little less abusive, and posted less “stupidhoods” (sic) yourself?  smile

    • Libby says:

      01:07am | 01/05/11

      @Tom, afraid I have to burst your bubble, I’m not a labor voter or labour apologist.  And I wasn’t referring to the GST.  How is it that you are unfamiliar with core and non core promises?
      What does get me worked up is when people unnecessarily ‘take sides’ and label contributions as inherently partisan whilst ignoring the actual point.  I also object to being referred to as “toots” but given how readily you resort to labels, I suppose I shouldn’t expect any better from you.

    • Knemon says:

      10:13am | 30/04/11

      Old mother hubbard
      went to the cupboard
      and found Julia Gillard

      The cupboards plain bare
      why swannie’s been there
      cried Jules with a shrill ‘ard

    • TimB says:

      11:20am | 30/04/11

      Lol! I’ve gotta give props to that one Knemon.

    • Dee says:

      02:54pm | 30/04/11

      TimB “give props” are you a gangstar rapper.

    • Seano says:

      10:14am | 30/04/11

      The big flaw in the two party system, the choice between and underperforming government and an opposition with zero ideas beyond negative sloganeering we are all being screwed.

      It’s a shame the Dems went under and the Greens whilst having some good ideas have attracted far too many loons. Still an underperforming Labor government is IMO better than any government lead by the devise policy vacuum that is Abbott.

    • Against the Man says:

      11:37am | 30/04/11

      So kindly tell us the numerous ideas and policy success we have from the Gilltard government. There are the current government right?

      You have 2 choices, tell us the ideas and achievements and justify them as the better government or not tell us and prove to us that you are full of it.

      Your choice. No tricks, just a straight forward proposition.

    • CD says:

      12:37pm | 30/04/11

      Re…..your last sentence. Why?

    • jf says:

      01:15pm | 30/04/11

      Fair comment Seano, except there is no point in spending time, money and resources on developing detailed policy when you are not in Government. That time is better spent applying scrutiny to and demanding accountability from the Government of the day.

      And this government is so bad, so morally corrupt, so vacuous, so fuelled by white hot hate and so cunningly ambitious that the holding them accountable and scrutinising their performance is a demanding and time-consuming job.

    • Seano says:

      04:46pm | 30/04/11

      @AtM - I’ve told you before i am not interested in debating a batshit crazy troll.

      @Ben - yes they are good a creating PDFs. I’m sure reason enough for some to vote for them. Let me surmarise them “Stop the boats, end the waste, repay the debt”.

      @CD - because it’s true.

      @jf - Ben says they have polices I see you realise his mistake. I have no problem with the government being scrutinised, I love living in a free democracy. My issue is that it is done in a completely negative and devisive way which is reliant on slogans and propoganda rather than pointing out the real flaws that might be there.

      The opposition lead by Abbott has nothing to offer.

    • Ben81 says:

      07:02pm | 30/04/11

      “Ben says they have polices I see you realise his mistake.”

      http://www.liberal.org.au/Policies.aspx

      No, I’m pretty damn sure I’m right and you’re playing games.  Go ahead and rip them apart and shit all over them if you want, you trying to say that they don’t exist though is plain stupid/lazy, pick one.

    • Against the Man says:

      07:13pm | 30/04/11

      HaHa Seano, I knew you were full of it.

      I’m grading you an F, Mr. School Teacher. Imagine if your students said, ‘Sorry Mr Neve we are not doing your assignments, because you are a terrible teacher.’

      Thanks dude, for a second I thought you would call my bluff. ATM scores big time, I bet the ALP loonies are hunting you down John, you are making them look bad!

      Sweet! smile

    • jf says:

      07:51pm | 30/04/11

      Seano says: 04:46pm | 30/04/11

      And as you can see from Ben’s link that they do indeed.

      What I in fact said was “developing detailed policy”. Whist I was less than literal and had perhaps lapsed into a little bit of hyperbole, I had credited you with enough integrity and intelligence to understand what I put in “detailed”. To be a little clearer, I had meant that it is the government’s role to take policy and implement it. The opposition, of course, do not have to spend time on the implementation - their time will come and you can scrutinise your arse off. I am confident that there will be some that won’t be able to be implemented to the extent that they would have liked or intended. Just like with any government, things change.

      But this government has either completely failed to implement or, when they have it has either been a financial disaster or people have died. What a government when their greatest success is early failure. What a government when hubris sets in within one term, what a government when the only credit they can take is for reforms and policy introduced by the previous government.

    • Seano says:

      10:27pm | 30/04/11

      @Ben - What’s lazy is lot post links to LNP website and claim to have won the argument. Especially when those links are to a large number of fairly vague PDFs. I’m not about to do your homework for you. Abbott proposed little in detail that isn’t “Stop the boats, end the waste, repay the debt”?

      @jf - So you’re claiming that they don’t have to have detailed policies but Ben’s links are proof of detail? A PDF with a largely meaningless bunch of tables does not constitute detail.

      http://www.liberal.org.au/~/media/Files/Policies and Media/Economy/Australias Future Policy.ashx

      I’m sure besides PDF’s they’re good at creating powerpoint presentations too, it’s hardly detail. The ALP had “no policies” shoved down their throat for 11 years during Howard’s reign when they had policies containing similar amounts of “detail” but the supports of the LNP often play to a different standard.

      Personally I think whoever is in opposition should be providing a detailed alternative because they should able to take over the government tomorrow if need be. Clearly the LNP aren’t ready.

      When it comes to the federal election I will evaluate and make my decision based on what all the majors have to offer. Exactly as I did in the NSW election. I’m more inclined to vote Labor or independent because I sit centre left on many issues, that does not mean I wont look to the alternatives. But I will never consider any party lead by Tony Abbott, the man offers devision instead of vision.

      @AtM - Nope, still not interested in debating a batshit crazy troll. There’s nothing you can say that will change that position, however desperate you are for my attention.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:31am | 01/05/11

      What argument Seano?  You say they have no policies, all I did is show you that you’re clearly wrong.  As for them being ‘vague’, i’m not sure what more you want from them than specific pledges, reasoning and costings.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:13am | 01/05/11

      Sorry Seano, very childish answer but you have proven my point. You are scared of me and you know I’ve got you in a corner.

      Nice win for me.

      You have lost all credibility Mr.Teacher. Time to give up HaHaHa

    • jf says:

      09:57am | 01/05/11

      Seano says:10:27pm | 30/04/11

      @Seano

      “So you’re claiming that they don’t have to have detailed policies but Ben’s links are proof of detail?”

      Despite crediting you with the intelligence to understand my original point and the integrity to debate the contextyou continue to harp on the form rather than the substance. There’s twits on both sides of the political spectrum, particularly on Punch. Don’t be one of them Seano.

      “A PDF with a largely meaningless bunch of tables does not constitute detail.”

      So what does Seano? How would you like the opposition, or anyone for that matter, to present their policy.

      This is how the ALP do it http://www.alp.org.au/australian-labor/our-platform/ - lots of pds there.

      The Greens http://greens.org.au/policies - more pdfs.

      Family First http://www.familyfirst.org.au/Policies.htm - hmm, more pdfs.

      Socialist Alliance - more pdfs.

      Australian Sex Party - yet more pdfs.

      Shooter’s Party - pdfs.

      Independents - no policies to speak of for Boby Katter, Tony Windsor, Tony Crook or Rob Oakeshott but plenty of self-promotion though (Oakeshott’s includes a handy print-friendly version though (in as new condition I note)).

