Going through legislation is part of the job of a Member of Parliament. After a piece of legislation is introduced into the Parliament, it is then carefully considered by the appropriate Shadow Minister, who consults widely with stakeholders and other experts to examine how the Government’s changes will impact upon everyday Australians.

This polar bear melted while trying to read the carbon tax bills. Photo: AP

Sometimes the Parliament may choose to send the proposals to a Parliamentary committee for further inquiry. Naturally all of this takes time.

The Gillard Government introduced the carbon tax legislation in the Parliament yesterday and it is over one thousand pages and eighteen separate Bills. Today they plan to push the legislation up the list and debate it immediately.

Members from both sides will be expected to make a 15-minute speech having seen the thousand pages of legislation for less than 24 hours.

As the Coalition has pointed out, the Government has scheduled less than one minute of debate, per Member of Parliament, per Bill.

Normally, once a Bill is introduced into the Parliament it is held for at least one week until it is debated. This gives Members time to prepare a considered response.

This plan of introducing the legislation and then pushing forward debate the following day will mean the legislation will also avoid the additional scrutiny of a House of Representatives committee inquiry, because its shot gun introduction means it will avoid the referral process.

It has been reported that the Greens will use their numbers in alliance with the Government to guillotine debate and ensure the Bills are passed. So not only do the Government want to push forward debate, but they also want to stop it being a full and frank debate.

There are a number of reasons the Government should reconsider its plan to try and force through the carbon tax legislation and avoid the full scrutiny of Parliament and an inquiry.

The most pertinent reason is that only one Member of the 150 sitting in the House of Representatives took a carbon tax policy to the election and was elected on that platform.

All Members representing the Liberal, National and Labor parties were elected promising no carbon tax.

Several people on the Labor side went as far as specifically ruling out a carbon tax, including the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, the Treasurer, Wayne Swan and the former Minister for Climate Change, Penny Wong.

It would seem entirely appropriate that Members on the Labor side of the Parliament might prepare an apology to their constituents who they clearly deceived during the election campaign.

Another good reason is to look at how previous complex legislation was treated in the Parliament. A fair comparison between the introduction of the carbon tax would be the introduction of the Coalition’s Goods and Services Tax Bill in 1998.

When John Howard introduced the Goods and Services Tax, not only did he take the policy to an election, but the Government introduced the tax in the usual manner allowing a week to pass after the introduction of the Bills before beginning the debate.

The GST Bills were also subject to a five month inquiry before eventually being passed.

Now the Government isn’t afraid of committee inquiries for Opposition Bills. They recently sent the Leader of the Opposition’s Wild Rivers Bill to a six month inquiry

The decision to have a shot-gun debate and avoid the scrutiny of an inquiry is a strange move from a Government already fighting perception problems of being dishonest and tricky.

The honest thing to do would be to allow the carbon tax legislation to be considered fully by both the Parliament and any subsequent inquiries so the cost impact on everyday Australians can be fully understood.

128 comments

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    • Ripa says:

      06:34am | 14/09/11

      I Think it is important to note all the people who approve of this “rush”, and make sure they never hold a job or a position of influence again.

    • acotrel says:

      07:04am | 14/09/11

      Rushing legislation through is deplorable.  Never again should our soldiers be sent overseas without a full and frank debate in parliament !

    • RyaN says:

      09:46am | 14/09/11

      @acotrel: so you admit that this neo-communist tactic of pushing through of the carbon tax without the scrutiny of the parliament or the people is deplorable?
      How unsurprising since our commie prime minister and her communist roots show through like a shining hammer and sickle in the morning sun.

    • TomZ says:

      09:52am | 14/09/11

      @acetrol, a pretty stupid attempt at “equivalence” if you think about it.

    • persephone says:

      10:06am | 14/09/11

      acotrel

      And WorkChoices was rushed through Parliament in eight days, and had not been taken to the previous election.

    • TomZ says:

      10:57am | 14/09/11

      @perse, what a wonderful admission from you that Labor is displaying the worst excesses of the former Howard government. Are you starting to develop a conscience?

    • RyaN says:

      11:08am | 14/09/11

      @persephone: and look how well that turned out for them! Still not learning from others mistakes are we?

    • PTom says:

      11:48am | 14/09/11

      This has been talked about for months.
      How many more committees on a Carbon price do we need.
      Does every member really need to get up and speak for 15 minutes one piece of legalisation everytime.

      Yet the Coalition whinge they want have the time to debate yet they have already said would vote against so why do they need time to talk on it?

      BTW these bills are still planned to take weeks which is still slower then workchoice which took days.

    • Bruce says:

      12:36pm | 14/09/11

      Chris. You know the expression, if you want to rush something through in business, which usually has holes in it, make the report a big a possible and ‘baffle them with science’. The government just wants this thing out of the road, so they can get the idiot greens of their back. My biggest concern is, given this governments record of incompetence is how can they introduce this tax without stuffing everything up. Given they will not win the next election, if I were LNP I would be working on how to undo the tax and fix up the stuff ups. No doubt this will happen, as there is not a professional money manager amongst our wonderfull ALP leadership team.

    • Jas says:

      12:37pm | 14/09/11

      heres a graph that helps show how deplorable.

      http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/604/255187460s.jpg

      john howard told us saddam had WMDs - a lie
      he told us saddam had human shredding machines - a lie
      he told us babies were tipped out of incubators and left to die on a cold floor - a lie
      he told us many lies

      http://www.awu.net.au/109589607626152_5.html?H|19|109589607626152|1650569191203

      because hes a liar.

      hmmm - are you the only politician that never lies christopher? just because youre part of a dysfunctional lying opposition, maybe pick up your game a little instead of whinning to us about how awful the lying dysfunctional government is.

      maybe if your side of jokers were not in such denial about the problems of climate change, and had a policy.. like umm..  instead of a tax, how about simple tax reductions on renewable energy reasearch, development, tax breaks for people working inn those industries, and other incentives for businesses to produce solar panels etc…

      see how easy that was? and yet, none of you dolts could even do that.  now we have a tax that will do nothing but help make the rich richer, and the poor poorer.  well mate, youre equally to blame because as an opposition, you mob couldnt fight your way out of a wet paper bag. useless, and unelectable. thats your fault. stop crying, grow up, and start earning your wages.

