Killer by night, mild-mannered toiler by day

Macca says:

09:18am | 02/12/10

Agreed. Stop treating everyone like idiots.

Also; The greatest video game of all time is still Zelda: Ocarina of time.

AdamC says:

10:33am | 02/12/10

Macca,

I agree on both counts.

TimB says:

11:38am | 02/12/10

:O Macca! Yes! I have not seen an opinion on these boards that I agree with more.

12 years at the top of the Gamerankings &  Metacritic charts doesn’t lie.

Utter perfection in video game form.

Can’t wait for the 3DS version next year.

Tom says:

11:41am | 02/12/10

Ocarina of Time? You are obviously too young to have experienced a Link to the Past then.

Cloud Strife says:

11:49am | 02/12/10

I don’t think I have played a bad Zelda game, they’re all awesome.

Except for those Phillip CD-I Games *shudders*

“I WONDER WHAT’S FOR DINNER?”

TimB says:

12:03pm | 02/12/10

@ Tom, I’ve played a Link to the Past. I’ve played every Zelda game ever released.

ALttP Is great and probably the best of the 2D Zelda’s but Ocarina is still tops. Majora’s Mask runs a close second.

TimB says:

12:05pm | 02/12/10

@ Cloud Strife- What CD-i games? No such abominations exist. I’ll kill anyone who claims otherwise.

....Who says video games incite violence?

Budz says:

01:32pm | 02/12/10

Clearly you guys never played Commander Keen back in the day!

Zeta says:

01:40pm | 02/12/10

CD-I? Luxury. I won a 3DO in a competition when I was 10. Enjoyed having no games. Never won a gaming related competition ever again.

Robin says:

03:54pm | 02/12/10

Sad really! 50 odd years old and love WoW been playing for years, have 3 yr old to adult children and a senior management position.
Was a combat soldier for many years and now some idiots claim i will have a tendency for aggression!
Bad Bad Video games!!!

Macca says:

04:14pm | 02/12/10

@Budz, Holy Crap! Commander Keen was amazing!!!

Ben C says:

09:05am | 02/12/10

Tom “The net gain from this is I don’t have to get my arse kicked all over the shop by a clan of smart-arse, abusive 11 year olds who are for some reason allowed to play COD at 3am in the morning!”

Could be worse, could be a bunch of 11 year old noobs who don’t have a clue how to play the game and just make it boring as hell for the rest of us, picking them off in between 10 minute naps…

DFB says:

10:41am | 02/12/10

Yeah!

Gazman says:

01:36pm | 02/12/10

Anthropologically we are teritorial hunter gatherers. Since we no longer have to hunt for food and war with our neighbours (except on a global scale), we need to fulfull this need virtually.

There will never be a cure for the demand because it is who we are

Susan says:

12:07pm | 02/12/10

If there is a difference between ‘actually’ playing a game of cowboys and indians in the backyard [and I’m not saying there is - I didn’t play cowboys and indians as a kid and I don’t play video games (does solitaire count?) now] it would be that there was the possibility of actually being hurt playing C&I (a next door neighbour of ours lost an eye when he got poked with an arrow!) but the only pain you are likely to suffer playing video games is a sore thumb and a numb bum.

Reg says:

04:38pm | 02/12/10

Because the word J*p is politically incorrect. Though proficiency at billiards was once regarded as the sign of a mis-spent youth.  If advertising works, then so does the planned impact of violent games.

It has been shown that although the recipient of propaganda may initially dismiss the validity of the source, after a while he forgets the fact that he discounted that authority, and subconsciously adopts the suggestion. That’s why faux liberal propaganda works, if it’s said often enough by different people, after a while we forget who said it and adopt what was said.  It’s also why there are so many faux liberals at the top of the page. They’ve burnt out their brains on video games.

hugh says:

10:37am | 02/12/10

sword of a thousand truths

Bellows says:

11:04am | 02/12/10

paper of a thousand cuts

Fred Gherkin says:

11:34am | 02/12/10

You’re talking about killing the gamers now?

Foxe says:

12:31pm | 02/12/10

flip the switch, my good man, and kill that light.

MarK says:

02:44pm | 02/12/10

the cake is a lie anyway

Zeta says:

04:18pm | 02/12/10

goback2b

Lee says:

12:42pm | 02/12/10

Atkinson was a dinosaur. I cannot believe he used the Wii as an example of family entertainment. Clearly he didnt have a clue what he was talking about as COD MW2 came out on Wii.

Dazza says:

03:56pm | 02/12/10

You just wonder if the rest of the State AGs were quite happy when Atkinson was around so that he could take all the heat on the issue while they ducked and weaved.

St. Michael says:

11:12am | 02/12/10

Thank you, Killer Queen.  You have reignited my faith that not all Baby Boomers are in fact worthless. :D :D

Brian says:

11:15am | 02/12/10

If that IS the games causing that desire, I suggest you play more.

As for Fallout New Vegas, the sight of a giant or queen radscorpion charging you is definitely NOT for kiddies. The first time I ran into one (who had snuck up on me) I literally pushed my chair back several inches when I turned to see what had hit me. I may have shouted something vulgar too, come to think of it.

dancan says:

11:52am | 02/12/10

Damn giant radscorpions!  The only thing worse are those nasty Cazadors >:O

AdamC says:

12:15pm | 02/12/10

Love Fallout New Vegas, but the PS3 version was so buggy I almost exploded with frustration. (Crash bugs definitely cause violent thoughts!)