      Andrew Wilkie does have policy including such gems as “Schools must be adequately funded according to need and not according to whether or not they are publicly or privately operated. Teachers must be trained and employed in such numbers to provide an effective learning environment for all students, as well as reasonable support, lesson preparation time, rest and professional development for the teachers themselves.” Well knock me down with a feather. What a thinker, what a revolutionary.

      In fact the only party that doesn’t present their ‘policy’ in pdf format is One Nation - perhaps their form of policy suits you better.

      All jokes aside, I can’t think of a better way to present policy to the voting public than writing it down, whether that is pdf, html or any other form. It is the substance that counts and ultimately, if you are in Government, the implementation.

      We can both disagree with the substance of either sides policies but there can be no argument that the policies of our current Government, good, bad or indifferent don’t count for a pinch of shit because they have universally and to a policy either failed to deliver or bungled it so badly that Australia will almost certaintly suffer a decade of economic and social underperformance.

      “The ALP had “no policies” shoved down their throat for 11 years during Howard’s reign when they had policies containing similar amounts of “detail” but the supports of the LNP often play to a different standard.”

      I’m sure that you were defending the Labor Party on a similar basis over those wonderful, prosperous, happy eleven years. So who is it exactly that is playing to a different standard?

      “Personally I think whoever is in opposition should be providing a detailed alternative because they should able to take over the government tomorrow if need be.”

      I agree, and I believe that they have provided sufficient detail to be able to take charge if/when Tony Windsor finally finds his lost integrity.

      When it comes to the federal election I will evaluate and make my decision based on what all the majors have to offer.

      Oh please Seano.

      “Exactly as I did in the NSW election.”

      Do you live in NSW Seano? Really?

      “But I will never consider any party lead by Tony Abbott, the man offers devision instead of vision.”

      How so exactly Seano?

    • Ryan says:

      12:58pm | 01/05/11

      @Seano: possibly you should save face on this one and just admit you were wrong for a change.

    • Seano says:

      02:48pm | 01/05/11

      @Ben - what policies? The first link I looked at was a bunch of meaningless tables and figures that is supposed to represent Australian’s future. They have a term for this in the corporate world; it’s called “busy work”. Meaningless guff but it looks like you’re doing something so that you can keep your job.

      @AtM - Nope not interested now, not interested in the future. You had your chance to be a grown up but clearly your tin foil hat kept slipping.

      @jf - mate you know where you can stick your comments about intelligence etc. Turn them sideways first.

      But funny how you talk about not understanding someone’s point and then you go off on a rambling rant demonstrating that you clearly didn’t understand what I had to say.

      I’ll break it down for you. You can’t seem to decide whether oppositions should or should have detailed policies. I say they should. Regardless of party, particularly the majors in a two party system and even more particularly when there’s a hung parliament and the opposition could be asked to form government if a couple of MP decide to jump ship, they need to be ready to hit the ground running. Abbott couldn’t even get his budget figures right at the last election, but apparently he’s not expected to by his supporters.

      Much like the LNP you are vacillating, they have no detailed policy but you’re now happy to accept their vague empty sloganeering and largely meaningless PDFs as detailed policy because it suits your argument better.

      “Do you live in NSW Seano? Really? “

      Yes and I voted LNP. As I said before the election I would. I said would not vote ALP, I said I would consider O’Farrell if he changed his stance on ethics classes (he did) and he released some policies (his plan for the M5 and transport). And if he and his party are making head way at the next election I will back up because I think the issues in NSW will require a long time to fix. But I am concerned that entrenching one party in NSW for the long term and then doing the same to the next is part of the problem so (and I’ve said this a number of times on this blog) the best result might be a succession of short term governments until we get one full of talented, hardworking people who are there for the betterment of NSW and not for their own personal ambition.

      “How so exactly Seano? “

      Tony Abbott, divisive, lacking in vision, no ideas, no history of delivery on major issues (didn’t exactly sort out health during his long tenure) and a nasty bastard to boot.

    • Seano says:

      02:49pm | 01/05/11

      @Ryan - possibly could make a contribution as challenging as that might be.

    • jf says:

      05:39pm | 01/05/11

      Seano says:
      02:48pm | 01/05/11

      “@Ben - what policies? The first link I looked at was a bunch of meaningless tables and figures that is supposed to represent Australian’s future. They have a term for this in the corporate world; it’s called “busy work”. Meaningless guff but it looks like you’re doing something so that you can keep your job.”

      Just because they are inconvenient to your party line of Mr No doesn’t mean that they are meaningless or guff. How about you debate them mate; instead of just dismissing them because they make a lie of the only possible charge against Abbott.

      “@jf - mate you know where you can stick your comments about intelligence etc. Turn them sideways first.”

      Oh, I have no doubt that you are intelligent Seano. That is why I had credited you with the intelligence etc… However, your bloody-minded hatred of Tony Abbott and your complete unwillingness to recognize pertinent points of the other side’s debate and to ignore facts that are inconvenient to your point of view somewhat blunt that undoubtedly sharp mind.

      What a waste of a keen intellect.

      “But funny how you talk about not understanding someone’s point and then you go off on a rambling rant demonstrating that you clearly didn’t understand what I had to say.”

      Oh I understood it. However, let me break down for you what I had thought was not necessary to spell out in detail.

      I agree that they should have detailed policies. The point of difference between the Government and the opposition is that the opposition also has an obligation to hold the government accountable. As the opposition is not in government, it is not unnecessary and unrealistic for them to continually have them at implementation readiness. Taking policies from policy to implementation is the Government’s job and, whilst they are doing that (while in Government) the opposition is scrutinising the government. I have already conceded that my original point was clumsy (a concession we’ll never, ever hear from you). No doubt this one is as well. In short though, the Government and the Opposition have different roles. You know as well as anyone how those roles differentiate. For you to continue to harp on this point is tedious, repetitive and demonstrates that you will harp on about the form so that you don’t have to worry about the substance.

      “Yes and I voted LNP.”

      I don’t believe you.

      “Tony Abbott, divisive, lacking in vision, no ideas, no history of delivery on major issues (didn’t exactly sort out health during his long tenure) and a nasty bastard to boot.”
      Not really any specifics there Seano. More of a translation of “I’m rubber, you’re glue and you’re mean”.

      My rebuttal, he has vision, he has plenty of ideas, he has a history of delivering on major issues and he’s a nice bloke.

      Now, I’m not resonding any more on this thread. You’ll harp on about trivialities, breathless to have the last word, until your fingers bleed.

      So mate, the last word is yours. I’m certain that you’ll take it as a sign off defeat. Perhaps it is. Just like when my seven year old says “why not’ just enough and gets what she wants.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:05pm | 01/05/11

      Is that your best reply Mr Teacher Seano?

      Pleeeeeaassssssseee…....you are the laughing-stock of The Punch forum. Hell I’m embarrassed for you. Dude you lack insight.

      You can’t answer my questions and are scared to do so. Don’t act like you don’t want to, everyone can see I have you running scared and it isn’t just me alone.

      Seano has zero credibility on this forum. It is official smile

    • Ben81 says:

      06:12pm | 01/05/11

      I probably should have known better than to bother with captain stubborn here again, not that it isn’t a bit of fun and I’ll do it again next time.

      It’s getting a bit sad now on this one though, I sure hope Seano never has anything to say about Liberal party policies given that he can’t bring himself to concede the plainly obvious fact that they even exist in the first place.