    • persephone says:

      01:51pm | 14/09/11

      The theory behind debating legislation in the Parliament is that, through such debates, flaws in the proposed legislation can be identified and fixed.

      This requires good faith on the part of the Opposition - namely, that if the legislation is amended accordingly, they will vote for it.

      In this case, the Opposition decided before the legislation was even drafted that they didn’t support it, no matter what it looked like.

      Given that the majority of MPs have been involved in the drawing up of the Bills and support them, what’s the point of allowing the Opposition time to debate it,  when they have made it clear they have no intention of working to improve the laws under discussion?

      It’s simply wasting taxpayers’ money to give Opposition MPs ranting time.

    • RyaN says:

      02:22pm | 14/09/11

      @persephone: is that the same majority of taxpayers money that you are wasting that don’t want this tax?
      I mean its not like the Labor government is introducing this tax on nothing in order to pay for all those wasted taxpayer dollars.
      Its not like this government isn’t well versed at pissing the taxpayer money away with little to show for it, why should this all of a sudden be any different?

    • persephone says:

      02:59pm | 14/09/11

      RyaN

      no, the government isn’t introducing carbon pricing to make up for the money it’s spent already. Not one cent of it goes into general revenue, so carbon pricing does nothing to reduce government debt.

      And you’re right to be concerned about wasting taxpayers’ money. The Opposition shouldn’t do it.

    • Peter says:

      03:18pm | 14/09/11

      persephone, in regards to your comment “WorkChoices was rushed through Parliament in eight days, and had not been taken to the previous election.”

      One huge difference however was that Howard never said “There will be no WorkChoices under a Government I lead”.

    • persephone says:

      03:35pm | 14/09/11

      Peter

      he outlined an industrial relations policy which was significantly different to the one he delivered.

      He had no excuse for this, other than that he had the numbers to do whatever he wanted to do, even if it involved changes specifically ruled out prior to the election.

      And no one is introducing a carbon tax.

    • RyaN says:

      04:14pm | 14/09/11

      @persephone: “And you’re right to be concerned about wasting taxpayers’ money. The Opposition shouldn’t do it. ” but its a OK with you when the Labor party wastes billions of it and kills 3 young adults along the way. I see how it works now, silly me!

    • RyaN says:

      04:33pm | 14/09/11

      @persephone: “Not one cent of it goes into general revenue.” now we all know what happens to people who tell fibs now pers! Not surprising since that liar Gillard is your leader but still I mean how can we trust anything Labor says when they lie their way into power with lines like “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”

      You never did answer me the question as to how much of this carbon tax money goes to the UN pers? I mean a lot of us know that a fair percentage goes to the UN but you Labor lot don’t seem to want that info out in the public.

    • persephone says:

      05:27pm | 14/09/11

      RyaN

      well, I did actually answer the UN question, but you obviously missed it.

      We contribute about $200 million a year, which comes from our Foreign Aid budget and thus appears in the normal Budget papers.

      http://www.climatechange.gov.au/government/international/finance.aspx

      ‘....A$599 million for the three years from 2010 to 2012. Australia’s fast-start package is balanced between support for adaptation and mitigation, consistent with our commitment under the Copenhagen Accord.’

      And yes, it’s OK with me when Labor spends money to keep Australians employed, with a side benefit of reducing ongoing energy costs for one million households and improving safety standards (and outcomes) in what was largely an unregulated industry.

      The fact that employers cannot be trusted to provide safe workplaces is not the government’s fault (after all, we’re always being told that government should get out of the way of small business, and trust them to run their enterprises properly).

      I suppose that’s why we need unions!

    • TomZ says:

      08:00pm | 14/09/11

      @Peter, well said. “One huge difference however was that Howard never said “There will be no WorkChoices under a Government I lead”.”

      Amazing how those Labor drones keep on trying to defend Gillard’s indefensible lie. Even Graham Richardson has admitted the lie was indefensible. But acetrol and perse keep trying to spin it.

    • RyaN says:

      09:58am | 15/09/11

      @persephone: “Not one cent of it goes into general revenue.”
      So you are telling us we just have to “trust” this “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead” and completely untrustworthy government not to be skimming this redistribution of wealth scheme. (because we all already know that it will have absolutely zero impact on global warming since there are not measures nor goals to be achieved)

    • RyaN says:

      10:13am | 15/09/11

      @persephone: “It’s simply wasting taxpayers’ money to give Opposition MPs ranting time. “
      Since Tony Abbott is just going to cancel this carbon tax when he comes to power and Labor is destroyed with 23% vote, then I put it to you that Labor is in fact the ones wasting our money spending billions of dollars ramming through something the vast majority of the public don’t want.

    • brissie says:

      06:45am | 14/09/11

      Mr Pyne

      Are you saying after months of screaming NO and convincing everyone that the world is about to end. Playing clever with Climate Change actually exists or not

      You may actually do a total about face after reading the bils and vote for a reasonable approach to climate change?

      If not I would question your reasons for dragging this out.

    • dovif says:

      08:17am | 14/09/11

      brissie

      Climate change “may” exist, but unless China, India and US does something, nothing will happen

    • persephone says:

      10:08am | 14/09/11

      dovif

      so just as well they all are.

