I probably should be writing this under a different name.  I’m an Australian woman with a Lebanese Christian heritage, who grew up amidst an invisible social war of Lebanese Christian vs Lebanese Muslim – right here in Australia.  And I’m genuinely concerned about how Muslim people are represented.

Keysar Trad: Nice man, shame about how he justifies polygamy

Polygamy is a contentious topic, Islam is feared and misunderstood by non-believers.  So naturally, a perfect fit for a festival of dangerous ideas at last week’s Sydney Opera House Event.  And man did they find the perfect speaker.

Kayser Trad.  Nice enough.  What I’ve seen of him anyway.  I reserve all judgement of him, his practises, his beliefs.  I write this based purely on his performance that day.  His topic was ‘Polygamy and other Islamic Values are good for Australia’.

Now my knowledge of Islam comes from the experience I’ve personally had with Islamic friends and their families, from what I’ve seen on the news, heard from family and friends (of all creeds) and what my beautician tells me.  So I walked into this session with an open mind and a genuine desire to learn.  And I walked out missing the bottom half of my jaw, wanting to run to my Muslim friends, hug them and apologise for the shit they were unknowingly dropped in.

Basically, the Trad line is that some women just aren’t toey enough (my language, not his) after marriage. So to stop men from straying, and to ensure they keep their family commitments, it’s OK for him to take on another wife - as long as he has permission from his current wife.  It works well for the “other woman” too – because she is ensured the same respect, attention and lifestyle that his other wives have.  (I’m sure it’s complicated at first but they have up to four rounds of marriages to master the complexities).

Tell you the truth, I understand it. I have hormones, we all need a bit of action. And sure, some women may lose their libido after years of marriage.  And men have needs, even the married ones are human.  But as one man in the audience screamed out – perhaps the husband could try buying flowers, or do the washing up every now and again.

That may get ‘em some, without the hassle of organising another gift registry.  So up to this point, you know what, I get it.  It’s practical.  It’s consensual.  But man, it’s a dirty way of explaining such a holy doctrine. 

Is marriage just about sex for men?  Is that all that binds you?

But wait - it gets even better.

So if the woman’s sex drive is higher than that of her husband?  Can she take on another husband? No, says Trad. He reckons it’s for the woman’s own good anyway. Asked why a woman shouldn’t have multiple husbands, he said medical research had shown women who have multiple partners are more likely to get cervical cancer. 

Scare mongering, anyone? 

Right.  So now he’s totally lost me.  No explanation, mind you, no facts, no research. 

Had he said that women can’t have multiple husbands because they can’t handle more than one mother-in-law, I could go along with it.

Anyway, he goes on to say, that really, women just aren’t as sexual as men.  (Someone needs to buy him the Sex and the City Series on DVD, and fast).  And the clincher, if they are, the husband will have to perform to his wife’s sexual demands.

Now, if every man were able to do that, I wouldn’t have to see an ad for nasal spray on every billboard between Condell Park and the City. 
For argument’s sake, again, let’s say he’s right. 

Where’s the research that shows how many Muslims today practice polygamy?  In any Muslim or non-Muslim country?  Show me a modern Australian Muslim woman, and by modern I mean independent, self-sufficient and free to speak her mind, who has entered a polygamous marriage by choice.  Why aren’t these women brought forward to represent the feminist perspective?

Having some understanding of the Lebanese culture, may I present a possible explanation?  Could it be that polygamy was actually not even about sex? 

Perhaps, at a time when women didn’t work, and couldn’t provide for themselves, polygamy was allowed to ensure they could be taken care of. Say, if their husband died, or left them for whatever reason. Because every woman was to be cared for? 

Perhaps it’s because as far as my limited understanding of Islam goes – women are the heart, the life and the soul of the home and should always be treated as such?  And with the utmost respect?  Whaddya reckon? 

I want to understand your religion, I honestly do.  But the cancer line doesn’t wash with me – nor does the libido one. Does it wash with the female believers?  Because I ain’t ever met a Muslim man or woman, here or in Lebanon, that has exercised this option. 

I want to know why not. 

If it’s such a wonderful, relationship saving and honourable option worthy of consideration in Australia - why haven’t I met people who do it?
All I’m asking for is a more considered, backed up and relevant explanation.  I want to see that if it’s so good for women, then how was the feminist perspective considered and applied to this religious policy.  Surely you can’t have a policy for them, without their consultation?

Before Trad’s talk I was happy to be convinced that polygamy is good for Australia, and still am, if you can show me how good it has been for your own subscribers, from both the male and female perspective. 

I’m not mad.  I don’t even think that this topic is that dangerous.

Trad’s might be a fine theory, but this poorly-articulated - now that’s dangerous.

Don’t miss: Get The Punch in your inbox every day

88 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • watto says:

      06:25am | 08/10/09

      Debating ancient ideas from medieval religons hardly takes humans forward. Why don’t you put up a dangerous progressive idea Marie rather than reacting to a backward one?

    • watto says:

      06:25am | 08/10/09

      Debating ancient ideas from medieval religons hardly takes humans forward. Why don’t you put up a dangerous progressive idea Marie rather than reacting to a backward one?

    • Hot for Marie says:

      07:11am | 08/10/09

      Luv your article but I’m afraid I was too distracted - Marie Najjar is a good lookin babe - when is she going to feature as a page 3 girl - I’m a lebo christian too - I may have to take a cold shower to settle down

    • Eric says:

      07:16am | 08/10/09

      If gay marriage is okay, why not polygamy?

    • John A Neve says:

      07:43am | 08/10/09

      Marie,
      Firstly male/female relationships have nothing to do with religion. Secondly, religion in all it’s forms is a man made farce. Our world would be a far, far better place without religion.

      Sex and love are not dependent on each other and never have been. An intimate relationship does not require marriage ( I use the term marriage in a generic sense) and a marriage doe not require sex.

      I know many couples who have had long loveing relationships, producing many fine children, who have never married and don’t want to. Equally, I have friends who have been married for years, sleep in seperate rooms have no children and are devoted to each other.

      Forget religion, polygamy and monogamy, replace them with equality, empathy, under standing and mutual respect. If you do you will have a much fuller and endureing family life.

    • Lexi says:

      07:46am | 08/10/09

      Different perspective from other commentaries on this issue, Marie - I enjoyed it smile 

      @Eric; last time I checked, there was no state in Australia in which same-sex marriage was legal.  IMO it should be, but it isn’t.  So your point is?

      Here’s a “dangerous” idea for K-Trad.  Why do Muslims need for this practice to be legal?  If it can be undertaken with Islamic religious endorsement, if under new NSW laws “mistresses” have the right to gain spousal support following the end of a relationship, if in the eyes of your social network/cultural community this practice is supported and accepted, why do you need the relationship to be recognised by one government department (Births, Deaths and Marriages)?

      Also, I don’t think men (or women) stray just because of sex or lack there of at home - I think it’s often more about the thrill of the chase.  But, I’m happy to be corrected on that one - seeing as I’ve never cheated, I’m just speculating!