    • Ryan says:

      10:57pm | 01/05/11

      @Seano: apparently! Just trying to help you out there mate!

    • Seano says:

      11:08pm | 01/05/11

      @AtM - So not interested in bat shit crazy trolls.

      @Ben - dude you can pretend that meaningless tables of figures represent policy but try and implement one of these.

    • Ben81 says:

      02:30pm | 02/05/11

      You’re an idiot Seano, you really are.  DIdn’t want to resort to an insult but damn, you can’t really be this dense and have to be trolling, right?
      I think i’ll just leave this one here…

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:23am | 30/04/11

      I love “counter-factuals”.  Consider this one. In 575 CE, the Sassanid Empire does not send help to relieve the Seige of Mecca by the Kingdom of Axum and Muhammad grows up under the Cross. Islam becomes just another sect of Christianity, if it occurs at all.
      What were we talking about? Oh, Labor and Liberals. Does anyone seriously think there is much difference between them? Both support middle to upper class welfare, both support relatively high immigration, both have talentless leaders. Choosing between them is like choosing between arsenic and hemlock.

    • TimB says:

      11:23am | 30/04/11

      Perhaps Shane. But there’s at least one big difference that matters IMO.

      The Liberals don’t cock up everything they attempt and drag down the country in the process. Labor do.

    • St. Michael says:

      05:24pm | 30/04/11

      @ TimB: Well, unless you’re talking about the first Menzies government.  By the time the voters kicked Menzies out, he’d variously engaged in a Chamberlain-style policy of appeasement, sent iron to Imperial Japan (ever heard the old nickname for him “Pig Iron Bob”? Ask your granddad about it sometime.), and signed over most of Australia’s armed forces to steam for Britain leaving us defenceless here.  Read Peter Fitzsimons’ “Kokoda” sometime, it’s rather enlightening.  It took what remained of John Curtin’s life to dig us out of that one.

      Oh, and that’s not counting when Menzies got back in and gave Winston Churchill permission to test atomic bombs in the outback without going to, y’know, cabinet, or, y’know, the Australian people first.

    • michael j says:

      06:24pm | 30/04/11

      @Shane-Isnt Christ one of the most Revered Prophets in Islam,,i know its not the same as being in a 1/3 partner- ship as boss but it is still a pretty good hedged bet,,
      Im putting some money on the Mud-crabbers to take a seat or two ,once people realise they want protect mangroves not cut them down they’ll look good,,early,,,but it could be a couple of Greens lost,,

    • Chris L says:

      06:26pm | 30/04/11

      @TimB - oftentimes it’s because they don’t even make an attempt. The BER may well have been overpriced, the NBN may end up the same way, but these contributions will be invaluable.

      There are some things the Coalition does better(encourage business for one) but there are also some things Labor does better (infrastructure as an example).

      I’ll be happy to go back to a Coalition government some time in the near future, I just hope that someone better than Abbott is at the helm at the time. I’m sure he’s a very intelligent and driven man, but his record as the health minister and his tendency to change his stance at the whim of the people (the same attribute you would criticize Gillard for) leads me to distrust him.

    • Rosie says:

      10:42am | 30/04/11

      Good article in that you have explained the position the Rudd/Gillard Labor has got themselves into. It has only worsen with the Gillard Labor Minority Govt.

      It is good that Mark Kenny has realized that the job of Opposition is to criticiize and make the Govt accountable. The media then leaves it to the public to decide whether the criticizism is credible or not.

      Goodness sake Mark, you should know that politicians would never say a straight out “yes” or “no” because the hidden agenda are “votes” and thus the reason we hear them preaching the same thing constantly. The poor public, it is not enough hearing it from politicians, it is then repeated by the media.

      If Wayne Swan & Penny Wong came clean in the beginning that it would have been impossible to go from deficit to surplus by 2013 because of the GFC etc etc we the public may have been critical but would have had to understand. Then it was up to the Govt to show us that they were trying to achieve a surplus by 2013. That is how to win votes. Instead all that we have heard from Swan was; “committed to a surplus by 2013.” They tried to convince us that by hook or crook they were going to make it happen.

      Tony Abbot and the Coalition would have certainly carried on like big fat greasy pork chops but hey that is what they are there for. However, we must also remember, the desperation of oppositions to take the Govt out in the next elections. You can’t do much in Opposition! Lately, there hasn’t been much said about Tony Abbott’s trip to Alice Springs to talk to the Aboriginal elders. I was very impressed because it now seems someone in his position is finally listening and understands what needs to be done to narrow the gap between them and us. It will be a long difficult task but at least we have a starting point.

      If the Govt had details about the carbon tax, mining tax, asylum seekers etc etc Tony Abbott and the Coalition might have to think in great detail of a better counter-attack than to just settle for solgans, sit back and allow this Govt to self destruct which they are doing very nicely.

      PS the wedding was just spectacular, all of yesterday was a worry free day, no politics but extremely happy for 2 wonderful people that will only make this world a much better place. OK I was even happy for Gillard and Tim and my only criticism was that she could have worn something else instead of the off white jacket. We see her always in “jackets” and was waiting to see her out of one for the lavish wedding.

    • Chris L says:

      06:29pm | 30/04/11

      Are you the same Rosie that posts regularly here? You just seem a bit uncharacteristically reasonable and there was no bitter spit at the “atheist Gillard”.

    • nossy says:

      07:25pm | 30/04/11

      @Rosie - absolute bollocks Rosie - poor Paul Kelly is off with the pixies - the Labor summation of Abbott is spot on - unelectable period !

    • Rosie says:

      08:02pm | 30/04/11

      Yes Chris L its the me that Rosie.

      Have no fear, after the royal wedding my heart is full of nothing but happiness for everyone that said nothing but positivity about the grandeur splendor, the credible couple and everyone involved who were careful to avoid doing wrong. It was perfect and as I said before no nation could do it better than the British.

      It is not the time to make ill of anyone and all I can say it was a pity Australia wasn’t represented by someone like Tony Abbott, the conservative, pro marriage in the eyes of God and pro monarchist. Kudos to Tony Abbott because while Gillard was mixing it with the elites, he was in Alice Springs sitting in the dirt with some of the nation’s most damaged communities. ( I have quoted Paul Kelly )

      To me what was more touching than anything was the bride’s family, the fact she didn’t come from a broken home and was well supported by her parents, brother and sister. Something very much lacking in today’s society. I am certain Prince William’s father and the Queen would have been touched, considering Prince Charles was a divorcee and so was Princess Ann and Prince Andrew. As Prince Charles said his family was blessed to have Kate into the family and welcomed her very much.

      Also I think I have wasted too much energy on Julia Gillard’s personal status and after reading Mark Kenny’s article and Paul Kelly’s in today’s Australian “Abbott drives home the wedge” I am more inclined to debate what I know is to be the facts eg like Australians want to see some concrete evidence that the Gillard Minority Labor Govt is actually doing good things for this country.

    • Dave C says:

      10:55am | 30/04/11

      Whether you are in favour of a carbon tax or not the reason why Abbott is all over Gillard on this is the way the thing was announced.