    • Moby says:

      12:25pm | 14/09/11

      @perse

      some proof of that….....preferably from a reputable source

    • persephone says:

      01:41pm | 14/09/11

      Moby

      what, you can’t find any to disprove it?

      You need to learn how to use google.

      But…

      ‘Carbon taxation is in place in the UK, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Canada and (on a selective basis) in China and India. It is under discussion elsewhere, including the European Union, Japan and South Africa.’

      http://climatechangeaction.org.au/reasons-to-act/action-inevitable/

    • Matt says:

      04:26pm | 14/09/11

      Moby asked for a reputable source, persephone. Try again.

    • persephone says:

      05:29pm | 14/09/11

      Matt

      as I said, he can do his own googling.

      The Productivity Commission provides heaps of references, read them,’

      (What are you asking for? Chinese government papers?).

    • Tedd says:

      07:01am | 14/09/11

      Chris, your party/coaltion when in govt in 2007 went to the polls with a price on pollution, as did the Labor opposition.  Then, your coalition-opposition negotiated with the Labor govt, through Ian McFarlane, for a bipartisan approach.

      Rudd’s ego in taking a model to the world and Abbott’s leadership ego aspirations got in the way, so your lot turned on your then leader Malcolm Turnbull, and the level of debate has been downhill all the way since. Especially the spittle coming from the mouths of babes on your side. We don’t want to hear any more. Begone.

    • Michael says:

      08:23am | 14/09/11

      Tedd, you don’t want to hear anymore and that is fine, you may leave the conversation if you wish, however, i would like to hear the rest of the debate and conversation and i would appreciate it if you would desist in speaking on my behalf. Thanks in advance, have a nice day smile

    • nihonin says:

      08:28am | 14/09/11

      Lets not forget the Greens in the Senate and a party as a whole were not too impressed with Rudd’s model either, so wouldn’t have passed it in the Senate.  They thought it didn’t go far enough.

    • Tedd says:

      08:43am | 14/09/11

      Michael, it’s not a conversation: conversation would be good - it is invective flecked with spittle that I object to.

    • BP says:

      10:18am | 14/09/11

      @ Tedd. Not quite correct there. Both parties went to the 2007 election with a proposed ETS. The opposition after losing the election then had a DEMOCRATIC vote on the leadership of the party over whether to persist with an ETS or to oppose such. Tony Abbott won this vote and as the new leader of the opposition had every right to oppose both an ETS and a Carbon price as that was what he took into the party room when the ballot was called.

      I note you use the 2007 election where both parties had a similar policy as the reason we should now support this pricing. Would it not be more honest to use the 2010 election where the policies were different, but with an undertaking by one party - “There will be NO carbon tax under a government I lead” - not to introduce either carbon pricing or an ETS until after the next election?

      The excuse that circumstance forced a backflip does not cut it. Either the PM leads the government or not. If she does then she has broken a promise made prior to the election. If not, then she should return to the Governor General and admit she does not have enough control over the parliament to maintain an election promise and seek another election and a mandate for her carbon price.

      The promise influenced some in the electorate to change the way they intended on voting. I am not saying that the effect would have been all one way, but that it had an effect is definate. I personally know at least two people who voted for their local ALP member based on that statement, thinking that there would be time for more debate prior to the next election so that they could then make a more reasoned choice. These people acknowledge and agree that climate change is real. However they wanted to hear more on the A part of AGW before allowing a government to introduce a new tax system that would possibly impact every part of their lives.

      They hated what Julia had done to gain power but were willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and her promise on the carbon tax cemented that choice. Without that promise they have told me that there is no way they would have voted Labor. These are only two I know of personally, other people I know tell me of others who chose their vote in a similar fashion.

      Finally, for someone to comment on the level of debate to then finish off as your post has, probably proves your point more for those who have a differing view to yours.

    • B says:

      10:24am | 14/09/11

      @Tedd
      Then you object to yourself.  Your comment is exactly what is wrong with this debate.  Too many w**kers not knowing enough about the issue and shoving in their two cents worth. It is a fact that AGW does NOT exist and no evidence shown in the last 10 years has ever convinced me, or anyone I know of this fact.  The Runaway GH effect is bogus and AGW is bogus.

      CARBON DIOXIDE TAX is just a way for the government to raise revenue to cover their own inept ability at governing.

    • TomZ says:

      10:32am | 14/09/11

      Tedd, “spittle”? LOL. You lefties are such a hoot.

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/Both-political-extremes-should-be-left-right-out/

      “I’ve just been shocked not only at the extraordinary level of viciousness but the fact that the abuse almost entirely seems to come from lefties. And it is not just a handful of incidents but scores and scores – probably hundreds.”

      The “spittle” is all yours Tedd. Begone.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      10:53am | 14/09/11

      Tedd, that was two elections ago.. the 2010 election (the only one that counts now) everyone except the Greens promised NO CARBON TAX.
      Using the 2007 election as some form of legitimacy is disingenuous.

    • old fart says:

      12:02pm | 14/09/11

      dont call him Chris he doesnt like it, Christopher, very pedantic our little Christopher likes everything just right our Christoopher does. It must be very annoying that you have to deal with a government that wont cooperate and pushes things through.  mind you, they had good teachers. young Johnny could lead them a merry chase. They were all very naughty boys back in government.  Glass houses hey Chrissie,

    • Tedd says:

      08:29pm | 14/09/11

      LeftRightOut - yes it was 2 elections ago, but zi was not using it as legitimacy: rather was using it as a reflection of how different the debate was a few years ago.

      BP - Yes the Coation had a vote for the leadership AFTER it had spent quite a while negotiating with the Labor Govt for a bipartisan approach: Remember MacFarlane and Wong getting together daily for weeks??!!

      My point - the scenario was much more agreeable & cozy [than it is now, especially by the Coalition] -  still stands!