    • hoofman says:

      08:02am | 08/10/09

      I agree. I have little problem with Trad’s point of view on polygamy for men (if there are people who really want such an arrangement), but he struggles to justify why it couldn’t also be OK for women to take multiple husbands. That’s when his position is revealed for what it is: a defence of a practice from another country and another time that is not suited to a modern secular democracy like Australia.

    • Liz says:

      08:02am | 08/10/09

      I should stick to listening to your beautician! Modern sexual mores are too complicated to delve into and way too sad and scarey.

    • Peter says:

      08:12am | 08/10/09

      The truth of the matter is that women, under Islam, are little more than baby-making machines whose role is to be completely subservient to their husband.

      There is an additional side effect: polygamy is good for low-status women and high-status men. 

      This leaves a residual pool of low-status men who - deprived of the opportunity of the civilising an moderating influences of family life - find their only outlet through violent jihad. 

      Thus the poor, the mentally ill, the unwanted all get swept up with the promise of doing something ‘significant’ with their lives - they might not have a wife on Earth, but 72 wives await them in Heaven…

      You want civility in the Islamic world?  First step is to abolish the disgraceful practice of polygamy.

    • Ben says:

      08:32am | 08/10/09

      Watto world religions like Islam aren’t medieval they are a lot older than that which doesn’t make their ideas any less relevant. In fact Islam and Christianity have been at the cutting edge intellectually for most of their histories. Give Marie a break - show me a progressive idea and I’ll show you its historic antecedents.
      Its good that Muslims and other Australians from the middle east are having these discussions as we want them to be part of Australian life.
      What’s so wrong with someone like Marie exploring the ideas behind religious doctrine from a contempory perspective? Its so much easier, but also lazier,  for people like just to dismiss things like the Neves of this world.

    • Marie Najjar says:

      08:50am | 08/10/09

      WOW, great comments and perspectives from everyone - thanks for taking the time to share.  Except for the dude that is probably in the shower as I type this (what the hell was that?).

      Peter, I don’t believe women are to be subservient to their men under Islam.  I actually believe it is a middle eastern cultural side affect that to be honest, has slowly died in the arse in recent times.  Sure, in some countries more than others.  But believe me, ‘subservience’ (I think that’s the wrong word, but I’m on a deadline, work with me) is not unique to Muslims!  I’ll speak only about the middle eastern country I know– Lebanon - Traditionally (ie yonks ago), the man was the ‘head’ of the home - he supports it, guides it, defines it.  The woman (muslim or otherwise), is the heart and what binds it together.  Without her, it falls apart.  So believe me, the woman is deeply valued, loved and respected, albeit the way it’s demonstrated or communicated makes for a very different interpretation from other cultural standpoints or perspectives.  Be it a western one, a modern day middle eastern one, or a feminist one.

      The views I’ve heard ‘on the street’ – through general community interaction – is that these ‘laws’ existed (mind you, rarely practised in modern societies) because at the TIME it was viewed as in the best interest of the woman.  To protect her.  Not to opress her.  The outcome, or perception of the outcome, is very different to the intention.  It’s rarely practised now, I believe.  And even if it were, it could only be practised with the express permission of the woman.  Which raises another point – if she’s subservient – would she feel empowered to say no or pressured to say yes?

      I went to this talk hoping I’d get clarity on this to be honest.  But instead, I got a talk about sex and libidos.  I was hoping the law would be put into the cultural context from whence it came!!  Without it, I think we have buckleys of ever understanding it.  And without understanding it, people will always have the wrong view or interpretation of Islam and its followers.  A real damn shame, if you ask me.

    • MKW says:

      09:00am | 08/10/09

      His explanation about why it’s not okay for women to do the same thing, is both sad & laughable.
      If I were an Australian Muslim, I’d really be hoping someone articulate, who didn’t have a dark ages / caveman view of women, came forward to lead the way for islam in this country. Otherwise, the most the negative stereotypes will perpetuate, and I’m sorry to say, perhaps rightly so.

    • james says:

      09:03am | 08/10/09

      4 cows? He must be mad. One cow is bad enough. Better still, just buy the milk in the supermarket. No cow, no moos, & no dungs.

    • Dani says:

      09:05am | 08/10/09

      Lexi, loved what you had to say. Just one question - can’t the point you made for polygamy equally be made for same-sex marriage? Ie, if they have the right to spousal support and are accepted by the community, why do they need it to be recognised by a Govt Department?
      At any rate, I agree with what Marie had to say and thought that the point was well expressed.

    • acker says:

      09:25am | 08/10/09

      I still get a giggle when I think about the day a slightly confused older “John Laws” talk back caller phoned in mistaking him (Keyser Trad) for being a supporter of the German World War 1… Keiser.

      It was absolutely friggin hilarious

    • bruce says:

      09:27am | 08/10/09

      it would be unfair to all the girls who miss out, if i were to keep myself for only one woman, and although most bloke as good in bed and as handsome as me, are conceited, im not. basically, im perfect.

    • Hartog says:

      09:38am | 08/10/09

      @Ben,
      There’s nothing intellectual about religion. As you said, they run on doctrines How intellectual is believing what you can’t see?

    • Brian B says:

      09:44am | 08/10/09

      Old foot-in-the-mouth Keystar does his cause no good at all.
      Under the “guidance” of ancient clerics, he continues to show his acceptance of middle aged attitudes towards women that treat them as chattels. They are downtrodden and have little say in any matter. Let’s tell it as it is.
      This culture is not acceptable in my Australia.

    • Terry says:

      09:48am | 08/10/09

      “...Islam is feared and misunderstood by non-believers”. Are you kidding? It is understood clearly. Christianity is understood by the massive amount of charity work it does. Islam is understood by the massive amount of abuse it does. There is no misunderstanding at all. Getting a bit sick of this approach as though just cause someone said it, it becomes the line to follow. So politically correct isn’t it? Islam is misunderstood! Oh yeah and the banks are misunderstood too. LOL.

    • Steve Smith says:

      09:51am | 08/10/09

      @Hartog,

      Your right.. I’m sick of people telling me I’m breathing Oxygen.. I’m supposed to be an intellectual, I can’t see it so I must not believe!!

    • Natasha says:

      09:53am | 08/10/09

      I really enjoyed your article Marie.  It was humourous, informative and importantly didn’t denigrate Islam and Muslims generally.

      Unfortunately, as is usual here on the Punch, the comments jumped straight-away into typical Islam-bashing.

      This may be a news flash to some people, but polygamy isn’t solely an Islamic practice.  I suggest you guys google “polygamy”, “christianity” and possibly “utah” and see what you get.  Or you could try polygamy.com.

      I agree that gender-specific polygamy is completely hypocritical and yes Keysar Trad is clearly a moron, but that doesn’t mean that all Muslims believe the same things that he does.  I get sick and tired of saying this, but just like all other religions, there are extreme followers, lax followers and everyone else.  I know heaps of Muslims and yet have personally never met one that advocates polygamy.  Just like the Bible, the Torah and the Gita (and probably others), the Quran has some stuff that is just wrong and clearly makes no sense in this modern world.  That doesn’t mean all the stuff in it.  All these “religious guides” have good and bad stuff in it.