      Gillard said there would be no carbon tax before the election, she had lobbied Rudd to drop the issue before she became PM before that. Then after the election Gillard was photographed with the Greens announcing a tax on carbon pollution leading to a CPRS fullstop. No specific tax rate or specific carbon price, no scenarios no examples of how it would work no compensation announced fullstop. Then Abbott does his job and tells everyone why its a bad policy and why you should vote for him instead (just like ALP leaders said NO to the GST, Iraq War or Work Choices but for some reason they were not criticised for saying NO all the time) Since then we still dont know the tax rate or carbon price, we still havent been given some scenarios as to what will cost more and what wont and we still dont know who will be compensated or by how much. Is it any wonder the policy is on the nose with the punters as well as Gillard herself?

      When the GST was announced the rate was announced and the details of which existing taxes would be cut aqnd where the revenue would be going, then we had an election to vote on the issue and then the final bits were negotiated with the dems and then it went to the parliamentary vote. You may not have liked it but you knew before the election what it was and the actual rate.

      Maybe when the details do get announced Abbott will have to work much harder and things might turn around for the ALP, otherwise this policy will be the ALP’s Workchoices, and we all know what happened to the party that bought that policy in dont we?

    • Steve Putnam says:

      11:14am | 01/05/11

      The Howard Government made no mention of its intention to follow Bush into Iraq or Workchoices prior to an election. Despite this, the AWB continued bribing Iraq to buy our wheat even after war had been declared and under the nose of Downer.
      To make matters worse the Liberals then wasted $100million of taxpayers money on an advertising campaign that told the public nothing about Workcoices and as a sum represented nearly seven times the total amount spent by the Hawke /Keating governments on advertising in its thirteen year history. No wonder the Labor opposition said no to both.

    • Dave C says:

      05:09pm | 01/05/11

      In fairness Steve, at the 2001 election no one knew that the Iraq war was even going to happen. We had just followed the USA into Afghanistan so any voter in 2001 would think that if they voted for Howard then we would follow the Americans into their next conflict.

      As for work choices, Howard, Costello and Minchin were on the record years before 2004 preaching IR reform. But you are correct they said nothing before the election then bought it in and then were voted OUT big time 3 years later.

      My point was not that the ALP opposition said NO to both, thats their job to say that the LNP polices are not right for Australia Its that the same ALP harp on at Abbott for apposing a Carbon Tax or NBN because he believes its not right for the country and Abbott is somehow labled negative by the ALP and all the left wing commentators every day.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:08am | 30/04/11

      Mark. You are exactly the person who should be shouting “Peak Oil”. You are letting us down and history will remember your profession for mankinds greatest let down. Where is your article on peak oil? Nothing else matters.

    • Mikko says:

      11:27am | 30/04/11

      Hey Mark,  re: “Such is Labor’s dilemma. The economy’s ebullience through the dark days of the GFC was in no small part down to the Government’s insightful approach to the crisis in late 2008”. Er, that wouldn’t have anything to do with the huge surplus they inherited, would it? As for their great programs, the money wasted on the bungled pink batts program alone, by the time they finish rectifying the damage done, would have paid for Queensland’s flood repair bill. Overpriced school halls, cash handouts to dead people’s estates, their dogs or cats if they happened to be beneficiaries, prisoners and people living overseas all proved they can’t manage our tax dollars. The current fiasco over refugee centres and the carbon tax only provide further proof of a rudderless government.

    • Catching up says:

      11:31am | 30/04/11

      Abbott and his party’s continual talking the economy down cannot be denied. 

      The Opposition did not argue against money being spent during the crisis.  They argued about who the money should have went to.  They believed that only the wealthy are entitled to any government bounties.  The route they would have taken was tax cuts, that always benefit the better off. 

      The economy suffers in two ways during a downturn.  There is a lowering of receipts and extra cost that arise through higher unemployed. 
      The deficit is caused by more than the government spending money. 

      Whose plan was the better can be argued until the cows come home.  What is fact is that our economy has come through with few scars and most have dodged the bullets the world economic downturn aimed at us.

      We have also come through nation wide floods of a magnitude that this country has not seen in decades.  Most states were hit, Queensland the worst.  Our summer food crops were wiped out by deluge from the sky.

      The public experience a rise in food prices, and the middle east troubles meant higher petrol prices.  Neither are a result of mismanagement by the government.  The government was faced once again with reduced receipts and massive increase in outlays. 

      We also have been hit somewhat by the disasters in Japan.  How badly, we will have to wait and see.  Our car industry is already suffering some backlash from the destruction of the Japanese car industry. 

      One rise we have is in electricity, this is one that can governments of all types over the last few decades can take some responsibility for.

    • Rosie says:

      12:10pm | 30/04/11

      Where did you come from making you still trying to catch up to all of us??????

      Nosthow - it is another wonder Julia is the “bestest” ( if there was such a word ) than Tony Abbott as the preferred PM when you have people like Catching Up way behind and trying deperately to catch up to the rest of us.

      “Oh what a tangled web we weave” or whatever the saying is!

    • nossy says:

      01:05pm | 30/04/11

      @Rosie - have you been drinking sweet Rosie ?  hahahahahah

    • Dee says:

      01:06pm | 30/04/11

      Is it true that no one really like Tony or Julia. Are the poles wrong. I for one dont like any of the political groups in Australia. Labor are not for the people and neither are the Liberals. Both are just as bad as each other. Can somone tell me how many paying members are in each party? My guess would be less than 1 percent of Australians.

    • Paulb says:

      01:28pm | 30/04/11

      The people of Poland are rarely wrong.

    • jf says:

      01:28pm | 30/04/11

      Yesterday I made a comment to the effect that previously rusted-on, one-eyed Labor supporters were critical of the party and the best that even those that despise Abbott (for the most superficial of reasons i.e. he wears budgie smugglers whilst volunteering as a surf lifesaver ) could say in support of the Labor Government was “sure we’re ordinary but so are you guys”.

      It seems that there may have been more to that than Nossy was prepared to accept:

      John A Neve says:
      06:25am | 30/04/11
      “Labor no longer represents the workers and the Liberal coalition certainly does not represent small business.”

      CJ Morgan says:
      10:07am | 30/04/11
      “Labor’s big problem is in attempting to govern according to the dictates of the latest focus group.”  “The Opposition’s big problem is its policy-free, harping negativity - embodied in the unelectable Abbott.”

      Seano says:
      10:14am | 30/04/11
      “The big flaw in the two party system, the choice between and underperforming government and an opposition with zero ideas beyond negative sloganeering we are all being screwed.”

      Even Perse, whilst admittedly getting her facts a bit wrong, was conceding that lower taxes are “an achievement” although she has now, like a true Party Loyalist, back-flipped on that particular comment and now claims that not only is not true but that she didn’t say it.

      Well done guys – the first step is recognising that you have a problem.

    • Seano says:

      04:47pm | 30/04/11

      Well the problem I have recognised with this government is that they have an inability to explain/sell good ideas and have therefore let Abbott make head way with empty negativity.

    • Chris L says:

      07:26pm | 30/04/11

      JF, constructive criticism is a good thing and is an important part of our political system (the very role of the opposition). I don’t see anything bad about saying our representatives could do better. Are you truly of the belief that criticism should be silenced? That acknowledging faults is a weakness or an admission of failure? Would you truly follow the Coalition regardless of their quality and direction?

      How amusing that you accuse others of being rusted-on yet seem to find the idea of dissention so offensive.

    • jf says:

      07:40pm | 30/04/11

      “good ideas”

      Name one.

      “have therefore let Abbott make head way with empty negativity”

      I used to play a lot of tennis. Whenever I played against someone who was really, really bad, my game would get very basic. You’re a sportsman Seano, I think you understand what I’m getting at.

    • Seano says:

      10:04pm | 30/04/11

      “Name one.”