    • Fiddler says:

      07:12am | 14/09/11

      While I agree this legislation is being rushed through, is any amount of debate going to change how any sitting MP or Senator votes? Pretty sure every single one has made their position quite clear, either through the party head in the case of the major parties or individually in the case of the Independents.

      It is a foregone conclusion that short of a death or the collapse of the government this will scrape through

    • acotrel says:

      07:41am | 14/09/11

      @fiddler
      ‘While I agree this legislation is being rushed through, is any amount of debate going to change how any sitting MP or Senator votes? ‘

      I agree, if the debate ran over the next ten years, Abbott wouldn’t change his mind.  He’d still be primarily focussed on getting into the Lodge, and he’d still be trying to find a creative way of getting their !  Unfortunately for him he is devoid of that commodity, he cannot even organise a stunt !

    • Fiddler says:

      08:50am | 14/09/11

      @ acotrel it wouldn’t last ten years. Labor will lose the next election. Didn’t you get the memo

    • Deck says:

      09:33am | 14/09/11

      More importantly we would have a government with a mandate to implement the legislation - something that seems to be missing from the current situation - it’s called amongst other things legitimacy.

    • acotrel says:

      10:23am | 14/09/11

      @Deck
      At the last election, the voters spoke to you.  Apparently you weren’t listening? If Abbott could negotiate, he’d be PM right now.  Would your comments about ‘legitimacy and mandate’ still apply to him ?

    • Number Cruncher says:

      11:33am | 14/09/11

      Oh Dear @ Acotrel,
      Winning the last election had nothing to do with negotiating but more to do with selling out and extortion in order to retain power.  Good on TA for not selling out to the Indies or Greens for the sake of forming a pathetic minority govt.  I would hardly call JG a great negotiator BTW…800 for 4000 swap at our expense not what I call a good deal!

    • old fart says:

      12:05pm | 14/09/11

      hang on this is the new paridgm, members dont have positions parties do, local representation has been dead and buried for many years

    • Moby says:

      12:31pm | 14/09/11

      @ acotrel

      Whilst Tony Abbott may not change his mind, unlike the Labor party, the members of the LNP coalition have every right to vote how they like when it comes to a bill being presented, without fear of being tossed out of the party

    • Horns Up says:

      01:05pm | 14/09/11

      @Moby - how many LNP members dared cross the floor under Howard? None. Pretending that the LNP allows members to vote their conscience is completely transparent rot.

      \m/

    • gra gra says:

      02:15pm | 14/09/11

      @Moby. Are you suggesting that Turnbull will cross the floor on this matter? You know, do the honorable thing? No, in the face of expulsion he will toe the line of big business.
      This fragile, delicate, despicable politician, the writer of this poorly research rant, who is known around the corridors as ‘Yellow Pyne’ and is still in shock at being turfed in ‘07 and re-turfed in 2010, cannot explain why Abbott’s “plan” to tax the battlers to re-imburse his bosses
      is in any way fair, let alone ‘Australian’.
      As a better wordsmith than I said to him in the House last year. “Pyne away, pussycat”.

    • gra gra says:

      02:23pm | 14/09/11

      @Deck. You mean a mandate like Howard had when he sent our very best to their death in support of Bush-Oil incorporated? Is that your serious concern? That we might(?) have to pay a few bucks without such being mandated, but taking the country to war is not something in which we should have a say? Even though we were never under threat from Hussein, or any Afghanistan?
      Your stupidity, wrapped in ignorance, and surrounded by Abbot-love is
      appallingly obvious.

    • Brian Taylor says:

      07:20am | 14/09/11

      Julia is doing what her Hero Obama did with the healthcare bill in the states.
      “you have to pass this bill so that you know what is in it” was the cry”
      he’s going to get his arse kicked out of office and so will Julia and most of those labor wimps who’re backing her.
      Bring on the election

    • acotrel says:

      07:44am | 14/09/11

      @Brian Taylor
      Bring back John Howard!  At least he’s used to the feeling of getting his arse kicked out of office!

    • Robert Smissen of rural SA says:

      11:56am | 14/09/11

      Obama is coming, Obamama is coming. Obama is coming to Oz so that he stand along side of someone less popular than he. What a sideshow, America’s worst president since Kennedy standing along side the worst Australian PM since federation.

    • old fart says:

      12:34pm | 14/09/11

      lucky Obama is not coming by boat, he’d have to wait a bit before he was allowed in, Barack Obama, with a name like that he must be a terrorist or is known to them or has engaged in supplying weapons, must be an unsavory character.  Maybe he is an economic refugee.

    • Robert Smissen of rural SA says:

      01:11pm | 14/09/11

      @old fart, not to mention that when Barack Hussein Obama was living in Indonesia with his dilettante mother, that he was a practicing Muslim. I don’t object to being a Muslim in the past, more that he denys that he was

    • Damocles says:

      01:30pm | 14/09/11

      Jeez acotrel, don’t you have anything better to do with your time? You always seem to be here, dumping on the opposition with the most senseless comments….....anything to knock and criticise, and yet you can’t find anything to knock or criticise about this obviously bad current government, which leads me to believe you’re not fair in your opinions and therefore your opinions mean absolutely nothing, just pure, unadulterated bile. Go play somewhere else and I keep telling you to stay off that lime cordial it plays havoc with your thinking.

    • Nathan says:

      07:21am | 14/09/11

      To be fair, the Opposition has already said that they would oppose the bills: not consider them on their merits, not seek to amend them to make them palatable to their sensibilities; flat out oppose them. So enough with the crocodile tears, your leader has ‘staked his leadership on this issue’, so to go through the motions would be a farce.

      I also seem to remember another piece of legislation where an opposition received the detail that morning and were expected to vote on it that afternoon ... WorkChoices anyone? Pot Kettle!