And I agree that it’s not for kiddies. As well as the atmospherics and violence (isn’t it wonderful when both heads and limbs are blown off your enemies with just one shot?) some of the themes are also quite heavy. That was also the case with Dragon Age: Origins, a sort of dark fantasy RPG that I played earlier in the year that got adult ratings in other countries. Here, it actually had a wider audience as a result of our silly, no 18+ games policy.

PS, re New Vegas again, I don’t think you know fear until you have blundered across a dethclaw. Those things are tough.

Matthew says:

12:26pm | 02/12/10

I know someone who’s probably pushing 75 that used to enjoy Max Payne and still enjoys first person shooters.  Unfortunately he can only cope with single player as the young kids are too quick for him (He could probably beat me though and I’m 23 >.<)

He’s been a consistent gamer since Transylvania (1986 or something) and has enjoyed games like Myst, Age of Empires, Wolfenstein, Max Payne and many many others. =P

I just hope I’m still happily gaming when I’ve got 1 foot in the grave!

Killer Queen says:

12:31pm | 02/12/10

It’s the ants in Fallout NV that get me.. far too much like spiders. makes me think of the old Lands of Lore games .. I used to have to get someone to sort the spider out for me!

Brian says:

12:56pm | 02/12/10

I ran across a deathclaw near Red Rock Canyon when I tried to go there early game with my ‘evil slaver’ character. Who uses Melee weapons.

I had the joy of watching it slaughter the gangers who were about to kill me while running for my life. Unfortunately those things are fast! However, visually they are nowhere near the ‘What the heck is that’ factor of a Radscorpion for me.

Zeta says:

01:51pm | 02/12/10

Playing Fallout: New Vegas on hardcore mode. God tier difficulty - make character look like Keith Richards, become addicted to all the drugs. Heading back to Novac with Boone, my ultimate bro, sniping fools everywhere. Looking for bro fist button.

Get withdrawls and run out of drugs. Boone says ‘you need to lay off the chems’.

Suddenly, Deathclaws everywhere. Boone kills three, I can’t hit jack because I have 0 agility from withdrawl symptoms. Boone gets the last one down to nearly dead, then gets his head smashed off.

Punch deathclaw to death. Look at Boone’s body. Cry manly tears.

Got cured, give up drugs, whiskey, gambling, and join the NCR.

I love you bro. I miss you bro. I’ll wear your red beret forever.

jim says:

07:02am | 07/12/10

No I don’t. Perhaps it because the urge to slap politicians is a reasonable response to their behaviour.
I don’t even play violent video games, although I know several rather nice, seemingly normal people who do ( seemingly normal: they have functional lives and haven’t been arrested for gbh) but I often get the urge to slap a few politicians and I think that’s because I am an intelligent, experienced, honest person who is affronted by hypocrisy.

Sav says:

01:01pm | 02/12/10

Bitch please, you’re Cloud Strife, you shouldn’t be wielding a Keyblade in the first place. :D

Cloud Strife says:

01:32pm | 02/12/10

@Sav

MY TERRIBLE SECRET!

Now I shall go an emo while writing terrible poems about Sephiroth.

And Zack.

Human says:

03:46pm | 02/12/10

Kanye Pest and Lady Gag Gag - all those tools of mainstream media corrupt children. Turn them into wanna-be thugs, players, hos and gaping gag gag whores in meat dresses. Filling their impressionable minds with filth and stupidity. We need more intelligent heroes and role-models for children… not brain-dead morons.

Cousin Cactus says:

04:22pm | 02/12/10

Human, I get your point, but terrible examples.
One being that Kanye West is a saint… a ****ing saint, his recent album is an absolute blessing for the musical world, mainstream and underground alike.

Lady Gaga is a talented but very strange unit.

Try Katy Perry.

Jacob says:

10:55am | 02/12/10

nooo they are just training us for the zombie apocalypse.

MJ says:

11:07am | 02/12/10

So doesn’t that make sense to have an R rating to keep those games out of a child’s reach, rather than an M rating where parents will buy it, “because its M, it must be ok”

BT says:

11:23am | 02/12/10

@MJ my answer to that would be “sorta but not really”. I am not one for censorship, in fact I’m a massive fan of WikiLeaks and what they are doing right now, but people don’t realise what they are doing to their mental health. I think people should make informed decisions - but what this article seems to suggest is that gaming is completely harmless, when independent evidence suggests it is not, for all ages not just children. I don’t pretend to be an expert and have all the answers, but it seems to follow logic that when you know something is potentially harmful to yourself or another, you would instinctively like to avoid it.

Drolly says:

11:31am | 02/12/10

Dr Wayne form Warburton should spend more time on something that will help our society.
Introducing R18 games will in fact protect our children why?? because they are not 18 you twits.
its like saying lets ban r18 movies because it is bad for children… Canyou see the logic in this…absolute twits i tell ya

BT says:

11:52am | 02/12/10

@Drolly - relax pal. I venture to say that Dr Wayne (not FROM) Warburton is a bit more qualified than your good self to comment on these things, but I’ll leave that up to you two to debate. My point is not whether they should be for U18’s or whatever, my point was that they are purposefully designed to dehumanise others. Whether you are aged 5, 15, 30 or 100 that sort of agenda is bad news for all concerned. And please note that I do not resort to abusive name-calling to make my point.

Trjn says:

12:20pm | 02/12/10

Why would video game developers make games with such an agenda? You’re making a lot of claims that simply cannot be backed up.

Also, it’s worth noting that the way Dr Warburton measured increased aggression was by having people dish our chili sauce to an unseen (an non-existent) person who did not like spicy food and had to eat whatever was dished up. Considering that people have done worse things simply because they were instructed to by an authority figure, such as delivering lethal doses of electricity to unseen (and again non-existent) victims, I question the validity of that as a method of showing a causal link between video games and long term aggression.