      NBN. Note I’m not interested in rhetoric on this issue, the NBN is an important piece of infrastructure.

      “Whenever I played against someone who was really, really bad, my game would get very basic. You’re a sportsman Seano, I think you understand what I’m getting at.”

      Yes absolutely, you needed to step up to in class improve your game.

    • jf says:

      10:12am | 01/05/11

      Chris L says:07:26pm | 30/04/11

      “JF, constructive criticism is a good thing ” “I don’t see anything bad about saying our representatives could do better.”

      Agree. Where have I said otherwise?

      “Are you truly of the belief that criticism should be silenced?”

      Absolutely not. Where have I said or even inferred that?

      “Would you truly follow the Coalition regardless of their quality and direction?”

      Of course not. However, as they by and large represent my political, social and economic philosophy they would have to be pretty bad for me to change my vote. And that is exactly my point. Even those that feel that same way about the Labor Party as I do about the coalition are turning away - that is how bad they are.

      “How amusing that you accuse others of being rusted-on yet seem to find the idea of dissention so offensive.”

      I am indeed “rusted-on” and intend for it to be a pejorative term. “How amusing” that you feel that being called a rusted-on Labor supporter as pejorative - perhaps you aren’t so convinved of your convictions as you profess. “How amusing” that you could interpret my observation that Labor Party loyalists are turning away as somehow advocating censoring of debate. “How amusing” that someone professing tolerance and broadmindedness would use such a patronising term to object to their, astonishingly incorrect, objection to another’s point of view. “

    • jf says:

      10:32am | 01/05/11

      Seano says:10:04pm | 30/04/11

      “NBN. Note I’m not interested in rhetoric on this issue, the NBN is an important piece of infrastructure.”

      No rhetoric mate. I agree that communications infrastructure is very important to our nation.

      However, this is not the way to do it. Not when it is going to mean that regional centres (even centres quite close to capital cities) will have worse communications infrastructure than they already have.

      Not when mobile phone and wireless internet reception is unavailable within short distance from capital cities (less than one hour drive) and very short (10minute drive) from major regional centres (eg Gold Coast).

      Not when the trend is towards wireless.

      And certainly not at the astonishing cost to each man, woman and child in the country. Certainly when the US is going to be able to do this at zero capital cost to the taxpayer and with service delivery charges significantly lower. Cost matters Seano. Every cent that the government spends impacts on inflation which impacts on every citizen’s cost of living (most of all on the poor and vulnerable). Every cent that the government spends must come from a taxpayer. Every cent that the government spends on profects that industry could provide costs proportionally more, is delivered less efficiently and ultimately costs more for less.

      Seano, I believe that your intentions are good. You present thoughtful and measured argument on most issues. However, this government is just no good. They don’t understand risk or commerce (only one person in the cabinet has industry experience). They are filled with ambitious, spiteful haters. They can’t stand that someone would work hard, put their capital at risk and develop a productive enterprise and be rewarded for it. They truly believe that they are intellectual betters and the elite that we should all pay for their indulgences as long as they are excluded. They are are no good for the economy and they are no good for our society.

      If they were ideologically driven, you could forgive them. Hawke and Keating had ideology and they introduced some very sound reform and policy initiatives (although they took the cowardly route on GST).

      Howard and Costello believed in what they were doing (and introduced some bad policy).

      Even the disastrous Whitlam introduced some important reform.

      However, these guys are so utterly bad that you cannot support them.

      If you care about the poor and the vulnerable, you will not support these guys. The damage to our society from their bad ideas and their blunders will cost them dearly - more so than the rich that they despise. Even less so the very rich, because they will go to Singapore and Hong Kong and the US and even South Africa where industry and risk-taking is rewarded and respected.

    • Seano says:

      02:21pm | 01/05/11

      Oh please how is adding infrastructure going to making communications in regional centres worse? Only a party hack could not see through such a transparent piece of rhetoric.

      “Not when the trend is towards wireless. “

      It’s not about trend it’s about viability. Australia is too geographically large to make a wireless network of this magnitude viable. And we do not have the critical mass of users to ever do this at zero cost to the tax payer. This is a matter of either the government stumps up the cash and builds it or it doesn’t happen. The world economy is going to become more and more tied to the internet and we risk being left behind without the infrastructure. The LNPs laissez faire approach would never deliver an NBN, we don’t have the people.

      “only one person in the cabinet has industry experience”

      How is that ever a measure of whether you can run a government? And how many LNP MPs are either lawyers or career pollies? This is another example of the double standards used by conservatives for measuring the performance of the two parties.

      “They are filled with ambitious, spiteful haters. “

      And you don’t think that this comment could be used to describe any number of LNP MPs? FFS it could be on Tony Abbott’s business card T. Abbott: Ambitious, spiteful hater MP.

      “However, these guys are so utterly bad that you cannot support them.  “

      The NBN is an important piece of infrastructure that we would not get under the LNP. They are leading a minority government and keeping to their commitment to return to surplus even though many governments in this situation would be tempted to pork barrel. With no reasonable or sensible alternative I think they are doing a reasonable job. Of course they need to stop stuffing up and sell their successes better. But most of all they need to stop giving Abbott a free ride.

      “If you care about the poor and the vulnerable, you will not support these guys. “

      And the alternative is an opposition lead by Abbott who wants to fairly arbitrarily cut people off from the dole regardless of their circumstance. Who wants to force people to move away from their families and even their skill base so that we can get our low unemployment figures even lower? You are kidding.

    • jf says:

      03:50pm | 01/05/11

      Seano says:

      02:21pm | 01/05/11

      “Oh please how is adding infrastructure going to making communications in regional centres worse? Only a party hack could not see through such a transparent piece of rhetoric.”

      I agree that you would think that a communications infrastructure project costing at best $42bn dollars (and that is with some pretty creative accounting) would provide better coverage.
      And you may accuse me of being a party hack, which I’m not. But, I’m gunna be.

      However, my information didn’t come from either party; it came from the ABC. http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3200228.htm

      “How is that ever a measure of whether you can run a government?”

      And there you have it. Simple mate, if the government is made up of people that have sucked on the public tit all their lives, who don’t understand how foreign exchange rates work because they’ve never paid for a single one of their many overseas trips in their lives, who don’t understand commercial risk and reward because they’ve never had the guts to put their own capital at risk then you have to question their ability to understand how things work and empathise with the millions of people that don’t have a guaranteed, public-funded job to rely on. 

      You reckon you can run a liberal, democratic, free-market economy without industry experience? On this, I think that we’ll simply have to disagree. I just can’t see how a Government can manage an economy, any economy, without practical, real-life, hands-on experience.

      “And how many LNP MPs are either lawyers or career pollies?

      If by lawyers, you mean lawyers that worked for a party that is deeply aligned with a political party then the answer is zero

      This is another example of the double standards used by conservatives for measuring the performance of the two parties.”

      That’s simply bullshit Seano. Every single member of the shadow cabinet had some form of commercial or industry experience prior to becoming a politician. A couple more than others and a three came from industry groups.  Most of the lawyers in the Government’s cabinet came from either Slater and Gordon or Maurice Blackburn, firms with deep ties to the ALP. Let me know one lawyer from the LNP (one is all I need) that worked for a firm with any political ties at all.

      “And you don’t think that this comment could be used to describe any number of LNP MPs? FFS it could be on Tony Abbott’s business card T. Abbott: Ambitious, spiteful hater MP.”