    • TomZ says:

      11:13am | 14/09/11

      I take it you will oppose the carbon tax on the same basis you opposed WorkChoices?

    • the apologist says:

      11:15am | 14/09/11

      even so, 1000 pages is a lot of space to sneak through something(s)/some provision very sneakily under the radar. If the opposition doesn’t have the opportunity to look at it and holler accordingly if the population are going to get done over in more ways than we realise - then i’d say he’s got a strong argument.
      Besides, the principle of maintaining decent and propoer procedure is enough of a defence in itself. incremental slides in politics have brought about terrible results in history. We need to maintain standards.

    • Dave-o says:

      07:22am | 14/09/11

      You had your chance Pyne to debate, write, alter, inquire and nit-pick the CPRS.

      But instead you vowed to fight. Now all of a sudden you find yourself being beaten by your opponent who you thought would just roll over and take your populist crap.

      You’ve made your bed and defected in it, so lie in it already.

    • Average Joe says:

      08:23am | 14/09/11

      Typically arrogant - the same attitude that has your Fearful Leader clinging to power by turning a blind eye to the Thompson scandal and pushing through a tax that the vast majority of Australians do not want, did not vote for and were promised by Herself not to happen - under a government she leads…..but as Bob Brown leads the government now then it’s OK…..and she is living the lie to, again, cling to power.
      You can see the end is coming this year or next and it’ll condemn the ALP to at least 4 terms in opposition. So enjoy your arrogance….we all know it’s just a cover for the fear of what you know is the ALP’s electoral destiny.

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      08:28am | 14/09/11

      ?????????? how does one ‘defect’ in bed     o_O

    • acotrel says:

      08:45am | 14/09/11

      @Kirisu
      Just eat too much curry!  Michael Orloff defected to the west after he’d crapped in his own nest !

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      08:57am | 14/09/11

      @ acotrel - that won’t work, i love a good curry.

    • Observer says:

      08:01am | 14/09/11

      So wait… should they or should they not call another election first?

      I mean, that was the liberal line for about 12 months - “another election!”-  we heard. Now we dont hear it… now we hear complaints that the parliament will complete some legislation with or without the input of those trying to deny it..

      So do we or do we not need another election in order to have a parliament that can govern? Looks like it is governing exactly as it did when slavechoices was crashed through.

      So what is it? A new election? Delay the bill until Copenhagen? Delay until.. Easter? Delay until next December?
      The problem with playing a bluff is that once the other guy calls all in, you cant stop the dealer flipping the next card.

    • acotrel says:

      08:49am | 14/09/11

      @Observer
      ‘The moment of truth’ ? It should be quite amusing ! I wonder what Tarzan’s offsider will do when he gets his arse kicked ?

    • old fart says:

      12:08pm | 14/09/11

      seems to be a recurring catchcry lately delay delay delay until we learn how to write a policy

    • Darren says:

      08:31am | 14/09/11

      if your party was slightly interested in debating the issues you may have had the courtesy of remaining in the parliament to listen to the debate - instead you all ran and hid in your orifices

    • NicoleG says:

      11:51am | 14/09/11

      A bit like yesterday when Labor ran out of QT and hid in their offices? Too shit scared of what Abbot had to say? Hmmm I see. BTW, Mr Pyne is debating as I type.

    • Sookie says:

      12:07pm | 14/09/11

      Sure thing nicole
      We’ve all heard NO before.

      Pity the opposition have nothing of substance to say, just more of the same scaremongering and nay-saying.
      Pyne is more likely mincing than debating. NO is not a debate.

    • Leto says:

      12:13pm | 14/09/11

      I have never seen a parliamentary debate.

      What I have seen is petty, childlike bickering and insults from people who are supposedly leading a nation.

    • old fart says:

      12:30pm | 14/09/11

      yeah poor old Harry yesterday, I thought he was going to have a stroke

    • Ted B says:

      01:20pm | 14/09/11

      Poor Harry rubbish. It is about time he told the members to shut the f*ck up and sit down unless they give clear and very direct answers to questions put to them.

    • Number Cruncher says:

      08:34am | 14/09/11

      It will be a very sad day for Australia when this wealth distribution scheme disguised as an environmental tax gets passed through parliament. Not only do we already have a series of inefficient state and federal renewable energy targets and environmental schemes driving up the costs of just about everything, most notably my power bills, we are about to cop an additional expense on top of. I work for a medium sized family business on manufacturing which is already struggling with input costs and the high AUD. No compensation available to our business. Only option is to put up prices and hope customers will still buy and we won’t have to close down. Unless this legislation comes with an import tarrif for goods imported from a country with no carbon tax, and an export tarrif for energy shipped overseas, I have some serious doubts re viability of industry in Aus. I also have no desire for my earnings and standard of living to be reduced as treasury modelling would imply. Why would we willingly send ourselves down this path?

    • acotrel says:

      09:06am | 14/09/11

      @Number Cruncher
      Don’t you believe we should move towards finding renewable energy sources ? I wonder why you guys never protested when all research and development in Australia was centred around defence ?  You never cried about the cost !  This new approach is much more edifying, and the benefits won’t be directed at killing people !

    • Number Cruncher says:

      09:48am | 14/09/11

      @Acotrel
      I have no problem in finding cleaner energy sources…I have a problem with a so called tax that will not help the environment, takes away my money and gives it to someone else and makes everything else more expensive in the process.  The way the legislation currently stands, there is not much incentive for people to change their ways.  Because the consumer is ‘compensated’, the polluters will just pass on the cost and increase prices.  And wouldn’t it make more sense to give polluters time (say 3-5 years) to develop these revolutionary ‘renewable’ energy sources ratehr than just make our current supply more expensive in the inetrim, given that nuclear is out of the question? 
      For the record, I am not for excessive spending on defence.  Understand the requirement for national security but do believe mankind should be at a point where the need for armies for war should not exist.  Wishful thinking I know but some things will never change I guess…

    • B says:

      10:43am | 14/09/11

      @acotrel

      We are not crying for the money using in R&D.  I dont remember the goverment adding a DEFENCE TAX to pay for Defence R&D so your analogy is flat.  IT IS THE TAX we object to.  The fact that the government is using flawed scientific data to push an ideological agenda.