BT says:

01:07pm | 02/12/10

@Trjn, points for trying. You typed in Wayne Warburton into Google Scholar and found one paper he did - something totally unrelated to gaming. He did other studies too you know…*shakes head*. I already made my point, governments use gaming as a soft method of training for actual war. Please READ my previous posts, my points are clear.

Drolly says:

01:19pm | 02/12/10

I am sure Wayne Warbutin from macquirie is more qualified than me in these matters I am not trying to say he is not. But why is he doing studies on on the affects of R18 games on Children?? Kind of sounds like a waste of time don’t you think?? These games are not for children because we dont need a Dr telling us its not good for children… We know this thats why we want it labelled as R18! I just think this is a waste of time an energy.

If what you are saying is true then the same can be said aout the violent movies and tv shows an other media that potray death and violence. you want to ban them aswell??

So are you saying that the game developers are designing games to desensitise us from killing another human being? you think there is a conspiracy here? Game developers around the worl are colluding with military institutes to make us more efficient killers…pfft

If Dr Wayne Warbaton’s findings held any merit dont you think the r18 ratings would have been banned.

This issue has been going on for quite sometime now and our government has invested a lot of time and money and they have come to the conclusion that it is no different from r18 movies and other media.

You say “Dr Wayne Warburton from Macquarie Uni Psych Dept has done a lot of studies into aggression in children who play these games”

What do you think we are rallying for?? to make sure these types games are not available for children… Again how is this relevant to this article…WE ALL dont want children to play these games!

I look forward to buying my r18 games in australia and not online so i can keep my hard earnt dollars in Australia….

drolly says:

01:34pm | 02/12/10

BT you say “I don’t pretend to be an expert and have all the answers, but it seems to follow logic that when you know something is potentially harmful to yourself or another, you would instinctively like to avoid it.”

Come on everything we do has the potential to harm, are you saying we should all live in bubbles? Dont drive a car cause you can have an accident, dont fly a plane cause it can crash, dont go to work cause some one might wig out pull out a gun and shoot everyone in the room? Dont allow violent games cause it might desensitise you to killing?! Come one mate *Shaking my Head*

Define potential for me? can you be more indicative? like say 30% more likely to cause children who shouldn’t be playing the game anyway to be more violent.

Why on earth would these game developers want to desensitise us from death and killing more so than the movies and books we already read…

HAHAHA and I highly doubt that our Federal Government is trying to turn us into sensless warriors by introducing R18 classification. I also highly doubt that they even communicate with the game developers out there everytime they create a game.

Stop trying to make something out of nothing….*still shaking his head*

Trjn says:

01:39pm | 02/12/10

Governments have no control over what games developers create. With the exception of America’s Army, which is funded by the Department of Defense as a recruitment tool, not a training tool. So how can governments do what you claim?

If video games are training my brain for war, then they’re also training them for music (Rock Band), driving (Gran Turismo), fighting (Street Fighter), parkour (Mirror’s Edge) and a whole host of other things. I can safely say I’m not very good at any of those, with the exception of driving which I’m reasonably decent at but have limited video game experience and lots of real world experience.

As for Dr Warbuton’s methods, the point I was raising was more that the ways of measuring aggression are inconsistent at best. I’ve read meta-analysis which point out this fact, you can use Google Scholar to find them if you like.

The example of people delivering electricity to a victim because they are instructed to is extremely similar to the examples I’ve been able to find of how aggression has been measured. This casts some serious doubts in my mind into how valid the data they gather is.

So in summary, I read your previous posts, your points are not clear, they are at best a muddled conspiracy theory.

Grant says:

01:57pm | 02/12/10

@ BT

Interesting Bt, other studies testing the link between habitual violent video game exposure and aggression indicate that violent behaviour cannot simply occur through this one activity.  All children and young adults bring with them a collective life experience, both positive and negative, shaped by the environment of family, school, peers, community, and culture.

Out of that collective experience come values, prejudices, biases, emotions, and children’s responses to stress and authority and behaviour is affected by the entire range of experiences and influences.  No one factor is decisive.

A recent US Secret Service study found that 12 percent of those involved in school shootings were attracted to violent video games, while 24 percent were attracted to violent books and 27 percent were attracted to violent films.  An Australian study found that only children already predisposed to violence were affected by violent games.

A lot of the research actually indicates the opposite of what you have stated.  Video-gaming can lead to substantial gains in teamwork, managing groups and problem solving. 

- The Final Report and Findings of the Safe School Initiative: on the safe school initiative’ produced by the United States Secret Service and United States Department of Education at http://www.treas.gov/usss/ntac/ssi_final_report.pdf

- The School Shooter: A THREAT ASSESSMENT PERSPECTIVE produced by Critical Incident Response Group (CIRG) National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) FBI Academy http://www.fbi.gov/publications/school/school2.pdf

- Anderson, C.A., & Huesmann, L.R. (in press). Human Aggression: A Social-Cognitive View. Chapter to appear in M.A. Hogg & J. Cooper (Eds.), Handbook of Social Psychology. London: Sage Publications.

- Rosenthal, R. (1986). Media violence, antisocial behavior, and the social consequences of small effects. Journal of Social Issues

- Lee, M. (2001). The genesis of ‘fear of crime’. Theoretical Criminology

Jordan Rastrick says:

02:24pm | 02/12/10

BT, as far as I’ve ever been aware the empirical case for a causal link between video games and real world violence is ambiguous at best and essentially non-existant at worst.