      No, I don’t. There’s stuff that I don’t agree with on Abbott on but I believe that he is a decent, considerate, compassionate man. You have a deep, pathological hatred of many of the things he stands for (like you I am no fan of the RC Church) and you are blinded by it. I would like you to tell me one thing that he has done that would mark him as spiteful or as a hater. Sure, he’s ambitious (I reckon most pollies) are but he is not blindingly, selfishly ambitious like the Shorten’s, Gillard’s, Swan’s, Rudd’s, Combet’s and Bowen’s of the world (to name just a few).

      “The NBN is an important piece of infrastructure that we would not get under the LNP.”

      Rubbish. It is a massive, expensive white elephant that will be technologically obsolete before it is completed.

      “They are leading a minority government and keeping to their commitment to return to surplus even though many governments in this situation would be tempted to pork barrel.”

      Return to surplus – I sincerely doubt it. And they wouldn’t have a surplus to have to return to if they were any sort of government. 

      “And the alternative is an opposition lead by Abbott who wants to fairly arbitrarily cut people off from the dole regardless of their circumstance.”

      That’s not true Seano. You must be getting desperate if you have to make up lies to make a point. Also, there’s some pretty savage criticism of the Government’s dole policy, mainly from the left.

      “Who wants to force people to move away from their families and even their skill base so that we can get our low unemployment figures even lower? You are kidding.”

      I just don’t understand what you trying to say here. Many regional centres have significant levels of unemployment and that is before you consider the underemployed particularly the self-employed underemployed. But that doesn’t really matter to someone who’s sucked on the public tit all their life, whether as a party hack, party lawyer or union rep.

    • Chris L says:

      06:18pm | 01/05/11

      @JF, when people point out the flaws in both parties you make the assumption that they are loyal Labor followers and that their only “defence” is to say the other side is bad too.

      This is where it appears you consider balanced criticism to be a bad thing. After all, it apparently gives you some sort of gloating rights as someone who never questions or critically assess your own side. Could it not be possible that they are simply pointing out the flaws in both parties? Is this concept of a balanced view so alien to you it cannot be true?

      “perhaps you aren’t so convinved of your convictions as you profess”

      I never professed such convictions. I simply view both sides critically. This is not some twisted form of endorsement for the Coalition, it simply is the act of viewing both sides critically.

      PS, I honestly did find the dichotomy amusing. If you find that patronising, fair enough.

    • Seano says:

      11:16pm | 01/05/11

      “And you may accuse me of being a party hack, which I’m not. But, I’m gunna be. “

      No I accused you of putting up some pretty transparent rhetoric as fact.

      Also you are seriously out off your rocker if you think that public policy should be held hostage to the inconviences of “1000s of people” in a nation of 22.5 million people. Using that logic we should never build another road, airport or really anything that might be built near people.

      “Rubbish. It is a massive, expensive white elephant that will be technologically obsolete before it is completed. “

      As someone with a degree in IT can see from this comment that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

    • jf says:

      07:13pm | 02/05/11

      Seano says:

      11:16pm | 01/05/11

      “And you may accuse me of being a party hack, which I’m not. But, I’m gunna be. “No I accused you of putting up some pretty transparent rhetoric as fact.””

      “Only a party hack could not see through such a transparent piece of rhetoric.”

      And, it follows, according to you, that only a party hack could not see through said transparent rhetoric. Ipso facto, according to you, I am a party hack. Not that I’m offended but you’ve just got to stop making stuff up.

      “As someone with a degree in IT can see from this comment that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.”

      During the course of my multiple degrees and post-graduate degrees I have completed plenty of IT study. However, telecommunications infrastructure technology is a complex and sophisticated area. I, for one, wouldn’t presume to be able to be the sole source of knowledge or truth on this. There are plenty of people that have a great deal of knowledge on telecommunications infrastructure and who work in the area and who do not believe that the proposed NBN is the best way forward. I’ll take their word for it rather than a teacher with a bit of IT101 behind them.

    • jf says:

      07:21pm | 02/05/11

      Chris L says:

      06:18pm | 01/05/11

      “@JF, when people point out the flaws in both parties you make the assumption that they are loyal Labor followers and that their only “defence” is to say the other side is bad too.”

      No I don’t. You just assumed that by loyal Labor followers I was including anyone who was critical of the opposition or indeed supportive of the Government. As someone who, over the years, has been both critical of Liberal Party policy and supportive of ALP policy I would not put myself in that category. In fact, I am a coalition supporter by-and-large – It would be dishonest and disingenuous for me to pretend otherwise. On the topic of which “I never professed such convictions. I simply view both sides critically.”

      “This is where it appears you consider balanced criticism to be a bad thing.”

      Point out one comment I have made where I have even suggested this. I have, over the years, been de-rided as a lefty by the more committed (I use this word advisedly) of the far right contingent. In fact, I was accused last week of being a Labor Party hack for my views on Nurse Practitioners. I’m sure that you’ll see the irony.

      “PS, I honestly did find the dichotomy amusing. If you find that patronising, fair enough.”

      We have discovered on this very blog that your sense of humour is unable to extend to not-so-subtle word plays let alone amusing dichotomies.

    • nossy says:

      01:48pm | 30/04/11

      If i can just vear a tiny bit off topic Mark i must comment on a gorgeous young lady at the Wedding last night - Pippa Middleton, Marys bridesmaid and sister - what a stunner - if only I was still in my twenties viewers I would be winging my way to Londaon as we speak ! I am smitten !

    • jf says:

      02:42pm | 30/04/11

      I thought that you had only eyes for one (not so) fair maiden at Westminster Abbey last night. Sadly Timbo has snagged that catch.

      And, whilst I am sure that you know better than anybody but London is spelled London (not Londaon) and whingeing (not winging). A Labor supporter can probably be forgiven the first but not the second.

      However, I do agree Nossy - and I notice that the Duke hadn’t missed her either.

    • Steve says:

      05:25pm | 30/04/11

      Not often I agrre with Nossy. I got home late and thought the sister was the bride in a simple dress.

    • Chris L says:

      07:12pm | 30/04/11

      “whingeing”? Are you taking the piss JF?

    • CJ Morgan says:

      08:15pm | 30/04/11

      @ jf:

      You obviously haven’t bought that dictionary yet.

    • Aitch B says:

      04:56am | 01/05/11

      @nosthow

      Who the hell is Mary?

    • CJ Morgan says:

      12:09pm | 01/05/11

      @ jf:

      nossy talked about “winging” his way to London - you know, as in flying.  I take it you’re unfamiliar with that very common expression?

      “Whingeing”, on the other hand, is what many do when they post to The Punch.  I hope this helps.

    • jf says:

      01:28pm | 01/05/11

      CJ Morgan says:12:09pm | 01/05/11

      Oh dear CJ; are you serious. Christ almighty I hope not.

      “nossy talked about “winging” his way to London - you know, as in flying.  I take it you’re unfamiliar with that very common expression?

      “Whingeing”, on the other hand, is what many do when they post to The Punch.  I hope this helps.”

      That was the joke CH.

      You see, Nossy joked about flying (i.e. winging) to London.

      I pounced and, by cunningly using his obvious typo Londaon, trickily suggested that he had also mis-spelled whingeing as, being my political opponent on this blog, he must be conceding that he is a whinger and would therefore on his trip to London by undoubtedly whingeing.

      It was a little bit of opportunistic, but light-hearted banter.

      It was a comedic coincidence that the reference was to London (eg whingeing poms).