      I dont remember their being a tax put on horse feed to introduce the MOTOR VEHICLE.  When the technology is ready it will be cost effective.  Until then stop trying to get everyone to pay for YOUR idealogical goals.

      This tax is just for people who are scared about the future.  Unsure of what is going to happen and try and scare everyone into their point of view.

    • persephone says:

      08:40am | 14/09/11

      Your party was invited to take part in the committee which drew up the scheme and refused to take part.

      Anyway, how long do you need to say “NO”?

    • Nigel says:

      09:06am | 14/09/11

      Spin, spin, spin ...Your party was invited to take part in the committee which drew up the scheme and refused to take part. And doing so would have tacitly endorsed the concept of a carbon tax so the more appropriate move was not to endorse any such scheme.

      Anyway, how long do you need to say “NO”?  Right up until the next election I would think is about long enough.

    • Michael says:

      09:10am | 14/09/11

      That’s not quite correct Persephone,  people that agreed that AGW was real were invited to the conversation, those who did not believe were not so welcome.

      Touche on the last point though wink

    • acotrel says:

      09:10am | 14/09/11

      ‘Your party was invited to take part in the committee which drew up the scheme and refused to take part.’
      Sophie Mirabella was probably busy powdering her nose, or putting more poison on the tips of her darts, to get involved in innovation which might bring more industry to Australia ?

    • Joan says:

      09:58am | 14/09/11

      Why would anyone in their right mind sign on to Gaia man Flannery and Windsor committee?  You don’t say yes to garbage policy. Australia contributes 1.5% to world emissions, yet Gillard prepared to price carbon at $23 per tonne- world top of the range price, at the same time selling coal to rest of world as cheap power source.  Nuts if you think this is a good deal for Australia and all Australians.

    • Joan says:

      09:58am | 14/09/11

      Why would anyone in their right mind sign on to Gaia man Flannery and Windsor committee?  You don’t say yes to garbage policy. Australia contributes 1.5% to world emissions, yet Gillard prepared to price carbon at $23 per tonne- world top of the range price, at the same time selling coal to rest of world as cheap power source.  Nuts if you think this is a good deal for Australia and all Australians.

    • persephone says:

      10:03am | 14/09/11

      Nigel

      Fine. But they can’t whinge about being excluded now, when they excluded themselves to start with.

      Parliamentarians representing the majority of votes in Parliament were involved, so they don’t need extra time to work through the issues.

      What’s the point of delaying something which has the support of the majority of those in Parliament just so that those who couldn’t be bothered participating get a chance to get up to speed?

      ....and if that’s all the Oppo have to say, then they don’t need much time in Parliament to say it.

      Michael

      and the Coalition - including Tony Abbott - repeatedly state that they believe in AGW, so no problem there.

      (Disclaimer; not my zinger, Fran Kelly and Albo got there first!)

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      11:35am | 14/09/11

      Persephone - the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee held a one-sided view into exploring options for implementing a carbon price - not the merits of the tax or whether or not the tax should be implemented. The only debates to participate in within the committee structure were in the investigation of ways to implement the tax. If the Opposition opposes the tax why would they join a committee whose only aim is to find ways implement the tax.

      The debate in parliament now is about the merits of the tax which couldn’t be debated within the structure of the Climate Change Committee.

      So no Persephone - it’s not a case that they couldn’t be bothered participating - it’s wrong to stifle debate in a democracy as you are claiming it should be - its obvious you’re a JuLiar disciple ...

    • persephone says:

      01:46pm | 14/09/11

      Madkat

      if the Opposition were opposing the laws before they were even introduced to Parliament, and are opposed to the introduction of a carbon price, what point is there in giving them extra time to scrutinise them?

      There’s no point them amending legislation they’re going to vote against anyway.

      So they have nothing useful to add to the debate.

      Thus giving them time to debate is a waste of taxpayers’  time and money.

      If they truly want to engage and want inclusion, then there should be some indication of give and take on their side - which means a willingness to support the legislation, once it’s amended.

      If the attitude is that they’re not going to support the legislation, no matter how many changes are made to it, then there’s no point in debating it at all.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      04:29pm | 14/09/11

      Persephone - regardless of how an opposition feels about a piece of legislation, whether they will agree after amendments or outright oppose it is beside the point - debating in parliament is a part of democracy. You can’t have a system where debate for a piece of legisation is only allowed under some circumstances. Under your system WHO WILL CHOOSE whether what a political party is adding something useful or not to a debate, and WHO ULTIMATELY WILL ALLOW a debate to go ahead. You’re talking about taking away the right of an opposition to scruntinise legislation that is going through parliament and restricting debate. So what if they have an opposition fully opposes legislation, so what if the issues have already been debated outside of parliament - in a democractic parliament the opposing voices have a right to be heard. Democracy and, open and free debate should be an issue that is bigger than the petty politiking that is going on now. You may not like what the other side has to say but you should believe in their right to say it.

      “Thus giving them time to debate is a waste of taxpayers’  time and money” - democracy at work is never a waste of taxpayers’ time (except maybe for communists, facists and totalitarians).

    • persephone says:

      05:38pm | 14/09/11

      MadKat

      and they’ve got time to debate it.

      More time than they gave anyone on WorkChoices, when they were in government.

      The government of the day always sets the timetable for debate (and that was part of the Opposition’s argument for not giving Thompson a pair).