Care to link to Dr Warburton’s actual papers on the matter so we can review the science for ourselves?

BT says:

02:43pm | 02/12/10

@Grant, I’m going to discount your sources, primarily because two are government bodies with agendas and the others are seemingly irrelevant to gaming.
@Drolly, yes I am saying the US military DOES help design and fund these violent war games. They invented America’s Army as a recruiting tool which is based on actual war scenarios. That’s why they give it away FREE. Must be some pay off for their efforts don’t you think?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4460082.stm

Alexander says:

02:56pm | 02/12/10

Dear me BT, and poor Dr Warburton too.  Sound awfully like a study designed to prove a point.  I know my ‘inhibition to kill’ has been eroded by hunting and fishing for food and several years of mixed martial arts training once you are no longer paralysed by fear when presented with a fight-or-flight situation you can make choices. 
Also, you know the amazing thing about children, of an indeterminate but quite probably very young age… they really do have trouble telling truth from fantasy.  Children don’t even understand about lying until they are about 4.  Without providing details on the study, referencing it is simply pulling numbers out of your donkey.

Dan the bounty hunter says:

03:09pm | 02/12/10

Where’s BT? I was enjoying his arrogant, I know everything and you’re an idiot, attitude, especially when he made that classic high handed comment of “note how I don’t have to resort to insulting you”, as if the entire attitude is not insulting in itself.

I also think its interesting that our government is turning us into senseless killers deliberately to make us better soldiers… Having had some experience in the military I would say two things
1. Senseless killers don’t make good soldiers
2. Wars these days are starting to be fought more by machines than men and that will continue, so our Govt is a bit late.

drolly says:

03:40pm | 02/12/10

@ BT - last i checked this article is for Australian Calssification.
And yes we all know that the AMERICAN army have developed this game as a recruiting tool for American citizens.
ERM relevance to Australia and our Goverment ZERO!
You are now back peddling.
You said “I already made my point, governments use gaming as a soft method of training for actual war.”
Now the American Government in NO way represents governments all over the world.
You also went on to drivvle “They invented America’s Army as a recruiting tool which is based on actual war scenarios. That’s why they give it away FREE. Must be some pay off for their efforts don’t you think? “
Yeah the pay off ispotentially more recruits?!? Its not rocket science. Mate its a tool to recruit more soldiers thats what it was designed for and there is no hidden agenda this was clearly stated when they released it.

Dont try and take things out of context and run away with it.

What you are trying to say is gaming developers are working with the governments to desensitise the population.
I say you are aderanged dolt!

You are clutching at straws…..

Enough mate let it go…  just let it go….
We heard what you have had to say and we have shot holes through your reasoning….Elloquence does not beget intelligence…

I close with the famous words of BABE.

That will be all pig!

BT says:

03:57pm | 02/12/10

@Dan, well first I’m female. Second, I did psychology in my first year of uni with Dr Warburton, third I too have some military experience. And I can resort to verbal abuse if you like - but doesn’t exactly do anything for the argument does it? To address your first point, the first thing they teach you when you enter the military is to obey, no matter what. That’s the point. You are stripped of everything and must conform or be punished. To address your second point, you are actually confirming what I am saying. War is increasingly being waged via electronic simulator typed machines - it is being waged in a manner similar to a video game. See the WikiLeaks video leak of the US soldiers shooting innocent media and citizens - “LIGHT EM UP” the pilot screams as if he is shooting video characters not actual human beings.

BT says:

04:03pm | 02/12/10

@ Drolly, perhaps you should go take your meds buddy. Why are you making this a personal attack? Seems your abusive tone may prove my point. The relevance to the Australian government was that, if you read the article, the Australian Federal government released new “evidence” that gaming was fine. Perhaps since Australia is currently allies with the US in a WAR you might finally understand what I’m trying to say.

Jordan says:

05:15pm | 02/12/10

Still waiting on that link to the actual research you’re basing your argument on, BT…..

Grant says:

08:43am | 03/12/10

@ BT

I can link about 30 other scholarly books, articles and papers from respected and recognised people and national or international organisations, universities and non government bodies which have done research on this issue. 

Which all contradict everything you have written.  Places like Cambridge, Griffith UNI, UQ, Harvard, the UN.  I can link if you require. 

But clearly, rational well thought out statements backed by evidence is not your cup of tea.

LC says:

01:35pm | 22/12/10

BT,

Most studies into the topic of video games causing violence, even several with the sole purpose of finding a link, have found that videogames do not cause violence. The closest they’ve come is violent feelings for a few minutes after playing, which is obvious because people would be thinking about what they’d just been playing. Dig a little deeper, and you’ll find a similar effect is shared with competitive sport, where some positive aggression is needed to perform. Basically all that proves is before you ban videogames, you gotta ban everything from V8 supercars and Cricket to AFL and Rugby.

Only a handful of studies concluded otherwise, but guess what, the researchers are all mates! They’ve also been discredited for messing with results to suit their personal agendas. If you can’t back up your comments with peer-reviewed evidence (especially when you claim they are everywhere), then all you have is a irrelevant, worthless opinion.

Macca says:

12:36pm | 02/12/10

It’s about the teamwork and social side of it too. Plus apparently seeing your own character die releases some chemical into the brain which is addictive.

Zeta says:

01:54pm | 02/12/10

I agree. That’s why my favourite game right now is Amnesia: Dark Descent. You’re basically this dude with no skills at all locked in a mansion with The Things That Should Not Be from Beyond Space And Time, and if you even look at the shuffling horrors that crawl at you you start going made and the walls grow eyes. Your only weapons are like, chairs, that you can make barricades with.