      But I’m sure all you Islam-bashers will continue to ignore the wrongs of every other religion because hey Muslims are just such an easy target aren’t they?

      Islamic history cites a lot of economic reasons for the 4-wives rule.  I’m not saying I agree with it because I am completely against gender-specific polygamy.  I’m just saying that Trad’s an idiot and clearly uneducated on his own religion.  Marie you are spot on.

    • MM says:

      10:13am | 08/10/09

      You make some good points Natasha. I’m friends with Muslims, who certainly don’t believe in the dribble pouring out from Trad.
      However, there are so many horror stories regarding the treatment of women is Islamic culture, here in Australia, but especially abroad, that I think it begins to wear even the most open minded person down.
      I for one, feel sick at the plight of women in countries like Afganistan, Sudi Arabia, Pakistan etc. It’s truly horrific what they are subjected to, and it’s all being done in the name of Islam,
      Where are the muslims, here or overseas, standing up for these women??? Shouting and proclaiming for the rights of these women???
      Where are the fair and balanced muslims in australia, to reject moronic comments like those from trad?????
      Until we have those, Muslims will sadly be pigeon holed into these rather ugly stereotypes.

    • eddie says:

      10:22am | 08/10/09

      @Ben, The muslim religion is actually medieval Ben, it only came about in the 9th century and was started by Mohammed.
      It uses the same creation myth that the Jews and Christians ahdere to whith a few nice little rules added in. The Arabs of the arabs of the time were not likley to adopt the religion of the crusaders that were indicrminatley massacering everyone in sight in their area at the time and they weren’t keen on taking on the religion of the townie Jews of the day either, though at that strage they (the Jews and Arabs) proably got on ok as they were both the targets of the bloodthirsy chrisitian horde from the west.

    • BB says:

      10:24am | 08/10/09

      re: Ben says:09:32am 08/10/09

      Western intellectual tradition was derived from ancient Greece. Christianity is essentially a Greek creation.  It is a hybrid of many eastern beliefs including Hinduism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism with a great deal of ancient Egyptian mythology. It has few antecedents in Judaism. Islam is essentially a fusion of Christianity, Judaism and traditional Semitic beliefs.

      Islam hasn’t contributed anything significant to intellectual or technological development since the 12th century.

      Modern western intellectual development and the industrial revolution is due mostly to 18th century radical protestant free thinkers such as Hume and Smith.

    • Dan says:

      10:25am | 08/10/09

      ‘I probably should be writing this under a different name.  I’m an Australian woman with a Lebanese Christian heritage, who grew up amidst an invisible social war of Lebanese Christian vs Lebanese Muslim – right here in Australia.’
      Your first paragraph says it all. Why are you worried about putting your name to this article? This is Australia, allegedly a free country with freedom of speech. A melting pot of cultures all bound together by a love of freedom and integration….Well at least that’s what most of us love about it, but then I suppose there are always people who think they should get special treatment and that the rules shouldn’t apply to them.

    • Natasha says:

      11:03am | 08/10/09

      There are fair and balanced Muslim men and women everywhere but seriously you guys, who’s going to give them oxygen?  Let’s face it, Keysar Trad and other crazy fundamentalist Muslims make good news stories.  You average everyday Muslim does not.

      In my experience, the average Australian Muslim is just getting on with everyday life just like the average Australian Christian.  I don’t see the call for all the normal Christians and Hindus and Jews to speak out and yet there are always these calls for the normal Muslims to speak out.

      Most of the Muslims I know are young Gen-Xers who have been born and raised in Australia their entire lives.  They spent their childhood not having to defend their beliefs only to be constantly besieged over the last decade by Islamic-bashing in their own country.

      There is evil stuff happening to women in the name of all types of religion all over the world - not just in Islamic countries.  Hindus in India are still abusing widows in the name of Islam and Mormons in America are still marrying off underage girls (polygamy + paedophilia).  Everyday Christians in America are blowing up abortion-clinics in the name of God.  But again it’s just not as sexy to bash them as it is to bash the fundo Muslims for their treatment of women.  (Not that I am suggesting all Hindus & Mormons/Christians are evil).

      MM unless you’re an atheist, I bet you that whatever religion you follow there will be some crazy out there doing something evil in the name of your religion both here in Australia and overseas.  What are you doing to stop them from using your religion as an excuse for abuse?

      Abusing women is certainly not confined to one religion or one region.  It’s wrong wherever it happens and there are women’s organisations out there on the ground fighting this.

    • S says:

      11:05am | 08/10/09

      Thank you Dan and thank you Marie. I wanted to write something in response to Mr Trad, but admittedly I was too scared. Because unfortunately, there are some Muslims who react a little too heatedly to criticism. Watch any TV show, see a newspaper comic strip and you will see Christianity and even Judaism mocked and no one ever reacts - but yes, our melting pot of freedom and integration lacks some members of a particular group who are all about taking concessions while giving nothing in return. Heck, our police couldnt even search a particular Islamic home during Ramadan without getting bashed and being subjected to riots outside their station. We should not be fearful of speaking our minds in Australia out of fear of being subjected to violence or riots - especially on account of things like a christian wearing a cross in Saudi Arabia would be executed. Where is the tolerance that we practice here, over there?

      Mr Trad seems to be wanting a lot of things from this country, without making anything in return. He is an outdated voice for a beautiful religion and group of people. The subsequent wives in the polygamous marriages of Islamic men in Australia are entitled to legal rights because they are recognised as defactos, and this is where the line should be drawn. A true member of the Islamic faith, who practices as the religion is truly preached, will accept this and be thankful. There are reasons why people migrate to this country, and that is because it offered a better lifestyle. There is no reason why you cant be a true and good Muslim while still respecting the laws of this country. That means accept the fact that we A) dont have polygamous marriages and B) our police can inspect homes even on public holidays in the investigation of a crime. We don’t care what you wear or how you pray, we just want you to live and accept as we do. Either way, I dont know if I should be wasting my breath, because tomorrow, Mr Trad will appear on the news saying his speech was a ‘mistranslation’..even if it was made in English.

    • papachango says:

      11:37am | 08/10/09

      I appreciate that not all Australian Muslims share Keysar Trad’s views, but the author is right, they really need to get some decent spokespeople. They have a serious PR problem as it is and they do nothing but compound it with the likes of Sheik al-Hilali and now Keysar Trad.
      You rarely hear any Muslims voices expressing contrary opinions, is is it any suprise that we assume they are speaking for all Muslims?
      As for Keysar Trad, his racism and bigtory (as legally determined by an Australian court) aside, his arguments for polygamy are completely illogical given he doesn’t believe women should have the same right - the health risk agrument is pure bunkum. Somewhere else he claimed that polygamy should be allowed because blokes get killed more oftenI bet he doesn’t support same-sex marriages either, in fact I wonder what his attitude is towards homosexuality in general.
      @Natasha - yes there are some nutty Hindus and Christians too, but the relative proportion is tiny compared to the Muslim world, and mainstream Chrisitians are extremely quick to distance themslevs from loonies like the Westboro Baptist Church.
      Utimately Islam, Judaism and Christianity are not all that different (their holy texts have the same strories and the same dodgy bits that can be interpreted to justify horrible things) However, the fact is that Islam has serious problems with the way the faith is currently inrterpreted and practiced that it needs to sort out ASAP, for everyone’s sake. Christianity had similar problems in the Middle Ages, but fortunately there was the Reformation then the separation of church and state, the best thing that that ever happened to western civilisation. Islam needs to do the same, the world over. It can be done - just look at post Ottoman empire Turkey.