    • GC Dude says:

      08:48am | 14/09/11

      Who cares? Abbott will get in at the next election and throw this tax out. What’s all the fuss about? The continued cycle of wasting taxpayers money continues.

    • Damocles says:

      01:50pm | 14/09/11

      Totally agree GC! Abbott will be voted back in in a landslide against this lie of a government, he will then rid us of this carbon (wealth redistribution) tax on everything. Gillard/ Brown/ Windsor/ Oakeshott/ Wilke will be all bad history at the next election and all your unwanted policies will be rolled back…....in the immortal words of the red head…..“Bring it on!”

    • Richard the Lionheart says:

      08:48am | 14/09/11

      In the UK, taxpayers are reeling from daily hidden spin -offs from carbon tax outcomes. It has not created employment as most of the windmills etc are made in Europe ... visual polution dots the landscape now. Fortunately the grid still has nuclear power. This will be another expensive NBN type bungle that the Labor Party is so famous for. I still say that voters will be more worried about food on their table than carbon by 2050.

    • acotrel says:

      09:24am | 14/09/11

      @Richard
      ‘This will be another expensive NBN type bungle that the Labor Party is so famous for “

      I’m not aware that the NBN project is a ‘bungle’ !  Is this going to be like the BER ‘rorts’ which were never found to have happened ? Surely it’s time you broke free from your daddy’s politics, and thought for yourself ?

    • Fred says:

      01:30pm | 14/09/11

      Acotrel, for you to say that the BER ‘rorts’ never happened shows beyond any doubt you are an absolute liar. Even official enquires found they occurred. Remember the enquiry feedback held back until AFTER the last election! You know, the election where Juliars swindled gullible voters with her infamous lie, ‘their will be NO carbon tax under a government I lead”.

    • MarkS says:

      08:59am | 14/09/11

      Just as the medium is part of the message, so sometimes the messenger is the message. Pyne if you told me the sun rises in the east I would know you were wrong.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      01:09pm | 14/09/11

      So MarkS what you’re saying is the even if the facts are correct you will just blindly tow the Labor Party line no matter what ???

    • B says:

      11:04am | 14/09/11

      @Disraeli

      So now we are taking biased journalism as truth are we???

    • Disraeli says:

      01:02pm | 14/09/11

      I suggest you read what I said.

      I described it correctly as her view. The parts of it I know something about are correct.

      Rather than trying to sneak loaded words into my mouth, try reading her piece for yourself and make up your own mind.

    • SimpleSimon says:

      09:20am | 14/09/11

      This coming from a member of the party that pushed through WorkChoices in exactly the same way? Sorry, Christopher Pyne, but you’re a hypocrite. When the coalition was in Government you did exactly the same thing.

    • NightStalker says:

      09:21am | 14/09/11

      gillard’s legacy or historical note, really almost a by-line will be noted for pillaging and plundering Australia through numerous blunders!  In this country we may well say God Save the Queen, for nothing more will save the prime minister!  Its all over baby, gillard your last roll of your loaded dice (note greens and independents) is about to happen as your try to screw the Australian people into poverty for a tax we don’t need!

    • Phill says:

      09:32am | 14/09/11

      JuLiar is just making things worse for herself. 
      Say “No Carbon Tax” before the election then introduce one. Deny saying you said that before the election for months.  Then try to rush the legislation through without time for thourough debate and scrutiny so it looks like a backdoor job.
      JuLiar, if you want Australia’s respect stop trying to look like you are hiding something.

    • Anna C says:

      09:50am | 14/09/11

      “It has been reported that the Greens will use their numbers in alliance with the Government to guillotine debate and ensure the Bills are passed.”

      The Labor and the Greens should be ashamed of themselves for stymieing debate on this issue. I thought we were supposed to be a democracy for heaven’s sakes?  More fool me I guess for thinking that we were.

    • Rose says:

      10:41am | 14/09/11

      So you also agree that Pyne should be ashamed of himself for being a member of the government that rushed through the Workchoices legislation with even less debate. I know many people who suffered more from Workchoices than they ever will from Carbon Pricing. The Liberal Party and their fans are such hypocrits.

    • Anna C says:

      11:16am | 14/09/11

      I agree with you Rose, that debate in parliament should not be stymied by any political party including the Liberals.

      For the record I wasn’t a fan of Work Choices either.

    • B says:

      02:39pm | 14/09/11

      @Rose

      This isnt about workchoices.  That was 4 years ago now.  Build a bridge and get over it.

    • I hate pies says:

      03:13pm | 14/09/11

      Apparently because the Libs rushed the workchoices legislation through it’s now alright for Labor to do the same…here I was thinking the lefties have the moral highground…guess it’s only when it suits them.

    • Joan says:

      09:50am | 14/09/11

      Rushing headlong is Gillards forte- she did so from day one with overnight knifing of peoples PM Rudd, say anything `No carbon Tax` lie, and her any old deal will do with Greens and independents. or ET solution now the messed up Malaysian solution- one big rush to another - nothing done properly, voter desires stomped over in her big rush, Australias confidence in the future direction it is being taken,  crushed by Gillad rush to implement bad policy.

    • Tubesteak says:

      09:51am | 14/09/11

      “After a piece of legislation is introduced into the Parliament, it is then carefully considered by the appropriate Shadow Minister, who consults widely with stakeholders and other experts to examine how the Government’s changes will impact upon everyday Australians.”

      That is complete and utter bollocks.

      Politicians are there to manipulate and deceive to win votes and personal gain.

      You are one of the prime examples of this.

    • fairsfair says:

      10:03am | 14/09/11

      Get your hand off it Pyne - you are a hypocrite. If the shoe was on the other food you’d be doing the exact same thing. As Robert reminded us in the open thread yesterday - you have done the exact same thing in the past.