It’s awesome.

hot tub political machine says:

02:24pm | 02/12/10

I saw the trailer for that one featuring actual gameplay – looked freaky as anything. So much so I might find it too intense to be fun, ever play Aliens Vs Predator (the old one from the 90’s). When the facehuggers jumped on to the screen in that one I used to literally jump back from my desk.

These days I’m an RPG/Football manager fan

I can see the social appeal of the shooters, the one time I played shooters with a lan it was riot hearing each other laughing from the other rooms around the house

Samson says:

03:56pm | 02/12/10

Just looked up Amnesia on wikipedia.  Woah!  How did I not hear about this?

I think I’ll re-read The Rats in the Walls tonight and then buy this game immediately.

Zeta says:

04:04pm | 02/12/10

@ Amnesia - Because it’s a great, independent game made by scrappy outsiders who aren’t making any money because of piracy.

Huh? says:

01:00pm | 02/12/10

Another example of irony is if someone explaining an issue involving language use made a spelling error.

Seth Brundle says:

01:56pm | 02/12/10

There is no “real” meaning for irony.  Wikipedia quotes Henry Watson Fowler on this subject: “any definition of irony—though hundreds might be given, and very few of them would be accepted—must include this, that the surface meaning and the underlying meaning of what is said are not the same”.  I believe the author of the article was using irony to highlight the incongruity that Christian lobby groups (formed of people who’s entire belief system, many would argue, is based on a severe inability to differentiate between fantasy and reality ) fear that gamers may exhibit the very same behaviour as the lobby groups themselves clearly already do.
As for the example of irony you offered, I believe that would have been best described as a “pleasant surprise”.

Blackadder says:

01:21pm | 02/12/10

41y/o here. Wife and family. Bank Manager. Gamer since my teens, starting with VIC20, C64 and so on. Of an evening, avid gamer. My mid-30’s younger brother was in awe the other night as I clicked over 10,000 kills in PvP battlegrounds in WoW, on a 2nd in-game character. Over 20,000 kills all up. On that premise, I guess I’m a mass murder in real life, and due for death row. Interestingly, I know the difference between a game and real-life…and the game is actually for stress relief and escape for the stresses in the real world. Not the other way round as a certain SA beauracrat would have you believe.

Ditto to BCD…bugger off, leave us alone, and let us make our own decisions.

braunman says:

11:21am | 02/12/10

Sorry but I couldn’t let the statement about Rapelay pass without comment.

While Rapelay is abhorrent, you have to keep in mind several things:

1. It has never been commercially available in Australia.

2. It never been commercially available outside Japan.

3. Even if the R rating was introduced, it will still never be allowed in Australia. The game is treated as hardcore porn and, as such, is not covered in the R rating. Not only that, but porn of that nature is banned in Australia anyway for good reason.

4. It has never been available in Australia. I know I mentioned this already but it is such an important piece of information that it is worth repeating.

Brian says:

11:29am | 02/12/10

Indeed, Rapelay was an extreme example. Of course, it would have been refused an R18+ classification even if one was available - currently it would be banned because it’s not appropriate for a 15 year old, whereas if R18+ existed it would be banned because it’s not appropriate for anyone, much like violent pornography already is.

Few people are claiming that there is not one person out there who could be affected by violent video games into becoming violent themselves. What they (and I) generally are saying is that while an infinitesimally small number of grown adults may be effected adversely by these games, this effect is significantly lower than those likely to be effected by (for example) movies, television shows, internet sites, shooting clubs, martial arts training, sports (white line fever) and just plain being nuts. If we want to single out violent video games, we should limit all of these things too.

In any case, the lack of the category makes little sense. If we, as a society, decide that violent games should not be allowed, even for adults, we should rate them as higher than R18+, hence refusing them classification anyway. By not having the category we are saying that there is no noticeable difference in the level of maturity of a 15 year old and an 18 year old when it comes to computer games.

Many of those who offend after playing violent games would have done so anyway, and personally I find that playing them makes me want to hurt real people LESS, as whenever I’m frustrated at something I can stomp on some goombas, shoot some ghouls or run over a couple of fire hydrants to get it out.

In summary: The classification should exist. The debate on what games are allowed should focus on which category (including R/C) a game fits into, not what categories we should have. Most nutters are just nutters. Maybe some of them are actually helped by the release.

Cloud Strife says:

11:31am | 02/12/10

Then don’t you agree that these games should not be available to people under the age of 18?

A lot of parents seem to think that it’s ‘just video games’ and will buy their 10 year olds brutal games, that they should not be playing. My parents used to personally vet any movies I want to see, and if I ever have kids, I would want to know what that game was all about before I let them play it. For instance, my Dad wouldn’t let me watch Temple of Doom, because he knew it would be too scary for me as a kid. Meanwhile, my brother in law buys God of War for my SIX YEAR OLD nephew. R Ratings on games would hopefully make these parents think twice.

Trjn says:

11:34am | 02/12/10

Except there’s no evidence to show that this is more true for video games than any other medium.

Let’s look at Rapelay, a game that has not been released outside of Japan, has been cited as an example of a game that would still be refused classification if an R18+ classification was introduced to Australia and the majority of people who have played it did so because of the media circus highlighting it as a terrible game.

Of the people who played this game, can you find any examples of people who displayed the characteristics you described? Were any of those people showing those same characteristics prior to having played the game? Would the answers to those questions have been the same if Rapelay was a movie instead of a video game?