    • Nadia says:

      11:50am | 08/10/09

      Keysar Trad certainly doesn’t represent me, as a young Muslim woman, well at all. But noone is interested in my opinion, they are far more interested in a crazed, middle aged loony who is news headline worthy and cements the notion that all Muslims are psycho fanatics hellbent on destroying the fabric of Australian society.
      PLEASE don’t listen to this old fart and take his comments as an accurate depiction of Islam in Australia, just as I don’t listen to Kyle Sandilands, thinking him to be the sole and only voice of a middle class,white male.

    • Hiba R says:

      11:52am | 08/10/09

      re: Eddie. Dude, are you serious? Islam was not started in the 9th century, it began in the 4th! And it was not because of the crusades that Arabs converted to Islam!

      Marie - I loved this article! And I am the only person here who understood why you wrote that very first article. I am Lebanese Muslim, and when I saw your name with the corresponding article I was extremely intrigued to read it because I realised you would be writing from a very unique point of view (unless you were a Muslim Najjar with the Anglo name Marie, I assumed you would be Christian, which you confirmed straight away!).

      To add to what you said, Keysar Trad is an idiot. I never listen to him, so I don’t understand why anyone else does. He couldn’t explain that the reason polygamy could never be allowed for women is because women can get pregnant, and whilst we could probably DNA test the child now, you couldn’t do that in 4th century AD, could you?

      Also, part of the reason to ‘allow’ polygamy into Islamic law is that it was already very prevalent in Arabia during the Prophet’s time. Men used to have harems of 10-20 women and no one could stop them. The Prophet said you can only marry a maximum of four now. If you look at it closely, this rule, like most rules in the Quran, has it’s loopholes. It is IMPOSSIBLE to treat two, three or even four women exactly the same. This means you would have to give them each the same value house, same value furniture, same value everything (because in Islam, the husband is BOUND to financially support his wife and children) and on top of this, he would have to EQUALLY LOVE THEM and spend EQUAL TIME with them. It is practically impossible. Which is why, in one way, it can’t be done. Of course, the men who want to do it will ignore all this.

      I am sick of men like Trad and others who assume women have no sex drive. And also sick of other men who are thinking Islam disrespects women. I will tell you some facts about Islam and women, FYI:
      - a woman’s sexual needs are meant to be fulfilled before the man’s
      - a woman who is breastfeeding has the right to demand payment from the husband because she is giving up something of her own body
      - when a girl gets married, she is entitled to a dowry
      -  a man could pray and fast for years and years and he would not be rewarded as much as a woman who goes through childbirth just ONCE
      - if a woman dies in childbirth, she is considered a matyr
      - if a woman works, she is not required to spend any of that money on her husband or her children; in fact, it is her right and only hers.
      etc etc

      And finally, about the 72 virgins thing. It really annoys me, because I’ve read the bit in the Quran where it mentions it. It talks about the splendours of Heaven and how ONE example is that a man who goes to Heaven will be given 72 of these beautiful creatures (not quite human, though they may look it, but far more beautiful) and these 72 creatures will be created in his image of what he thinks is the most beautiful. Thus, because they have been created for him and only him, no one has ever seen them before, and some idiot must have made the conclusion here that they are virgins if no one has seen them before (let alone touched them). Ridiculous. They can’t be virgins if they’re not human.

    • Hiba R says:

      11:59am | 08/10/09

      @ S: “We don’t care what you wear or how you pray, we just want you to live and accept as we do.”

      Yep, I love that attitude, “you can do what you like, as long as you do it our way”.

      “...especially on account of things like a christian wearing a cross in Saudi Arabia would be executed. Where is the tolerance that we practice here, over there?”

      Who said that Muslims approve of that? Who said that Muslims are all from Saudi Arabia? WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING?

      This is the thing…Most of the people here who are talking about Islam and Muslims as if they understand everything there is to know about it, probably don’t have one single Muslim friend. You have probably never spoken to a Muslim in your life. So don’t sit there and act as if you know everything.

      “You rarely hear any Muslims voices expressing contrary opinions”.

      HAVE YOU EVER ASKED A MUSLIM WHAT THEY THINK?!?!

    • Gen X says:

      12:06pm | 08/10/09

      As a woman, I’m glad to live here, because I’m free to sleep with as many men / women as I want (if I choose to).  I’m free to marry or divorce (if I choose to).  I can live in a defacto relationship (if I choose to).

      If Trad doesn’t like free spiritied, independent women, I suggest he should bugger off.

    • MARK says:

      12:17pm | 08/10/09

      Ignoring all the random Chatter.

      In the early days Islam needed to expand and populate. If a man can have 10 kids from a single marriage. Why not 40. (And that 40 can have another 1600.)

      That is all there is to it. Clear and simple.
      I doubt Mohammad and his followers. (All men) Were sitting there thinking “how can we help women with low libido or cervical cancer”

    • Dan says:

      12:21pm | 08/10/09

      Hiba R, your 2 posts are both wonderful and should be mandatory reading for fools like Peter and eddie as well as Terry and BB who don’t know the first thing about Islam and the amazing things it has done, such as for women! Brilliant! Reasoned, elegant and it proves how prejudiced and ignorant some people on this blog really are!

    • Dan says:

      12:24pm | 08/10/09

      MARK, do your research. Muhammad had plenty of female followers. The first Islamic convert, for example, was female; Khadijah bint Khuwaylid.

    • KW says:

      12:25pm | 08/10/09

      Hiba R,
      It’s voices like yours that could do tremendous good for muslim relationships/perceptions in this country. Good on you.

    • watto says:

      12:25pm | 08/10/09

      @ben Actually I’ve just been reading an interesting ‘new-ish’ idea/concept at emergent-culture.com . The title is, Judeo-Christian-Islamic Apocalyptic Themes and trends towards war and self-destruction. Bit more thought provoking than polygamy perhaps?

    • SM says:

      12:37pm | 08/10/09

      Mr Trad has always been a deceptive and dishonest apologist for the people he represents. 

      He’s now moved on from absurdly defending Sheik El Hilaly (sic), the former mufti, regarding some of the barbaric comments that fellow made regarding women.  Here’s one such statement, regarding the connection between the type of clothing that should worn by women, and sexual assault…

      “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.”