      I am dead against this tax, but that argument just does not fly.

    • Mickey T says:

      10:45am | 14/09/11

      Cry me a river Christopher Pyne…here’s a handkerchief for your tears.

      You weren’t crying when the LNP had control of both houses of parliament and were rushing legislation through willy nilly… work-choices ring any bells Christopher?

      Go and cry in the corner Pyne, you’re a pathetic excuse for a politician, Australia deserves better than the likes of your ilk.

    • BJA says:

      10:54am | 14/09/11

      These LNP blokes have very short memories.

    • PaulC says:

      10:59am | 14/09/11

      Chris, if you spent more time reading the legislation and less time whinging about it…

    • PaulC says:

      11:00am | 14/09/11

      Chris, if you spent more time reading the legislation and less time whinging about it…

    • PaulC says:

      11:00am | 14/09/11

      Chris, if you spent more time reading the legislation and less time whinging about it…

    • Damocles says:

      01:37pm | 14/09/11

      Gotta a bit of a stutter there PaulC, or do you think if you say the same shit over and over again you think it legitamises your daft statement?

    • mick says:

      11:51am | 14/09/11

      Get real Chris.  Your Party is going to give big business a huge handout if your Party is successful at the next election and ask ordinary struggling Australians to pay for it.  The Carbon Tax is but one issue where your Party will look after the big end of town at the expense of those Australians who make this country what it is.
      I find your misleading rhetoric and the misleading propaganda campaign which your leader has embarked on a disgrace.  It is not the Australian way and the Party will only end up being discredited by its behaviour.

    • The Guardian says:

      12:23pm | 14/09/11

      So Christopher (Chrissie) Pyne is upset that the legislation is being rammed through.Talk about hypocrasy. Abbott has already declared he will repeal it if he wins government. So whats the arguement? “Lets have an election” he cries,the self confessed “Iron Man/Marathon man” appears to be merely a MINUTE MAN who is unwilling to go the distance.The man who considers himself to be a “tough guy” wants the fight awarded on points in round 3.In my experience the guy who considers himself to be tough is usually weak as piss! Chritopher based on experience is Abbott a minute man? LOL

    • old fart says:

      12:41pm | 14/09/11

      hint for the debate Chrissie,  carbon dioxide is CO2 not NO2

    • davo says:

      12:33pm | 14/09/11

      I think the Government got in on a lie and now wont even admit it. Chris I agree with you fully.
      In addition to that, Andrew Wilkie you have a big strip of yellow down your back—I have a good idea, why not link your policy for pokie machines to the Governments Carbon tax bills?—Mr Wilkie you are a fool if you think by giving them a carbon tax and then you asking for pokie reform its going to happen. ha ha you are not a good poly at all

    • scumbag says:

      12:35pm | 14/09/11

      Poor little petal Christopher. The time you spent writing this bloat, could have been studiously examining this leglislation. Get back to your desk!

      And get a haircut!

    • Dman says:

      01:54pm | 14/09/11

      Not enough time for debate - but yesterday when the debate started almost all of the Coalition members picked up their toys and left the chamber! 

      I guess you all had something more important to do than participate in a debate which is so important that more time should be devoted to it.  Or was it mass incontinence?

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      02:33pm | 14/09/11

      Come off it, Christopher Pyne!
      Either you have a very short memory span or you think we have!
      When the Liberals were in power with their National Party runt - just as the ALP is today with it’s nasty little runt the Greens -  they had control of the Senate. You & your Party did not think twice about bulldozing legislation through the House of Reps & then the Senate without even allowing any debate whatsoever. Your draconian WorkChoices, created by the now Member for Mayo, J Briggs when he was Howard’s Senior Industrial Relations Advisor, was pushed through in record time. There was no debate. The Coalition abused it’s power in the most shameful way.So, Chrissy, don’t you dare hypocritically criticise the current ALP-Greens Coalition & the way they are bringing in their new tax legislation. They learnt their lessons well from the greatest experts in under-hand, dishonest, abuse of the Federal Parliament: The Coalition under Howard.
      At least the ALP-Greens Coalition are allowing some debate even if it is not as much as you now claim you want.
      As I have said before, Chrissy, Karma has a way of coming back to bight you on the arse when you least expect it.
      When the conservative Coalition Parties can honestly claim to be squeaky-clean, allow for open, honest debate & indeed Government then & only then can it’s members criticise the current loathsome Gillard-Brown Federal Government.
      P.S. I have only once in my life voted for the ALP, never for the Greens & now will probably never vote for the Liberals or Nationals. I always did before.

    • Holly says:

      04:23pm | 14/09/11

      We’ve already read the coalitions speeches in the totally misleading “cheat sheets” available online.  Please spare us umpteen repetitions of this drivel.  The only speech I would be interested to hear would be that of Malcolm Turnbull - that is if he decides to make one.

    • Horns Up says:

      07:39pm | 14/09/11

      I agree the coalition should put Australia first, sack Abbott and put Turnbull in charge.

      Abbott is only interested power for the sake of power not the future of all Australians.

      \m/

    • left turn only says:

      04:25pm | 14/09/11

      The Carbon Tax will be passed and approved by both Australian Houses Of Parliament and become law on July 1 2012 during the London 2012 Olympics!
      The next Australian federal election is in September 2013 whic h Labor will win.
      Mr Pyne cannot pick the wood from the trees or the forest from the trees.

    • Left Turn Only says:

      04:37pm | 14/09/11

      Mr Pyne
      you cannot see the wood from the trees.
      you don’t want to be the tallest tree in the forest
      Thanks

    • TheRaptured says:

      07:15pm | 14/09/11

      About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.

      - Sir Isaac Newton

    • Joel B1 says:

      05:36pm | 16/09/11

      Love the rabid comments from the anti-democracy lefties!

 

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