The argument is that video games are no different than any other medium. Yes, fictional works can alter your attitudes and beliefs, both positively and negatively. They can also reinforce existing beliefs by showing you examples of people who agree with those beliefs.

There will always be people in society who do things which are unacceptable to most, that was true before video games, it will continue to be true after video games are no longer played.

nick says:

12:26pm | 02/12/10

“but for some people as they become desensitised to the idea that certain people are “less than” them becomes less foreign and a little more acceptable.”

Caitlin, explaining things like this is the job of PARENTS. If someone is a psycho because their parents didn’t raise them properly to differentiate between right and wrong, fantasy and reality, then it’s not the fault of violent video games.

LC says:

02:25pm | 22/12/10

Rapelay is irrelevant to this debate; it contains sexual violence even if we get X18+ ratings for games it will still be RC. Any game which includes rape scenes would face a similar fate.

In fact, if you did some research, it is banned in every country except Japan because it was intended right from the start to be a Japanese domestic-only offering. And before you jump on your soapbox about it “normalizing violence against women and sexual assault” there, you’ll find that Japan has one of, if not THE lowest domestic crime rate on the planet.

hot tub political machine says:

12:04pm | 02/12/10

Hey Glenn,

I both agree/disagree with your comments. 1st yes rubbish on TV is worse - I’d prefer the interactive experience of a game rather than TV anyday (incidentally I play a lot of chess with a physical chess board too, because I also find that more interactive than TV),

2nd absolutely you can end up wasting a whole life on these things, but that’s not to say its all bad. I work an absurdly stressful job (I know aren’t they all - but apparently many surverys put us just behind nurses as the most likely occupation to have stress related medical problems) - so weeknights its often go home and reallyveg out. Weekends are for Sport, pretty much every single night we are both free my girlfriend and I are together, keep in touch with friends too!

But those nights when there is nothing planned, and I’m very strained from work, no one wants to play chess - well it’s sit down and game away rather than the idiot box

MarK says:

02:49pm | 02/12/10

Interesting Glenn.

So if people have an interest that you do not like or approve of they are frittering away their lives.

Good call

Ham says:

02:06pm | 02/12/10

Thats unlikely TR, considering most other developed countries have an R 18+ rating. It cost the makers of Left 4 Dead 2 quite a lot of money to modify the Australian version of the game enough to get it under the MA15+ rating.

Seth Brundle says:

02:07pm | 02/12/10

It’s an interesting suggestion, but I think that given most gamers are in their 30’s, and that they are the ones with all the disposable income, gaming companies don’t stand to lose any money from a new R rating.  I don’t know if they would make any additional money though.

Bec says:

02:50pm | 02/12/10

I’ve played everything at night when the kids are asleep from EVE online/everquest/diablo/warcraft/warhammer/ mass effect to left for dead with my husband, and we will vent our days frustrations on hordes of zombies.  Beats the crap on tv any day.

My daughter is 7 and love games like her mum.  We all play rock band together as a family, and she has a level 71 Blood elf hunter on wow that I have played a character with her over the last couple of years. 

Our daughter is allowed to play wow on weekends only, under complete supervision, chat is turned off for her, she knows not to talk to strangers or bother other players and we take her along to dungeons and make her read and figure out quests on her own.

It has done wonders for her typing and pc skills, plus she already knows to call people noobs if they stand in fire. 

Kate says:

02:07pm | 02/12/10

Nick, I think the jabs at Christians are because many people who support censorship and oppose R ratings for games are very vocal about their religious beliefs and use it as the reason why they are so pro-censorship and anti-libertarianism.

If they held those beliefs without dragging their religion into it, then nobody would mention their religion.

Seth Brundle says:

02:12pm | 02/12/10

I resent the propensity for Christians and their respective lobby groups trying to affect the legislation under which non religious people are forced to live.  What is it about religious people that they feel completely comfortable pushing their beliefs onto others?  Ever hear of the separation between church and state?  Neither has the Taliban.

Lee says:

01:08pm | 02/12/10

as adults we know in real life that what we do online is unacceptable. to impressiionable kids its a different story. I work in mediation, playing COD online is more about the social and strategy with my mates than anything. So no, I dont think this is filling my mind with aggression. This line of argument has been has hashed and rehashed.

Filou says:

01:09pm | 02/12/10

Personally I’d argue that exposing yourself to violence does increase the likelihood of you becoming violent yourself.

I have no evidence to back me up, other than the assertion that there are some books out there that condone horrible acts of violence, genocide, rape and mutilation that (in my opinion) have caused huge amounts of violent behavior.

But enough about the bible.

Filou says:

01:10pm | 02/12/10

Personally I’d argue that exposing yourself to violence does increase the likelihood of you becoming violent yourself.

I have no evidence to back me up, other than the assertion that there are some books out there that condone horrible acts of violence, genocide, rape and mutilation that (in my opinion) have caused huge amounts of violent behavior.

But enough about the bible.

Syl says:

01:47pm | 02/12/10

You are not desensitising yourself against violence.  There is a huge difference between “killing” pixels on a screen and picking up a rifle and killing someone.  The argument is bullshit and the VAST majority of studies prove it.

I saw a test once where they had a 12 year old boy who played games like COD etc almost religously.  They decided to give him a high powered rifle and allow him to shoot at a paper cutout (supervised of course).  He took his shot and scored a hit.  Then do u know what he did?  He cried..  It freaked him out THAT much.  Sounds like a killer in the making to me!

The argument that you are desensitized and are “repeatedly being rewarded and excited by death” is nonsense too.  If I saw someone gunned down in the street I, and anyone else who is not mentally unstable, would be sickened and horrified, I certainly wouldnt be excited.