      Now Mr Trad has let his guard of deception and dishonesty slip - and has broadcast his own views.

      All they do is further highlight the very simple fact that there is a large proportion of Muslims who’s views regarding women in general are totally at odds with those of Australia, and indeed all non muslim nations.

    • Marie Najjar says:

      12:39pm | 08/10/09

      Hiba R - So well said and beautfiully put.  Please speak up - Always!

    • Carl Palmer says:

      12:40pm | 08/10/09

      Oh dear, please get this joker away from the Opera House and put him on a boat – which are within a stones throw from the OH and head him off to London. Then, find him a permanent spot in the north-east corner of Hyde Park where he can be with his other loony and “intellectual” friends

    • m says:

      12:45pm | 08/10/09

      well said gen x!!!
      with you a 100%

    • Hmmm says:

      12:53pm | 08/10/09

      “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.”

      I always found it funny in this comment - (not that the horrific gang rapes of anglo women by muslims in particular were any laughing matter) - that he basically describes muslims men as being, essentially, animals. If I were an intelligent muslim man, I’d take issue with this comment as much as any woman.

    • papachango says:

      01:01pm | 08/10/09

      @MARK your logic is faulty. Having multiple wives won’t change the population growth, the driving factor is the total number of women, not whether there are a few of them married to the same bloke. If every bloke had 4 wives, 3 would miss out, assuming 50:50 men-women split. I’m sure the early Muslim knew that, they weren’t stupid.
      Who knows the reason they endorse polygamy, just another example of religious nuttiness lost in the mists of time.

    • Ben says:

      01:04pm | 08/10/09

      Watto that site is certainly provoking but not of thought.  If you think that a young woman exploring contentious cultural themes that impact both in the Muslim and wider community is not interesting that’s your problem.
      If you’d rather read the same tired old utopian pseudo intellectual claptrap about the book of revelations, US imperialism etc etc then you’d be better off reading Dan Brown!

    • S says:

      01:20pm | 08/10/09

      Hiba, when I read your post I was like, wow! Finally, a good Muslim voice. Then you misread my own opinion and jumped to conclusions about what i was saying. As a matter of fact Hiba, I have three Muslim friends, two of whom wear the Hijab. They are all lebanese and I dont see them to be different to any of my other friends. Because I really dont care what they wear or how they pray, and that is entirely different to “you can do what you like so long as you do it our way”. Because there is no “our way” in Australia, because our way could go mean getting pissed at the pub, or swimming in a bikini at Bondi, or it could mean going to a Church, temple or Mosque. What I meant by “we want you to live and accept as we do” is to obey the law - and I was referring to the issue of police getting bashed for wanting to search a home during ramadan.

      Furthermore, I am actually writing a masters thesis on how Muslims are represented in the media, arguing that they are not all the same and often its all about what makes a good news story that earns them a particular ‘unAustralian’ reputation.

      You are right about Saudi Arabia, that doesnt mean anything where all Muslims are concerned, but once again, it was an example of tolerance to people like keysar trad who expect all these changes to be made for them here without considering the fact that in some muslim countries, those changes would not be made for non-muslims.

      And finally, yes, I have heard Muslims expressing what they think because contrry to what you assumed of me, I do have muslim friends. However, they are not encouraged to speak up the way that you have because some people like Keysar Trad are taking the spotlight.

      It is upto people like you to gather similar thinking people to make a stand. And I would be willing to support your actions no matter what. If only you didnt make assumptions about who I am and where I am coming from.

      Apart from that, you raised some excellent points and you are the case in point that you can still be a practising Muslim AND an Australian.

    • Ange says:

      01:20pm | 08/10/09

      Polygamy was also in pre communist China. I would think it was for the same reasons as why it was prominent in Islam, to improve the status of men and to ensure that women were ‘looked after’. In a modern society though there really isn’t any practical reason for it, certainly not in Australian society anyway. Fundamentalists like Trad seem to be more interested in keeping traditon for traditions sake. You don’t see women practicing polygamy and having several husbands so it just seems like a practice to keep women subservient and dependant on men.

      There needs to be some sort of forum for Muslim people to have their veiws expressed, not that they should have to defend themselves against fundametalists like Trad and al Hilali, but so that they may educate “Anglo” Australians on their culture and to build an understanding and hopefully mutual respect. White Australia is fearful of what they don’t understand, it was the same when the Italians and Greeks and Chinese migrated here and unfortunately because of the racist undertones of Australian society it will continue to happen…

    • K says:

      01:47pm | 08/10/09

      Ange, I find it truly amazing when people like you label australian society racist.
      I’ve travelled extensively, and this place is a multicultural paradise compared to cultrural/racial and other apprehensive divides overseas!
      It’s truly fascinating to me when people say this. Attack individual bigots all you like. But labelling Australian society racist, makes me wonder why australia is widely deemed as one of the most liveable places on earth (or second only to norway in one recent study)

    • watto says:

      02:30pm | 08/10/09

      tee hee @ben Then could we agree that holding a hillbilly conference in Tasmania or Utah might be more dangerous, thrillseeker? Let’s go for the big ideas.

    • Anna says:

      02:45pm | 08/10/09

      Polygamy should not be encouraged in Australia.  As someone who used to work at Centrelink I regularly saw Muslim clients who had more than one wife.  These other wives (2nd, 3rd etc) would apply for the Sole Parent Pension. It was a total scam and it meant that suckers like you and me were paying to help these guys support their lifestyle choice.
      If people choose to live in that lifestyle and fund it themselves then I wouldn’t care.  But I’m not paying so some guy can have lots of wives and children at my expense.

    • watto says:

      02:52pm | 08/10/09

      ok, ok I will share my big idea. What about a crazy experiment where Christians and Muslims took a backseat on the planet for 40 years? (It’s as valid as the short-history-of-Australia Anglo polygamy argument right?)

    • JJ says:

      03:08pm | 08/10/09

      Heyy Marie great article very interseting.
      Can someone more educated than me please inform me if this information holds any truth.  I’m just asking? I know its Wikipedia, but I just want to be informed. You guys seem to know quite a lot and this is the source of the law. So might as well start here.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad’s_wives

    • Daniel says:

      03:18pm | 08/10/09

      I think if this guy Trad wants more than 1 wife he should go back to where this is legal not bring middle east laws here to this peaceful nation. Trad get real mate.

    • Ange says:

      03:34pm | 08/10/09

      K, I would be guessing then that you are “Anglo"Australian. I’m Chinese Australian and when I was a kid I copped the racism first hand. I don’t have people coming up to me calling me a “ching chong chinaman” and doing their squinty eyes at me anymore BUT have a look at all the facebook groups and peoples comments on news websites etc demanding that immigrants assimilate or get out. It’s not in your face but there is an undertone. People fear what they don’t understand and those that are different. I’m not saying that Australia is the only country that is like that and I’m definitely not saying that Australia is the worst but it’s there.