      I hope this helps.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      08:44am | 02/05/11

      Oh OK jf, very droll.  You had to be there, I guess.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      02:21pm | 30/04/11

      @ jf:

      I haven’t been a Labor voter for more than 10 years, let alone “rusted on”.

      A pox on both Labor and Liberal, I say.  Our democracy is compromised by the two party system.

    • jf says:

      04:01pm | 30/04/11

      “Our democracy is compromised by the two party system.”

      I don’t agree CJ (with your second comments I mean).

      As to your first, you had me fooled.

      In order to have a strong, functioning Government, whilst you need a mix of ideas, opinions and thoughts you ultimately require a united purpose. Whilst you need hearty and respect debate within Government, you also need a goverment that can collaborate and implement.

      Whilst the dems and greens (and others) do provide good and bad ideas and apply alternative scrutiny to the government (and opposition) they tend (by and large) to represent extremes. And if the extremists get into power you can well and truly kiss democracy (not to mention freedom and human rights) goodbye.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      05:33pm | 30/04/11

      @ jf:

      “Whilst you need hearty and respect debate within Government, you also need a goverment that can collaborate and implement.”

      I agree entirely, but how could any Government collaborate with an Opposition like the current one that simply opposes just about every government initiative, regardless of merit - not to mention reducing political ‘debate’ to the mindless repetition of asinine slogans aimed at the lowest common denominator in the electorate?

      While the Labor government has certainly been underwhelming, they have at least tried (mostly) to collaborate with the Independents and Greens.  For something approaching real democracy in Australia, we need to introduce multi-member electorates and proportional representation in the House of Representatives.

      But that’s not going to happen easily under the Tweedledum and Tweedledumber two party system.

    • Rosie says:

      08:08pm | 30/04/11

      CJ Morgan

      WTF - “While the Labor government has certainly been underwhelming, they have at least tried (mostly) to collaborate with the Independents and Greens.”

      Where have you been all this time? Off course they will collaborate with the stupid Independents and sleezy Greens, they have no choice but to do so to remain in power until the next Elections! Read the article again!

    • Joan says:

      03:06am | 01/05/11

      @Rosie Would they be the same “stupid Independents and sleezy Greens” that the Coalition tried to form Government with, and continue to ask to join with them?

    • CJ Morgan says:

      09:11am | 01/05/11

      @ Rosie:

      Obviously you didn’t understand my comment.  I’ve read the article, and I’m suggesting that a major part of our problem is that our version of democracy has generated the situation where the two major parties really have little to distinguish them in terms of policy, but fight each other tooth and nail, using every dirty trick in the book to win government.

      This effectively disenfranchises around half the electorate, the more extreme of whom bitch and moan about the winning side until the next, invariably close, election.  All the Opposition does is oppose anything the Government tries to do - even if, as in the case of the carbon tax, it is virtually the same as their own policy.  All the Government does is vacillate according to the latest poll or focus group, in order to retain the tenuous support of ‘swinging’ voters.

      Unfortunately, people like you are the reason that this idiocy persists, and will do for the forseeable future.  Perhaps if you engaged your brain rather than ranting on about “stupid Independents and sleezy (sic) Greens” you’d have some chance of understanding both the article and my comments on it.

    • jf says:

      10:46am | 01/05/11

      @ CJ Morgan 05:33pm | 30/04/11

      I meant with each other and their partners in Government. However, I agree that an opposition that is able to take a partisan approach on policies that have merit is important. Just because this Government has had precious little policy with merit does not mean that the opposition is at fault. 

      “reducing political ‘debate’ to the mindless repetition of asinine slogans aimed at the lowest common denominator in the electorate”

      I am with you on this, however, the opposition are hardly alone on this and the Government is in no position to take the high moral ground.

      “While the Labor government has certainly been underwhelming, they have at least tried (mostly) to collaborate with the Independents and Greens.”

      They would have had more integrity (as would the opposition) if they had simply said, “piss off, this is our platform, this is what we believe is best for the country, this is what we took to the electorate and this is what we will be implementing”.

      Instead, they have given the the Greens and Independents a disproportionate voice in Government purely so that they can retain power.

    • Rosie says:

      11:51am | 01/05/11

      @ Joan

      Yes the same buffoons that Tony Abbott had to woo to form Govt. It is the name of the game and unfortunately the opportunity was given to Gillard making Tony Abbott’s Coalition the Opposition. The way the game is played the Opposition will do anything in its power to get rid of a bad Govt so it is only natural for Tony Abbott to keep wanting the buffoons to change their minds for a begining to another Election. We can only live in hope.

      @ CJ Morgan

      Nothing to understand but for the Coalition to take charge they need to get rid of this bad Govt. Oppositions are always desperate to govern and Tony Abbott knows what needs to be done to have this happen, whether he gets the stupid Independents and the sleezy Green to swap sides or get Gillard at the end of her tether and call for early Election.

      I disagree our democracy is not compromised by the two party system, it has worked before. I believe the beginings of the leader of this Minority Govt and the buffoons that have aided her to form Govt is the problem. It hasn’t worked and will never work so all will be better off if elections were held asap for a majority Govt.

      “Once bitten twice shy” Both of you ponder on it!

    • Joan says:

      01:53pm | 01/05/11

      @Rosie   I can just see the letter from Tony Abbott now ...

      “Dear buffoons, stupid Independents and sleezy Greens,

      Please join with us to form a minority government.

      Sincerely,    T.Abbott”

      I wonder why they turned him down ? Good luck with that.

    • DaveK says:

      03:03pm | 01/05/11

      @ Joan

      What is your problem? Rosie has said that the Coalition would do anything in their power, legal that is to get rid of a bad Government It is the job of any Opposition. We have a bad government, surely that is understandable, so if it means to keep wanting the Independents and the Greens over to side with the Opposition so be it. This Joan is what Rosie has admitted, she is not in denial about it so why the sarcasm?

      If you are still wondering why they turned Abbott down, you and Julia Gillard’s apologists are in denial about the fact that Windsor and Oakeshott wasted 17 days making out they where trying to put things into perspective before they made their minds up. This was a charade has smart people knew all along they were never going to vote for Tony Abbott, because of their intense dislike of the National Party!

      Cut the childish letter for something more meaningful to the debate!

    • Joan says:

      06:53pm | 01/05/11

      @DaveK     Rosie’s problem, and apparently yours too, is that she thinks that calling people buffoons, stupid, and sleezy (sic) will win them over to her side. Good luck with that.

    • Chris L says:

      10:24pm | 01/05/11

      A fair point Joan. Many people who post here often say things that boil down to “if you disagree with me you’re stupid”. Not a very convincing argument nor a graceful representation of whichever side they’re advocating.

    • Rosie says:

      04:36pm | 30/04/11

      Paul Kelly was right in today’s Australian while Julia was trotting the globe mixing it with world dignitaries Tony Abbott was at home mixing it with Australia’s most damaged communities and those desperate to make this their home. It could be said that it was unfair because of the great contrast.

      While Gillard was happily immersed in all the razzle-dazzle, Tony Abbott was on his principle mission of tigtening the wedge on the Labor Govt. Tony Abbott has ruthlessly taken advantage of the Labor Govt’s vulnerability and his timing is spot on. The problem the Govt has is that Tony Abbott hasn’t complied with nearly all the issues introduced by the Govt from climate change to boat people to Aboriginals to religion.