Id move my concern about the harful effects of constant exposure away from gaming and towards Justin Beiber fans.  They’re the true nutters.

Zeta says:

02:04pm | 02/12/10

The studies are crucially flawed. I agree, they strengthen neural pathways, and stimulate pleasure centres when you see simulated violence.

But what you can’t measure is if people who play violent video games get the same serotonin release from performing physical acts that create equivelent real world violence.

If one of these studies were able to take a person and have them play violent video games for an extended length of time, then give them a gun, and let them shoot a real person, and measure the neural activity, we could establish wether the video games were having an impact.

But we can’t - so all your study tells us is that people who play violent video games enjoy violent video games and get better at violent video games the more they play them.

Elphaba says:

02:16pm | 02/12/10

@BT, you’re forgetting the other side of the argument here.  Many games in this country are classified incorrectly because of the lack of R18+ catagory.  They are games that kids can buy with their own money, and whilst a parent can say ‘no’, there’s no legal leg for them to stand on.  If the 15 yr old kid earns pocket money, saves it up and buys the game, the parents have little or no control over that.

An R18+ class would make these games illegal for those kids - and yes, I understand that it doesn’t mean no kids will buy them, but at least it properly classifies the media and makes it obvious for parents to see.

It’s not just about allowing older gamers access to more violent video games.  It’s about making sure that violent games are properly classified in this country, enabling parents to better exercise control over what their child consumes.  Whilst you could ban all MA15+ games, that solution is not practical, and it punishes the responsible consumers of the games.  An R18+ class helps parents to make a better informed decision, whilst enabling people who ARE of age to not be treated like babies just because a kid who had a shitty upbringing suddenly decided to shoot up a school…

@Syl - I think I saw that on Penn and Teller Bullsh*t?

MarK says:

02:43pm | 02/12/10

@BT

No

BT says:

02:50pm | 02/12/10

@Zeta, there must be a very strong reason for the US Military to spend millions upon millions in the development and FREE distribution of violent war gaming programs. It’s because it recruits and trains soldiers to kill. Their studies would be very interesting reading indeed. Pretty sure the military would not allow their soldiers to sit psychological tests for non-military personnel to do any studies like you are suggesting.
But hey, no one seems to care. The masses seem too drugged on mindless gaming violence to even listen to what I’m trying to say. It’s not exactly an unbiased forum here. So keep brainwashing yourselves guys…

Max says:

03:24pm | 02/12/10

@BT

Thats the thing, you go with the “Games are teaching our kids to kill”.

I see you know about America’s Army, and yes it is a recruitment tool. But first, go through the training (Quick hint, you HAVE to do the training) so first you have to do the obstacle course, then a different obstacle course, weapons training including how to use certain firearms (Including maintaining them and fixing jams), utilising grenades properly and learning how to work in a squad.

Its also more about how to NOT die. You can only really take 2-3 bullets, then you will die. You have to wait for the next round if you die. So this stops alot of run-and-gunners (Especially considering all your accuracy goes down the drain when you do this.) and goes for a more tactical approach into a situation. Flash bang grenades are a godsend (As they basically nullify any resistance on the opponents part) and smoke grenades not only give you a chance to move up, but also escape from a bad situation.

Hell there’s even a first-aid training mission in-case you want to be the medic of the team!

You also make the assumption that we crave death. Um. No.

Truth be told, I think most people like the “Fantasy” genre of entertainment. Because with games, we get to do things that we would NEVER be able to do in real life. I mean who wouldn’t want to bend it like Beckham? Well in FIFA 11, you can. Want to shoot a fireball from your hands? Well WoW and plenty other RPG’s have you sorted. Want to shoot someone in the face and brag about it? Call of Duty, Halo, Bad Company, etc. have you sorted.

It’s all about doing things that we could NEVER experience in real life. So please don’t assume that we love death and destruction because we love death and destruction. We love it because no matter what we do, when we’re finished, the world is still the same. There’s no bombed out houses, there’s no dead bodies, there’s no consequences to deal with. You play the game, get to do stuff that you could never do in real life, and walk away satisfied.

Now if only those people who do violent crimes could just sit down and resolve their differences over video games, that would be great!

Syl says:

04:18pm | 02/12/10

Uh BT, the game “America’s Army” you refer to is designed to teach tactics and teamwork, not how to kill.  If you believe that moving a mouse can teach you how to properly operate a high powered weapon, control your breathing and proper trigger control your an idiot.

Elphaba:  Yep thats it, ive seen it done elsewhere too.

BT says:

04:51pm | 02/12/10

@Syl, did I insult you? No. Insults are what the weakest minds resort to when they have a feeble case. Seems gamers are the most abusive people here. All you have to do is simply disagree with them and they feel some sense of entitlement to verbally abuse someone because, heaven forfend, they have a differing viewpoint. You also feel the need to imagine things that I never actually said - seems that fantasy is really getting a workout in the top paddock today…

Lee says:

05:50am | 03/12/10

There is no point trying to argue with non-gamers. they just dont get it and never will.

Syl says:

08:42am | 03/12/10

BT:

How exactly did I insult you.  I said “If you believe that moving a mouse can teach you how to properly operate a high powered weapon, control your breathing and proper trigger control your an idiot.”

Since you have taken offence I guess that means you DO think that moving a mouse can tech someone to handle a high powered weapon.  In that case, your an idiot.

If you DONT belive that to be the case, then it doesnt apply.

I actually wrote it as a trained shooter, not a gamer.  I have been shooting since I was young, both competitively and recreationally and I KNOW how much training is needed to effectively handle a firearm.  A keyboard and mouse does NOT supply this training.