    • K says:

      03:49pm | 08/10/09

      @Ange
      I’m half Anglo, half French for the record. My closest circle of friends include people of Lebanese, Greek, Cambodian, Italian, and Egyptian descent.
      I went through multiculural schools and loved it.
      Regardless of my family tree, to me your sentence:
      “White Australia is fearful of what they don’t understand, it was the same when the Italians and Greeks and Chinese migrated here and unfortunately because of the racist undertones of Australian society it will continue to happen”
      - Is racist itself. 
      I’m genuinely sorry you were taunted. That’s completely unacceptable, and those who did it are reprehensible.
      But perhaps don’t make racist statements yourself in trying to make your point. You’re just perpetuating the cycle.

    • Ben says:

      04:12pm | 08/10/09

      The other cool thing about Maire’s article was her reference to what she describes as an ‘invisible’ intra Middle Eastern community dispute about Christianity vs Islam. Most Australians don’t understand what I will simplisticallty refer to as ‘that bit’ of the picture.
      There are people from a variety of faiths from the Middle East living in Australia.
      I recently a great article about Rafik Hariri his assassination and his friendship with the head of the Druze community.
      It would be great if Marie could do something on that tension in the Australian Middle Eastern community.

    • Greg says:

      04:22pm | 08/10/09

      Whats the big deal? We finally allowed gay marriages, gay adoption rights.  I think we should allow multiple marriage partners as well, wheather a women want 3 husbands or a man wants 3 wives or a man wants 3 husbands, etc. etc. Even 2 women want 3 men. It all should be allowed. How can you stop a man or a women from the basics of letting them practise thier religion or sexual orientation? Its should be a fundamental freedom. To me if Islams leader had multiple wives it would be remise for Australia to stop them from basically doing what Mohammad did. We dotn stop Christians for practising what Jesus did.  We shouldnt consider ourselves as a Christian nations because even if the Westminister system is based of a Judeo - Christian ethics it fairly clear that most people in Australia no longer value of think that this is relevant for today. Australia should stop living in the past and embrace other cultures are religions.

    • Ben says:

      04:29pm | 08/10/09

      Hartog once of your earlier namesakes Dirk Hartog believed in what he couldn’t see, which is why he ended up being one of the first Europeans to explore the coast of western Australia.
      To even ask what is intellectual about believing in what you can’t see is unscientific. How do you think science actually works? If people didn’t have didn’t have a theory or a curiousity (which is basically a belief that something is there to be discovered ) science wouldn’t exist. Many scientists have been Christians and Muslims and members of other world religions.
      BB, I think your comments about Christianity having no antecedents in Judaism are specious - theologians will tell you that the whole Jesus narrative is self consiously in the context of the Hebrew prophet’s ongoing converstation with God (to put it simplistically).
      To put the whole of Enlightenment liberal philosophy down to two Smith and Hume is nuts!

    • BB says:

      10:37pm | 08/10/09

      re: Hiba R says:

      12:52pm | 08/10/09

      Islam doesn’t date from the 4th century at all. Islam dates from 622 AD when Mohammed made a pilgrimage to Mecca. You claim to be a Muslim but you are unaware of this basic fact. Your claims about the rights of women in Islam are also utter nonsense. The Qu’ran is full of anti-female verses:

      # Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 2:223

      # A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282

      # “Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four.” 4:3

      # Males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11

      # Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15

      # Instructions for exchanging wives 4:20

      # You can’t have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). 4:24

      # Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34

      # Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. 4:98

      # A man cannot treat his wives fairly. 4:129

      # Men and women are enemies! 7:24

      # “The guile of you women ... is very great.” 12:28

      # You don’t have to be modest around your wives or your slave girls “that your right hand possess.” 23:6

      # A husband can accuse his wife of adultery with only one witness. 24:6

      # Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31

      # The wives of Muhammad will be punished double for lewdness. (And that is easy for Allah.) 33:30

      # The wives of Muhammad are not like other women. They must not leave their houses. 33:32-33

      # When Allah or Muhammad decide that a man and a woman should marry, they must marry. 33:36

      # Allah gave Zeyd to Muhammad in marriage. This was so that all Muslims would know that it’s OK to marry your adopted son’s ex-wife. 33:37

      # Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 33:50-51

      # If men must speak to Muhammad’s wives they must speak from behind a curtain. And no one must ever marry one of his wives. 33:53

      # But it’s OK for Muhammad’s wives to talk with certain people. 33:55

      # Women must cover themselves when in public. 33:59

      # Those who “did wrong” will go to hell, and their wives will go to hell with them (no matter how they behaved). 37:22-23

      # But the single-minded slaves of Allah will enjoy a Garden filled with lovely-eyed virgins. 37:40-48

      # Female companions await those who enter the Gardens of Eden on the Day of Reckoning. 38:52

      # Allah will reward faithful Muslims after they die with “fair ones with wide, lovely eyes.” 44:54

      # Allah will reward those in the Garden with beautiful wives with wide, lovely eyes. 52:20

      # Those who disbelieve in the afterlife give female names to angels. 53:27

      # Allah will give those in the Garden women of modest gaze whom neither man nor jinn have touched before them. 55:56

      # Allah will reward believing men with “fair ones” (beautiful women) in heaven. 55:71-72

      # Those in the Garden will be attended by immortal youths with wide, lovely eyes. 56:17-23

      # Allah made virgins to be lovers and friends to those on his right hand. 56:36-37

      # Your wives and children are your enemies. They are to you only a temptation. 64:14-15

      # Instructions for divorcing your wives. 65:1-6

      # Allah’s rules for divorcing wives that have not yet reached puberty. 65:4

      # Allah says it’s OK for Muhammad to have sex with any of his wives whenever he wants. 66:1

      # Muhammad’s wives need to be careful. If they criticize their husband, Allah will replace them with better ones. 66:5

      # You don’t have to be chaste around your wives or your slave girls. 70:29-30

    • Maryam says:

      10:43pm | 08/10/09

      I am a young Muslim woman who has lived in Australia my whole life. As soon as I heard this story my heart sank because I knew it would provide more fodder for idiots like terry and peter. when a christian does something bad, no one blames christianity, and its the same for all the other religions. just because a few people, who happen to be muslims, do things that are stupid and repugnant, doesnt mean its part of Islam…but duh, i thought that would be obvious

    • Nicholas James says:

      11:17pm | 08/10/09

      It really amazes me how many people here actually bother to engage in this discussion when they really don’t have any idea what they are talking about.

      I mean, do they realise they don’t know what they are talking about?

      I really enjoy this forum, I just wish there were less ignorant, racist comments on here.

      Islam has had a absolutely massive impact across the entire world for over a thousand years.  Something that has so shaped man kind is certainly worth discussing…

      Honestly, it just seems like people make stuff up to push an agenda.

    • hoofman says:

      08:29am | 09/10/09

      @BB - have you done a similar trawl through The Bible looking for equivalent quotes? Point being, both books are ancient and do not reflect modern values.

      Here is just a couple to help you:

      If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn’t cry out loud enough, then “the men of the city shall stone her to death.” (Deuteronomy)

      Paul points out in New Testament that “the natural use” of women is to provide men with sex. (Romans)

      And of course, women still cannot be priests in some Christian denominations, so not everything has changed.