      Tony isn’t given the credit he deserves, but does he care? Definitely not he just goes about his principle mission travelling to Christmas Island to campaign on asylum-seekers, Whyalla to coax the unionists against the carbon tax and then to Alice Springs to put more pressure on Gillard over the Govt doing nothing to improve the livelihood of our indigenous people.

      Paul Kelly summed it up nicely and I quote; “Yes, that’s about the need to look positive. It shows, above all, Abbott’s ability as Opposition Leader to set the agenda and this is where Labor has so seriously misread him.

      “Watch out Gillard” I would hate to be in your position coming home after thinking you left for the good of the nation.

    • stephen says:

      08:15pm | 30/04/11

      Abbott’s interesting because most don’t know him, he is so different from so many other politicians, and they can’t explain or refute his emphases.
      His personality to me, however, seems incomplete, and the Prime-Ministership may solve his problems, and ours.

    • Richard says:

      03:14am | 01/05/11

      The problem Tony Abbott has is his need to look positive.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      12:44am | 01/05/11

      Hi Mark,

      It is nearly Federal Budget time, I think we all feel a little bit anxious and weary about the whole thing!!  I presume that the last thing the Australian Public would want is another set of broken elections promises, all over again!!  I personally hope that there will be a lot of talk about what is in the best interest of all Australians, between the Federal Government and the Opposition.  Seeing them come to a mutual decision would definitely make a nice change!!

      We all heard quite enough about carbon tax, mining tax, gay marriage and border protection!  How all that will effect the lives of every day Australians should be explained very clearly to every one,  in a language we all understand!!  And how about the all the other taxes that really matter, our living standards, most importantly creating job opportunities for the long term unemployed and a better deal for working Australian families??

      A lot of questions to be answered and so little time to come up with long term plans as well as policies which will ultimately serve the Australian Public.  Best regards to your editors.

    • Lucas says:

      05:52am | 01/05/11

      GO on, stick the boot into Abbott. It’s all Abbotts fault as usual. Sick to death of hearing excuses given by and for this Government. Sounds like you had a little meeting withh Swan before you wrote this ALP apology/excuse letter.

    • Billy B says:

      09:53am | 01/05/11

      Nossy - ” young lady at the Wedding last night - Pippa Middleton, Marys bridesmaid and sister - what a stunner - if only I was still in my twenties viewers I would be winging my way to Londaon as we speak ! I am smitten ! “
      Nossy what are you on?  Don’t you mean Kate’s bridesmaid and sister?  Caw blimey you are off the planet.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      02:53pm | 01/05/11

      It’s quite a shock to see that some people believe that the labor government handled the GFC either correctly or well. The current numbers disclose the truth; we have a “2 speed” economy, which is another way of saying that the dozens of billions squandered, where just that: squandered, not having produced the desired effect of kick starting the economy. I still remember Rudd being when interviewed about the government fiscal policy saying that when the economy contracted that government had to step in and take over and when the economy expanded government need to pull back.

      In other words when people aren’t wasting money then the neo-Keynesians think they need to step in and keep squandering money on worthless schemes like re-tarring perfectly good roads to keep the economic numbers looking normal. Of course neo-Keynesian economics has a strong natural magnetism to the Marxistically inclined and what better way to express their paternalistic (maternalistic in case of the redhead) know-better-then-thou afflictions then through squandering money on economically unsound project like “green and clean”  fridge trade-ins, burning pink bats or cash for clunkers etc etc.

      If it wasn’t for that northern pack of communists hoovering up our resources we would now have a single speed economy struggling to find first gear and more realistically being stuck in reverse for the next decade deleveraging from a case of severe indigestion on the pre-crash global glut of credit.

      But when all the dust has settled the long term outcome of these programs is simply the interest bill on the ocean of debt created. A clear advantage of these seas of debt is that Marxistically inclined governments have a now clear mandate to raise taxes, move inflation up a few notches and cut subsidies to the allies of their enemies.

      The basic Keynesian error is it to believe that government spending has anything to do with the necessary deleveraging now taking place globally and that somehow miraculously people will just ignore the past and return to consuming credit with free abandon. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that the government, its advisers and the reserve bank really have NFI about managing the economy, even if such a thing where realistically possible.

    • Bikinis On top says:

      03:09pm | 01/05/11

      Is Abbott Labor’s best weapon?

    • Billy B says:

      12:39pm | 03/05/11

      Bikinis On top - Just what are you on?

    • Bikinis On top says:

      03:09pm | 01/05/11

      Is Abbott Labor’s best weapon?

    • Libby says:

      07:47pm | 01/05/11

      Until Abbott can talk to me as the intelligent and thoughtful person that i am i will continue to ignore him. 

      Not suggesting that i listen when Gillard or Swan has a go - just that i’m sick and tired of being treated by both sides like a person without any free thought - slogans aren’t going to win me over. 

      All Abbott is doing is absolutely opposing every Labor policy with catchphrases - he’s not telling me why they are wrong or how he’s going to do things better…

      Tony, i dont fall for catchphrases - stop saying “great big new tax” and actually contribute something to the conversation and maybe i’ll support you. 

      The thing that both major parties missed from the result of the last election is that a certain portion of the community has wised up to the tactics.  No other reasons plausible for the swing to the minor parties.

    • the whisperer says:

      09:54pm | 01/05/11

      Why does Abbott draw so much contempt, personally, from so many Australians? Is it because parents know that he is guided by George Pell, the member of the Catholic heirarchy who refused to protect our children from his child-molesting colleagues in that evil institution? Or perhaps it is the fact that he thinks that women are somehow inferior to men? Or is it something to do with his inability to control his violent streak, such as we all saw during his well-documented staring rage after he was ‘outed’ in re the ‘shit happens’ debacle. Good form for someone who claims to be Prime Minister material. Shows a fine regard for our boys and girls overseas fighting for democracy. Some defender of this arrogant pretender, (has he ever produced a policy?), says that he has been running around the country seeking solutions to problems whilst Gilliard, the democratically elected Prime Minister of this wonderful nation, has been on an overseas jaunt. Which means I suppose that Abbott, were he P.M. would have said, “Sorry, can’t go to the wedding, too much to do. Too busy!” What a deceitful person he is. And of course those who support him.
      While all of you coalition supporters, (we know it’s because you like to think you’re all part of the “upper class”), like to say, ad nauseum, that Gilliard ‘lied’ about the carbon tax, perhaps you might like to note that Australia is in the top bracket of the world’s countries in the area of low unemployment, total debt, and balance of trade figures. That looks good for my children, and that is more important to me than some failed priest who won an Oxford blue for belting some poor fellow into submission. Like everything else about him that seems to suggest a dual personality. One for us and one for his personal desires. Could a broken promise indicate a lying disposition? He did vow to honor his Vatican father above all. Or does his first loyalty go to the Australian people? Now, because he finds it expedient so to do?

    • farkurnell says:

      09:56pm | 01/05/11

      I hope Julia can pick up some austerity measures from the Brits,Gor Blimey the best they could muster was 3 anciet war planes for the fly past.celibrating the greatest event of the new millenum .

    • F.Mazoudier says:

      06:27pm | 02/05/11

      It’s the old Lib/Lab story ,weather house politics.. one in and the other out..which ever one you poor saps vote for You’ll be sorry , the truth is we have a mob of incompetents running this country, with each party too busy scoring brownie points from one another to actually make any decent policies.
      and stop ignoring the threat of climate change and act now rather than later ..before it’s too late ..F.Mazoudier

 

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