It was a general statement about the ridiculousness of some arguments.  The fact that you took offence is very telling.

Kate says:

02:28pm | 02/12/10

Well, you could argue that the consequence of shooting endless people in COD: Black Ops is “my girlfriend will get super annoyed that I’m always playing Xbox when she wants to watch 30 Rock, therefore she will mysteriously have headaches when I can finally put down the controls to engage in some good old-fashioned pre-marital sex”. The moral of the story being that people obsessed with indiscriminate shooting don’t often get laid.

That’s how we roll in my household anyway. BTW, my boyfriend is a huge COD fan and I don’t think he’s bothered playing Black Ops in any mode except the group one where you run around with your friends in different scenarios shooting people. I think that mode is more enjoyable?

Max says:

02:31pm | 02/12/10

Well you go on hating Black Ops, because if you think people buy Call of Duty to play the Singleplayer, you must be smoking something.

Besides the glaring time inconsistencies, the game is fun as. Totally worth the $80 I spent on it. Though slightly dissapointed when i found out later that I could get it even cheaper.

Smidgeling says:

03:03pm | 02/12/10

Zeta- from posts past I got the gist you are female. If so, I am in love.

If you are a guy, hilarious post.

Zeta says:

04:17pm | 02/12/10

@ Kate - My girlfriend does the same thing. You’re not my girlfriend are you?

@ Max - Sorry, the game is not fun. The game consists of running towards soldiers, shooting them, crouching, reloading, crouching, and some more crouching. If you believed the Call of Duty games, the secret to winning a modern war is to drill your soldiers in squats so they’re the most effective crouchers on the battlefield. The weapons are boring and ridiculous. How a flamethrower strapped to AK47 can fail to be engaging is a mystery on par with how a machine gun with a chainsaw strapped to it couldn’t save Gears of War from being consigned to the trade in bin.

How is it that soldiers in these games, who are so superhuman they merely need to crouch behind a barrel to heal multiple gunshot wounds, can only carry 2 guns, including a pistol. The FAMAS assault rifle might not have been invented in 1968 - but holsters were. And shoulder straps.

As for multiplayer, it pales compared to Modern Warfare 2, the scaling on XBox makes it look like the Wii version of Modern Warfare 2, and the PC version, while looking better in multiplayer is so open to hackers it’s unplayable. 

While the kids are playing COD, I’ll be playing Operation: Flashpoint and ArmA 2.

Kate says:

07:03pm | 02/12/10

@ Zeta - you do remind me of my boyfriend, but no, he goes by a different screen name.
I told him I’d learnt enough from watching him play Black Ops to comment with moderate intelligence on a blog post, and he was very proud.

Truth be told, I don’t mind that he spends like 70% of his free time on the Xbox. I can do my uni work without being distracted.

Zeta says:

02:16pm | 02/12/10

I hate World of Warcraft. I logged in because it looks different now, and I’m just rolling through an Alliance zone on my giant bear, killing lvl 3s, gettings pissed that there is no points for killing someone 77 levels below me any more - when BOOM, Deathwing appears, sets fire to everything.

I hate World of Warcraft, because I want to join Deathwing. He’s a cool bro that flies around setting fire to everything. I hate the Alliance, and I even have the care bears and lol cows in the Horde. I want to roll with the real bad guys and burn shit up. Deathwing and I should be bros, just rollin, burning down your quest givers, looting your corpses.

Instead I’ll end up having to find 25 other losers to go kill him with.

Fails.

Max says:

02:25pm | 02/12/10

This reminds me…

If you hate violent video games, but want to be a part of an awesome group of people, become a Holy/Discipline Priest. People will want you, you’ll get to do all the awesome raids, and no KILLING!

Isn’t it great?

(Once you go troll, you never re-roll)

G says:

03:02pm | 02/12/10

Gundrak anyone?

kodekkz says:

04:01pm | 02/12/10

rofl troll and horde both blow role a draenei mage

Brian says:

03:59pm | 02/12/10

To be fair, it does depend upon game and server. I regularly rack up such scores on Mount and Blade servers where absolute newcomers come, or there are many bots. Mainly bots, I must admit, as there are very, very few newcomers to Mount and Blade these days, more’s the pity. Apparently the guns are too cool.

iansand says:

06:21pm | 02/12/10

Western suburbs been there have you?

(Note cunning adoption of the vernacular)

Lee says:

05:53am | 03/12/10

Dont bring demographic into it dude- thats not cool

Peta says:

10:04am | 03/12/10

Thats is exactly paul, where are the parents as once again it seems the government has decided it knows better and wants to take away another decision from them.

I can’t beileve this is even an issue, have you seen some of the movies that have been released this decade I have played quite a few games and nothing compares to the brutality of some of these horror movies I have seen ” Hills have eyes” that movie is sick!

Bottom line nanny country ( in robot voice) Please government wrap us up in bubble wrap and keep as sheltered from having to use our brains to weigh up the positives and negatives of make decisions for oursleves.

Lee says:

10:24am | 03/12/10

I dont have a fat bum or pimples. I walk the dog everyday, have dinner at the table with my husband without TV and I am a gamer (female no less!). I play with friends and we chat and have a laugh. Dont try and fit all gamers into the one box of stereotypes.

Ryan says:

08:41am | 05/12/10

Oh you are so clever Holly!

LC says:

04:05pm | 03/01/11

Trying to sidestep debate rational debate through personal attacks on the opposition is a very clear sign of someone with nothing intelligent left to say.