    • JK says:

      08:30am | 09/10/09

      Are those lines from BB for real?!??!!?
      If so, that’s downright disturbing.

    • Lachlan says:

      08:50am | 09/10/09

      Marie, what a great article. Please write more!

    • paul says:

      09:03am | 09/10/09

      @nicholas Sounds like you are being a bit uptight and precious. Australia has historically been polygamist for thousands of years, even before Islam was invented or co-opted from some other mythology. Aboriginal ‘Australia’, had beliefs and an advanced lifestyle that allowed stewardship of this unforgiving yet abundant land for the longest time.  Something that I doubt Muslims and Christians will be able to boast. Or learn from.

    • paul says:

      09:03am | 09/10/09

      @nicholas Sounds like you are being a bit uptight and precious. Australia has historically been polygamist for thousands of years, even before Islam was invented or co-opted from some other mythology. Aboriginal ‘Australia’, had beliefs and an advanced lifestyle that allowed stewardship of this unforgiving yet abundant land for the longest time.  Something that I doubt Muslims and Christians will be able to boast. Or learn from.

    • paul says:

      09:03am | 09/10/09

      @nicholas Sounds like you are being a bit uptight and precious. Australia has historically been polygamist for thousands of years, even before Islam was invented or co-opted from some other mythology. Aboriginal ‘Australia’, had beliefs and an advanced lifestyle that allowed stewardship of this unforgiving yet abundant land for the longest time.  Something that I doubt Muslims and Christians will be able to boast. Or learn from.

    • Greg says:

      09:37am | 09/10/09

      BB

      That is amazing, I had know idea that the Koran said all those things. It amazing stuff whilst we are all called to accept Islam. Islam it self denies women rights and from what I have heard other religons rights.  So the conundrum is do we allow Islam to florish as we let it do only to grow to such a point that we become like an Islamic nation which clamps down of womens rights and religious right. 

      I previously thought that as Australians we should allow Islamic schools, mosques to grow but after looking at nations with large islamic populations or they are a majority. I see that human rights, womens rights, religious rights and basic rights of the individual are all erroded by Islam. I cannot see where Islam and wetsern democracies can co exist.

    • Concerned says:

      10:20am | 09/10/09

      Well said Greg. The ‘live and let live’ that allows islam to flourish in western states (Look at the issues in the uk?!?!) is not Reciprocated by Islamic nations, or unfortunately, by some smaller Islamic communties within countries like our own.
      So where does it all lead?

    • Hus says:

      10:42am | 09/10/09

      Marie, The quran states you can “marry 2 , 3 or 4 BUT if you can not treat them equally then marry only one. ” Now tell me which man can distribute his love, time, money equally. Islam is the only religion that state to MARRY ONLY ONE.
      I believe every rule has a reasons. I believe every home has different situations. So you can not judge this matter in general.

    • RT says:

      10:45am | 09/10/09

      @JK and Greg - please refer to Hoofman’s response to BB 9:29am today. Greg, if you are consistent in your beliefs you should also be concerned about the proliferation of christian schools because of some of the statements in The Bible that debase women’s rights and generally promote intolerance. But maybe you are a religious bigot.

    • Ange says:

      11:03am | 09/10/09

      @ Greg & Concerned read Hoofman’s post. There is rape, murder and incest in the Bible too should we clamp down on Christianity also? The Qoran and the Bible and all other holy books are open to interpretation that’s why there are many different factions within the one overarching religion. Those who want to push their own agend will be able to find and interpret whatever they wish from their chosen holy text.

      @K, like I said have a look at peoples comments especially with this whole Hey Hey debacle and tell me again that you don’t think there’s a racist undertone in Australia. Aussies can’t even put themselves in someone else’s shoes and feel empathy for them when they’ve been offended. I’m not making a racist statement I’m generalising, I know that a lot of people are not like that but there shouldn’t be that sort of disrespect for others at all.

    • K says:

      11:37am | 09/10/09

      “Aussies can’t even put themselves in someone else’s shoes and feel empathy for them”
      Well as an ‘Aussie’, and a proud one at that, I find this comment not simply generalising, but racist.
      What an idiotic thing to say. Did you know that per capita, Aussies raised more for the devasting Tsumani effort than anywhere else? No empathy huh?? You are as racist as any other Ange.
      If I generalised a nationality exactly the same way you did, with the same words, you’d describe me as racist without a second thought. You’re just as bad as the people you’re referring to Ange!!
      Meanwhile, I’ll go back to my friends and extended family, who have a vast variety of different backgrounds, and appreciate them for not stereotyping a whole country the way people like you do.

    • Greg says:

      11:38am | 09/10/09

      Im not concerned about the whole Islam is taking over Australia,its just plain rubbish. But I actually think that its a real worry that any nation that has a majority Islamic state is a shocker. Im not being a bigot when I say this look at any nation that is a nation of Islam. the funny thing is alot of people who come to Australia come here to flee the Islamic state they have been subjected to and I welcome them .I welcome any person from any religion, race of philosphy into Australia. Migrants are part of the very fabric of Australian society.  I think Islam as well has a really important part of Australian culture but what the people I know who are muslism and what alot of the clerics are sayign seemed to be different. Whilst leader slike Trad, and certain cleric state some really weird things it seems that the people, follwers, almost dislike them more than us. And cringe ever time they get up to speak. Like wise what is said from major cleric from out side of the West they preach a very different Isalm to what is preached inside Western countries

      Its like there is 2 faces of Islam and everybody is having trouble working out, which is the true face. Or is it a moderate sect and hard line sect, but where is the division and what point make you what.

    • Greg says:

      12:05pm | 09/10/09

      But im not saying that we should ban the Koran but I see what BB has written and what I have seen is Islamic countries there is some systemic problems with the Koran and human rights, women rights and relgious rigths.

      RT you are probably right we need also to see what is taught in Christian schools if that too debases women and human rights.

      On the opposite I have a look at supposedly Christian countries ( e.g UK, USA, Australia, Italy) whilst still have thier problems all in all you are pretty free to do what ever you want. Or even more secular countries Sweden, Norway and its the same.

      Ask yourself am I free to stand on the corner in Tehran and preach buddism, christianity etc. see what happens Id give you 30 seconds before you where arrested and deported.

      Go to London and you will see people from all walks, all religions preaching every thing.  Because it is your right to do so as a free citizen of the country.

      And for the record there should be seperation from the state and the church. Im rather amused / disgusted that as soon as I start commenting and discussing the abused suffered under Islam by women in other countries im a relgious bigot.  Im just saying how it is.

    • Keith says:

      12:43pm | 09/10/09

      Ah Marie, mon ami, your are indeed a woman of great feeling and consequence, truly encompasing women’s concerns regardless of religion, race, and in my opinion, the ever increasing domination by men over women under the guise of religion, sadly of historical significance, since the metaphor of Adam and Eve; and so should you, without fear or favour. @ RT, sir, I would be most appreciative if your splendid intellect could control itself from refraining from such a phrase (2 words?) as “religious bigot”, in your balanced comment. It’s unworthy, thankyou. There are more subtle ways to form an opinion, I’m certain you’ll agree.

    • RT says:

      12:46pm | 09/10/09

      Greg - are you sure the freedom you mention in certain countries is because of religion? I’d argue that it’s despite religion. And there are Islam-dominated countries with reasonable levels of democracy - you would be unlikely to be arrested for preaching Christianity in Indonesia, Malaysia , Turkey and Pakistan for example.

    • Ange says:

      01:04pm | 09/10/09

      So you’ll berate me for generalising about Australians but others generalise about Islam and it’s ok?

      You haven’t walked in my shoes either but you’ll call me racist for commenting on what I observe going on in our country?

      My friends and family are from all different backgrounds too, and we respect each other for who we are and we get along just fine. Just because you surround yourself with people who are respectful doesn’t mean that others aren’t. Racism in this country is alive and kicking and perhaps instead of arguing semantics with me we can acknowlegde that it’s happening and do something about it…

    • K says:

      01:59pm | 09/10/09

      @Ange,
      At no point did I say people generalising about Islam is okay.
      If you have friends and family from an Anglo background, I sincerely hope you don’t accuse them of being racists who lack empathy, purely because they are anglo/white australians. Because that’s what you’ve done on this blog.
      And that is not ‘repecting each other for who we are’ at all.
      As I said in my original post, condemn individual bigots to your heart’s content, but labelling every anglo Australian racist, as you’ve done twice now, is compltely wrong, insulting, and offensive. I truly doubt we would have so many wonderful cultures wanting to live here if EVERY white australian was a racist.

    • Greg says:

      02:12pm | 09/10/09

      RT says:01:46pm | 09/10/09

      RT - you are probably right the western freedoms exists despite christianity,  We have seen what a Catholic state is like from the past.
      but that my point they still they exists.

      also you said ‘you would be unlikely to be arrested for preaching Christianity in Indonesia, Malaysia , Turkey and Pakistan for example. ‘

      I typed in preaching christianity in Turkey, Pakistan Indonesia etc etc

      Turkey   http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=24931&sec=23&cont=5

      Pakistan   http://www.christiansofiraq.com/pakistanFeb176.html

      Indonesia http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/191355.php

      didnt have the time to look to hard but there is a history of other religions being persecuted in these countries.

      Also check out voice of the martyrs   http://www.persecution.com.au/

      But even if all this is a lie and all made up these countries had never persecuted other peoples or religions that still leaves 95% of Muslism countries that do. 

      Islam has a place in Australias fabric but it needs to be a moderate one and one that can change an adapt to Australian culture. Like I believe that most Muslism do despite thier leaders.

    • pc says:

      02:28pm | 09/10/09

      Marie and Dan and Hiba R, thanks for one of the most interesting strands I have ever read at the punch. Without people like you, informed, relevant and genuine there would be no alternative understanding of Islam in Australia.  For too long there have been only/either the self serving nonsense of Mr Trad, or the uninterested and uninteresting Islamophobes. I hope that as time goes on we will hear more from people like you and less from those who usually steal the headlines. ( I suppose I should thank the punch too for bringing these usually unheard voices to the mainstream media, so thanks punch.)

    • Maryam says:

      02:41pm | 09/10/09

      @ BB,
      you obviously have no idea what is in the quran either because your attempt to convey verses from it was truly disgusting. dont talk about that which you know nothing about. no where in the quran does it say women are worth half that of a man,  and just like it is expected in any marriage, the couple can have sex anytime, and the rules are for divorcing, not HOW TO DIVOURCE YOUR WIFE. there are too many mistakes in your senseless email to correct, but its obvious you dont know anything about this anyway. I have read the quran so at least i know what i’m talking about

    • RT says:

      02:49pm | 09/10/09

      Greg, I looked at the first couple of links. It shows that there is some level of intolerance for Christianity in those countries but I still say you’d be unlikely to be arrested for preaching it there - You’d just be stupid, like you would be for preaching Islam at Cronulla beach or at a rugby league match.

    • Greg says:

      03:10pm | 09/10/09

      Yeah fair enough, i didnt really look at them .
      I had a look at voice of the martyrs web site but it wasnt really focused on Islam, it was more a Christian web site.

      But I take your point that a more moderate form of Islam is probably needed.

    • BB says:

      03:48pm | 09/10/09

      re: Maryam says: 03:41pm | 09/10/09

      You are deluded. The Qu’ran does say disgusting things about women - I even quoted the suras. Mohammed was a serial womaniser and had sex with children. These are indisputable facts you and other Muslims simply refuse to acknowledge.

    • Nimr Asadi says:

      05:29pm | 09/10/09

      Mind you Marie, the cold shower guy uttered what most concealed. Men judge women by their appearance, if Jennifer Hawkins wrote an article they would read it.
      Nice article, all religions are misrepresented, that’s because the leader is absent. There is no rep for God who is there to explain things. I know an imam who leads prayer at the mosque. I asked him why he doesn’t speak to the press, he said because they always misconstrue what is said.
      But in the case of Trad, the media quotes him verbatim, and I bet they get toey every time he speaks.

    • Adam says:

      01:41am | 10/10/09

      All these comments are proof positive that religion is man’s worst ever creation. I find both Christianity and Islam extremely offensive. Two archaic, backwards FAITHS that place complete and utter devotion in the supernatural. Over time Christianity has probably been the most sickening of the lot but in this day and age Islam has a lot to answer for. I always feel sad hearing a woman defend Islam given how morally & ethically repugnant that religion is towards women. Religion can and has brainwashed so many. Sure Christianity isn’t much better but Islam is real neanderthal stuff. Anyone that takes novels like the Bible or the Koran seriously should be locked up. Religion is the root of all evil.

    • paul says:

      04:24pm | 10/10/09

      I still don’t understand this racial or religious narcissism, or ignorance by Trad and others. If I went to a Muslim country and presented the hijab as a ‘dangerous’ idea I would expect to have my visa revoked. Arn’t you really debating whether polygamy is PC? I repeat Australia is historically a polygamist country.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Anthony Sharwood

Dementor doing a good job for sweden #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

Ukraine song pinches chord progression from The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony. Fo real #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

RT @GerardDaffy: @antsharwood all the talk over there is the grannies will win.they entered to get a church built,feelgood story

Anthony Sharwood

These peole insult my grandmothjer, who was born in minsk, belarus #sbseurovision

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

We don’t deserve this huge, exciting scientific project

We don’t deserve this huge, exciting scientific project

I’d like to be able to say that sharing the world’s largest radio telescope with South Africa…

Mining money talks the loudest in Australian politics

Mining money talks the loudest in Australian politics

When North Queensland Liberal MP George Christensen got the idea of launching a new political organisation…

Please enter your password

Please enter your password

Help! I’ve succumbed to a crippling modern illness that can strike at any moment. Symptoms include:…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

243 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter